Is anybody else enjoying watching what is happening in Iran?

[Country Preacher]

OK, HOLD your wrath!!!

I don't mean "enjoy" in the sense of taking it lightly or being amused...
I mean... this seems to be potentially WORLD CHANGING!
and my prayers are with the people of Iran.

But the fact is that Iran's leader is a holocaust denier, a nuclear proliferator, has threatened the destruction of Israel, is reportedly supporting the Islamic terrorist groups, and, in short, is a nutcase, IMO.

The first day or two, I thought, "ok, this is a 'flash in the pan' and soon Iran will return to being Iran"...

NOW, I'm not so sure... it is possible, as I said, that this is truly historic and world changing!

Comments?

http://www.slate.com/id/2220795/

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/06/19/this_is_for_real_97060.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/20/world/middleeast/20iran.html?_r=1&hp

[Sparko]

first I heard of it.

hmm. If the vote wasn't fixed and Ahmadinejad won by a landslide, then it would seem that there would be nobody to protest. The fact that the protests are causing problems shows that apparently a large segment of the people did NOT vote for Ahmadinejad.

[Country Preacher]

first I heard of it.

hmm. If the vote wasn't fixed and Ahmadinejad won by a landslide, then it would seem that there would be nobody to protest. The fact that the protests are causing problems shows that apparently a large segment of the people did NOT vote for Ahmadinejad.

AND, they are quite unhappy... some analysts even believe this is a rejection of the Islamic system... though that's a bit optimistic, IMO....

I DO think that a large number of Iranians are really tired of hearing their "leader" further isolate themselves from the world.

[Philosophickle]

The rallies are stirring a little bit of hope in me, but we must remember that Mousavi is only moderate in comparison with his competition. He is still a backwards, fear-mongering opportunist who has had a significant role in his countries attainment of nuclear capabilities.

[Sparko]

but how would we know if the new guy would be any better?


--
PS What does "The Olectual" mean in your website?
:outtie:

[Country Preacher]

but how would we know if the new guy would be any better?

Exactly ... the devil you know, vs....
but we know a LITTLE about the opposition candidate, and he's less radical, supposedly...
but that's always a valid point when you're dealing with an entity like Iran.

--
PS What does "The Olectual" mean in your website?
:outtie:[/quote]

Could it be like Oleo in the old days? (You're probably too young too remember when "fake butter" was called oleo - like oleomargerine) :smile:

[Augustine2004]

first I heard of it.

hmm. If the vote wasn't fixed and Ahmadinejad won by a landslide, then it would seem that there would be nobody to protest. The fact that the protests are causing problems shows that apparently a large segment of the people did NOT vote for Ahmadinejad.Ahmy is not the leader by any stretch of meaning. Being president of Iran is not at all like being POTUS. A religious leader whose name escapes me is the most powerful in Iran.

I'm not sure what the protests were for, but I doubt they'd be world-changing. The fall of the American empire would be, though.

[Country Preacher]

Ahmy is not the leader by any stretch of meaning. Being president of Iran is not at all like being POTUS.

Yes, clearly understood... but he's the nut behind the wheel who interfaces with the rest of the world.

A religious leader whose name escapes me is the most powerful in Iran.

Ali Khamenei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Khamenei)

I'm not sure what the protests were for, but I doubt they'd be world-changing. The fall of the American empire would be, though.

IF (and this is a BIG if) the protests are rejecting this puppet regime system (and it seems to appear so based on the refusal of the protesters to subside at the request of the mullahs) then it WOULD be world changing, particularly for Israel.

[Augustine2004]

Yes, clearly understood... but he's the nut behind the wheel who interfaces with the rest of the world.I fail to see why we should pay so much attention to Ahmy.IF (and this is a BIG if) the protests are rejecting this puppet regime system (and it seems to appear so based on the refusal of the protesters to subside at the request of the mullahs) then it WOULD be world changing, particularly for Israel.Another war in the Middle East = world-changing? I'd agree that if peace broke out everywhere in the MidEast, that would be historic.

[themuzicman]

Prediction:

A replay of Tienanmen Square forthcoming.

Michael

[Michelle]

Prediction:

A replay of Tienanmen Square forthcoming.

Michael

I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday, muz.

[Country Preacher]

I fail to see why we should pay so much attention to Ahmy.

like it or not, he is the "face" of Iran... he couldnt say or do what he says or does without the "blessings" of the powers behind him.

Another war in the Middle East = world-changing? I'd agree that if peace broke out everywhere in the MidEast, that would be historic.

Who's talking about war? I'm talking about revolution in Iran.

[Country Preacher]

Prediction:

A replay of Tienanmen Square forthcoming.

Michael

That most CERTAINLY is a real possibility!

[Sparko]

The muslim dictatorships are usually more subtle than the Chinese when it comes to controlling the masses. I see a round of Sharia trials coming up, focusing on key dissidents.

[Augustine2004]

The neocons prefer Ahmy as president. He’s their favorite whipping boy in Iran. ‘The latest Hitler.’ Things like that.

It doesn't seem like what the protests are about, even in part, though.

[Country Preacher]

The neocons prefer Ahmy as president. He’s their favorite whipping boy in Iran. ‘The latest Hitler.’ Things like that.

It doesn't seem like what the protests are about, even in part, though.

OK, so enlighten me. What, exactly, are the protests about?

[Augustine2004]

To an unknown extent, the protests are the results of US meddling.

[Country Preacher]

To an unknown extent, the protests are the results of US meddling.

I see

[Firelung]

I see

Oh it's true! <Insert lewrockwell link here> :lol:

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

I see
Just out of curiosity how many people in this discussion have ever been to Iran? I have been there.

[Country Preacher]

Just out of curiosity how many people in this discussion have ever been to Iran? I have been there.

So share your insight, already! :smile:

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

So share your insight, already! :smile:
Well, to begin, the perceptions of any who have never been there are typically incorrect about the basic fabric of the society. Iran is a complex culture with beliefs and a heritage that predates both Islam and Christianity. Iran is the center of the Persian world predating even Moses. The bazaars have existed for many thousands of years. Commerce and commercial loyalties are very powerful and whatever the ruling authority at any point in time it cannot exist without the support of those interests. The mistake the Shah made was to go against these interests. The current regime has erred more and more in recent years in the same way.

We, in the "western world" seem to have been fed the impression that the country is in the iron fist of the Mullahs. Not so. You are witnessing an attempt by the temporarily tolerated government to supplant the real powers beneath this society. Those attempts will fail tough they may or may not seem to succeed in the near term. My sense of things is that the religious regime may have over played its hand at this point. Whatever the near term outcome their power will be diminished if they are allowed to retain it. The outward appearances may be different. It will be interesting to see what is orchestrated in the coming days.

[USIncognito]

Just out of curiosity how many people in this discussion have ever been to Iran? I have been there.

I lived in the Tehranpars section of Tehran back in the mid-70s and have developed friendships with several Iranian ex-pats in the U.S. and UK over the years. I went to see an Azar Nafizi book tour speech for "Reading Lolita in Tehran*" and wound up in the signing line with two Iranian women and we talked for an hour about my childhood remembrances, what Tehran was like before the Revolution and politics since then.

Far too many Americans, especially those on the religious and political right, discount the modernism and discontent amongst the young, middle class and educated and rely on the Axis of Evil character we've known since '79. I've set my Facebook status to read "The Revolution will be socially networked."

* An excellent and wonderful book that I recommend highly, especially right now.

Here's a photo of me, some neighbors and the door to door dung salesman.

[Augustine2004]

Lew Rockwell & Co. says that neocons love to paint Ahmy as the Mideast Hitler.

[Pilgrim]

AND, they are quite unhappy... some analysts even believe this is a rejection of the Islamic system... though that's a bit optimistic, IMO....

I DO think that a large number of Iranians are really tired of hearing their "leader" further isolate themselves from the world.

I don't know. The protesters are apparently starting to chant things like "death to Khameni"

[Country Preacher]

I don't know. The protesters are apparently starting to chant things like "death to Khameni"

Understood - a couple things at work here...

A) we have a 24 hour news cycle in CNN and Fox News and MSNBC... they need to talk about "something", and that gets filled often with speculation.
2) at the very beginning of this thing, we knew it was "huge" (or at least *I* thought so!) but had no way of knowing which way it would unfold
C) and I don't think even the "experts" on Iran have any idea what's actually going on - much information is coming from "citizen reporters" and the situation appears very complex

It WILL be interesting, but I think we can agree it's not just a "flash in the pan". It does appear to have some aspects of a rejection of the religious leadership, but i'm still watching.

[USIncognito]

I don't know. The protesters are apparently starting to chant things like "death to Khameni"

Their actions are actually speaking louder than their words. Don't forget that on Friday Khameni told everyone to sit down and shut up and they haven't. The protests have continued and hopefully will continue until the regime is overthrown.

I just wish the military and police, who are largely conscripts, would stand with their fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers and fight against the Basijis and Revolutionary Guards.

[rogue06]

Khamenei is not held in the same regard as his predecessor Khomeini. There is the real possibility of a real shake-up in Iran but even so you can expect to see one Islam-based government to be replaced with another though one that is a bit more open and tolerant. The likelihood of another Turkey style democratic form of government seems very slim and the likelihood of a replay of Tiananmen Square far more probable.

[Augustine2004]

My guess is that the Irani people still believe that the government can do more good than bad. Also, if there's a regime change, opportunists will be there to seize power. I'm not optimistic about things changing for the better in Iran. The people are not capitalists like the Chinese.

[USIncognito]

My guess is that the Irani people still believe that the government can do more good than bad. Also, if there's a regime change, opportunists will be there to seize power. I'm not optimistic about things changing for the better in Iran. The people are not capitalists like the Chinese.

And you have this insight because you visited/lived in Iran for how long? Or do you have Iranian friends who have told you this?

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Here is an interesting article on the views of Mohsen Kadivar
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124571492981739137.html

[Augustine2004]

And you have this insight because you visited/lived in Iran for how long? Or do you have Iranian friends who have told you this?Oh, I'm sorry! So, are the Irani people anti-statist? Why do they still have a tyrannical government? Why is the economy so fettered? Why is it not performing even half as well as China's over the past 10 years? Can the people of a nation really change in a week, a blink?

[USIncognito]

Oh, I'm sorry! So, are the Irani people anti-statist? Why do they still have a tyrannical government? Why is the economy so fettered? Why is it not performing even half as well as China's over the past 10 years? Can the people of a nation really change in a week, a blink?

You didn't answer the question.

[Augustine2004]

You didn't answer the question.No, I have never been to Iran, and I have not met anyone who I know is from Iran.

[Country Preacher]

This is interesting - still going on - government crackdown seems vicious, and protesters are now making "hide-n-seek" appearances.

It looks like this is not going away anytime soon.

[Augustine2004]

Jeremy R. Hammond lists several reasons to suspect much if not most of the unrest in Iran was fomented by the U.S.

* The U.S. installed the brutal regime of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, a fact that Obama acknowledged recently.

* The Reagan Administration illegally sold arms to the Iranian regime while supporting Saddam Hussein.

* The National Endowment for Democracy (NED) supports foreign organizations sympathetic to U.S. foreign policy goals. (Jeremy recounts quite a list of NED activities.)

* U.S. rhetoric may be cited. For example, Ahmy ‘may be the new Hitler,’ even though he is rather unlikely to have much power in Iran.

There are more reasons, such as the Office of Iranian Affairs and covert operations.
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2009/06/23/has-the-u-s-played-a-role-in-fomenting-unrest-during-irans-election/

[Country Preacher]

Jeremy R. Hammond lists several reasons to suspect much if not most of the unrest in Iran was fomented by the U.S.

This is the guy from "The Smirking Chimp (http://www.smirkingchimp.com/author/jeremy_r_hammond)"? Or is he just a contributor? Or just quoted there.

Would you present him as unbiased?

[Augustine2004]

This is the guy from "The Smirking Chimp (http://www.smirkingchimp.com/author/jeremy_r_hammond)"? Or is he just a contributor? Or just quoted there.

Would you present him as unbiased?This is the first I've seen that. Apparently Doofusya is 'the smirking chimp.' It seems that Hammond is a contributor, in that at least he allows his articles to be published there.

Nobody is unbiased, not even you. You seem to be a Doofusya supporter.

[Country Preacher]

This is the first I've seen that. Apparently Doofusya is 'the smirking chimp.' It seems that Hammond is a contributor, in that at least he allows his articles to be published there.

Nobody is unbiased, not even you. You seem to be a Doofusya supporter.

This is not the first time I have tried to engage you in civil discourse, only to have you respond like a jerk. I didn't know - so I asked. Pure and simple.

I had no ill intent, I just wanted to know what bias he had. OF COURSE I have a bias, but I don't hide mine!

Do you EVER respond with civility?

[Augustine2004]

This is not the first time I have tried to engage you in civil discourse, only to have you respond like a jerk. I didn't know - so I asked. Pure and simple.

I had no ill intent, I just wanted to know what bias he had. OF COURSE I have a bias, but I don't hide mine!

Do you EVER respond with civility?Anybody asking, "Would you present him as unbiased?"--should have some expectation that the person receiving that would respond with some asperity, as I did. I'm sorry if I seemed like a jerk.

[Country Preacher]

Anybody asking, "Would you present him as unbiased?"--should have some expectation that the person receiving that would respond with some asperity, as I did. I'm sorry if I seemed like a jerk.

OK, let's start over... I think it's easy sometimes to assume somebody is being offensive, maybe even on purpose. Not my intent. I had NO CLUE who Jeremy R Hammond was, and when I googled him, the first thing that came up was "The Smirking Chimp". Naturally, I had a tendency to think he was some kind of nutcase.

As for "Anybody asking 'would you present him as unbiased' should expect... asperity".... I disagree. Sincere question. If you wanted to see some kind of attack there, i can understand that, given the lack of facial expression and tone of voice on this medium, but to be perfectly honest.... JRH appears, to me, to be pretty "left". Which is OK, if that's what he is. I simply didn't know.

To me, it's kind of important when reading somebody's viewpoint to know from what perspective he is coming. I did not pretend to be unbiased, and i realize ALL of us have at least SOME kind of bias.

There have been a few other times I have asked you a sincere question, and you seem to automatically assume it is some kind of attack, and "retaliate". If that's "just you" - no prob, I can deal with that. But, quite honestly, you seem to be a bit "reactive" at times.

[Augustine2004]

Country Peacher, if you will please examine the link in post #36, you can verify that it's to a webpage in www.foreignpolicyjournal.com

I don't know whether Hammond is a leftie. Right or anti-state. Anyway, I thought the article deserved a link. While I learned much from it--always hoping that it is nearly all realistic, of course--it correlated well with my prior reading.

I believe the USFG is a world-wide empire bent on bringing ever more of the world under its thumb ('Toward a New American Century'--seen that before?). Crazy, yes. Like what Hitler was supposed to be.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Back on topic, at this point it appears that there will be some recounts. I would anticipate several things in the near future.
1. limited recounts will show that although the win was by a smaller margin it was still a win.
2. internet access an cell phone service will be restored in stages.
3. Forces for greater freedom will begin regrouping and begin a slow pressure process.
4. We will see 4 more years of the current regime but beneath the surface changes will be occurring that will be impossible to stop in the next election.
5. I could be entirely wrong and Iran might erupt in a few weeks into outright revolt.

[Oolon Colluphid]

Well I was enjoying it, in a sense, until people started dying.

Those nuts have found someone else to blame apart from the Jews. Apparently it's all the fault of we Brits that people are complaining about having their votes stolen and misrepresented!

How do you solve problems like Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollah?

Admittedly part of me would like to see the Iranians dealing with them in much the same way as the Italians dealt with Mussolini, but I don't think it'll happen.

They were so dignified in their protests, not like protestors in the West who often as not are just looking for a fight with the riot police regrettably.

[Country Preacher]

Well I was enjoying it, in a sense, until people started dying.

Those nuts have found someone else to blame apart from the Jews. Apparently it's all the fault of we Brits that people are complaining about having their votes stolen and misrepresented!

How do you solve problems like Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollah?

Admittedly part of me would like to see the Iranians dealing with them in much the same way as the Italians dealt with Mussolini, but I don't think it'll happen.

They were so dignified in their protests, not like protestors in the West who often as not are just looking for a fight with the riot police regrettably.

In the States, a couple things have happened...
1) Michael Jackson died
B) The mainstream media has totally lost track of the Iranian situation because they can only track one story at a time, and they're going gaga over MJ.

You are correct - things have turned ugly in Iran.

[Country Preacher]

Back in the news.
Protests still ongoing in spite of threats of death.

[Philosophickle]

Back in the news.
Protests still ongoing in spite of threats of death.

CP, I just read a pretty interesting book about Iran that you may be interested in picking up:

http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Lolita-Tehran-Memoir-Books/dp/0812979303/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247246945&sr=8-1

[Country Preacher]

CP, I just read a pretty interesting book about Iran that you may be interested in picking up:

http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Lolita-Tehran-Memoir-Books/dp/0812979303/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247246945&sr=8-1

Sure... would you mind giving me a couple quick highlights? for some reason, this is really of interest to me, and I know that the impression you get of the actual situation can be SO filtered.

[Philosophickle]

Sure... would you mind giving me a couple quick highlights? for some reason, this is really of interest to me, and I know that the impression you get of the actual situation can be SO filtered.

Sure. It's the story of an Iranian woman who lived through the Islamic Revolution in Iran. She taught literature courses at the University of Tehran, but after the Revolution they made her adopt the head scarf and told her that Western books were banned. Blah blah blah, she quits, teaches formers students at her house, but the best part of the book is the description of the youth's revolt against the totalitarianism of the Muslim regime. This was written well before the current events in the country, so she was a little prescient when she describes the clash between the Revolution generation and those born in Iran after the Revolution.

[Country Preacher]

Sure. It's the story of an Iranian woman who lived through the Islamic Revolution in Iran. She taught literature courses at the University of Tehran, but after the Revolution they made her adopt the head scarf and told her that Western books were banned. Blah blah blah, she quits, teaches formers students at her house, but the best part of the book is the description of the youth's revolt against the totalitarianism of the Muslim regime. This was written well before the current events in the country, so she was a little prescient when she describes the clash between the Revolution generation and those born in Iran after the Revolution.

OK, ya sold me. Sounds like something worthwhile reading. Great book report - get yourself some bacon.

[Augustine2004]

OK, ya sold me. Sounds like something worthwhile reading. Great book report - get yourself some bacon.I saw a movie like that, maybe based on the book.

[Moksha]

I'm not enjoying the violence but I'm glad to see that those fighting for democratic reforms are begining to be heard.
I saw an interesting TV news report the other day about how those inside Iran fighting for reforms are making use of mobile phones and social networking sites to organise their protests and to capture images of what is occuring and get them out to the rest of the world.

Good luck to them. I don't anticipate an overthrow in the short term but hopefully continued pressure witl lead to a change.

[Augustine2004]

I believe Jeff Huber is reliable, but his analysis of the coverage of the Iran imbroglio by New York Times and Los Angeles Times is linked more FYI than for debate http://original.antiwar.com/huber/2009/07/13/the-persian-ploy/

[Country Preacher]

I believe Jeff Huber is reliable, but his analysis of the coverage of the Iran imbroglio by New York Times and Los Angeles Times is linked more FYI than for debate http://original.antiwar.com/huber/2009/07/13/the-persian-ploy/

Good article. Thanks.

[Country Preacher]

It's not going away...

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99GA1AO3&show_article=1