How 'bout some advice on burial vs. cremation?

[Cow Poke]

I have, as Pastor, been asked a number of times about burial vs. cremation.

(Edit: (laughing) I had "creation" up there, instead of cremation - now THAT would be a debate!)

I'd like to hear your thoughts...

A) What does the Bible say about a particular message?
2) What does history tell us?
C) What would your preference be, and why?

The obvious factors...
cremation costs a lot less, and the "remains" are more mobile!
(I grew up in the North, but lived most of my life (so far) in Texas!)
I really don't know WHERE I want to be buried.
A geographical location is not really that important, because I "won't be here"!

The burial is, of course, more "traditional" today, and seems less ... um .. "hell-ish"

And, yes, I'm familiar that "burial" or disposal of remains throughout the world vary even to being put on a boat, being set on fire, and pushed off into the ocean.
There are burials at sea.

So, final point.. we're talking about a Christian burial (or disposal).

[mossrose]

I prefer cremation. Cost being a large factor. And also the creepiness (to me) of my body rotting makes me wish to be reduced to ash quickly.

And I realize that my body doesn't matter, and the God who created me from dust can create a new, glorified body for me from dust, which even burial reduces a person to.

Whatever happens to my cremains makes no difference to me. My family can do what they wish, as long as it's legal.

:teeth:

Scripturally, many Christians will say that burial is proscribed by scripture, but I don't see it. I read Hebrews where it talks about all those listed in chapter 11, sawn in half and tortured, etc., and we know from historical writings about those who were burned to death and eaten by lions and so on. And MY God can bring those bodies back together without any problems, so He can bring my ashes back together into my new body.

I'm good with cremation, yep.

[Cow Poke]

I prefer cremation. Cost being a large factor. And also the creepiness (to me) of my body rotting makes me wish to be reduced to ash quickly.

Quite honestly, I was a bit repulsed the first time somebody asked me about cremation, but... i started looking for a scriptural reference to support my belief, and it wasn't there...

I fully admit that SOMETIMES we get comfortable with a practice or tradition, only to find out its JUST THAT!

so... i'm no longer "repulsed" by the idea of cremation, and i'd say i was fairly neutral. Perhaps, in another few years, i'll be crematorially disposed to make ashes of myself! :smile: (in due time, of course)

[Thersites]

For a long time, the Catholic Church did not endorse cremation for the reason Mossy referenced: the idea that God would resuurect the body, and the mistaken idea that a cremated body could not be resurrected. Eventually, it came to light that we all pretty much turn back into dust after we die, cremated or not, so the taboo no longer stands. I think there are still some restrictions for what can be done with the ashes (I think that they're supposed to be buried or otherwise interred) out of respect for the body.

But that's just my impression. You, of course, are under no obligation to follow what the Catholic Church says, but I figured it might be worth bringing up :shrug:

[One Bad Pig]

If an Orthodox person gets cremated, they're generally denied an Orthodox burial (barring extenuating circumstances). IOW, we take it rather seriously. Cremation is inherently distainful of the body, and the practice is rooted in paganism. Why deliberately destroy what will one day be changed into an incorruptible body?

for further reading (http://www.3saints.com/cremation.html)

[mossrose]

When my Dad died in 1991, my Mom wasn't sold on cremation. But there was very little money, and because Dad was a veteran, his friends who were very active in the Legion told Mom that if Dad were cremated, the Legion would pay for a portion of the funeral costs, and the plot to place the "urn" with Dad's cremains, and the stone, in the Field of Honour.

As well, Mom was told that if she were cremated when she died, she would be able to have her cremains placed into the same plot, and the Legion would pay for her name to be added to the stone.

Mom had to only pay about $90 for the opening and closing of the plot. It was a huge financial incentive for her, and so that is what she did.

When Mom died last year, she was a bit reluctant before she died about the cremation, but at the end, she was fine with it, and so that's what we did.

It saved a LOT of money, and we are glad that is how it was done.

Mr. mossy is not convinced about cremation, but I have it in my will, so he HAS to do it if I die first. And he likes the lower-cost aspect of cremation.

[Cow Poke]

But that's just my impression. You, of course, are under no obligation to follow what the Catholic Church says, but I figured it might be worth bringing up :shrug:

Actually, i'm interested in hearing all viewpoints... and I had thought about the resurrected body aspect, but figured that was no big problem for God.... but I'm listening!

[Thersites]

If an Orthodox person gets cremated, they're generally denied an Orthodox burial (barring extenuating circumstances). IOW, we take it rather seriously. Cremation is inherently distainful of the body, and the practice is rooted in paganism. Why deliberately destroy what will one day be changed into an incorruptible body?

for further reading (http://www.3saints.com/cremation.html)

Probably one of the best arguments against cremation that I've heard (err, read). If not for, well, a number of reasons, I'd turn Orthodox right now :teeth:

[mossrose]

If an Orthodox person gets cremated, they're generally denied an Orthodox burial (barring extenuating circumstances). IOW, we take it rather seriously. Cremation is inherently distainful of the body, and the practice is rooted in paganism. Why deliberately destroy what will one day be changed into an incorruptible body?

for further reading (http://www.3saints.com/cremation.html)
So it is the "purposeful destruction" of the body that the EO is against? And the only thing that happens is that the person is denied Orthodox burial. What does that mean?

I guess I question regarding those who's bodies are destroyed in ways that might be construed as "purposeful destruction", although maybe the EO wouldn't consider these ways in that light; i.e. being eaten by sharks or torn apart by lions or burned or killed in an explosion, etc.

What is the EO view of those types of bodily disposal?

And, I don't quite understand why the EO would think that cremation is disdainful of the body, when the body is merely a vessel that carries the spiritual part of us. What difference does it make when a person is dead? The vessel goes to ruin anyway.

I would like to understand the EO position on this.

[Thersites]

When you cremate, you're burning God in effigy :rant:

[Cow Poke]

So it is the "purposeful destruction" of the body that the EO is against? And the only thing that happens is that the person is denied Orthodox burial. What does that mean?

I guess I question regarding those who's bodies are destroyed in ways that might be construed as "purposeful destruction", although maybe the EO wouldn't consider these ways in that light; i.e. being eaten by sharks or torn apart by lions or burned or killed in an explosion, etc.

What is the EO view of those types of bodily disposal?

Good question... would there be a special dispensation, for example, like for Jews who were holocausted? (Except for Christians, of course)

What about a burial at sea? Realizing of course there is no "body" - would EO frown upon that?

Perhaps I should read the link, eh? :smile:

[mossrose]

When you cremate, you're burning God in effigy :rant:
:huh:

I am made in His image, yes, but there is no connect between burning MY body and burning God in effigy!

[Cow Poke]

:huh:

I am made in His image, yes, but there is no connect between burning MY body and burning God in effigy!

Moss, just for grins - is it too late to attach a poll to this? Or is that only done at OP.

[Thersites]

:huh:

A human being is the image of God. When you cremate a person, you're burning the image of God; thus, you are burning God in effigy :teeth:

[Cow Poke]

A human being is the image of God. When you cremate a person, you're burning the image of God; thus, you are burning God in effigy :teeth:

I'm thinking that's a classic "hit n run" :smile:

[mossrose]

Moss, just for grins - is it too late to attach a poll to this? Or is that only done at OP.
Yes, we can add a poll.

PM me the details and I can add it.

[Cow Poke]

coolness - thanks

[Thersites]

I'm thinking that's a classic "hit n run" :smile:

:grin:

:rant: :rant: :rant:

[Vivian]

I have, as Pastor, been asked a number of times about burial vs. cremation.

(Edit: (laughing) I had "creation" up there, instead of cremation - now THAT would be a debate!)

I'd like to hear your thoughts...

A) What does the Bible say about a particular message?
2) What does history tell us?
C) What would your preference be, and why?

The obvious factors...
cremation costs a lot less, and the "remains" are more mobile!
(I grew up in the North, but lived most of my life (so far) in Texas!)
I really don't know WHERE I want to be buried.
A geographical location is not really that important, because I "won't be here"!

The burial is, of course, more "traditional" today, and seems less ... um .. "hell-ish"

And, yes, I'm familiar that "burial" or disposal of remains throughout the world vary even to being put on a boat, being set on fire, and pushed off into the ocean.
There are burials at sea.

So, final point.. we're talking about a Christian burial (or disposal).



Hello Country Preacher -

Some traditions cremate because they believe that the destruction of the body helps the soul to move on. And although this has not been the tradition within the Christian culture, it is being more and more accepted. I think because it makes good sense.

We found a compromise between a casket burial and cremation with the death of my husband last year.

Really, we do not realize how much it costs to put a casket in the ground, thousands, and then there are environmental issues and, I think moral issues - to spend all that money and resource and energy to place something in the ground that will only rot.

We rented a casket so that my husband's body could be present at the memorial service. Which was a good thing, because his sister and brother wanted the casket opened so they could see him (before everyone else arrived).

Then he was moved to a cardboard box and cremated, and the cremated remains were then 'interned' into a grave site - the same site we would have used if he had not been cremated.

And so we had the benefits of a body at the memorial service, for some family members, and a regular grave site with head stone and everything, as a tradition place to visit, place flowers etc, but in between he was cremated.

Total cost through a first rate memorial service was $13,000. The same, but with no cremation - with the casket being buried in the same grave site, would have been $25,000 - $30,000, depending on the casket.

Hope this helps.


Viv
This forum is for orthodox Christian participation only.

[Cow Poke]

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Interesting .... and, actually, I had a very poor family from Louisiana - their 3 month old died... in a little bit of a different twist to the "rented coffin" thing... a "baby" coffin can cost WAY MORE than an "adult" coffin, due to economics... so I suggested they RENT a "nice baby coffin" for the funeral, then have the baby buried in a pine box... I KNOW this sounds not so good, but they were totally thrilled with it, because they had every assurance that the baby was "in Heaven" and they only wanted the "nice coffin" for the funeral.

But renting a coffin then cremation... hadn't thought about that.

[mossrose]

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That's basically what we did with my Dad and brother, Viv.

Many family members wanted the body present at the service, and then the body was cremated. We actually did not have a graveside service for either my Dad or my brother.

With my Mom, the body was cremated right away and was not at the service, but a few months later we all met together at the cemetery and had a memorial there, after her ashes were interred.

[The Curtmudgeon]

You didn't include my position on your poll, EP/CP. Essentially, since the funeral service is for the benefit of the survivors, I don't care what my loved ones choose to do to my remains, but it's their choice not mine. Whatever they feel comfortable with is fine, because they're the only ones who will have to deal with the issue. Me telling them what to do with my remains is ridiculous and a waste of time, and I might very well upset one or more of them by whatever choice I make. Also, what right do I have to tell them they must spend a certain amount of money on a ceremony I won't be interested in, or they cannot spend a certain amount of money on a ceremony that might be very special to them? The funeral service, whatever it might be, won't have any meaning to me, I won't be there anyway. What they bury or burn God will resurrect in His time, and I have no doubt that He can recreate me in a new body even from new previously-unused atoms and still make it "me" in every meaningful sense of the word.

Imperious Caesar, dead and turned to clay,
Might stop a hole to keep the wind away.
O, that that earth which kept the world in awe
Should patch a wall t’expel the winter’s flaw!

Besides, I don't plan on dying anyway, so it's a moot point.

The (no, really, I feel that way -- well, most of the time, at least) Curtmudgeon

[mossrose]

You didn't include my position on your poll, EP/CP. Essentially, since the funeral service is for the benefit of the survivors, I don't care what my loved ones choose to do to my remains, but it's their choice not mine. Whatever they feel comfortable with is fine, because they're the only ones who will have to deal with the issue. Me telling them what to do with my remains is ridiculous and a waste of time, and I might very well upset one or more of them by whatever choice I make. Also, what right do I have to tell them they must spend a certain amount of money on a ceremony I won't be interested in, or they cannot spend a certain amount of money on a ceremony that might be very special to them? The funeral service, whatever it might be, won't have any meaning to me, I won't be there anyway. What they bury or burn God will resurrect in His time, and I have no doubt that He can recreate me in a new body even from new previously-unused atoms and still make it "me" in every meaningful sense of the word.

Imperious Caesar, dead and turned to clay,
Might stop a hole to keep the wind away.
O, that that earth which kept the world in awe
Should patch a wall t’expel the winter’s flaw!

Besides, I don't plan on dying anyway, so it's a moot point.

The (no, really, I feel that way -- well, most of the time, at least) Curtmudgeon
Mudgie, I agree with you in essence. However, as we have aged, Mr. mossy and I have discussed the issue in some detail. Both of us are comfortable with my decision to be cremated, and my placing of that decision in my will.

We have also discussed the issue with our children, since they are likely to be the ones to have to deal with the issue for at least one of their parents. They are also comfortable discussing the issue and are fine with my reasoning behind my decision to be cremated.

My eldest sister told me not too long ago that she and her husband have both made the decision to donate their bodies to science. Both come from a medical background and recognize the need for such a donation for research purposes.

Her decision made me somewhat uncomfortable at first, but I am very glad she discussed it with me, and my other siblings, so at the time of her death, there will be no surprises for us. They have no children, so it will be us who will be dealing with at least one of them.

What is the difference between placing a choice in a will, or discussing it with your family before you die, and making pre-arrangement for your own funeral, which many people do these days? That pre-arranging takes the choices out of the hands of those who remain as much as a choice stated in a will.

:nsm:

[Cow Poke]

You didn't include my position on your poll, EP/CP. Essentially, since the funeral service is for the benefit of the survivors, I don't care what my loved ones choose to do to my remains, but it's their choice not mine.

The (no, really, I feel that way -- well, most of the time, at least) Curtmudgeon

My only differing with this is to make sure that "somebody" is designated to oversee your "final wishes"... As a pastor, i have been "caught in the middle" more than a few times with a wife who says "he would have wanted to be buried in Ohio" and a momma who says "he ALWAYS talked about being buried in Texas", and you have hurt feelings...

I agree that I don't really care what they do when i'm gone, but i sure don't want to leave a big fight and hurt feelings. Somebody needs to be the "decision maker".

As for the poll - blame Moss!!!! :smile: (I am clueless about how the poll works :shrug:)

[mossrose]

I can still change the poll. I only put on it what CP told me to.

:razz:

[Cow Poke]

What is the difference between placing a choice in a will, or discussing it with your family before you die, and making pre-arrangement for your own funeral, which many people do these days? That pre-arranging takes the choices out of the hands of those who remain as much as a choice stated in a will.

:nsm:

That was my point... there are so many things for the bereaved to think about, it it is widely known what your wishes were, or at least - who is "in charge", it takes a lot of pressure off at a time when decisions might not otherwise be made with clear thinking.

[Cow Poke]

I can still change the poll. I only put on it what CP told me to.

:razz:

Well.. yeah, there's that!

[mossrose]

I got a phone call many years ago from a local funeral home. They were asking people if they wanted to do pre-arrangements.

The call caught me off guard, and off the top of my head I replied, "Oh! I am planning on being raptured!"

There was a pause, and then the guy said, "Well, we handle everything here!"

:hehe:

[The Curtmudgeon]

Mudgie, I agree with you in essence. However, as we have aged, Mr. mossy and I have discussed the issue in some detail. Both of us are comfortable with my decision to be cremated, and my placing of that decision in my will.

We have also discussed the issue with our children, since they are likely to be the ones to have to deal with the issue for at least one of their parents. They are also comfortable discussing the issue and are fine with my reasoning behind my decision to be cremated.

Yes, Mossie, I understood that from your previous post. That's fine -- as your (and, of course, Mr. Mossie's & the Mosskids') way of dealing with the issue. It's certainly better than coming to a decision of your own regardless of their opinions and feelings on the matter (which, honestly, very few people do, I expect -- I think most people who give serious thought to the matter take it up with their families, as they should). All I'm saying is it's not my way of dealing with the matter. I'm not trying to tell you or anyone else that you should have the same opinion as I do.


My eldest sister told me not too long ago that she and her husband have both made the decision to donate their bodies to science. Both come from a medical background and recognize the need for such a donation for research purposes.

Her decision made me somewhat uncomfortable at first, but I am very glad she discussed it with me, and my other siblings, so at the time of her death, there will be no surprises for us.

Again, a very meaningful way of dealing with the issue. Again, not my way of looking at it. (Unless I die of some very weird illness, there's little for science, per se, to gain from my remains. I'd rather see any useable parts of me donated for organ/tissue transplants than research, but I doubt there'd be anything useable.)


What is the difference between placing a choice in a will, or discussing it with your family before you die, and making pre-arrangement for your own funeral, which many people do these days? That pre-arranging takes the choices out of the hands of those who remain as much as a choice stated in a will.

:nsm:

Well, for one thing, you have to keep updating your will as loved ones are added or subtracted from the equation. I have, really, only two immediate family members right now, my sister and my niece. But my niece is preggers, so if I live for, say, another dozen years or so my great(niece/nephew) might also have a say in it. But my older sister might also die during that time, so her opinion (if different from the others') would then be meaningless. My niece could (God forbid) get killed in an accident or something. Then there's the whole question of whether either of their husbands should get a vote -- and if they do, and then there's a divorce or one of them dies, you're editing the will again. Then there's that whole thing about people changing their minds over time -- people do that, y'know, especially (looks furtively around) women. :eek:

So you stated the whole problem, as I see it, yourself: "That pre-arranging takes the choices out of the hands of those who remain...". But that's exactly where I see the choice should be: In their hands, because they're the only ones whose opinion matters in the case. And they probably don't know today what they'll think about the matter should it ever arise. So why should anyone force a decision on them today? I think that they know my basic disinterestedness in the matter, and my reasons for it, but I can make sure that they realise that I don't have an opinion or preference in the matter, and won't make up their minds for them. (They already know that I won't make decisions that don't affect me in any case. This is just one of them.)

Again, this is only my own position on the matter, and I'm not suggesting that it's normal or right for anyone else to take. Different strokes for different folks, y'know. But since I hadn't seen anyone else express this position in this thread, and EP/CP wanted a survey of opinions, this is one.

The (:yes: I do like being different from the herd, naturally) Curtmudgeon

[Edited to add:] I do think that to be perfectly honest about the matter, I should say that there already is a default position for my disposal. My mother and her parents are buried in a four-casket crypt, and since I'm the life-long bachelor and my sister has both a husband and daughter whom she would most likely wish to be buried beside (depending on circumstances, of course), it's already understood that should the need arise, I'll take up the empty slot in the crypt. But that's more a matter of having an already-paid-for space available, so why let it go to waste, than it is an expression of my actual opinion on the subject, which I've expressed here. Should it work out that way, my loved ones would still have to provide a box for me, and depending on financial circumstances might still find that cremation was the more affordable option. If they do, and decide to do that instead of laying my remains to rest with the others, it won't matter a bit to me.

[mossrose]

Okay.

:flowers:

[The Curtmudgeon]

Besides, I don't plan on dying anyway, so it's a moot point.

The (no, really, I feel that way -- well, most of the time, at least) Curtmudgeon


I got a phone call many years ago from a local funeral home. They were asking people if they wanted to do pre-arrangements.

The call caught me off guard, and off the top of my head I replied, "Oh! I am planning on being raptured!"

There was a pause, and then the guy said, "Well, we handle everything here!"

:hehe:

Exactly! :highfive:

The (see you in the air, if not before, :mossrose: -- but I don't expect He'll let you bring The Pin(tm) with you) Curtmudgeon

[The Curtmudgeon]

My only differing with this is to make sure that "somebody" is designated to oversee your "final wishes"... As a pastor, i have been "caught in the middle" more than a few times with a wife who says "he would have wanted to be buried in Ohio" and a momma who says "he ALWAYS talked about being buried in Texas", and you have hurt feelings...

I agree that I don't really care what they do when i'm gone, but i sure don't want to leave a big fight and hurt feelings. Somebody needs to be the "decision maker".

As for the poll - blame Moss!!!! :smile: (I am clueless about how the poll works :shrug:)

I understand that, and if God should completely remake the world in such a way that I were to get married, my wife would have to understand that "In our family, family is family." But really, it's not a question here. If Mom were still alive, she'd get the deciding vote and everyone would know that. Since she's not, my sister is the only obvious designee, so she'll get the deciding vote (might as well -- she'd insist on it in any case :lmbo:). I doubt that there'd be any kind of a fight over it anyway, there's not likely to be a vast difference of opinion between my sister and niece.

The (again, I'm not suggesting that my opinion should be normative for anyone else) Curtmudgeon

[Vivian]

My only differing with this is to make sure that "somebody" is designated to oversee your "final wishes"... As a pastor, i have been "caught in the middle" more than a few times with a wife who says "he would have wanted to be buried in Ohio" and a momma who says "he ALWAYS talked about being buried in Texas", and you have hurt feelings...

I agree that I don't really care what they do when i'm gone, but i sure don't want to leave a big fight and hurt feelings. Somebody needs to be the "decision maker".

As for the poll - blame Moss!!!! :smile: (I am clueless about how the poll works :shrug:)

Yeah - the purpose, in my heart, is for those left behind. To make things as easy as possible for them. It could be that the death is a shock and the 'planners' are caught off guard. I would let my family know my preferences, but not pre-plan - let them have the final say. If they do not care, they can rely on my preferences, or they can do as they wish with my remains.

My choice is that their burden be as light as possible.


Shalom.

Viv
This forum is for orthodox Christian participation only.

[Cow Poke]

Since she's not, my sister is the only obvious designee, so she'll get the deciding vote (might as well -- she'd insist on it in any case :lmbo:). I doubt that there'd be any kind of a fight over it anyway, there's not likely to be a vast difference of opinion between my sister and niece.

The (again, I'm not suggesting that my opinion should be normative for anyone else) Curtmudgeon

Designate ME, mudge!!! I got your back! (boy, weekend at Berny's will look dull) :lol:

[mossrose]

Designate ME, mudge!!! I got your back! (boy, weekend at Berny's will look dull) :lol:
:uneasy:

[Xmansmommy]

Curt, I'm curious to know if you have discussed these issues with your loved ones? Do you know how they feel about the disposal of your remains?

Regarding the poll, personally I'm all for being cremated. I've talked about it candidly with my adult loved ones so they know how I feel. There hasn't been any conflict while I'm alive about it so I don't suspect there will be any once I'm deceased.

I also don't want a funeral but will leave that for my loved ones to decide. I would much rather they celebrate than mourn but I say that as someone who has not had to experience much grieving over losing a loved one to death. I hope my legacy will be such that more people than not will celebrate my life, over my death. :hehe:

[The Curtmudgeon]

Designate ME, mudge!!! I got your back! (boy, weekend at Berny's will look dull) :lol:

:lol: No offense, EP/CP, but in a case like that my money would be on Sis to take you down. She might not even need to bring her hubby's Cosa Nostra friends into it.

The (and I like you too much to be responsible for your premature demise) Curtmudgeon

[The Curtmudgeon]

Curt, I'm curious to know if you have discussed these issues with your loved ones? Do you know how they feel about the disposal of your remains?

Yes, in general they know that I don't see this as an issue that I'm involved in. I believe that the funeral service is for those who remain, and as such it should be up to them to decide how to best honour the deceased. It's not about me, it's about their feelings for me, and whatever they want to do is fine by me. "Whatever gets you through the night" (although my feelings on that are like my friend Allen Dameron's song, "My nights are fine, if I can make it through the day!").


Regarding the poll, personally I'm all for being cremated. I've talked about it candidly with my adult loved ones so they know how I feel. There hasn't been any conflict while I'm alive about it so I don't suspect there will be any once I'm deceased.

I also don't want a funeral but will leave that for my loved ones to decide. I would much rather they celebrate than mourn but I say that as someone who has not had to experience much grieving over losing a loved one to death. I hope my legacy will be such that more people than not will celebrate my life, over my death. :hehe:

Our family funerals have generally been much more about celebrating the life, than mourning the passing. Of course there have been tears, and of course we miss the departed one. But we do celebrate them, and quite a number of our funerals (or at least the post-funeral fellowships) have heard much more laughing than sobbing. I honestly can't think of one family funeral where there wasn't some laughing during the service, except maybe Uncle Mal's, and I was only 5 at the time and so my memories aren't of the best (and it was my first family funeral, so I was generally unclear on what was happening, plus he died relatively young and unexpectedly so it was a lot harder on the family). But even then, there were also good, funny stories about Mal during the family fellowship afterwards.

Many of the more recent funerals (including Mom's), the minister specifically asked if anyone wanted to share a story about the person, and my family being what they are, most of the stories are humourous in part, even when they're not completely funny (which, of course, a lot of the really good stories are). (Great-)Uncle Charles's funeral was a laugh riot, because that's the kind of man Uncle Chili was (and the fact that practically everyone other than family who was there called him Chili and not Charles will give you an idea). Seriously, they could have broadcast that one on any live stand-up comedy show. (And he would have loved that, I can assure you! :hehe:)

The (so :cheers: to Mom and Chili and Mal and Grandfather and Grandmother and all the rest ... except that I have to use Dr. Pepper or ice tea when toasting Grandmother, of course) Curtmudgeon

[One Bad Pig]

So it is the "purposeful destruction" of the body that the EO is against? And the only thing that happens is that the person is denied Orthodox burial. What does that mean?

I guess I question regarding those who's bodies are destroyed in ways that might be construed as "purposeful destruction", although maybe the EO wouldn't consider these ways in that light; i.e. being eaten by sharks or torn apart by lions or burned or killed in an explosion, etc.

What is the EO view of those types of bodily disposal?

And, I don't quite understand why the EO would think that cremation is disdainful of the body, when the body is merely a vessel that carries the spiritual part of us. What difference does it make when a person is dead? The vessel goes to ruin anyway.

I would like to understand the EO position on this.
The body is not merely a vessel, it is God's creation. Furthermore, it will one day be raised and transformed into an incorruptible body. Of course, cremation will not prevent that, but it's treated similarly to suicide - they're both deliberate destruction done to the body. The difference between this and your examples above is volition. People don't voluntarily get eaten by sharks. There are also some EO saints whose bodies never decayed.

I can see how not getting an Orthodox burial wouldn't necessarily be a big deal to a Protestant. In a society that memorializes its dead, however, the withholding of memorialization is fairly serious.

[lee_merrill]

The body is not merely a vessel, it is God's creation.
And God's creation, the world, will be burnt up with fire, you know--as were the sacrifices at the altar, if it comes to that!


... but it's treated similarly to suicide - they're both deliberate destruction done to the body.
I expect you would not oppose someone sacrificing his life to save another, on that account. But I agree that suicide is sinful, although not just because it involves the body--while emphasizing compassion for those who do this, and for their families.

But taking your argument here, shouldn't we be advocating embalming? Even like what the Egyptians did, or the freezing of bodies before death, to preserve them as much as possible?

Blessings,
Lee

[eudyptes]

I side with the 'Mudge....doesn't much really matter to me. I've made my preferences known...basically do whatever helps you grieve (or celebrate) better. Cremate, bury...or just throw over the side of a boat.

I have insurance that will pay for a nice funeral if that's what they want. And have told them cremation is perfectly okay by me as well. My only real request was to have a celebration more than a memorial....make sure the reason for the celebration is explained, for the sake of any unbelieving friends there.

A couple of nice to haves...some penguin reference..and serve strawberries :)

....
On the topic of cremation being like burning God in effigy....I may have it wrong but I always understood...being made in His image was our soul/spiritial nature not our physical nature. So that has departed at death...thus we wouldn't be burning God in effigy.



P.S..........HI XMM!!!!

[One Bad Pig]

And God's creation, the world, will be burnt up with fire, you know--
As you also know, we shall be caught up to meet Jesus in the air (first the dead in Christ, then the living). That sorta has to happen before the world is burnt up with fire, or there woudn't be any left living.


as were the sacrifices at the altar, if it comes to that!
I don't recall God demanding us to literally sacrifice ourselves on an altar. Last I checked the scriptures don't say anything about animals being raised.


I expect you would not oppose someone sacrificing his life to save another, on that account. But I agree that suicide is sinful, although not just because it involves the body--while emphasizing compassion for those who do this, and for their families.
Correct.


But taking your argument here, shouldn't we be advocating embalming? Even like what the Egyptians did, or the freezing of bodies before death, to preserve them as much as possible?

Blessings,
Lee
No, there's no need to advocate embalming. As I said above, it's not like God can't raise someone from the dead unless their body has been specially preserved.

[Vivian]

Does the EO pay for the expensive funeral when the family does not have the funds? It does not sound very loving to require families to go in debt to meet their standards of burial - especially when such is certainly NOT commanded any where in the Bible.

In reading the responses here regarding the EO stand on cremation, these words of Jesus come to mind...

Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.

Often Jesus spoke against such things, additional laws, burdens that the church officials required of the layman church goer.

I do love the EO church, though, for I feel they are doing much good work. But this sort of 'law' I consider a burden that they have no right to require of the parishioners.


Shalom.

Viv
This forum is for orthodox Christian participation only.

[Gatsby]

I find it laughable that people keep saying we are the image of God. We are made in his likeness ie, His creative abilities, that is the likeness. If we took it to mean what you Christians have believed, then, just think about it, we would all look the same would we not, otherwise we couldn't be in His Likeness. Which is a good point to bring up I think seeing as most beleive that God is seperate from then and think he is stitting somewhere 'up high' in a place called heaven and they imagine him to look like a very old man, with long white hair and a beard. Well I dont have long white hair or a beard, Iam a woman, LOL but nor do the men I know have long white hair and a beard, so seems that none of them are looking like the orthodox God.

Regards
Gatsby
This forum is for orthodox Christian participation only.

[Gatsby]

ps Sorry forgot to say on the issue of burial or cremation it doesn't matter to me personally, but the spiritual approach is for cremation because all that is gone is the material aspect of the person and not the person him or herself. They have moved on to a higher plane with the etheric or astral body which is within us all. So God doesn't need to make any new body to look like the phsyical one, it is already there. Just dont see it because it vibrates at a different speed or frequency.

Regards
Gatsby
This forum is for orthodox Christian participation only.

[One Bad Pig]

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The EO does not charge anything for a funeral. If a family cannot afford the burial cost, then the parish will provide assistance. And you may not have noticed, but the EO does not limit tradition to that which was written in scripture (as scripture itself does not).


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:ahem: Way to pre-judge what the EO practices without waiting for any possible defense (and take scripture out of context while you're at it).

[lee_merrill]

... caught up to meet Jesus in the air ... has to happen before the world is burnt up with fire, or there woudn't be any left living.
Yes, but I was just addressing the point that what God creates should not be burnt up, whereas the created world will be burnt up.


I don't recall God demanding us to literally sacrifice ourselves on an altar.
Well, no, but the sacrificial system does seem to put the principle of turning to ashes in a good light.


No, there's no need to advocate embalming.
I believe the principle of trying to preserve God's creation, to not intentionally damage it (by action or by neglect) would argue for it.

Blessings,
Lee

[Vivian]

My only differing with this is to make sure that "somebody" is designated to oversee your "final wishes"... As a pastor, i have been "caught in the middle" more than a few times with a wife who says "he would have wanted to be buried in Ohio" and a momma who says "he ALWAYS talked about being buried in Texas", and you have hurt feelings...

I agree that I don't really care what they do when i'm gone, but i sure don't want to leave a big fight and hurt feelings. Somebody needs to be the "decision maker".

As for the poll - blame Moss!!!! :smile: (I am clueless about how the poll works :shrug:)

Yeah - the purpose, in my heart, is for those left behind. To make things as easy as possible for them. It could be that the death is a shock and the 'planners' are caught off guard. I would let my family know my preferences, but not pre-plan - let them have the final say. If they do not care, they can rely on my preferences, or they can do as they wish with my remains.

My choice is that their burden be as light as possible.


Shalom.

Viv
This forum is for orthodox Christian participation only.

[One Bad Pig]

Yes, but I was just addressing the point that what God creates should not be burnt up, whereas the created world will be burnt up.
I just don't see how that has much bearing, since we explicitly won't be included in that burning.


Well, no, but the sacrificial system does seem to put the principle of turning to ashes in a good light.
Actually, it doesn't. The sacrificial system was instituted to show the seriousness of our sin.

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


I believe the principle of trying to preserve God's creation, to not intentionally damage it (by action or by neglect) would argue for it.

Blessings,
Lee
Eh, I think you're stretching things there. We are to be faithful stewards of God's creation, but what that means exactly is open to interpretation. IMO if that logically extended to embalming, it would've been part of the Mosaic Law and/or customary Jewish practice.

[Gatsby]

I just don't see how that has much bearing, since we explicitly won't be included in that burning.

Actually, it doesn't. The sacrificial system was instituted to show the seriousness of our sin.

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Eh, I think you're stretching things there. We are to be faithful stewards of God's creation, but what that means exactly is open to interpretation. IMO if that logically extended to embalming, it would've been part of the Mosaic Law and/or customary Jewish practice.

Hi One Bad Pig, I think your last paragraph her is self explanatory and not really open to interpetation. You say we are to be 'faithfull stewards of God's creation' well that just means we have to take care and look after this creation that we live in, no great thought needed about what our stewardship means.

Unfortunately many have forgotten this fact as they have also forgotten the fact that we have been given dominion over all things in this creation. The human being is the top of God's creation you could say, the pinacle and as such all that is 'beneath us' and I dont mean that in any derogatory way, needs to be cared and nurtured over by us. I think that is simple.

A few posts back it was Viv I think who mentioned a lack of respect for this creation world wide and I have to agree with her, or whoever said this if it wasn't Viv. This lack of respect shows itself by a lack of respect for oneself, which is also prevailent in these times. We must have a sense of self respect before we can go about respecting other's or creation as a whole. This is not a situation about self worth it is basically a lack of interest in others and in's one self in the correct manner. Anyway, enough said about that I think.

It also occurs to me, discussing the matter of burials or cremations and the costs etc. Does no one here have life insurance. I would have thought that having a small life insurance policy to take care of the after death expenses would not be out of the reach of many here. After that it boils down to what the inclination is, so be cremated or to be buried or even to dontate ones body to medical science.

Regards
Gatsby
This forum is for orthodox Christian participation only.

[mossrose]

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I have no life insurance. If I die, my husband or children have to come up with the money for a costly burial.

And part of our job as stewards of what God has entrusted to us is to choose wisely how to spend our money.

I refuse to spend huge amounts of money for all the trappings of a funeral when the money can go to charitable giving or to a child's education or a down payment for a home or something else that would help those still living.

A simple cremation in my town costs about $600. A life insurance policy for me, at my age right now, costs between $50-$100 a month, depending on how much the benefit is. It isn't worth it to have a policy for me.

My husband, on the other hand, our sole support, does have a life insurance policy. As he should. I am still going to have him cremated if he dies before I do.

I am not saying that other people should not have an insurance policy to help pay for a funeral. I am just saying that for me, it doesn't make sense to spend money on the premiums for maybe years, when a cremation isn't that expensive here.

[Chocobear]

Honestly? I have no idea which one I prefer. Yes, cremation is cheaper. But I'm creeped out by the idea of my body being burned and reduced to ashes. At the same time, I'm creeped out by the thought of my body rotting in a coffin.

It's my hope that Jesus will come back before I die, and I won't have to choose between cremation and burial. :wink:

[Gatsby]

I have no life insurance. If I die, my husband or children have to come up with the money for a costly burial.

And part of our job as stewards of what God has entrusted to us is to choose wisely how to spend our money.

I refuse to spend huge amounts of money for all the trappings of a funeral when the money can go to charitable giving or to a child's education or a down payment for a home or something else that would help those still living.

A simple cremation in my town costs about $600. A life insurance policy for me, at my age right now, costs between $50-$100 a month, depending on how much the benefit is. It isn't worth it to have a policy for me.

My husband, on the other hand, our sole support, does have a life insurance policy. As he should. I am still going to have him cremated if he dies before I do.

I am not saying that other people should not have an insurance policy to help pay for a funeral. I am just saying that for me, it doesn't make sense to spend money on the premiums for maybe years, when a cremation isn't that expensive here.


Hi, well that seems reasonable enough if cremation doesn't cost that much money and your husband has that money without any problems occuring. By that I mean trying to find that money and not actually having it.

It does seem to high a price to pay for insurance premiums I agree with you. So if your happy with things then that's fine.

Regards
Gatsby
This forum is for orthodox Christian participation only.

[Gatsby]

quote One Bad Pig:

Originally posted by One Bad Pig
If an Orthodox person gets cremated, they're generally denied an Orthodox burial (barring extenuating circumstances). IOW, we take it rather seriously. Cremation is inherently distainful of the body, and the practice is rooted in paganism. Why deliberately destroy what will one day be changed into an incorruptible body

I feel that you are not cognisant with what is real and what is not real so to speak. The body is purely a garment that Spirit uses while on this earth plane. We have several bodies, now, although we cant see them due to the rate of vibration of them. They are of a higher vibration than the fleshly body. So, our pyshcial body is not going to be changed into a incoruptible body as you claim.

This is faulty thinking due to orthodox teachings which dont teach the truth and lead people down the wrong path.

You probably will know the Biblical verse which says 'let the dead bury the dead'. Well obviously this cannot be a litteral verse can it?

It actually means let the dead (spiritually) bury the dead (those who beleive in death being the end and the body of flesh)
however the orthodox religions are unaware of this meaning.

Once the fleshly body is buried, it will not under any circumstances come back to life. The Spirit on death, the last breath in other words, leaves the body immediately. Hence you have poems such as 'dont weep for me, Iam not here' and things like that.

Regards
Gatsby
This forum is for orthodox Christian participation only.

[One Bad Pig]

:twitch:

[mossrose]

:yeah:

[Elder Earl]

As a member of the Body of Christ in this age cremation falls in line with God's concept of man being nothing but dust.
Posting eligibility follows the same guidelines as Christianity 201 in that only those persons holding to historical church orthodoxy (as defined by the Apostles Creed, and/or the Theology Web Statement of Faith, for example) will be permitted to post. Check here. (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/announcement.php?f=164)

[Elder Earl]

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Historical church orthodoxy is not what brings salvation. If it was the Pharisees and Sadduccess would have not missed their time of visitation from the Lord. Allow your creeds to be cremated and turned to ashes as you follow what the Spirit is saying unto The Body of Christ in this age.:sigh:

Now the only reason I posted here is for Dr. Jack and yourself along with the public can see the relevance of salvation by God's right hand, as private messages just do not seem to work.
Hear what the Spirit is saying unto The Body of Christ in this age by submitting to The Head Coner Stone which the builders rejected.
See the notice above. Don't post in this forum. Don't argue about moderation, except by private message or in the Psychotherapy Room. Don't make me work so hard on Saturday morning.

[Elder Earl]

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Ashes to Ashes, dust to dust as that is what cremation creates in us......:eek:
Dang.

[eudyptes]

..hands Michelle some coffee...tea...or her favorite soda.....

...don't work so hard..it's the weekend :penggrin:

[Gatsby]

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Hmmmm no surprise there then!!
:ahem:

[Mags]

I have, as Pastor, been asked a number of times about burial vs. cremation.

(Edit: (laughing) I had "creation" up there, instead of cremation - now THAT would be a debate!)

I'd like to hear your thoughts...

A) What does the Bible say about a particular message?
2) What does history tell us?
C) What would your preference be, and why?

The obvious factors...
cremation costs a lot less, and the "remains" are more mobile!
(I grew up in the North, but lived most of my life (so far) in Texas!)
I really don't know WHERE I want to be buried.
A geographical location is not really that important, because I "won't be here"!

The burial is, of course, more "traditional" today, and seems less ... um .. "hell-ish"

And, yes, I'm familiar that "burial" or disposal of remains throughout the world vary even to being put on a boat, being set on fire, and pushed off into the ocean.
There are burials at sea.

So, final point.. we're talking about a Christian burial (or disposal).

This question calls to mind our Father's disdain for the rituals involving molech the 'fire god' in the old testament. God specifically instructs us to bury the dead while emphatically hating the practice of burning humans. Now, whether His disgust is reserved singularly to burning humans in the form of worship regarding molech or if a pervasive hatred for the practice in general is not specified. http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/M/MOLECH%3B+MOLOCH/ - (http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/M/MOLECH%3B+MOLOCH/ -)- This provides some interesting reading on the subject.

As for my own preference, I used to like the practicality of cremation (reduced cost, ease and convenience, etc), but ....I think I'd rather a burial.

[Gatsby]

This question calls to mind our Father's disdain for the rituals involving molech the 'fire god' in the old testament. God specifically instructs us to bury the dead while emphatically hating the practice of burning humans. Now, whether His disgust is reserved singularly to burning humans in the form of worship regarding molech or if a pervasive hatred for the practice in general is not specified. http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/M/MOLECH%3B+MOLOCH/ - (http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/M/MOLECH%3B+MOLOCH/ -)- This provides some interesting reading on the subject.

As for my own preference, I used to like the practicality of cremation (reduced cost, ease and convenience, etc), but ....I think I'd rather a burial.

Ok, I dont know if this will get through but here goes anyway.

Can you tell me where in the Bible that God specifically instructs us to bury the dead?

Are you reffering by any chance to the words of Jesus saying 'Let the dead bury the dead. If you, what do you think these words mean?

Regards
Gatsby
This forum is set aside for orthodox Christians only.