Disciplining Brats/r00bz blog ~

[Xmansmommy]

r00bz, I hope you don't mind, but your blog entry for today really ticks me off! I mean, you just can't please people when it comes to disciplining your own children these days. :argh: I can understand that there are many horrific cases of child abuse. But we aren't talking abuse...we're talking spanking when it's appropriate. What's wrong with wanting to deter bad behavior. :rant: Asking nicely doesn't always work! :ahem:

While I understand that the dilema this particular friend of yours is in is because of her own lack of consistency and perhaps even desire, what about the fact that there are other moms out there that haven't placed themselves in such a predicament? What about the kids who are just normal kids who need and desire discipline? Why are we as a society not allowed to, when necessary, discipline our children without having to fear that we might be reported for child abuse? What is wrong with people today? Can't we determine the difference between spanking and abuse? I mean c'mon!

Sorry, but it just ticks me off how people want their cake and eat it too. :fight:

[Rubia Warren]

I hear ya, XMM. And that friend of mine, ALWAYS is gettin other women who watch her, try to take her info, etc. I don't know why, cuz I have done Wayyyyyy worse than her out in public with my kids. I don't beat the crap outta my kids, but I have had a couple situations that were just over the top in public and I had to deal with them right then, and nobody said or did anything (I wasn't hitting them or anything.) But I think so much attention is drawn to her because you cannot help but notice her son and how wild he is, so it's like, all eyes on her.
As I said in my blog, you are darned if you do and darned if you don't. If she lets him run wild and only says, "Now don't do that, come back over here..." people don't like it, it's not enough. But she tries to do something about whatever he is doing, and people got the phone in their hands ready to dial 911.
This society confuses me totally. People don't want you to discipline your kids or get down on them, or even prohibit certain things, actions, etc. from their lives......... yet, when they see somebody whose kids are outta control because of it, they get down on the mom for not disciplining. Go figure.
Now if that had been me, and my kid acted like that, I'd have prolly gone to jail. Cuz I would have told the lady who followed her outside my name, address, SSN, and made sure she spelled it all correctly if she was gonna call and turn me in.

[Rubia Warren]

I knew of a lady who had 6 kids and was single.
When they'd go to walmart or someplace, she'd sit them on the curb and go over the rules with them- she was straight military style with them all the way. They formed single file lines and stuff- she did not let them play!
If they left her side in the store, they'd leave, and not buy anything, if they threw a fit, grabbed things, etc. they'd have to leave......she was strict...... and sticking up outta her purse, just barely enough for the kids to see, was a wooden spoon, just in case all else failed. She rarely used the thing, but it was scary lookin.
Needless to say, they were the best kids out in public, very polite, and respected their mom. She just didn't play around, and didn't care what other people thought.

[yxboom]

I knew of a lady who was in love with this guy named Cletis... :shifty:

[Xmansmommy]

:rofl: I heard that r00bz! You know, it's interesting that if we so much as talk sternly with our children in public we're frowned upon. But do these folks have the foggiest idea what our kids are like in real life? :no: What works for some people just don't cut it for others. Kid are ALWAYS testing our limits. That's normal. But sometimes kids go well beyond our limits and we have as parents, to keep them from rebelling against authority for their own good.

If you let kids know you don't play that, they're less likely to do it. Although sometimes, some kids are willing to take the attention anyway. Sometimes for my son, at this point anyway, all that is necessary is for me to threaten him with a spanking and he will usually straighten up. But sometimes he tests me and I have to prove it. It's not often but it does happen. Funny thing is.....in public he is more likely to listen for some strange reason. I don't understand that one. But it helps that my purse has a detachable strap for easy acccess. :lmbo:!!!! Maybe that's it! Maybe it's handy and he knows it so he's less likely to act a fool in public. Ahhhh the joys of parenthood. :shifty:

[Xmansmommy]

yxboom:

I knew of a lady who was in love with this guy named Cletis... :shifty:

:nc:

[Xmansmommy]

BTW, if you haven't yet read r00bz's blog for today entitled...."My friend's dilema", you should. *shameless plug* :wink:

[themuzicman]

Kids feel love when they find boundaries that are fair, firm, consistent, and associated with firm punishment.

My wife used to have youth group for unchurched kids. These kids included the more wild side of teen culture: drinkers, kids who did drugs, smoked, and pretty much ran wild away from the control of parents.

But they would come to youth group every tuesday night (many of them riding the bus from in town and having to ride back) and hear about Christ?

Why?

The group had rules, they enforced them, they enforced fair consequences for breaking the rules, and they showed these kids that they care about them. They would call the kids by name and ask them how life was going and just be a real friend to them. A LOT of these kids got saved and began coming to "regular" church. A few got their families to come, and THEY got saved, too.

All because a group of Christians made a place with boundaries and love for kids who needed both to come and feel it for a couple of hours every week.

Unfortunately, the head youth pastor at the time and many of the congregation were uncomfortable having "those kids" in "their church", and the group was ended. But my wife still points out and love her "tuesday kids."

Michael

[Xmansmommy]

Awwww Michael, I'm sorry to hear that the group was ended for such trivial reasons. :frown: But PTL for good godly women such as your wife for loving the "unlovable" and giving them what they actually need and long for in their lives. What a wonderful example of the grace of God shown through her! Thanks for sharing. And pearls to you for marrying her. :thumb:

[Rubia Warren]

for reals, that's cool, MM.

[Rubia Warren]

Today @ 11:24 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=283836#post283836)
yxboom:

I knew of a lady who was in love with this guy named Cletis... :shifty:


:noid:

[Rubia Warren]

That was no lady, that was a g-i-r-l.

[elysian]

Everyone is worried about their rugrat's precious "self esteem"-
"Oh look, isn't Finster JUST GREAT! He JUST BREATHED!!! YAY!!"

Now we have a generation of self-centered, lazy, fat, ignorant slobs- with parents and schools who are afraid to discipline them because the kids will threaten:

"I'll just tell the school counselor (or call the police and tell them) that you abuse me."

Ok, color me a dinosaur but when I was growing up:

We were taught Jesus loved us, and that discipleship has a price.

We were involved in our church not just attending worship but being involved in educational programs and service as well.

Bad behavior, mouthiness, disrespect, got you whacked- at home, in school or at church.

There were words you didn't use in polite company.

You were expected to dress modestly and if you didn't you had to march upstairs and change clothes and/or button up, etc.

You were expected to achieve academically to the best of your ability- no excuses and no lame rationalizations.

You were expected to do basic chores without backtalk and without slacking.

You were expected to either go to college or learn a trade, and to acquire gainful employment as soon as the law allowed it.

Now the kids have only one standard: "If it feels good do it, because it's all about ME." So we as parents have to emphasize:

We are not your friend's parents. We are your parents and you abide by OUR rules, not your friend's rules. WE determine what is correct and proper for you. (the tail does NOT wag the dog!)

You are not the little heathens in your school. We have clear expectations for your behavior and achievement as well as clear and predictable sanctions for unacceptable behavior. Get used to it and stop whining.

We provide you with food, shelter, clothing, education and transportation. If you want anything over and above necessities we have a four letter word for you. W-O-R-K. We will gladly provide you with opportunities to EARN the "extra" goodies "all your friends" have.

We are NOT buying designer clothes and shoes for a person who will grow out of them in three months. If you don't like the Thrift Store, go back to the four letter word. W-O-R-K.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15
As long as you are living in our house, worship participation and Christian education are NOT optional. Why? Because you are a child of God, created to serve Him and glorify Him. This is why we provide you with standards and boundaries.

"Discipline your son, for in that there is hope; do not be a willing party to his death." Proverbs 19:18 (NIV)

End of my rant...but it galls me to no end to see these kids growing up with no standards or boundaries. License isn't love!

[themuzicman]

(Not to tarnish myself, but she WAS one of those "tuesday kids", when I met and married her. Classic "Christian all his life and wondering why" meets "party girl looking for stable guy" syndrome. Fortunately, we both found our way back.)

Michael

[mossrose]

I have to say "ditto" to everything you all, especially Elysian have said here. One thing that really bothers me is the state of the school system. We can't discipline our children at home, and the schools aren't allowed to discipline either.

My kids are both grown up now, but when they (and way, WAY back, I) were in school, there were sometimes 30 or more children in a classroom. Class sizes now are usually between 25 and 28 children, and the teachers can't control them, and always need extra help.

I just heard on the news the other night that a couple of schools locally are fitting classes with sound systems (at whose cost?), and the teachers use headset microphones, "so the kids in the back can hear". Why, there is so much noise in the classrooms that this is the only way the children at the back will be able to learn anything. apparantly.

I used to sit in the back, sometimes, and I could hear the teacher fine. My kids never complained about not being able to hear the teacher from the back of the room. That's because the teacher had some authority over us, and we knew we were there to pay attention and no make noise when we weren't supposed to!

Doesn't this just speak of the chaos and confusion that occurs when we aren't able to discipline our children properly? Will our culture ever get the message that proper discipline works, and that a spanking, or other form of discipline done in love and correction is not harming the child, but instead is helping them to grow into the good citizen that everyone wants their children to be? Don't the crime statistics, the gang related incidents, the fact that girls have almost outdone boys in their viciousness and criminal actions make anybody but believers sit up and take note?

There. My rant done too.

[Pilgrim]

It's a problem for us at church. Parents can not or refuse to control thier kids in worship. Since they can't do it they want us to provide a space and time for the kids to go during worship where the parents won't have to worry about it.

These are the same parents who are going to come to me 5 ane 10 years from now wondering why they can't get their kids to listen and behave and all I will be able to tell them is that the set the patterns for all of this from the time their kids were infants and there's not much we can do about it now.

[elysian]

My church provides a nursery for 3 and under- after that age children are expected to participate in worship. We also have an area in the Narthex (back of the church) where parents may take unruly children so they won't disturb others.

When we were growing up my mother was (and she still is) a very strict Catholic. Unless you were comatose you went to Mass. There was no nursery, and if you failed to behave you would get carried outside and whacked. Needless to say I had Mass pretty well memorized by the time I was about four. Knew when to sit-stand-kneel-do the hokey-pokey...because Mom would beat the living daylights out of you if you didn't.:bonk:

My church isn't quite that strict, but we do expect parents to correct their children and control their behavior in worship. It can be done. Most of the kids don't really get too unruly as we do have a lot of music- but sometimes they can't quite make it through the sermon.

[nomad]

did you know that in some early christian writings (i am thinking of st. john cassian in particular, 4th century), self-esteem was considered one of the eight vices (they had 8 instead of 7 deadly sins in the east).

hard to explain unless you read it, because what they mean by 'self-esteem' is a little different from modern understandings, but it did make sense..

[nomad]

elysian, what kind of church is that? my priest calls some part of our church the 'narthex', and i've never heard it anywhere else (nor do i still know where it is :)

[Rubia Warren]

Today @ 03:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=284211#post284211)
nomad:

did you know that in some early christian writings (i am thinking of st. john cassian in particular, 4th century), self-esteem was considered one of the eight vices (they had 8 instead of 7 deadly sins in the east).

hard to explain unless you read it, because what they mean by 'self-esteem' is a little different from modern understandings, but it did make sense..

It makes a lot of sense.... and after years of society worried about people's self-esteem, we now have a whole lots of self centered, lazy bratty people.

[elysian]

I belong to a Lutheran church. The Narthex is the area just as you come in the door, a sort of ante-room or foyer, before you go into the Sanctuary (or Nave) which is the area where the pews are and people sit. In my church there is a set of doors between the Nave and the Narthex, so if you leave the Nave (where worship is going on) there's a door between the congregation and the offending little shaver. We have a monitor set up in the Narthex so that the adults won't miss the sermon if they have to take the children out. It's a way to be courteous to others who are trying to concentrate on the sermon or whatever else is going on, and so that people don't have to leave just because their kid won't behave.

I have a great suggestion for those who are hesitant to discipline (i.e. spank) children in public. I never spanked my son in front of people but I took him to the ladies' room instead. It only happened about 3 or 4 times for him to learn he did not want the indignity a.) of being dragged off and b.) being whacked, c.) being whacked in the ladies' room. Usually only the prospect of being taken to the ladies' room for discipline was enough to remind him to straighten up and fly right.

It still works now, and he's 12. (of course I wouldn't drag a 12 year old who is bigger than I am to the ladies' but he doesn't need to know that)
:thumb:

Child abuse is very, very wrong. Our discipline should never be done in anger but with the aim of doing only what's necessary to correct unacceptable behavior. Allowing a child to become an undisciplined, self-centered heathen is just as abusive as beating him bloody or denying him proper food and shelter.

A good example in Scripture is of Eli's sons Hophni and Phinehas- see 1 Samuel 2:27-34, as well as 1 Samuel 4:11, 18-22.

In failing to discipline our children when they are young, we consign them to spiritual, moral and even premature physical death.

[Sher]

elysian:

I belong to a Lutheran church. The Narthex is the area just as you come in the door, a sort of ante-room or foyer, before you go into the Sanctuary (or Nave) which is the area where the pews are and people sit.

/ot the Episcopal church calls them the same ... you brought back memories of my childhood :smile: (I'm a Baptist now)


I'm not bragging, but my son is/was always one that people bragged to me about ... that he's so well behaved. Of course I say "you should see him at home" :lmbo: ... but if he doesn't cut up in public, then more then half the battle is won.

I agree on discipline. Children need it, and are definitely better behaved when they have it. I am so firmly against child abuse it isn't funny, but children who lack discipline will make horrible parents themselves, and who wants that on their head ... that the next generation will be even more screwed up because of our errors in correcting the behaviours when we see them?

[mossrose]

I have a great suggestion for those who are hesitant to discipline (i.e. spank) children in public. I never spanked my son in front of people but I took him to the ladies' room instead. It only happened about 3 or 4 times for him to learn he did not want the indignity a.) of being dragged off and b.) being whacked, c.) being whacked in the ladies' room. Usually only the prospect of being taken to the ladies' room for discipline was enough to remind him to straighten up and fly right.

My sister's husband's niece (whew...) has a little girl that is just about 2. She acts up in public, and when her mom starts to pick her up and carry her, she KNOWS she is going to the ladies room for a spanking. So she starts to cry and scream "No, no!"

Since the fear is always there that everyone within earshot will have their phones out ready to call CPS, the mom is always sure she has the diaper bag with her, to at least give the impression they are just going for a diaper change. What will happen when the little doll is toilet trained, I don't know.

But it seems to work. No one has called the authorities on her yet......

[India]

One time when I was little, my mom took me to a dept. store. I got away from her and started crawling under the clothes racks, and when she tried to get me out I started yelling, "Don't let her get me!" She was so afraid that everyone would think she was abusing me.

I don't remember my parents spanking me, but just knowing how angry my mom would get if I did anything wrong kept me in line.

[themuzicman]

CPS should ignore anyone who doesn't have kids of their own....

[Alien]

Today @ 05:01 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=287924#post287924)
India:

One time when I was little, my mom took me to a dept. store. I got away from her and started crawling under the clothes racks, and when she tried to get me out I started yelling, "Don't let her get me!" She was so afraid that everyone would think she was abusing me.


That's funny, India.

It reminds me of a "South Park" episode where the kids discover that if they say that their parents have "molestered" them (they have no idea what it means) then the parents get into trouble. So they all do it and all the parents get locked up and the kids are left all alone in the town ....

:smile:

(On topic) What's my take on discipline for kids? My parents never hit me at all (they didn't believe in it) but instead nagged me constantly, which totally blew my confidence in myself (and yes, self esteem is important). There is more than one form of child abuse.

Just a thought for everyone ... yes, kids do need boundaries (if your parents can't protect themselves against you, how can they protect you against the much more powerful world out there?), but let them be kids too (any idea how interminable and boring a church service is to a young child?) and, most importantly, let them be themselves. They don't have to be carbon copies of you.

My child rearing days are over (mostly thankfully, though I miss some aspects) but I have great respect and sympathy for those of you that are still struggling with the most difficult, but also the most important, job in the world. I say this in case anyone takes what I said as criticism. Not intended,believe me.

[mossrose]

Jim Dobson advocates the use of the "Vulcan" grip on the shoulder right where the shoulder joins the neck. Try pinching yourself or a willing volunteer there. It hurts! But, he says it is better than spanking, because usually the behaviour that prompts discipline will end immediately.

Someone asked him when a child would grow too big to use the shoulder pinch. He said, "If you can't reach it, don't do it."

:rofl:

[Rubia Warren]

:lol:

Hey, I'm gonna have to remember that one.......

[Esther]

elysian:

Child abuse is very, very wrong. Our discipline should never be done in anger but with the aim of doing only what's necessary to correct unacceptable behavior. Allowing a child to become an undisciplined, self-centered heathen is just as abusive as beating him bloody or denying him proper food and shelter.

You're absolutely right about that.

mossrose:

Since the fear is always there that everyone within earshot will have their phones out ready to call CPS, the mom is always sure she has the diaper bag with her, to at least give the impression they are just going for a diaper change. What will happen when the little doll is toilet trained, I don't know.

She could just use Xmansmommy's purse strap. (I knew there was a reason I needed a new purse!!!)

themuzicman:

CPS should ignore anyone who doesn't have kids of their own....

CPS shouldn't hire anyone who doesn't have kids either.

Alien:

(On topic) What's my take on discipline for kids? My parents never hit me at all (they didn't believe in it) but instead nagged me constantly, which totally blew my confidence in myself (and yes, self esteem is important). There is more than one form of child abuse.

Thanks for the sobering reminder that nagging is not helpful.

Just a thought for everyone ... yes, kids do need boundaries (if your parents can't protect themselves against you, how can they protect you against the much more powerful world out there?), but let them be kids too (any idea how interminable and boring a church service is to a young child?) and, most importantly, let them be themselves. They don't have to be carbon copies of you.

I agree. With our first one, we were way too hard on him. I think we were of the mindset that he was just a miniature adult who needed to quit slacking off. (Isn't that awful??? The poor kid! Thankfully he's forgiving.) We do try to keep in mind that they are still children who need some slack - we sure need it - and pray to the God of mercy they don't turn out like carbon copies of us. :shocked:

I used to think my son, the one I mentioned above, didn't read anything. He just brought me a glass of experimental Kool-Aid he made. He walked away blushing with a goofy grin on his face.