More joyful?

[bar Jonah]

Happiness and joy. Big difference.

Happiness comes and goes. Joy isn't a lot of happiness. Joy is something separate, different and far greater. It is transcendental.

Let me tell you a short story. A couple years ago, I was driving down a 6-lane street here in Denver (with a center median lane). An oncoming car lost control, spun around several times as it crossed the median, slamming head-on into one car ahead and to the right of me... spun again, hit another car head-on... spun one last time and hit a third car.

The second hit caused the oncoming driver's car battery to shatter in half... ejected it, causing it to fly right at me. The half-of-a-car-battery crashed through my windshield, hitting the right half of my face. Glass slashed up the right half of my face, and battery acid covered the right half of my body, especially my face.

I calmly brought the car to a stop in the median, no screech, no skid marks. I picked up the rear view mirror off the seat to my right, and looked at my face. My right eye was shut, couldn't open it. I saw blood coming out of the corners of my eye. I felt glass grinding around in there under the eyelids everytime I looked around.

I knew I had lost my right eye.

Was I happy? If you think I was happy at that moment, you have another think coming.

But did I have joy?

Let me tell you... I did. It was unmistakeable, distinct. I never would have expected to experience that, but here I was, with joy in my heart.

Joy about what? That I had survived? That I wasn't injured worse? No, and no. That I had (and have) an assurance of something beyond this world, after this life.

Happiness comes from having things that I want.

Joy comes from having the few things I truly need.

What do I want? -- apricot ceylon black tea with cream and sugar and a side of shortbread... a kick-booty heavy metal riff... being held tight by a woman who has romantic affection for me... a sunset viewed from on high in the Rocky Mountains... making a person laugh or cry or get angry because of something I wrote that mattered... Happiness and the things that bring happiness will come and go.

What do I really need -- God's grace, His love, His guidance, and an assurance that I will spend an eternity with Him, serving Him and glorifying Him.

I used to think I was happy, that I had joy in my life. I wasn't nearly as happy as I thought, and looking back, I had NO joy.

Take my comforts, take my car, my home... take my clothes... my health... my food, my water... take my air. Take my life.

Today, I have everything I need. And God... that gives me true joy.

[Queen]

Ah, the English language. Joyfull...that is what I meant. :doh: Oh man :metro: .....I think yes, but that is a personal POV. So I am not talking for other atheists here.

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[bar Jonah]

Ah yes, that's what you meant, of course. :riwink:

So, you feel you get joy from things in this world? Things that are temporary, fall away, fall apart, things that eventually turn on you, until you eventually die with no future...?

Can you explain further?

[Queen]

Oh there are enough things in the world!

sunrise and sunset
flowers
autumn
snow
music
art
books
cats

simple things, simple things like singing birds, "things" that I observe in my little garden, a happy calf in a meadow......many things that people forget to enjoy because they are too busy making money, buying their second or even third car, buying a second telly and so on.......These are material things that bring joy for a few moments, for a few seconds in your life. That is why I think religion can bring joy, because it is not something material but spiritual.........

I guess we are all seeking in our life to answer those few questions that we just can't answer........why what and how.....

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[bar Jonah]

But that's my point. All of those things are temporary, and most of them will rot and die away. None of them are reliable in the long-term.

When a person makes materialistic things the focus of one's happiness and "joy," what should we expect to come from it? Is a primarily materialistic focus healthy, even just psychologically?

[Queen]

What if we had a change to a new life here on earth? Re-incarnation I mean....would that be the same as your thoughts about an eternal life...in the here after?

I don't think that enjoying nature's beauty is materialistic. I believe it is spiritual. Just not in the sense you experience spiritual things. But to struggle your whole life to become rich (I mean money, big house and so on) is a materialistic drive for joy and happiness and when people have reached their goals on this level they realize that it isn't joyful and it doesn't satisfy at all. You can't bring your money with you....wherever you go after this life.

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[bar Jonah]

Queen:

What if we had a change to a new life here on earth? Re-incarnation I mean....would that be the same as your thoughts about an eternal life...in the here after?

I don't think that enjoying nature's beauty is materialistic. I believe it is spiritual. Just not in the sense you experience spiritual things. But to struggle your whole life to become rich (I mean money, big house and so on) is a materialistic drive for joy and happiness and when people have reached their goals on this level they realize that it isn't joyful and it doesn't satisfy at all. You can't bring your money with you....wherever you go after this life.

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen
And I don't struggle to become rich. I have no ambition toward that. I am poor, and to be honest, I'm making no significant effort to change that.

But striving for monetary wealth is not the only form of materialism. Materialism is a focus on material things. And this world is material. Flowers are material. Beautiful animals are material. Sunsets are material. Everything of this world is material. And a spiritual life concerned with reincarnation is inherently materialistic because it seeks joy from repeatedly experiencing this material world. Money and cars and jewelry aren't the only form of materialism. They are all made out of natural stuff of this material world.

I guess, as Madonna said, you're just a material girl. :riwink:

[Jedidiah]

Queen,

What if we had a change to a new life here on earth? Re-incarnation I mean....would that be the same as your thoughts about an eternal life...in the here after?

How do you see this "new life here on earth?"

beeman

[bar Jonah]

Queen:

What if we had a change to a new life here on earth? Re-incarnation I mean....would that be the same as your thoughts about an eternal life...in the here after?
Good question, Beeman.

Queen, how is your faith in reincarnation any different from our faith in an eternal life apart from this world? I used to believe in reincarnation, even had "memories" of my past lives.

And now, I recognize that they were false. That none of it ever happened. So... what is the basis of your faith in this? :ri:

[Queen]

Right Idea,

Me, a material girl? Oh man, you don't know me at all....To me nature is the closets thing to your God.... My hubs, he is the "material boy". He wants to make a carreer, make a lot of money and so on. And I? All I want right now is to feel good about myself. I have the lowest self esteem in the world at this moment :tongue: . Sometimes I wish that my hubs was more like me. we would be poor, but I guess we would be happier as well....and feel more joy. That is why I asked this.....I of course benefit from the money hubs makes, but yet...he is gone most of the time, working traveling for this company...YUK! It doesn't make me enjoy it at all. I am sometimes really lonely. I believe no money is worth that feeling.

Right Idea and Beeman,

It is not different. I just need to believe I have a second change.....another life...better. There are days that I want to do so many things, but my body is not strong enough. Like Jane Goodall...yep, I wish I could do the things she does......She is my great example in life, such a wonderful woman. I want to go out in the world, help dying children, help endangered animals...help living creatures and make their world better....but I can't. My body is too weak. That is why I need to believe in reincarnation.....Hoping for a second change.........very selfish thought indeed.

Lots of love and sunshine
Queen

[Aristotle]

I am materialistic and proud of it. All though they are temporary in the long run, they will last longer then I will so I am not worried about them. No need for everyone to be rich. I would prefer a moderate income of money. Life is something worth improving. After all, you are living it.

Enjoying the simple things like Queen was describing are joys in themselves. I like to look up at the dark sky at night and look at all the stars. Every now and then, I will even see a shooting star! Joy does not come from any one source. It is subjective and its possession depends on the person. Who cares if they are materialistic or not? They are joys and even joy itself is only a temporary feeling of happiness.

[bar Jonah]

I couldn't have said it any better, Aristotle.


Queen, you still completely missed my point. As Aristotle just conceded, those material worldly things in nature are materialistic things. They are physical things of this world -- matter and energy. Your closeness to a hypothetical god is through these materialistic things.

Money, cars, nice clothes and jewelry aren't the only forms of materialism. What are these things made of? Plants, elements of the earth, perhaps wool from cute little sheep... Things of nature. What do you think the word "material" means?

Your happiness comes from material things. Matter and energy of this world. Just like Aristotle described.

[undying_rose]

I think the thing here is the necessity for a proper understanding of joy. Joy has nothing to do with emotions. It's not smiling and feeling good, NMW. It's a state of being that doesn't change depending on circumstances, be they good or bad. Joy is what enabled Job to bless the name of the Lord, even when his life had fallen apart around him. He wasn't sitting there smiling and feeling great, but he still said, "Blessed be the name of the Lord."

Joy is so much more complicated than the feelings of happiness and wellness that tend to define it in today's society. Therefore, this question can't be asked and answered fairly unless all of the parties involved have a true understanding of Godly joy.

~Abigail Rose~

[Queen]

Right Idea,

Well, yes...if you see it as material....but nature can be enjoyed spiritual as well. When I see all these things ( :wink: ) I find it beautiful and wonderous that it all began in that "pool of mud and atoms"......How precious every creature is here on earth and beyond.....and how wonderful we can enjoy the diversity of this beautiful planet. This planet that is one out of millions.......billions even.

I guess it is a matter of perception. With material in Holland we mean the things that we think we need to be happy.....if it means matter than yes...I am material in that way..... :tongue: So, I agree with you on that......By the way, I love Madonna and looking at that video and hearing those lyrics she meant the same thing as I do.... :teeth:

Lots of love, joy and sunshine,
Queen

[bar Jonah]

Queen, I appreciate that people use different definitions for different things. But allow me to submit some definitions.

The physical -- having strictly to do with the material world around us, whether beautiful flowers or a fancy Rolex, with no spiritual value assigned.

The metaphysical -- spiritual truths, feelings and/or other experiences that are centered on material things of this world.

The spiritual -- transcending the material, strictly having to do with non-material reality, truths and experiences.


What you just described, I would define as being in the "metaphysical" category. But when I speak of spiritual things, I'm not talking about those spiritual experiences still being tied to this materialistic world.

[Queen]

RI,

I learn here everyday! Thanks for explaining! :flowers: That english language is quite confusing sometimes :argh:


LOLAS,
Queen :teeth: