Out of Africa and "East in Eden"

[Kelp]

Sounds like a movie title :hehe:

Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.-Genesis 2:8 NIV

I was wondering how human evolution friendly views such as framework hypothesis handle this in light of the first modern humans appearing in Africa.

Did God take Adam and transport him to the Middle East (which is, of course west of the Great Rift Valley and vicinity)? Or could the Garden itself have been somewhere in West Africa (ten thousand Afrocentrists just punched the air on that one :tongue:)?

[lee_merrill]

Or maybe the first humans didn't leave fossils! And moved toward the equator. But the general area is right in Scripture, which seems worthy of note, and does seem to be confirmation of more literal views of Genesis.

Blessings,
Lee

[shunyadragon]

Or maybe the first humans didn't leave fossils! And moved toward the equator. But the general area is right in Scripture, which seems worthy of note, and does seem to be confirmation of more literal views of Genesis.

Blessings,
Lee

Wishful thinking.

[lee_merrill]

Wishful thinking.
But the first indications of human culture seem to appear in Mesopotamia (http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture2b.html). So now I'm wondering if indeed we need to reconcile an African location with a Mesopotamian location? Maybe we could have some links about modern humans and their first appearance in Africa?

Blessings,
Lee

[technomage]

But the first indications of human culture seem to appear in Mesopotamia (http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture2b.html).

The link does not support your assertion--your cited source clearly limits its assertions to "western civilization."

I guess my biggest question is thus: why do you feel that the two need to be "reconciled"? On the one hand, you have a scientific history that denotes what actually happened, but cannot divulge or import any spiritual insight. On the other hand, you have a mythic account that does not match the science, but relays spiritual truths that are far more important. Each account teaches different things, because they are used in radically different contexts.

[lee_merrill]

The link does not support your assertion--your cited source clearly limits its assertions to "western civilization."
I would have expected this be the first indication of civilization period, though I'm willing to hear otherwise.


I guess my biggest question is thus: why do you feel that the two need to be "reconciled"? On the one hand, you have a scientific history that denotes what actually happened, but cannot divulge or import any spiritual insight. On the other hand, you have a mythic account that does not match the science, but relays spiritual truths that are far more important. Each account teaches different things, because they are used in radically different contexts.
Yet you must know that the evangelical claim is that Genesis describes real events. Not ice-giants and cosmic cows!

Blessings,
Lee

[technomage]

I would have expected this be the first indication of civilization period, though I'm willing to hear otherwise.

Check out China, Korea, the Indus valley for a few.

Also, dwell on this: we're actally discussing two separate issues:

1. The geographic origin of man (ca. 200,000 ybp)
2. The start of civilization (circa 8000 ybp).

In the mainstream view, the two are separated by a considerable difference in time.


Yet you must know that the evangelical claim is that Genesis describes real events.

Not all evangelicals claim that, Lee--and as I have said before, making adherence to YEC a condition of being Christian is adding to the Gospel. The Bible says some truly nasty things about people who add to the Gospel.


Not ice-giants and cosmic cows!

:hehe: Thank you, Lee, I needed that.

[lee_merrill]

Check out China, Korea, the Indus valley for a few.
Well, good point. Not that I know off the top of my head where the Indus valley is. Alrighty, found it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization), and its civilization starts about 5500 B.C. apparently, so 10,000 B.C. would seem to trump this, and in China events start about 7000 B.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China) I'm not sure about Korea. Ooo, this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) (Wikipedia, admittedly) says the Neolithic started about 10,000 B.C. in the Middle East.


Also, dwell on this: we're actally discussing two separate issues:

1. The geographic origin of man (ca. 200,000 ybp)
2. The start of civilization (circa 8000 ybp).

In the mainstream view, the two are separated by a considerable difference in time.
Yes, thus I refer to modern humans, not Lucy and their kin.


Not all evangelicals claim that, Lee--and as I have said before, making adherence to YEC a condition of being Christian is adding to the Gospel.
And I am not a YEC, I'm an OEC (pronounced "awk"!).


:hehe: Thank you, Lee, I needed that.
We do have a talking snake, tho. :blush:

Blessings,
Lee

[shunyadragon]

But the first indications of human culture seem to appear in Mesopotamia (http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture2b.html). So now I'm wondering if indeed we need to reconcile an African location with a Mesopotamian location? Maybe we could have some links about modern humans and their first appearance in Africa?

Blessings,
Lee

The info you presented does not justify a more literal view of genesis. Nonetheless the beginnings of Neolithic cultures in China have comperable early dates.

The following site reference provides some basic information. The Pengtoushan culture dates to at least 7,500 BC, and cultivation of rice has been documented to at least 8,200 to 7,800 BC. Dates for this culture range from 9,000 BC to 5500 BC for dating the artifacts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pengtoushan_culture

Tracing African origins for humans is based on genetic and other paleontological evidence largely predating any signs of civilization. Actually the first cultural artifacts used by humanoids were found in Africa.

[greentwiga]

I analyzed the story of the garden of Eden and compared it to the invention of agriculture in 8,000BC. It seems to be a highly accurate record of the first farmer. Even the location agrees with the scientific location of the start of agriculture. Then one has to look at the start of humankind. Scientists state that was ~70,000 BC in East Africa. The only way to fit that into the Bible is to state that the Humans of Genesis 1 are not the same people as the humans of genesis 2 (Adam and Eve) This can reasonably maintained if Genesis 2:4 is read to understand that there were many generations before Adam and Eve.

[shunyadragon]

I analyzed the story of the garden of Eden and compared it to the invention of agriculture in 8,000BC. It seems to be a highly accurate record of the first farmer. Even the location agrees with the scientific location of the start of agriculture. Then one has to look at the start of humankind. Scientists state that was ~70,000 BC in East Africa. The only way to fit that into the Bible is to state that the Humans of Genesis 1 are not the same people as the humans of genesis 2 (Adam and Eve) This can reasonably maintained if Genesis 2:4 is read to understand that there were many generations before Adam and Eve.

As far as the beginning of agriculture the beginnings in the east and the west parallel at similar times as noted in my previous post

The out of Africa as human origins, and human origins likely has earlier dates.

[greentwiga]

As far as the beginning of agriculture the beginnings in the east and the west parallel at similar times as noted in my previous post

The out of Africa as human origins, and human origins likely has earlier dates.

Yes, the exit from Africa was 60,000-50,000 BC. The Garden was about 8,000 BC. The question is when did Agriculture appear in each region. It was clearly invented in S, Turkey. Was it independently invented in the hills above the Indus river? We have not done enough research and have difficulty in the current political climate. The book Guns, Germs and Steel is a great starting point on reading about the start of agriculture.

[shunyadragon]

Yes, the exit from Africa was 60,000-50,000 BC. The Garden was about 8,000 BC. The question is when did Agriculture appear in each region. It was clearly invented in S, Turkey. Was it independently invented in the hills above the Indus river? We have not done enough research and have difficulty in the current political climate. The book Guns, Germs and Steel is a great starting point on reading about the start of agriculture.

The references I cited clearly show that agriculture in China dates to at least 8000 years ago, and possibly earlier. On this issue Guns, Germs and Steel is not current.

As to out of Africa, I am including other homo migrations that occurred earlier, but as for humans you are correct.

[greentwiga]

Thank You for that info on China. I was not aware that China independently invented Ag about the same time as the middle east.

[shunyadragon]

Thank You for that info on China. I was not aware that China independently invented Ag about the same time as the middle east.

One of the reason I give an earlier date (unknown?) is that recent research reveals that Neanderthal turns out to be more closely related to humans than previously thought and they apparently did interbred to some degree after humans entered Europe and Asia. Homo related subspecies and species apparently came out of Africa at various times and we were only the latest.

[greentwiga]

The Neanderthal interbreeding is still debated in scientific circles. I have interestedly followed the research. The Middle East domestication was clearly 8-9,000BC while China could have been 9,000, but seems only clearly documented to 7,000 BC. Again, I am interested in the research in China and the Indus Valley.

[shunyadragon]

The Neanderthal interbreeding is still debated in scientific circles. I have interestedly followed the research. The Middle East domestication was clearly 8-9,000BC while China could have been 9,000, but seems only clearly documented to 7,000 BC. Again, I am interested in the research in China and the Indus Valley.

I have followed the research and lived in China for 9 years. I believe the change between 7,000 and 12,000 years ago was due to climate change and the retreat of the glaciers.

The reason I and others date agriculture earlier than 7,000 BCE is that what was found at that time was a fairly sophisticated culture with selective breeding of millet. This same culture with the same village and social structure dates to a thousand or more years earlier. The same goes for rice, because of the presence of selective breeding and domestication of rice in this period the origins of the agriculture are considered earlier.

The following is a good article tracing the evidence of rice cultivation.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/domestications/a/rice.htm

[greentwiga]

I have followed the research and lived in China for 9 years. I believe the change between 7,000 and 12,000 years ago was due to climate change and the retreat of the glaciers.

The reason I and others date agriculture earlier than 7,000 BCE is that what was found at that time was a fairly sophisticated culture with selective breeding of millet. This same culture with the same village and social structure dates to a thousand or more years earlier. The same goes for rice, because of the presence of selective breeding and domestication of rice in this period the origins of the agriculture are considered earlier.

The following is a good article tracing the evidence of rice cultivation.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/domestications/a/rice.htm

That was an interesting article. Wheat was systematically harvested before the Younger Dryas, ~10,000-9,000 BC, in the Middle East. The Younger Dryas drought eliminated most towns, then right after the drought ended, Agriculture exploded because farmers developed a complete package for farming. Did the Younger Dryas affect China the same? Was much else domesticated with rice or did it take the Chinese longer to develop a complete farming package? It does look like rice domestication took longer than wheat . were there more genes that needed to be changed? Thanks for the info.

[shunyadragon]

That was an interesting article. Wheat was systematically harvested before the Younger Dryas, ~10,000-9,000 BC, in the Middle East. The Younger Dryas drought eliminated most towns, then right after the drought ended, Agriculture exploded because farmers developed a complete package for farming. Did the Younger Dryas affect China the same? Was much else domesticated with rice or did it take the Chinese longer to develop a complete farming package? It does look like rice domestication took longer than wheat . were there more genes that needed to be changed? Thanks for the info.

I cannot answer the question specifically. The development of domesticated varieties through selective breeding is only one aspect of domestication of plants, but apparently parallels this process. It has been observed in virtually all Neolithic cultures that developed agriculture. Among the native Americans some examples are Corn, beans, squash and flax. In the Orient, soybeans, rice and millet. In the Middle east Wheat, Barley, and other related grains.

[greentwiga]

I cannot answer the question specifically. The development of domesticated varieties through selective breeding is only one aspect of domestication of plants, but apparently parallels this process. It has been observed in virtually all Neolithic cultures that developed agriculture. Among the native Americans some examples are Corn, beans, squash and flax. In the Orient, soybeans, rice and millet. In the Middle east Wheat, Barley, and other related grains.

The visible differences were the only way they could tell domestication. Some like wheat could be changed in 10-20 years. Some like corn took centuries to change from teosinte to corn. Rice might have taken an in between time.

Furthermore, farming did not erupt out of the Middle east until they had the eight founder crops plus crops like onions that would not be preserved, and meat from the sheep and goats. That is why I wondered about China. Domesticating rice alone would not make full time farmers. They would have needed a farming package so they would not have been half time hunter/gatherers.

[shunyadragon]

The visible differences were the only way they could tell domestication. Some like wheat could be changed in 10-20 years. Some like corn took centuries to change from teosinte to corn. Rice might have taken an in between time.

No visual differences are not the only way to tell the difference. We have many of the original wild species of rice, soybeans, millet and other crops and fruit from the Orient, and we have samples that they have extracted DNA.

Selective breeding in plants can take place in short periods of time in modern planned and controlled conditions, but in Neolithic and the Bronze Age the evidence indicates a longer period of time involved. I know of no evidence that wheat would be any more easier to selectively breed than rice or millet. I do know that yield was a primary selective choice for rice and millet.


Furthermore, farming did not erupt out of the Middle east until they had the eight founder crops plus crops like onions that would not be preserved, and meat from the sheep and goats. That is why I wondered about China. Domesticating rice alone would not make full time farmers. They would have needed a farming package so they would not have been half time hunter/gatherers.

Rice is not the only selectively bread crop of the Orient. Millet, among the crops domesticated and selectively bread are Soybeans, Cannabus (cloth, rope and smoke), and fruit like peaches.

The farming package is China is visible in the culture that extends back well before the direct physical evidence for cultivation.

[greentwiga]

No visual differences are not the only way to tell the difference. We have many of the original wild species of rice, soybeans, millet and other crops and fruit from the Orient, and we have samples that they have extracted DNA.

Selective breeding in plants can take place in short periods of time in modern planned and controlled conditions, but in Neolithic and the Bronze Age the evidence indicates a longer period of time involved. I know of no evidence that wheat would be any more easier to selectively breed than rice or millet. I do know that yield was a primary selective choice for rice and millet.



Rice is not the only selectively bread crop of the Orient. Millet, among the crops domesticated and selectively bread are Soybeans, Cannabus (cloth, rope and smoke), and fruit like peaches.

The farming package is China is visible in the culture that extends back well before the direct physical evidence for cultivation.

You are basing farming at an early age on thin evidence. You might think of 3 stages. Hunter/gatherer, Harvesting, and farming. Each would have transition stages in between. One needs a complete package of vegetables, a source of meat from tame animals and a fiber plant. You mention Rice, millet, soybeans, and peaches for the vegetables, Cannibus for the fiber, and you didn't mention the pigs and chickens. That is a reasonably complete package, but when did it come together. They could have domesticated rice and pigs in 9,000 BC but relied on the wild plants for the rest until 6,000 BC. This is a transition stage, not full farming. The Middle East shows the complete package at 9,000 BC. One result is that the package was so powerful that farming exploded out of the Middle east quickly. Is there evidence of a quick explosion of farming in China?

As to the speed of domestication, People have shown that only 2 genetic changes need occur in wheat for domestication. The domestication could have occurred in 20 years. Teosinte needed a large number of genetic changes, so corn domestication took a long time. How many genetic changes did rice undergo to become domesticated?

All these points need addressing to maintain the point that China had full farming in 9,000 BC

[shunyadragon]

You are basing farming at an early age on thin evidence. You might think of 3 stages. Hunter/gatherer, Harvesting, and farming. Each would have transition stages in between. One needs a complete package of vegetables, a source of meat from tame animals and a fiber plant. You mention Rice, millet, soybeans, and peaches for the vegetables, Cannibus for the fiber, and you didn't mention the pigs and chickens. That is a reasonably complete package, but when did it come together. They could have domesticated rice and pigs in 9,000 BC but relied on the wild plants for the rest until 6,000 BC. This is a transition stage, not full farming. The Middle East shows the complete package at 9,000 BC. One result is that the package was so powerful that farming exploded out of the Middle east quickly. Is there evidence of a quick explosion of farming in China?

As to the speed of domestication, People have shown that only 2 genetic changes need occur in wheat for domestication. The domestication could have occurred in 20 years. Teosinte needed a large number of genetic changes, so corn domestication took a long time. How many genetic changes did rice undergo to become domesticated?

All these points need addressing to maintain the point that China had full farming in 9,000 BC

I do not consider the evidence thin. Domestication of plants and animals took place through a period of ~12,000+ BP to 8,000 BP in China. The wild varieties of rice, millet and soybeans are close to the early domesticated varieties. What you have by ~7000 to 8000 BC in China is the evidence of wide spread use of modified crops (primarily for yield), for example larger millet heads. By 7000 BC you have fully domesticated animals, such as the goat and sheep in the central highlands of Asia and the pig in North China, and evidence of selective breeding in both plants and animals. This does not happen all of a sudden. The cultures associated with the agriculture were well developed before this

The best known evidence for early domestication is japonica. Rice phytoliths (http://archaeology.about.com/od/oterms/g/opalphytolith.htm) (some of which are identifiable to japonica) were identified in the sediment deposits of Diaotonghuan Cave (http://www.chinaculture.org/gb/en_artqa/2003-09/24/content_39069.htm), located near Poyang Lake in the middle Yangtse river valley radiocarbon dated about 10,000-9000 years before the present. Additional soil core testing of the lake sediments revealed rice phytoliths from rice of some sort present in the valley before 12,820 BP (although these were not necessarily domesticated). Shangshan, a Neolithic village in the lower Yangtse valley dated to about 10,000 BP contained ceramic sherds tempered with charred plants, including rice and containing fan-shaped phytoliths. By about 7,000 years ago, japonica is found throughout the Yangtse valley, including large amounts of rice kernels at such sites as TongZian Luojiajiao (7100 BP) and Hemuda (http://archaeology.about.com/od/hterms/g/hemuda.htm) (7000 BP).
Earliest Evidence

Four grains of rice were recovered from the Yuchanyan site, a rock shelter in Dao County, Hunan Province in China. They seem to represent very early forms of domestication having characteristics of both japonica and sativa, and are said to be dated between 12,000 and 14,000 years ago, although there is no discussion of what exactly was dated in the very preliminary report.


I do not consider it an issue as to when the Middle East or the Orient developed agriculture, because in general both regions developed agriculture during the same period of time primarily related to climate change and independently, and not an 'Out of Africa' theme.

[greentwiga]

Many people looked at the developed societies that arose in the Middle East at places like Jericho, before the Younger Dryas, around 13,000 YBP. These societies were based on Harvesting and added in some gathering. They also tended to trap herds of antelope for meat and slowly kill them as needed. The antelope were not domesticated, but neither was this a hunter society. Many tried to argue that domestication and farming were invented in Israel as well as Turkey and Iraq. Only with much more detailed analysis, did they show that it was only domesticated in a small favored location in S. Turkey about 11,000 YBP. It had spread over the Euphrates/Tigris valleys by 10,000 YBP.

You may be right, but so far, you have only shown that the first rice was domesticated 10,000-9,000 YBP and that the agriculture had spread over the Yangtze Valley about 7,000 YBP. More research is needed. What this does eliminate is the idea that agriculture was taught to China by migrants from the Middle East. What firm dates do they have for the other products you mentioned, millet, soybeans, etc.?

[shunyadragon]

Many people looked at the developed societies that arose in the Middle East at places like Jericho, before the Younger Dryas, around 13,000 YBP. These societies were based on Harvesting and added in some gathering. They also tended to trap herds of antelope for meat and slowly kill them as needed. The antelope were not domesticated, but neither was this a hunter society. Many tried to argue that domestication and farming were invented in Israel as well as Turkey and Iraq. Only with much more detailed analysis, did they show that it was only domesticated in a small favored location in S. Turkey about 11,000 YBP. It had spread over the Euphrates/Tigris valleys by 10,000 YBP.

You may be right, but so far, you have only shown that the first rice was domesticated 10,000-9,000 YBP and that the agriculture had spread over the Yangtze Valley about 7,000 YBP. More research is needed. What this does eliminate is the idea that agriculture was taught to China by migrants from the Middle East. What firm dates do they have for the other products you mentioned, millet, soybeans, etc.?

My references to the cultures of this period in the Middle East describe a sedentary to semi-sedentary pre-agricultural cultures, such as Natfuian described below, which would be consistent with the evidence or pre-agricultural cultures of China that gathered grains in the same general period.

The Natufian culture (pronounced /nəˈtjuːfiən/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English)) was a Mesolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesolithic) culture that existed in the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant), a region in the Eastern Mediterranean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Mediterranean). It was unusual in that it was sedentary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism), or semi-sedentary, before the introduction of agriculture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture). The Natufian communities are possibly the ancestors of the builders of the first Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) settlements of the region, which may have been the earliest in the world. There is no evidence for the deliberate cultivation of cereals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cereal), but people at the time certainly made use of wild cereals. Animals hunted include gazelles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazelle).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian#cite_note-Kottak2005-0)
The name "Natufian" was chosen by Dorothy Garrod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Garrod) who studied the Shuqba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuqba) cave in Wadi an-Natuf, Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine), about halfway between Jaffa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa) and Ramallah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramallah).



It is most likely that the Younger Dryas period, and before involved the progressive post-glacial desertification of larger regions of northern Africa, Middle East and Asia forcing people to the river valleys and near coastal plains of China. The presence and possible increase in wild grains in these areas likely encouraged the development of agriculture.

[Raphael]

The Göbekli Tepe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe) site's temples are estimated to be from around 9500 BC based on radio carbon tests of the top end of Stratum III (It is estimated that the bottom of Stratum III could be close to 11000BC).

The site was abandoned (deliberately buried) around 8000BC.

This would be, I think the earliest sign of civilisation, and is in Turkey (in the top-end of the basin of the Tigris and Euphrates interestingly enough)

[shunyadragon]

The Göbekli Tepe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe) site's temples are estimated to be from around 9500 BC based on radio carbon tests of the top end of Stratum III (It is estimated that the bottom of Stratum III could be close to 11000BC).

The site was abandoned (deliberately buried) around 8000BC.

This would be, I think the earliest sign of civilisation, and is in Turkey (in the top-end of the basin of the Tigris and Euphrates interestingly enough)

These dates remain comparable to Chinese dates for early cultures. If early temples define a civilization I think the Neanderthal got human beat by more than 30,000 years plus.


The Neanderthal, a people who flourished 100,000 – 40,000 years before present, left many remains of their religious practices –many of which show striking continuity with later times.

Many examples of Neanderthal Shrines and Temples remain. These religious sites have been found within caves where they may have been built for shelter from the elements or because the Spirits worshipped had Chthonic associations. The Neanderthal may have also had outdoor religious sites, but if so these have not been found.

[greentwiga]

As you go back in time, you can always find something more primitive. The Hunter Gatherers had religion, the Harvester communities had religion tailored to their lifestyle during the Bolling-Allerod. The Farming cultures also had religious expressions. Also, if we are reading the evidence right, the Neanderthals had some sort of religion. It helps to have a clearly defined criterion. If we are looking for when rice or wheat was domesticated, we look for clear physical changes or the appearance of clear genetic markers. When we look for the first farming communities, we look for the complete farming package. What criterion are we looking for with religion, the first religious building? The first religious figurine?

[shunyadragon]

As you go back in time, you can always find something more primitive. The Hunter Gatherers had religion, the Harvester communities had religion tailored to their lifestyle during the Bolling-Allerod. The Farming cultures also had religious expressions. Also, if we are reading the evidence right, the Neanderthals had some sort of religion. It helps to have a clearly defined criterion. If we are looking for when rice or wheat was domesticated, we look for clear physical changes or the appearance of clear genetic markers. When we look for the first farming communities, we look for the complete farming package. What criterion are we looking for with religion, the first religious building? The first religious figurine?

The domestication of a crop is not dependent on selective breeding and change in the DNA. It depends on the plant. Many wild plants may be domesticated as they are. and it is most likely that the selective breeding of a plant took place after domestication.

The criterian for looking for a religion is considered the first religious figures and symbols found in the culture, and specific signs of ritual as in the Neanderthal caves. These may be stone, clay, wood, animal remains or a mix of materials. Buildings. like caves are too temporary, and there were likely wood, tent structures and open air alters, and such we have no evidence for today. The Neanderthal cave temples, and the one found in Turkey simply survived because of the nature of the structure used.