Any charismatics?

[Gavin]

Are there any charismatics out there?

I myself am a third-wave charismatic. That means (among other things) that I believe that miraculous gifts such as healing, tongues, and prophecy are for today, but I do not endorse the notion that all Christians must speak in tongues in order to be baptized in the Spirit (feel free to ask me more about this, I love talking about it). The Vineyard denomination is a part of the third-wave movement.

What are yall's backgrounds?

[Freak]

Originally posted by Gavin
Are there any charismatics out there?

I myself am a third-wave charismatic. That means (among other things) that I believe that miraculous gifts such as healing, tongues, and prophecy are for today, but I do not endorse the notion that all Christians must speak in tongues in order to be baptized in the Spirit (feel free to ask me more about this, I love talking about it). The Vineyard denomination is a part of the third-wave movement.

What are yall's backgrounds?

Though I would consider myself simply a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and member of His body. I will however say I once served on staff, as an evangelist, of a Vineyard Church. I like their more reformed (Biblical) approach to the spiritual gifts. I believe in the present day operation of the miraculous gifts (if they are in line with Scriptural guidelines), but I do not endorse (as you, Gavin) the "notion that all Christians must speak in tongues in order to be baptized in the Spirit."

[Freak]

Originally posted by Freak
Though I would consider myself simply a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and member of His body. I will however say I once served on staff, as an evangelist, of a Vineyard Church. I like their more reformed (Biblical) approach to the spiritual gifts. I believe in the present day operation of the miraculous gifts (if they are in line with Scriptural guidelines), but I do not endorse (as you, Gavin) the "notion that all Christians must speak in tongues in order to be baptized in the Spirit." In fact, I don't speak in tongues but believe that God still gifts some of His people with this gift.

[Jaltus]

Actually, he said he does NOT believe people have to speak in tongues. You missed the negative there.

Only Pentecostals believe you must speak in tongues. Third-wavers just believe the gifts are for today.

Besides, I am a third-waver myself.

[Gavin]

I think we are all on the same page here actually.

Correct me if I am wrong, Freak, but my understanding from your post was that you also do NOT accept second-blessing theology.

[Gavin]

In fact, I don't speak in tongues but believe that God still gifts some of His people with this gift. I don't speak in tongues either, although I have prayed for/desired this gift before, for purposes of intimacy with God during prayer.

[Freak]

Originally posted by Gavin
I think we are all on the same page here actually.

Correct me if I am wrong, Freak, but my understanding from your post was that you also do NOT accept second-blessing theology.

That is correct.

[Freak]

Originally posted by Gavin
I don't speak in tongues either, although I have prayed for/desired this gift before, for purposes of intimacy with God during prayer.

Now, that would be an interesting question to ask everyone. How many have actually asked/prayed for the gift of tongues.

[GrayPilgrim]

I too am third wave. I vehemently beleive that second blessing theology is just the door to Christian Perfectionism, which as a Calvinst, who holds to progressive sanctification, find this teaching to be less than Biblical.

[Gavin]

I too am third wave. I vehemently beleive that second blessing theology is just the door to Christian Perfectionism, which as a Calvinst, who holds to progressive sanctification, find this teaching to be less than Biblical.

:thumb:

Once again, I agree.

Dang there is nothing to argue about over here. Someone say something outrageous or stupid to get things going! ;)

[GrayPilgrim]

Gavin is an apostle!:huh:

[Gavin]

Now that is outrageous!:p

[PRAISE]

Originally posted by Gavin
Are there any charismatics out there?

I myself am a third-wave charismatic. That means (among other things) that I believe that miraculous gifts such as healing, tongues, and prophecy are for today, but I do not endorse the notion that all Christians must speak in tongues in order to be baptized in the Spirit (feel free to ask me more about this, I love talking about it). The Vineyard denomination is a part of the third-wave movement.

What are yall's backgrounds?

GREAT THREAD, GAVIN! I will eventualy be joining a church, which IS Charasmatic when God tells me to! Check out my thread-I DO Believe in Spiritual gifts!
Singing Hios Praises;
PRAISE:thumb:

[PRAISE]

Actually, before I fell away from God, I too, had my own God-given prayer language! I'd sure like to have that gift again, although, what God has given me know is just as good-because I can share it with everyone! Praise God for that!:D

Always praising our Savior!
Praise:thumb:

PS-I start my new job tomorrow, so I won't be able to be online as much as I have been the past few weeks! To coin a well-used phrase, though-"I'LL BE BACK:hi:

Praising Him always,
PRAISE:thumb:

[Rubia Warren]

I'm charismatic, too.
Hey, Praise, I was thinking you were a catholic (?).

[Franciscan]

Put me down as a Charismatic Roman Catholic.

[dizzle]

Hey Fransiscan!! I am glad to see you.

[joelkaki]

I am not charismatic in any shape, form, or fashion. Besides, it seems to me that most of the "healing", "speaking in tongues," and "prophesying" done today is a bunch of faking any way.

Joel

[GrayPilgrim]

joelkaki, welcom to TW!

[PRAISE]

La Rubia:
I'm charismatic, too.
Hey, Praise, I was thinking you were a catholic (?).

Actually, the first 18 years of my life were spent as a Catholic!;)

Praising Him everyday,
PRAISE:thumb:

[Gavin]

One thing that is interesting about the charismatic movement is how ecumenical it has become in scope, embracing catholics as well as just about every type of protestant.

actually the charismatic movement is gaining its greatest momentum in south america and asia, not america.

[smilax]

Gavin:
One thing that is interesting about the charismatic movement is how ecumenical it has become in scope, embracing catholics as well as just about every type of protestant.

actually the charismatic movement is gaining its greatest momentum in south america and asia, not america.Check out The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity by Philip Jenkins. He documents this explosion from a secular perspective and predicts a resurgence of apostolic-style Christianity that will basically dominate the world by 2050. "Postmillennial optimism," anyone?

[Carl Smuda]

I am charismatic too. But I was attending the local Presbyterian church. I KNEW I needed to be in the Vineyard church halfway between Fallon and Fernley! Nertz! The are called the "Restoration Church" and are affiliated with Vineyard ministries.

My friends, I won't have time for the next eight months to go anywhere seriously. :help: Because I in a Peace Officer Standards and Training course through the western nevada community college. With a full time job at the Naval Air Station Fallon, and the commute to Carson for the POST academy five times a week what time I've got left is for my wife and children.

Folks, I want to pass this program very very much. I've done a lot of praying about it. But for the next 30 weeks I don't have the time to read all the wonderful books on our most holy Faith as I've had the pleasure these last two years.

I don't believe that anybody has to speak in tongues to be baptized in the holy spirit. I believe that by definition a Christian has been baptized into the one Spirit and has drank into the one spirit. We are all members of the Body of Christ, we have all been made to drink into one spirit and all have been baptized into one spirit.

I believe, if the Lord wills, the future will see me investigating my Brothers and Sisters in a Vineyard church. the wife and I want to move to the Carson area. And in fact, plan B is to move there even if I fail the POST. But as soon as I finish I have to go find my fellowship in-the-flesh again and I miss worship/utterance manifestations.

[Carl Smuda]

smilax:
Check out The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity by Philip Jenkins. He documents this explosion from a secular perspective and predicts a resurgence of apostolic-style Christianity that will basically dominate the world by 2050. "Postmillennial optimism," anyone? Smilax that book sounds very important! And the things I'm gleaning from what Gavin says about charismatic movement being ecumenical is really important! Praise the Father, Blessed be HIM! Does the word "restoration" make anyone elses heart swoon and knees get wobbly the way it does for me?Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21)

[AcousticJS]

Hi all

I'm definitely a charismatic. Dunno whether I'm 'third' or 'second' wave, cos I go to a Vineyard at my Uni town, but a second wave church (Salt & Light related) in my home town but we don't believe you have to speak in tongues. We just wish that everyone would 'cos it's great, and it's what Paul wanted for the Corinthians!

Roughly speaking, I would term myself a 'restorationist' in that I believe that God is restoring His church to His original intention for it. In this I would probably feel very comfortable among groups like NFI, PDI and (obviously) Salt & Light.

Lookin forward to getting to know you all.

God bless
Jon

[Reba]

Hi guys,


Born and raised in the A of G church. Seen lots of stuff some good some bad. Can speak in tongues at will. That is what bothers me WHOS will? We all seem to agree, salvation is not based on any works or any of "the gifts".

We all know tongues can be and is faked, in Acts the scripture reads:

Acts 2:3-4
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV

Looking at verse 3 have any of you seen the fire? For over 50 years i have heard the tongues but i have never seen the tounges of fire and it sure reads to me like they go together...IS verse three any less importiant then 4? Any thoughts?

[GrayPilgrim]

Carl Smuda:
I am charismatic too. But I was attending the local Presbyterian church. I KNEW I needed to be in the Vineyard church halfway between Fallon and Fernley! Nertz! The are called the "Restoration Church" and are affiliated with Vineyard ministries.

My friends, I won't have time for the next eight months to go anywhere seriously. :help: Because I in a Peace Officer Standards and Training course through the western nevada community college. With a full time job at the Naval Air Station Fallon, and the commute to Carson for the POST academy five times a week what time I've got left is for my wife and children.

Folks, I want to pass this program very very much. I've done a lot of praying about it. But for the next 30 weeks I don't have the time to read all the wonderful books on our most holy Faith as I've had the pleasure these last two years.

I don't believe that anybody has to speak in tongues to be baptized in the holy spirit. I believe that by definition a Christian has been baptized into the one Spirit and has drank into the one spirit. We are all members of the Body of Christ, we have all been made to drink into one spirit and all have been baptized into one spirit.

I believe, if the Lord wills, the future will see me investigating my Brothers and Sisters in a Vineyard church. the wife and I want to move to the Carson area. And in fact, plan B is to move there even if I fail the POST. But as soon as I finish I have to go find my fellowship in-the-flesh again and I miss worship/utterance manifestations.

Carl, I pray that the Lord will give you wisdoma nd knowledge as you study for the POST an that you are able to find teh Fellowship of the Flesh that you desire!

[Revolg]

I grew up as a Charismatic Oneness Pentecostal. I would say maybe some of the experience was real when you really seek God. But it left me hallow inside and depressed. I would also agree with Joel that it's probably more often fake. Heck, the Assemblies of God denomination holds classes on tongues.

[Reba]

Revolg:
I grew up as a Charismatic Oneness Pentecostal. I would say maybe some of the experience was real when you really seek God. But it left me hallow inside and depressed. I would also agree with Joel that it's probably more often fake. Heck, the Assemblies of God denomination holds classes on tongues.


agree . . . Yup they do . . . . have ya ever seen the tongues of fire?


carl,

My friends, I won't have time for the next eight months to go anywhere seriously. Because I in a Peace Officer Standards and Training course through the western nevada community college. With a full time job at the Naval Air Station Fallon, and the commute to Carson for the POST academy five times a week what time I've got left is for my wife and children.


Thanks for serving Carl christian police officers its a great idea!

[Reba]

IF i knew how to work this thing i would post a poll the question asked would be, Have you ever seen the tongues of fire as spoken of in Act 2 :3?

[AcousticJS]

Hi Reba

It's a good question about the tongues of fire. My response would be that the tongues of fire seems to be completely unique to the day of Pentecost. If you look at the other times speaking in tongues is mentioned in Acts, there is no mention of tongues of fire (Acts 10, Acts 19). That doesn't mean they weren't there I suppose, but if Luke were trying to teach us that REAL tongues is always accompanied by the tongues of fire it would seem kinda strange for him to not mention it, know what I mean?

God bless
Jon

[Reba]

Yea AcousticJS,

Yup i find some agrement in that idea just not total agrement. Then would baptism in the Holy Spirit today be lesser? What gets me is tongues is so easely faked. The wind and fire would not be.

. . . but if Luke were trying to teach us that REAL tongues is always accompanied by the tongues of fire it would seem kinda strange for him to not mention it, know what I mean?

yet many of those who speak in tongues have a belief that is not even metioned in scripture ( rapture) complete doctrines have been created over around this idea.



I was so suprised to not find the term ( heavenly language) in scripture i about flipped. I KNEW it was there Mom and Dad used the term like it was but its not?


Which brings me to ask is tongues an earthly language?


Acts 2:1-8
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
KJV


I wish to clarify my thoughts or feelings here this is such an emotional topic. I am not a skilled writer (like ya couldn’t tell) so don’t pick me apart please I do not believe one MUST speak in tongues to be saved or filled nor do I believe ones who do are not just as saved and Christian as those who don’t.

[Rubia Warren]

Oh, shoot. I don't have my bible handy right now! The question of languages is one that I had in the past also, Reba. "Heavenly language" I don't believe is mentioned, but I believe there is a scripture that says something about "though I speak in tongues

Wait- I found my bible. The NIV version though. It's 1 Corinthians 13. "And if I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."
This whole area of Corinthians is talking about spiritual gifts- check it out. Here it is mentioned about tongues of angels. Hope that helps.

[Reba]

Thank you La Rubia,

Cor 13 is about love or charity depending on the translation..

1 Cor 13

13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.




1 Cor 13:1
13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
ASV
(Yes i am changing translation here) in this tranlation paul says IF not that he does speak in the tongues but if.

[Rubia Warren]

Yeah. He's saying IF he speaks in tongues AND doesn't have love.
I have met quite a few people like this. They seem to speak in tongues and be real spiritual- but they have absolutely no clue what love is.
Are you talking about tongues being a salvational issue? Has someone been ramming "speaking in tongues to be saved" down your throat, or something? What is the point that you want to make?

[Carl Smuda]

AcousticJS:
Hi all

I'm definitely a charismatic. Dunno whether I'm 'third' or 'second' wave, cos I go to a Vineyard at my Uni town, but a second wave church (Salt & Light related) in my home town but we don't believe you have to speak in tongues. We just wish that everyone would 'cos it's great, and it's what Paul wanted for the Corinthians!

Roughly speaking, I would term myself a 'restorationist' in that I believe that God is restoring His church to His original intention for it. In this I would probably feel very comfortable among groups like NFI, PDI and (obviously) Salt & Light.

Lookin forward to getting to know you all.

God bless
Jon Jon if you could see me I'd be jumping up and down yelling and cheering! A restoration church just started a year or so ago 30 miles from Fallon between Fernley and Fallon. I knew I should of went there but it was too far away. (pass the kleenex). Now I'm mixing with Presby's and learning their cessationist ways even though I pray and sing in the spirit on a regular basis.

Reba,
God Bless you Grandma, God Bless you in the name of our most Holy Lord Jesus Christ! I've been SITing at will since around the fall of 1981. I've gone through the question and wonder myself. Have you shared much Interpretation of tongues and/or forthtelling prophecying? those two additional worship/utterance manifestations help keep our balance on what is and what is not fake. Also active outreach and witnessing (and learning to the spirits call, walking by the spirit, learning to work with our Father and Christ) has helped me in the past because all that together doesn't allow any conclusion that it's fake. Just tongues year after year can be problematic I have found. Not really staying faithful with a charismatic group since the late 80's. I experienced too much to dismiss the spirit of our Lord's Christ as fake. But I just wanted to say I think i know what you're talking about,
respectfully,
Carl

[Carl Smuda]

Jaltus! I respectfully request a Greek expert opinion. I was taught that the english word 'recieve' is key in understanding the Christian conversion. when we are converted we recieve (greek 'dechomai') the Holy Spirit and that is conversion, saved, born again, and the like. when we manifest the spirit in the senses realm we receive (greek 'lambano') the Holy Spirit objectively. Receive 'dechomai' is subjectively and an inside job. Recieve 'lambano' is objectively and in the sense realm. I'm sure that is embarrassinly inane to you, I don't know.

But if in the larger Charismatic/Pentecostal movement we are debating whether or not one must manifest in the senses realm (speak in tongues and the like) to be saved; then somebody SOMEONE, besides little teeny blips on the radar from midwestern cults, should have by NOW at least addressed the seventeen different greek words all translated in the King James as the one english word "Receive."

What think ye?
respectfully,

dechomai Hagion Pneuma lambano? :help:

[Rubia Warren]

I would be interested in that as well, Carl.

[Carl Smuda]

La Rubia,
God Bless you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ! Had you ever heard that before? That little group from Ohio, in all their primitivism, had us marking our King James' everywhere the english word 'receive' appeared. Just above the word we'd have a little 'd' or little 'l' so when we read we'd consider the passage regarding receiving something subjectively or objectively. Were we twisting the proper understanding of dechomai and lambano? I don't know. I wouldn't be suprised if we were.

But, my experience in those fellowships did seem to match the teachings from the Bible. We all could speak in tongues at will just like Grandma Reba indicated with the AofG church.

When we really work the scriptures, if we really study all we can about the manifestation of the Spirit and put together an attempt at understanding, I think one will plainly see that there is one Spirit given. One Gift poured out by Christ when He received it from the Father when He sat down on His Father's right hand. There to remain until all His enemies are His footstool. (Psalm 110:1; Acts 2:33; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4). There must be second and third meanings to the 2 or 3 different greek words translated 'gifts'. Because it is a body.

When we speak of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and Baptism in water (in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) we should look at the history of how that worked in the first 500 years of our Faith.

My attempts to reason-together with cessationists have failed. I could never get past the confusion and assumption and miscommunication. Because here is the kicker: even IF manifestation of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:7) has completely left us all when the Apostle died out? We should STILL be able to articulate with "mathematical exactness and scientific precision" what the Word of God does teach us about Spirit manifestation. Cessationists, I've had the questionable honor of jousting with, could not seem to get past their way of proving from scripture that gifts have ceased. Completely ignoring verses that suggest the ongoing availability of the Holy Spirit from the Lord Jesus as conversion, and the overwhelming existence of 100s of millions of charismatic/pentecostal denominations.

Charismatic 'gifts', wether they be of the miraculous powers, revelation, or worship/utterance kind, can be tracked through scripture and they all are from the same fountain of living waters (so to speak) therefore One Spirit, nine plus manifestations.

If what I was taught is true (and it very well may be wrong) then we all receive (dechomai) the Holy Spirit when we are converted, and we can all receive (lambano) the Holy Spirit in the right circumstances.

very respectfully,
Carl

[Rubia Warren]

No, Carl, I really wasn't taught that way- it's the first I've heard of it.
But now that you've told me about it, I am going to go through my bible tonight with my little highliter pen, marking all the receive words!!!! You have sparked my curiosity, and now I cannot rest until I check it all out!
If you have any other hints, please let me know, as well! You're the bomb, Carl!

[Carl Smuda]

Anything for a Hoosier! I'm glad that sparked your interest. The best hint I've gotten is respect the whole grid of basic Christiantiy. From the first century to the twenty-first. It isn't possible to mix all Christianities together as one melting pot. Every place in history must be acknowledged and appreciated in their own right. In that one starts to see the amazing common factors, common denominators of our most Holy Faith. Maybe that's only my little way of amusing myself this side of living our Faith in fellowship. And living our faith in fellowship with like-minded believers has no substitute. Like a Porshe grand auto.

I hope I don't underestimate the different theologies of our Faith again. My mentor sent me a big thick book of systematic theology for charismatics over the holidays. And I read a chapter just on the manifestation of "word of knowledge." And I was blown away. In all the sense it made, it was NOTHING like what I was taught word-of-knowledge was.

You want a tip? I'll give you a tip: DON'T accept the first thing your taught about anything in Christianity as the last word. Our Faith crosses 20 centuries. Don't even think that Saints all thought the same thing about everything. Context is king, in this case, and history is context. DON'T be married to your culture. DON'T allow yourself to become theologically shallow, spiritually weak, or blind to the work of God in others. ('The Chicago Call, 1977). :read:

[Reba]

Have ya seen the tongues of fire? as in Acts 2:3?





What is the purpose of 'tongues'? Can ya show me scripture references.

Acts 2 seems to say the purpose was to have the thousands Pete preached to hear.

[Hitch]

Jaltus:
Actually, he said he does NOT believe people have to speak in tongues. You missed the negative there.

Only Pentecostals believe you must speak in tongues. Third-wavers just believe the gifts are for today.

Besides, I am a third-waver myself. The 'must' speak in tongues folks are unsuallly the Modalists pentcostals. the Trinitarian groups , AOG FourSquare ,OpenBible etc dont make that requirement.


Take care

Hitch

[Jaltus]

Jaltus! I respectfully request a Greek expert opinion. I was taught that the english word 'recieve' is key in understanding the Christian conversion. when we are converted we recieve (greek 'dechomai') the Holy Spirit and that is conversion, saved, born again, and the like. when we manifest the spirit in the senses realm we receive (greek 'lambano') the Holy Spirit objectively. Receive 'dechomai' is subjectively and an inside job. Recieve 'lambano' is objectively and in the sense realm. I'm sure that is embarrassinly inane to you, I don't know.

But if in the larger Charismatic/Pentecostal movement we are debating whether or not one must manifest in the senses realm (speak in tongues and the like) to be saved; then somebody SOMEONE, besides little teeny blips on the radar from midwestern cults, should have by NOW at least addressed the seventeen different greek words all translated in the King James as the one english word "Receive." Carl,

There really is not that kind of distinction in the Greek. DEXOMAI is a much more limited word, whereas LAMBANW has to have an object or a prepositional phrase in order to specify agency. I think that the difference people have told you about is not a real one. John uses the two interchangebly.

Koine Greek is a Greek that is simplified, so many of what had been differences in meaning in classical no longer hold true in biblical Greek.

[AcousticJS]

Reba:
Have ya seen the tongues of fire? as in Acts 2:3?





What is the purpose of 'tongues'? Can ya show me scripture references.

Acts 2 seems to say the purpose was to have the thousands Pete preached to hear.

Hi Reba

I don't believe that Acts 2 is saying that the purpose of tongues was to have people hear Peter preaching. The purpose of tongues was (and I believe is) a sign of the outpouring of the Spirit. That's why Peter quotes the Joel 2:28-32 prophecy. The thousands hearing may have had their attention grabbed by the tongues, but that then leaves the question of why there was speaking in tongues in Acts 19 where it was at most about 13 people there (Paul and the Ephesian 'disciples').

The only Scriptures i can find that seem to suggest a purpose for the gift of tongues is in 1 Corinthians 14. Here Paul outlines some characteristics of speaking in tongues:

1. The speaker is communicating with God.
2. Generally, no-one understands what is being said without the gift of interpretation.
3. It is prayer that completely bypasses the mind.
4. It builds up (edifies) the speaker.

From these points, I have always understood that speaking in tongues is a good gift that God gives to His children so that they can pray directly to Him when they don't know how to pray. Or when their minds are occupied with something else. Or when they need to be built up with a greater 'level' of faith.

I have no issue with the speaking in tongues 'at will' bit, because I've always understood that it is me speaking, as the Spirit gives utterance. On Pentecost, it was the apostles and the other 108 believers who were speaking, but the Spirit was supplying the words for them to say.

Hope that makes some kind of sense.

God bless
Jon

[Reba]

The only Scriptures i can find that seem to suggest a purpose for the gift of tongues is in 1 Corinthians 14. Here Paul outlines some characteristics of speaking in tongues:

1. The speaker is communicating with God.
2. Generally, no-one understands what is being said without the gift of interpretation.
3. It is prayer that completely bypasses the mind.
4. It builds up (edifies) the speaker.


What you have posted here is nothing like Acts 2

Acts 2:6
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
KJV


QUESTION: Is 1 cor the same thing as acts 2?

Thank you for responding Jon

[Carl Smuda]

Jaltus:
Carl,

There really is not that kind of distinction in the Greek. DEXOMAI is a much more limited word, whereas LAMBANW has to have an object or a prepositional phrase in order to specify agency. I think that the difference people have told you about is not a real one. John uses the two interchangebly.

Koine Greek is a Greek that is simplified, so many of what had been differences in meaning in classical no longer hold true in biblical Greek. Thank you Jaltus. I'd figured you'd confuse the issue with facts. :cheers: I have no other way of demarcating recieve in receiving the Holy Spirit. I'll accept that DEXAMAI and LAMBANW are interchangeable. But is that all they are? simply two synonyms? :argh:

[Jaltus]

No, LAMBANW is a much bigger word, connoting giving and receiving, depending on the agency. Look at John 10:17-18

17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-- only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

Both of these words are a form of LAMBANW. One has the agency mentioned by a preposition (the second one) and the first does not (hence it being "take").

[AcousticJS]

Reba:



What you have posted here is nothing like Acts 2

Acts 2:6
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
KJV


QUESTION: Is 1 cor the same thing as acts 2?

Thank you for responding Jon

I believe that 1 Corinthians is the same thing as Acts 2. If you look at 1 Corinthians 13, Paul talks about speaking in the tongues of men and of angels. God speaks all languages and so is well able to inspire speech in a language that someone present would understand naturally if He should so choose. That is what I believe happened at Pentecost. If you follow on to verse 11, they tell us that the apostles and co. were "speaking...about the great deeds God has done" I would submit, in the light of 1 Corinthians, that this speaking of God's deeds was in the form of praise to God.

I believe that Acts 2 shows God enabling people to speak words in a language they don't know, as a form of praise to God. On this particular occasion, God chose to inspire them with languages known to the unbelievers present but it doesn't automatically follow that He will always do that. God still does it today. I have heard of a Jewish woman who went into a church prayer meeting and heard someone speaking in tongues. This person was actually speaking in Hebrew and praising God for all that Jesus the Messiah had done and is doing. Naturally this got the woman's attention and she soon believed in Jesus for herself. Now this could be a Christian 'urban legend' (just like the many stories that tell of people speaking in tongues cursing God) but it illustrates what I believe happened on the day of Pentecost.

This is why point 2 of my post said "Generally, no one understands what is being said without the gift of interpretation." Generally the other people present will not, but sometimes God surprises us and inspires us with a human language that someone will understand and come to faith in Jesus because of it.

God bless
Jon

[Carl Smuda]

Jon,
I'm with you here. Reba? Why do you think the manifestation of speaking in tongues is different in Acts 2 from 1 Corinthians 12, 13, & 14?
respectfully,
Carl :cheers:

[Reba]

AcousticJS:


Hi Reba

I don't believe that Acts 2 is saying that the purpose of tongues was to have people hear Peter preaching. The purpose of tongues was (and I believe is) a sign of the outpouring of the Spirit. That's why Peter quotes the Joel 2:28-32 prophecy. The thousands hearing may have had their attention grabbed by the tongues, but that then leaves the question of why there was speaking in tongues in Acts 19 where it was at most about 13 people there (Paul and the Ephesian 'disciples').

The only Scriptures i can find that seem to suggest a purpose for the gift of tongues is in 1 Corinthians 14. Here Paul outlines some characteristics of speaking in tongues:

1. The speaker is communicating with God.
2. Generally, no-one understands what is being said without the gift of interpretation.
3. It is prayer that completely bypasses the mind.
4. It builds up (edifies) the speaker.

From these points, I have always understood that speaking in tongues is a good gift that God gives to His children so that they can pray directly to Him when they don't know how to pray. Or when their minds are occupied with something else. Or when they need to be built up with a greater 'level' of faith.

I have no issue with the speaking in tongues 'at will' bit, because I've always understood that it is me speaking, as the Spirit gives utterance. On Pentecost, it was the apostles and the other 108 believers who were speaking, but the Spirit was supplying the words for them to say.

Hope that makes some kind of sense.

God bless
Jon


Carl,

I was responding to the above quote. AcousticJS listed 4 comments. In my view AcousticJS 4 statments do not line up with

Acts 2:6
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
KJV

[Carl Smuda]

There are ways for them to line up. It all depends on how you want them to line up. I agree with Jon.1. The speaker is communicating with God.
2. Generally, no-one understands what is being said without the gift of interpretation.
3. It is prayer that completely bypasses the mind.
4. It builds up (edifies) the speaker. The speaker is speaking God's wonderful works, magnifying God, speaking divine secrets to God. No man understands what is being spoken - in general. And SIT edifies the self and builds us up in our most holy Faith, praying in the Holy spirit. There are important things for us to learn, as we all know, by listening to God's Word. So let me ask you Reba, why don't they line up? What is different about the first outpouring of speaking-in-tongues with the normal operation Paul wrote about in the first Corinthian's letter?

And Jon, please don't let me hog-weena up this conversation. Since there are so many wonderful Saints of God here who respect the gift of Holy Spirit, it would be nice to compare notes and reason together, instead of arguing ad naseum with cessationists. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :yipee:

[Reba]

Carl,


In your view, Jon's 4 listed statment aline with Acts 2; 6?

Carl, just for background, i have been raised in tongues and the gifts for all of my 56 years. These are some of the questioins i have asked of many over the years.

[Carl Smuda]

Thanks Reba,
and God Bless you mightily in the precious name of our Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ! I've been praying and singing in the spirit at will since 1981. I don't think I've been as faithful as you have been to one denomination. You're AoG, right?

Jon's assertions line up first with the Word. Each of his points have a chapter-and-verse. I think they line up because I believe there is only one manifestation of speaking in tongues. Although there are many many charismatic/pentecostals who believe that there is more-than-one kind of tongue.

My oldest sister had four years of latin when she was in High School. Years after we both got involved with the same Charismatic group. She in South Bend, and me in Muncie. Once at a fellowship in Chicago she heard a man speak-in-tongues in perfect latin and then manifest interpretation of tongues. I wish I could have that sort of experience but I'm a english-only dude. Someday I will know spanish, if the Lord wills.

Acts 2:6 everyone heard them speak in their own language. The fame of this phenomenon is common coming from missionaries and the like. But for us stay-at-home sort we usually fit into the normal operations described by Paul in 1 Corinthians.

Do you think there is more than one kind of speaking-in-tongues?

respectfully,
Carl

[AcousticJS]

Carl Smuda:

And Jon, please don't let me hog-weena up this conversation. Since there are so many wonderful Saints of God here who respect the gift of Holy Spirit, it would be nice to compare notes and reason together, instead of arguing ad naseum with cessationists. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :yipee:

Hog-weena? :huh:

Sorry, I'm a brit not up with all the US slang. I guess that means don't let you take over the discussion?

Reba,

Am I right in assuming that the problem you have with reconciling 1 Corinthians tongues and Acts 2 tongues is that Acts 2 was definite human languages that didn't require the gift of interpretation?

Jon

[Carl Smuda]

Sorry Brit. :D A lot of people over here are wondering also what that means. You got though. Don't let me be a pig and take over the conversation. So much wonderful fun available discussing and comparing spiritual matters with each other. And it is unending fascination to me that soooo much of the truths of this field is in the Word of God. It makes me real happy that we can talk about these things and how they work in the Body of Christ, instead of arguing about wether they exist. :yipee:

[Reba]

AcousticJS:


Hog-weena? :huh:

Sorry, I'm a brit not up with all the US slang. I guess that means don't let you take over the discussion?

Reba,

Am I right in assuming that the problem you have with reconciling 1 Corinthians tongues and Acts 2 tongues is that Acts 2 was definite human languages that didn't require the gift of interpretation?

Jon

I was never atempting to reconciling 1 Cor and Acts 2:6 i was asking Jon about his reconciling and his 4 statments. Although my guess is the compairsin between the "books ' is where this thread will go.
:angel:

[darcutm]

01-27-2003 @ 09:28 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=1103#post1103)
Jaltus:

Only Pentecostals believe you must speak in tongues. Third-wavers just believe the gifts are for today.


Not true...It's the United Pentecostal Church that believes that...(Jesus only people)...I'm a pentecostal and don't think anything of the kind. In fact I rather praise God that you don't have to speak in tongues to be saved. Which makes for some interesting conversations, because I'm so supportive of the Baptists (who preach agains the pentecostals and Charasmatics) because they believe in going out and getting people save too. (I know other denominations are like that as well, but in my town, we have a baptist church on almost every intersection, sometimes 2 and usually 1-3 between intersections....)

IN HIM