Original Sin?

[seer]

Because of original sin it is said that we have not ability to understand or to respond to the things of God,

so to Mark 4:10-12:

But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.' "

Why did Christ need to speak in parables to vail His message? If we are dead to the things of God then this action seems redundant at best, and totally unneeded.

[rhutchin]

Today @ 11:49 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=272933#post272933)
seer:

Because of original sin it is said that we have not ability to understand or to respond to the things of God,

so to Mark 4:10-12:

But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.' "

Why did Christ need to speak in parables to vail His message? If we are dead to the things of God then this action seems redundant at best, and totally unneeded.

The effect of original sin is that people have no desire for God; they even hate and despise God. They can understand and they can respond. I think this supports the Calvinist position that God has elected to save certain people and He speaks to them and not to the others.

[mickiel]

Today @ 01:34 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=273021#post273021)
rhutchin:



The effect of original sin is that people have no desire for God; they even hate and despise God. They can understand and they can respond. I think this supports the Calvinist position that God has elected to save certain people and He speaks to them and not to the others.




YOU say they can understand, the verse says they CANNOT, a direct contridition of this scripture. Its as if you can't see it. What it really is, is you cannot understand it. Its plain as day. To YOU, the called annointed firstfruits, it has been GIVEN, John 3:27, -- What has been given, the MYSTERTY OF GOD. The bible calls the gospel a mystery, christians think they have solved it, packaged it and now they sell it. BUT THOSE NOT CALLED GET EVERYTHING IN PARABLES. The calvinist got it half right, the firstfruits ARE REAL, ARE SEPERATED FIRST, but in error the calvinist teach thats it, thats the only number John saw. But John saw another number, that number, which none can count, is the totality of mankind.

Ohh verse 12 is the pathology of God misunderstood as it is. The REASON for this covering of those not called is given. In order that THEY MAY REMAIN BLIND, AND NOT YET RECEIVE FORGIVENESS! Now this is where the confusion comes in, thus Seers question. What God has effectively done is lock men into a " SAFE ZONE", in this zone, their sin is NOT being imputed against them. This enrages christianity, or the prodical sons brother, because they want humanity to be accountable, not understanding the day of salvation is not yet come for them.

This is shown in 2 Corinth. 5:14-21. Although Jesus purposely taught in ways only his disciples understood, he died for all of mankind. He died on behalf of unbelieving mankind, but was not trying to induce trheir belief, not yet. In verse 16, Paul understands this and state they reconize no man in the flesh, or he understood sinners are not being judged. Jesus didnot come into the world to judge it, but to save it, Luke 9:56, JOHN 3:17. Because of this, no matter what condition people or the world is in, All those sins will pass away- 2Corinth. 5:17. The christians cannot see that all people are in Christ, thinking only themselves to be the annointed, the calvinist error here also. Verse 19 is the GOSPEL TRUTH, THE MYSTERY-- God is , in Christ , RECONCILING THE WORLD TO HIMSELF. THe WORLD IS EVERY SINNER YOU CAN IMAGINE THAT EVER LIVED. Look at the LATTER PART OF VERSE 19-- he is redeeming the world to himself NOT COUNTING THEIR SINS AGAINST THEM.

Not imputing sin unto the world, why- Jesus has taken those sins on his shoulders, Christ is now responsible for OUR tresspasses, and THROUGH HIM, we will have complette forgiveness and be reconciled to the Holy Father justified and blameless. So when God left mankind in blindness, locked them in disobedience, shut understanding of truth FROM them, HE EFFECTIVELY SEALED THEIR SALVATION! Now Christ stands in for blinded mankind and is our intercessor, this is why i believe in universal salvation. God will not judge what he has imprisioned in blindness, he is not judgeing humans. No matter how horrible sins are, they are not being imputed now. Now to the mind not seeing this, universalism is hersey, i understand that. Not seeing, they will look at any message that saves all of mankind as rediculous and even blasphemus.

All the earth is blinded to this mystery, this was the assignment of satan, Rev. 12:9, and he has done his job. Yes an assignment, God controls him. And religon has been used to effectively assist in this covering. The blindness will be removed. In Psalms 22:27-29, all the ends of the earth WILL REMEMBER THE LORD, and ALL the families will worship him. Of intrest, notice latter part of verse 29; ALL those who GO DOWN TO THE DUST, will bow before him, even he who cannot keep his soul ALIVE. This is another clear referance to the DEAD IN THEIR SINS RECEIVING SALVATION. But christianity cannot understand this. The bible is loaded with scriptures, but remember the prophecy; IN SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE. This is why i say so often when debateing them, "you do not see the verse". The scripture i have given is perfect to understand the issue being discussed, but they, not seeing, accuse me of not understanding their version of understanding, which i really do. I was rasied in the same locked condition as everybodyelse. God SLOWLY began releasing me from the "not seeing, now i see". Seeing is a wonderful experience, and yet horrible. Because i see, as well as those others who do, we are now marked to be misunderstood by all of mankind, especially religons.

I know what it is to be locked in traditional views. One CANNOT understand why God does "anything" in that condition.

[rhutchin]

Today @ 04:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=273580#post273580)
mickiel:


mickiel
YOU say they can understand, the verse says they CANNOT, a direct contradiction of this scripture….

rhutchin
I read the verse to say that Christ spoke in parables so that “hearing they would not hear” or so that they would not understand. Consequently, had Jesus not spoken in parables, the presumption is that they would understand. Do you think I am reading something into the verse that is not there?
+++++

mickiel
To YOU, the called annointed firstfruits, it has been GIVEN, John 3:27, -- What has been given, the MYSTERTY OF GOD. The bible calls the gospel a mystery, christians think they have solved it, packaged it and now they sell it. BUT THOSE NOT CALLED GET EVERYTHING IN PARABLES. The calvinist got it half right, the firstfruits ARE REAL, ARE SEPERATED FIRST, but in error the calvinist teach thats it, thats the only number John saw. But John saw another number, that number, which none can count, is the totality of mankind.

rhutchin
I do not understand the point you want to make here.
++++++

mickiel
….What God has effectively done is lock men into a " SAFE ZONE", in this zone, their sin is NOT being imputed against them. This enrages christianity, or the prodical sons brother, because they want humanity to be accountable, not understanding the day of salvation is not yet come for them.

rhutchin
“Safe Zone” That seems like pretty wild theology. I do not see any support for that in the Bible.
+++++

mickiel
This is shown in 2 Corinth. 5:14-21.…In verse 16, Paul understands this and state they recognize no man in the flesh, or he understood sinners are not being judged. Jesus did not come into the world to judge it, but to save it,…The christians cannot see that all people are in Christ, thinking only themselves to be the annointed, the calvinist error here also. Verse 19 is the GOSPEL TRUTH, THE MYSTERY-- God is , in Christ , RECONCILING THE WORLD TO HIMSELF. THe WORLD IS EVERY SINNER YOU CAN IMAGINE THAT EVER LIVED. Look at the LATTER PART OF VERSE 19-- he is redeeming the world to himself NOT COUNTING THEIR SINS AGAINST THEM.

rhutchin
If what you say is true, then why does Paul in v 20 say, “We implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.” What happens to those who do not want to be reconciled to God?

Why does Paul say further in v 21, “…that we MIGHT become…” Isn’t “might” the wrong word to use if you are correct?
+++++

mickiel
…Jesus has taken those sins on his shoulders, Christ is now responsible for OUR trespasses, and THROUGH HIM, we will have complete forgiveness and be reconciled to the Holy Father justified and blameless….this is why i believe in universal salvation. God will not judge what he has imprisoned in blindness, he is not judging humans. No matter how horrible sins are, they are not being imputed now. Now to the mind not seeing this, universalism is hersey, i understand that. Not seeing, they will look at any message that saves all of mankind as ridiculous and even blasphemous.

rhutchin
However, in another place, Christ says that many will say to Him on that day, Lord, Lord, and He will respond, I never knew you. Revelation speaks of the judgment where many are cast into the fire. 2 Cor 4:3 says that the gospel is veiled from those who are perishing. Universal salvation is not consistent with many scriptures.
+++++

mickiel
All the earth is blinded to this mystery, this was the assignment of satan, Rev. 12:9, and he has done his job. Yes an assignment, God controls him. And religon has been used to effectively assist in this covering…

rhutchin
If universal salvation is true as you describe, why does it matter what you or anybody else believes about the Bible. Shouldn’t your message be that people should eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow they die and go to heaven?

[mickiel]

Today @ 07:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=273720#post273720)
rhutchin:



mickiel
YOU say they can understand, the verse says they CANNOT, a direct contradiction of this scripture….

rhutchin
I read the verse to say that Christ spoke in parables so that “hearing they would not hear” or so that they would not understand. Consequently, had Jesus not spoken in parables, the presumption is that they would understand. Do you think I am reading something into the verse that is not there?
+++++


You said they can understand, the verse says they wouldnot. Christ preached, people heard him, but they didnot understand his gospel, it was hidden to them. He opened his mouth and taught "them", them being his disciples. Matt.10:5, he instructed Them, Matt. 5:1-2, seeing the multitude he went up on a mountain , away from the crowd, he sat down with his diciples and TAUGHT THEM, christians teach that he taught the multitude, that is in error. Jesus spoke in parables when he couldnot get away from the crowds. He did that so they COULDNOT understand.






++++++

mickiel
….What God has effectively done is lock men into a " SAFE ZONE", in this zone, their sin is NOT being imputed against them. This enrages christianity, or the prodical sons brother, because they want humanity to be accountable, not understanding the day of salvation is not yet come for them.

rhutchin
“Safe Zone” That seems like pretty wild theology. I do not see any support for that in the Bible.



Romans 11:32 is that safety locked zone, and i understand that you cannot see it in scripture. If you had eyes for its support, you would also see Gal.3:22 where it says explictly "the scriptures has shut all men under sin", and the firstfruits are refered to as believers in latter part of verse.
+++++

rhutchin
If what you say is true, then why does Paul in v 20 say, “We implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.” What happens to those who do not want to be reconciled to God?

Why does Paul say further in v 21, “…that we MIGHT become…” Isn’t “might” the wrong word to use if you are correct?
+++++


They are covered by the blood of Christ. The mentality that has influenced you is one of direct unforgiving judgement. This mentality is devoid of Grace, or underserved salvation. It protends that men are not worthy to be saved IF THEY don't choose to be. Typical human aittitude of merciless uncareing independance, but it is a very serious error in knowledge if you think God is that way. You can be as hard and callous as you wish in your treatment of unbelievers, but you cannot speak for God or try and transfer your callous grace to him. What happens to those who do not want to be reconciled, or saved, or part of God, Isaiah 45:23-- they will bow, Ps.22:27, 29 , they will remember, Mark 3:28, they will be forgiven. This is what happens to them in Gods mind, what happens in mans mind is utter madness-- they would be doomed to everlasting alive concious torment.

As far as the word might, again in my view might means a positive word for life, in the mind that searches the scripture for condemnation of others, it means "no chance". We are attracted to what we really believe in, i believe in life for all, that attracts my attention on scripture. If one is attracted to condemnation, hell torture, merciless judgement, thats what they will see.





.

rhutchin
However, in another place, Christ says that many will say to Him on that day, Lord, Lord, and He will respond, I never knew you. Revelation speaks of the judgment where many are cast into the fire. 2 Cor 4:3 says that the gospel is veiled from those who are perishing. Universal salvation is not consistent with many scriptures.
+++++

What becomes of those in the fire, which the bible is clear on them being tossed in. Rev. 20:15, humans are certainly tossed into this lake, Rev. 21:6, Christ is making an offer to the thirsthy. Those at this point who are born again ARE NOT thirsthy, that makes no sense. Jesus is offering THE WATER OF LIFE--- WITHOUT COST-- its FREE, to those who thirst. The offer is being made to those people in the lake of fire in 20:15, i know for sure antone in a lake of fire is thirsthy. I see life and mercy here, but i am attracted to that truth, no other kind of mindset will see this wonderful grace.






rhutchin
If universal salvation is true as you describe, why does it matter what you or anybody else believes about the Bible. Shouldn’t your message be that people should eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow they die and go to heaven?



IT DOES NOT MATTER! I have no message. I am no preacher, i am a sinner, thats it. Salvation is a predestined plan of God. NOTHING can alter it, change it, decerase it, when Jesus said it is finished, he meant there is nothingelse required for salvation. In him is the fullness of that plan. Nothing we do, good or bad can change salvation from an inherithed gift to some earned reward for human performance or condemnation for lack of performance.

[seer]

The effect of original sin is that people have no desire for God; they even hate and despise God. They can understand and they can respond. I think this supports the Calvinist position that God has elected to save certain people and He speaks to them and not to the others.

First, this is the judgement spoken of by Isaiah for Israel's past and present rebellion. Second, you did not answer my question - why did Christ need to hide his message in parables? If we are totally dead to the things of God?

[rhutchin]

Yesterday @ 10:32 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=273957#post273957)
seer:


rhutchin
The effect of original sin is that people have no desire for God; they even hate and despise God. They can understand and they can respond. I think this supports the Calvinist position that God has elected to save certain people and He speaks to them and not to the others.

Seer
First, this is the judgement spoken of by Isaiah for Israel's past and present rebellion. Second, you did not answer my question - why did Christ need to hide his message in parables? If we are totally dead to the things of God?

rhutchin
Not really sure. Mark records that Christ spoke in parables lest some hear and understand and repent. So, while we are dead to the things of God, we, apparently, are not ignorant or unable to understand the things of God.

I think the real question is, "What exactly did Jesus hide in parables?" Peter preached after pentecost and Paul preached and explained the gospel in very simple and easily understood langauge; even a child could understand them. So, what is left?

[rhutchin]

Yesterday @ 08:05 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=273750#post273750)
mickiel:


IT DOES NOT MATTER! I have no message. I am no preacher, i am a sinner, thats it. Salvation is a predestined plan of God. NOTHING can alter it, change it, decerase it, when Jesus said it is finished, he meant there is nothingelse required for salvation. In him is the fullness of that plan. Nothing we do, good or bad can change salvation from an inherithed gift to some earned reward for human performance or condemnation for lack of performance.


So, why are you writing to this forum? If you believe in universal salvation, why spend your time here? It seems like a waste of your time. You could be out doing something constructive. Are you trying to accomplish something on this forum?

[mickiel]

Today @ 12:51 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=274506#post274506)
rhutchin:




So, why are you writing to this forum? If you believe in universal salvation, why spend your time here? It seems like a waste of your time. You could be out doing something constructive. Are you trying to accomplish something on this forum?




At times it is a waste of times, but at times it is not. I stay mostly because of the e-mails i receive from many different people who frequent here. They say what they say, and that leads me to stay for now. As long as they are understanding. I am not trying to accomplish anything on this forum, most who post here are set. What you consider as unconstructive, others see as a learning experience, but i understand you. No need to be irritated, if you are, i will leave soon. Be patient for the others who are gleaning, when that is finished i will move on. I understand the pressure i put on your belief system, i have seen this before. I am not cold hearted, i will lighten up soon. Just be patient, you will get your desires. I can see them in you, you want me to leave, i understand that.

[Capt Mercury]

Just one quick comment. Why did Jesus teach in parables, in general? Well with the parable of the sower/seed He explained it. Basically God only wanted those who were truly interested to understand. They would hang around afterwards and ask Jesus questions about the parables - IOT try to understand. His disciples were ordinary people - Jesus chose them because of this - their genuine desire to understand the truth.

Without such a genuine seeking for the truth, no one can know Him.

Acts 17:11, 26, 27 These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.

26 From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

John 4:23, 24 But a time is coming-and now is here-when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

So while it is true that we would not come to Him unless God draws us, we do have the capability to respond to His urging. And God is searching for such as will respond. And we can ask the Father to lead us into divine appointments to talk with those truly searching.

CM

[rhutchin]

11-07-2003 @ 09:17 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=275014#post275014)
mickiel:
At times it is a waste of times, but at times it is not. I stay mostly because of the e-mails i receive from many different people who frequent here. They say what they say, and that leads me to stay for now. As long as they are understanding. I am not trying to accomplish anything on this forum, most who post here are set. What you consider as unconstructive, others see as a learning experience, but i understand you. No need to be irritated, if you are, i will leave soon. Be patient for the others who are gleaning, when that is finished i will move on. I understand the pressure i put on your belief system, i have seen this before. I am not cold hearted, i will lighten up soon. Just be patient, you will get your desires. I can see them in you, you want me to leave, i understand that.

No problem. No pressure on me. If you really believe in universal salvation, then the Bible is irrelevant. Hitler goes to heaven as does everyone else.

Unless you are incredibly bored, why participate in this forum when you could be out doing something fun, worthwhile, productive. Are you sure that you believe in universal salvation, or are you just trying to convince yourself that it is true (presumably to your benefit)?

You can stay as long as you want. I am just curious as to what do you hoped to accomplish?

[rhutchin]

11-07-2003 @ 10:20 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=275061#post275061)
Capt Mercury:

Just one quick comment. Why did Jesus teach in parables, in general? Well with the parable of the sower/seed He explained it. Basically God only wanted those who were truly interested to understand. They would hang around afterwards and ask Jesus questions about the parables - IOT try to understand. His disciples were ordinary people - Jesus chose them because of this - their genuine desire to understand the truth.

Without such a genuine seeking for the truth, no one can know Him.

....

So while it is true that we would not come to Him unless God draws us, we do have the capability to respond to His urging. And God is searching for such as will respond. And we can ask the Father to lead us into divine appointments to talk with those truly searching.
CM

I think the issue is, Why did Jesus speak in parables if only the elect would be interested in what He had to say and the non-elect would ignore Him whether He spoke in parables or not. Jesus did not want certain people to hear and understand, but it seems that they could care less in the first place.

[mickiel]

Today @ 07:03 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=276648#post276648)
rhutchin:



No problem. No pressure on me. If you really believe in universal salvation, then the Bible is irrelevant. Hitler goes to heaven as does everyone else.


This is the glory that christians hate, as did the brother of the prodical son. He DIDNOT want his brother to repent. He didnot WANT his father to forgive. Christians do not WANT sinners to be saved in the end. They feel only THEY DESERVE eternal life, they DO NOT WANT, or DESIRE God to forgive desolute mankind. The bible is rellevant to those who see its universal salvation for all. It is only illrelevant if one accepts traditional christianitys view of universal damnation for most of mankind-- or simply put, eternal life is only for christians, that would make the bible irrelevant for sure.






Unless you are incredibly bored, why participate in this forum when you could be out doing something fun, worthwhile, productive.


At times i consider banging on the head of the pharisee fun, worthwhile but not so productive. Explain to me why me posting here must have a reason you can understand, while i see no need whatsoever to understand why you or someonelse must explain to me why you are here? Underneath you statement is a desire for me to leave, i can see it. You are transparent, anything you cannot understand, if it stands against you, it must leave. This is a root aittitude of christianity. Its members are trained to think in this manner. The examples are all over the archives of this board. Any person in dissagreement who is feared, is desired to leave. This residue is within you.





Are you sure that you believe in universal salvation, or are you just trying to convince yourself that it is true (presumably to your benefit)?


Now this is a very relevant question. At times i ask it of myself, praying that God remove it if it is not true. Each time i ask him that, he pumps me full of more understanding and will not release me from this direction. But at times i do question it. I don't want to be wrong, who does? I ask God for full confidence and understanding, Believe me, he's taking his sweet time in giving it because i wanted it, needed it yesterday. But its slowly comming. By the way, that was an excellent question.






You can stay as long as you want. I am just curious as to what do you hoped to accomplish?




Well i am glad i have your permission to stay, but it will not be long. Christians cannot endure my kind for long, they need pacification of their traditional views, i can never give that, so me being welcome is just an illousion. The longer i stay, the more of their deception will be exposed. Many would rather stay comfortabally blind than to travel through the great pain of "i was wrong", i need to be unbrainwashed. Because then comes the great wall of self that must be torn down. I remember God waking me up to so much deception. My first pain in understanding was ; "why God, why did you leave me blind for so long". This hurt me so much. But eventually the glory of at least now i see blended over my pain. I was blind, but now i see.

[rhutchin]

11-09-2003 @ 08:06 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=276673#post276673)
mickiel:


mickiel
…Explain to me why me posting here must have a reason you can understand, while i see no need whatsoever to understand why you or someonelse must explain to me why you are here? Underneath your statement is a desire for me to leave, i can see it. You are transparent, anything you cannot understand, if it stands against you, it must leave. This is a root attitude of christianity. Its members are trained to think in this manner. The examples are all over the archives of this board. Any person in disagreement who is feared, is desired to leave. This residue is within you.

rhutchin
Most people are on this forum to hash out what the Scriptures mean. Their purpose is to strengthen their understanding of the Scriptures and encourage them in their presentation of the Scriptures to the lost. There are two possible exceptions to this.

First are those who do not believe the scriptures are true and are challenging others to prove otherwise.

Second are people like you who claim to believe in universal salvation. To believe in universal salvation means that you believe that the Scriptures are unnecessary. It does not matter what the Scriptures say if all will be saved. It is not that I, or others, disagree with you. It just seems so illogical for you to argue a position that is not dependent on the Scriptures in a forum that discusses issues that depend on the Scriptures
++++++.

rhutchin
Are you sure that you believe in universal salvation, or are you just trying to convince yourself that it is true (presumably to your benefit)?

mickiel
Now this is a very relevant question. At times i ask it of myself, praying that God remove it if it is not true. Each time i ask him that, he pumps me full of more understanding and will not release me from this direction. But at times i do question it. I don't want to be wrong, who does? I ask God for full confidence and understanding, Believe me, he's taking his sweet time in giving it because i wanted it, needed it yesterday. But its slowly comming. By the way, that was an excellent question.

rhutchin
How does God give you understanding? And for what purpose do you think that He is giving you this understanding?
++++++

rhutchin
You can stay as long as you want. I am just curious as to what do you hoped to accomplish?

mickiel
Well i am glad i have your permission to stay, but it will not be long. Christians cannot endure my kind for long, they need pacification of their traditional views, i can never give that, so me being welcome is just an illousion. The longer i stay, the more of their deception will be exposed. Many would rather stay comfortabally blind than to travel through the great pain of "i was wrong", i need to be unbrainwashed. Because then comes the great wall of self that must be torn down. I remember God waking me up to so much deception. My first pain in understanding was ; "why God, why did you leave me blind for so long". This hurt me so much. But eventually the glory of at least now i see blended over my pain. I was blind, but now i see.

rhutchin
Apparently, you would not describe yourself as a Christian. What term would you use to describe what your are or what you believe? Do your beliefs rely on what the Bible says or would you believe them even if the Bible did not exist?