Here's a nice one....

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

In verse 8, exactly what comprises the "gift of God?" Any translation ideas?

[Jaltus]

In Greek, the "gift" is in the accusative, referring to "this." "This" is in the neuter and can only refer to the entire phrase "by grace you have been saved through faith", due to the way it is said.

Thus, the gift is the entire concept of grace through faith.

[Blake Reas]

02-26-2003 @ 02:51 AM
pereynol:

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

In verse 8, exactly what comprises the "gift of God?" Any translation ideas?

That is my favorite verse! Sola Gratia!!!! Sorry I can not make any comments on the Greek

In Christ,
Blake:cry:

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

02-25-2003 @ 10:03 PM
Jaltus:

In Greek, the "gift" is in the accusative, referring to "this." "This" is in the neuter and can only refer to the entire phrase "by grace you have been saved through faith", due to the way it is said.

Thus, the gift is the entire concept of grace through faith.

I agree that the neuter "touto" pertains to the whole concept of salvation by grace through faith. But the theological controversy concerning the exegesis of this verse arises when we ask whether faith itself is something we receive as a gift from God. How do you see this?

[Jaltus]

I don't think this verse answers that question. I believe it is saying that the entire salvation process is a gift.

I believe you can make solid arguments both ways, saying that faith is included in the phrase or by saying that it is instrumentally in the phrase, but the actual "faith" itself is not.

In other words, try not to pull more from this verse than it is willing to give.

[Pilgrim]

If you want to pull something, how about my finger?:angel:

[Ric]

02-25-2003 @ 09:51 PM
pereynol:

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

In verse 8, exactly what comprises the "gift of God?" Any translation ideas?

Paul again reminds his readers that they owe their salvation entirely to the undeserved favor of God. "Grace" is the objective, operative, and instrumental cause of salvation. Paul expands Ephesians 2:5 by adding that the medium that apprehends salvationis "faith", which is also its necessary condition. Faith, however, is not something a person can produce; it is simply a trustful response that is itself evoked by the Holy Spirit.
Lest faith should be in any way misinterpreted as our contributing in any way to our own salvation, Paul immediately adds a rider to explain that nothing is of our own doing; rather, everything is the "gift of God." The entire process of salvation comes from nothing that we have done.

[Justjay]

02-27-2003 @ 12:50 AM
Ric:



Paul again reminds his readers that they owe their salvation entirely to the undeserved favor of God. "Grace" is the objective, operative, and instrumental cause of salvation. Paul expands Ephesians 2:5 by adding that the medium that apprehends salvationis "faith", which is also its necessary condition. Faith, however, is not something a person can produce; it is simply a trustful response that is itself evoked by the Holy Spirit.
Lest faith should be in any way misinterpreted as our contributing in any way to our own salvation, Paul immediately adds a rider to explain that nothing is of our own doing; rather, everything is the "gift of God." The entire process of salvation comes from nothing that we have done.

And all of Gods children said "AMEN!!" :thumb:

[barryrob]

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

In verse 8, exactly what comprises the "gift of God?" Any translation ideas?
Jesus Christ is God's Gift.
Barryrob

[Mildred]

My understanding from the Greek is that the "That" and the "Gift" are the same grammatical function as the being "saved" so the gift is actually our salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

In verse 8, exactly what comprises the "gift of God?" Any translation ideas?

[lee_merrill]

Can't it possible refer to salvation, and/or grace, and/or faith, though? I would hope for "and" on all three. I'm not sure the grammar prevents "and this" from referring to "grace" or "faith" specifically, see the recent discussion on "and this" here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51396)...

Blessings,
Lee

[technomage]

Can't it possible refer to salvation, and/or grace, and/or faith, though? I would hope for "and" on all three. I'm not sure the grammar prevents "and this" from referring to "grace" or "faith" specifically, see the recent discussion on "and this" here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51396)...

Hi, Lee,

To the best of my understanding, all you can get from this passage is "The entire package (salvation by grace through faith) is a gift." I think the grammar requires looking at the entire phrase, rather than the parts of it.

Justin

[harmonmsp]

I agree with Jaltus and those others who have said it is the process by which salvation is made available. For example, can you imagine trying to get salvation any other way? What a gift, then, that we're saved through our faith!

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Justin: To the best of my understanding, all you can get from this passage is "The entire package (salvation by grace through faith) is a gift." I think the grammar requires looking at the entire phrase, rather than the parts of it.

I agree that the entire package is meant, but I'm not sure the grammar makes it impossible for "and this" to refer specifically to "grace" and "faith," given the usage in 3 John 1:5.

Harmonmsp: What a gift, then, that we're saved through our faith!

Yes!

And doesn't there seem to be an implication that if salvation-by-grace-through-faith is a gift, that grace and faith are gifts also? If not, wouldn't that be like saying a car is a gift, only not the windshield and the motor?

Blessings,
Lee

[harmonmsp]

Yes!

And doesn't there seem to be an implication that if salvation-by-grace-through-faith is a gift, that grace and faith are gifts also? If not, wouldn't that be like saying a car is a gift, only not the windshield and the motor?

Well, I can see what you mean here. Of course faith is a gift. The real question is what you mean by 'faith' ... (Naturally, I think God acting in grace is a gift as well, but grace could also be seen as the giving of the gift, not necessarily the 'gift' itself.)

[lee_merrill]

Of course faith is a gift.
Yes, I agree!

The real question is what you mean by 'faith' ...
Saving faith, I would say here, whatever that may actually mean. Now I believe faith is believing God in such a way so that we will obey him!

We often here of the analogy of a person saying "I believe that chair will hold me up," and someone replying "Well, sit in it!" And I think obedience corresponds to sitting in the chair, and that is also saving faith.

Naturally, I think God acting in grace is a gift as well, but grace could also be seen as the giving of the gift, not necessarily the 'gift' itself.
Yes, I agree, God "graciously gives" to us (Rom. 8:32, Eph. 1:6), so it's a way of giving, as well as a gift...

Blessings.
Lee

[harmonmsp]

Agreed, but I want to ask you this ...

Yes, I agree, God "graciously gives" to us (Rom. 8:32, Eph. 1:6), so it's a way of giving, as well as a gift...

If you admit that grace is the act of giving, how can it also be the gift referred to in the verse?

[lee_merrill]

If you admit that grace is the act of giving, how can it also be the gift referred to in the verse?
God can graciously give us grace! James 4:6...

Blessings,
Lee