Have you ever spoken in tongues?

[Gavin]

Care to share any experiences you have had with this gift from the Holy Spirit?

[Sozo]

I spoke in tongues for about nine years, on pretty much a daily basis, when I was involved with a large charasmatic congregation in Kansas city.

[abarnhar]

Never spoken in tongues... but I have loved.

[Rubia Warren]

I have a couple of times.

[Popeye]

Yes. I've spoken French, Haitian Creole, Spanish, Korean... But I'm sure that's not what you meant. The only experience I've had with speaking in tounges was at a church in Clarksville, TN where it sounded like Spanish. No interpreters either.

[Freak]

No. I have not. But have experienced this often: "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."

[John Reece]

Have you ever spoken in tongues?
Yes.

Care to share any experiences you have had with this gift from the Holy Spirit?
Maybe later. It's a long story, and I'd need to do some thinking about how to abbreviate it.

[Sozo]

03-02-2003 @ 11:04 AM
John Reece:

It's a long story, and I'd need to do some thinking about how to abbreviate it.

I think it is Tngs ?

[John Reece]

I think it is Tngs ?
:smile:

The story, Sozo. The story.

(Edited to correct the probably-wrong guess that Sozo's real name is Paul)

[Jin-Roh]

I have spoken in tounges.

I have also operated in prophecy on one occasion. That was a very humbling experience. It is not something I feel should be done as liberally as many other people do.

[Gavin]

I think it is Tngs ?
Sozo's sense of humor certainly requires a certain taste.:lol:

Please feel free to share the stories behind these occurences, all.

[Sozo]

03-02-2003 @ 10:24 PM
Gavin:


Sozo's sense of humor certainly requires a certain taste.:lol:

Please feel free to share the stories behind these occurences, all.

You do know that my first post in this thread was a serious one?

(I guess I cry wolf so often, it's hard to take me seriously :argh: )

[Gavin]

You do know that my first post in this thread was a serious one?

(I guess I cry wolf so often, it's hard to take me seriously )
Oh no, I know that. I was referring to the Tngs abbreviation post.

Actually, it took me a couple of times reading through it to get it! But when I did I laughed. It just sounds like a "Sozo (Sheepdog) joke" for some reason.:rofl:

[John Reece]

Care to share any experiences you have had with this gift from the Holy Spirit?
O.K. Here's a much abbreviated version of the story:

My innate hunger to understand things in the broad context of the entirety of the Bible began in 1953, when, as a junior in college I heard for the first time a mention of the phenomenon of speaking in tongues. Someone said there were references to it in the New Testament, so I bought a copy of the RSV NT and began to read it over and over again, seeking to understand how speaking in tongues fits in the context of the whole of it. At the same time, I began looking for people who might know something about the phenomenon in terms of personal experience.

In the early 1950’s, the only such people I could find were Pentecostals.

My curiosity and motivation to experience speaking in tongues diminished over time and eventually disappeared as other things became dominant concerns.

During the latter part of my first year at the Duke University Divinity School (1956-57, which was my second year as a Methodist student-pastor), I lost my wife to an illness for which there was no cure. That devastated me so badly that I could no longer function as a pastor, so I returned to my home turf in Northern Virginia and got a job running a laundry route in Washington, D.C. In the summer of 1962, I received a phone call from a retired army sergeant with whose wife I had directed a summer program (she was in charge of musical activities) in a Methodist Church where I had been assistant pastor between my junior and senior years in college. He said something had happened to him that he wanted to share with me. So I went to see him, and he told me about having gone to a Full Gospel Businessmen’s meeting where he got acquainted with people from an Assembly of God church. When they learned that he was a professional musician whose specialty was the organ, they asked him to come to their church to play in place of their organist who was going on vacation. He went to practice and get familiar with their organ on a Saturday night, but when he arrived, a prayer meeting was in session in the sanctuary, so he got on his knees to join them in prayer. As he did so, he heard a voice within his spirit saying to him, “Have I not covered your sin?” He responded, “Yes, Lord, you covered my sin when you shed your blood for me.” Then he was filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues. For months he had been struggling to quit smoking cigarettes, but had been unable to do so. When he left the prayer meeting, he threw away his cigarettes and never smoked again.

He suggested that I go visit a Pentecostal pastor, and a lay leader in his church, with both of whom I had become friends during the year I served (between graduation from college in 1955 and matriculation at Duke Divinity School in 1956) as pastor of a Methodist Church in the same community in which they were serving a Pentecostal Holiness Church. The lay leader invited me to go with him to a Full Gospel Businessmen’s meeting in a motel in Baltimore. At the meeting, a Baptist pastor provided one-on-one ministry to people who volunteered to sit in chairs facing the congregation. The pastor stood behind the chairs and went from one person to another, placing his hands on their shoulders and telling what God showed him about each of them and praying for them accordingly.

I had the impression that I had witnessed a genuine and rather powerful ministry of the Holy Spirit. Some time later, while running my laundry route, I thought about my predicament of having lost not only my wife but also my ability to function as a pastor. I felt like God had tried me out and had found me unfit for his service. I said to Him, “I speak to you, but I don’t hear anything from you.” I needed to hear him tell me whether or not I was a lost cause as far and He was concerned. I desperately desired to hear whatever he might have to say to me. Then I thought, perhaps if I were to receive ministry from that Baptist pastor I heard in Baltimore (Frank Downing), God might speak to me through him.

That night I received another call from the retired army sergeant, who informed me that Frank Downing would be ministering in a church in Washington DC the next two nights. I showed up the first night and listened to Frank preach an unimpressive sermon, and then responded to an invitation to go to another room in the building to be prayed for by Frank.

There were many chairs in the room, all filled with people sitting and waiting to be ministered to by Pastor Downing. When he got around to putting his hands on my shoulders, he did not speak a word to me nor to God, but I became aware of the presence of the Spirit in me, and aware of words that I did not understand but knew I could speak if I were to open my mouth do so. But I practically ignored all that, because all I wanted was to hear God speak to me. Still having said nothing to or about me, Frank proceeded to minister to a young woman sitting beside me, telling her what God had to say to her regarding a relationship with a boyfriend and some other stuff I don’t remember. Silently within myself I thought, jealously, “She probably wasn’t even asking for it!”

I was so disappointed by not hearing from God, that the sense of the Spirit in me gradually dissipated with each step I took walking out of the building. The next morning, I woke up and said “God, I’m not going to eat another bite nor drink another drop until you speak to me!”

When evening came, I had a very strong aversion to returning to that church. But I remembered John Wesley’s comment saying he went “quite unwillingly” to the prayer meeting on Aldersgate Street where, he said, “I felt my heart strangely warmed.” So I forced myself to go back to that church that evening, where I sat in such a deep, dark depression that I could not imagine it possible that anyone could say anything that would make any difference in me.

The speaker that evening was a female Assembly of God evangelist who, with the concurrence of the pastor, had felt lead of God (I learned later) to call Frank Downing from Baltimore to be there for the last two nights of a 5-night series of meetings. Her name was Hattie Hammond. She came to a point in her sermon when she could no longer talk for laughing. She was trying to make a simple statement, but every time she tried to say it, she’d wind up turning toward the side of the sanctuary, holding her hands high while laughing for joy. Finally she was able to finish what she was trying to say, which was this: “Jesus is the Great Physician, and whatever your need is, he's a specialist in that field. With one hand he takes his surgeon’s knife and removes what has to go, and with his other hand he applies his healing oil.” That was a metaphor for what actually happened in me, which took as long as it took Hattie to say it.

When she started the statement, I was hopelessly engulfed in depression. But by the time she finished it, I was totally free of all symptoms of depression and full of the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace. When the invitation was given to go to the back room for personal ministry, I didn’t know or care why I was going, I just went and took a seat in a chair in the room full of people. When Frank Downing came in, he made a beeline straight to me, knelt down beside me, and without ever having exchanged a word to or about me (I was a total stranger to everyone involved in those meetings), he prayed, “Lord, you showed me this young man’s face in a vision last night, in the watches of the night, and told me you were going to fill him with your Spirit and do a mighty word through him.”

Then he turned to me and said, "Tell the Lord whatever is on your mind.“ So I said, "Lord, I feel like you have tried me out, found me wanting, and have no further use for me." Frank then said, "Now speak, but don't say anything in English.” I was immediately aware of words, none of them English, which I knew I could speak if I decided to, but that seemed like a silly and awkward thing for me to do, so I hesitated. But Frank insisted that I do as he had said, so I began speaking the words and Frank went on to minister to others in the room.

When he had finished with the others, he came back, sat down beside me and began the first conversation I ever had with him. He said I had been praying in tongues, and I said, “Something tells me I made it up.” He said, “I wonder who told you that.” He proceeded to tell me the story of how he had become concerned about a lack of the power of God in his life and ministry, and how he had set himself to seek God for the power of the Holy Spirit. While praying in an upstairs room in his home one day, he suddenly lapsed into saying words that were not English. Surprised, he went downstairs to tell his wife what had happened, and to ask what she thought about it. She said, “That sounds to me like what happened in the book of Acts.” To which he responded, “You went to the same seminary I went to [Southern Baptist, Louisville KY); you know all that ceased when the original Apostles died.” And she said, “Think what you want to, that [cessationism] never did make any sense to me.” So he went back to speaking the words he did not understand, and kept at it until God produced in him a rather powerful ministry of prophecy and healing.

I did not persevere in doing as Frank had done in terms of speaking in tongues. However, in the following weeks and months, the Lord fulfilled the prophecy he had spoken about me to Frank Downing "in the watches of the night". But that's another story...

It was not until much later that praying in tongues became something I did without thinking about it whenever I was praying and at a loss for English words to express all that was in my spirit. The nearest thing to what that’s like (in scripture) is Romans 8:26, except that the words are quite distinct rather than "sighs too deep for words".

[Rubia Warren]

To all of you who have spoken in tongues:
Do the words come up in your head before you have spoken them, or does your mouth just take on a "life of it's own", so to speak?
I have often been curious about other people's experiences, and I have heard from others both things.

[John Reece]

Do the words come up in your head before you have spoken them, or does your mouth just take on a "life of it's own", so to speak?
Neither.

The words originate in the spirit.

The mind does not process the words.

The mouth does not become autonomous

The will chooses whether or not to speak what comes from the Spirit by means of the spirit.

[Gavin]

O.K. Here's a much abbreviated version of the story:

[continued]

Thanks, John. That, combined with La Rubia's testimony about tongues which she sent me privately, have really increased my thirst and encouraged me in my pursuit of God's power and having a spiritual breakthrough.

Right now I am reaching that point of desperation where I feel as you did when you said, "I will not eat or drink until you speak to me." I have actually been fasting on and off for the past week and half or so.

Please pray for me, if you think about it, that whatever God is doing in my life would come to fruition.

Thanks again for sharing. :smile:

Neither.

The words originate in the spirit.

The mind does not process the words.

The mouth does not become autonomous

The will chooses whether or not to speak what comes from the Spirit by means of the spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:14 (NLT)
"For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don't understand what I am saying."

[Rubia Warren]

I'm sorry, John, I only asked that out of curiosity because in your first post, you said that you were aware of words that were not in English.
I have friends who have told me that they were "aware" of the words, but that they came across in their minds and proceeded out of their mouths. I was just curious as to the internal experiences that people have had when speaking in tongues (I am not implying that anyone's were made up at all. I think it is hard to fake, personally).
As for me, I guess thinking back I was kind of aware of words, too, it is hard to describe. I guess I said it wrong when I said "does your mouth take on a life of it's own", because that's really not what happened to me either. I mean, I had to physically speak, but I was not speaking english- oh, I didn't realize how difficult it is to describe!
By the way, your testimony was awesome!

[John Reece]

You are very welcome, Gavin.

I will "think about it" and I wil do it.

La Rubia, Yes, God is awesome - quite beyond my ability to tell what he has done and how he has done it.

Thanks for the kind comments.

[John Reece]

A few thoughts as postscript:

It was not until long after I gave up seeking the gift of speaking in tongues that it became manifest in me.

When it came to me, I was not seeking it, and really had no interest in it. The Spirit and the pastor/prophet were exercising all the iniative; I merely responded to them. My heart was set on something else.

My focus was entirely toward God, and I could not have cared less for anything other than to hear him speak to me.

[joelkaki]

No, and I won't ever thankfully. When my dad was in college (unsaved at the time) he was invited to a church service. He walked in, heard all this jabbering (speaking in tongues, etc) walked right back out.
Very dangerous stuff if you ask me.

Joel

[Rubia Warren]

Oh, it's too bad that you feel that way, joel. It may seem very strange, but it really is a cool thing.

[Sinapis nigra]

La Rubia you speak in toungues all the time! Hablar Espanol es un don de Dios!

[Sinapis nigra]

El don de lenguas es dado por Dios para ayudar y edificar sus hijos y hijas y este es lo que esatas haciendo al traducir y interpritar para Latinos!

[Gavin]

No, and I won't ever thankfully. When my dad was in college (unsaved at the time) he was invited to a church service. He walked in, heard all this jabbering (speaking in tongues, etc) walked right back out.
Very dangerous stuff if you ask me.

Joel
The apostle Paul did not seem to think so:

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself" (I Corinthians 14:4).

"I would like every one of you to speak in tongues" (I Corinthians 14:5a).

"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you." (I Corinthians 14:18)

"Do not forbid speaking in tongues" (I Corinthians 14:39).

[Rubia Warren]

03-04-2003 @ 07:54 PM
Sinapis nigra:

El don de lenguas es dado por Dios para ayudar y edificar sus hijos y hijas y este es lo que esatas haciendo al traducir y interpritar para Latinos!
WOW! I am impressed! Aunque a veces no se si es una bedicion, or una maldicion! HAHA Eres latino, Sinapis? Como saves hablar espanol?

[Gavin]

Aunque a veces no se si es una bedicion, or una maldicion! HAHA Eres latino, Sinapis? Como saves hablar espanol?
Si, si.















(I hope I didn't agree to anything stupid.):dufus:

[Rubia Warren]

03-04-2003 @ 08:15 PM
Gavin:


Si, si.
(I hope I didn't agree to anything stupid.):dufus:

HAHA Nope, you didn't. I just asked him/her if he/she was hispanic, and how he/she knows spanish.

[Gavin]

HAHA Nope, you didn't. I just asked him/her if he/she was hispanic, and how he/she knows spanish.
Whew!

[Rubia Warren]

Wait a minute!!!! Hey, sinapis.....:hrm: you and I know each other from somewhere, don't we?:huh: Aren't you a friend of mine from somewhere else?

[Sinapis nigra]

Claro que SI! Soy "Semilla de Mustaza!" Sinapis negra es el nombre del mustaza que es natural en la tierra de Israel.

[Rubia Warren]

Pues, fijate, te invite' a chequiar este sitio, sin darme cuenta que ya estavas aqui!!! (Recivistes mi mesage personal alla en el otro citio?) Oh, well. Bienvenidos, mi buen amigo!

[Sinapis nigra]

Disculpeme La Rubia! He tenido planes enviarte un mensaje con una soprisa pero he tenido muchas difficultades al tratar hacerlo. Yo debia haber enviado un mensaje en vez de este soprisa pero siempre he olvidado hacerlo. Ojala que me disculpes!

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

If I may humbly give my proverbial "two cents", I speak in tongues. It's been kind of rare right now because I am going thru a rough time at Church. We got new Pastors. My old Pastor was a thinking man who liked to challenge me in my theological thought processes. He was awesome. I was the Youth Pastor and we were really discipling teenagers to be world changers. Unfortunately for me (selfish, I know!!) He was called by God to be a missionary to Guyana.:bawl: We elected a pastor team of Husband and Wife. They believe Theology is a waste. I was asked to step down as Youth pastor, but I haven't heard from God if He wants me to go somewhere else to minister.

Sorry for the tangent, but I had to get that out somewhere. Thank you all for your patience.

Anyway, I speak in tongues and have heard others speak unknown to them Human languages. A gentleman in my old church, before I moved, spoke in Vietnamese, even though he doesn't know a word!! I enjoy speaking in tongues, but I think it's too overused in public right now. It's supposed to be for personal prayer time (except to exhort the church)

[Apollos]

Que Bueno !!

Two people who can speak in REAL tongues !!

Fantastic!!

[Gavin]

If I may humbly give my proverbial "two cents", I speak in tongues. It's been kind of rare right now because I am going thru a rough time at Church. We got new Pastors. My old Pastor was a thinking man who liked to challenge me in my theological thought processes. He was awesome. I was the Youth Pastor and we were really discipling teenagers to be world changers. Unfortunately for me (selfish, I know!!) He was called by God to be a missionary to Guyana. We elected a pastor team of Husband and Wife. They believe Theology is a waste. I was asked to step down as Youth pastor, but I haven't heard from God if He wants me to go somewhere else to minister.

Sorry for the tangent, but I had to get that out somewhere. Thank you all for your patience.

Anyway, I speak in tongues and have heard others speak unknown to them Human languages. A gentleman in my old church, before I moved, spoke in Vietnamese, even though he doesn't know a word!! I enjoy speaking in tongues, but I think it's too overused in public right now. It's supposed to be for personal prayer time (except to exhort the church)
I am sorry to hear about the church situation. Keep us informed if any new opportunities arise.

Your friend,
Gavin

[Sinapis nigra]

I think that it is important that whatever is truely from God be edifying. If God is going to give the gift of toungues I believe it will be a true communication of something of vital importance and not just some sounds comming from a mouth. I believe all who recieve any gift of God (visions, dreams, gift of toungues) can and will recieve an interpritation from God if they seek it.

[Blake Reas]

The question I have are you speaking of speaking in different languages? Or are we talking the "Special" God language that people like benny Hinn uses. If it is the former no, I have not been blessed with that gift if your are talking about the later that is the same pagan babblings that Paul was speaking of in Cornithans.

By His Grace, For His Glory
Blake Reas

[John Reece]

...the same pagan babblings that Paul was speaking of in Cornithans.
:smile:

[Blake Reas]

Here is an article explaining why I reject the "Secret God Language" but do affirm the possibility that believers can speak in different Languages
http://www.the-highway.com/tongues_Hodge.html

[John Reece]

O.K.

Let's nibble on this a bit at a time (I don't have the energy to handle it any other way).

Here is one of Hodges' statements:

They admitted of being interpreted, which supposes them to be intelligible.

Not so.

The interpretation of tongues was not a matter of translation, like what is done at the UN. The interpretation of tongues is one of the spiritual gifts (PNEUMATIKA) about which Paul devoted three chapters of teaching (1 Corinthians 12-14).

The combination of speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues, both being spiritual gifts (PNEUMATIKA), amounts to the same as prophecy (defined as one of the PNEUMATIKA).

[John Reece]

More from Hodge:

Though intelligible in themselves, and to the speaker, they were unintelligible to others, that is, to those not acquainted with the language used; and consequently unsuited for an ordinary Christian assembly. The folly which Paul rebuked was, speaking in Arabic to men who understood only Greek. The speaker might understand what he said, but others were not profited, 1 Corinthians 14:2, 19.

What Hodge is describing is not the PNEUMATIKA which Paul describes.

Hodge wrote about natural phenomena, to which his experience was limited. Paul wrote about spiritual phenomena, which are supernatural and which transcend natural phenomena

- and also transcend the ability of natural people to understand them.

That's what Paul wrote about in the following scripture:

1 Corinthians 2

1And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

6Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"-- 10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16"For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

[AcousticJS]

03-08-2003 @ 10:10 PM
John Reece:
What Hodge is describing is not the PNEUMATIKA which Paul describes.


Absolutely not! The gift of speaking in other languages that Paul speaks of is one where the speaker doesn't know what is being said because his mind is unproductive. How can the speaker know what he is saying if he isn't thinking about it?

I do speak in tongues, frequently and definitely on a daily basis. In my times of personal devotion to the Lord, i find it builds me up in faith, and when accompanied by interpretation it can edify the church. We need all the gifts of the Spirit as described in Scripture. Who are we to say that we don't?

God bless
Jon

[John Reece]

Thanks for the good comment, Jon.

[Apollos]

Jon said:

The gift of speaking in other languages... ...is one where the speaker doesn't know what is being said because his mind is unproductive.
How can the speaker know what he is saying if he isn't thinking about it?

I do speak in tongues... ...i find it builds me up in faith...
You say that you do NOT know what is being said, that the mind is dis-engaged, and yet you say it edifies you??? Remarkable!!

How does that work ???
We need all the gifts of the Spirit as described in Scripture. Who are we to say that we don't? I guess I must ask: Is the written word of God (ei. the Bible) not sufficient to edify you in all ways ???

[John Reece]

I do not speak for Jon; hopefully, he will speak for himself.

But I'd like to respond to the questions:

First question:
Appolos:
You say that you do NOT know what is being said, that the mind is dis-engaged, and yet you say it edifies you??? Remarkable!!
How does that work ???

It may seem incredible, but there is more to man (generically speaking, ladies :smile: ), than the body and the mind. Though strongly disputed by rationalists, there is the spirit, which is not a synonym for the soul.

Speaking in tongues edifies the spirit.

Second question:
Jon:
We need all the gifts of the Spirit as described in Scripture. Who are we to say that we don't?

Apollos:
I guess I must ask: Is the written word of God (ei. the Bible) not sufficient to edify you in all ways ???
No, not in all ways.

Suppose a husband left his wife with a compendium of instructions, advice, love letters, etc. - all she could possibly need in terms of information to substitute for his personal presence. Would what had been left to her been sufficient to edify her in all ways?

Belonging to the Lord involves a bit more than being informed by him in written records.

[John Reece]

Appolos:
I guess I must ask: Is the written word of God (ei. the Bible) not sufficient to edify you in all ways ???
It is precisely the written word of God (i.e., the Bible) that informs us of God's intended purpose for the spiritual gifts (PNEUMATIKA) of which speaking in tongues is one. Furthermore, the Bible informs us of how long these spiritual gifts (PNEUMATIKA) are to function in the church: that is, did they become obsolete by divine fiat circa AD 70, or did God ordain a different time period for them to be manifest in the Church?

I'd be interested in starting a thread which deals not with personal experience but the biblical text on the subject of the spiritual gifts which Paul refers to as PNEUMATIKA.

Anyone interested?

[Apollos]

Hey John -

Thanks for your reply.

It may seem incredible, but there is more to man... ... than the body and the mind.I agree! In Luke 2:52 we read - "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Luke tells us that there are -4- parts to a man - a mind, a body, a soul, and a personality (in Luke's order.)Speaking in tongues edifies the spirit.It would have been great for you to have given a scripture(s) for this thought. Do you have one? How does SITing edify the spirit?? In what ways ???

You may also want to show how you know the speaker knows nothing when he speaks in tongues, how the mind dis-engages, and just how this edifies your spirit in this way.
<<<*>>>
Would what had been left to her been sufficient to edify her in all ways?This is true enough of a physical relationship, but how would you qualify your thoughts for a spiritual relationship? What do YOU think is missing ???
Belonging to the Lord involves a bit more than being informed by him in written records.Then it seems God was deficient in providing man with an all-sufficient written WORD. This makes me wonder why God went to so much trouble to inspire men to write it. Nevertheless that a passage such as 1 Timothy 3:16 seems to "lie" about what the written word provides us. (You know, the man of God being "complete" and all.)
It is precisely the written word of God (i.e., the Bible) that informs us of God's intended purpose for the spiritual gifts... Yes it is! And edification of the spirit is NOT one of them... unless you can find a passage that I cannot find about it.

[John Reece]

Appolos,

You were confused by my using the metaphor of a marriage of husband and wife to illustrate something about the relationship between the Lord and his Body, the Church. The metaphor has not proved helpful to you, so let’s not miss the point by belaboring the illustration.

Eric has answered your questions in the next post.

[efesus]

03-10-2003 @ 04:16 AM
Apollos:
Do you have one? How does SITing edify the spirit?? In what ways ???


1 Cor 14:2-4 - For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

I think that the above scriptures provide the reference you are looking for.
You may also want to show how you know the speaker knows nothing when he speaks in tongues, how the mind dis-engages, and just how this edifies your spirit in this way.

Please see note above and also:

(1Co 14:14-15 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.


Then it seems God was deficient in providing man with an all-sufficient written WORD. This makes me wonder why God went to so much trouble to inspire men to write it. Nevertheless that a passage such as 1 Timothy 3:16 seems to &quot;lie&quot; about what the written word provides us. (You know, the man of God being &quot;complete&quot; and all.)

'Complete' in 2 Tim 3:17 is normally translated in modern versions as 'proficient', 'adequate', 'equipped' - and so on.

As I recall, Scripture does not record itself as being 'all-sufficient'. Indeed the letter without the Sprit brings death (2 Cor 3:6) - the context here demands we understand 'letter' as referring to OT scripture - the very scriptures that Paul asserts are profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteousness.

'Nuff said?

Eric

[joelkaki]

We elected a pastor team of Husband and Wife. They believe Theology is a waste. I was asked to step down as Youth pastor, but I haven't heard from God if He wants me to go somewhere else to minister

Pastor team of husband and wife? Would you clarify exactly what you mean by that statement, because I don't want to say something about it if you don't mean what I think you mean.
Unfortunately, I don't think waiting to "hear from God" is Biblical. We are required to read His Word and study it and ask for wisdom, but God's secret, sovereign will is not for us to know. He has revealed His will to us in His word; He has not chosen to reveal else to us. I don't believe God speaks to people today in the sense of an audible voice.

Joel

[Gavin]

I will refrain from commenting on Apollos' comments even though I strongly disagree with them, since Apollos and I have a debate approaching over this very subject.

Joel, you wrote,

Unfortunately, I don't think waiting to "hear from God" is Biblical. We are required to read His Word and study it and ask for wisdom, but God's secret, sovereign will is not for us to know. He has revealed His will to us in His word; He has not chosen to reveal else to us. I don't believe God speaks to people today in the sense of an audible voice.
Why? What Scriptures lead you to this belief?

Thanks Joel.

[Apollos]

Hi John R. –

I was not confused by your analogy. I was merely pointing out that it was not parallel to the point you attempted to make about relationships. It is quite hard to make physical things analogous to spiritual things.

I have read Eric’s post and answered below. Thank you for your kind attitude!

[Apollos]

efesus -

Thanks for your reply.

1 Corinthians 14:2 – For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 - But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men edification, and exhortation, and consolation.
4 - He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 - Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
ASV

Some observations:

Verse 2 - If one speaks in a tongue that no one can understand, he speaks to God, because only God can understand it. There is no wonder then that it would be a “mystery”. No one but God knows what is being said.

Verse 3 - With prophesy receiving so much acclaim, it makes one wonder why most speak in tongues, and ONLY speak in tongues. Why is that? Where is the prophesying ???

Verse 4 – Is this where you claim the “spirit” is edified ??? How so and in what ways?? I cannot seem to find that context in this passage. Help me out here, okay?

Verse 5 – See my comments on verse 3 and ask yourself why so many SIT when they should prophesy!

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 does not indicate that the mind of the speaker dis-engages and that they know nothing because they may say something in a tongue they do not understand. And I found no reference to “edification of the spirit” in the passage. So…

I would still like you to show:
1.) How you know the speaker knows nothing when he speaks in tongues
2.) How the mind dis-engages
3.) How this edifies your spirit in this way.
(There has not been near “enuf said” !!)

(If this is really true, and you can indeed prove it, how do you know what you are doing anyway ???? How do you know you even did something ????)

Verse 14- For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 - What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The context of verse 14 is in reference of an UNKNOWN tongue – see verse 13. If one prays in a tongue (unknown) his understanding is unfruitful. (That is, he does not comprehend.) This does not mean he does not know what is going on or that his mind is dis-engaged. Paul’s answer to this is to pray with the spirit AND with the understanding !! (Some translations use “with the MIND” !!) Service to and for God must utilize the INTELLECT as well as your emotions !!
<<<<*>>>

'Complete' in 2 Tim 3:17 is normally translated in modern versions as 'proficient', 'adequate', 'equipped' - and so on.Thank you for the correction on the book and verse. It was just too late at night I guess.

2 Timothy 3:16 – “Every scripture inspired of God also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.
17 - That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.”
As I recall, Scripture does not record itself as being 'all-sufficient'.
Hmmm… Let’s reason about this. The passage above says that God inspired scripture and that it is profitable for many reasons. Why ? So that the “man of God” may be “complete” - [i]“artios” = fitted, complete, perfect.

Mr. Thayer’s definition (“artios”) goes deeper – “having reference apparently to "special aptitude for given uses". Look what the scriptures provide the man of God – special aptitude !

Then we read “furnished completely” – ”exartizo” = to complete, finish, to furnish perfectly. This is unto EVERY good work !!

Now if you still believe that the scriptures are NOT “all sufficient” for the “man of God”, perhaps it may be that you did not know what Paul had said here, or don’t believe what Paul told Timothy here, or that you are not a “man of God”. Paul is telling us that we “get it all” !!!
…the context here demands we understand 'letter' as referring to OT scripture…
Verse 16 says “ALL” scripture – all scripture inspired by God is profitable. If the scripture, any scripture at this point is inspired – and NT scripture certainly is – then it is included in what Paul wrote in verse 16. ALL ! Take another look at it!

Your further remarks will be interesting to read I am sure.

[AcousticJS]

03-11-2003 @ 12:27 AM
Apollos:
Some observations:

Verse 2 - If one speaks in a tongue that no one can understand, he speaks to God, because only God can understand it. There is no wonder then that it would be a “mystery”. No one but God knows what is being said.

Verse 3 - With prophesy receiving so much acclaim, it makes one wonder why most speak in tongues, and ONLY speak in tongues. Why is that? Where is the prophesying ???

Verse 4 – Is this where you claim the “spirit” is edified ??? How so and in what ways?? I cannot seem to find that context in this passage. Help me out here, okay?

Verse 5 – See my comments on verse 3 and ask yourself why so many SIT when they should prophesy!


Paul isn't setting speaking in tongues off against prophecy as such - he is talking about their use in a corporate setting. In a corporate setting, I agree that we should be more eager to prophesy - it's a shame we're not.

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 does not indicate that the mind of the speaker dis-engages and that they know nothing because they may say something in a tongue they do not understand.


Granted, these verses do not, but verse 14 does - I'll probably comment on these verses later on.

And I found no reference to “edification of the spirit” in the passage. So…

I would still like you to show:
1.) How you know the speaker knows nothing when he speaks in tongues
2.) How the mind dis-engages
3.) How this edifies your spirit in this way.

(If this is really true, and you can indeed prove it, how do you know what you are doing anyway ???? How do you know you even did something ????)

1) verse 2 says "no-one understands" - surely this includes the person speaking?
2) verse 14 says "the mind is unproductive" - surely if the mind is unproductive, it isn't doing or contributing anything to the experience of SITs?
3) I don't know exactly how I am edified by speaking in tongues - I just trust on the basis of verse 4 that by speaking in tongues, God is doing something in me to edify me.

I'm not saying that the mind is unaware of what is happening - I am aware that I am speaking in tongues while I do it, but my mind isn't controlling what is actually said - I believe that the Holy Spirit is providing the words to say as I speak (as in Acts 2:4)



Verse 14- For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 - What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The context of verse 14 is in reference of an UNKNOWN tongue – see verse 13. If one prays in a tongue (unknown) his understanding is unfruitful. (That is, he does not comprehend.) This does not mean he does not know what is going on or that his mind is dis-engaged. Paul’s answer to this is to pray with the spirit AND with the understanding !! (Some translations use “with the MIND” !!) Service to and for God must utilize the INTELLECT as well as your emotions !!

The word 'unknown' is only really found in KJV, and not in any of the more modern translations (NIV, ESV, NET Bible, NKJV, NASB are the ones I've checked). Even if it were, I would suggest that Paul is not describing two different types of SITs, but qualifying his use of the phrase earlier on. This would support my view that the language and words being spoken are unknown to both speaker and hearers.

Bearing this in mind, I would say that the application of verses 14-15 is to pray in my natural language and pray in tongues - to not become one-sided in our prayer life because both have their advantages and disadvantages.


Thank you for the correction on the book and verse. It was just too late at night I guess.

2 Timothy 3:16 – “Every scripture inspired of God also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.
17 - That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.”

Hmmm… Let’s reason about this. The passage above says that God inspired scripture and that it is profitable for many reasons. Why ? So that the “man of God” may be “complete” - [i]“artios” = fitted, complete, perfect.

Now if you still believe that the scriptures are NOT “all sufficient” for the “man of God”, perhaps it may be that you did not know what Paul had said here, or don’t believe what Paul told Timothy here, or that you are not a “man of God”. Paul is telling us that we “get it all” !!!


What efesus meant (and I know 'cos I was there when he posted - Hi Dad!) is that it is only when the Scriptures are put to use as verse 16 says that we are perfectly prepared for every good work. Applying that to this debate, the Scriptures teach us how to exercise spiritual gifts, and if we choose to disobey God's will as revealed in Scripture on what it has to say then we will not be adequately prepared.

It is in this sense that efesus was saying the Scriptures are not in and of themselves "all-sufficient" as though they are magically able to make us prepared - we need to apply and obey what is revealed in the Scriptures to get the benefits Paul talks about in verse 17. Jesus Himself condemned the Pharisees for studying the Scriptures (as though that in and of itself were life-giving) but refused to acknowledge Him who could give them life. He was saying you need to apply what God has revealed.


Verse 16 says “ALL” scripture – all scripture inspired by God is profitable. If the scripture, any scripture at this point is inspired – and NT scripture certainly is – then it is included in what Paul wrote in verse 16. ALL ! Take another look at it!


I also know that efesus wasn't saying that the NT wasn't inspired. He probably could have expressed himself in a better way, but don't hear what he didn't say!

Hope this has helped.

Blessings in Christ
Jon

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

03-10-2003 @ 10:25 AM
joelkaki:

We elected a pastor team of Husband and Wife. They believe Theology is a waste. I was asked to step down as Youth pastor, but I haven't heard from God if He wants me to go somewhere else to minister

Pastor team of husband and wife? Would you clarify exactly what you mean by that statement, because I don't want to say something about it if you don't mean what I think you mean.
Joel

Gladly. They are both ordained ministers in the IPHC. The Husband is the senior pastor and the wife is the associate.

[Lazy Agnostic]

I attended Without Walls International Church in Tampa, FL for six weeks. They "speak in tongues" there.

Never, in my life, have I seen such an assemblage of weak-minded dupes trying to convince themselves and each other they have a relationship with God.

[Rubia Warren]

03-12-2003 @ 02:56 PM
Lazy Agnostic:

I attended Without Walls International Church in Tampa, FL for six weeks. They &quot;speak in tongues&quot; there.

Never, in my life, have I seen such an assemblage of weak-minded dupes trying to convince themselves and each other they have a relationship with God.
If they were so weak-minded and a bunch of "dupes", then what made you keep going back for 6 whole weeks?

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

03-12-2003 @ 02:56 PM
Lazy Agnostic:

I attended Without Walls International Church in Tampa, FL for six weeks. They &quot;speak in tongues&quot; there.

Never, in my life, have I seen such an assemblage of weak-minded dupes trying to convince themselves and each other they have a relationship with God.


Wow!! 6 weeks huh?? Probably took you that long to interview all of those people individually, and take the reaults to a lab to determine that all of the people had weak minds. How dare you decide on your high "agnostic" horse who has a relationship with who. 1. It's not your business. 2. Do you have a strong minded relationship with God? What do you base this "weak minded" comment on?

[John Reece]

Yesterday, a fiery dart found its mark in my heart. It stayed there until I took my wife to the local Presbyterian church to print out the worship service bulletin and practice the hymns for Sunday on the organ.

As she went into the building to do the printing and practicing, I took a walk in the cemetary. A minute into the walk, I lifted my heart to God to have the dart removed. I made the request in English, and without thinking about it, I began praying in tongues and continued to do so for quite some time, until a friend drove up and interrupted the session.

When I began praying I was depressed and ashamed for having allowed myself to have been wounded by the enemy. By the time the friend interrupted my praying, there was nothing left where the dart had been but the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, etc.

I have never spoken in tongues in public; but in private, there are times when this manifestation of the Spirit comes through to cleanse and edify my spirit.

[Rubia Warren]

That's awesome!:thumb:

[John Reece]

Post edited.

More appropriate for a PM.

[undead]

03-12-2003 @ 07:56 PM
Lazy Agnostic:

I attended Without Walls International Church in Tampa, FL for six weeks. They &quot;speak in tongues&quot; there.

Never, in my life, have I seen such an assemblage of weak-minded dupes trying to convince themselves and each other they have a relationship with God.

I agree. Paul points out the futility of speaking in tongues in the church service:

1Cr 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue.


And then there is:

1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches:


which they universally disobey. They reject the gift of prophecy, in favour of incomprehensible gibberish. That is not good. They remain:

"children in understanding" 1Cr 14:20

rather than

"in understanding men" 1Cr 14:20


To them does the following prophecy apply:

1 Cor 14;38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he [1] is not recognized. (NASB)


I guess by not recognizing them as Christians, you demonstrated the fulfillment of the prophecy!

[AcousticJS]

03-15-2003 @ 06:34 PM
undead:
I agree. Paul points out the futility of speaking in tongues in the church service:

1Cr 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue.


And then there is:

1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches:


which they universally disobey. They reject the gift of prophecy, in favour of incomprehensible gibberish. That is not good. They remain:

&quot;children in understanding&quot; 1Cr 14:20

rather than

&quot;in understanding men&quot; 1Cr 14:20



Let's put those texts in context yeh? Cos the same Paul also said that speaking in tongues should not be forbidden in a public context (14:39). He doesn't in any way say or suggest that speaking in tongues is 'futile' in a public meeting. He instead says that speaking in tongues is to be encouraged and expected in a poublic meeting (14:26) but WITH interpretation. All verse 19 is saying is that prophecy is to be preferred in the church meeting, and it is the view that says that tongues is more important than prophecy that is 'childish' - not the speaking in tongues itself.

As a charismatic, it is a concern of mine that there is perhaps too much speaking in tongues in a public meeting, but we by no means reject the gift of prophecy either. In fact, the churches (one at uni, one at home) I'm part of seem to put much more value on prophecy than tongues, while not forbidding anything the Spirit of God does.


To them does the following prophecy apply:

1 Cor 14;38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he [1] is not recognized. (NASB)


I guess by not recognizing them as Christians, you demonstrated the fulfillment of the prophecy!

I don't think the guy was saying he wasn't recognising them as Christians. In fact, I think he was saying "they are Christians, and I want no part of that."

God bless
Jon