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DesertBerean
02-13-2017, 10:31 PM
Interesting read about how Jews in New York avoid the prohibition on carrying things in public on the Sabbath:

http://m.mentalfloss.com/article.php?id=91594&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Partner&utm_campaign=FBK

I still can't seem to understand the logic behind some of their prohibitions. I've tried, but the few articles I find don't seen to be written for a poor Gentile like me...

Sparko
02-14-2017, 05:12 AM
It strikes me as "cheating" - If they truly believe in the sabbath and the rules, they would not try to invent "loop holes" to not actually observe it. They are trying to cheat by artificially calling an entire city their "private home" - which it clearly is not.

The whole restrictions on working and carrying on the sabbath have gotten way to extreme in the first place, to not even being able to work a light switch on the sabbath or push an elevator button. It is as bad as the Pharisees in the bible were with creating too many rules and restrictions. But now, to get around their own self imposed restrictions, they create new loop holes to let them cheat. God is probably up there shaking his head in amusement at their antics.

Just Passing Through
02-14-2017, 05:38 AM
The command against carrying things on the Sabbath is derived from Jeremiah 17:19-27, where Jeremiah tells people not to carry a load through the city gate. He also mentions not carrying a load out of your houses, but that seems to be a secondary consideration. So they concluded what they have in common is not where you are carrying something, but that you should not carry something across a boundary or property line, since you could apparently carry things at home and you could carry things within the city. The eruv establish community boundary lines so that there is a clear area in which carrying would be allowed.
Yes, the Jews do go to extremes to create loopholes for the law, but this one isn't as much of a stretch as it might seem. All Manhattan isn't their "home" just because it's inside the wires. It is their community, whose gate they aren't supposed to cross. What seems silly to me is that if the wire breaks, suddenly the community no longer exists, and it becomes sinful to carry anything anywhere on the Sabbath.

Sparko
02-14-2017, 06:14 AM
The command against carrying things on the Sabbath is derived from Jeremiah 17:19-27, where Jeremiah tells people not to carry a load through the city gate. He also mentions not carrying a load out of your houses, but that seems to be a secondary consideration. So they concluded what they have in common is not where you are carrying something, but that you should not carry something across a boundary or property line, since you could apparently carry things at home and you could carry things within the city. The eruv establish community boundary lines so that there is a clear area in which carrying would be allowed.
Yes, the Jews do go to extremes to create loopholes for the law, but this one isn't as much of a stretch as it might seem. All Manhattan isn't their "home" just because it's inside the wires. It is their community, whose gate they aren't supposed to cross. What seems silly to me is that if the wire breaks, suddenly the community no longer exists, and it becomes sinful to carry anything anywhere on the Sabbath.

yeesh. Why can't they just say that the ocean around Manhattan is the boundary?

Yep. Orthodox Jews are just as Pharisaical as always.

hansgeorg
02-14-2017, 06:31 AM
Why can't they just say that the ocean around Manhattan is the boundary?

Good point.

psstein
02-14-2017, 07:34 AM
yeesh. Why can't they just say that the ocean around Manhattan is the boundary?

The Talmud sets a distance beyond which one cannot travel on the Sabbath. That's why.

Sparko
02-14-2017, 07:39 AM
The Talmud sets a distance beyond which one cannot travel on the Sabbath. That's why.Well considering they have most of Manhattan already surrounded by the Eruv wire, it would not make much difference. Besides, even if the distance was greater than they could travel on the sabbath, doesn't mean they have to travel it.

Faber
02-14-2017, 07:51 AM
The Talmud sets a distance beyond which one cannot travel on the Sabbath. That's why.

It was called a Sabbath Day's Journey, I believe a little less than a mile. It was the distance the Israelites were allowed to travel within the camp in the wilderness from the farthest point of the camp to the tabernacle. They figured that if they were allowed to travel that distance, it was okay.

Sparko
02-14-2017, 07:56 AM
It was called a Sabbath Day's Journey, I believe a little less than a mile. It was the distance the Israelites were allowed to travel within the camp in the wilderness from the farthest point of the camp to the tabernacle. They figured that if they were allowed to travel that distance, it was okay.

well then, the eruv is already twice as large as that in width alone.


20900

Marta
02-14-2017, 09:47 AM
The command against carrying things on the Sabbath is derived from Jeremiah 17:19-27, where Jeremiah tells people not to carry a load through the city gate. He also mentions not carrying a load out of your houses, but that seems to be a secondary consideration. So they concluded what they have in common is not where you are carrying something, but that you should not carry something across a boundary or property line, since you could apparently carry things at home and you could carry things within the city. The eruv establish community boundary lines so that there is a clear area in which carrying would be allowed.
Yes, the Jews do go to extremes to create loopholes for the law, but this one isn't as much of a stretch as it might seem. All Manhattan isn't their "home" just because it's inside the wires. It is their community, whose gate they aren't supposed to cross. What seems silly to me is that if the wire breaks, suddenly the community no longer exists, and it becomes sinful to carry anything anywhere on the Sabbath.

Nehemiah’s Final Reforms: This first line out of Nehemiah is very important. There seems to be correlations between Jesus and the moneychangers with how Nehemiah was explaining the law to the people about the Shabbath. Nehemiah reorganize the way the temple system ran but also, introduced back the assembly of the people to “hear” and “listen” to the law on the Shabbath.

Nehemiah 8

2 So on the first day of the seventh month Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly, which was made up of men and women and all who were able to understand. 3 He read it aloud from daybreak till noon as he faced the square before the Water Gate in the presence of the men, women and others who could understand. And all the people listened attentively to the Book of the Law. 4 Ezra the teacher of the Law stood on a high wooden platform built for the occasion.

As the people stood around listening/hearing the law being read, it must of felt like music to one’s ears. The Jewish people needed a leader and away to set things right with God. Nehemiah brought this to the people – if you read the passages prior, you will find out that the people were even charging interest on money to their own people:


Nehemiah Helps the Poor – Chapter 5

5 Now the men and their wives raised a great outcry against their fellow Jews. 2 Some were saying, “We and our sons and daughters are numerous; in order for us to eat and stay alive, we must get grain.”
3 Others were saying, “We are mortgaging our fields, our vineyards and our homes to get grain during the famine.”
4 Still others were saying, “We have had to borrow money to pay the king’s tax on our fields and vineyards. 5 Although we are of the same flesh and blood as our fellow Jews and though our children are as good as theirs, yet we have to subject our sons and daughters to slavery. Some of our daughters have already been enslaved, but we are powerless, because our fields and our vineyards belong to others.”
6 When I heard their outcry and these charges, I was very angry. 7 I pondered them in my mind and then accused the nobles and officials. I told them, “You are charging your own people interest!” So I called together a large meeting to deal with them 8 and said: “As far as possible, we have bought back our fellow Jews who were sold to the Gentiles. Now you are selling your own people, only for them to be sold back to us!”


14 Remember me for this, my God, and do not blot out what I have so faithfully done for the house of my God and its services.

15 In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. 16 People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. 17 I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? 18 Didn’t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.”

19 When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. 20 Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. 21 But I warned them and said, “Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.” From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. 22 Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.

Remember me for this also, my God, and show mercy to me according to your great love.

************


So, What makes the comment that Nehemiah said to the people (What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day?) any different than the passage coming out of Matthew with the money changers? Jesus Cleanses the Temple - the title to the page:

11 The crowds replied, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.” 12 Then Jesus went into the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those selling doves. 13 And He declared to them, “It is written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer.’ But you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”…

Didn't Nehemiah go to the people in the same way that Jesus did - Jesus wasn't acting any different than Nehemiah when it came to his anger? "13 I also shook out the folds of my robe and said, “In this way may God shake out of their house and possessions anyone who does not keep this promise. So may such a person be shaken out and emptied!”

What the Shabbath represented was God’s rest – Genesis. The apostle Paul said that some will not enter God’s rest, “3Now we who have believed enter that rest. As for the others, it is just as God has said:“So I swore on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter My rest.’”And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world. 4For somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in this manner: “And on the seventh day God rested from all His works.”…

Like the Great Shabbat coming out of Egypt - the people shared what they had with others who didn't have. This was a day to rejoice and be with family and friends who shared in that happiness because the Shabbath was a day of rest (7th day). The Shabbath was a day for "everyone". The Shabbat is the “Bride” or “Queen” of Judaism. Around the Shabbat is the religion of Moses, David, Isaiah, Nehemiah and Yeshua based. Everything in Judaism and certainly the entire Bible orbits the Shabbat.

The first occasion would suggest a pattern for all the created order to follow, e.g., taking a day for spiritual refreshing after six days of labor. The second cause for Shabbat (Ex 20:8-11) was uniquely the heritage of the Chosen People. Those whose ancestry had been liberated by God from Egyptian slavery were privileged to forever commemorate that liberation from unrelenting bondage by honoring the rest day of freed men. This is one reason we find the Passover Exodus experience and the keeping of Shabbat so intertwined both in Scripture and Jewish liturgy.

The Eruv:


A community eruv refers to the legal aggregation or "mixture" under Jewish religious property law of separate parcels of property meeting certain requirements into a single parcel held in common by all the holders of the original parcels, which enables Jews who observe the traditional rules concerning Shabbat to carry children and belongings anywhere within the jointly held property without transgressing the prohibition against carrying a burden across a property line on Jewish Sabbath. The legal aggregation is set up to have effect on Shabbat and Yom Kippur only; on all other days, including Yom Tov, ordinary property ownership applies. A valid aggregation has a number of requirements including an agreement among the property-holders and an aggregation ritual.

An eruv; Hebrew: עירוב‎, "mixture", also transliterated as eiruv or erub, plural: eruvin is a ritual enclosure that some Jewish communities, and especially Orthodox Jewish communities, constructed in their neighborhoods as a way to permit Jewish residents or visitors to carry certain objects outside their own homes on Sabbath and Yom Kippur. An eruv accomplishes this by integrating a number of private and public properties into one larger private domain, thereby avoiding restrictions on carrying objects from the private to the public domain on Sabbath and holidays.

Marta
02-14-2017, 10:02 AM
well then, the eruv is already twice as large as that in width alone.


20900


It not so much as the Eruv - it is about what's being brought within the perimeter that the Jewish people have to be careful. By creating a boundary around an area that has many Jewish residents legally creating a community. Like a Wall - Read Nehemiah.

Add-On:

UK's first Jewish boundary in use (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2806289.stm)

DesertBerean
02-14-2017, 10:29 AM
Interesting, Marta.

Sparko
02-14-2017, 10:41 AM
Interesting, Marta.really? I couldn't follow a thing she said.

Marta
02-14-2017, 12:49 PM
really? I couldn't follow a thing she said.

Hmmm? The topic being the Eruv and how the Jewish people were not permitted to travel outside of the boundaries (within the perimeters, if necessary) on the Shabbath.


An eruv; Hebrew: עירוב‎, "mixture", also transliterated as eiruv or erub, plural: eruvin is a ritual enclosure that some Jewish communities, and especially Orthodox Jewish communities, constructed in their neighborhoods as a way to permit Jewish residents or visitors to carry certain objects outside their own homes on Sabbath and Yom Kippur. An eruv accomplishes this by integrating a number of private and public properties into one larger private domain, thereby avoiding restrictions on carrying objects from the private to the public domain on Sabbath and holidays.


In the book of Nehemiah - deals with this subject, the prophet stated, "Let every one with his servant lodge within Jerusalem". The Eruv - is set up in the same way, when describing the perimeter. Also, and in Nehemiah 10 the people made a solemn covenant to God that they would not do three things: have ungodly romantic relationships (10:30), buy and sell on the Sabbath (10:31), and support the work of God with money as He commanded (10:32-39). In addition, the people were bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath.


In addition: and with this thought about the Eruv,

The law states - Halacha, Halakha, The spirit of the law also forbids the transfer of ownership, even inside a building. The Sanhedrin legislated a prohibition against all forms of buying, selling, trading and other commerce for a variety of reasons. The Sabbath must be a day when all business stops. (Note 7)

It is interesting to note that the prohibition against commerce is one of the few types of legislation actually recorded in the Bible. Thus, we find (Nechemiah 10:32), “If the (non-Jewish) natives of the land bring any goods or food to sell on the Sabbath day, we will buy nothing from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day.” (Note 8)


In thought - Sparko, the idea was that "anything" (meaning goods to sell or to trade) that were brought into the city (eruv - is in the same respect, as within the city walls of Jerusalem) was (and under Nehemiah) forbidden - it was considered under "burdening" the congregation in a sense. Under law, and dealing with the parameters of Tircha D'Tzibbur, it could constitute as burdening the congregation or disrupting "that rest" on the Shabbath. It was forbidden to do business on that day whether it was within the city or outside of the city. However, the prophet "slept" outside the perimeter of the city to prevent anything from "burdening" the community. Hopefully, I am not in error on this subject -


Given that the concept of tircha de-tzibura is based on the obligation to respect and honor the congregation—an assumption that emerges from the above Gemara, as well as from other sources in Chazal (see, for instance, Sotah 39b)—does this imply a Torah obligation or a rabbinic enactment?

The basic halachah of affording the congregation due honor appears to be a Torah obligation. Concerning the honor we must afford to other individuals, the Torah instructs us to “Love your fellow as yourself” (Vayikra 19:17). Giving others due honor, as one would desire for oneself, is part of “loving one’s fellow as oneself,” which is clearly a Torah mitzvah (as ruled by the Rambam, De’os 6:3). The honor of a community or congregation is certainly no less weighty than the honor of individuals, and if a Torah mitzvah obligates us to honor our fellow individuals, we can assume that the same mitzvah applies to honoring the public.

Marta
02-14-2017, 12:53 PM
really? I couldn't follow a thing she said.

Is it more clear?

Marta
02-15-2017, 12:55 PM
really? I couldn't follow a thing she said.

The Eruv and in relationship with this passage out of Nehemiah "centers" on the understanding on the boundary lines during Shabbath- it means that the doors shut and that "nothing" can or will disturb "the rest" of the Shabbath, -


19 It came about that just as it grew dark at the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I commanded that the doors should be shut and that they should not open them until after the Sabbath. Then I stationed some of my servants at the gates so that no load would enter on the Sabbath day. 20 Once or twice the traders and merchants of every kind of merchandise spent the night outside Jerusalem.…



The Shabbath and the "idea" of the relationship during that time becomes "united" - close to God. It is taking "one" day out of the week and centering oneself on God. Everything has to come to a stop - or has to come to a rest. Nehemiah had "closed" the gates to the city as to "not" burden the people on the Shabbath. Nehemiah (also) made this point about the Shabbath - their ancestors did the same thing and brought the wrath of God down on the city. If you read John 2 - Jesus was angry enough to get out the whip! As the verse states, "So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” 17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”


The confusion is what was the purpose of the Eruv, what is it suppose to prevent? The carrying of object from public to a private domain? My point is that I think it's more than that? Basing my opinion on the book of Nehemiah. Nehemiah instituted reforms that strengthened their future observance. Nehemiah had "guarded" the people from desecrating the Shabbath but why (in Jesus's time) didn't the Rabbi's cleanse out the temple themselves?

I don't believe that you can "fence" around the laws of Shabbath but you can attend to everyday "necessities" of living and transportation during those times, and as the people have done - set up parameters.



What's The Point Of An Eruv?
The Halacha of Eruvim. (http://www.pjvoice.com/v15/15703eruv.html)

Note: Fences may be used as part of the boundary without modification; however, if the ground is eroded beneath the fence to any significant degree, the space must be filled in. Lastly, all the areas to be enclosed must be "residential areas," or areas suitable for residential areas. It is not permitted to include cemeteries or bodies of water (such as lakes, streams, and ponds). Such areas must be excluded from the Eruv by enclosing them (either by not including them in the Eruv area, or by encircling them within the Eruv).

An Eruv is generally designed by encircling a community with a continuous string or wire. There are numerous regulations concerning the placement of this wire. Those who live in and use an Eruv have an obligation to ensure that the Eruv is intact before taking advantage of its presence. Usually, there is a group that maintains the Eruv that provides such information, and conducts weekly inspections.

The purpose is stated in the message, "He was told that this was the place where God would "dwell" among his people" - creating a place for uniting the Jewish people with God! No matter where you're located or live, you can always "create" a place (even within your own home) as a designated place where you can rest and be with God.


But Nehemiah did more than rebuild a wall, as we will learn. This book is also the story of the restoring of a people from ruin and despair to a new walk with God. Jerusalem is not only an historic city which has for centuries been the center of the life of the nation of Israel (and, in fact, the center of the biblical record), it is also a symbolic city. Jerusalem is also used in a pictorial sense throughout the Scriptures. What it pictures is the place where God desires to dwell. When the city was first designated to King David as the place where God wanted him to build the temple, he was told that this was the place where God would dwell among his people.

Marta
02-16-2017, 12:48 PM
really? I couldn't follow a thing she said.

In thought - Sparko, the idea was that "anything" (meaning goods to sell or to trade) that were brought into the city (eruv - is in the same respect, as within the city walls of Jerusalem) was (and under Nehemiah) forbidden - it was considered under "burdening" the congregation in a sense. Under law, and dealing with the parameters of Tircha D'Tzibbur, it could constitute as burdening the congregation or disrupting "that rest" on the Shabbath. It was forbidden to do business on that day whether it was within the city or outside of the city. However, the prophet "slept" outside the perimeter of the city to prevent anything from "burdening" the community. Hopefully, I am not in error on this subject:

Jeremiah and the Prohibition of Carrying

Jeremiah 17:19–27 condemns mercantile pursuits that involve carrying a “load” or “burden (משא)” through the gates of Jerusalem—but the passage does not define what qualifies as a “burden.”[5] Moreover, although in context Jeremiah is condemning business practices, which he illustrates with the imagery of people carrying bundles of their wares out to the marketplace, later readers of this passage saw especially in verses 21–22 a more general proscription against carrying, and thus used it to form a more general prescriptive Sabbath law.

ירמיה יז:כא כֹּ֚ה אָמַ֣ר יְ-הֹוָ֔ה הִשָּׁמְר֖וּ בְּנַפְשֽׁוֹתֵיכֶ֑ם וְאַל־תִּשְׂא֤וּ מַשָּׂא֙ בְּי֣וֹם הַשַּׁבָּ֔ת וַהֲבֵאתֶ֖ם בְּשַׁעֲרֵ֥י יְרוּשָׁלִָֽם: יז:כב וְלֹא־תוֹצִ֨יאוּ מַשָּׂ֤א מִבָּֽתֵּיכֶם֙ בְּי֣וֹם הַשַּׁבָּ֔ת וְכָל־מְלָאכָ֖ה לֹ֣א תַֽעֲשׂ֑וּ וְקִדַּשְׁתֶּם֙ אֶת־י֣וֹם הַשַּׁבָּ֔ת כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר צִוִּ֖יתִי אֶת־אֲבוֹתֵיכֶֽם:
Jer 17:21 Thus said the Yhwh: Guard yourselves for your own sake against carrying burdens on the Sabbath day, and bringing them through the gates of Jerusalem. 17:22 Nor shall you carry out burdens from your houses on the Sabbath day, or do any work, but you shall hallow the Sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.


The Thirty-Nine Categories of Sabbath Work - Carrying is only "one" area that is prohibited:

nswer: The Mishna [Shabbat 7:2] lists the major categories of work that are prohibited on Shabbat: The primary forms of work are forty less one, … carrying out from one domain to another. Thus carrying is one of the main archetypal forms of labour on Shabbat.

The Halacha divides the world into four different kinds of areas, known as domains; a public domain, a private domain, a Carmelit and an exempt place. It is forbidden to carry from a private domain into a public domain or Carmelit (or vice versa). There are rules about carrying within each of these domains.

A private domain is an area that is enclosed by walls with only a minimal number of gaps for windows and doors. Carrying is permitted in a private domain. A public domain is a large public area where 600,000 people pass through each day. There is much debate as to how this is calculated, but only the most densely populated cities qualify as a public domain. It is forbidden to carry for a distance of more than four Amot (roughly two meters) in a public domain. A Carmelit is between public and private – it does not have walls so it does not count as being private and it does not have enough people in it to be considered public. The Rabbis have decreed that a Carmelit is to be treated as a public place and therefore carrying is forbidden within it. A Carmelit may be transformed into a private domain by surrounding it with walls and this is called an Eruv.. Once the Carmelit has been enclosed, carrying within it is permitted. An exempt place is so small that it does not qualify as being a space at all. Cycling on Shabbat (II) – Carrying (https://jewishlaw.wordpress.com/category/shabbat/)

*********************




The subject - as a whole, is the word "burden" - as scripture states, "Guard yourselves for your own sake against carrying burdens on the Sabbath day". Again, the idea of carrying is listed as labor - and then, as noted: carrying a “load” or “burden (משא)” through the gates of Jerusalem—but the passage does not define what qualifies as a “burden.” Burden can constitute something that is a duty, obligation, or responsibility - as in the New Testament, it states, in Matthew 11:28, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. And viewing this same line out of Matthew, "Cast your burden upon Hashem and He will sustain you."

There's a beautiful sentiment about this

The implication of this verse is that when one is confronted with a problem, not only can he feel secure that Hashem will help him deal with and overcome it, but he can take that problem and, so to speak, "throw it upon Hashem" - He can "cast". He can relieve himself from the worry and anxiety caused by it by "CASTING IT UPON HASHEM" so that he can feel that it has now become Hashem's burden and not his problem any longer. "BEHOLD, I WILL TRUST IN G-D, my SAVIOR, and WILL NOT FEAR, etc..." Reflections of the Heart (https://www.priority-1.org/wp-content/uploads/publications/ReflectionsOfTheHeart.pdf)

Many things constitute "Carrying" - but again, the thought is "CASTING" those burdens - loads/work "AWAY" for one day and centering on God.



Sparko, I don't mean to be confusing, however, some categories of prohibitions on Shabbat might have a double meaning to them - or a larger meaning. Even according to Jeremiah and Nehemiah, I believe, was they were centralizing "Shabbath" regulations. So it's my bad

Sparko
02-16-2017, 12:52 PM
nope still not getting your point. I never asked about the history of the subject. I was pointing out the legalistic and ridiculous idea in the first place and how the whole thing is nothing but a "cheat" in the first place.

DesertBerean
02-16-2017, 01:17 PM
really? I couldn't follow a thing she said. Lol... I guess it depends on what one is looking for. The info I had been looking at was way over my head in terms of explaining their mindset. I believe Marta was able to help me out. Doesn't mean I understand it ALL... I just got a clue into seeing where they're coming from.

One Bad Pig
02-16-2017, 02:34 PM
It strikes me as "cheating" - If they truly believe in the sabbath and the rules, they would not try to invent "loop holes" to not actually observe it. They are trying to cheat by artificially calling an entire city their "private home" - which it clearly is not.

The whole restrictions on working and carrying on the sabbath have gotten way to extreme in the first place, to not even being able to work a light switch on the sabbath or push an elevator button. It is as bad as the Pharisees in the bible were with creating too many rules and restrictions. But now, to get around their own self imposed restrictions, they create new loop holes to let them cheat. God is probably up there shaking his head in amusement at their antics.
Well, the basic prohibition is against working on the sabbath. Since "work" isn't explicitly designed, the intent of the extra laws is to make sure one doesn't accidentally violate the main prohibition. The scribes got a little carried away with that, IMO. It seems to me that the intent of the "sabbath day's journey" was to limit not so much how far one could go, but where one could go (i.e., the tabernacle). Given that driving takes rather less energy than walking, and that going to worship at synagogue would seem to be something which God would encourage, it seems faintly ridiculous to me that, e.g., driving 45 minutes to synagogue (or even bringing a dish of food along) would violate anything. :shrug:

Faber
02-16-2017, 05:51 PM
Given that driving takes rather less energy than walking, and that going to worship at synagogue would seem to be something which God would encourage, it seems faintly ridiculous to me that, e.g., driving 45 minutes to synagogue (or even bringing a dish of food along) would violate anything.

If you're driving a four cylinder internal combustion vehicle at 3,000 RPM for 45 minutes, you will have broken the Sabbath 5.4 million times before you get to the synagogue.

rogue06
02-16-2017, 06:13 PM
It strikes me as "cheating" - If they truly believe in the sabbath and the rules, they would not try to invent "loop holes" to not actually observe it. They are trying to cheat by artificially calling an entire city their "private home" - which it clearly is not.

The whole restrictions on working and carrying on the sabbath have gotten way to extreme in the first place, to not even being able to work a light switch on the sabbath or push an elevator button. It is as bad as the Pharisees in the bible were with creating too many rules and restrictions. But now, to get around their own self imposed restrictions, they create new loop holes to let them cheat. God is probably up there shaking his head in amusement at their antics.
It's like Catholics who in earlier centuries would lower a chunk of meat into a well and "fish it out" on Friday in order to get around the prohibition against eating meat on that day.

Sparko
02-17-2017, 05:48 AM
Well, the basic prohibition is against working on the sabbath. Since "work" isn't explicitly designed, the intent of the extra laws is to make sure one doesn't accidentally violate the main prohibition. The scribes got a little carried away with that, IMO. It seems to me that the intent of the "sabbath day's journey" was to limit not so much how far one could go, but where one could go (i.e., the tabernacle). Given that driving takes rather less energy than walking, and that going to worship at synagogue would seem to be something which God would encourage, it seems faintly ridiculous to me that, e.g., driving 45 minutes to synagogue (or even bringing a dish of food along) would violate anything. :shrug:

It's like Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. God gave us the sabbath as a GIFT not a burden.

Men created their own onerous rules to burden themselves, and then they come up with ways to cheat on those rules that God never intended in the first place.

Sparko
02-17-2017, 05:53 AM
It's like Catholics who in earlier centuries would lower a chunk of meat into a well and "fish it out" on Friday in order to get around the prohibition against eating meat on that day.:doh:

psstein
02-17-2017, 01:30 PM
Well, the basic prohibition is against working on the sabbath. Since "work" isn't explicitly designed, the intent of the extra laws is to make sure one doesn't accidentally violate the main prohibition. The scribes got a little carried away with that, IMO. It seems to me that the intent of the "sabbath day's journey" was to limit not so much how far one could go, but where one could go (i.e., the tabernacle). Given that driving takes rather less energy than walking, and that going to worship at synagogue would seem to be something which God would encourage, it seems faintly ridiculous to me that, e.g., driving 45 minutes to synagogue (or even bringing a dish of food along) would violate anything. :shrug:

It's creative work that is forbidden, not work more generally. The reason driving is forbidden (at least by the Orthodox) is that it makes use of creative energy.

Many of the restrictions that Orthodox Jewry (and some Conservative Jews, though an increasingly vanishing group in Conservatism) holds to are largely designed to prevent the commandment from being broken at all. For example, the prohibition against eating chicken with dairy is designed to prevent accidental transgression.

Here's a relevant section from the Mishnah: http://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Chullin.8.4?lang=bi

One Bad Pig
02-17-2017, 02:22 PM
It's creative work that is forbidden, not work more generally. The reason driving is forbidden (at least by the Orthodox) is that it makes use of creative energy.
:hrm: Yet IIRC the test case in the Torah is someone picking up sticks on the Sabbath, which doesn't sound all that creative to me. :shrug:


Many of the restrictions that Orthodox Jewry (and some Conservative Jews, though an increasingly vanishing group in Conservatism) holds to are largely designed to prevent the commandment from being broken at all. For example, the prohibition against eating chicken with dairy is designed to prevent accidental transgression.
Yep, that I'm clear on - it's just that, with your particular example, the prohibition is based on pagan worship practice (the ritual boiling of a kid in its mother's milk), and it's kind of difficult to accidentally worship something.

Marta
02-17-2017, 03:24 PM
Lol... I guess it depends on what one is looking for. The info I had been looking at was way over my head in terms of explaining their mindset. I believe Marta was able to help me out. Doesn't mean I understand it ALL... I just got a clue into seeing where they're coming from.

Wasn't it a mind opener - getting into the information drew some scriptural passages with me from the New Testament about the Shabbath. What came to my mind was how Jesus was angered by the selling and the exchanging money, or working on the Shabbath (as scripture states, "When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover) and emphasizing the verse toward the end, "Zeal for your house will consume me.”


That same "Zeal" Jesus showed = Nehemiah orders to close the gates at sunset on Friday (Nehemiah testify in word, and threaten forcible action which effectually removed the evil. Same thing), but then; he requires the Levites to cleanse themselves and to guard the gates so that no one violates the Sabbath. These scriptural points were identical in their display of temperaments so that it was understandable among the people to "remember" what the Shabbath was and who it was for. As I asked this question, "The way Jesus ordered all of it out of the temple area - would have been what Nehemiah had ordered! As he warned the merchants of his day:

But the merchants camp outside the walls of the city. Even this, Nehemiah forbids, warning that if they do it again, he will send men out after them. This passage teaches us that those who find themselves in positions of influence toward God’s people are responsible to exercise that influence to guard the sanctity of His holy day.


"God said to Israel, “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day” (Deuteronomy 5:15). He required the people "after being slaves for 400 years" to rest and to unburden themselves from the bondage.




Shamor: To Observe (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/shabbat.htm)


Most English speakers see the word "work" and think of it in the English sense of the word: physical labor and effort, or employment. Under this definition, lighting a match would be permitted, because it does not require effort, but a waiter would not be permitted to serve food on Shabbat, because that is his employment. Jewish law prohibits the former and permits the latter. Many English speakers therefore conclude that Jewish law does not make any sense.

The problem lies not in Jewish law, but in the definition that English speakers are using. The Torah does not prohibit "work" in the 20th century English sense of the word. The Torah prohibits "melachah" (Mem-Lamed-Alef-Kaf-Heh), which is usually translated as "work", but does not mean precisely the same thing as the English word. Before you can begin to understand the Shabbat restrictions, you must understand the word "melachah".

Melachah generally refers to the kind of work that is creative, or that exercises control or dominion over your environment. (In Other Words - Slavery, or a form of Slavery) The quintessential example of melachah is the work of creating the universe, which God ceased from doing on the seventh day. Note that God's work did not require a great physical effort: he spoke, and it was done.


Reference:

Read the Scripture: Nehemiah 13:15-22 (http://www.raystedman.org/daily-devotions/nehemiah/the-true-sabbath-rest)

Shabbat: Shamor: To Observe (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/shabbat.htm)

Marta
02-17-2017, 03:40 PM
Good point.


Title: This article discusses your comment

So what does one do if one cannot close the area with doors? (http://rabbikaganoff.com/tag/eruv/)

Marta
02-17-2017, 03:45 PM
It's like Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. God gave us the sabbath as a GIFT not a burden.

Men created their own onerous rules to burden themselves, and then they come up with ways to cheat on those rules that God never intended in the first place.

Didn't say that it was a burden - What I said was that during Shabbath people should be "free" of burdens and referencing to the fact that you should "Cast" your burden onto God. Even Jesus said the same thing:

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Marta
02-19-2017, 10:55 AM
nope still not getting your point. I never asked about the history of the subject. I was pointing out the legalistic and ridiculous idea in the first place and how the whole thing is nothing but a "cheat" in the first place.

New post on Shabbath - since this isn't getting us anywhere. Subject, “shamor” – guard and observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy. “shamor,” the legal, ritualistic observance of the commandments of the day regarding work.

Marta
02-19-2017, 10:58 AM
:doh:

:fishing:

Marta
02-19-2017, 11:36 AM
:hrm: Yet IIRC the test case in the Torah is someone picking up sticks on the Sabbath, which doesn't sound all that creative to me. :shrug:

Yep, that I'm clear on - it's just that, with your particular example, the prohibition is based on pagan worship practice (the ritual boiling of a kid in its mother's milk), and it's kind of difficult to accidentally worship something.

SHAMOR (safeguard) is the Commandment to avoid violation of the negative precepts of the Shabbat.

This is fulfilling the "safeguarding" aspects of Shabbat by refraining from 39 categories of "melacha" (creative activity), which the Jews had to perform on weekdays in order to build the Mishkan. Also refraining from other activities, which may be halachically permitted, but are not fitting or appropriate on this special day.

Point - look at this picture within this post (hopefully - it came through) and tell me what the Jewish people are creating in the "Eruv"? A dwelling place - and like Nehemiah, the people are setting boundaries and guarding the Shabbath within the circumference. The point being made is that "what" your looking into and what your setting boundary's on when discussing the word "traveling". The way to avoid violating the Shabbath from going from public to a private sector (however) within the eruv - even though (in necessity) one should be able to move or maneuver around.

There are many listed violations - prohibitions on the Shabbath, "traveling and carrying" is only a couple of them. The "idea" in the previous post is how "Nehemiah" (and according to the laws of Shabbath) had to guard the gates of Jerusalem - in order, to stop the merchants from entering, this being another. The reference within the book of Nehemiah was on the fact of avoiding God's wrath - did you think that you can "fence" that in? His wrath? or move around it? Nope. So, the other idea is on the word "rest" - actually, after God created the universe, we "creation - all of creation" entered God's rest, 7th day. When the Jewish people were released from their bondage they entered into "God's Rest - Shabbath". When Christ was born and God gave us a year of favor, all of creation (again) entered into God's rest, peace - Shalom.

Luke 4: 18-19 to proclaim the Lord’s year of favour.20988