Maxell
February 26th 2003, 02:46 PM
Howdy.
I myself asked next:
How do you see covenant with Abraham? What i have understand, it's include all nations, and sign of that covenant was circumcision.
So why Paul forbid circumcision, if it's covenant to all Abraham descendants?
Genesis:
17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a Elohim unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their Elohim.
17:9 And Elohim said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
I found next answer:
That is what the command says. It really just depends on what you mean by need, Edith. If by need you mean "we NEED circumcision in order to be saved or remain saved" then no we don't need it. If you mean "we NEED to be circumcised out of obedience to God because a redeemed person who loves him seeks to obey him" then yes we do need ot be circumcised. the fact still remains, God commanded it and sanctified it as an everlasting covenant. That means regardless of what anyone else says it remains valid and a necessary act of obedience. Funny thing is, for all of those who blubbler on that Paul told us we should not circumcise, it seems the man didn't take his own advice and, being the terrible pharisee he was, still circumcised Timothy. Either the man doesn't live by his own words or he never proclaimed that circumcision should be thrown out.
1Co 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Wait a minute what was the Paul? It's nothing but the keeping of the commands of God? You be the judge, either Paul is declaring the the keeping of the commands of God are unimportant, or he is declaring that circumcision amounts to nothing as far as our redemptive relationship with God is concerned.
I myself asked next:
How do you see covenant with Abraham? What i have understand, it's include all nations, and sign of that covenant was circumcision.
So why Paul forbid circumcision, if it's covenant to all Abraham descendants?
Genesis:
17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a Elohim unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their Elohim.
17:9 And Elohim said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
I found next answer:
That is what the command says. It really just depends on what you mean by need, Edith. If by need you mean "we NEED circumcision in order to be saved or remain saved" then no we don't need it. If you mean "we NEED to be circumcised out of obedience to God because a redeemed person who loves him seeks to obey him" then yes we do need ot be circumcised. the fact still remains, God commanded it and sanctified it as an everlasting covenant. That means regardless of what anyone else says it remains valid and a necessary act of obedience. Funny thing is, for all of those who blubbler on that Paul told us we should not circumcise, it seems the man didn't take his own advice and, being the terrible pharisee he was, still circumcised Timothy. Either the man doesn't live by his own words or he never proclaimed that circumcision should be thrown out.
1Co 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Wait a minute what was the Paul? It's nothing but the keeping of the commands of God? You be the judge, either Paul is declaring the the keeping of the commands of God are unimportant, or he is declaring that circumcision amounts to nothing as far as our redemptive relationship with God is concerned.