Suffer not a witch to live?

[UK_Apologist]

Ok guys here's a verse that many witches have a problem with - Exodus 22:18 suffer not a witch to live (KJV).

Would just like to get some thoughts on what we can say to modern witches with regards to this.

My thoughts? It's difficult to define who was the "witch" the writer of exodus had in mind here so we can't really equate it with modern witches. Also, the OT was done away with in Christ. Sadly though, in history some crazed individuals have still used this verse to kill witches.

Any feedback on this appreciated.

[Manwë Súlimo]

Ok guys here's a verse that many witches have a problem with - Exodus 22:18 suffer not a witch to live (KJV).

Would just like to get some thoughts on what we can say to modern witches with regards to this.

My thoughts? It's difficult to define who was the "witch" the writer of exodus had in mind here so we can't really equate it with modern witches. Also, the OT was done away with in Christ. Sadly though, in history some crazed individuals have still used this verse to kill witches.

Any feedback on this appreciated.

1) This is an edict to ancient Israel, not to all, and ancient Israel no longer exists under the old covenant.

2) Witches called upon power from spirits other than God, and this is a big no-no. Wages of sin is death, after all.

3) Besides, witches were often approached to bring curses and whatnot, and this could not be tolerated, especially in a society where survival was anything but guaranteed even under the best circumstances.

[Littlejoe]

Newer translations that are on par with KJV...NASB, and ESV, translate it as sorceress instead of witch. I''m not sure the distinction makes much difference in your OP, but since we aren't Jews, I feel the modern church should look to the NT to see how we should handle it. I don't see anywhere in the NT where the apostles dealing with sorcerers, oracles etc. ever condemned them to death.

LJ

[Soyeong]

Christ didn't do away with the OT; He fulfilled it.

This is a civil law given to a Jewish nation in part to keep them from being influenced by the pagan practices of neighboring nations. Because we belong to a different nation, this law was not given for us to follow, however, that does not mean we should dismiss these sorts or witches as being harmless.

[Durthorin]

There is some discussion that the original greek text the word translated as Witch was poisoner.. that not withstanding Christians object to Pagans.. no matter what our name. Its a part of your faith, we accept that..as long as you also accept that in a nation ruled by secular law, you do not have the right to kill people for believing differently

[rogue06]

There is some discussion that the original greek text the word translated as Witch was poisoner.. that not withstanding Christians object to Pagans.. no matter what our name. Its a part of your faith, we accept that..as long as you also accept that in a nation ruled by secular law, you do not have the right to kill people for believing differently
That's interesting. IIRC during the Middle Ages the word for witch and poisoner were synonymous in much of France because you got both love potions and "inheritance powder" from them.

[MooseOnTheLoose]

...as long as you also accept that in a nation ruled by secular law, you do not have the right to kill people for believing differently

Well I'd hate to see a Methodist kill a Baptist, or a Catholic kill a Presbyterian, although there is certainly a good case for creationists stoning theistic evolutionists... :grin:

[Durthorin]

Well, as I pointed out to some pagan friends as much as Wiccans/Witches point out the persecution of other faiths by Christians, you guys are far more vicious and brutal to each other.. historically speaking...

[Durthorin]

Just for info:



In the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. Clearly "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrases in today's English usage for this verse.

The Good News Bible uses the term "magic." This is also a poor selection because that term has been used to refer to:
stage magic, sleight of hand, magic tricks.
ceremonial magic used to harm other persons.
ceremonial magic used to heal other persons.

The King James Version and Revised English Bible use the term "witch." In North America, the term normally refers to Wiccans -- the followers of the Wiccan religion. According to the Scofield Reference Bible this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was written in the year 1491 BCE. This is some 650 years before the origin of the Celtic people circa 850 BCE from whom some elements of Wicca were taken. So Exodus 22:18 can hardly be referring to Wiccans.

[headheart]

There is some discussion that the original greek text the word translated as Witch was poisoner.. that not withstanding Christians object to Pagans.. no matter what our name. Its a part of your faith, we accept that..as long as you also accept that in a nation ruled by secular law, you do not have the right to kill people for believing differently

Durthorin,

*Sorcerors... in Greek - 'pharmakos'

'Pharmakos does not only mean scapegoat, It is a synonym for pharmakeus, a word often repeated by Plato, meaning 'wizard', 'magician', even 'poisoner'.

In Plato's dialogues, Socrates is often depicted and termed as a pharmakeus.

Socrates is considered as one who knows how to perform magic with words, and notably, not with written letters.

His words act as a pharmakon (as a remedy, or allegedly as a poison as far as the Athenian authority were concerned) and change, cure the soul of the listener.'

From: Wikipedia - Pharmakos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmakos) It seems that G_d is going to judge those who follow their own ways.



'For without are dogs, and *sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and **idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.'
Revelation 22:15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+22%3A15)

Add to this an earlier reference in Revelation:


'But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.'


From what I have learned (in our time), the word witch = medium.


Yet!!!

The deal though is that believers are not to judge any but themselves and their own. Believers are to walk in wisdom to those who are without, and to show gentleness and respect, because many of us used to run with the same crowd, doing exactly the same things, in ignorance and rebellion.

This is a quote from another discussion I had, when I was still trying to figure this out:


In Traditional Witchcraft, 'Spirits & Elements may be called to protect area, usually a spirit or Ancestor'. Wiccan Religion, 'worships, horned god and his consort, reign over the universe, may follow a pantheon, or single gods/goddesses'

My only conclusion is that either witches or other, engaged in Traditional Witchcraft or the Wiccan Religion, may or may not be communing with demons, or worshipping demons; the former being less likely to worship, and the latter being more likely to worship demons. (thinking of course that they are either spirits or elements, or ancestors in the former, and thinking they are the horned god and his consort, a pantheon, or single gods/goddesses', in the latter.)

Essentially one cannot make a general rule regarding this for some engaged in Traditional Witchcraft do not, and some do, and the same applies to those engaged in the Wiccan Religion. It is however a very grey bordering on dark zone, and one where one might be wiser not to engage in the practice of Traditional Witchcraft or that of the Wiccan Religion.

Certainly one should.......

Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:22 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Thessalonians+5%3A22)

From: 21st Century Witchcraft (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=125107)


Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer.

[Catholicity]

to moose on the loose, you need to learn to shut your mouth a bit, why? because many TE's are Christians quite Frankly. I'll be close friend's with an open minded witch over a closed minded yec like you anyday. Name calling judgement casting like what you do is very un Christ like. we are not against the Bible we belive the 'yom' in genesis, simply isn't literal, much how you do not take "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood" literally. so be quiet. however the law applied to the Nation of Israel as it was moving into the Holy land for Purity purposes amongst the Nations and itself

[rogue06]

to moose on the loose, you need to learn to shut your mouth a bit, why? because many TE's are Christians quite Frankly. I'll be close friend's with an open minded witch over a closed minded yec like you anyday. Name calling judgement casting like what you do is very un Christ like. we are not against the Bible we belive the 'yom' in genesis, simply isn't literal, much how you do not take "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood" literally. so be quiet. however the law applied to the Nation of Israel as it was moving into the Holy land for Purity purposes amongst the Nations and itself
Welcome to Tweb Catholicity

Moose is essentially harmless. He likes to yank the occasional chain to see if he can provoke a reaction.

[Catholicity]

hehe thanks rogue :lol:

[headheart]

Welcome to the Holy Land.

[Durthorin]

I note the irony.....

[headheart]

.........however the law applied to the Nation of Israel as it was moving into the Holy land for Purity purposes amongst the Nations and itself

Matthem 5:17-20 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=mat&chapter=5#n18)
Hebrews 3: 15-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+3&version=MSG)
Deuteronomy 5:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%205&version=KJV)

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

[MooseOnTheLoose]

Cathlocity26:
to moose on the loose, you need to learn to shut your mouth a bit, why? because many TE's are Christians quite Frankly. I'll be close friend's with an open minded witch over a closed minded yec like you anyday. Name calling judgement casting like what you do is very un Christ like. we are not against the Bible we belive the 'yom' in genesis, simply isn't literal, much how you do not take "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood" literally. so be quiet. however the law applied to the Nation of Israel as it was moving into the Holy land for Purity purposes amongst the Nations and itself

Eh? When the heck did I ever become a YEC? Have I turned into anything else without noticing? Brad Pitt perhaps?

rogue06:
Moose is essentially harmless. He likes to yank the occasional chain to see if he can provoke a reaction.

rogue is essentially faithless, he likes to give the impression he knows everything despite his POV having no scientific or Scriptural mandate.

Anyway, on the subject of witches. The KJV Bible's approach is understandable. King James himself had a mortal fear of witches and believed they were plotting against his life. While he was in Scotland, reigning as James VI, the situation was exacerbated by the case of Agnes Sampson and the North Berwick witches, who were accused of raising a storm to sink the King's ship on his return from Denmark with his new bride. This fear continued when he took over the English throne as James I and resulted in a rather unpleasant purge, which he later came to regret. His own book "Demonologie" gives an insight into his anti-witchcraft views at the time.

[rogue06]

rogue is essentially faithless, he likes to give the impression he knows everything despite his POV having no scientific or Scriptural mandate.
Aw moosie and here I didn't think you cared.

[FreezBee]

Welcome to Tweb Catholicity

Moose is essentially harmless. He likes to yank the occasional chain to see if he can provoke a reaction.

And don't forget that he's quite a loser and easily scared by fruit.

- FreezBee

[MooseOnTheLoose]

Aw moosie and here I didn't think you cared.

My heart's a swinging brick.

And don't forget that he's quite a loser and easily scared by fruit.

Fruit???? :eek:

[UK_Apologist]

Hey guys, just to say thanks for the thoughts on this!

[headheart]

Anyone for a seance?

[FreezBee]

Anyone for a seance?

Wouldn't we need to catch a witch to precede the seance then?

- FreezBee

[Darth Ovious]

Just for info:

In the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. Clearly "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrases in today's English usage for this verse.

The Good News Bible uses the term "magic." This is also a poor selection because that term has been used to refer to:
stage magic, sleight of hand, magic tricks.
ceremonial magic used to harm other persons.
ceremonial magic used to heal other persons.

The King James Version and Revised English Bible use the term "witch." In North America, the term normally refers to Wiccans -- the followers of the Wiccan religion. According to the Scofield Reference Bible this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was written in the year 1491 BCE. This is some 650 years before the origin of the Celtic people circa 850 BCE from whom some elements of Wicca were taken. So Exodus 22:18 can hardly be referring to Wiccans.

If what you say is true then you've got a point. This wouldn't refer to Wiccans since they only use magic for healing purposes. On the other hand with regards to Satanists :grin:

[headheart]

Wouldn't we need to catch a witch to precede the seance then?

- FreezBee

The bearings on my stick are seized, so that rules out any moonlight searching. I have only ever met two witches, who said, 'I am a witch', without which I would not have know which witch is which. In that sense, we are all witches and not witches, unless there is a way of telling which witch, is which. FreezBee? Witches don't do dat seance stuff, 'cept maybe on telebishion..huh? I was thinking of maybe catching a medium, but they are always hybernating in a trance state...so maybe we can just catch us a live one... a christian..seeing as it is summer there is zero chance of catchin a cold, if one has had one's shots, so catching a christian should be a cinch, or maybe not. Huh?

mmm. Does one really need a witch to start a seance?

ejs.

[Beavis]

Where mista turkey?

No one c pagans crash 2 planes into bulding or tri to blw up timez squeer, mad men puritan killed pour natural healers, herbs, natural kures, bad puratin, kill innocent peepole, butt, yahwayy lik 2 kill & burne girlz, Y yaaaway not beet chemosh?

[headheart]

Gimmewatchasmokinbeavis!

[FreezBee]

The bearings on my stick are seized, so that rules out any moonlight searching. I have only ever met two witches, who said, 'I am a witch', without which I would not have know which witch is which. In that sense, we are all witches and not witches, unless there is a way of telling which witch, is which. FreezBee? Witches don't do dat seance stuff, 'cept maybe on telebishion..huh? I was thinking of maybe catching a medium, but they are always hybernating in a trance state...so maybe we can just catch us a live one... a christian..seeing as it is summer there is zero chance of catchin a cold, if one has had one's shots, so catching a christian should be a cinch, or maybe not. Huh?

mmm. Does one really need a witch to start a seance?

ejs.

Of course we do. But how do we catch a witch? Seeing that it isn't summer anymore (on the northern hemisphere, that is), we can't catch one running around in the woods. Except, perhaps, when the mistletoe blooms! When does it do that?

- FreezBee

[headheart]

Drude, I guess you being the master of all things mysterious and psychedelic, should unwind the tale of the Mistletoe (http://wyldwytchcraft.blogspot.com/2009/11/mistletoe-magic.html) :lol:

[FreezBee]

Drude, I guess you being the master of all things mysterious and psychedelic, should unwind the tale of the Mistletoe (http://wyldwytchcraft.blogspot.com/2009/11/mistletoe-magic.html) :lol:

An interesting link; thanks!

- FreezBee

[headheart]

88661

No problem, DrudeBee! (http://revelation-v2.blogspot.com/2010/10/encyclopedia-of-medieval-world-2-volume.html) < the medieval world ...

headheart. :lol: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjmhtN7UEEo&p=0988D81F7E514A0E&index=9&playnext=9) < all the sleepless dreamers ...

[rogue06]

Of course we do. But how do we catch a witch? Seeing that it isn't summer anymore (on the northern hemisphere, that is), we can't catch one running around in the woods. Except, perhaps, when the mistletoe blooms! When does it do that?

- FreezBee
According to the lore one way to spot a witch is when they travel in pairs. Supposedly they tend to get in argument about what time it is and if they both have time pieces they soon start comparing them and debating their ability to keep proper time. I know, I know. Sounds pretty silly. But I think we've all heard about the question, if two witches were watching two watches, which witch would... watch... OK. I'm leaving now.

:outtie:

[headheart]

....they travel in pairs.

88743

Very tasty, very tasty indeed.

[FreezBee]

88743

Very tasty, very tasty indeed.

It's so they can put each other under peer pressure.

[headheart]

88748



In later scenes in the first folio the witches are called "weyard," but never "weird." The modern appellation "weird sisters" is thus a modern concoction.

Urmson, J. O. "Tate's 'Wayward Sisters'." Music & Letters 62.2 (1981): 245.

Shakespeare's creation of the Three Witches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1lHYvxieB8&feature=&p=27735A72C57E41BE&index=0&playnext=1) may also have been influenced by an anti-witchcraft law passed by King James nine years previous, a law that would stay untouched for over 130 years.

Tolman, Albert H. (1896). "Notes on Macbeth". Publications of the Modern Language Association 11 (2): 200–219.

From: 'Origins' - W.O.E. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Witches)




Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer