Is it Christian to pray for God's Wrath?

[Carl Smuda]

I know, LORD, that a person's life is not his own. No one is able to plan his own course. So correct me, LORD, but please be gentle. Do not correct me in anger, for I would die. Pour out your wrath on the nations that refuse to recognize you--on nations that do not call upon your name. For they have utterly devoured your people Israel, making the land a desolate wilderness. (Jeremiah 10:23-25) A couple of things here, if anyone wishes to comment-and all are invited to comment. God is at work in YOU to will and to do of His good pleasure.
:rockon: First, Before our Lord was made flesh Jeremiah knew that a person's life is not their own. Well, the Apostle Paul said we are not our own we have been bought with a price. No matter what our life is not our own. Second, it isn't for us to direct our steps. So there is this tension between what we want to do and what the good Lord wills. (Blessed be Him!). Third, is it okay for us to ask God to pour His wrath on nations that do not like us? e.g. Saints in the U.S. asking God to lay some wrath on Osama ben laudin? :bonk:

[Gavin]

There are some even more harsh passages in the psalms about the psalmist wanting God to pour out his wrath upon people.

But in the New Testament you have all that bit about loving your enemies and so on.

I would say the principle of loving the sinner, hating the sin, albeit trite, is sound biblical advice.

I hope for Osoma Ben Ladin's repentance (if the apostle Paul could be saved, Ben Ladin could), but if I was in the army I would still kill him if given the chance.

The golden rule is always a good general principle to follow when you are not sure.

That is really scatter-brained, but maybe it provokes some thoughts. :smile:

[Salus]

I've often debated this in my head, Carl. Like Gavin said, we are instructed to love our enemies. But there are many times I wonder "how?" and feel myself starting to pray for the Lord to take his vengeance now instead of later. It takes some effort to stop me from praying that and actually pray for those, who need the Lord's vengeance, to come to repentance.

[GrayPilgrim]

I agree we are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. However, Wisdom literature does show us that their are those whoa re enemies of God. I think it is fitting to pray for God's wrath in the proper context. That is I think we should read the imprecatory psalms as the prayer of the righteous in distress. But above all this I think we must always keep before us the passage in Romans: "Vengence is mine says the Lord, I will repay." I would say that praying for God's wrath is a practical outworking of this reminder. It is in effect saying, "I relinquish any claim to execute judgment and leave that to God's working." Just a few brief thoughts.

GP

[Carl Smuda]

It DOES say "love thy enemy," doesn't it. On 9-11 I was praying a lot for the people who did those horrible things first. Then the survivors, and the families of the lost, and the rescue people. Is there a list of imprecatory psalms some where?

[Hitch]

02-25-2003 @ 06:46 PM
Carl Smuda:

A couple of things here, if anyone wishes to comment-and all are invited to comment. God is at work in YOU to will and to do of His good pleasure.
:rockon: First, Before our Lord was made flesh Jeremiah knew that a person's life is not their own. Well, the Apostle Paul said we are not our own we have been bought with a price. No matter what our life is not our own. Second, it isn't for us to direct our steps. So there is this tension between what we want to do and what the good Lord wills. (Blessed be Him!). Third, is it okay for us to ask God to pour His wrath on nations that do not like us? e.g. Saints in the U.S. asking God to lay some wrath on Osama ben laudin? :bonk: Well if the martyrs in heaven pray for vengeance...


The blood of the martyrs has been poured
out (cf. 2 Tim. 4:6), and as it fills the trench below the altar it
cries out from the ground with a loud voice, saying, How long,
O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our
blood upon those who dwell on the Land? The Church in
heaven agrees with the cherubim in calling forth God’s judgments:
How long? is a standard phrase throughout Scripture for
invoking divine justice for the oppressed (cf. Ps. 6:3; 13:1-2;
35:17; 74:10; 79:5; 80:4; 89:46; 90:13; 94:3-4; Hab. 1:2; 2:6). Theparticular background for its use here, however, is again in the
prophecy of Zechariah (1:12): After the Four Horsemen have
patrolled through the earth, the angel asks, “O LORD of Hosts,
how long wilt Thou have no compassion for Jerusalem?” St.
John reverses this. After his Four Horsemen have been sent on
their mission, he shows the martyrs asking how long God will
continue to put up with Jerusalem. St. John’s readers would not
have failed to notice another subtle point: If the martyrs’ blood
is flowing around the base of the altar, it must be the priests of
Jerusalem who have spilled it. The officers of the Covenant have
slain the righteous. As Jesus and the apostles testified, Jerusalem
was the murderer of the prophets (Matt. 23:34-37; Luke 13:33;
Acts 7:51-52). The connection with “the blood of Abel” crying
out from the ground near the altar (Gen. 4:10) is another indication that this passage as a whole refers to judgment upon Jerusalem (cf. Matt. 23:35-37). Like Cain, the “older brothers” of
the Old Covenant envied and murdered their righteous
“younger brothers” of the New Covenant (cf. 1 John 3:11-12).
And so the blood of the righteous cries out: [The saints pray that
Christ’s prophecy of “the days of vengeance” (Luke 21:22) will
be fulfilled


That this blunt cry for vengeance strikes us as strange just
shows how far our pietistic age has degenerated from the
Biblical worldview. If our churches were more acquainted with
the foundational hymnbook of the Church, the Psalms, instead the sugary, syrupy, sweetness-and-light choruses that characterize modern evangelical hymnals, we would understand this much easier. But we have fallen under a pagan delusion that it is somehow “unchristian” to pray for God’s wrath to be poured out upon the enemies and persecutors of the Church. Yet that is what we see God’s people doing, with God’s approval, in both Testaments
of the Holy Scriptures. 18 It is, in fact, a characteristic of
the godly man that he despises the reprobate (Ps. 15:4). The spirit expressed in the imprecatory prayers of Scripture is a necessary aspect of the Christian’s attitude (cf. 2 Tim. 4:14). Much of the
impotence of the churches today is directly attributable to the
fact that they have become emasculated and effeminate. Such
churches, unable even to confront evil — much less “overcome” it
— will eventually be captured and dominated by their enemies.
11 The righteous and faithful saints in heaven are recognized
as kings and priests of God, and thus there is given to each of
them a white robe, symbolizing God’s acknowledgment of their
purity before Him, a symbol of the victory of the overcomes
(cf. 3:4-5). The whiteness of the robe is part of a pattern already
set up in Revelation (the Seven Letters) in which the last three
items in a sevenfold structure match the first four items. Thus:
First Seal: White horse Fifth Seal: White robes
Second Seal: Red horse Sixth Seal: Moon like blood
Third Seal: Black horse Sun black
Fourth Seai: Green horse Seventh Seal: Green grass burned
In answer to the saints’ plea for vengeance, God answers that
they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of
their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed
even as they had been, should be completed also. The full number
of martyrs has not yet been completed; the full iniquity of
their persecutors has not yet been reached (cf. Gen. 15:16), although
it is fast approaching the doom of God’s “wrath to the uttermost.



18. See, e.g., Ps. 5,7,35, 58, 59,68,69,73,79, 83, 109, 137, 140. The common
term for these and other passages is Imprecatoy Psalms such an expression can
be misleading, however, since most of the Psalms have imprecatory sections
(cwxes) in them (cf. Ps. 1:4-6; 3:7; 6:8-10; 34:16; 37:12-15; 54:7; 104:35;
139:19-22), and all the Psalms are implicitly imprecatory, in that the blessings of
the righteous are mentioned with the corollary assumed: The wicked are cursed.


The Days of Vengeance Dave Chilton ,19989, p 194,195, emphasis added

take care

Hitch

[Sozo]

In regard to your enemies, there is no need to pray for God's wrath...

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness"

"For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

And those who are in Christ are free from His wrath...

" Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. "

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ"

[Hitch]

In regard to your enemies, there is no need to pray for God's wrath...


Hmmmmmm

It seems that some of the dear ones who actually walked with Jesus in the flesh and gave their lives for the Gospel and entered the Presence God lack this understanding,



Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(KJV)


Take care


Hitch

[Sozo]

03-02-2003 @ 10:28 AM
Hitch:

In regard to your enemies, there is no need to pray for God's wrath...


Hmmmmmm

It seems that some of the dear ones who actually walked with Jesus in the flesh and gave their lives for the Gospel and entered the Presence God lack this understanding,



Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(KJV)


Take care


Hitch


They just asked how long before God's wrath would culminate, they never asked that He do it. The fact that they knew that all God's enemies were under His wrath, does not indicate that they found it necessary to encourage His will.

Would you pray that God resurrect you after your death?

[Hitch]

And When a little boys says' Mommie how long till dinner?' He's not asking to be fed...

Yeah right,

H

[Hitch]

02-26-2003 @ 06:57 AM
GrayPilgrim:

I agree we are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. However, Wisdom literature does show us that their are those whoa re enemies of God. I think it is fitting to pray for God's wrath in the proper context. That is I think we should read the imprecatory psalms as the prayer of the righteous in distress. But above all this I think we must always keep before us the passage in Romans: "Vengence is mine says the Lord, I will repay." I would say that praying for God's wrath is a practical outworking of this reminder. It is in effect saying, "I relinquish any claim to execute judgment and leave that to God's working." Just a few brief thoughts.

GP Perf!

H

[Sozo]

03-02-2003 @ 11:34 AM
Hitch:

And When a little boys says' Mommie how long till dinner?' He's not asking to be fed...

Yeah right,

H

Is that what you do, whine to God till you get your way?

Pretty poor analogy.

In any case, your prays don't move God to do anything he has not already intended.