The P51 Mustang is the best Warbird ever built

[Country Preacher]

There.

If you're a mustang fan, you'll agree, and add some little known fact.
If not, you'll tell us what WWII Warbird is better, and why.

WWII Warbirds only, please.

http://www.acepilots.com/planes/p51_mustang.html

[alaskazimm]

Yeah, the P-51 is a nice fighter. But I've always been partial to the German frontline fighters. Mainly the Me109 and the FW190. It's a source of amazment to me that these planes were able to be modified throughout the war to keep pace with the Allied fighters - to say nothing of the Me262 jet. And they did this while getting the snot bombed out of them by the Americans and the British.

[Country Preacher]

Yeah, the P-51 is a nice fighter. But I've always been partial to the German frontline fighters. Mainly the Me109 and the FW190. It's a source of amazment to me that these planes were able to be modified throughout the war to keep pace with the Allied fighters - to say nothing of the Me262 jet. And they did this while getting the snot bombed out of them by the Americans and the British.

Well, RATS! :smile:

I was thinking ALLIED Warbirds, but I DID NOT SAY that! :doh:

Excellent points - input appreciated! ALL Warbirds (WWII) are hereby eligible.

[alaskazimm]

Well, RATS! :smile:

I was thinking ALLIED Warbirds, but I DID NOT SAY that! :doh:

Excellent points - input appreciated! ALL Warbirds (WWII) are hereby eligible.

Ah, if it comes to Allied then I would have to agree the P-51 is tops. The small airport in San Diego where I used to mechanic would have a couple guys fly in for lunch in their Mustangs. Sometimes the tower would let them do formation takeoffs. There's nothing like hearing those two Merlins winding up at the end of the runway. Sweet!

Interesting factoid: the control surfaces (aileron, rudder, etc) of the hottest Allied fighter were wood* and fabric.

*Well, I mispoke - not wood and fabric, just fabric coverd.

[Country Preacher]

Ah, if it comes to Allied then I would have to agree the P-51 is tops. The small airport in San Diego where I used to mechanic would have a couple guys fly in for lunch in their Mustangs. Sometimes the tower would let them do formation takeoffs. There's nothing like hearing those two Merlins winding up at the end of the runway. Sweet!

Interesting factoid: the control surfaces (aileron, rudder, etc) of the hottest Allied fighter were wood* and fabric.

*Well, I mispoke - not wood and fabric, just fabric coverd.

San Diego, eh? My wife and I went there a couple years ago to Miramar for the Air Show... absolutely fantastic, and a formation of P51s was icing on the cake for me, besides the Heritage Flight which, at that show, was done with an A-10 Warthog and a P51-D.

[gharfish]

Not better; no, but the P-47 Thunderbolt was a very helpful bad boy!


>

[Country Preacher]

OH Yeah! What can i say.
And EXCELLENT "Heritage Flight" pic, too.

Maybe some day I'll figure out how to insert pictures.

[gharfish]

They made a great team !


>

[Country Preacher]

I'll have to get a picture of my P51 "Glamorous Glenn" ceiling fan in my office. :yipee:

[gharfish]

*jealous* ENVY.

gharfish wants.


>

[Country Preacher]

*jealous* ENVY.

gharfish wants.


>

See if you can see this link... this is the one (http://ep.yimg.com/ip/I/singularselections_2052_59070065) I have in my office.

[gharfish]

*looks up at his own* No. No. No.

I can't stand it !


>

[Country Preacher]

Ghar,
are you a Warbird fan, or general aviation?
I'm pretty much "any military aircraft" fan.

[gharfish]

I have just! a sad weakness for military airplanes. It all began so long long ago when I was a kid; I was absolutely wild over the WW I biplane dogfights/ers.


>

[Country Preacher]

Sopwith Camel? :smile:

I saw a history channel special where the pilots would actually shoot at each other with pistols, and drop bombs by hand over the side of the aircraft - it was pretty wild.

[Country Preacher]

65515

WOW... my FIRST EVER upload of a pic to a post!!!!

Sopwith Camel, of course. :yipee:

[Country Preacher]

One of my favorite P51 Pics

65516

[gharfish]

Sopwith Camel? :smile:

Yes, Charles Schultz taught us that ! If you knew about Snoopy, then you definitely knew well that his doghouse was at times a Sopwith Camel. He battled the Red Baron...and always was shot down. Blaaah !



Could I steal this and turn it into a ceiling fan, you think ? Turn it. Turn it.

Wait. :idea: .....Why, of course; it cools the room next to it--other side !

>

[gharfish]

65515

WOW... my FIRST EVER upload of a pic to a post!!!!

Sopwith Camel, of course. :yipee:Excellent ! Now abuse this ability like I do. Milk it !

Dogfighters of WW I and I loved loved loved me some German blimps when I was a kid. Hydrogen=BOOM.


>

[gharfish]

Country Preacher; what is all this..do ? ...with the scoop set in front ?

What a gorgeous plane. I should know what is being aided, back under there with that, but to my shame; no. I've never heard it explained before. Shoot, it just looks cool; that'd be enough, even if it served no useful purpose ! :lol:


>

[Country Preacher]

Country Preacher; what is all this..do ? ...with the scoop set in front ?

What a gorgeous plane. I should know what is being aided, back under there with that, but to my shame; no. I've never heard it explained before. Shoot, it just looks cool; that'd be enough, even if it served no useful purpose ! :lol:


>

I believe that is the exit door for the air flow from the distinctive intake scoop and "Dog House". The P51 had a unique dual cooling system - a large radiator with two separate vanes or cooling channels sat behind the air scoop, and as the air flowed through it, it exited that door.

The rear door could be controlled so, in cold weather or cold starts, the door remained mostly closed allowing the coolant to warm up quickly. Then, in flight, or after warm-up, the door opens to allow full air flow. Not sure if this was thermostat controlled or pilot controlled or both/either.

The main compartment of the radiator cooled the engine proper, and the second coolant path, "after cooler", cooled the supercharger and air/fuel mixture. Pretty ingenious. Here's a copy of the actual operator's manual. Sorry, but I honestly don't remember where I got this.

65523

In this drawing - those "pipes" show two sets of coolant lines going to and from the radiator.

[Longstreet]

There.

If you're a mustang fan, you'll agree, and add some little known fact.
If not, you'll tell us what WWII Warbird is better, and why.

WWII Warbirds only, please.

http://www.acepilots.com/planes/p51_mustang.html


No. And this comes from someone who gets all "tingly" when looking at the Mustang, in pics or in the flesh (aluminum?)

The best warbird to come out of WW2 is the F8F Bearcat. Lamentably, the Bearcat never saw action in that war. The USS Langley was on the way across the Pacific with a load of new F8F's when the war ended.

A tale is told, perhaps apocryphal, that soon after the end of the war a Mustang pilot and a Bearcat pilot held an impromptu contest to see which plane was the better fighter. Both took of at the same time, in opposite directions, and the Bearcat was off the ground and had made a pass on the P51 before the Mustang could get her wheels and flaps up. I have read this story several times, but have been unable to find an official, credible report of it on line. Given that the Bearcat set a record in 1946, taking off in 115 feet and climbing to 10,000 feet in 94 seconds, it's not hard for me to believe the story.

alaskazimm mentioned the German fighters. An interesting tidbit: the F8F was inspired after a Grumman test pilot flew a captured FW190 and reported to Leroy Grumman how impressed he was with the "Butcher Bird". Grumman had his designers look over the 190, and they incorporated what they learned into the F8F.


Specs for the P51D

* Length: 32 ft 3 in (9.83 m)
* Wingspan: 37 ft 0 in (11.28 m)
* Height: 13 ft 8 in (4.17 m)
* Empty weight: 7,635 lb (3,465 kg)
* Loaded weight: 9,200 lb (4,175 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 12,100 lb (5,490 kg)
* Maximum speed: 437 mph (703 km/h) at 25,000 ft (7,620 m)
* Range: 1,650 mi (2,755 km) with external tanks
* Service ceiling: 41,900 ft (12,770 m)
* Rate of climb: 3,200 ft/min (16.3 m/s)

Specs for the F8F2

* Length: 28 ft 3 in (8.61 m)
* Wingspan: 35 ft 10 in (10.92 m)
* Height: 13 ft 10 in (4.21 m)
* Empty weight: 7,650 lb (3,207 kg)
* Loaded weight: 10,200 lb (4,627 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 13,460 lb (6,105 kg)
* Maximum speed: 455 mph (405 kn, 750 km/h)
* Range: 1,105 mi (1,778 km)
* Service ceiling: 40,800 ft (12,436 m)
* Rate of climb: 6,300 ft/min (32.0 m/s)

Would I take a Bearcat over an Me262? In a heartbeat, but I'd take the Mustang over the Me262 as well.

The P51 may make me tingly, but the F8F arouses me in ways that would be inappropriate to mention here. Suffice to say, my wife made me take down my Bearcat posters soon after we got married.

gharfish, my 16 year old is a Thunderbolt fan as well. He does think it's a better plane than the Mustang, and will argue the point vociferously.

Some nice pics of my, um, passion...:ahem:

[Country Preacher]

Longstreet,
your points are all appreciated, but i don't like you anymore. :no:

KIDDING....
actually, you make valid points...
including the fact that the Bearcat didn't get an opportunity to prove itself.

But, give me this... the 51 DOES look sexier!

[Country Preacher]

As promised...
the Ceiling fan in my office at home!
P-51 "Glamorous Glenn III" version.

65530

[Littlejoe9763]

Hey CP,

Well, like Longstreets son, I am also a Thunderbolt fan. :hehe: The P-51 was a great plane in it's own right...no doubt about it. But the Thunderbolt was just an incredibly versatile, tough, hard hitting old bird. No other aircraft, Allied or foreign, could take punishment and keep on flying like the P-47. There are reports that some pilots preferred belly landing their burning Thunderbolts than risking jumping out. With a top speed of 473 mph, a top dive speed of 550mph and six .50 caliber machine guns, plus being able to carry two 500 lb bombs. Incredible machine. A few facts to back up the P-47 as the all time WWII fighter: source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-47)

1. Although the P-51 Mustang replaced the P-47 in the long-range escort role in Europe, the Thunderbolt still ended the war with 3,752 air-to-air kills claimed in over 746,000 sorties of all types, at the cost of 3,499 P-47s to all causes in combat.
2. In Europe in the critical first three months of 1944, when the German aircraft industry and Berlin were heavily attacked, the P-47 shot down more German fighters than did the P-51 (570 out of 873), and shot down approximately 900 of the 1,983 claimed during the first six months of 1944.
3. In Europe, Thunderbolts flew more sorties (423,435) than P-51s, P-38s and P-40s combined.
(emphasis mine)

And finally:

4. By the end of the war, the 56th FG was the only 8th Air Force unit still flying the P-47, by preference, instead of the P-51. The unit claimed 665.5 air victories and 311 ground kills, at the cost of 128 aircraft. Despite being the sole remaining P-47 group in the 8th Air Force, the 56th FG remained its top-scoring group in aerial victories throughout the war

So there! :tongue: :lol:

LJ

[Country Preacher]

OH, LJ... I had such HIGH HOPES for you.... my friends are dwindling fast! :doh:

But i DID ask for it! Thanks for your contributions!

[scratching LJ off Christmas Card List]

[alaskazimm]

1. Although the P-51 Mustang replaced the P-47 in the long-range escort role in Europe, the Thunderbolt still ended the war with 3,752 air-to-air kills claimed in over 746,000 sorties of all types, at the cost of 3,499 P-47s to all causes in combat.
2. In Europe in the critical first three months of 1944, when the German aircraft industry and Berlin were heavily attacked, the P-47 shot down more German fighters than did the P-51 (570 out of 873), and shot down approximately 900 of the 1,983 claimed during the first six months of 1944.
3. In Europe, Thunderbolts flew more sorties (423,435) than P-51s, P-38s and P-40s combined.
(emphasis mine)

And finally:

4. By the end of the war, the 56th FG was the only 8th Air Force unit still flying the P-47, by preference, instead of the P-51. The unit claimed 665.5 air victories and 311 ground kills, at the cost of 128 aircraft. Despite being the sole remaining P-47 group in the 8th Air Force, the 56th FG remained its top-scoring group in aerial victories throughout the war

So there! :tongue: :lol:

LJ
Well, to be fair, it wasn't that the P-47, P-51 were that much superior to their German counterparts, it was the difference in pilot training at that point. Remember that Germany had been at war since 1939 and the attrition of their best pilots meant that by 1944/45 there weren't many left.

As a counterpoint, Erich Hartmann was the leading ace of the war with 352 kills. He flew on the Eastern Front, but in several battles went head to head with the P-51. He flew the supposedly much inferior Me 109G. The outcome of those battles was 7 P-51s shot down. Hartmann's plane wasn't hit.

[Longstreet]

Man, County Preacher be hatin' on me and Little Joe!


But, give me this... the 51 DOES look sexier!
Oh yeah. The Mustang is gorgeous. Lithe, lean, dart-like, the under-belly scoop lending just the right air of menace...

While looking for a source on the dogfight story, I came across an account of a pilot that had flown the F8F and the P51. A fairly well-known name, can't remember it off the top of my head. He said of the two he preferred the Mustang because it was a nicer, cleaner airplane to fly. Said he could fly across the country in nice clothes, climb out and go straight to a meeting. After a flight in the Bearcat he was covered in oil and exhaust stains!

In Europe, Thunderbolts flew more sorties (423,435) than P-51s, P-38s and P-40s combined.
No disrespect to the 'Bolt intended, but I wonder how many of those sorties were ground-attack rather than fighter missions? As good as the P47 was as a fighter, it was superlative in a ground-attack role. 8 .50's, large bomb and missile load, and rugged construction made it an infantryman's best friend. Then too, there's some awesome gun-camera footage out there of P47's shooting up locomotives, with steam blowing out the bullet holes in the boiler. It's easy to see why they named the A10 "Thunderbolt 2".

Well, to be fair, it wasn't that the P-47, P-51 were that much superior to their German counterparts, it was the difference in pilot training at that point. Remember that Germany had been at war since 1939 and the attrition of their best pilots meant that by 1944/45 there weren't many left.
I would say that the Mustang and the Thunderbolt were definitely better planes than the 109, more or less a wash against the 190. Some of the later variants of the FW190 (I'm thinking of the D9 and the TA152) were probably better than anything we had. Having said that...

As a counterpoint, Erich Hartmann was the leading ace of the war with 352 kills. He flew on the Eastern Front, but in several battles went head to head with the P-51. He flew the supposedly much inferior Me 109G. The outcome of those battles was 7 P-51s shot down. Hartmann's plane wasn't hit.
Yep. With 2 airplanes of reasonably close capabilities, pilot skill wins the day.

352 kills. Man. On the one hand I'm enormously impressed, on the other I'm horrified to think of the man being at war for so long that he was able to rack up that many kills. You'd have to think that would take a toll on a man, even as impersonal as air combat tends to be.

Preacher, your ceiling fan is beyond cool.

[Johnny MacManky]

What I really liked about the Mustang was that my Airfix model (when I was a kid) had a transfer with big teeth for the front. :teeth:

eta: oooh... Airfix now do a "heritage flight" kit with the two planes in CP's avatar... but the Mustang now just has black & white checks on the nose.

[Longstreet]

What I really liked about the Mustang was that my Airfix model (when I was a kid) had a transfer with big teeth for the front. :teeth:

eta: oooh... Airfix now do a "heritage flight" kit with the two planes in CP's avatar... but the Mustang now just has black & white checks on the nose.

Yeah, I always thought the shark mouth looked better on the Mustang than on the Warhawk (and it looked pretty good on the Warhawk!).

That Airfix kit would be fun to build.

More interesting stuff re all this. The P51 had an amazingly long service life. Some Latin and South American air forces were still flying Mustangs in the '80's! Also, Cavalier and Piper heavily modified some late-model Mustangs for a ground-attack/counter-insurgency role, during and after Vietnam. The Merlin engine was replaced with a turboprop (Rolls Royce, appropriately enough), more hard points added under the wings and the wings strengthened to handle the load, modern avionics, etc. By the time they were done, the Enforcer only had about 10-15 per cent of it's airframe in common with the Mustang, but the lineage is inescapable. The Air Force wasn't interested in it, and the project was eventually cancelled.

The Army Air Corp wanted a longer-range version of the Mustang for use in the Pacific. North American came up with the Twin Mustang, two P51H's joined by a center wing section. The idea was to have a second pilot to share the load and reduce fatigue. The war ended before it saw combat, but it was eventually developed into a radar-equipped night fighter to replace the P61 Black Widow. The P82 (or F82 postwar) was the last piston-engined fighter ordered by the USAF.

The P47 saw a lot of use in the Pacific as well. The Mexican Air Force sent a squadron to the Philippines, where they served in a ground attack role and acquitted themselves well by all accounts. The squadron was called Aztec Eagles, and the Thunderbolts were painted an odd mixture of USAAC and Mexican AF markings. I'm pretty sure the Mexican AF was flying the Thunderbolt into the mid-70's.

In a shameless attempt to ingratiate myself with Country Preacher (I'm hoping to replace Little Joe on his Christmas card list), pics of the PA48 Enforcer, and the F82. Also, another heart-breakingly lovely cat from Grumman, the F7F Tigercat. Because I want to.

[Country Preacher]

Man, County Preacher be hatin' on me and Little Joe!



Naw, Country Preacher can't hate ya! I love ya like my brother. :hug::poke:
(I can still see the scar above his left eyebrow where he got 27 stitches from .....:shrug: hey, i thought he would duck!!!!)