Ashamed to confess this but I really don't understand

[!Fluffy!]

Like most ordinary people I don't really understand the economy, the fulfillment of my college Econ class requirement long ago notwithstanding.

I find money talk of any kind to be extremely boring and discussion of anything beyond my own bank account borders on the incomprehensible.

A few weeks ago a good friend on another forum asked me to watch G. Edward Griffin's Creature From Jekyll Island, and then to read The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude by Etienne de la Boetie.

Afterwards I became interested enough to browse Mr. Griffin's "Freedom Force International" website, and also the Mises website.

Now I find myself more confused than ever. Or perhaps I should say, becoming disillusioned and in danger of becoming enraged -- or deranged, lol.

I am beginning to think this isn't really even America anymore, that the formation of the FRB was the REAL end of this country, and that perhaps in the eyes of the men behind the curtain we are nothing more than sheeple, little ATM's churning out $$$ which will eventually be used to make our own shackles.

Before I plunge headlong into the abyss of conspiracy theories, I welcome the advice, information and opinions of others better informed.

Have we lost this country to collectivism -- by design (but not to accomplish the socialist utopia the "progressives" imagine)?

Is the push to globalism just the next step in the ongoing plan of these invisible "money trust" guys to force us all into subservience?

A quote from Woodrow Wilson: "Some of the biggest men in the U.S. in the fields of commerce and manufacturing know that there is a power so organized, so subtle, so complete, so pervasive that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

Is this even a "real" quote, and what does it mean??

Woodrow Wilson: “I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world - no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

Has this country's government in fact been usurped long ago? Have we all been duped for 96 years now?

[joel]

I don't know if there is a conspiracy. Maybe all those in charge of the Federal Reserve (the Board of Governors and such) are all part of a banking conspiracy to enslave us all. I don't know. But I do think the Federal Reserve should be abolished. Even if those who run it are well-intentioned, the problem is that its operation has caused us lots of inflation and destructive market bubbles and bursts.

There is a bill (HR 1207) that is gaining support in the House of Representatives. Last I heard it it had 109 co-sponsors so far. There is a campaign to get people to call their leaders and urge them to co-sponsor the bill and support it. The bill would authorize the Government Accountability Office to do a proper audit of the Federal Reserve System. I think this would be a very good thing, and something that I would think everyone could support, if only from the perspective of government transparency and accountability.

[Andius]

Like most ordinary people I don't really understand the economy, the fulfillment of my college Econ class requirement long ago notwithstanding.

Can't blame ya there, the field of economics, like any other academic discipline, is huge investment in lifetime to understand.


Afterwards I became interested enough to browse Mr. Griffin's "Freedom Force International" website, and also the Mises website.

The Mises Institute is an excellent source to learn Austrian Economics. They backup their arguments with sound scholarship, so they are definately a good site.

I can't say the same for Freedom Force International. They are more like the frickin cheerleaders of Lovers of Freedom. And a good deal of Griffin's articles are terribly thought off, take this writing for example:

http://www.freedom-force.org/freedom.cfm?fuseaction=activities

The ideology of the CFR is collectivism. Collectivists advocate controlled elections, controlled media, controlled education, the elimination of free speech, disarmament of the population, fiat money, a cartelized health-care system, military imperialism, and global government.

A strawman of collectivism if I ever heard one. This may be one way to understand collectivism, but the term is far more broader that what Griffin intends. Many Lovers of Freedom are so obsessed with advancing the cause of Individualism, that they blatantly refuse to see beyond their own narrow understanding of collectivism. True collectivism (Of the kind found in the societies of Arabia, Africa, Asia, and a few scant portions of Latinamerica and Eastern and Meditterreanean Europe) is having an emphasis on placing the group first. This means, your identity is derived from the group, what is good for all members of the group is what is paramount, and a whole list of things that are far from what people like Griffin would like to believe.

My point is, the articles of Mises are far more worthy and credible due to their scholarship orientation. Griffin though... is more of a crazed activist, who lets his heart get in the way of sound thinking, but I leave that you to decide.


Now I find myself more confused than ever. Or perhaps I should say, becoming disillusioned and in danger of becoming enraged -- or deranged, lol.

Try to keep your head cool. Even when I was filled with indignation on some of the things I learned, only to to discover that they are full of bogus (aka, Marxist Economics), you gotta keep your head straight, and get crackin in researching properly, and not leave this questions in permanent limbo.



I am beginning to think this isn't really even America anymore, that the formation of the FRB was the REAL end of this country, and that perhaps in the eyes of the men behind the curtain we are nothing more than sheeple, little ATM's churning out $$$ which will eventually be used to make our own shackles.

Despite the alarmist tones, again, keep your head cool. Hehehe.


Before I plunge headlong into the abyss of conspiracy theories, I welcome the advice, information and opinions of others better informed.

I put no stock in most conspiracy theories. The ones who usually advance them are nothing more than paranoid people, more interested in advancing some personal agenda, instead of having a commitment in truth. If there is a conspiracy, then they better cough up evidences for them. (Mind you that don't mean I dismiss them all completely, for example, since in the past, the CIA has disclosed documents that were once classified in the matters of planning coups, in this case, the one the made on my homeland of Guate in 1954)


Have we lost this country to collectivism -- by design (but not to accomplish the socialist utopia the "progressives" imagine)?

Well, it's more like, "the United States Government is trying to right all the wrongs that occur in U.S. society, and failing at it". I highly doubt they would attempt something as ludicrous as creating some "Utopia" of some sort. They aren't THAT dumb. :tongue:


Is the push to globalism just the next step in the ongoing plan of these invisible "money trust" guys to force us all into subservience?

Again, your becoming too alarmist again. Hehe. :ahem:


A quote from Woodrow Wilson: "Some of the biggest men in the U.S. in the fields of commerce and manufacturing know that there is a power so organized, so subtle, so complete, so pervasive that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

It is one of the gems Woodrow Wilson uttered in regards on Government Administration. (His intentions were good, but I wish I could say the same about the decisions he pulled though).


Is this even a "real" quote, and what does it mean??

He is referring at the administration of the State during his time. It is so deeply engrained in the rule of a nation, that challenging the status quo of it is a risky business. And in the context of Woodrow Wilson's presidency, he was referring at the difficulty of reformatting the State in his time. Woodrow Wilson had an approach in Government Administration in his way of dealing with things, and had great interest in making Government Administration more efficient, since he considered it too clunky and unresponsive in his time. (P.S. And to you self-righteous Libertarians or Anarcho-capitalists who have this uncontrollable urge to say, he is not fixing anything, since the State is inherentily evil, it won't work, blah blah blash, CAN IT! I GET IT :brood: , no need to forcibly cram this info of preaching about the Evils of the State, which is besides the point I am trying to make).

Wanna see for yourself? Try speaking against Wellfare State or Democracy in front of your average modern statesman/woman in the Western Nations, and you'll soon find out how deep into trouble you wil get. :uhoh:


Woodrow Wilson: “I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world - no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

Mmhh, I can't pint down on who exactly is he talking about here. It could either be the corporations that use the State to advance their own interests, or Statesmen themselves. But he does correctly lament on how a great nation such as the United States has to now resort to credit in order finance their projects (aka, they have no real money to spend, and that is pretty bad...)


Has this country's government in fact been usurped long ago? Have we all been duped for 96 years now?

Well, your average Austrian (economically) will say yes, because the United States of America, who once embraced and thrived in a Laissez-Fare economy,is now deeply trapped in the business cycles and public debt the moment the U.S. Government embraced Keynesian Economics. The duping would be that the United States government can solve all problems out there, when truth of the matter, they can't, they don't even have that possibility.

As for me. Meh, I would say that there is Kernel of Truth in regards in how the the U.S. public has been duped in some matters, but I can hardly warrant it in calling it a conspiracy (And even less so, considering how Republicans and Democrats are constantly at each other's throats in how to run the country, not exactly fertile ground for 96 year old conspiracy, hehe). It is more accurate to say, a blatant misunderstanding and wrong beliefs in how economics work, and have yielded poor results.

Spending a little time in getting re-educated in your basic Economics oughta be good as a start. Learn to discern who is giving the more proper argument out there, and of course, keep your head cool. :wink:

[Paintbucket]

I was reading the OP and thought of Zeitgeist. If you've never seen it, do take a look. It is to be taken at a grain of salt (And I cannot stress that enough, if you believe most of it you will be insanely paranoid. Even the author says to do your own research.), but worth a look. The whole point of it is really to just make you think a bit. I know it's not exactly a movie suggestion that will get me points, but that's cool.

As far as your post material however, Andius has a lot of good material for you in his post. While I do believe that the power of the Federal Government has gotten far too big and we are becoming much more collectivist, America is still far less collectivist than a lot of Europe. I do not think we have completely been beaten, there are several ways that the ship can be righted. The Republican party is essentially there for the taking, if they could ever get back to some of the things they promised about smaller government and such they could probably win some seats back in Congress and whatanot. We're not lost and you shouldn't panic, but we are sliding further. There's still time to fix it, it just has to be done.

[seanD]

Ron Paul is grilling Paul Volker about their administration's odd financial tactics, which gives indications that they are purposely trying to consolidate national authorities, unify financial entities, and deflate the US dollar. But what struck me the most was Paul's accusation that they were trying to create a "super" IMF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9WyTJjsfC0&feature=rec-HM-r2