What would you do if your kid did this?

[Rubia Warren]

What would you do if you had a son who was 6 years old, and was hyper-sensitive about everything, and one day threw himself down on the floor and screamed, cried, kicked the floor, kicked the walls, kicked YOU, said he was going to bite you in your sleep, and kept this fit going for almost 2 hours? What if you threw him in his room and he kept coming out with his fit, and kept the fit going until he finally just passed out from exhaustion?

I saw this the other day, and I was amazed. I will hold my comments until a bit later, I wanted to throw this out and see what you guys think.

[Xmansmommy]

Can you spell b e l t? :lol:

[$cirisme]

Drive up to the nearest field and make him run around for a couple hours till he passes out? :shifty:

[Rubia Warren]

Today @ 03:13 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=290846#post290846)
Xmansmommy:

Can you spell b e l t? :lol:
:lol:
That's the weird thing...... this kid got hit with a belt every time he opened his door to come out, he got a belt spanking, and he still kept doing it, and kept getting his spanking! It was like he didn't care about anything, no matter what his parents did.
I felt bad for his parents.... and they are good friends of mine, and they were trying to act as normal as possible, but I just had to leave- it was too wild for me, and my friend was embarrassed. But I was like, DANG-EE.

[Rubia Warren]

Today @ 03:26 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=290881#post290881)
cirisme:

Drive up to the nearest field and make him run around for a couple hours till he passes out? :shifty:



:lol:

[geebob]

it's too hard to say with just a glimpse like that.

corporal punishment should only be used for willful disobedience where the child knows that he is doing something wrong.

If they were inconsistent with the discipline, then it's more likely just to drive the kid nuts.

And it has to balenced with affection. The kid has to know that he's not just there to be smacked for doing something wrong. He has to have his value reinforced every day.

And then again, maybe it's not the parents at all and the kid is just going through a weird phase.

[bar Jonah]

Like XMM, I'm quite a proponent of the belt, as well as other non-corporal punishments, of course. But in this case, honestly, a doctor may be in order.

[EdJones]

Can you spell r-o-d or yardstick? :nc:

Proverbs 20:30
The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.


Proverbs 29:15
The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

Proverbs 13:24
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Proverbs 19:18
Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

[Leroy]

IMO, I think children at this age are trying the set the parameters of the relationship between themselves and the parents, some children are more stubborn and bull headed then others. I think that using corporal punishment, along with standing very strongly on the points that the parents deem to be unbendable, will show this child that his parents have strength, and authority. All children try this, and most children don't have the stamina to hold out for very long, on the other hand some children seem to be able to almost outlast Gandhi. Anyway the length of time varies, this will be learned if the parents hold steadfast to their principles.
It seems that I'm still that way in my relationship with God.

Caution! This is just my opinion,

Leroy

[Trout]

I must say IMO that at the tender age of 6, the adult must win this battle of wills. However caution must be used in regards to corporal punishment, it's easy for young parents to resort to it's use too quickly. But do not give in to the child's behavior, as this will set the tone for the rest of the relationship.

And by all means, seek good and Godly counsil.

[Patroclus]

/ot Your avatar is creepy

[robert65]

duct tape is quite effective........at least thats what I heard... :whistle:

[Xmansmommy]

:lmbo:

[Rubia Warren]

Today @ 09:08 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=292172#post292172)
Patroclus:

/ot Your avatar is creepy
Whose?

[Queen]

:doh: Belt? Rod? Yardstick? :shocked:

I hope you are all joking.

My sis has four girls and they got such a fit as well. My sis ignored it. It was no fun. They do this to get attention....ignoring it the first time they do this works like a charm. But you have to ignore them. It is exhausting the first time, because they have a long breath... :wink: but that is the trick. Only give attention when they act normal.

Hyper sensitivity is a problem.......the child needs help and not with beating!

But spanking? OMG, that never works. Why not? Using these things on a child is abuse! We are talking about a six year old child. SIX!!

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[geebob]

But spanking? OMG, that never works. Why not? Using these things on a child is abuse! We are talking about a six year old child. SIX!!

nonsense. This is another one of the chronocentric notions where we in the 20th century think we are superior to all humans in the past

pain is real and communicates like nothing else can for a child. And that pain is dispensed does not not necessarily eclipse the love that is given. It can do so and the essence of good parenting isn't just spanking a kid.

OMG, that never works.

parents who don't use corporal punishment properly find that it doesn't work very well. But why should parents who use it properly and with discretion be judged on account of that? That's just foolishness.

But if it never works, I have no clue why there are so many well behaved teens that have been spanked as children and who do not resent their parents for doing so. I was spanked and I don't resent my parents. I know that they only did so because I deserved it. If I bit my brother and to make him cry, I deserved to feel pain. Did punishment communicate to me that I'm worthless? no way. It reinforced very well what I knew in my heart, that what I did was a bad thing. And my parents didn't treat me like a jerk after I was spanked. they'd hold me in their lap afterwords and reassured me that they still loved me.

We are talking about a six year old child. SIX!!

would you think that it would be better to spank teenagers? now that would be foolish. The older a child gets, the better his reasoning becomes and the less physical punishment and love has to be. Yes both have to be physical at a young age. babies are held and kissed and caressed. They wouldn't understand it if the parents just came into the room to say something like "son, I'm proud of you and love you much." And as soon as they are old enough to know that they are being consiously defiant, they are old enough to be communicated the wrongness of that through pain.


What really scares me is the folks who are in power who think they know what's best for children and would take them away if a parent if they were spanking their children. that would make sense if the abuse was real, but it is soooo rediculously far from the truth as evidenced by the multitude of excellent parent child relationships, relatiionships that are clearly understood as lacking in homes where real abuse takes place.

That's the real abuse. I understand there are some European countries like that. Quite frankly, the real abusers are those governments who would punish and take children away from good parents.


The empirical data just doesn't give any indication that corporal punishment properly used is damaging. And there is no reason that the dispensation of physical pain is absolutely wrong no matter what or that it should be lacking in any loving relationship.

[bar Jonah]

Queen:
:doh: Belt? Rod? Yardstick? :shocked:

I hope you are all joking.

My sis has four girls and they got such a fit as well. My sis ignored it. It was no fun. They do this to get attention....ignoring it the first time they do this works like a charm. But you have to ignore them. It is exhausting the first time, because they have a long breath... :wink: but that is the trick. Only give attention when they act normal.

Hyper sensitivity is a problem.......the child needs help and not with beating!

But spanking? OMG, that never works. Why not? Using these things on a child is abuse! We are talking about a six year old child. SIX!!

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen
Never works? I'm sorry, Queen, but that's just not true. It worked on me, and many of my friends, and many people here at TW. And that huge testimony speaks for itself.

On the other hand, I have a number of friends who refuse to spank their children. They use time-outs and "ignoring" the child when they throw tantrums, etc..... and they are all, without exception, now having serious problems with those children, including one friend whose daughter not long ago kicked her in the ribs so hard she broke a rib. She's been on drugs, already had an abortion at 15, wants to run away and live with her boyfriend, steals from her parents... My friend says, "Well, but Maryland won't let me spank my children!"

[EdJones]

90% of our prison population were never "spanked".

[bar Jonah]

Ed, care to back that up with attribution?

[EdJones]

With what? I am in prisons all the time.

















ATTRIBU'TION, n. The act of attributing, or the quality ascribed; commendation.

[bar Jonah]

I'm just asking for more than your word, Ed. Anyone can claim something like that. If you can't back it up, it's worthless, and even a proponent of spanking like myself should through it out

[geebob]

I would assume though that a lot of them are physically abused, (something clearly different then spanking).

[Xmansmommy]

True dat geebob!

[Rubia Warren]

Didn't Bob Enyart used to quote some kind of statistic of the prison population who were not spanked?
Oh no... maybe that was Bill O'Reilly who used to quote some statistic showing that the majrity in prison were physically abused as children (I would have to guess that that does not include spanking, as there's an effective way to spakn and then there is just abuse.)

[EdJones]

They know no relationship between correction and pain thus they think they can have something for nothing, and take it, wether it is a live, stealing or rape so on and so on.

[bar Jonah]

EdJones:
They know no relationship between correction and pain thus they think they can have something for nothing, and take it, wether it is a live, stealing or rape so on and so on.
Opinion. Anecdotal. Irrelevant.

[EdJones]

First hand experience dealing one on one with the "in population" for 22 years.
Smoke on that for 3 days bub.

[bar Jonah]

No thanks, I don't smoke.

Minimal, anecdotal, opinionated "evidence" is worthless, Ed. I agree with your conclusion. But your backing is nonexistent. I was asking for statistics with a source.

You're telling us you performed a formal survey of the population, measuring the margin of error, etc., arriving at your 90% figure?

[EdJones]

Today @ 06:56 PM
RightIdea:

I'm just asking for more than your word, Ed. Anyone can claim something like that. If you can't back it up, it's worthless, and even a proponent of spanking like myself should through it out


You asked, I answered, take it or leave it - it's a free world.







("spanking" is biblical)

[geebob]

They know no relationship between correction and pain thus they think they can have something for nothing, and take it, wether it is a live, stealing or rape so on and so on.

Yeah, physical abuse in childhood or spanking inconsistently dispensed (like whenever the parent was in a bad mood) will do that to a child.

[bar Jonah]

Exactly, Gee.

Ed, I want to believe your 90%. Heck, I'm on your side! All I'm saying is that you're doing yourself, me and everyone else no service by spouting off made-up figures without any real backing or accountability.

[Queen]

???????????????????????????????

Well, I disagree. Corporal punishment.....tttsssskkkk

I never got spanked.....ever, and I am quite normal and healthy....ahem.....No really I never did anything wrong. I was brought up with a sixties attitude, a free spirit so to speak....and I was such a sweet kid, never in jail and I never stole anything, hurt animals or insects or whatever...

:huh:

so?

LOLAS,
Queen

[NSMinistries]

Today @ 03:30 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=294978#post294978)
Queen:

???????????????????????????????

Well, I disagree. Corporal punishment.....tttsssskkkk

I never got spanked.....ever, and I am quite normal and healthy....ahem.....No really I never did anything wrong. I was brought up with a sixties attitude, a free spirit so to speak....and I was such a sweet kid, never in jail and I never stole anything, hurt animals or insects or whatever...

:huh:

so?

LOLAS,
Queen



So thats what went wrong...
:eek: :eek:





















































*crawls under table and hides...*

[Rubia Warren]

:lol:

[Tfbandie]

Greetings everyone. I, personally was never spanked as a child, and I hope to never spank any of my children. But i won't preclude that from being a possibility. Administering Corporal punishment, even coreectly, can be damaging to a child. On the otherhand, It sometimes may prove the best, or only, disclinary action that works. I may seem to be playing to both sides, but I hope i can make points for both sides to think about. The main point is that each child and child-parent relationship is different. That being said, corporal punishment should be a well thought through decision and used primarily as a 'last resort'. As was mentioned taking the child into one's lap and reaffirming your love is the proper way, but some children may learn from this that violence can be a form of affection.

In addressing the original post, as you may guess, i would say there is not enough information. What was child upset about? If it was a tangibile and logical (to the child) thing, then maybe it wasn't just attention.

Alright hope this falls on contemplative ears (or rather eyes)

[bar Jonah]

Queen:
???????????????????????????????

Well, I disagree. Corporal punishment.....tttsssskkkk

I never got spanked.....ever, and I am quite normal and healthy....ahem.....No really I never did anything wrong. I was brought up with a sixties attitude, a free spirit so to speak....and I was such a sweet kid, never in jail and I never stole anything, hurt animals or insects or whatever...

:huh:

so?

LOLAS,
Queen
Queen, please don't be offended, but you've been fairly open here at TW about the problems you've wrestled with in your life, the depression, the relationship problems, the fears and terrible memories you've experienced... Now you tell us that you're completely normal, happy and healthy. Which is it?

[Stephen]

I grew up in a spanking family, and as far as I can tell it hasn't corrupted me too much. Wish they'd stop doing it now that I'm 14 though...
(Joking, Joking)

I never felt it child abuse back in the day. I just knew I learned my lesson. Maybe some people find it child abuse, but if any kid is claiming emotional trauma or child abuse about it, he/she is just mimicking what he's heard others say. I highly highly highly doubt it really has any traumatic affect, other than not being able to sit down for the rest of the night
:grin:

Why is it that you can have a pro choice to kill an unborn but conceived baby, but should have no right to spank a child. What happened to the politically correct view being pro choice?

[EdJones]

Truth is most parents aren't fit to raise a dog.

[Socrates]

Today @ 07:22 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=294964#post294964)
RightIdea:

Ed, I want to believe your 90%. Heck, I'm on your side! All I'm saying is that you're doing yourself, me and everyone else no service by spouting off made-up figures without any real backing or accountability.

Come on Ed, I agree with spanking too, but must support RI in asking for documentation. Otherwise how can WE use this as an argument?

[EdJones]

I could care less with what you use or agree about Socrates, Gods word teaches it and that settles it.

I gave my documentation, it was from the horses mouth.

[robert65]

:nc: Duct tape...I'm telling you....No impact, highly effective

[Xmansmommy]

robert....Pearls for you! :thumb: :thumb: ...:rofl:

[Socrates]

Today @ 12:13 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=295586#post295586)
EdJones:

I could care less with what you use or agree about Socrates, Gods word teaches it and that settles it.

For goodness' sake, don't be so paranoid :noid: I know perfectly well God's Word teaches corporal punishment, and that settles it for me too.

I gave my documentation, it was from the horses mouth.

Right, so if Right Idea or I want to use your statistic, we should just say, "Ed told us so"?

[Warcraft3]

Socrates:
Right, so if Right Idea or I want to use your statistic, we should just say, "Ed told us so"?

LOL :lol:

I got a kick out of that one.



Russ

[robert65]

Xmansmommy:

robert....Pearls for you! :thumb: :thumb: ...:rofl:

Thank you. I don't really use duct tape on my kids. I do envision it though when they get really annoying.:wink:

[Rubia Warren]

Hm, I will have to remember that one.
My fantasy daydream in those frustrating moments is of picking one up and watch them soar through the air, kinda like a football. oh! And you know how the football has that spin when it's thrown? Yeah. That's what I'm talkin about.

[robert65]

r00bz:

Hm, I will have to remember that one.
My fantasy daydream in those frustrating moments is of picking one up and watch them soar through the air, kinda like a football. oh! And you know how the football has that spin when it's thrown? Yeah. That's what I'm talkin about.

Just don't spike the little darlings and do a victory dance..... That may border on abuse.

[Queen]

:lmbo:

OMG you guys....you crack me up!!!! http://www.websmileys.com/sm/comp/comp11.gif

Bill, of course I am not in the best mental condition, but that has nothing to do with my upbringing....that is something else..... :tongue: I am crazy! I never denied that...okay I said I was normal....but hey.....who really is... :wink:


NSMinistries,

You can hide all you want...I am going to get ya!!! And this is what I will do with you...





























:kiss:

Ouch, don't make me laugh.......my throat, I can hardly speak!!!http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/666.gif

:lol:

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[NSMinistries]

:lol:

[bar Jonah]

Queen:
NSMinistries,

You can hide all you want...I am going to get ya!!! And this is what I will do with you...

:kiss:

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen
What am I? Chopped livah? :tongue:

[mossrose]

:offtopic: Stephen, does Mommy know you have given her day-glo hair and made her your pet?? :shocked:

[geebob]

I never got spanked.....ever, and I am quite normal and healthy....ahem.....No really I never did anything wrong.

but you're an individual. some children don't need spanking. Again, the issue is using corporal punishment wisely, and the individuality of peoples implies that a wise usage may indicate no usage.

[elysian]

Sounds like this kid needs to see a doctor. He could have something wrong with his brain or a chemical imbalance that makes him behave this way.

Spanking can be a valid punishment but if it's being done and it isn't changing the undesirable behaviors you need to reevaluate your approach. I would say a kid that doesn't respond to a sturdy swat should be evaluated by a doctor to rule out mental illness, brain abnormalities or chemical imbalances.

On the bright side, chemical imbalances can be corrected.

[Esther]

Ed,

Please don't be defensive. I, too, would like to know a statistic. It's fine for people who know you in person - and with whom you have credibility - to hear your experiences but that doesn't help those of us who don't know you. What can we say in our discussions with others who also don't know you? I agree with you and don't doubt what you're saying. What RI and Socrates, who also agree with you, are asking for is something objective and specific. They know what the Bible says. The problem is that many people we encounter don't give a rip what the Bible says, hence the need for statistics.

Tfbandie:

Administering Corporal punishment, even coreectly, can be damaging to a child.

There is no proof of that because it is simply not true. Corporal punishment administered correctly is not damaging. If it is administered correctly, the child can move forward lesson learned and the relationship with the parent(s) involved intact, if not stronger.

On the otherhand, It sometimes may prove the best, or only, disclinary action that works. I may seem to be playing to both sides, but I hope i can make points for both sides to think about. The main point is that each child and child-parent relationship is different.

I would agree with you that each relationship is different but the fact of the matter is that, regardless of relational differences, wrong is wrong and, for best results, needs to be dealt with "swiftly and decisively", to quote James Dobson. It's the method that may vary.

That being said, corporal punishment should be a well thought through decision and used primarily as a 'last resort'.

Yes, it should be well thought through before it becomes necessary to use it but, no, it should not be used as a last resort. With appendicitis, pain is a very good thing. Without that pain, we wouldn't know something was wrong and it would eventually kill us.

Spanking a child before you get angry enough to kill them is preferable to saving it as a last resort. The child also does not get the idea that pushing your buttons to a certain point is okay. You have let them know without question that their behavior is unacceptable and you won't tolerate it. At our house a spank-worthy offense is spankable after a warning if they didn't already know better and after the offense if they've been told before, not after the 53rd time when we've "had it" and are more likely to go overboard. This has greatly reduced the occurance of spank-worthy behavior.

Imo, we should have a basic plan in mind for how we will deal with our children when they misbehave before we're presented with the situation - or, in certain unfortunate and usually public instances, immediately following the situation when anger has subsided. Not that I have experienced that.

As was mentioned taking the child into one's lap and reaffirming your love is the proper way, but some children may learn from this that violence can be a form of affection.

Children aren't going to learn violence as a form of affection from appropriate discipline. First of all, appropriate spanking is not something that happens for no apparent reason. The child knows he is in the wrong. Second, if they weren't in the wrong, they would most likely be on the receiving end of healthy affection and positive interaction in general.


Queen,

If your sister can raise four children without spanking and without repeating herself 20 times and stooping to manipulating (or being manipulated), to get her kids to obey, more power to her!

r00bz,

I agree that there's not enough info. If a kid is that over the top all the time, the parents are being inconsistent with him (her?) when people aren't watching, they're being consistent but they're consistently wrong, or he needs to see a dr. There's no shame in seeing a dr for behavior problems. Parents aren't always to blame.

[Stephen]

Stephen, does Mommy know you have given her day-glo hair and made her your pet??


Maybe...

[Rubia Warren]

Posted by Esther:

I agree that there's not enough info. If a kid is that over the top all the time, the parents are being inconsistent with him (her?) when people aren't watching, they're being consistent but they're consistently wrong, or he needs to see a dr. There's no shame in seeing a dr for behavior problems. Parents aren't always to blame.
I am not sure if he's like this all the time, you guys. His mom is a friend of mine but I don't see her THAT often. I have not heard of him being like that and I was surprised when I saw him get like that. He's usually a quiet, laid back type of kid.
Onething that stuck out to me though.... his mom wanted his dad after a while to let him out of the room, that he had been in there long enough, and his dad said no, he had to stay in there until the morning (it was already like 7:30 or 8 pm) because he had told him that was what was going to happen, and the kid kept calling for his mom going, "Mommy, I'm sorry..... I won't do it again.......I'll be good now........ can I get out?" and when his dad would make him get back in there, he'd say, "I want my mom!!" which kinda led me to suspect that my friend is inconsistent with the boy, which is why he kept tryin to make her feel sorry for him and let him out.

[Esther]

That'd definitely do it, r00bz. Sounds like a control issue to me.

[bar Jonah]

Oh boy... yes, inconsistency can definitely be a discipline killer.

[Tfbandie]

All forms of punishment are maniupulation. And Punishment(physical or not) as a whole is often shown to be non-effective over long periods of time (From behavioral theorists such as C.S Weinstein, A.J. Migano, or W. Jenson) The positive effects are shown to be temporary and punishment can lead to aggression and/or causes student to avoid setting in which it is used.

To take a quote from educational psychologist Robert E Slavin, "Even behavioral learning theorists who do support the use of punishment agree it should be resorted to only when reinforcers for apporpriate behavior has been tried and has failed;that when punishment is neccesary it should take the mildest possible form and punishment should always be used as part of a careful plan

Behavior modification by reinforcers stresses the importance of recognizing kids good behavior and not being focused on bad behavior. Of course detrimental behaviors can not be ignored.

Whatever form punishment/reinforcement takes, as most of us agree (with researchers) that consistancy is the key. Having a set plan of specific behaviors to either promote or eliminate and having specific ways of attaining those goals is best for parents and kids. By reading and knowing how different theories are supposed to work, only then can you apply it correctly and know whether it is working.

[geebob]

To take a quote from educational psychologist Robert E Slavin, "Even behavioral learning theorists who do support the use of punishment agree it should be resorted to only when reinforcers for apporpriate behavior has been tried and has failed;that when punishment is neccesary it should take the mildest possible form and punishment should always be used as part of a careful plan

but of course. punishment alone is a recipe for disaster.

as for this "mildest form" buisness, I would hope he meant, for mild like a paddle spanking is in the west compared to real child abuse.

Actually, I would disagree with this notion of a "last resort". A child who is being willfully defiant of good authority should be punished. It should not be tolerated.

By reading and knowing how different theories are supposed to work, only then can you apply it correctly and know whether it is working.

and Dr. Spock's son commited suicide (I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure about that). I think the psycologist would be stepping out of his bounds here in what he expects of parents. Parents only need a successful theory. They don't need to compare while keeping up with the latest fads in psycology. I will grant that this may increase chances for success, but then again, I would take a dim view if comparing theories meant sticking to the social sciences. Humans are animals of meaning and science is not yet deep enough to establish deep and meaningful relationships. For that, we trust in the guidance of God.

[Tfbandie]

Consistency is stressed by everyone, so while you may know multiple theories, choosing one and sticking with it is always the best option. However, if it proves to fail, then making a switch to a different option based on your knowledge of your child and the different theories, you can better assess a change. but of course, All of this can be avoided by having perfect, or near perfect kids. :smile: