Demons! Demons everywhere!

[AtheistArchon]

- MAN, what is it with conservatives and demons these days??

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=61791&ran=9025

State senator denies blaming mental illness on sin and demons

By LOUIS HANSEN, The Virginian-Pilot
© November 1, 2003

NORFOLK — Several mental health advocates say state Sen. D. Nick Rerras has twice during the past four years expressed extreme and insensitive positions about the origins of mental illness, including the belief that psychological disorders are caused by spiritual demons.

Rerras said the two conversations, which occurred in 2000 and this year, were misunderstood. He denies blaming mental illness on sin and demonic possession.

The mental health advocates have raised the issue during the final days of a state Senate campaign. The General Assembly likely will engage in several critical debates about Virginia’s health care for the mentally ill over the next several years.

Rerras, a conservative Christian, faces Democrat Andy Protogyrou in the Nov. 4 election for the 6th District, which includes part of Norfolk, Mathews County and the Eastern Shore.

Protogyrou recently attended a meeting of the Norfolk chapter of the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill, where members shared their concerns about Rerras.

Advocates have made their concerns public in recent weeks. They say they tried to work with Rerras during his first term as senator but feel he will never be their advocate.

Kathy Weaver, president of the Norfolk chapter, said the remarks reinforced the stigma against the mentally ill. “It’s a lack of sensitivity,” she said. “These people are generally forgotten.”

Advocates also say the senator’s remarks — on two separate occasions, three years apart — displayed an ignorance of mental health issues at a vital junction in Virginia’s care for the mentally ill.

The state mental health care system is in the midst of a slow movement away from institutionalization to community-based care. The commonwealth spent more than $800 million last year to care for mentally ill Virginians, according to the latest available state figures.

Last month, an independent task force delivered a several-hundred-page report to Gov. Mark R. Warner, outlining how Virginia must change its mental health system to comply with a U.S. Supreme Court ruling endorsing community health care for the mentally ill.

The report includes 43 recommendations for immediate action by the General Assembly, ranging from increased funding and training to rewriting state law concerning the mentally ill. Several bills likely would be considered by the 15-member Senate Courts of Justice Committee, on which Rerras sits.

Rerras says he supports full funding for mental health care. His legislative record shows no pattern of opposition to mental health care reform.

He insists that mental illness is a valid disease. “I genuinely care about people with mental illness,” he said.

The first conversation occurred at a January 2000 breakfast banquet for community service boards from across the state, according to Rerras and several other people present. About 300 community service board workers, volunteers and legislators attended the event in Richmond. Rerras and at least one other legislator sat at a table with Norfolk social workers.

Bob Armstrong, a member of the Norfolk Community Services Board, was sitting near Rerras when the conversation turned to mental illness. Armstrong, who has a daughter with mental illness, was chairman of the Norfolk chapter of the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill for about 15 years before recently stepping down.

During the discussion, Rerras said he believed mental illness was caused by demons, according to Armstrong and another person who heard the conversation. Neither Armstrong nor the other participant are associated with the Protogyrou campaign.

Rerras also said he believed that God may be punishing families by giving children mental illnesses, according to the other person who heard the conversation. Armstrong and the second witness said the people who heard it were shocked. “We hadn’t heard that kind of stuff in 30, 40, 50 years,” Armstrong said.

Rerras recalls the conversation differently. As he remembers it, he did not say all mental illness is caused by demons. He said he asked the group whether demonization was a possible explanation for illnesses such as multiple personality disorders.

Armstrong said Rerras called him within the past two weeks and acknowledged that he made the comments and apologized. In interviews this week, Rerras declined to answer several questions about whether he believes mental illness has spiritual causes. “Mental illness is a valid illness,” he said. Most problems are physiological, he said, but “we’re more than flesh and blood.”

Within the past year, another mental health advocate questioned Rerras about his stance on mental illness. Honey Biberman, a Norfolk resident who is active in the local NAMI chapter, said she approached Rerras in June at a club wrestling event at Granby High School.

Biberman asked Rerras whether he still believed that mental illness was caused by spirits. According to Biberman, the senator restated his belief that mental illness had spiritual origins.

Rerras said he did not remember the exact details of the conversation but said he again mentioned demonization as a possible component of mental illness.

Some Christians believe that demonization plays a role in certain mental illnesses, Rerras said. Rerras would not say what he believes.

William L. Hathaway, director of the psychology department at Regent University in Virginia Beach, said the idea of demonization — that mental illness is caused by demons — is an extreme position even for conservative Christians.

Hathaway said the philosophy is found in nearly all religions. For example, there are Christian stories about fallen angels and demons that influence mortals’ lives.

Therapists sometimes help patients restore their spiritual or religious health when appropriate, said Hathaway, a scholar in the psychology of religion. But psychological problems are rooted in biological and social causes, he said. To attribute serious psychological disorders to demons, he said, “does a great injustice to the mentally ill.”

Val Marsh, executive director of the NAMI Virginia chapter, said such misconceptions particularly are damaging coming from an elected leader. “It perpetuates misinformation and stigma,” she said. “It’s kind of like saying the sun revolves around the Earth.”

Rerras, who works in business development for a local technology firm, said he supports full funding of the Community Service Boards. He said he has toured facilities in Norfolk and Virginia Beach and has met with several mental health care professionals. The issue of his views has not been raised in several subsequent meetings, he said.

Rerras has considered several dozen bills concerning mental health during his four years as a state senator, according to a review of legislative records. He voted with the majority on almost all of the mental health bills.

In 2002, for example, he voted for a comprehensive restructuring of the mental health care system that would allow the state to gradually close some institutions. Rerras also sponsored a bill that year that clarified the services provided by Community Service Boards.

Sen. Kenneth W. Stolle, R-Virginia Beach, said he heard about the comments and spoke to Rerras shortly after they occurred. He said he believes that Rerras did not intend to offend the group.

Rerras has been supportive of issues concerning the mentally ill, Stolle said. “His voting record speaks for itself.”

Marsh, however, said Virginia consistently ranks among the worst states in the country when it comes to caring for the mentally ill. Recent budget cuts have made the problems worse. “We’re already a starved system,” she said.

Rerras’ comments have continued to upset local advocates of the mentally ill. “I’m just disappointed,” Armstrong said. He said he had hoped to educate Rerras about mental illness. “I didn’t want an apology.”

- Nice. We continue to elect people who believe in magical nasties... and we wonder why Gen. "Somalia Demon" Boykin was nominated for a high-level anti-Islam... oops, I mean anti-terrorism... post in the Bush admin. :ahem:

- Watch out, Nick! I'll unleash my inner demon on you... rar! :ahem: He obeys me because I learned how to control him by watching the Harry Potter movies. :ahem: Last week, my demon commanded me to buy a Secret Spells Barbie too, just to tick off the religious reich. :ahem:

- Weep, all children of rationalism. Weep for your country, for it is run largely by 1350's superstitions. If CNN reported Senators rolling bones to see the future, I wouldn't believe it except for the fact that it's "anti-Christian" unless you phrase it as "prophecy", not voodoo.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

It is true that many mental illnesses have symptoms identical to that of demon-possession as described in the Bible.

The point is a belief that there is both a spiritual and material dimension to our existence and that what we observe behaviorally can be due to a spiritual affliction.

This is not a denial of the importance of rational thought, just a different way to view the world.

Every culture besides the enlightenment has affirmed there being a spiritual dimension. Many have believed the spiritual dimension is more important. Affirming its existence, doesn't imply that it is all important and we are without effects in dealing with it.

I had friends who confronted situations where mentally-ill types evinced posssessed like symptoms and their problems were dealt with by social workers with no reference whatsoever to the spiritual dimension of the problem.

The interpretation. If both dimensions exist they are intertwined and we can deal with the spiritual one without directly confronting it...

dlw

[markporter]

The interpretation. If both dimensions exist they are intertwined and we can deal with the spiritual one without directly confronting it...

methinks I would disagree there, I think that there are cases where there is a spiritual reality which needs to be confronted directly, yes there are going to be many many cases that exhibit signs resembling some of those encountered in demon posession which can be dealt with naturally. But I believe that in a genuine case of posession this would not necessarily be enough.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

markporter:

methinks I would disagree there, I think that there are cases where there is a spiritual reality which needs to be confronted directly, yes there are going to be many many cases that exhibit signs resembling some of those encountered in demon posession which can be dealt with naturally. But I believe that in a genuine case of posession this would not necessarily be enough.

For all cases, you should do both... Just as you should pray for those who are sick, but also see that they see a doc and take their medications.

Hence, the importance of how the two are intertwined.
dlw

[mickiel]

The mind thinking it is immune to deception, is decevied already. There are more demons in christianity than any other area on earth. The christian influence is the strongest most influencial hot bed of demon possesion i have ever studied. The deception must be given in a manner that none is aware of it, or it is not deception. The level of demonic intervention towards the misunderstanding in christianity has been performed at magical unbelievable lengths. The talent of demons is astounding. The way they distort truth, and how that distortion is accepted, is truly a work of evil art. As it is being unfolded to me, i believe there is no way God cannot be involved, its just too good of a job of power being done.


Its like a whole heard of sheep being led by a pied piper of deception, who calls himself God. This is Gods way of protecting humanity, preserving them in blindness until the great day of release. He will release his great awesome love for us all. Rom. 11:32.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Um, yeah...

but then again wouldn't there be more demons where people would be more likely to cause like problems for demon?


Moderators, I think this thread may be better redirected to another forum...

dlw

[mickiel]

Today @ 07:03 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=277636#post277636)
Love-Warrior:

Um, yeah...

but then again wouldn't there be more demons where people would be more likely to cause like problems for demon?


Moderators, I think this thread may be better redirected to another forum...

dlw



People do not cause problems for demons, such a notion is backwards. Demons were created to cause problems for humans, they are far more powerful than us. They are doing just what they were created to do. Cause confusion. Wherever you see the most confusion on earth, demons are congregating there. Whatever religons are most confused, demons are grouping together and jumping on it. Look at Islam and christianity. Need i say more.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

mickiel:

People do not cause problems for demons, such a notion is backwards. Demons were created to cause problems for humans, they are far more powerful than us. They are doing just what they were created to do. Cause confusion. Wherever you see the most confusion on earth, demons are congregating there. Whatever religons are most confused, demons are grouping together and jumping on it. Look at Islam and christianity. Need i say more.

Au contraire...

They are not so much powerful than us...

Thanks to the death of Jesus on the cross, their power over us is severely attenuated, so much that their existence can in many circumstances be disregarded.

Our problems stem far more from ourselves...

dlw

[Bill the Cat]

I thought my mother in law was coming over and you guys saw her first... :huh:

[AtheistArchon]

- Bill, your response is thus far the most sane. :smile:

[markporter]

AtheistArchon:

- Bill, your response is thus far the most sane. :smile:

only if you don't believe in the existence of demons.

[AtheistArchon]

only if you don't believe in the existence of demons.

- Well yes, that's what I was implying. Belief in the existence of demons is a sign of psychosis... it's not healthy. We lock up people who chase fairies around their yards, but we ELECT people who attribute illness (mental or otherwise) to invisible imps of an invisible satan created by an invisible god. :smile:

- So in other words, belief that purple sock-eaters live under one's bed is only insane... if you aren't a believer in purple sock-eaters. :smile:

[Da Lone-Warrior]

AtheistArchon:

- Well yes, that's what I was implying. Belief in the existence of demons is a sign of psychosis... it's not healthy. We lock up people who chase fairies around their yards, but we ELECT people who attribute illness (mental or otherwise) to invisible imps of an invisible satan created by an invisible god. :smile:

- So in other words, belief that purple sock-eaters live under one's bed is only insane... if you aren't a believer in purple sock-eaters. :smile:

I believe in bacteria, viruses, even though I cannot see them.

the point is that believing in the existence of a spiritual dimension to reality is what is really at stake here.

A belief in that has rather little to do with sanity...

dlw

[The Laughing Man]

MAN, what is it with Archie constantly seeing all Christian conservatives constantly seeing demons because of a couple of extreme examples these days??

[Da Lone-Warrior]

What good do the ad-homs do...

Arch,
I treat demons the way I treat viruses. I acknowledge their existence but don't let it affect me too much.

I think that people tend to get carried away when spiritual stuff is brought up and start saying stuff like demons are more powerful than us or what-not.

dlw

[AtheistArchon]

MAN, what is it with Archie constantly seeing all Christian conservatives constantly seeing demons because of a couple of extreme examples these days??

- Not all, not all. But a lot. And a belief in demons isn't really extreme for a mainstream Christian, is it? Maybe I'm wrong here... most of the people I communicate with who are practicing, believing Christians do indeed believe that they exist (demons). The line here, however fine or blurry it may be, is crossed (IMO) when we move from believing in demons as "spiritual" things and instead, attributing things like sickness or bad luck to "demons", who are directly influencing the material world in order to vex humanity. It begs the question: how do you cure mental illness? Obviously, if the cause is a demon, you go to church, or get an exorcism, or pray, or whatever... anything but genuine medical science. It's a dangerous and ignorant belief, I tell you, and one which we've labored as a species for centuries to overcome.

LW: the point is that believing in the existence of a spiritual dimension to reality is what is really at stake here.

- The belief itself, and nothing more, is merely silly to me. To actually attribute sickness to demonic forces? That's right out of The Exorcist. Or Benny Hinn.

[TheOneAndOnly]

I've got an idea. why don't they just do an exorcism on these mental patients. If they're "cured" then we can safely assume demons were at work, if not then its back to the drawing board and we'll just have to use "real" medicine and techniques to help them.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Arch:The belief itself, and nothing more, is merely silly to me. To actually attribute sickness to demonic forces? That's right out of The Exorcist. Or Benny Hinn.

TheOneAndOnly:

I've got an idea. why don't they just do an exorcism on these mental patients. If they're "cured" then we can safely assume demons were at work, if not then its back to the drawing board and we'll just have to use "real" medicine and techniques to help them.

Sicknesses and the human body are complicated things. The truth of the matter is it is hard to pinpoint on what is involved with causality.

It is possible, but that possibility doesn't imply as much for how we deal with those who suffer from illness besides prayer.

Once more, allowing for the spiritual realm, by no means argues that the material realm doesn't matter.

dlw

[Rahab]

This topic is of great interest to me as I delt first hand with my mother's mental illness for over 30 years. Born with a neurone defficiency, she developed a psychosis which progressed to schizophrenia and ended with her recent suicide.

I remember asking for spiritual intervention a few years ago as I was discouraged by her frequent relapses(due to her quitting her meds) where she would experience auditive hallucinations, tactile delusions (she would fall several times claiming that someone was pushing her) etc..... her constant distress led me to want to research spiritual means to find some relief. I contacted a man known as "Bondagebreaker" who held a ministry on line dedicated to spiritual warfare prayer. I gave him the full medical history of my mother including a strange episode which occured while we lived in Africa. It was his belief that she was the victim of sorcery. I was not too convinced as to his analysis. But when we are desperate for our loved ones, we want to believe that anything must be tried.

As he commited to pray in a fashion that only spiritual warfare prayer warriors claim to know how, my mother was at the time undergoing another forced medical treatment in a mental facility. Her release was dependent on her recovery. In my phone communication to her, she expressed to me how she had found God, that her life had changed. Naturaly I rejoiced. We had her released. That was 4 years ago.
Within a year she quit her treatment again. Relapse. Again forced internment with police intervention this time. Released again and relapse twice in the last two years.

I came to the conclusion that if she had truly experienced healing from that devastating illness, she would not have become a casualty two months ago. I appreciated the dedication of that prayer warrior but I must say here based on my experience that in her case, clinical and medical care under strict supervision was the only way to keep her from hurting others or herself. I could not force her into an assisted living facility under the French law. So we had to rely on her monthly visits to her psychiatrist for supervision.

I do believe that prayers can bring comfort to some of us who face uncurable illnesses among our loved ones. It allows us to bear better with the load. But I would never advocate to anyone relying only on prayer to promote healing into a mentaly ill person.
God has given us a precious Gift of Reason to utilize as we face the mysteries of what is yet to be explained when it comes to mental illnesses.
I highly recommend that family members of mentaly ill patients surround them constantly with human presence and seek medical care for them. They cannot be entrusted to care for themselves for they deny the presence of their very own illness. They need to be supervised by family as to their meds intake. They must never be isolated.

As far as demons are concerned, I rally to DLW's comments. I attribute much more importance in my life to the redeeming power of Christ for me personaly than demonic oppression.

However.....when I lived in Italy I became familiar with the ministry of an order of monks named "Cappucini" who practise exorcisms. It is my understanding that the Catholic Church calls them to intervene spiritualy ONLY when the church has evaluated that all the signs or symptoms of demonic posession are present. I learned from one of them that those are the following ones:
- use of ancient tongues not acquired by the subject thru learning
- levitation
- apparitions of lesions on the subject body not self inflicted
- use of blasphemious terms towards God or His Saints, cussing...
- spasms of the subject body at the contact of Holy water
- inordinate display of physical strength where the subject has to be placed in restraints
Those are the main ones that struck me as having nothing to do with symptoms of schyzophrenia.

I certainly would not advocate confusing mental illness with the very strict criteria the Catholic Church has to even contemplate demonic posession.

[geochron]

I know from experience how hard it is to get effective treatment of a mental illness - finding a decent psychiatrist willing to prescribe the latest meds (with much reduced side effects reducing the tendency to stop taking them) and appropriate counselling can be a long struggle. But it can work in the end and mental illness can often be controlled for long periods of time. If you're lucky there will be a place of refuge for when stress brings the symptoms back.

I also know that well meaning religious intervention can do much more harm than good. There's nothing spiritual about psychosis - nothing whatsoever. It's a hideous disease which we now have some success in treating, thankfully.

[markporter]

The line here, however fine or blurry it may be, is crossed (IMO) when we move from believing in demons as "spiritual" things and instead, attributing things like sickness or bad luck to "demons", who are directly influencing the material world in order to vex humanity.

Hmmm? So it's OK to believe that they exist, so long as they don't actually do anything? I think the line is crossed when we start seeing them in everything that goes on, attributing every sickness to them etc.



geochron:
I also know that well meaning religious intervention can do much more harm than good. There's nothing spiritual about psychosis - nothing whatsoever. It's a hideous disease which we now have some success in treating, thankfully.

Am not so sure, I cannot see how praying for someone could in any way do them harm.....what type of intervention were you thinking of? And there is no illness which is beyond God's power to do something.

[Rahab]

Today @ 10:28 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=278836#post278836)
markporter:



Hmmm? So it's OK to believe that they exist, so long as they don't actually do anything? I think the line is crossed when we start seeing them in everything that goes on, attributing every sickness to them etc.





Am not so sure, I cannot see how praying for someone could in any way do them harm.....what type of intervention were you thinking of? And there is no illness which is beyond God's power to do something.

It is not about God's Power failing to do something..... it is about how we who interact and have the responsibily of caring for a mentaly ill person fail to recognize the importance of continuous and supervised medical treatment.
Remember the mother who drowned her own children (5 I believe) as she had been diagnosed with schizophrenia for many years? her family and herself were God believing people.They were surrounded by prayers. But what happened here is that she was not treated medicaly efficiently and was expected to deal with pressure as a mentaly sane person would. Some type of denial occured in the process. Denial that this poor human being needed chemical help to restore her brain to some degree of normality in her thought process.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Which is why both medical assistance and prayer support matter.
dlw

[AtheistArchon]

Rahab: It is not about God's Power failing to do something..... it is about how we who interact and have the responsibily of caring for a mentaly ill person fail to recognize the importance of continuous and supervised medical treatment.
Remember the mother who drowned her own children (5 I believe) as she had been diagnosed with schizophrenia for many years? her family and herself were God believing people.They were surrounded by prayers. But what happened here is that she was not treated medicaly efficiently and was expected to deal with pressure as a mentaly sane person would. Some type of denial occured in the process. Denial that this poor human being needed chemical help to restore her brain to some degree of normality in her thought process.

LW: Which is why both medical assistance and prayer support matter.

- I see no trend here showing that prayer "matters" in the outcome. Every documented example we have shows that medication makes a difference, and prayer does not (except perhaps to the psychological well-being of the people praying). Do you really believe that Rahab's mother would have NOT been okay if she'd taken the meds but neglected the prayer?

- Prayer is fluff. Prayer is an opiate. Pray if you like; sick people will not magically get better because of it. Neglect medical science, and not all the prayers in the world are going to return one's chemical i mbalance to normal levels... not any more than they will turn my Cobra into a Toyota.

- Christian fundamentalists, especially "Christian scientists", love love love to flout the "power of prayer". People die like this, shunning hospitals and medicine and vaccinations and secular, materialistic, scientifically-proven medical care. You may as well take up VooDoo if you shun science, it will do you as much good as Catholicism or holy water or bawling into your bed on your knees because you want to be magically cured.

- No LW, I see one that is very important, and one that pretends to be important.

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Yesterday @ 12:47 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=277612#post277612)
Love-Warrior:

It is true that many mental illnesses have symptoms identical to that of demon-possession as described in the Bible.
I think another way of restating that is that it is likely that what was described by the superstitiously ignorant folk of the Bible as demonic possession was actually mental illness with perfectly rational etiologies. However, those ancient people didn't understand the workings of the brain, chemical imbalances, and so on, so they instead sought the supernatural explanation for something they did not understand.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I think you are mixing up Jehovah witnesses, or was it Christian Scientists, and Christians.

I don't recall the sources, but have heard otherwise AA.

Of course, there are greater measurement problems with prayer than with medical treatments, but I believe faith does play a role in assisting with healing.

dlw

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Yesterday @ 05:22 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=278039#post278039)
Rahab:


However.....when I lived in Italy I became familiar with the ministry of an order of monks named "Cappucini" who practise exorcisms. It is my understanding that the Catholic Church calls them to intervene spiritualy ONLY when the church has evaluated that all the signs or symptoms of demonic posession are present. I learned from one of them that those are the following ones:
- use of ancient tongues not acquired by the subject thru learning
- levitation
- apparitions of lesions on the subject body not self inflicted
- use of blasphemious terms towards God or His Saints, cussing...
- spasms of the subject body at the contact of Holy water
- inordinate display of physical strength where the subject has to be placed in restraints
Those are the main ones that struck me as having nothing to do with symptoms of schyzophrenia.
Except for the tongues and levitation thing, all the above have been observed numerous times in normal mental illness cases.

Lesions -- the body can create physical signs of psychosomatic illness, it is well-documented.

Blasphemy/Cursing -- ever heard of Turette's Syndrome?

Spams/Holy Water -- easily more psychosomatic symptoms, especially if the subject is made to believe he is demonically possessed (such as the obvious act of bringing in priests), so expects that that is how s/he should react.

Strength -- abnormal release of adrenaline can cause incredible spurts of strength. People have been able to lift cars off of accident victims by the same mechanism.

Now, I will allow that if ALL the above are happening in the same person, at the same time, then there might be at least minor cause for paranormal alarm.

[Rahab]

Today @ 05:20 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=279518#post279518)
Love-Warrior:

I think you are mixing up Jehovah witnesses, or was it Christian Scientists, and Christians.

I don't recall the sources, but have heard otherwise AA.

Of course, there are greater measurement problems with prayer than with medical treatments, but I believe faith does play a role in assisting with healing.

dlw
It assists definitly. Especialy as science is showing more and more the extraordinary power the mind can have on matter. It is well known that patients who have a positive attitude about their illness deal better with their illness. My home bound patients do much better than being in a hospital.
Christ said"your faith has healed you". Very important key to believers. But it appears that the person needs to have that faith within.

AA...... my mother's story was not presented to debate the power of prayer really. It was presented to give a realistic review of what a mental illness such as hers requires to not end up in a tragedy. I cannot evaluate whether or not it would have made a difference if my mother had actualy exhibited faith in Christ. It is my analysis that her thought process was so deformed that the very concept of a savior who can heal her was not accessible to her. Which places her, in my understanding of God's Grace, among those He knows cannot not make that conscious choice and relieves them from the accountability of "free will".

By the way AA..... why is it such a determination on your part to deprive believers from a belief that prayer will help especialy believers such as myself and DLW who recognize the vital importance of medical treatment and do not support the extremist christian groups you have refered to?
How is it a disturbance to you personaly that I would personaly experience a betterment in my condition whether it be emotional, phychological or physical thru prayer?
Should not you consider that if it works for another human being, you ought to be pleased about it. Or the need to demean a religious practise has become stronger than the realization that it can contribute to the betterment of another person even as if you wish to look at it as "auto suggestion".
Please reflect on that.

[Rahab]

Today @ 05:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=279531#post279531)
Eireann:


Except for the tongues and levitation thing, all the above have been observed numerous times in normal mental illness cases.

Lesions -- the body can create physical signs of psychosomatic illness, it is well-documented.

Blasphemy/Cursing -- ever heard of Turette's Syndrome?

Spams/Holy Water -- easily more psychosomatic symptoms, especially if the subject is made to believe he is demonically possessed (such as the obvious act of bringing in priests), so expects that that is how s/he should react.

Strength -- abnormal release of adrenaline can cause incredible spurts of strength. People have been able to lift cars off of accident victims by the same mechanism.

Now, I will allow that if ALL the above are happening in the same person, at the same time, then there might be at least minor cause for paranormal alarm.

I am somewhat familiar with Tourette's Syndrom. Note that I specificaly mentionned that ALL those symptoms must be observed.
What do you mean by "normal" mental illnesses?please define what you considher normal mental illnesses and abnormal ones. Do you consider schyzophrenia as "normal" or "abnormal"?
As far as your response regarding psychosomatic symptoms exhibited by the presence of lesions on the body, I am aware of stress induced afflictions or somatic symptoms caused by the sub conscious such as respiratory problems, skin rashes, nausea, headaches etc.... however, I have never seen any documentation of an actual hemorragy occuring without any medical cause to it. Bleeding sores for example which may appear on the skin surface. Please can you provide some medical information as to all those cases of such occurences in "normal" mental illnesses.

As far as Holy Water is concerned it appears that a person in a state of catharsis may have some problems identifying that the fluid that was applied to their skin is " Holy Water". You are picturing an assembly of robe wearing priests or monks chanting around the subject and giving obvious indications of their religious identity. That is not at all what this monk related to me. But it is possible that you would know more of the steps the CC takes in evaluating demonic posession than he did. Maybe you have watched the " Exorcist" and taken it too seriously!

Adrenaline.... no problems with that. The example you brought up is very well known.

I am not sure what your point was in your post. Had you read mine where I related my mother's case, you would realize that I do draw the line between mental illnesses and what could be of supernatural origine.

[NeilUnreal]

As a Christian, I believe in the reality of good and evil, and I have to at least consider the notion that there may be evil creatures of a spiritual nature. However, as a Liberal Christian and rational thinker, I also have to consider the converse: maybe the notion of demons as specific beings arose as a superstitious response to the observations of people with purely organic and neurotic mental illnesses.

In a rational, enlightened society, I think we have to err on the side of rationality and assume that such things as mental and physical illnesses have naturalistic explanations. Medicine is not perfect, but it does have a pretty good track record over the last 150 years or so.

I believe by faith that all things have a spiritual dimension and purpose. However, I suspect that trying to discern that spiritual dimension to the extent of being able to say things like “a demon caused this” or “an angel caused that,” is just a quick trip back to the dark ages.

As Christians, if we are concerned about the mentally ill, we should use our faith and concern to be "neighbors" to them. We can become doctors, drug researchers, etc. We can donate time to be caregivers. We can stop stigmatizing them.

I don’t see why specific demons are needed, anyway; people seem to have no trouble generating sufficient evil on their own. (Ditto with angels, but on the side of good of course :wink: )

-Neil

[Alden]

Yesterday @ 11:10 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=277644#post277644)
mickiel:
Wherever you see the most confusion on earth, demons are congregating there.

So, does that mean that Legion is living in your computer?

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 05:54 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=280159#post280159)
Alden:



So, does that mean that Legion is living in your computer?

:lol:

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Today @ 12:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=279569#post279569)
Rahab:

What do you mean by "normal" mental illnesses?please define what you considher normal mental illnesses and abnormal ones.
I use the term "normal" loosely. I'm talking about illnesses that occur with some regularity, with which psychologists and psychiatrists are commonly familiar, as opposed to those which occur so uniquely that some of them haven't even been named.

Do you consider schyzophrenia as "normal" or "abnormal"?
In the sense that I'm using that term, schizophrenia would definitely be a "normal" mental illness.

As far as your response regarding psychosomatic symptoms exhibited by the presence of lesions on the body, I am aware of stress induced afflictions or somatic symptoms caused by the sub conscious such as respiratory problems, skin rashes, nausea, headaches etc.... however, I have never seen any documentation of an actual hemorragy occuring without any medical cause to it. Bleeding sores for example which may appear on the skin surface.
I saw one myself just very recently, where a woman had a severe case of shingles, severe to the point that some of the sores were rupturing and bleeding. Shingles is a psychosomatic illness, suffice to say is caused by stress (no need to go into all the medical details about the precise processes that occur).

As far as Holy Water is concerned it appears that a person in a state of catharsis may have some problems identifying that the fluid that was applied to their skin is " Holy Water". You are picturing an assembly of robe wearing priests or monks chanting around the subject and giving obvious indications of their religious identity. That is not at all what this monk related to me. But it is possible that you would know more of the steps the CC takes in evaluating demonic posession than he did. Maybe you have watched the " Exorcist" and taken it too seriously!
In a state of "catharsis?" I think you meant "catalepsy." Catharsis is the artificial "release" of emotions through a symbolic stimulus, such as the rush one experiences from watching a horror film. But if you did mean catalepsy, you should be aware the the mind is still active during a state of catalepsy. In fact, during that state, the mind is extremely suggestable, which is one of the instrumental mechanisms behind the practice of hypnosis.

I am not sure what your point was in your post. Had you read mine where I related my mother's case, you would realize that I do draw the line between mental illnesses and what could be of supernatural origine.
I wasn't addressing you only, but was simply addressing the criteria you posted, because I've seen those criteria used many times to try to discount mental illness, and I felt it needed to be addressed, regardless who posted it.

[Queen]

THAT is what is wrong with me...living in sin and having a demon in my head......well, why couldn't I have thought of that before :doh:


:lmbo:


Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen :teeth:

[Dave G]

I myself have been diagnosed schizophrenic, and I've been treated for going on five years. One of the reasons I was diagnosed is because I admitted hearing a demon speak when I was living on the street in Austin. I was hungry and sleepless, which could contribute to hallucinations. I tried to make a collect call to a friend and the call didn't go through. Then I heard someone on the phone, a man's voice, ask me what he could do for me. I asked who he was. Again he asked what he could do for me. Again I asked who he was. "I'm your friend with the crooked nose," he said. I don't have any friends with bent noses, so I knew he was lying (which demons do). I again asked who he was. "My friends call me by three letters."
I was frightened, but all I could think to say was, "Who are you?"
That was the end of the conversation.
It's possible this was an auditory hallucination brought on by lack of sleep. However, I think it's odd that my mind didn't just generate random noises or words. Also strange is the fact that I heard a voice I've never heard before; I would think that if my mind came up with a voice it would be one already "stored in memory." But this voice actually carried on a short conversation.
This is why I believe the voice was an actual demon.
Doctors have diagnosed me without testing to determine what chemical imbalances I have, so I remain skeptical about the diagnosis. However, I take my meds, just in case.

[Rahab]

Today @ 06:00 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=281393#post281393)
Eireann:


I use the term "normal" loosely. I'm talking about illnesses that occur with some regularity, with which psychologists and psychiatrists are commonly familiar, as opposed to those which occur so uniquely that some of them haven't even been named.


In the sense that I'm using that term, schizophrenia would definitely be a "normal" mental illness.


I saw one myself just very recently, where a woman had a severe case of shingles, severe to the point that some of the sores were rupturing and bleeding. Shingles is a psychosomatic illness, suffice to say is caused by stress (no need to go into all the medical details about the precise processes that occur).


In a state of "catharsis?" I think you meant "catalepsy." Catharsis is the artificial "release" of emotions through a symbolic stimulus, such as the rush one experiences from watching a horror film. But if you did mean catalepsy, you should be aware the the mind is still active during a state of catalepsy. In fact, during that state, the mind is extremely suggestable, which is one of the instrumental mechanisms behind the practice of hypnosis.


I wasn't addressing you only, but was simply addressing the criteria you posted, because I've seen those criteria used many times to try to discount mental illness, and I felt it needed to be addressed, regardless who posted it.

Bonjour Eireann..... I must disagree with you as "shingles being a psychosomatic illness". It is caused by the virus Varicella-Zoster. The chickenpox virus will remain dormant in the nerves and manifest itself later on in life causing rashes and pain. It may even cause the patient to experience PHN (postherpetic neuralgia) which induces extreme pain sometime for months. The bleeding sores you observed are a clinical manifestation of a viral onset. That the attack of shingles may be stimulated by stress is possible but the clinical manifestation of pain, rashes, sores are symptoms of a viral manifestation.

Yes I meant catalepsy. My point was that it may not necessarly be an auto suggestive response from the subject especialy if there is no outside signs indicating to the subject that the fluid applied to his or her skin is "Holy Water".

[Solly]

I think the role of demons in such things a mental illness is overplayed, if not off base.

In scripture we find that the role of the demonic orders is temptation and delusion. Ie, working on the thoughts and intents of the mind. Since mankind is in sin already, I am not sure why the demons need to spend there time messing with people's biochemistry, when simple genetic disorders can do that. Satan and his orders deceive the nations, tempt and accuse Christians. that is where our focus is, from scripture. Apart from the eschatological events fo Christ's ministry, we have very little about the role of demons in the rest of the NT, other than as mentioned above.
Rid your minds of medieval pictures, and Chick tracts.

[AtheistArchon]

- So then what are demons, in actuality? If they're not physical in form, then what are they? What are they capable of? ESP? Mind control?

- Could a demon be responsible for, say, hiding my car keys on me? Could a demon be responsible for me failing a math test back in 9th grade?

- Do demons cause headaches or other physical maladies? Do demons cause depression?

- What are demons made of... are they immaterial, like god? If so, how would we ever know the difference between a demonic infestation and psychosis? Hey, what if a person is really suffering from a mental illness, and BECAUSE of that illness, claims to see and hear demons? How can we trust his testimony... how can we trust anyone's?

[Lazy Agnostic]

Let's not forget the demon of obesity with which faith seems as impotent to battle as iron chariots.

[AtheistArchon]

- Is alcohol a demon? :smile:

[markporter]

What are demons made of... are they immaterial, like god? If so, how would we ever know the difference between a demonic infestation and psychosis?

Yes, immaterial, yes, but I think that they may be able to have limited physical relations as well. How to tell the difference? Well the only thing which I would say would lead you to know for certain that something was demonic would be if somewhere along the line the person demonstrated a knowledge of something that they would not and could not have had in their normal physical state.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Today @ 05:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=282621#post282621)
markporter:
Yes, immaterial, yes, but I think that they may be able to have limited physical relations as well. How to tell the difference? Well the only thing which I would say would lead you to know for certain that something was demonic would be if somewhere along the line the person demonstrated a knowledge of something that they would not and could not have had in their normal physical state.
You mean like Miss Cleo or that smarmy little weasel with the overbite who talks to people's dead relatives on TV?

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Yesterday @ 02:19 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=282494#post282494)
AtheistArchon:

- Is alcohol a demon? :smile:
According to Ozzy.

[markporter]

Lazy Agnostic:

You mean like Miss Cleo or that smarmy little weasel with the overbite who talks to people's dead relatives on TV?

Dunno, never heard of her, probably not, it's not the type of stuff I have ever or would ever expect to see on TV.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Yesterday @ 05:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=282621#post282621)
markporter:



Yes, immaterial, yes, but I think that they may be able to have limited physical relations as well. How to tell the difference? Well the only thing which I would say would lead you to know for certain that something was demonic would be if somewhere along the line the person demonstrated a knowledge of something that they would not and could not have had in their normal physical state.
Actually, if a person were able to do that wouldn't they be considered a witch? Doesn't God say we shouldn't let witches live?

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Today @ 05:31 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=284487#post284487)
Lazy Agnostic:


Actually, if a person were able to do that wouldn't they be considered a witch? Doesn't God say we shouldn't let witches live?
A "witch" and a "psychic" are not the same thing. Most witches do not claim to have psychic powers, and it's been my experience as a witch that not many do. Witches aren't supernaturally empowered beings. They are just people who believe in certain elemental philosophies.

[markporter]

Eireann:

A "witch" and a "psychic" are not the same thing. Most witches do not claim to have psychic powers, and it's been my experience as a witch that not many do. Witches aren't supernaturally empowered beings. They are just people who believe in certain elemental philosophies.

Many do not is probably true, but I think that many probably do as well.

[Rahab]

11-12-2003 @ 07:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=282419#post282419)
Lazy Agnostic:

Let's not forget the demon of obesity with which faith seems as impotent to battle as iron chariots.

I think the question should be more as to the "demon of any addiction"..... obesity can be the result of glutonery which is a compulsive disorder manifested by an addiction to food. Same applies to the use or abuse of any addictive substance.

Anything which alterates the natural healthy process of the human body caused by an addictive personality disorder could be then considered a "demon". Especialy as it contributes to its destruction.
However, faith can actualy play a role in promoting RECOVERY in many christians. More and more there is an awareness among some churches as to the importance of healthy diets. Using the Bible as a platform to promote it. My church offers a small group program entitled "Return to Eden" close to vegetarian principles.

The problem we have had with obesity among some christians is that the focus has been too much on chasing the "demons" of alcohal, tobacco, drugs, pornography etc dismissing the long term unhealthy consequences and spiritual implications of compulsive eating disorders.

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Today @ 03:44 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=284815#post284815)
markporter:



Many do not is probably true, but I think that many probably do as well.

There are many people in general with some sort of "psychic" abilities, witches, Jews, Christians, Muslims, among them. In any of these cases, the abilities have nothing to do with the religion they practice. I have known a couple witches who were psychics, and they were psychics before they had ever even heard of Wicca.

[markporter]

Eireann:

There are many people in general with some sort of "psychic" abilities, witches, Jews, Christians, Muslims, among them. In any of these cases, the abilities have nothing to do with the religion they practice. I have known a couple witches who were psychics, and they were psychics before they had ever even heard of Wicca.

Hmmm, interesting.....so you're going for pyschic abilities without a spiritual realm? Sorry....I don't know what faith your avatar represents, you'll have to enlighten me.

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

Today @ 11:02 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=285156#post285156)
markporter:

Hmmm, interesting.....so you're going for pyschic abilities without a spiritual realm?
No. I do believe in a spiritual realm. I just think people are attributing blame or credit to the spiritual realm when the blame or credit doesn't belong there. Psychic abilities have been documented throughout history, from any number of faith backgrounds. There have been numerous scientific studies of psychic phenomena. While the mechanism behind such things still remains largely unexplained (along with a lot of other stuff that is unexplained), there is no reason to assume that the one and only explanation must lie outside our physical realm.

Sorry....I don't know what faith your avatar represents, you'll have to enlighten me.
The symbol represents paganism. I'm both a pagan and an agnostic, but we can only choose one symbol, and since I'm identified by more people as a pagan than as an agnostic, I chose that one. For future reference, if you hold your cursor above the symbol, after a second or so a box will pop up that tells you what the symbol represents.

[markporter]

ok, that's cool.