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hansgeorg
12-19-2016, 08:25 AM
Sauron, Snow and KOMUNIST (Polish spelling)

If Tolkien had gone for a fully Welsh spelling of Sindarin, including when citing Quenya words, he could have changed Sauron to Sawron.

AU in Welsh has another sound. Haul means sun and sounds like German Heil.

As you may know, I have a little "obsession" with checking ASCII Code gematria. So, as it is simplest, block letters first:

S 83 80 3
A 65 140 8
W 87 220 15
R 82 300 17
O 79 370 26
N 78 440 34 = 474

Suppose one used normal capitalisation, S as blockletter, rest un lower case, one would get 474 + 160 (five times 32, one time for each minuscule) = 634.

Suppose one lower cased first letter too, as in email adresses or site url's, or in certain versions of PC printing, one would have 474 + 192 (six times 32 instead of just five times). It would be 666.

I leave you to read yourself about C P Snow, KOMUNIST and a few more indications.

Link here. (http://filolohika.blogspot.fr/2016/05/sauron-snow-and-komunist-polish-spelling.html)

Cow Poke
12-19-2016, 09:33 AM
Another numerologist! :doh:

Wiki this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology


Since my writing involves extensive use of wikipedia....

hansgeorg
12-19-2016, 09:42 AM
Citing :

"Numerology had not found favor with the Christian authority of the day and was assigned to the field of unapproved beliefs along with astrology and other forms of divination and 'magic'."

Reference : citation needed.

In other words, a hint at a certain canon of Nicea of sth like that could clear the doubt on whether calculating the number of the beast falls under the disapproval or not.

Next little piece of text is interesting:

"Despite this religious purging, the spiritual significance assigned to the heretofore "sacred" numbers had not disappeared; several numbers, such as the "Jesus number" have been commented and analyzed by Dorotheus of Gaza and numerology still is used at least in conservative Greek Orthodox circles.[4][5]"

This has references:

Η Ελληνική γλώσσα, ο Πλάτων, ο Αριστοτέλης και η Ορθοδοξία (in Greek). Acrobase.gr. Retrieved 2012-08-31.
http://www.acrobase.gr/showthread.php?t=25436

(A forum, and I don't understand Modern Greek, so cannot quite check this).

Αγαπητέ Πέτρο, Χρόνια Πολλά και ευλογημένα από Τον Κύριο Ημών Ιησού Χριστό (in Greek). Users.otenet.gr. Retrieved 2012-08-31.
http://users.otenet.gr/~mystakid/petroan.htm

Either way, numerological approaches to the number have been too prominent to be totally heterodox.

Cow Poke
12-19-2016, 09:44 AM
Just because there's a book in the Bible called "Numbers" doesn't mean God intended for us to be rooting around in numerology to find His Truth. That's why He has given us the Holy Spirit.

Faber
12-19-2016, 11:32 AM
I leave you to read yourself about C P Snow, KOMUNIST and a few more indications.[/URL]

Hey CP, is he suggesting that you are a snowflake?

Cow Poke
12-19-2016, 11:45 AM
Hey CP, is he suggesting that you are a snowflake?

Would not surprise me in the least. The boy has challenges.

Sparko
12-19-2016, 11:49 AM
so you change the spelling for no other reason than to try to fit your theory and it still doesn't add up to 666?

FAIL.

hansgeorg
12-19-2016, 12:28 PM
so you change the spelling for no other reason than to try to fit your theory

With Sauron/Sawron there is another reason.


and it still doesn't add up to 666?

sawron does.

hansgeorg
12-19-2016, 12:29 PM
it still doesn't add up to 666?

If the upper case add up to 474 and you can add 6*32, it does.

Cow Poke
12-19-2016, 12:30 PM
If the upper case add up to 474 and you can add 6*32, it does.

wow

Sparko
12-19-2016, 01:20 PM
If the upper case add up to 474 and you can add 6*32, it does.
:haha:

Meh Gerbil
12-19-2016, 02:17 PM
The book is 'Revelation of Jesus Christ' not 'Revelation of the Beast'.
The book is first and foremost to reveal Christ.

To use it as a deck of tarot cards is to misuse it.

DesertBerean
12-19-2016, 02:29 PM
*snicker*

Chrawnus
12-19-2016, 10:19 PM
So, is hansgeorg saying that saur-, excuse me, sawron is the beast/antichrist, or what? :huh:

Raphael
12-19-2016, 11:13 PM
666+666+666+6+6+6=2016

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 02:35 AM
So, is hansgeorg saying that saur-, excuse me, sawron is the beast/antichrist, or what? :huh:

Not exactly.

I am saying that fantasy writers have been given us because they have some kind of insight into apocalyptic things.

If you analyse Silmarillion and especially Akallabêth, you will find that Morgoth corresponds pretty well to Satan, which would leave Sauron as the demon Abaddon, who is also probably the demon who will be possessing Antichrist.

That said, I don't think either Tolkien or Rowling were sufficiently bad to be well acquainted with the Antichrist as such. I am noting this as a side confirmation on the use of ASCII Code as to Apocalypse 13:18.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 02:36 AM
Just because there's a book in the Bible called "Numbers" doesn't mean God intended for us to be rooting around in numerology to find His Truth. That's why He has given us the Holy Spirit.

If you read chapter 13, of Apocalypse, you will find that there is a very clear hint about using a bit of gematria.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 02:50 AM
Hey CP, is he suggesting that you are a snowflake?

I don't think CP can answer you. I think he is in Hell.

Also, as far as wiktionary can be trusted, I very much prefer snowflakes (now I looked the word up) over C. P. Snow.

He was a socialist, a science believer and considered specialised science knowledge as civilisational equivalent of having a culture.

He was also pro-industrial and anti-ruralist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._P._Snow

I am not deploring his work as a whodunnit writer, just his influence by "The Two Cultures".

Wiki quotes a passage, which as my memory from the book is rather correctly quoted:


A good many times I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists. Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is about the scientific equivalent of: 'Have you read a work of Shakespeare's?'

I now believe that if I had asked an even simpler question – such as, What do you mean by mass, or acceleration, which is the scientific equivalent of saying, 'Can you read?' – not more than one in ten of the highly educated would have felt that I was speaking the same language. So the great edifice of modern physics goes up, and the majority of the cleverest people in the western world have about as much insight into it as their Neolithic ancestors would have had.

In other words, he believes in Progress, he believes we are more insightful than "our neolithic ancestors".

A Church Father said not to consider anyone as Antichrist just because his name added up - apparently a lot of names did in Greek gematria! Quite a lot fewer in ASCII Code! - but that attitude is typefying a real spirit of deception, a deception by chronological snobbery.

I think that Polish KOMUNIST (add 32 by freely chosen means) and Spanish USURARIO (dito) are sufficiently evil in themselves to give confirmation about the method and also hints about the character of the man.

Also check out that JAMESBOND (omit the space) adds up to 659.

And now do the addition:

659
007

With my main suspect, the "James Bond" track is very relevant. In Russian, they did not have James Bond films in his youth, but he joined the KGB because of his fandom of JB's Soviet Russian counterparts.

In philosophy, I would not want to be caught redhanded in being (like, alas, Shunya from time to time) a Kantian. In Lithuanian KANTIANAS adds up to ... well use ASCII Code.

But I'll end here, before you accuse me of a Gish gallop!

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 02:53 AM
If the upper case add up to 474 and you can add 6*32, it does.


:haha:

As computer expert, you should know that adding either a space or making an upper case lower case does add 32. Meaning that in precisely ASCII Code, the path is fairly direct from 474 to 666.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 02:54 AM
The book is 'Revelation of Jesus Christ' not 'Revelation of the Beast'.
The book is first and foremost to reveal Christ.

To use it as a deck of tarot cards is to misuse it.

I am not very familiar with how tarot readers do, but I think there is a fairly clear instruction in that chapter.

Meh Gerbil
12-20-2016, 04:12 AM
I am not very familiar with how tarot readers do, but I think there is a fairly clear instruction in that chapter.
You missed the anti-Christ by several years, my friend.

Ronald = 6
Wilson = 6
Reagan = 6

See: http://americanvision.org/3670/the-antichrist-hoax/

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 05:21 AM
You missed the anti-Christ by several years, my friend.

Ronald = 6
Wilson = 6
Reagan = 6

See: http://americanvision.org/3670/the-antichrist-hoax/

I don't think so.

He was born in the family Reagan, a family name with six letters.

In these cases certain parents, like his, whether from massonic flirting with 666 or from Jewish superstition about 18 will give their children, especially male ones, two first names with six letters each.

This is also the case with the man who developed the bar code.

If a man who fulfilled that criterium of name could simply therefore be meant, that would make parents able to chose the names to make their sons Antichrist - or candidates.

I think that precisely ASCII Code and precisely in the generation which was born before it was invented is the main clue - because that way the parents could not know what they were fulfilling.

On the "Ronald Wilson Reagan" theorem (and in certain families also by Greek alphabet or Hebrew alphabet gematria) parents would be able to put a hex on their children by the choice of names.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 05:46 AM
http://americanvision.org/3670/the-antichrist-hoax/


1) Antichrist is not a single person. That is, “antichrist” is a descriptive term for a group, or a type of person, not a title for a special single person. John had no intention of describing a single world ruler who would come and fill some prophesied role of “the” Antichrist.

Actually, that is false and does not follow from the verse.

What Tradition means by "The Antichrist" and what St John means in that verse (checking:1 John 2:18) by the use of the plural form is not the exact same concept.

There is one Antichrist who will be thrown alive into the lake of fire, and he is one of the many Antichrists. So is The False Prophet who will be doing him company.

I do not think that Leo Tolstoy was The Antichrist. But I think that Pobodonoststev ("procurator of the Holy Synod" in Czarist clergy) was perfectly right to call him "a heretic and an antichrist" as in one of the many, though not necessarily one of those two.

The Biblical term is not "The Antichrist" so much as The Beast or The Man of Sin (though that could also refer to The False Prophet).


2) These antichrists came and went during the time John wrote. We are not awaiting their appearance in our near future. “And now,” “Even now,” or “So now,” these many antichrists “have come,” said John. Their appearance on the scene was a done deal.

The small antichrists were not done with when St John went to his glory.

They were around in his time, a little later there were others, like the Persian Mani, yet later further others, like Arius, and perhaps also Nestorius (it is also possible Nestorius was only so for a while but repented, but let's us say Nestorius as judgeable by what he had done up to Council of Ephesus, not Nestorius as he was perhaps redeemed after it), later still there were six in the upshot around 1517, amounting to four wellsprings of diverse Protestant sects:

1) Martin Luther, 2) Huldrich Zwingli and 3) John Oecolampad, 4) Thomas Müntzer and the two Sozzini, 5) Lelio with his nephew 6) Fausto.

Later still you have Voltaire, but before him you have Reverend Anderson, 1717.

Later still you have Roncalli, Montini and Wojtyla.

All these small antichrists lead up to the final couple, though Dimond Brothers thinks Wojtyla has already fulfilled part of what traditionally is thought of The Antichrist, in Assisi 1986 and by the assassination attempt which failed. And though Pope Michael thinks Montini was it, by changing the Liturgy.

Even as late as this, there are more options than Bergoglio and Putin, though these are my main suspects. There may be a kind of "highlander syndrome" ("in the end only one is left" ... er, only two are left) about it.

But going by ASCII Code and known persons, there are not that many. Some few more. And I have been calculating ASCII Code values on names for a few years by now, since Bergoglio struck me as suspect. If it were very common to get that number by ASCII Code, I would be aware by now. It is not.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 05:48 AM
3) John, inspired by the Holy Spirit, writing in Scripture, interpreted the manifestation of these antichrists as proof he and his audience were living in the “last hour” or “end time.” Unless the “last hour” has lasted for nearly two thousand years (a large percentage of human history for a waning hour), then we can safely say that the “end time” somehow pertained to John’s era, not ours. This should force some hard thinking about the doctrine of the last days, at least for some people.

The last hour precisely HAS lasted for 2000 years, nearly. Christ came in the fulness of time, then from Apostolic times to Doomsday is "the last hour", in which a full manifestation of the final Antichrist is only possible after the great apostasy. Something which some of us identify with things like Vatican II and Assisi 1986.

Sparko
12-20-2016, 06:56 AM
Not exactly.

I am saying that fantasy writers have been given us because they have some kind of insight into apocalyptic things.

If you analyse Silmarillion and especially Akallabêth, you will find that Morgoth corresponds pretty well to Satan, which would leave Sauron as the demon Abaddon, who is also probably the demon who will be possessing Antichrist.

That said, I don't think either Tolkien or Rowling were sufficiently bad to be well acquainted with the Antichrist as such. I am noting this as a side confirmation on the use of ASCII Code as to Apocalypse 13:18.

ASCII code did not even exist when Tolkien wrote his books. It did not exist when Revelation was written. Why would it be relevant to anything? Why would Tolkien's books be relevant? Yes he was a Christian and he did have Christian themes in his books, and he probably did base some of his characters on Satan or demons, like the orcs who are fallen elves (angels). But it is fantasy. Not prophesy. And it would have zero to do with ASCII. You are merely shoehorning your ideas into the text with a sledgehammer. This is known as eisegesis.

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsəˈdʒiːsəs/; from the Greek preposition εἰς "into" and the ending from the English word exegesis, Greek ἐξήγησις, which in turn is derived from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out") is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text. This is commonly referred to as reading into the text. The act is often used to "prove" a pre-held point of concern to the reader and to provide him or her with confirmation bias in accordance with his or her pre-held agenda. Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis is the process of drawing out the meaning from a text in accordance with the context and discoverable meaning of its author, eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisegesis

Sparko
12-20-2016, 07:03 AM
As computer expert, you should know that adding either a space or making an upper case lower case does add 32. Meaning that in precisely ASCII Code, the path is fairly direct from 474 to 666.But you are just fiddling with numbers and letters and punctuation till you come up with a code or method that matches your already decided conclusion.

I just made up a code that proves you are the anti-christ. It uses Pirate Code (invented by me!)

h = 600
a = 60
n = 6
s = nothing. zero. nada.
Total: 666 in decimal.

Therefore you are the antichrist. I have proven it! Repent, demon! :mob:

Meh Gerbil
12-20-2016, 07:13 AM
I don't think so.
He was born in the family Reagan, a family name with six letters.
If a man who fulfilled that criterium of name could simply therefore be meant, that would make parents able to chose the names to make their sons Antichrist - or candidates.
On the "Ronald Wilson Reagan" theorem (and in certain families also by Greek alphabet or Hebrew alphabet gematria) parents would be able to put a hex on their children by the choice of names.
You're excluding Reagan for entirely subjective reasons.
You claim he couldn't be it because the naming of the child would be intentional when it is just as likely a fulfillment of prophecy. (1)

You don't have a reason to exclude him other than 'it doesn't fit my preconceived model'.

This is what numerologist do - they look through thousands of combinations of numbers to get to the magical '666' and exclude any totals that don't match their preset agenda. The possibilities of getting to that number take the most convoluted and ridiculous routes.

See the example on Visa here: http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/barcodes/words.html

Your initial post where you substitute out a 'S' for a 's' and a 'u' out for a 'w' is an embarrassment.
Tying it all to ASCII is flat out silly - this ranks as one of the saddest attempts at numerology I've seen in quite some time.
It isn't clever, it isn't creative, it is silly.









NOTES
-------------------------------------------------------------
1: Both claims are idiotic.

Meh Gerbil
12-20-2016, 07:16 AM
The last hour precisely HAS lasted for 2000 years, nearly. Christ came in the fulness of time, then from Apostolic times to Doomsday is "the last hour", in which a full manifestation of the final Antichrist is only possible after the great apostasy. Something which some of us identify with things like Vatican II and Assisi 1986.
John was speaking of present circumstances as indicated by the text.
Your argument is with him - to extend an last hour to '2000' years is silly.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to redefine words and the clear meaning of the text.

John was writing to comfort a persecuted church.
One has to wonder what comfort they'd find in a hidden code that couldn't be deciphered until ASCII was developed.
Stop being silly.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 07:19 AM
But you are just fiddling with numbers and letters and punctuation till you come up with a code or method that matches your already decided conclusion.

I just made up a code that proves you are the anti-christ. It uses Pirate Code (invented by me!)

h = 600
a = 60
n = 6
s = nothing. zero. nada.
Total: 666 in decimal.

Therefore you are the antichrist. I have proven it! Repent, demon! :mob:

Problem with that code : you just made it up.

I am not making ASCII Code up. Upper case A is 64+1=65. Lower case a is 64+32+1. Either you say it is 97 or you say it is 65+32. In every computer using Latin alphabet over the world.

DEC OCT HEX BIN Symbol HTML Number HTML Name Description
32 040 20 00100000 & # 32 ; Space
...
65 101 41 01000001 A & # 65 ; Uppercase A
...
97 141 61 01100001 a a Lowercase a

http://www.ascii-code.com/

Meh Gerbil
12-20-2016, 07:21 AM
Persecuted Believer 1: "According the Apostle John the mark of the Beast is 666'.
Persecuted Believer 2: "I wish my arms weren't chained to this wall so I could develop computers and ASCII code".
Persecuted Believer 1: "You have a full hour, get on it."
Persecuted Believer 2: "When the guard said we'd be executed in an hour he meant 60 minutes, not 2,000 years."
Persecuted Believer 1: "Oh, yeah, I keep getting those confused.

Meh Gerbil
12-20-2016, 07:24 AM
Problem with that code : you just made it up.
I am not making ASCII Code up. Upper case A is 64+1=65. Lower case a is 64+32+1. Either you say it is 97 or you say it is 65+32. In every computer using Latin alphabet over the world.
ASCII code is as made up as Ronald Wilson Reagan's name.
Again, you're just excluding stuff because you don't like it.

Tying all of this to the name of a fictional bad guy, after butchering his name, is poor numerology.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 07:28 AM
John was speaking of present circumstances as indicated by the text.

The era of the New Covenant was present then and is still present now.


Your argument is with him - to extend an last hour to '2000' years is silly.

Nevertheless, the Church has done so.


I'm sorry, but you don't get to redefine words and the clear meaning of the text.

Your argument is with the Church and the Church Fathers.


John was writing to comfort a persecuted church.
One has to wonder what comfort they'd find in a hidden code that couldn't be deciphered until ASCII was developed.
Stop being silly.

The purpose you state was perhaps part of why God gave St John the apocalypse, but the purpose of God was certainly beyond that and for our instruction.

And it helps us a lot to understand it is about ASCII Code if it is, and it would have helped St John a lot and perhaps did so (if he saw things in real prophecy!) to know it was sth other than Greek gematria.

In Greek gematria the probably first reader or first reader outside Patmos of the Apocalypse, Marcus Cocceius Nerva could have felt very ill at ease.

Even so, I am not sure St John explained it to him.

M. NEPOYA is the back then Greek transcription of M. Nerva! (M. Nerva as in subject of a sentence would be M. NEPOYAC, with an extra sigma).

You count the Greek values. M=40, N=50, together 90 ...

I think an exiled man could only write to one man, to the emperor, and when doing so usually did so asking for mercy. Writing the Apocalypse and sending it to Nerva was a very brave deed. But I am not sure even St John, given new strength as eagles' wings, would have dared unless he had known it did not refer to "Marce Nerva" in Greek transcription.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 07:32 AM
ASCII code is as made up as Ronald Wilson Reagan's name.

But unlike that president's name which does not add up to six-HUNDRED six-TY six, it involves, like Greek and Hebrew gematria, a way of obtaining for some names that sum.


Again, you're just excluding stuff because you don't like it.

No, but because there is a solid reason to consider it less relevant.


Tying all of this to the name of a fictional bad guy, after butchering his name, is poor numerology.

I am not sure Rowling wasn't butchering the name of a now known world leader.

Besides, I am not trying to be a good numerologist, but to use what knowledge I have or what understanding I have to calculate the number of a name.

Meh Gerbil
12-20-2016, 07:40 AM
The era of the New Covenant was present then and is still present now.
The New Covenant isn't the same thing as the 'Last Hour'.


Nevertheless, the Church has done so.
Your argument is with the Church and the Church Fathers.
When the church fathers distort the clear meaning of the text then the church fathers are wrong.
BTW, the church fathers have a history of being wrong about the anti-Christ: http://www.biblelight.net/fathers-on-antichrist.htm


The purpose you state was perhaps part of why God gave St John the apocalypse, but the purpose of God was certainly beyond that and for our instruction.You've made another assumption here.
The letter is clearly directed to the 7 churches which were literal congregations in existence at that time.
To add additional meaning to the text is to read something into it that isn't there.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 07:43 AM
You're excluding Reagan for entirely subjective reasons.
You claim he couldn't be it because the naming of the child would be intentional when it is just as likely a fulfillment of prophecy. (1)
NOTES
-------------------------------------------------------------
1: Both claims are idiotic.

Considering the number of people who have three names of six letters, it is clearly NOT idiotic to claim it is intentional.

And fulfilments of prophecy usually do not come about because people exactly intend to.


You don't have a reason to exclude him other than 'it doesn't fit my preconceived model'.

Let's see.

Prophecy of Cyrus fulfilled, but parents weren't trying to fulfil it, since they hadn't read Isaiah.

Prophecy of Emanuel fulfilled, but St Joseph didn't literally use that name, so wasn't trying to fulfil it either.

Why should a prophecy about Antichrist be fulfilled by someone obeying the plan of his parents when naming him?


This is what numerologist do - they look through thousands of combinations of numbers to get to the magical '666' and exclude any totals that don't match their preset agenda. The possibilities of getting to that number take the most convoluted and ridiculous routes.

Where have I done so with ASCII Code?


See the example on Visa here: http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/barcodes/words.html

"We are told that the ancient Chaldeans, during the time of the Babylonian Empire when the prophetic Book of Daniel was written, had a numerological technique that can be applied to the english alphabet today. In that system, each succeeding letter of the alphabet was equal to 6 more than the one before it. In our system A would equal 6, B would equal 12, etc. as shown in the chart below..."

I exclude that system, because unlike Greek gematria and Hebrew gematria, this was not a system used in everyday life for counting by letters of alphabet, and also, unlike ASCII Code in computers, it is not a case of "numbers" (one can nearly say computers "read" ASCII Code as binary numerals) being used to express letters either.

Also, not clear who those Chaldeans would have been, since Babylonians weren't using alphabetic, but cuneiform writing.


Your initial post where you substitute out a 'S' for a 's' and a 'u' out for a 'w' is an embarrassment.
Tying it all to ASCII is flat out silly - this ranks as one of the saddest attempts at numerology I've seen in quite some time.
It isn't clever, it isn't creative, it is silly.

Since distinction between upper and lower case is posterior to the times of St John, and also those between I and J and between U, V and W, this is not so.

I write my first name "Hans" in everyday life. But my passport has it as "HANS" and my handle here as "hans".

Your embarrassment tells me you are not a very great grammarian.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 07:47 AM
The New Covenant isn't the same thing as the 'Last Hour'.

Ver. 18. It is the last hour. That is, according to the common interpretation, the last age of the world, from the coming of Christ to the day of judgment, and the end of the world, which St. Paul calls the end and consummation of ages. (Hebrews ix. 26.)

And as you have heard that antichrist (the great antichrist) cometh, or is to come in this last age: now there are already many antichrists; i.e. as the word signifies, many adversaries to Christ, who are forerunners of the great and last antichrist. (Witham)

Many antichrists; that is, many heretics, enemies of Christ and his Church, and forerunners of the great antichrist. (Challoner)

St. Cyprian says all are called antichrists that have divided themselves from the charity and unity of the Catholic Church. (Ep. lxxvii. ad Magnum.)

Whereby we know that it is the last hour, it being foretold that many false prophets should rise in the latter days. (Matthew xxiv. 11. &c.) (Witham)

http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id276.html


When the church fathers distort the clear meaning of the text then the church fathers are wrong.
BTW, the church fathers have a history of being wrong about the anti-Christ: http://www.biblelight.net/fathers-on-antichrist.htm

The Church Fathers have a history of being right.


You've made another assumption here.
The letter is clearly directed to the 7 churches which were literal congregations in existence at that time.
To add additional meaning to the text is to read something into it that isn't there.

I am well aware the letter is by St John directed to the seven Churches. It is just extremely possible that the only mail man who could reach them from Patmos was the Emperor in Rome.

It is not adding additional meaning to the text, it is adding a circumstance about where and when the text was written, which is clearly a good conjecture from what is known about it.

Meh Gerbil
12-20-2016, 07:47 AM
But unlike that president's name which does not add up to six-HUNDRED six-TY six, it involves, like Greek and Hebrew gematria, a way of obtaining for some names that sum.Gematria isn't a valid way to interpret the Scriptures.
Nobody actually communicates this way - do you talk to your loved ones by putting numerical codes into your sentences?

The reason you have both Greek and Hebrew mentioned is because when one language fails to add up you can switch to another, and if that fails you can switch to ASCII.
Give me numerology and a dozen languages to choose from and I can come up with any theory you want and prove it.

Go ahead, pick a random person from history and I'll prove he is the anti-Christ using the system you've proposed.


No, but because there is a solid reason to consider it less relevant.
Only because you've chosen random criteria - criteria that change as the theory requires - creating a system so plastic as to be utterly meaningless.


Besides, I am not trying to be a good numerologist, but to use what knowledge I have or what understanding I have to calculate the number of a name.
This has been done a thousand times in 2,000 years with a thousand different candidates.
Each thought he had the answer - each was wrong.

I'm sorry, but slaughtering names to get the alphabet set up so that it matches well against any number of possible computer character models to somehow arrive at 666 is insanity.

The Bible is about Jesus Christ and our need to learn to love Him and be like Him.
It isn't a secret decoder ring full of ciphers for us to somehow predict the future.

Sparko
12-20-2016, 07:48 AM
Problem with that code : you just made it up. so?


I am not making ASCII Code up. someone did.

I think my Pirate Code will become as famous as ASCII one day. You can use it to prove anything or anyone is the Beast or the Anti-Christ. It is amazing! :yes: No more hunting around. Just decide who you want to be the antichrist, and use my code to prove it!

Go on, give it a try. Give me a name you want to be equal to 666.

any except "Sparko" that can never be equal to 666. It always adds up to 777.

Cow Poke
12-20-2016, 07:50 AM
I can't believe a serious discussion is being had over ASCII - American Standard Code for Information Interchange - numbers to understand Hebrew and Greek. :doh:

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 07:52 AM
BTW, the church fathers have a history of being wrong about the anti-Christ: http://www.biblelight.net/fathers-on-antichrist.htm

From your link:

"the early church fathers quoted above generally expected the Antichrist to rise to power very soon after the fall of pagan Rome"

Er, no. After the fall of ROME.

As in 1918 or 1917, depending on whether Austria or Russia was most Roman.

And we are after that event now.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 07:54 AM
I can't believe a serious discussion is being had over ASCII - American Standard Code for Information Interchange - numbers to understand Hebrew and Greek. :doh:

It has not occurred to you that there are three different number/letter systems.

The old ones being Hebrew and Greek where each letter stands for a numeral.

The new one being ASCII Code, to begin with certainly meant only for America but now used all over the world for the most common alphabet of all, the Latin one. The one which lacked a numeric system covering typically all letters of a name back then.

Sparko
12-20-2016, 07:56 AM
Since distinction between upper and lower case is posterior to the times of St John, and also those between I and J and between U, V and W, this is not so.

I write my first name "Hans" in everyday life. But my passport has it as "HANS" and my handle here as "hans".

Your embarrassment tells me you are not a very great grammarian.

Your full name is not Johann? Hans is short for Johann

rogue06
12-20-2016, 07:56 AM
But you are just fiddling with numbers and letters and punctuation till you come up with a code or method that matches your already decided conclusion.

I just made up a code that proves you are the anti-christ. It uses Pirate Code (invented by me!)

h = 600
a = 60
n = 6
s = nothing. zero. nada.
Total: 666 in decimal.

Therefore you are the antichrist. I have proven it! Repent, demon! :mob:
I thought that in your pirate code every letter and number equals "R" and any number of R's translates to "give me your bacon"

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 07:59 AM
any except "Sparko" that can never be equal to 666. It always adds up to 777.

S Uppercase S = 83 080 3
p Lowercase p =112 190 5
a Lowercase a = 97 280 12
r Lowercase r =114 390 16
k Lowercase k =107 490 23
o Lowercase o =111 600 24 = 624

Sparko
12-20-2016, 07:59 AM
I can't believe a serious discussion is being had over ASCII - American Standard Code for Information Interchange - numbers to understand Hebrew and Greek. :doh:Do you remember Blue Triangle? He used numerology to prove I was Beelzebub. :yes:

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 07:59 AM
Your full name is not Johann? Hans is short for Johann

Hans and Johann are two versions of short for Johannes / Johannem.

Sparko
12-20-2016, 08:00 AM
S Uppercase S = 83 080 3
p Lowercase p =112 190 5
a Lowercase a = 97 280 12
r Lowercase r =114 390 16
k Lowercase k =107 490 23
o Lowercase o =111 600 24 = 624That is your code. I was talking about using MY code.

Sparko
12-20-2016, 08:02 AM
Hans and Johann are two versions of short for Johannes / Johannem.OK. so is that your full first name then? Johannes?

BTW I am half german. My mother was from Bavaria. :cheers:

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 08:03 AM
Your full name is not Johann? Hans is short for Johann

J Uppercase J = 74 070 4
o Lowercase o =111 180 5
h Lowercase h =104 280 9
a Lowercase a = 97 370 16
n Lowercase n =110 480 16
n Lowercase n =110 590 16 606

Cow Poke
12-20-2016, 08:03 AM
It has not occurred to you that there are three different number/letter systems.

The old ones being Hebrew and Greek where each letter stands for a numeral.

The new one being ASCII Code, to begin with certainly meant only for America but now used all over the world for the most common alphabet of all, the Latin one. The one which lacked a numeric system covering typically all letters of a name back then.

I'm an IT professional - I KNOW what ASCII is - and you're showing your ignorance by calling it the "ASCII code", because that translates to the American Standard Code for Information Interchange code. That's redundant.

What, exactly, do you expect to find by forcing ASCII onto Scripture?

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 08:04 AM
Johannes? :cheers:

:cheers: - I sign Ioannes when signing a Latin text.

Cow Poke
12-20-2016, 08:05 AM
Do you remember Blue Triangle? He used numerology to prove I was Beelzebub. :yes:

I don't remember Blue Triangle, but I've come across a number of really nutty numerologists, and they're just so numerically and intellectually wrong about so much! :smile:

Meh Gerbil
12-20-2016, 08:06 AM
From your link:

"the early church fathers quoted above generally expected the Antichrist to rise to power very soon after the fall of pagan Rome"

Er, no. After the fall of ROME.

As in 1918 or 1917, depending on whether Austria or Russia was most Roman.

And we are after that event now.
Austria and Russia weren't pagan in 1918.
They were Christian societies, ya doofus.

Sparko
12-20-2016, 08:06 AM
I'm an IT professional - I KNOW what ASCII is - and you're showing your ignorance by calling it the "ASCII code", because that translates to the American Standard Code for Information Interchange code. That's redundant.

Says the guy from the Department of Redundancy Department.

Cow Poke
12-20-2016, 08:06 AM
Austria and Russia weren't pagan in 1918.
They were Christian societies, ya doofus.

Can you please numerologize doofus so he grasps the concept?

Cow Poke
12-20-2016, 08:07 AM
Says the guy from the Department of Redundancy Department.

Yes, an expert on redundancy! :smug:

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 08:08 AM
Johannes?

J 74 070 4
o 79 140 13
h 72 210 15
a 65 270 20
n 78 340 28
n 78 410 36
e 69 470 45
s 83 550 48 598

Add normal 32's for lower case, add 224:

598
224
822

Btw, add just two 32's, adds 64, lands me on 662, just under 663 (for HGLUNDAHL) and some under 670 (for HANSGEORG).

Sparko
12-20-2016, 08:08 AM
I thought that in your pirate code every letter and number equals "R" and any number of R's translates to "give me your bacon"And of course, "Bacon" translates in to "food of the Gods" which means that to those who are not blessed, it is a false idol, which would be the devil, which is the antichrist, which is 666. So everything except the blessed gets translated to 666. Simple.

Meh Gerbil
12-20-2016, 08:08 AM
G 71
O 79
L 76
D 68
I 73
L 76
O 79
C 67
K 75
S 83
= 747

But we subtract 81 (9x9) because 9 is a holy number for many religious around the world.

747 - 81 = 666!

Sparko
12-20-2016, 08:09 AM
:cheers: - I sign Ioannes when signing a Latin text.so why would your passport have "HANS" on it? It would have your full name.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 08:10 AM
I'm an IT professional - I KNOW what ASCII is - and you're showing your ignorance by calling it the "ASCII code", because that translates to the American Standard Code for Information Interchange code. That's redundant.

What, exactly, do you expect to find by forcing ASCII onto Scripture?

ASCII "Code" is redundant, ok. But still actually used, since one speaks of other "codes" (Morse and some more).

Forcing it onto Scripture? I don't see any forcing being done. If St John on Patmos received a genuine prophecy, it can have involved for him genuine foreknowledge of ASCII.

It is for instance telling that he and his disciples were not being precise about it being "Greek gematria" or "Hebrew gematria", which could have happened if he had been talking just from things commonly known back then.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 08:12 AM
Austria and Russia weren't pagan in 1918.
They were Christian societies, ya doofus.

Problem is, the Church Fathers didn't say "after Pagan Rome". They said "after Rome".

And Austria and Russia were representing Christian Rome up to WW-I.

Sparko
12-20-2016, 08:14 AM
Problem is, the Church Fathers didn't say "after Pagan Rome". They said "after Rome".

And Austria and Russia were representing Christian Rome up to WW-I.Why do you think that? Because it fits your ideas, so it must be so?

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 08:14 AM
Can you please numerologize doofus so he grasps the concept?

d 68 060 8
o 79 130 17
o 79 200 26
f 70 270 26
u 85 350 31
s 83 430 34 464

464
192
656

Not too bad!

rogue06
12-20-2016, 08:14 AM
I'm an IT professional - I KNOW what ASCII is - and you're showing your ignorance by calling it the "ASCII code", because that translates to the American Standard Code for Information Interchange code. That's redundant.

What, exactly, do you expect to find by forcing ASCII onto Scripture?
Want to bet he also says ATM machine (Automatic Teller Machine machine)?

rogue06
12-20-2016, 08:17 AM
Problem is, the Church Fathers didn't say "after Pagan Rome". They said "after Rome".

And Austria and Russia were representing Christian Rome up to WW-I.
Um, Russia is Eastern Orthodox.

rogue06
12-20-2016, 08:20 AM
Yes, an expert on redundancy! :smug:
An expert specialist on repetitive redundancy :yes:

Sparko
12-20-2016, 08:20 AM
Want to bet he also says ATM machine (Automatic Teller Machine machine)?The ones you have to use a PIN number on?

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 08:20 AM
Why do you think that? Because it fits your ideas, so it must be so?

Why I think the Church Fathers were not saying "Pagan Rome"?

Look at the quotes!

Austria and Russia representing Christian Rome?

Rome was divided into West and East.

Western power was legitimately accepted by Franks, who in 800 received the Imperial dignity from the Pope, because the Eastern "Emperor" Irene (Empress was only said of Queens consort, not of ruling ones in Byzantium) was acting as a Barbarian (even if she was a saint) in sentencing her son to be blinded, because he was an iconoclast.

Charlemagne's Empire was divided, Imperial dignity went East within the West, that is to the part called among other things Germany, known as Holy Roman Empire of Germanic Nation. This retained the Christian Roman dignity up to 1806, and in successor states, Imperial dignity went to Austria which retained it to 1918.

East was temporarily down (from W pov) under Irene, temporarily under Latin rule, but more or less functioning to 1453. After that its role was assumed by the former Grand Dukes, now Czars of Russia. Up to "october" (Julian calendar!) 1917.

So, Christian Rome lasted till 1918 or 1917 or both years, whichever of Austria and Russia best fits the role of a Christian Rome.

rogue06
12-20-2016, 08:21 AM
The ones you have to use a PIN number on?
Egg-zactamundo

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 08:22 AM
Um, Russia is Eastern Orthodox.

You mean was. When it was so, abortion was really a nono.

Now Putin and Kirill claim it is impossible to totally ban abortion in Russia.

hansgeorg
12-20-2016, 09:19 AM
Why I think the Church Fathers were not saying "Pagan Rome"?

Look at the quotes!

St. Augustine of Hippo (345 - 430) Doctor of the Church
City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19

For what does he [Paul] mean by "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way: and then shall the wicked be revealed?" [2 Thess 2] I frankly confess I do not know what he means. ... However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, "Only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way," refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, "Only he who now reigneth, let him reign until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall the wicked be revealed:" no one doubts that this means Antichrist.

Source: http://newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm

_____________________________________

The testimony is clear, the early church fathers quoted above generally expected the Antichrist to rise to power very soon after the fall of pagan Rome as prophesied in the book of Daniel, chapter 7. At the time that Paul wrote to the church at Thessalonica, the Caesars ruled, and until they were removed they restrained the Antichrist from rising to prominence and exercising his power. This is why Paul could not speak openly about the restrainer in his letter, because he did not want to invite unnecessary persecution by identifying Rome openly and predicting its demise. Pagan Rome's rule ended in 476 A.D., so the above fathers were writing, in some cases, hundreds of years before the event, demonstrating that they understood prophecy, at least on that point.

_____________________________________

Note that St Augustine says nothing of Rome being "pagan", in his time the Caesars were Catholics (some would say Orthodox), as he was.

Note also, when the Czar was taken away, Lenin took his place. When the Austrian Emperor was taken away from Hungary (where he was King), Bela Kun took a place which in years coincides very well with the Antichrist verses of Apocalypse 19.

Note also, in post-Czarist Russia, Vladimir Lenin was the first Vladimir, or Vladimir A, Vladimir Putin is the second Vladimir, or Vladimir B.

And check out VLADIMIRB, now.

Chrawnus
12-20-2016, 08:39 PM
I can't believe a serious discussion is being had over ASCII - American Standard Code for Information Interchange - numbers to understand Hebrew and Greek. :doh:

I think hansgeorg is the only one who's taking this discussion seriously. :shrug:

Chrawnus
12-20-2016, 08:40 PM
Your full name is not Johann? Hans is short for Johann

It's also it's own proper name.

Cow Poke
12-20-2016, 09:11 PM
I think hansgeorg is the only one who's taking this discussion seriously. :shrug:

I should hope so.

hansgeorg
12-21-2016, 03:40 AM
It's also it's own proper name.

In German and Swedish you are right.

In Latin or Greek both of them are short for Ioannes/Ιωάννης

hansgeorg
12-21-2016, 03:42 AM
I think hansgeorg is the only one who's taking this discussion seriously. :shrug:


I should hope so.

If Meh Gerbil left, you may be right.

Sparko
12-21-2016, 06:30 AM
I think it is hilarious that a guy who refuses to acknowledge that zero is a number, wants to use binary numerology.

Cow Poke
12-21-2016, 07:18 AM
I think it is hilarious that a guy who refuses to acknowledge that zero is a number, wants to use binary numerology.

I'm sure you remember in the old days when the first hard drive (or device) in a chain was called "Drive 0", then "Drive 1", "Drive 2", etc..... And, as your implying, 0 one of only TWO states in binary digital logic.

Cow Poke
12-21-2016, 07:19 AM
If Meh Gerbil left, you may be right.

:smile: Apparently, American culture is not the only thing you don't get.

hansgeorg
12-21-2016, 07:50 AM
I think it is hilarious that a guy who refuses to acknowledge that zero is a number, wants to use binary numerology.

I am not refusing zero the status of a useful numeral.

Say A = 65, 64+1

01000001

The ones are numerals designating by position respectively 64 and 1. Which are numbers.

The zeros only designate the positions which have no number attached to them.

Cow Poke
12-21-2016, 07:54 AM
I am not refusing zero the status of a useful numeral.

So, if you billed me for $1,000 worth of work (assuming you could produce that much work), I could give you a check for $1, and you'd be happy? The heck with all those pesky zeroes!

hansgeorg
12-21-2016, 08:02 AM
So, if you billed me for $1,000 worth of work (assuming you could produce that much work), I could give you a check for $1, and you'd be happy? The heck with all those pesky zeroes!

No, you could give me a check for 1 k$, or a check for M $ - supposing the bank would accept such designation.

It is only in Arabic numerals that zeros are necessary to designate position and position differentiates on whether "1" means I, X, C or M.

Cow Poke
12-21-2016, 08:11 AM
No, you could give me a check for 1 k$, or a check for M $ - supposing the bank would accept such designation.

It is only in Arabic numerals that zeros are necessary to designate position and position differentiates on whether "1" means I, X, C or M.

:doh: This one doesn't even merit a serious response.

hansgeorg
12-21-2016, 08:26 AM
:doh: This one doesn't even merit a serious response.

Because you don't have any.

I am not disputing the status zero had between Fibonacci and the decision to call it a number.

1 means I when standing alone, X when standing before one zero, C when standing before two zeros and so on (even beyond Roman numerals).

2 means II, XX, CC, MM according to how many if any zeros come after.

All this means is that zero is a numeral, not that it is so because it is a number.

Sparko
12-21-2016, 08:26 AM
:doh: This one doesn't even merit a serious response.as usual, his rationalizations make ZERO sense. He told me fractions don't exist because nobody would sell half an apple and it would spoil too fast.

Sparko
12-21-2016, 08:28 AM
All this means is that zero is a numeral, not that it is so because it is a number.

Numeral - a figure, symbol, or group of these denoting a number.

hansgeorg
12-21-2016, 08:29 AM
He told me fractions don't exist

I told you they were not numbers, that is quite another matter.

Half an apple cannot be sold among a number of apples, for reason stated. So, half an apple is not counting how many apples.

I never said it doesn't exist or occur!

BUT, that one would be better placed on the thread "my hero, zero", wouldn't it?

hansgeorg
12-21-2016, 08:29 AM
Numeral - a figure, symbol, or group of these denoting a number.

Well, zeros do denote numbers, not in themselves, but when joined to other Arabic numerals.

Cow Poke
12-21-2016, 09:01 AM
Well, zeros do denote numbers, not in themselves, but when joined to other Arabic numerals.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one". That's "zero" righteous. That's purdy durn significant!

hansgeorg
12-21-2016, 09:14 AM
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one". That's "zero" righteous. That's purdy durn significant!

The writing doesn't state one can count the non-extant righteous to the number of zero.

The question being on whether "not one" or "none" counts as number, not whether that phrase is sometimes used appropriately, which we agree it does.

Here is the thread for that one:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?13009-My-Hero-Zero/page15

Meanwhile, back to topic.

Ilyitch Ulyanov spells Iljitj Uljanov in the Swedish transcription.

Know the ASCII value for IULJANOV? 616

Cow Poke
12-21-2016, 09:24 AM
The writing doesn't state one can count the non-extant righteous to the number of zero.

No, the writer trusts that the reader has a brain.

Sparko
12-21-2016, 09:37 AM
The writing doesn't state one can count the non-extant righteous to the number of zero.

The question being on whether "not one" or "none" counts as number, not whether that phrase is sometimes used appropriately, which we agree it does.

Here is the thread for that one:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?13009-My-Hero-Zero/page15

Meanwhile, back to topic.

Ilyitch Ulyanov spells Iljitj Uljanov in the Swedish transcription.

Know the ASCII value for IULJANOV? 616

So. You sure have a lot of anti-christs with your method. must get confusing.

hansgeorg
12-22-2016, 07:32 AM
So. You sure have a lot of anti-christs with your method. must get confusing.

While there is one upcoming (or already here) Antichrist in the singular, there is also a lot of runners up.

I would say Vladimir Iljitj Uljanov was a runner up to the final one.

Precisely as most would agree that Nero (666 in Greek gematria, in Greek vocative), or Domitian (666 in ASCII, in Latin vocative) were such runners up.

hansgeorg
12-22-2016, 07:33 AM
No, the writer trusts that the reader has a brain.

Lots of people with brains have previously noted that nothing is not a countable amount of things.

See that other thread.

Here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?13009-My-Hero-Zero/page15

Sparko
12-22-2016, 07:37 AM
While there is one upcoming (or already here) Antichrist in the singular, there is also a lot of runners up.

I would say Vladimir Iljitj Uljanov was a runner up to the final one.

Precisely as most would agree that Nero (666 in Greek gematria, in Greek vocative), or Domitian (666 in ASCII, in Latin vocative) were such runners up.So how do you use your numerology to distinguish between "runners up" and "the real thing?"

hansgeorg
12-22-2016, 07:56 AM
So how do you use your numerology to distinguish between "runners up" and "the real thing?"

I don't!

It is a given in Fathers, that just having a name that adds up to 666 is NOT enough to be the final Antichrist (as valid with ASCII as back then with Greek gematria*).

I have favourite suspects for the real thing, those being Putin and Bergoglio for Beast and False Prophet.

But I have other suspects even now, supported by ASCII or other, however, these two are outstanding for other reasons.

BERGOGLIO and Polish spelling of genitive accusative WLADIMIRA are the only upper case (more obvious than lower case) presently alive people with 666 directly, no help of either 32's in ASCII or numerals added like 007 adds to the 659 of JAMESBOND or II adds to the 664 of ELIZABETH and MARGARETE (who anyway spells it MARGARETHE, an H too much for that suspicion, even adding II as +2) or a III addaded as +3 to the 663 of BILLGATES.

If you spell VLADIMIR non-Polish, he is of course VLADIMIRB, if B can stand for II (as it does in Greek regnal numerals), and Putin is that.

Church Fathers mentioned "LATEINOS" and "TEITAN" as per Greek gematria, and one can decompose Vladimir Putin in a significant way here:

vLAdimir puTIN - > LATIN = LATEINOS

vladIMIR putin - > IMIR = YMIR = a Norse name for a Titan (Icelandic has ceased to distinguish Y and I).

Even if you take away these letters, you get a meaningful remainder:

VlaDimir PUtin - > VD PU. Now, VD is Swedish abbreviation for Executive Director (Verkställande Direktör) and Pu is Swedish for Pooh of Pooh Corner.

And Vladimir Putin is a kind of executive and the country he runs has some similarity to Winnie the Pooh.

Those are supplementary hints which make him and Bergoglio "ideal suspects" to my mind, but what I know of ASCII also gives each of them a good escape clause.

1) Putin's native language is Russian, spelled with Cyrillic. Now, I tried several combinations in Unicode for Cyrillic, and none added up to a multiple of 666 (Unicode values are too high for even two letters to add up to only 1*666), so if he retired into exclusively Russian or Russian and Serbian affairs, he would be lots better off, numerologically;
2) Bergoglio as a surname means "from the city Bergoglio" - but that city has by now changed name to Borgoglio. And BORGOGLIO is 676. All Bergoglio should do is resign and then change the name in his Argentinian passport.

* Confer, for instance, M. NEPOYA! - a decent man who liberated St John from Patmos and in Church history is known as "honest Nerva" for that.

Sparko
12-22-2016, 08:10 AM
I don't!

It is a given in Fathers, that just having a name that adds up to 666 is NOT enough to be the final Antichrist (as valid with ASCII as back then with Greek gematria*).

I have favourite suspects for the real thing, those being Putin and Bergoglio for Beast and False Prophet.

But I have other suspects even now, supported by ASCII or other, however, these two are outstanding for other reasons.

BERGOGLIO and Polish spelling of genitive accusative WLADIMIRA are the only upper case (more obvious than lower case) presently alive people with 666 directly, no help of either 32's in ASCII or numerals added like 007 adds to the 659 of JAMESBOND or II adds to the 664 of ELIZABETH and MARGARETE (who anyway spells it MARGARETHE, an H too much for that suspicion, even adding II as +2) or a III addaded as +3 to the 663 of BILLGATES.

If you spell VLADIMIR non-Polish, he is of course VLADIMIRB, if B can stand for II (as it does in Greek regnal numerals), and Putin is that.

Church Fathers mentioned "LATEINOS" and "TEITAN" as per Greek gematria, and one can decompose Vladimir Putin in a significant way here:

vLAdimir puTIN - > LATIN = LATEINOS

vladIMIR putin - > IMIR = YMIR = a Norse name for a Titan (Icelandic has ceased to distinguish Y and I).

Even if you take away these letters, you get a meaningful remainder:

VlaDimir PUtin - > VD PU. Now, VD is Swedish abbreviation for Executive Director (Verkställande Direktör) and Pu is Swedish for Pooh of Pooh Corner.

And Vladimir Putin is a kind of executive and the country he runs has some similarity to Winnie the Pooh.

Those are supplementary hints which make him and Bergoglio "ideal suspects" to my mind, but what I know of ASCII also gives each of them a good escape clause.

1) Putin's native language is Russian, spelled with Cyrillic. Now, I tried several combinations in Unicode for Cyrillic, and none added up to a multiple of 666 (Unicode values are too high for even two letters to add up to only 1*666), so if he retired into exclusively Russian or Russian and Serbian affairs, he would be lots better off, numerologically;
2) Bergoglio as a surname means "from the city Bergoglio" - but that city has by now changed name to Borgoglio. And BORGOGLIO is 676. All Bergoglio should do is resign and then change the name in his Argentinian passport.

* Confer, for instance, M. NEPOYA! - a decent man who liberated St John from Patmos and in Church history is known as "honest Nerva" for that.

so if you can't tell if someone is actually the antichrist with your method, then what good is it?

Cow Poke
12-22-2016, 08:22 AM
Lots of people with brains have previously noted that nothing is not a countable amount of things.

See that other thread.

Here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?13009-My-Hero-Zero/page15

That's just goofy. If I'm counting inventory in a hardware store, I can see I normally have 10 hammers, and today I count 0. I need to order 10.

How many hammers do I have in stock? 0. That's a number.

hansgeorg
12-22-2016, 08:51 AM
so if you can't tell if someone is actually the antichrist with your method, then what good is it?

Well, obeying the injunction of "He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast."

And watching out for the clear suspects.

hansgeorg
12-22-2016, 08:51 AM
That's just goofy. If I'm counting inventory in a hardware store, I can see I normally have 10 hammers, and today I count 0. I need to order 10.

How many hammers do I have in stock? 0. That's a number.

That is not properly speaking counting.

Cow Poke
12-22-2016, 08:53 AM
That is not properly speaking counting.

Yes it is. "How many hammers do we have in inventory?" answer - "zero". You're just being extremely dense because you need it to fit your goofy theory, or you've made a claim from which you can't back down.

We've already given you the example that in the computer/electronic world, devices are even named starting with 0, 1, 2, etc...

Cow Poke
12-22-2016, 08:54 AM
Well, obeying the injunction of "He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast."

And watching out for the clear suspects.

Well, that first part rules you out. :shrug:

hansgeorg
12-22-2016, 09:07 AM
Yes it is. "How many hammers do we have in inventory?" answer - "zero". You're just being extremely dense because you need it to fit your goofy theory, or you've made a claim from which you can't back down.

We've already given you the example that in the computer/electronic world, devices are even named starting with 0, 1, 2, etc...

When the numbers of hammers are very low, one doesn't even do counting to know how many there are. If there are three, I see there are three, I don't count that.

So, how would seeing the relevant inventory empty involve any COUNTING of the non-extant hammers?

As to computer world, they have NAMED things according to their number theory, which if it is the wrong one doesn't matter much for the actual devices' functioning.

hansgeorg
12-22-2016, 09:07 AM
Well, that first part rules you out. :shrug:

If that were true, I didn't understand that. :see:

Cow Poke
12-22-2016, 09:09 AM
When the numbers of hammers are very low, one doesn't even do counting to know how many there are. If there are three, I see there are three, I don't count that.

So, when there are NONE, what does one write down in the field for 'quantity'? You have obviously never done inventory.


So, how would seeing the relevant inventory empty involve any COUNTING of the non-extant hammers?

Because, as part of the inventory, you would enter an "amount" in the "quantity" field. That "amount" would be 0 if there were no hammers.


As to computer world, they have NAMED things according to their number theory, which if it is the wrong one doesn't matter much for the actual devices' functioning.

:lmbo:

Sparko
12-22-2016, 09:17 AM
Well, obeying the injunction of "He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast."

And watching out for the clear suspects.

Well apparently if your method doesn't actually work to identify the actual beast, then you don't have understanding, nor can you count the number of the beast.

It would be about as useful if the bible said, The name of the beast shall be, ...Bob.

Then you came up with a system that identified everyone named Rob, Bob, or Robert in the world (and in fiction apparently.) What good would it do? You would not know who the beast is. Your system is useless.

hansgeorg
12-22-2016, 09:26 AM
(number theory posted to appropriate thread) (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?13009-My-Hero-Zero/page15)


Well apparently if your method doesn't actually work to identify the actual beast, then you don't have understanding, nor can you count the number of the beast.

Do you have that from back in JW? They say that 666 doesn't refer to a particular man but to human culture in general, basically (you know the details better than I do)?


It would be about as useful if the bible said, The name of the beast shall be, ...Bob.

Then you came up with a system that identified everyone named Rob, Bob, or Robert in the world (and in fiction apparently.) What good would it do? You would not know who the beast is. Your system is useless.

If there were exactly one world leader named Bob and he started doing bad things, it would make him a clearcut suspect.

And having someone as a suspect at least preserves me from idolising him (and some are more or less starting to do that with both of the guys I mention) and keep a watchout if ever in the future I should be required to have a tattoo saying "Bob" on my forehead. Now, Putin and Bergoglio haven't gone that far - yet.

As to Robert, here is acquittal of that being by itself a relevant name:

R 82 080 2
O 79 150 11
B 66 210 17
E 69 270 26
R 82 350 28
T 84 430 32 462

A six letter name can be relevant, if upper case adds up to 456 (add 160 for five lower case and you get 616) or to 474 (add 192 for six lower case, and you land on 666). With six letters adding up to 442, you need to have two words, like "the cog" where you add 7 32's both for lower case and for space, 442+224= ...

Cow Poke
12-22-2016, 09:28 AM
And having someone as a suspect at least preserves me from idolising him (and some are more or less starting to do that with both of the guys I mention) and keep a watchout if ever in the future I should be required to have a tattoo saying "Bob" on my forehead. Now, Putin and Bergoglio haven't gone that far - yet.

You COULD just focus on following Jesus! :idea: There are a LOT more scriptures that tell us that than there are to have us chasing down the antichrist with goofy theories.

hansgeorg
12-22-2016, 09:35 AM
You COULD just focus on following Jesus! :idea: There are a LOT more scriptures that tell us that than there are to have us chasing down the antichrist with goofy theories.

Now, following Jesus usually involves doing what one does well, in everyday life. And that is different for different people.

When I say the two guys are my favourite suspects, I mean I am not "chasing" to find more suspects. Not as if I expected to find someone else very soon.

I am however regularly checking so that the method doesn't damn too many diverse people. It does only if having 666 in your name were a guarantee of being Antichrist, but it is not. And even so, not that many.

But if one of the Hovinds were the false prophet and Queen Silvia the beast, that would also figure. I think that less realistic, though.

Cow Poke
12-22-2016, 09:57 AM
Now, following Jesus usually involves doing what one does well, in everyday life.

Yeah, that's why he told the fishermen, "you guys just keep doing what you're doing, cause you are good as fishing in everyday life - don't worry about that 'follow me' thing". :lolo:

Sparko
12-22-2016, 09:59 AM
(number theory posted to appropriate thread) (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?13009-My-Hero-Zero/page15)



Do you have that from back in JW? They say that 666 doesn't refer to a particular man but to human culture in general, basically (you know the details better than I do)?



If there were exactly one world leader named Bob and he started doing bad things, it would make him a clearcut suspect. and if there were only one person who's name added up to 666 in ascii then it would make him a clearcut suspect (maybe) - yet apparently even fictional characters end up with 666 in your theory (if you change their names) so you have multiple suspects. Might as well just say anyone could be the beast. And where is the man of perdition who will be revealed BEFORE the beast?

hansgeorg
12-23-2016, 03:13 AM
and if there were only one person who's name added up to 666 in ascii then it would make him a clearcut suspect (maybe) - yet apparently even fictional characters end up with 666 in your theory (if you change their names) so you have multiple suspects. Might as well just say anyone could be the beast. And where is the man of perdition who will be revealed BEFORE the beast?

Fictional and past characters are test pilots.

Man of perdition not equal to beast?

Well, could be Paul VI/Antipope Montini ...?

Could be Bergoglio in role of false prophet?

hansgeorg
12-23-2016, 03:18 AM
Yeah, that's why he told the fishermen, "you guys just keep doing what you're doing, cause you are good as fishing in everyday life - don't worry about that 'follow me' thing". :lolo:

For one thing, they were called to a task beyond the common one.

For another, it sometimes did involve either fishing or mending nets.

You wondered how ASCII works out for either Satan or Santa? I read that in the feed.

Neither gets 666. I wonder whether Apollyon or Abaddon does - it would be cool if Apollyon did so in Greek gematria and Abaddon in Hebrew, but that would be known, so is not very probable.

It's a "human number" not a "demonic number" (one probable reason why demon Sauron and not-very-human Voldemort won't fit very well).

I haven't tested these two for ASCII, but they are more probable candidates than Satan, since probably that is the demon of Antichrist.

hansgeorg
12-23-2016, 03:32 AM
and if there were only one person who's name added up to 666 in ascii then it would make him a clearcut suspect .... so you have multiple suspects.

There wasn't back than and isn't now. Vocatives KAICAP NERON and M NEPOYA added up, and Nerva was clearly not THE beast in character (though possibly in office, back before Constantine cleaned the Imperial dignity up).


Might as well just say anyone could be the beast.

No, this is a negative test - if you really can't get a name to fit this number, he's not the guy. That's why I am sure (relatively, depending on ASCII being relevant system of gematria and depending on names' meanings in translations not counting as name) that while Obama might mean or imply Antichrist, he is not Antichrist.

It is also a fairly restrictive one.

I have been testing name after name whenever I was bored or waiting for a library to open, nearly, for years, and it is easier to end up a little to the side of it.

I have among fictional ones gotten two "apocalyptic crooks" (with spelling changes, as seen), and two secret agents, one being James Bond if 007 doesn't count by 48+48+55 but by 7, and one being Scrameustache, from space, with name adding up to 1332.

All four rather confirming what I also on other grounds can consider as character of Antichrist in real life. In reality on a cosmic and occult level, a bad magician, openly a heroic and popular agent and space travel fanatic. With loads of humanism - but no ascetic or monkish mood.

Among real life suspects, I have named most - so far BENRHODES is not an international statesman, and VON TRAPP are just performing artists, and as long as the latter stay out of doctrinal teaching or politics, I think they are very safe, as if they were nobodies.

Noteworthy that BENRHODES, just like BERGOGLIO, is an immigrationist.


And where is the man of perdition who will be revealed BEFORE the beast?

You might want to check the passage, I think it was the apostasy which was happening before the man of perdition (=beast or false prophet) could be revealed. And in 1986, with ASSISI prayer meeting, Putin and Bergoglio were both nobodies. Especially on the international plane.

Cow Poke
12-23-2016, 08:43 AM
For one thing, they were called to a task beyond the common one.

As are all Christians.

hansgeorg
12-23-2016, 10:46 AM
As are all Christians.

No, they were the first priests.

We are (at least I am) laymen (a layman).

Cow Poke
12-23-2016, 10:49 AM
No, they were the first priests.

We are (at least I am) laymen (a layman).

:huh: The fishermen were the first priests?

Sparko
12-24-2016, 01:33 PM
Fictional and past characters are test pilots.

Man of perdition not equal to beast?

Well, could be Paul VI/Antipope Montini ...?

Could be Bergoglio in role of false prophet?

2 thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


basically until he is revealed you are doing nothing but deceiving us.

Faber
12-24-2016, 01:53 PM
No, they were the first priests.

We are (at least I am) laymen (a layman).

To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. (Revelation 1:5-6, NASB)

hansgeorg
12-26-2016, 04:36 AM
:huh: The fishermen were the first priests?

Of the new Covenant, second to Christ.

Besides, some were not fishermen, but one a Levite who had sunk to tax collecting, one a zealot which may mean he had back ground as anti-Roman terrorist (or sympathiser with such).


2 thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


basically until he is revealed you are doing nothing but deceiving us.

Unless of course I am right that one of the above is the man of sin already revealed.

I have other criteria than just ASCII for the two.


To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. (Revelation 1:5-6, NASB)

Any baptised is a priest in one way, but ordained priests are on top of that priests in another way too.

Faber
12-26-2016, 07:19 AM
Outside of the high priests of the old covenant, which has been abolished, I see no indication that there are different levels of priesthood. We all have complete access to the Father through Jesus.

hansgeorg
12-26-2016, 09:01 AM
Outside of the high priests of the old covenant, which has been abolished, I see no indication that there are different levels of priesthood. We all have complete access to the Father through Jesus.

Then you explain the position of the eleven.

If, for instance, any person who has sinned after Baptism has, in himself, without any intermediate, "complete accuss to the Father through Jesus", what about John 20?20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands, and his side. The disciples, therefore, were glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 He said therefore to them again; Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them, and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 *Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose you shall retain, they are retained. 24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

We see from the last bit that we are talking of the twelve disciples. Here is the Haydock comment on the verses:


Ver. 21. As the Father hath sent me. The word mission, when applied to our Saviour Christ, sometimes signifies his eternal procession from the Father, and sometimes his mission, as he was sent into the world to become man, and the Redeemer of mankind: the first mission agrees with him, as the eternal Son of God; the second, as man, or as both God and man. The mission which Christ here gives his apostles, is like this latter mission, with this great difference, that graces and divine gifts were bestowed on Christ, even as man, without measure: and the apostles had a much lesser share in both these missions. See St. Augustine, lib. iv. de Trin. chap. xix. xx. tom. 4. p. 829. and seq. (Witham)

Jesus Christ here shews his commission, and so giveth power to his apostles to forgive sins, as when he gave them commission to preach and baptize throughout the world, he made mention of his own power. Hence, whosoever denies the apostles, and their successors, the right of preaching, baptizing, and remitting sins, must consequently deny that Christ, as man, had the power to do the same. St. Cyprian, in the 3rd century, ep. lxxiii. says: "for the Lord, in the first place, gave to St. Peter, on whom he built his Church, super quem ædificavit Ecclesiam, the power that what he loosed on earth, should be loosed also in heaven. And after his resurrection, he speaks also to his apostles, saying, as the Father sent me, &c. whose sins you shall forgive," &c. Why, on this occasion, passing over the other apostles, does Jesus Christ address Peter alone? Because he was the mouth, and chief of the apostles. (St. Chrysostom, de Sacerd. lib. ii. chap. 1.)

Ver. 22. Receive ye the Holy Ghost. It was said, (John vii. 39.) that the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not glorified. The sense must needs be, that the holy Spirit was not given in that solemn manner, nor with so large an effusion of spiritual gifts and graces, till the day of Pentecost, after Christ's ascension: but the just, at all times, from the beginning of the world, were sanctified by the grace of the Holy Ghost, as no doubt the apostles were, before this time. Now at this present, he gave them the power of forgiving sins. (Witham)

Some say, that our Saviour did not then confer the Holy Ghost on his disciples, but only prepared them for the receiving of the Holy Ghost. But surely we may understand, that even then they received some portion of spiritual grace, the power, not indeed of raising the dead, and working other miracles, but of forgiving sins. (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxxv. in Joan.)

St. Cyril of Alexandria, speaking of the remission of sins, promised in this text, asks, "How then, or why, did Christ impart to his disciples a power, which belongs to the divinity alone? It seemed good to him, that they, who had within themselves his divine Spirit, should likewise possess the power of forgiving sins, and of retaining such as they judged expedient; that Holy Spirit, according to his good pleasure, forgiving and retaining, through the ministry of men." (In Joan. lib. xii. chap. 1.)

Ver. 23. Whose sins you shall forgive,[2] &c. These words clearly express the power of forgiving sins, which, as God, he gave to his apostles, and to their successors, bishops and priests, to forgive sins in his name, as his ministers, and instruments, even though they are sinners themselves. For in this, they act not by their own power, nor in their own name, but in the name of God, who as the principal cause, always remitteth sins. This is generally allowed to be done by God's ministers in the sacrament of baptism, as to the remission of original sin; and the Catholic Church has always held the same of God's ministers, in the sacrament of penance. (See the Protestant Common Prayer Book, in the Visitation of the Sick.)

Whose sins you shall retain, they are retained: by which we see, that to priests is given a power to be exercised, not only by forgiving, but also by retaining; not only by absolving and loosing, but also by binding, by refusing, or deferring absolution, according to the dispositions that are found in sinners, when they accuse themselves of their sins. From hence must needs follow an obligation on the sinner's part, to declare, and confess their sins in particular, to the ministers of God, who are appointed the spiritual judges, and physicians of their souls. A judge must know the cause, and a physician the distemper: the one to pronounce a just sentence, the other to prescribe suitable remedies. (Witham)

See here the commission, stamped by the broad seal of heaven, by virtue of which, the pastors of Christ's Church absolve repenting sinners upon their confession. (Challoner)

Ver. 24. Thomas ... was not with them. Yet no doubt the like power of forgiving sins was given to him, either at this time or afterwards. See St. Cyril. (Witham)

http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id113.html