The Trinity and Scripture

[voidhawk]

Help requested.

I am intermittently debating with some Jehovah’s Witnesses in RL. I have found myself defending the Trinitarian view point (don’t ask).

:eek:

Only I’m not very good at it although I'm learning fast.

Could some kind Trinitarians please point me to some more places in Scripture that support the Trinitarian position?

I know this has been covered before in other threads over the whole of Tweb. I don’t at the moment have the time to search all the thread. Also :bawl: I don’t have access to broadband and am working off a 56k modem which makes waiting for the pages to load tedious.

Thanks in Advance

[2CO416]

Tactically, I suggest you start not with the Trinity as such, but with the deity of Christ. If you can establish that, the rest of the Trinity follows naturally.

Start with passages that show Christ was called God. John's gospel contains perhaps the most references to this: John 1:1, 20:28 among them.

I highly recommend Wayne Grudem's Systematic theology (available at Amazon.com). It goes into the detail you will need to be an effective apologist on this matter. Just knowing a few verses here and there will not cut it with a trained JW.

A link to an in-depth treatment of this on the web is found here: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin01.html.

[markporter]

hehe, this amuses me. An atheist defending church doctrine....

[fwcrev]

To accurately describe God, you must stick with biblical terminology. Traditional attempts include words like "Trinity," "God the Son," and "co-equal," but to be intellectually honest, these terms are not found in the Bible. If the Bible is the inspired Word of God (which I believe it is), then isn't God capable of telling us who He is?

So what does He say about Himself?

He says He's one (and not three):
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!" Deut. 6:4
"That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other..." Isaiah 45:6

The God of the Old Testament became the Savior of the New Testament:
"I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:11
"Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me." Hosea 13:5
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." Luke 2:11

Jesus, God in flesh, was the image of God and is the Creator of the world:
"Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" John 14:9
"...Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

To define the Godhead as three different persons is to inaccurately describe His person. For example, if God is a spirit and the Holy Ghost is a spirit, then how many spirits are there in heaven? Two? Guess again. There is only one spirit and THAT spirit "overshadowed" Mary and caused her to conceive.

Another example: Isaiah said (9:6), "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." How can the name of Jesus be called the mighty God AND the everlasting Father if He were not one and the same?

[Dee Dee Warren]

This is a nondebate area, and answer must be tailored to the specific request of the thread starter. Thanks.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Here is an article I wrote here on TWe b

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3024

It is a Trinitarian argument as against Arian Unitarianism such as JWs or Christadelphians.

[Jaltus]

Take a stroll through Romans 8 and note the wonderful Trinitarian tapestry woven from the various threads of Paul's arguments.

[voidhawk]

Thanks to everybody who has responed.


To 2CO416
I didn’t occure to me to demonstrate Christ’s divinty before the Trinity but I can see some advantages to that position. I am planning on re-reading John’s Gospel closely over Christmas.

To DeeDee
Thanks for the link. I have printed off your paper and will read it this weekend.

To Jaltus
I will follow your recommendation and read the letter to the Romans again and pay particular attention to Chapter 8. Are there any verses you would point to? Or does the whole chapter supply the context.

To MarkPorter.
I know it seems funny but sometimes during debates I try to imagine what it would be like to be a Christian to better understand the other persons point of view. I happen to think that the JW interpretation of Scripture is in error especially John’s Gospel. BTW when I say error I mean not in accodance with the intent of the original writer I went to Church of England schools as a child and still feel comfatable with that view of Christianity, High Anglican, Trintitarian.

If anybody has any more points and tips I will read them gratefully.

[geebob]

one thing you can point out is that the "shema" doesn't really say "here O israel, the Lord is one" suggesting God as an isolated simple monad but rather it is better rendered "here O israel, Yahweh is your God, Yahweh alone."


Also, I have a really good section copied out of a book that although it says that the New testament claim of Jesus as God (as in deity) is often sparse and many of the passages are questionable, However, it is well established that Jesus is Lord, or more specifically He is Lord in the sense that He is Yahweh. I'd post an example if I find the paper some time.

[Jaltus]

I will follow your recommendation and read the letter to the Romans again and pay particular attention to Chapter 8. Are there any verses you would point to? Or does the whole chapter supply the context.

The entire chapter. I just wrote a paper encorporating that idea into my conclusion (my paper was on theology proper in Romans 8).

[BKofNM]

[i]If anybody has any more points and tips I will read them gratefully.


How about "The Trinity Solves Problems" by Greg Koukl.
http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/trinsolv.htm

One thing that you have to remember about the Trinity is that it is very hard to picture in your mind. That is why people try to use eggs, boomboxes, water, etc. Almost all of these examples fail because there is no perfect analogy for the Trinity on earth.

People often reject the Trinity because it stretches their ability to understand something without an analogy. But just because it requires thought does not make it not true.

BK

[kofh2u]

macrotrinity? microtrinity?

Those who question the trinity imply either that they do not , and/or have not, any concept in mind concerning this idea,... and/or they already assume that they all too well know and understand the position held by that person to whom they poise their question.

I find that the idea of Trinity is multi-faceted, that there is a microtrinity and macrotrinity perspective. In the micro-perspective the Trinity is metaphysical and a spiritual reality, but in the larger view, the Trinity, for me, is personal and concrete.

In this view, what I refer to as the macrotrinity, I see God, the Father, as the Old Testament Word, for in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God, right?
In the Nerw testament I also see the Word as God, the Son. With the OT in my left hand, and on the right hand of God, the Father, I hold the NT. Between them, I myself am filled with the Spirit which completes the triade of this most clear and undebatable reality of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

But this is just me, guys... to each their own....