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View Full Version : Does anyone have "The Gospels in Context" by Gerd Theissen?



Darth Xena
03-18-2014, 12:12 AM
In the Old TWeb a member posted an excerpt from this, and I need to check it for accuracy and get the publication information. Please let me know.

One Bad Pig
03-18-2014, 12:41 AM
If you have the excerpt, you could search to see if it's on Google Books. (I don't have it, sorry.)

Cow Poke
03-18-2014, 12:43 AM
I have it, but it's "in a box" while I move my library from my home office to my Church office.

It's available on Amazon in paperback
http://www.amazon.com/Gospels-Context-Political-Synoptic-Tradition/dp/0567296024/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=

Would that give you the publication info you need? If not, I'll be opening my boxes over the next couple weeks.

Darth Xena
03-18-2014, 12:55 AM
It will give me the publication information, but I want to also check the accuracy of the quote…. I can wait until you move if no one else has it.

Darth Xena
03-18-2014, 12:56 AM
Piggo, its not on google books, checked that.

Cow Poke
03-18-2014, 12:57 AM
Cool -- I'll keep an eye out for it! It may be a couple weeks, as Mrs CP starts her pre-op and Surgery soon, and we've been getting ready for that. I definitely remember seeing it, though.

Darth Xena
03-18-2014, 12:59 AM
Awesome, if no one else has it, that would be great. I will just make a note that I need to go back and add that source information.

Cow Poke
03-21-2014, 03:38 AM
I found my book!

mikewhitney
03-21-2014, 04:27 AM
I seems like things are okay now. I did find the book in a nearby university if you just need some verification of pages

The gospels in context : social and political history in the synoptic tradition / Gerd Theissen ; translated by Linda M. Maloney.
Publication Info. Minneapolis : Fortress Press, 1991.

Darth Xena
03-21-2014, 11:02 AM
CP or Mike,the page numbers I have is 267-268, and here is the quote I need to verify:

Vespasian could be regarded in the East as a ruler who usurped Messianic expectations and legitimated himself through prophets and miracles. It made no difference that he himself was a modest man. As a usurper, he had to rely on loud and vigorous propaganda. The warning against pseudo-messiahs in Mk 13:21–22 could have been formulated against the background of such a "propaganda campaign" for the victorious new emperor, who created peace by subduing the Jews and whose legitimacy was supported by signs and wonders. . . .The future expectations expressed in Mk. 13.14ff. can thus be located with ease in the circumstances around 70 C.E.

Cow Poke
03-21-2014, 03:48 PM
OK, got it --- scanning.

Cow Poke
03-21-2014, 03:58 PM
The Gospels and Their Provenance 267
me then yet more securely in chains and keep me for yourself; for you, Caesar, are master not of me only, but of land and sea and the whole human race." (Bell. 3.400-402)
This prophecy was also made public. Suetonius reports it in his life of Vespasian: "And one of his high-born prisoners, Josephus by name, as he was being put in chains, declared most confidently that he would soon be released by the same man, who would then, however, be emperor" ( Vesp, 5.6). In the rabbinic tradition, it was credited to Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai—another witness to its great "popularity."'7
However, legitimacy was created for the new ruler not only through prophecies, but also by means of "signs and wonders." Suetonius speaks openly of their propaganda value:
Vespasian as yet lacked prestige and a certain divinity, so to speak, since he was an unexpected and still new-made emperor; but these also were given him. A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them, and give strength to the leg, if he would deign to touch it with his heel. Though he had hardly any faith that this could possibly succeed, and therefore shrank even from making the attempt, he was at last prevailed upon by his friends and tried both things in public before a large crowd; and with success. ( Vesp. 7.2-3)
Tacitus also knew of these miracles. He agrees that they indicate "the favor of heaven" and "a certain partiality of the gods toward Vespasian" ( Hist. 4.81.1).
We may also mention a series of "signs" that occurred during the siege of Jerusalem.78 Tacitus writes of warring columns in the heavens, sudden lights around the temple, the bursting open of the temple gates, the exit of the gods. At the end of this series of signs stands the oracle that proph-esied world rule for Vespasian ( Hist. 5.13). Josephus, probably using the same Roman source, included this series of marvels in his account of the destruction of Jerusalem and added some additional signs (Bell. 6.296- 314). In his story, they also lead up to Vespasian's ascent to world power.
Thus, Vespasian could be regarded in the East as a ruler who usurped messianic expectations and legitimated himself through prophets and mir-acles. It made no difference that he' himself was a modest man. As a usurper, he had to rely on loud and vigorous propaganda. The warning
77. Cf. A. Schalit, "Die Erhebung Vespasians." P. Schafer, "Die Flucht des Johanan b. Zakkais."
78. Cf. Schwier, Tempel and Tempelzersidrung, 313ff.

268 THE STRUCTURING GENRES OF THE SYNOPTIC TRADITION
against pseudo-messiahs in Mk 13:21-22 could have been formulated against the background of such a "propaganda campaign" for the victorious new emperor, who created peace by subduing the Jews and whose legitimacy was supported by signs and wonders. In that case, the pseudo-messiahs would not have been leaders of the revolt against the Romans, nor would they represent expectations based on memories of those leaders. On the contrary, what was criticized was the usurpation of religious hopes by the Roman ruler who demolished the uprising. This interpretation is more in harmony with the traditions that have f6und their way into Mark 13, because even the prophecy from the year 40 warned against the hubris of power. The same is true of the whole Son of man tradition, especially Daniel 7: the reign of the Son of man destroys the rule of blasphemous world powers. It is his coming, and not the desperate efforts of native revolutionaries to achieve liberation, that puts an end to oppression.
The future expectations expressed in Mk 13:14ff. can thus be located with ease in the circumstances around 70 C.E. But in that case, Mk 13:9-14 must relate to the current situation of the Markan community. Certainly the evangelist has collected some traditional sayings here. But his inclu¬sion of them in 13:9-13, and their connection with the saying about the spread of the gospel in 13:10, could depend on concrete events. We need to show, then, that it is likely that Syrian Christians could experience things in the period ca. 66-76 C.E. that correspond to the words of Jesus presented in 13:9-13: pressures from all sides (13:13), mutual betrayal of members of the same family (13:12), trials before Jewish and gentile courts (13:9), but also the certainty that the gospel would spread in the face of persecution.79
Although we have no direct evidence of the persecution of Christians in Syria, we can conclude indirectly from Josephus that Christians came under pressure at that time. They were close to the Jews and shared their fate, since they were also separated from the surrounding society by their rejection of the gods and by their restricted table fellowship (cf. Gal 2:llff.). Because they did not adopt all the Jewish separatist rules, they appeared as a group somewhere between Jews and Gentiles. Josephus reports of them at the beginning of the Jewish war:8°
The Syrians on their side killed no less a number of Jews; they, too, slaugh¬tered those whom they caught in'the towns, not merely now, as before, from
79. On what follows, cf. C. Breytenbach, Nachfolge und Zukunftserwartung, 311-30; R. Kithschelm, Jungerverfolgung und Geschick jesu.
80. Breytenbach ( Nachfolge und Zukunftserwartung, 327) also sees in the historical tensions described by Josephus the historical background for Mk 13:9ff.

Darth Xena
03-21-2014, 05:40 PM
Awesome thank you, is this the same bibliographical information you have?

The gospels in context : social and political history in the synoptic tradition / Gerd Theissen ; translated by Linda M. Maloney.
Publication Info. Minneapolis : Fortress Press, 1991.

Cow Poke
03-21-2014, 07:45 PM
lemme doublecheck -- the book is out in my office.

Cow Poke
03-21-2014, 08:08 PM
Awesome thank you, is this the same bibliographical information you have?

The gospels in context : social and political history in the synoptic tradition / Gerd Theissen ; translated by Linda M. Maloney.
Publication Info. Minneapolis : Fortress Press, 1991.

EGGzackly

Darth Xena
03-21-2014, 09:39 PM
Awesome thank you.

mikewhitney
03-22-2014, 11:27 PM
CP or Mike,the page numbers I have is 267-268, and here is the quote I need to verify:

Vespasian could be regarded in the East as a ruler who usurped Messianic expectations and legitimated himself through prophets and miracles. It made no difference that he himself was a modest man. As a usurper, he had to rely on loud and vigorous propaganda. The warning against pseudo-messiahs in Mk 13:21–22 could have been formulated against the background of such a "propaganda campaign" for the victorious new emperor, who created peace by subduing the Jews and whose legitimacy was supported by signs and wonders. . . .The future expectations expressed in Mk. 13.14ff. can thus be located with ease in the circumstances around 70 C.E.

The wording is a correct representation. I can submit scans soon if needed.

Darth Xena
03-22-2014, 11:46 PM
No that is good, I just wanted to verify it. Thank you everyone!~

mikewhitney
03-22-2014, 11:52 PM
I should have figured CP would have it done before I knew it. But I did get to check out the Concordia university campus.