I hear-by start a Matrix Revolutions thread

[Yog^sothoth]

I watched it this morning. I have to say that this movie was outstanding in many regards. It has an anime ending, which made me all at once happy and sad. I won't put any spoilers up but I thought i'd say...HOT SKIPPY what a movie.

[Xavier]

Entertainment Weekly gave the movie a C+... Was it worse than the second film???

[Em7add11]

I'm going to get tickets sometime today for a weekend showing. I hope my experience is similar to Yog's. :teeth:

[Jin-Roh]

I'm hoping to catch it this weekend.

[TWells]

Im going to see it in 1 hour and 15 mins.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Spoilers Alert!
...




























Okay, I saw Matrix Revolutions and the earlier spoiler on the other thread was wrong on several parts but not all.

First, many of my predictions from my interpretation of the Matrix Reloaded were not disproven but not affirmed either. It seems that a lot of threads were left hanging by the W2 or they didn't want to give an official interpretation regarding what the films meant.

Some observations.

The film contains a mixture of references to Christianity and Eastern Religion. However, the breaking down of the dichotomies is furthered in many respects. Initially, an example is given of two programs who had fallen in love and created a child, who they had to protect to prevent her from being deleted, as happens to all programs that have no purpose. So apparently, what was presumed to be a human emotion is also possible for programs. The movie also shows that programs apparently can make choices that realign their allegiances, as Seraph is shown to have formerly served Mervy and Agent Smith refers to the Oracle as his mother.

Neo finds himself in an in-between world between the Matrix and "reality", which he somehow, unspecified, was able to enter from "reality". Neo's abilities in "reality" continue to grow, amplified for us all the more by his loss of normal human sight. Neo's programdom is further accentuated by how his encounter with the Oracle is this time as an equal.

The Oracle demonstrates her humanity by emphasing her own necessity of making a choice. Her choice was to let herself be smithed in hopes of setting the stage for Neo's final trojan-horse move. This is affirmed as a leap of faith at the end.

The most important message, though, seems to be that ultimately it is both Neo and Trinity's willingness to die for others that empowers them to change things. Trinity is willing to die so Neo can be set free. Neo willingly enters the matrix to fight the smithster(s), knowing that he will die/fail but willing to do anything to save human/programs from annihilation. In the end, his programness is honored by how the sentinels/programs themselves treat him as a messianic figure, implicitly acknowledging that his sacrifice was made on their behalf as well as that of humans. This is particularly illustrated by how they abandonded their attack on Zion where the humans were most vulnerable when there was nothing but their honor/word to Neo making them call off the attack. Neo must have inspired some respect in them to make them do this.

The movie has no depictions of human life within the Matrix, those that were fought earlier appear to have been programs owing to their abilities to walk on walls/ceilings and what-not(of course the character of those at the S&M rave was not revealed to us, but if they worked for Mervy then chances are they were programs), and so it seems that the promise that all humans connected to the matrix would die has been fulfilled. In that case, it is likely that the intention of the sentinels was to capture the vast majority of Zion for their return to the Matrix, rather than annihilation. They primarily attacked those that were attacking them. Unarmed humans were not killed. However, their withdrawal implies that in the future some agreement will need to be reached so that humans share some of their energy with the programs in return for protection/autonomy.

Other stuff, like the extent that Oracle manipulated Neo in MReloaded was not revealed in the movie. However, the film did affirm the reality of choice and that the predestination garble was Arky's form of social control. However, it also affirms the goodness of predestination, doing what one's purpose is, though this is referred to as karma. It could have just as easily be called one's calling. It was the belief that one accepts personal harm in the service of a greater calling that impelled the heros within the movie to make the choices they made and so the movie ends up affirming the importance of both choice and predestination as concepts by which we make sense of the world in which we live.

NEO-dlw

[Epoetker]

Two cents on the critics, with...POSSIBLE SPOILERS!!!!
















There were numerous complaints about Reloaded being far too intellectual. The first complaint in the first criticism I read complained that this one wasn't intellectual enough.

Enough of the capriciousness of journalists.

The religious symbolism/Christianity refs are as subtle as BRICKS :argh: in this one. Neo manages somehow to get portrayed as both Christ AND some sort of archangel, no mean trick for someone who already got the sometime role of Paul Atreides (those who got the reference to the inscrutable Dune series, pat yourself on the back.)

Lots of Gundam in the first half, lots of Dragon Ball Z in the second half. C'mon, why don't you two just start throwing REAL energy blasts and have done with it. Hugo Weaving could manage the Vegeta hairstyle with an hour in the makeup room, tops.

I guess if every human connected to the Matrix(with the possible exception of the Smithed) had in fact died at the moment Neo walked through the door in Reloaded, the wanton disregard for human life Neo showed 10 seconds later in blasting through the city like Majin Buu on a bad day could be forgiven. If you've already doomed the unsaved by your choices, may as well let any survivors go out with the biggest ground-level sonic boom in history.

The movie's biggest connection to Gnosticism my be the idea that you have to submit to sin (Smith) in order to be saved later on by the Christ-figure. Being Smithied is inevitable...it is your destiny...but maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Anyone think a better interpretation of this movie might make the machines angels in general? Some fallen, some not?

Based on Glenn Miller's Christus Victor (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/victor.pdf) outline? (Warning...PDF)

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I didn't get the angel reference for Neo, but I'll see the movie again tomorrow.

Humans are labor. Programs/Machine are Capital. While Capital can abuse labor, so can labor abuse capital. Ultimately, both need each other and so the future depends on their ability to reconcile their differences and live with each other.

Neo had to accept death in order to save both programs and humans. It is because of his sacrifice that the programs/sentinels honored him at the end and honored their promise of peace with Zion to him, when nothing was holding them back from reenslaving the vast majority of Zion.

dlw

[Epoetker]

You're defining the movie in Marxist terms?

Walk sloooowly away from the college campus.

[Epoetker]

You're defining the movie in Marxist terms?

Walk sloooowly away from the college campus.

The angel part was after the Smith battle in front of the God-machine. Or whatever that was.

[Yog^sothoth]

deus ex machina is the name of that machine.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Its not just Marxist terms.

And the interpretation is very straight-forward.

dlw

[Ryokan]

Yesterday @ 07:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=274078#post274078)
Love-Warrior:

I didn't get the angel reference for Neo, but I'll see the movie again tomorrow.

Humans are labor. Programs/Machine are Capital. While Capital can abuse labor, so can labor abuse capital. Ultimately, both need each other and so the future depends on their ability to reconcile their differences and live with each other.

Neo had to accept death in order to save both programs and humans. It is because of his sacrifice that the programs/sentinels honored him at the end and honored their promise of peace with Zion to him, when nothing was holding them back from reenslaving the vast majority of Zion.

dlw


It gets weirder though, because is a Robot slave a laborer or Captial? Where do you draw the line?

[Ryokan]

And dlw, your marxist interp makes the Matrix sound kinda like a neo Metropolis, if you've ever seen that.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I've seen Metropolis.

Sure, the dichotomy is broken down, but the prevalence and importance of human capital today also has broken down the Marxian/Classical Economics dichotomy.

The point is that conflict still prevails and one side is fully capable of mistreating the other and that some sort of compromise where both sides respect the importance of the other, as is oft gotten at with Catholic Social Thought, is needed.

dlw

[Chuck Lee]

Yesterday @ 05:43 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=274067#post274067)
Epoetker:

Lots of Gundam in the first half, lots of Dragon Ball Z in the second half.



Say, the Dragon Ball Z analogy works. Two guys relentlessly and ineffectualy beating the snot out of each other until something completely unrelated to beating the snot out of each other finishes things.

I never liked Dragonball Z because of that, and I yawned through most of the Matrix fistfights (this movie and even more so the second one). I like the rest of it, though.

[Joey Joe Jo Jr.]

Upon reading several reviews for this movie, I have made 3 determinations:

1. Those who liked the first movie but disliked the second movie will continue to be disappointed by this movie.

2. Those who liked the first and second movies may or may not like this movie

3. Those who disliked the second movie but liked the second movie will love this movie

I assume that there is a fourth category of people who hate them all.

I fall into category 1. I LOVED the original. I hated the second...the more I watch it, the more I think the Worsteshire brothers have ruined their own creation (much akin to Big George introducing mediclorians and the like in Episode I).

I have yet to see Revolutions but I'm preparing for the worst.

My proposal:

I propose that when weighing in on this movie, one should state their position on the previous two. This is the only way for the rest of us to gain a context.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I presume that people in cat 3, disliked the first movie.

I have friends who initially disliked MReloaded but then after having read my interpretation, they came around to it, and so they don't fit so well in your categories.

If you don't like loose ends, then you won't like Matrix Revolutions. It leaves a lot of those.

dlw

[Chuck Lee]

I liked the first movie, but there was a big loose end about the fate thingy that bugged me.

I liked the second movie despite the annoyingly long martial arts scenes (annoying because they were largely pointless). Better yet, it enhanced the first movie for me by clearing up that big loose end.

And I liked the third movie too. It was only that one long fight scene that was a problem in my opinion, but then again it did have some nifty special effects to go along with it.

[Kyle]

Honestly, I like the movie a lot more now than I did right after I was done watching it. It has kind of grown on me. And, in my opinion, this movie has the best fight scene in any Matrix movie.

The first movie was a masterpiece- it could have been ended with the first rather easily, but I am glad they did not. The second one, I felt, was great despite quite a few complaints. In order of greatness I would say the Original, then Revolutions, then Reloaded, but that doesn't mean I disliked Reloaded. I think they are all awesome.

[Epoetker]

Ineffectual?

DBZ usually NEVER lets evil characters die with something as pedestrian as a PUNCH. They die when the two fighters revert to BLASTING the snot out of each other.

Energy attacks are the bane of the villains.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

For me, my thinking about Matrix Revolution would be describable as faith seeking understanding...

I had a lot of questions that were unanswered by the movie and it raised new questions that were not answered well IMO.

But it does answer some questions and the main point re:Neo is interesting when juxtaposed with the main point of the previous.

Neo succeeded where the other one's failed, not because of his abilities, but because of his decision to love Trinity more than anything else. This made him manipulable by Oracle et. al. into choosing the other door.

In this movie, Neo's willingness to die to save, in the more immediate sense, all programs inspired them to venerate him a human and hold to their promise to not destroy/reenslave Zion , when nothing was practically holding them to honor this promise.

I guess Neo ended up atoning for his past "selfish" choice having resulted in so many deaths and making peace possible by sacrificing himself to serve both sides of the conflict.

dlw

[Epoetker]

Quite plausible.

But you should really read James Lileks's wonderful takedown (http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/03/1103/110703.html) of the Matrix as Capitalists vs. Little People. Excerpt:


I took away something else from the Matrix trilogy: it is a product of deeply confused people. They want it all. They want individualism and community; they want secularism and transcendence; they want the purity of committed love and the licentious fun of an S&M club; they want peace and the thrill of violence; they want God, but they want to design him on their own screens with their own programs by their own terms for their own needs, and having defined the divine on their own terms, they bristle when anyone suggests they have simply built a room with a mirror and flattering lighting. All three Matrix movies, seen in total, ache for a God. But they can¡¯t quite go all the way. They¡¯re like three movies about circular flat meat patties that can never quite bring themselves to say the word ¡°hamburger.¡±

That was the best thing I've read on them in a loooooong time.

[/QUOTE]

[Em7add11]

It would have been easy to end the whole thing after the first movie. It had a nice "almost" resolved feel like at the end of chick-flicks where the couple that nobody thought would make it gets married. The next two movies are a chance to finally see what happens after the happy ending.

Am I right in seeing the Merovingian as a devil figure? Besides the obvious "Hell" reference in the elevator he also tried several times to tempt people to bend to his will in order to achieve their goals.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Well, the fact he is married to Persephone would imply more that he is a Hades-figure.

Mervy is a determinist. My theory is that he may have been one of "the ones" who made it to Arky and chose the other door, accepting Arky's deterministic view of how everything was working according to a well-tuned system of equations.

He is not the arch-evil figure, though. Just one player in the drama in addition to the members of Zion, the Scions of the Machine-world, and the programs that support giving the humans more autonomy/freedom like Oracle.

I just got a chance to watch Matrix Reloaded again on DVD last night and I thought I'd provide a public service by transcribing Neo's dialogue with Oracle, since that has received significantly less attention than his dialogue with Arky and it is the contrast between the two dialogues that is most revealing about the previous movie. I also see hints that aspects of his dialogue with Oracle portended for his eventual sacrifice in Matrix Revolutions....

O:Well come on. I ain't gonna bite you.
Come around here and let me have a look at you.
My goodness, look at you. You turned out all right, didn't you?
How do you feel? (Neo takes off glasses)
N:I...(faces her)
O:I know you're not sleeping. We'll get to that.
Why don't you come and have a sit this time(moves bag to side).
N:Maybe I'll stand. (blink)
O: Well, suit yourself.
N:(Pause, Blink, turns and sits) I felt like sitting.
O: I know. (Neo faces her)
S...let's get the obvious stuff out of the way.
N:You're not human, are you?
O:It's tough to get more obvious than that.
N:If I had to guess, I'd say you're a program from the machine-world.
So is he. (turns to Seraph)
O:So far, so good. (Neo turns back to her)
N:But if that's true, that could mean you're part of this system...
another kind of control.
O:Keep going.
N:I suppose the most obvious question is...(faces oracle)..how can I trust you?
O:Bingo (points and turns)... . It is a pickle, no doubt about it.
Bad news is...there's no way you can really know if I'm here to help you or not. So it's really up to you. Just have to make up your own d-mn mind...to either accept what I'm going to tell you or reject it.
Candy? (offers)
N:(pause). Do you already know if I'll take it?
O:Wouldn't be much of an oracle if I didn't.
N:But if you already know, how can I make a choice?
O:Because you didn't come here to make the choice. You've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it.
(Neo takes candy) I thought you'd have figured that out by now!
N:Why are you here?
O:Same reason.... I love candy!
N:But why help us?
O:We're all here to do what we're all here to do.
I'm interested in one thing, Noe:the future.
And believe me, I know, the only way to get there is together.
N:Are there other programs like you?
O:Well, not like me, but... Look, see those birds?
At some point, a program was written to govern them.
A program was written to watch over the trees and the wind, the sunrise and the sunset. There are programs running all over the place. The ones doing their jobs, doing what they were meant to do, are invisible. You'd never even know they were here. But the other ones... Well, you hear about them all the time.
N:I've never heard of them.
O:Of course you have. Every time you've heard someone say they saw a ghost or an angel...every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves or alines...is the system assimilating some program...that's doing something they're not supposed to be doing.
N:Programs hacking programs. Why?
O:They have their reasons...But usually a program chooses exile when it faces deletion.
N:And why would a program be deleted?
O:Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it. Happens all the time. And when it does, a program can either choose to hide here...or return to the source.
N:The machine mainframe.
O:Yes. Where you must go. Where the path of the One ends.
You've seen it...in your dreams, haven't you? A door made of light? (Neo nods) So what happens when you go through the door?
N:(pause) I see Trinity..and something happens...something bad. She starts to fall, and then I wake up.
O:Do you see her die? N:No. O:You have the sight now, Neo.
You are looking at the world without time.
N:Then why can't I see what happens to her?
O:We can never see past the choices we don't understand.
N:Are you saying I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?
O: No, you've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it.
N:No! (shakes head) I can't do that, I won't.
O:Well you have to! N:Why? O:Because you're the One.
N:What if I can't? What if I fail?
O:Then Zion will fall. (Seraph puts hand on Oracle's shoulder.) Our time is up. Listen to me Neo.
You can save Zion.... If you reach the source, but to do that you need the Key-maker.
N:The Key-maker?
O:H disappeared. We didn't know what happened to him until now. He's being held prisoner by a dangerous program...One of the oldest of us. He is called the Merovingian.
(....)
Seems like very time we meet I got nothing but bad news. I'm sorry about that. I surely am. But for what it's worth...you've made a believer out of me.


A couple of comments. Oracle's statement that all the one's end is finally at the source, seems to maybe have double meaning. Neo, as part of his oneness, has to be willing to accept death in the end to save both programs and humans. Zion's fall depends on both his choosing the other door to try to save Trinity and his willingness to go on after her death and to accept certain death in facing the Smiths.

Here is a reposting of Neo and Arky's dialogue.


The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is ********."*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! **** you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architect's room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - ********.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "********!"*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.


Now, for a brief segment of what Mervy said to Neo:
(After expressing how undertanding the Why is only our hope, the only truth.)Why is what separates us from them...you from me. "Why" is the only source of power. Without it, you are powerless. And this is how you came to me, without why, without power. Another link in the chain.

(This and Persephone's remark form the basis for why I think Mervy may have been the first, "the one". It also makes for an interesting contrast with Matrix Revolutions, since Mervy's failure to understand how Trinity would die to save Neo is what allowed her to save him from Mervy.)

dlw

[Em7add11]

If Mervy was the first "the one" then what advantage would it provide him to hold the keymaker hostage? There's not any reason to believe that Smith didn't infect all humans and programs before the end of the movie and so he had no real advantage to stopping Neo at the expense of Smith running wild.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

1. There must be someway you can edit the profanity without editing the only phrases in which there is profanity, so people, so inclined, can infer the original phrase.


Em7add11:

If Mervy was the first "the one" then what advantage would it provide him to hold the keymaker hostage? There's not any reason to believe that Smith didn't infect all humans and programs before the end of the movie and so he had no real advantage to stopping Neo at the expense of Smith running wild.

2. The key-maker provides access to all over, hence, holding him hostage provides more power to Mervy, which is what he is all about. As for his one-ness, he seems to keep that to himself, perhaps as part of the knowledge that gives him power over others.

3. The latter part applies to MRevolutions, not MReloaded. If the human population connected to the matrix was decimated then it seems likely that many programs were smithized, but, apparently, not all of Merv et. al. Besides, it seems that Merv had a hard-on for killing Neo and this overwhelmed the pragmatic concern re:the Smiths. We really just don't know how Merv and the Smiths interacted. This never is broached by the W2 brothers.

4. As for Matrix as Capitalists vs. Little People, the point made is that conflict exists and where there are huge power asymmetries either side can manipulate/control the other to their advantage.

But the point the dude doesn't get is that the Matrix movies, particularly the latter two, is about criticizing manicheistic thinking and point out the inevitable role of faith in driving us to behave the way that we do wrt changing our given systems with an eye to the future.

And the dude's characterization of Oracle's dialogue clearly portrays just how little he has watched the movie and understands the messages in it.
dlw

[Kenny]

I liked the movie (loved the first two as well). My predictions based on a Gnostic reading of the movies pretty much panned out.

I will also note the atheistic existentialist conclusion. In the end, there was nothing higher that Neo was fighting for, no greater purpose, no higher justification – not love, survival or fate. In the end all that remained was choice. Neo simply accepted the responsibility for his own choice and acted accordingly.

As a Christian theist, I enjoyed these movies the way I have enjoyed reading the likes of Sartre, not because I agreed with the philosophy, but because of the artistic way in which a philosophy opposed to my own has been articulated.

Plus, I just thought the action scenes kicked serious … butt. I thought the fight with Smith was a bit cheesy though. My wife laughed out loud at that scene several times and I can’t say I blamed her.

God Bless,
Kenny

[Da Lone-Warrior]

But it wasn't that these things didn't exist, but that they were human constructions whose existence could only be affirmed not confirmed and so Neo's choice was both to continue fighting and affirming that there was more purpose to life than just the struggle to maintain his existence at the expense of others...

dlw

[Ryokan]

11-07-2003 @ 08:32 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=275232#post275232)
Epoetker:

Ineffectual?

DBZ usually NEVER lets evil characters die with something as pedestrian as a PUNCH. They die when the two fighters revert to BLASTING the snot out of each other.

Energy attacks are the bane of the villains.

SPIRIT BOMB!

[Xavier]

Ryokan:

SPIRIT BOMB!

And people wonder why I stopped watching DBZ... ARGH!!!

[Ryokan]

Today @ 01:04 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=277554#post277554)
Xavier:



And people wonder why I stopped watching DBZ... ARGH!!!

That it buddy. Keep insulting the highly intellectual, thought provoking epic that is DBZ, or I am gonna have to bust out the special beam cannon.

Seriously though. I think Neo by giving his life, affirmed that life meant something, even if he couldn't say what that was.

[Epoetker]

I saw no crosses of any sort following his victory over Smith in the darkened world.

When the spiky Deus ball said "It is done," it was nowhere meant to allude to the fact that Jesus said something like "It is finished" following his death.

And the fact that Neo brings peace between Deus-machine and man by defeating Smith in no way parallels Christ bringing peace between God and man by winning the victory over sin.

No religious allusions whatsoever.

(insert segue animation here)

DBZ, like most anime, is so much better with the benefit of the manga. Read the manga, then was able to tolerate the shows.

Majin Buu was cool. No two ways around it.

[Chuck Lee]

Epoetker:

DBZ, like most anime, is so much better with the benefit of the manga. Read the manga, then was able to tolerate the shows.



No disrespect intended, but I think that trick works far better with the earlier Dragonball series.

[Yog^sothoth]

DBZ is the first of the shonen shows. Hats off to you Goku!!! Who'd've known they'd make a show with that crazy monkey Goku and all that buddhism cool?

But the king of all shonen's is One Piece! Long live the age of pirates!

yeah, i'm off topic in my own thread.

[Warcraft3]

I just saw the movie and I actually thought the message in this one was rather simple.

There are several moments in the movie that I think sum up the message but the two that stick out are

1. When Trinity gives her last words to Neo.

2. When Agent Smith asks Neo "Why?" and Neo says "Because I chose to".

Everything else seemed to be a minor philosophical point compared to these two concepts.

Two of the greatest things that we humans have are love and choice and when we combine the two........when we make a choice to show love.......we can give ourselves and others hope.




Russ

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Epoetker:

I saw no crosses of any sort following his victory over Smith in the darkened world.

Neo's hands were stretched out in a Cross-position.


When the spiky Deus ball said "It is done," it was nowhere meant to allude to the fact that Jesus said something like "It is finished" following his death.

Why not?


And the fact that Neo brings peace between Deus-machine and man by defeating Smith in no way parallels Christ bringing peace between God and man by winning the victory over sin.


No religious allusions whatsoever.



You're s'posed to signal the correct interpretation of the above by smily, I believe...

dlw

[Da Lone-Warrior]

steadele:

I just saw the movie and I actually thought the message in this one was rather simple.

There are several moments in the movie that I think sum up the message but the two that stick out are

1. When Trinity gives her last words to Neo.

2. When Agent Smith asks Neo "Why?" and Neo says "Because I chose to".

Everything else seemed to be a minor philosophical point compared to these two concepts.

Two of the greatest things that we humans have are love and choice and when we combine the two........when we make a choice to show love.......we can give ourselves and others hope.

Russ

Well, Russ I think the imperative for conflicting parties to find ways to coexist, reconciling their differences so that neither abuses the other would be an important choice that would require us finding the ability to love our enemies.

dlw

[Yog^sothoth]

The most religious thing I could find in this movie was the "cosmic Budda" that Neo was. He freed their minds of the cycle of reincarnation.

Sati means companion in Hindi and at the end of the movie she was the program in control of the sun...sun, companion...strange allusions for things to come.

there ya be.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

But I thought Buddha freed people from the cycle by making them cease to desire.

Neo's sacrifice was so others could live and be made free from the control of the smith-virus. He took on the smith-virus so that it would return with him to the source, which is what happened to him at the end as evidenced by the light that emanated from him, as well as all the smiths...

dlw

[Yog^sothoth]

i didn't say it was perfect! :eek:

[Da Lone-Warrior]

n' I just said that there be more than that in terms of religious metaphors in the Matrix-movies...

:huh:
dlw

[Yog^sothoth]

oh. well yeah. there are a lot that are very subtle. This one just kind of struck me as "out there" but then it could be my delving into Shinto and Buddhism of late and too many conversations about Hindu mythology that made me notice such things. A lot of the other stuff seems to be covered here so I thought i'd post that.

[bar Jonah]

I never would have thought that a Matrix movie would bore me. :huh:

[Yog^sothoth]

i had never thought that you would bore me. :shocked:

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I had thought that...

Matrix-Movies are more interesting when they are understood...

dlw

[bar Jonah]

Love-Warrior:
I had thought that...

Matrix-Movies are more interesting when they are understood...

dlw
Well, Reloaded made me angry because so much of it was incomprehensible. Especially demonstrated by the conversations of movie-goers coming out of every show I attended, arguing...

"So Zion is destroyed now?"
"No, man, it's gonna be destroyed at any moment."
"What? I thought it was like a day away or something."

Repeat in every rewording possible, ad infinitum. Almost no one I overheard really understood the ending. I'm a reasonably intelligent person and a huge movie buff, and I had to see the film 2 or 3 times before I fully understood what was going on. (Glaring logical inconsistencies and paradices notwithstanding.)

However, Revolutions bored me because it was SO "understandable" that it was simplistic and extremely predictable. Nothing at all surpirised me. I foresaw how it was going to end and everything. But... at least it didn't add any new, massive logical inconsistencies.

[Sheepdog]

RI, if you understood Reloaded, there would be no logical inconsistencies :whack: :tongue:

i just saw Revolutions tonight, and i am in awe. only thing i didn't like was how they ended the Neo-Smith fight. i dunno, i was expecting it to be more .... what's the word i am looking for?... hellawesome. but otherwise i thought it was a great movie.

if we are going to talk about Matrix Philosophy, what about the philosophy regarding technology? if some of the Technological Determinists (not to be confused with Determinists we see in theological debates) of the early century-- even back to a couple of centuries-- saw our society, and the Matrix movies, they'd probably laugh at the irony. could we really survive in our modern society without technology? how can we say we aren't plugged into our modern day devices?

scary thought, huh? (i actually disagree with the Technological Determinists, but it is a worth while question to explore)

[bar Jonah]

I do understand Reloaded. I just didn't understand it the first two times. I've seen it four times now.

No massive illogical inconsistencies? There are people who had been in the Matrix for 50, 60, 70 years or more, even approaching a hundred. That means this iteration of the Matrix has been running that long or longer. But in that world, there were no computers or cell phones and insufficient phone lines for people to be getting out of the Matrix and going back in again to fight the system. People were escaping and going back into the Matrix in the 1920's and even earlier? This is impossible.

In fact, in the first movie, they say that The One appeared long ago in the current iteration of the Matrix, and he was the first to set people free. He died but was prophecied to be reborn again someday to save the world -- Neo. So this latest iteration of the Matrix is even older.

But this is impossible. In the first movie, they said that this iteration of the Matrix was created specifically to operate in the late 20th century. Oops. :doh:

[Sheepdog]

Today @ 01:05 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=281403#post281403)
RightIdea:

No massive illogical inconsistencies? There are people who had been in the Matrix for 50, 60, 70 years or more, even approaching a hundred. That means this iteration of the Matrix has been running that long or longer. But in that world, there were no computers or cell phones and insufficient phone lines for people to be getting out of the Matrix and going back in again to fight the system. People were escaping and going back into the Matrix in the 1920's and even earlier? This is impossible.

perhaps they are necessary, but then again, perhaps not. in this era the network system (phonelines, etc.) acted as a conduit between the Matrix and the Real World. but these may not necessarily be the only means. i could imagine an earlier version using railroad tunnels or... heck, remember how the doors worked in Reloaded? perhaps a third position in the tumblers could be used to unlock a gateway out.


In fact, in the first movie, they say that The One appeared long ago in the current iteration of the Matrix, and he was the first to set people free. He died but was prophecied to be reborn again someday to save the world -- Neo. So this latest iteration of the Matrix is even older.

true. heck, assuming hitory in the Matrix ran smoothly between reiterations of the systemic anomoly, that could easily be 600 years! again, if doors or something else was used as a well-hidden conduit, it is not necessarily impossible. of course, the only thing i can think of that would be realistic is a system through doors. and of course, locking mechanisms have been around for quite some time.


But this is impossible. In the first movie, they said that this iteration of the Matrix was created specifically to operate in the late 20th century. Oops. :doh:

if i recall correctly, those were the words of Agent Smith. however, it is possible that he lied-- or more realistically, he didn't even know! The agents we are familiar with (that take over bodies) are probably a recent upgrade over obsolete agents (i think the twins were agents, once).

[bar Jonah]

Assuming... assuming... and assuming.

Making a false prophet's donkey out of you and me. :lol:

[Kenny]

I think the memories of people hooked to the Matrix were altered at least once with every iteration, probably more times than that, so as to preserve the appropriate time frame. Remember how in the first one they said they could plug Sipher (the Judas figure) back in and make it so he remembered nothing and so that he was someone rich and important (which would seem to involve altering the memories of others as well). They also said in the first one that the Matrix was specifically designed to represent the end of the 20th century, so I don’t think they let history progress. I imagine that they occasionally “reset” history. Of course, this may involve reworking things a bit, moving people around and making them think they are different people than they thought of themselves as before, but this doesn’t seem like it would be all that difficult for the machines to manage. Perhaps Sipher had even heard of this or even seen it happen in his own lifetime and this formed the basis for his belief they could plug him back in and make him someone different. Of course, in order to be consistent with the storyline, it must also be the case that the programs themselves retain their memories throughout since they seemed to remember the previous iterations.

God Bless,
Kenny

[Sheepdog]

yeah, what Kenny said makes sense

and are you calling me an ass? :hinn:

[bar Jonah]

You guys are just making up a bunch of stuff that isn't in the movie, to try to solve the movie's problems. If Reloaded and Revolutions had been well-made, you wouldn't have to do that. That's the point.

[Kenny]

Today @ 07:00 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=281512#post281512)
RightIdea:

You guys are just making up a bunch of stuff that isn't in the movie, to try to solve the movie's problems. If Reloaded and Revolutions had been well-made, you wouldn't have to do that. That's the point.

I don't think so. No movie can fill in all the gaps in the storyline without leaving some of it to the imagination. And, my explanation is drawn from material within the movies themselves.

Of course, I think it's fun to find creative ways to plug in plot holes (I even tried to work out a coherent time travel system for the Back to the Future movies) so maybe I'm not the best one to judge.

[bar Jonah]

As the movie-goer, I don't think I should have to work to fill in all the plot holes created by the writer and director.

But maybe I'm just old-fashioned. :rigreen:

[Kenny]

Today @ 08:52 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=281548#post281548)
RightIdea:

As the movie-goer, I don't think I should have to work to fill in all the plot holes created by the writer and director.

True to an extent, but we also can't expect the writer and director to fill in every detail about the imagined universe either. Where is the line -- well, that's a bit subjective.

I wonder, though, how many gaps are filled in by the Animatrix stuff (I have a crappy internet connection for watching movie clips so I haven't seen any of them yet).


But maybe I'm just old-fashioned. :rigreen:


:ri: <--- This guy, old fashioned? :noid:

[Yog^sothoth]

the big thing with literary interpretation is that it's just that, an interpretation. I see a lot of buddhist dogma in Matrix Revolutions but what does that mean? Well, it means that i've been researching a lot of buddhist theory and myths and since this is on my mind I notice things that, if you look at it from my perspective, seem a lot like Neo, the "Cosmic Buddah" freeing the minds of the humans trapped in the matrix from their earthly desires.

But if I was looking at it when I was looking at Greek or any other religions dogma what would I see? A director and/or writer can only include what they know. It's up to the rest of us to interpret it's meaning.

Just a thought. Does this mean RightIdea is a lazy good for nothing brainless sack full of empty thoughts and forgotten ideals? :noid: of course not. Literary Interpretation can get tiring and when you get to be his age see if you want to go and look for anything other than your blue hair dye! :grin:

Movies do not have the luxury of being able to encompass the totality of a director or screenwriters dream. They have a budget, they have a time limit, there is the ability of an actor or actress. As with books one must look at the evidence given and interpret what it means. We attatch meaning to everything, personal meaning. Language is abstract, language is arbitrary this is a basic fact of our existence. In the end, these, and all movies, mean something different to all of us.

We can discus meaning till we're blue in the face but in the end we each know what the movie means to us.

But hey, it's fun.

I've rambled enough. Go like...complain about nudity in movie trailers or something.... :whack:

[bar Jonah]

Kenny:
:ri: <--- This guy, old fashioned? :noid:
I thought you might appreciate that irony. :riwink:

[bar Jonah]

Whatever, Yog. :lol:

I happen to love movies that make me think, such as "Memento."

I just don't like movies that make me work to make up for the movie-makers didn't do.

[Yog^sothoth]

memento doesn't make you think. it's pretty cut and dry....dry like my vermouth

[bar Jonah]

Uhm, yeah.

[Em7add11]

I found a pretty interesting "if I were the one writing" take on how the story should have evolved on Slashdot today:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=85612&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=7453742

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I agree interpretation/trying to understand what is going on makes a movie a lot more interesting.

For me when I saw MRel, I had already been reading what many others had said about it, much of it negative, for a while since the movie came out later in MX than the US. However, with all that in mind, when I saw it, I saw things differently and I saw it again and wrote up my interpretation right afterwards. I then shared it with others and many wrote to me saying it helped the movie make more sense. I even had some non-Christian friends tell me that they really liked my Christian interpretation of the movie...

So, yes there is speculation, but that's the point. When movies/tv give everything to you dried-cut then it doesn't stimulate one to think/reflect/debate on the meaning...

dlw

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Oh and I had to watch Memento a number of times before I understood it completely and more deeply.

dlw

[Ryokan]

My thing about Memento is: How did this guy know he had the condition? Even if it is just psychosomatic, wouldn't he have asked Stanley Ipkiss how he knew he had the condition? Don't you think it wuld have come up just once?
That said, I liked the movie.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Ryokan:

My thing about Memento is: How did this guy know he had the condition? Even if it is just psychosomatic, wouldn't he have asked Stanley Ipkiss how he knew he had the condition? Don't you think it wuld have come up just once?
That said, I liked the movie.

Apparently, he had encountered the condition prior to his accident and so knowledge about it was part of his longterm memory that he still had access to.

Stanley was real, it was the memories about Stanley's wife and her death that had been redone over as he subconciously coped with the real death of his wife.

dlw

[bar Jonah]

How could you not know you have the condition? He was aware of the condition before his accident, the symptoms, how it works... It had to be pretty obvious to him.

[Yog^sothoth]

BUT HE WOULDN"T KNOW THAT! he'd figure it out then forget. it's a viscous cycle. the movie made it...convienent, his disease. It was an interesting idea but not followed through.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Well he was capable of acquiring new longterm memories through repetition and habit. Of course, these new memories weren't exactly always accurate :grin: . Apparently, he must have been a very methodical person prior to his accident.

It's also possible that the trauma of really losing his wife affected him and he coped with it in light of his pre-existing memories...

dlw

[bar Jonah]

Love-Warrior:

Well he was capable of acquiring new longterm memories through repetition and habit. Of course, these new memories weren't exactly always accurate :grin: . Apparently, he must have been a very methodical person prior to his accident.

dlw
Exactly. And this isn't some explanation that someone has to create out of their imagination to explain things. This is clearly stated in the movie.

Arigato.

[WebToaster]

:thumb: Overall, its a good movie.

However, :thumbd: the whole Oracle character shift stunk. It reminded me of Darrin Stevens in Bewitched, which scarred me for life as a child. :smile: At least they just kept going with the Darrin debacle and left it for the viewer to suspend disbelief.

Revolutions added some weak dialogue around the shift and tried to say she "changed shells" or whatever. But if she changed shells, then why didn't they make her into a Mongolian or something, instead of looking almost the same?

But I shouldn't be too critical, overall it was great fun.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

RightIdea:

Exactly. And this isn't some explanation that someone has to create out of their imagination to explain things. This is clearly stated in the movie.

Arigato.

No, you have to tease it out, just the same...

As for the Oracle-Shift,
I believe the original actrice died and so they had to replace her. It wasn't part of the original script.

dlw

[geebob]

I saw it last night and I loved it. sometime I'll write what I thought about it and it's take on freedom and/or philosophy. perhaps that horse has been whipped but I think I've got a few ideas that haven't yet been discussed.


And now I shall gloat. Who suggested that the solution would be peace and harmony between the robots and people? moi. Perhaps some you other folks think you saw it coming, but you didn't post it (well, Kenny agreed, so perhaps he may claim he saw it coming). And hindsight is 20/20 but don't let that be confused for memories.




No massive illogical inconsistencies? There are people who had been in the Matrix for 50, 60, 70 years or more, even approaching a hundred. That means this iteration of the Matrix has been running that long or longer. But in that world, there were no computers or cell phones and insufficient phone lines for people to be getting out of the Matrix and going back in again to fight the system.

This is irrelevent. The real world technology that powered the matrix was represented metaphorically in the matrix. (I think John Sanders would be pleased)

Think about it. Programs as people. trains as a conduit between the matrix and exhile. The source as a big corporate office. The key maker grinding his keys away as if they were literal peices of metal.... and so on.



BTW, where does it come out that the swarming head thingy was "deus ex machina." And this isn't the same as the arcatect is it? I thought maybe they were the same person.

[Kenny]

Today @ 05:34 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=285217#post285217)
geebob:

And now I shall gloat. Who suggested that the solution would be peace and harmony between the robots and people? moi. Perhaps some you other folks think you saw it coming, but you didn't post it (well, Kenny agreed, so perhaps he may claim he saw it coming). And hindsight is 20/20 but don't let that be confused for memories.

Indeed I shall make that claim! :tongue:

[Kenny]

If I may quote myself, this is what I posted after my very first viewing. Some of it is right on and some of it is embarrassingly wrong.


05-21-2003 @ 12:40 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=102603#post102603)
Kenny:

I loved the movie. I give it an A.

For those disappointed that the Christian imagery didn’t seem to carry through, you shouldn’t be. The imagery was never explicitly Christian to begin with. Geebob is right in noticing the Buddhist connotations, but the best fit, by far, is Gnosticism. The manner in which Christian imagery is employed in the Matrix is very close to the manner in which it was employed by the second century Gnostics. The problem with the world is not human moral evil. The problem with the world is, rather, that it is the creation of an evil power which has conspired to trap human souls (or “minds” in Matrix terminology) in a delusion. What is required to be liberated is not repentance but Gnosis (a secret knowledge only shared by a select few) – in this case, knowledge of what the Matrix actually is. As the Christ figure, Neo enters the Matrix to combat those who are holding the keys and blocking the doors that have locked people in ignorance.

The second movie amply confirms the Gnostic theme. In it, we meet the Architect. Of course, this is obviously the demiurge of Gnostic mythology, the evil god who created the material world (often identified with the god of the Old Testament in Gnostic mythology). The Oracle is Sophia or Wisdom. In Gnostic mythology, Sophia’s desire to know the One results in chaos in the original wholeness and eventuates in the birth of the demiurge (okay, so the parallel isn’t exact here, but we shouldn’t expect it to be – in any case, it is still close enough to be very suggestive) ultimately resulting in the creation of the material world (hence, we find that the Oracle is the “mother” of the Matrix). The implicit animism hinted at by the Oracle (personal programs control the birds, the wind, etc.) as well as the disorder and conflict among some of the programs (or gods) also fit the Gnostic scheme very well.

As for the prophecy, I think it’s true. The prophecy said that when the One returned to the Source, the war would be over. But Neo hasn’t done that yet. He only spoke with the Architect. The Source is beyond the Architect and Neo hasn’t been there yet. So the prophecy has not yet been falsified. In the next movie, Neo will go to the Source and it will be fulfilled. I suspect, like Geebob, that the humans and machines will then enter into some sort of harmonious symbiotic relationship after the One returns to the Source (and thus restores the harmony in the original wholeness just as Gnostic mythology predicts).

Right on!


As for the temple scene, perhaps I’m off here, but I was reminded of the Golden calf scene in The Ten Commandments (of course, that scene was far less explicit, but sexual license was implied by the narration and we saw depictions of “lewd” dancing). Of course, we know that after the Golden Calf, judgment follows. Perhaps the connection was deliberate. The people of Zion, at that point, were trusting in a false hope that they would be saved from destruction. If I’m right, that mitigates Geebob’s criticism of the scene. This is just speculation on my part though.

Wrong! I must admit that I was one of the confused ones who thought Zion had been destroyed the first time I saw the movie and this colored my interpretation here drastically. As it stands, this scene was not an indictment of the people at all but a celebration of human freedom. After talking with others about the dialogue, though, I realized that I was wrong about Zion being destroyed and wrong about my interpretation of the scene.


As for Agent Smith, I think he fits into the overall plan. Smith himself said he had to fulfill his purpose. And the rest of the plot implies, that though the various programs and humans may be at odds with one another, their interactions are all coordinated by a larger deterministic scheme. Smith may have rebelled against the System, but so did Neo and we now know that Neo’s rebellion was part of the plan all along. Plus, there was a hint that Smith’s presence played a role in assisting the destruction of Zion and so His exit from the Matrix actually helped serve the end of the System.

Wrong again! Again, my mistaken understanding of the ending confused my interpretation. I also had not seen the trailer for the next movie (left early because I didn’t know it was at the end of Reloaded). When I did see the trailer (much later), I figured out that Smith was the cataclysmic system failure that the Architect spoke of and I told that to my wife. I never posted it here though, so you’ll just have to take my word for it.


However, I don’t think the Architect has it all under wraps. I believe the Oracle was sincere when she said that she wanted to help the humans and the machines live in harmony. I believe that what she set in motion by helping the Architect construct the Matrix was part of a broader plan to defeat the Architect and to bring about this end all along. I believe she is a fundamentally good power, but she has to play within the rules of the System just like all the other programs.

Yep, I was right about that one!


But, we’ll see…

As far as the determinism goes, as a Calvinist, compatibilist and metaphysical determinist, I found the philosophical issues raised very interesting. But I wasn’t looking to this movie for any sort of vindication of my theology (or any other orthodox Christian theology). The underlying world view is Gnostic in orientation and (because of the first movie) I expected that going in. As it goes, I expect libertarian free will to somehow win the day in the last film.

And, of course, LFW did win the day – “Because I choose to.”

God Bless,
Kenny

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Oh come on,

I know I'm DDW's favorite :flowers: , but I also get a some kudos, don't I? :highfive:

It's not so much peace and harmony, but a change in the balance of power driven by what seems to be a newfound respect by programs for Neo on account of his sacrifice. I doubt anyone could have foreseen that in its entirety.

We really don't know much at this point about the transformed nature of program/human relations post-Neo. What impact will the loss of so many human batteries have? There will still be tensions, no doubt, since if Zionites are thinning the ranks, the programs won't want all to be freed.

I was kind of hoping that humans would team up with programs more. Like, Zionites agreeing to share some of their energy in return for greater autonomy/protection from agents/sentinels...

Will more programs join Oracle in believing that relations can truly be different between programs and humans? Will there be greater tension between triad of Mervy, Arky and Oracle among programs? Will Mervy be revealed as having been one of the early Ones?

Anyways, those are some things that come to mind... Many questions that were raised and left unresolved in MRel.

dlw

[Yog^sothoth]

the architect is in charge of the matrix and the matrix only. dues ex machina (credited as such in the credits) is in charge of the robots.

[Doug TenNapel]

Today @ 06:04 AM [5rl=http8//www.theologyw$b.com/forum/shoVthread.php?s=&postid=28895#post286895]post located here[/url]
Yog^sothoth:

the architect is in charge of the matrix and the matRix only. dues ex machina (credited as such in the credits) is in charge of the robots.

How does the architect engineer the cyclical battles between Zion/Neo and the machines? He said there have been 6 cycles (or something like that) between the previous incarnations of Neo.

Also, I liked the "swarmy head thingy" as a better description for the deus ex machina. :lol:

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I believe the one's code was redistributed from the source into the human's born in the pods.

Arky helps get Zion off and running and probably guarantees that they are cut enough slack to stay in commission. Then, Oracle helps guide and discern who is "the one".

dlw

[geebob]

What impact will the loss of so many human batteries have? There will still be tensions, no doubt, since if Zionites are thinning the ranks, the programs won't want all to be freed.

I don't think that it would be the case that everyone would be ready to jump off the matrix. As they established in the first movie, some minds are too far gone to bring back to the real world.

I would think though that the if the new human/machine society could not continue to justify the human power cells as ethical, they would seek for an alternative power source and they would no longer "grow" humans in pods but would let the humans their die off naturally until no humans were plugged in (at least in a permanent way.

So in essence, I think it's a safe to say that they would work towards weening the machines off of human power, and likewise, they might ween the human race off of the matrix.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

If the programs could have found a better source of energy, wouldn't they have already done so? Unless they take perverse pleasure in the subversion of their former oppressors, but that doesn't sound like the thinking of a machine....

Perhaps, with human help, an alternative source may be found but I'm sure the W2s are committed to the notion that the future will require the further development of a more symbiotic relationship between humans and programs. Hence, my idea that humans agree to share their energy willingly with programs.

dlw

[Epoetker]

I think that eventually that certain programs, having been in contact with humans for so long, are going to want to meld with a human of their choice in the real world.

Think: The human provides the choice and bio-energy necessary to sustain and direct the machine, the machine provides the processing power and mechanical strength necessary for rebuilding tasks in the real world.

Contact with humans has near-irrevocably changed the majority of the programs in the Matrix. I predict many human-mechanical symbiotes to follow.

And much war over those people with regard to loyalties, actions, etc.

So presumably the next religion they're going to allude to is shamanism. (Will they call their companions 'avatars' or 'familiars?')

[geebob]

If the programs could have found a better source of energy, wouldn't they have already done so? Unless they take perverse pleasure in the subversion of their former oppressors, but that doesn't sound like the thinking of a machine....

If we could find an alternative fuel almost as good as and abundant as fossil fuels, wouldn't we have done so? No, technology is always moving foward. Also, the robots had another reason to keep the humans as batteries. It's to keep them in check.




I think that eventually that certain programs, having been in contact with humans for so long, are going to want to meld with a human of their choice in the real world.

d00d, that's an awsome notion!

[Da Lone-Warrior]

geebob:

If we could find an alternative fuel almost as good as and abundant as fossil fuels, wouldn't we have done so? No, technology is always moving foward. Also, the robots had another reason to keep the humans as batteries. It's to keep them in check.

So scarcity spurs innovation and lack thereof does the reverse? But they had scarcity problems already and I guess humans were the easiest source.

You can just as easily keep them in check by pulling the plug. The need for human/batteries led to more humans being created who would then need to be kept in check.

Also, I believe the Animatrix referred to human/progam syntheses already.

dlw

[Epoetker]

d00d, that's an awsome notion!

And also the only way to make a truly happy ending, the only way to set up a REALLY interesting sequel, [really strangely]the only way to recapture something resembling the Christian experience of 'accepting the spirit of Christ within you'[WHAT happened to Neo after his death and WHY was he taken away to a place of the machine's choosing? Think: In order to destroy Smith he had to touch every single human or program mind he controlled], and the most likely to occur in the real world in the near future. The APU Corps were the logical beginning. I'm beginning to think some of those sentinels are going to start to feel 'volition envy,' offering themselves as indentured servants to recent Matrix evacuees(who are now free to leave) in return for moments of direct interfacing with the human cortex, through the physical connection provided by the bio-plugs or otherwise.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I like that idea of programs choosing to bond with humans into symbiotic forms.

It captures the "evolutionary" twist of the film.

But, it shouldn't just be volition envy. I mean programs have developed human-like choices without such direct contact. Sati's parents, Oracle, Seraph(his leaving of Mervy's gang).

So the volition-envy can't be the only thing that drives the mutation. I would think perhaps necessity might. I.e., if Neo's sacrifice truly inspired the programs more of them would leave machine city and side with the humans, but they would probably need energy and so the symbiosis would be wherein the human would share some of their energy with the program in return for the program empowering them within and outside the Matrix.

think about it...

dlw

[geebob]

So scarcity spurs innovation and lack thereof does the reverse? But they had scarcity problems already and I guess humans were the easiest source.

yes, but innovation depends on progress and the innovations for power without humans may not have been available at the time.

plus, this is two birds with one stone.


You can just as easily keep them in check by pulling the plug. The need for human/batteries led to more humans being created who would then need to be kept in check.

The robots largely may have been fairly cold and calouse with regard to individuals, but they had an ethical sense, and they weren't without compassion for humans. The oracle is an example. The archetect implied that the programs could be trusted to give their word.

unplugging all the humans would have been genocide.

Also, the archetect spoke of the beauty and elegence of the first matrix, which implies that they have a fondness for human culture.




Think: In order to destroy Smith he had to touch every single human or program mind he controlled], and the most likely to occur in the real world in the near future. The APU Corps were the logical beginning.

that's an excellent point.

someone mentioned that they disagreed with what they had interpreted as the notion that in order to conquer sin you must be infected by it (or something likethat).

rather, neo taking on smith's programming could be likened to Jesus taking on our sins.



as for volition envy, I agree with love-warrior.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

geebob:

yes, but innovation depends on progress and the innovations for power without humans may not have been available at the time.

plus, this is two birds with one stone.

Presumably, knowledge for the production of other forms of energy could have been encapsulated in human-minds, inaccessible to programs. But the knowledge for the construction of the Matrix was available?


The robots largely may have been fairly cold and calouse with regard to individuals, but they had an ethical sense, and they weren't without compassion for humans. The oracle is an example. The archetect implied that the programs could be trusted to give their word.

Mervy also demonstrates that he is true to his word. When he saves his life by promising Neo would be freed. Once Oracle took her gun off of him, he could have gone back on his word.


unplugging all the humans would have been genocide.

When did programs promise they wouldn't do that?


Also, the archetect spoke of the beauty and elegence of the first matrix, which implies that they have a fondness for human culture.

Or maybe they just wanted Humans to be good batteries and not commit suicide and whatever...

dlw

[geebob]

Presumably, knowledge for the production of other forms of energy could have been encapsulated in human-minds, inaccessible to programs. But the knowledge for the construction of the Matrix was available?

I do't know what you're saying here.


When did programs promise they wouldn't do that?

They didn't. It's a reasonable speculation which I backed up.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

geebob:

I do't know what you're saying here.


I'm speculating over why the machines resorted to using humans as their main source of energy.


They didn't. It's a reasonable speculation which I backed up.

And I backed up my alternative view.
dlw

[Kenny]

Here’s my cynical take on the situation of the most of the humans in the Matrix, based in a Gnostic interpretation of the films. In the Gnostic scheme of things, only a very select, very elite group of people, those with the divine spark within them, ever awaken to the truth. The rest of humanity remains blissfully ignorant of the true nature of reality.

A translation of that idea into the world of the Matrix means that, for the most part, people living within the Matrix will continue to be oblivious. We found in the second movie that everyone within the Matrix was given a choice whether or not to accept the simulation, albeit at a subconscious level, and that 90% of them do accept it without any difficulty whatsoever. These people have already chosen to accept the simulation of the Matrix and are not concerned with discovering the truth. And, from their vantage point, why should they be? What does it matter, for instance, to the white suburban business man driving an SUV that the world is a simulation. Simulation or not, he’s still comfortable and thriving within it. It’s much easier to go home to his simulated suburban household financed by a six figure income than it is for him to face the harsh truth that is the real world – that he’s really living in a post-apocalyptic society where machines and humans have nearly destroyed the world through warfare and where the only place to survive outside of the Matrix is a grungy city near the Earth’s core. And, as long as there are people like that in the world, the machines will continue to have plenty of willing batteries.

The only difference that Neo made in the situation is that those who reject the simulation will be allowed to do so freely and without interference. Perhaps now the Machines will even assist the Zionites in locating these individuals and assist transitioning them from the Matrix into the real world. But, as far as the rest of the humans are concerned, both the machines and the Zionites will be perfectly happy to leave them to their delusion. The machines will be happy to have their batteries. The Zionites will be happy to have their fellow non-conformists. And, the rest of humanity gets exactly what it has chosen – to live in a comforting simulated reality instead of facing the harsh truth.

God Bless,
Kenny

[geebob]

no kenneth. I'm just going to have to put my foot down here!

[Kenny]

Today @ 02:40 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=299350#post299350)
geebob:

no kenneth. I'm just going to have to put my foot down here!

Just face the harsh truth geebob!
:whack:

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Hey Kenny can I repost your remarks about the importance of understanding gnosticism to understand all the blue-pills in the Matrix?

Did you note how at the beginning of MRev, after scanning for Neo, the guy comments, "Just blue-pills." That is one indication that not everyone connected to the Matrix died after Neo choice the door he did in MRel.

dlw

[Da Lone-Warrior]

This article starts off by evolutionary-based speculation that artificial intelligence is imminent, but then in simple language explains how humans have proven that they can still outsmart programs in the world of Chess. The author fails to mention that wrt the game Go, computer programs do even worse in breaking through the complexity and are much more beatable. There still probably is room for improvement, but artificial intelligence seems safely circumscribed in the world of science fiction for now.

dlw

Man vs. Computer: Still a Match

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, November 21, 2003; Page A45


Scoff if you will, but I stayed home Tuesday to watch a chess game. I don't get ESPN in my office, and I was not about to miss the tiebreaking final game of the man vs. machine epic: the best humanity has to offer, Garry Kasparov, vs. the best in silicon, X3D Fritz.



To most folks, all of this man-vs.-computer stuff is anticlimax. After all, the barrier was broken in 1997 when man was beaten, Kasparov succumbing to Deep Blue in a match that was truly frightening. Frightening not so much because the computer won but because of how it won, making at some points moves of subtlety. And subtlety makes you think there might be something stirring in all that silicon.

It seems to me obvious that machines will achieve consciousness. After all, we did, and with very humble beginnings. In biology, neurons started firing millions of years ago, allowing tiny mindless organisms to move about, avoid noxious stimuli, etc. But when enough of those neurons were put together with enough complexity, all of a sudden you got . . . us. A cartoon balloon pops up above that mass of individually unconscious neurons and says, "I exist."

In principle, why should that not eventually occur with silicon? The number of chips and complexity of their interaction will no doubt be staggering and may require centuries to construct. But I do not see why silicon cannot make the same transition from unconsciousness to consciousness that carbon did.

That's the bad news. In the meantime, the good news is that the latest man-machine chess matches are reason for some relief.

We assume that as computers get better, they are going to pull away from us, beating us more and more easily, particularly in such circumscribed logical exercises as chess. Not so. Since 1997 machines have gotten so much stronger that even off-the-shelf ones now routinely massacre the ordinary player. But the great players are learning to adapt. Genius is keeping up.

Given Moore's Law (computers double in power every 18 months), you would have expected that six years after Deep Blue's epic victory, humans would be helpless. In fact, they are not. Earlier this year, Kasparov played a match against Deep Junior and drew. And his four-game match with Fritz, the strongest chess program in the world, ended dead even: two draws and a win each.

Interestingly, in each game that was won, the loser was true to his nature. Kasparov lost Game 2 because, being human, he made a tactical error. Computers do not. When it comes to tactics, they play like God. Make one error, just one, and you're toast. The machine's exploitation of the error will be flawless and fatal.

In Game 3 the computer lost because, being a computer, it has (for now) no imagination. Computers can outplay just about any human when the field is open, the pieces have mobility and there are millions of possible tactical combinations. Kasparov therefore steered Game 3 into a position that was utterly static -- a line of immobile pawns cutting across the board like the trenches of the First World War.

Neither side could cross into enemy territory. There was, "thought" Fritz, therefore nothing to do. It can see 20 moves deep, but even that staggering foresight yielded absolutely no plan of action. Like a World War I general, Fritz took to pacing up and down behind its lines.

Kasparov, on the other hand, had a deep strategic plan. Quietly and methodically, he used the bit of space he had on one side of the board to align his pieces, preparing for the push of a single pawn down the flank to queen -- and win.

Meanwhile, Fritz was reduced to shuffling pieces back and forth. At one point, it moved its bishop one square and then back again on the next move. No human would ever do that. Not just because it is a waste of two moves. It is simply too humiliating. It is an open declaration to your opponent that you have no idea what you're doing, and that maybe checkers is your game.

The observers loved it. "This move showed that the computer doesn't feel any embarrassment," said grandmaster Gregory Kaidanov. It was a moment to savor. Eventually, sons of Fritz will feel embarrassment and much more, and why not: We are just cleverly arranged carbon and we feel -- but that's still centuries (decades?) away. In the meantime, Kasparov is showing that while we can't outcalculate machines, we can still outsmart them.

It even appears that we -- the best of us humans, that is -- will be able to hold our own for a while. We're safe. For now.

[Lazy Agnostic]

I don't care for science fiction; I've not yet seen "Star Wars".

I am curious, though, about why post#25 by Love-Warrior indicates at the bottom that it was Last edited by Em7add11 on 11-08-2003 at 03:52 PM.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Well, LA, de gustibus non est disputandum.

I posted a transcript of the dialogue between Neo and Architect the program that runs the Matrix, which is a program designed to keep humans docile and being good batteries for the programs that now run the world.

It included some profanity in the original. When I reposted it, I forgot about the rules of this board that prohibit the exhibition of profanity.

I, personally think it is one thing to use profanity against someone, but it is another thing to post dialogue or text that contains profanity, but which isn't vulgar.

However, they have chosen to interpret the rules of the forum differently than I would have.

dlw

[bar Jonah]

When in doubt, ask first.

[Lazy Agnostic]

That's what I was doin'.