PDA

View Full Version : The Fountainhead



Meh Gerbil
03-27-2017, 10:00 AM
I'm reading The Fountainhead.
I'm willing to suffer Ayn Rand's sentimentality in order to pick up a few pointers on the healthcare debate.

Sparko
03-27-2017, 10:29 AM
I'm reading The Fountainhead.
I'm willing to suffer Ayn Rand's sentimentality in order to pick up a few pointers on the healthcare debate.

Spoiler: They all die when the deathstar explodes.

Meh Gerbil
03-27-2017, 01:02 PM
Spoiler: They all die when the deathstar explodes.
Thanks for ruining it.

Sparko
03-27-2017, 01:19 PM
Thanks for ruining it.anything to help illiteracy.

Starlight
03-27-2017, 08:18 PM
I suggest you have a read of this background (http://www.rawstory.com/2015/01/how-ayn-rand-became-a-big-admirer-of-serial-killer-william-hickman/) on Ayn Rand and her inspiration for the Fountainhead. She seems to have been a deranged person who idolized psychopathic serial killers. You may want to bear that in mind before taking her nonsense too seriously.

Meh Gerbil
03-28-2017, 06:44 AM
I suggest you have a read of this background (http://www.rawstory.com/2015/01/how-ayn-rand-became-a-big-admirer-of-serial-killer-william-hickman/) on Ayn Rand and her inspiration for the Fountainhead. She seems to have been a deranged person who idolized psychopathic serial killers. You may want to bear that in mind before taking her nonsense too seriously.I did read up on her.
I found your link in Civics to be useful even if a bit over the top - a sub link in that article provided a more rounded perspective.

I'm enjoying her take down of altruism.
She's wrong, of course, but her criticism matches many of my own reservations.
She is absolutely correct that many people use the poor as a tool and that much of our society detests excellence.

It is a fun read.

Starlight
03-28-2017, 03:04 PM
She is absolutely correct that many people use the poor as a toolAre you going for some sort of "helping the poor is a talking point the Left uses to conceal its real agenda of helping the poor" theory?


and that much of our society detests excellence.Okay, I'll grant you that there's a significant anti-science anti-education bloc in US society.

Darth Executor
03-28-2017, 03:43 PM
Starlight's panicking in this thread is a good example of how fragile liberalism is. He can't stand the idea of anybody reading anything that contradicts his dogma without making sure they get "the other opinion" right away, and if he could he'd prevent you from reading Ayn Rand altogether.

Meh Gerbil
03-28-2017, 04:06 PM
Are you going for some sort of "helping the poor is a talking point the Left uses to conceal its real agenda of helping the poor" theory?
Okay, I'll grant you that there's a significant anti-science anti-education bloc in US society.
I'm in a weird place right now, a place where your response is expected and yet so very bizarre.

Just so you know, I don't view anything I've read as a tool to be used against liberalism.
I'm quickly reaching the place where liberalism just simply isn't worth my attention.

Meh Gerbil
03-28-2017, 04:08 PM
Starlight's panicking in this thread is a good example of how fragile liberalism is. He can't stand the idea of anybody reading anything that contradicts his dogma without making sure they get "the other opinion" right away, and if he could he'd prevent you from reading Ayn Rand altogether.
It is odd to read a book written by someone who actually likes men.

Starlight
03-28-2017, 04:55 PM
It is odd to read a book written by someone who actually likes men.? You could try reading a book authored by a gay man I guess.

I'm not sure whether to laugh at your implied claim that libs in general don't like men and the naivety that it implies on your part, or whether to be mildly disturbed that you're saying this about a book who's main character apparently begins his major relationship with what is alleged by some to be rape.


I'm quickly reaching the place where liberalism just simply isn't worth my attention.Hmm okay. I read that statement as saying you're quickly leaving all connection with sanity and reality. I guess you can if you like.

Meh Gerbil
03-28-2017, 05:12 PM
You could try reading a book authored by a gay man I guess.
I've Oscar Wilde on my shelf.


I'm not sure whether to laugh at your implied claim that libs in general don't like men and the naivety that it implies on your part, or whether to be mildly disturbed that you're saying this about a book who's main character apparently begins his major relationship with what is alleged by some to be rape.It has been a while since I've seen masculinity celebrated.
I hadn't mentioned liberalism in that context.


Hmm okay. I read that statement as saying you're quickly leaving all connection with sanity and reality. I guess you can if you like.
Thanks for granting permission.

rogue06
03-28-2017, 05:27 PM
I've Oscar Wilde on my shelf.
Père Lachaise Cemetery is going to be exceedingly perturbed at this news because that is where he is supposed to be interred.

Starlight
03-28-2017, 05:28 PM
It has been a while since I've seen masculinity celebrated.Does it need to be? (serious question) I mean, I'm a man, confident in my masculinity, I don't feel that my masculinity is threatened in any way by women celebrating femininity or by whiney outraged 3rd wave feminists posting rants on facebook about the patriarchy and rape culture. It seems to me that masculinity is self-asserting and self-celebrating, and that if someone's masculinity is so insecure that whiney women threaten it then they're probably doing it wrong. And, frankly, doesn't every action movie where the hero mows down a few thousand enemies to save his helpless and defenceless woman celebrate masculinity? I guess I don't understand the need for masculinity to be celebrated / don't understand your view that it isn't already being celebrated.

rogue06
03-28-2017, 05:56 PM
It is odd to read a book written by someone who actually likes men.
Never read anything authored by a woman?

Meh Gerbil
03-28-2017, 06:01 PM
And, frankly, doesn't every action movie where the hero mows down a few thousand enemies to save his helpless and defenceless woman celebrate masculinity?Over the past few years I've really lost my taste for revenge porn.
That is the plot to about 50% of the movies made these days.

By revenge porn I mean the pornography of watching a mistreated person get highly stylized and graphic revenge on some enemies.
We're supposed to be okay with the violence because 'they had it coming'.

Gross.

Meh Gerbil
03-28-2017, 06:02 PM
Never read anything authored by a woman?
See the title of the thread.

Starlight
03-28-2017, 06:07 PM
We're supposed to be okay with the violence because 'they had it coming'.So what qualities of masculinity is it that you are pleased to see the Fountainhead celebrating?

KingsGambit
03-28-2017, 06:23 PM
It is odd to read a book written by someone who actually likes men.

I don't think Rand truly liked anybody other than herself.

Starlight
03-28-2017, 06:45 PM
I don't think Rand truly liked anybody other than herself.I'm always a bit confused when I see "Christians" approving of her idolization of selfishness and lack of concern for others... like, how does that fit with the whole love thy neighbour / love others thing?

Meh Gerbil
03-29-2017, 05:43 AM
I don't think Rand truly liked anybody other than herself.She was married for 50 years.

Meh Gerbil
03-29-2017, 05:44 AM
I'm always a bit confused when I see "Christians" approving of her idolization of selfishness and lack of concern for others... like, how does that fit with the whole love thy neighbour / love others thing?If you find a Christian doing that you should go ahead and ask him that question.
I'd be interested in the answer to that chestnut myself.

Trout
03-29-2017, 07:15 AM
I do like Howard in some ways, but his bloated self-importance and worship of his own individualism was wearisome.

Self seeking individualism stripped of a veneration for those upon whose shoulders we stand is partly why society is in such a mess today.

I haven't read the book in a decade or so.

Trout
03-29-2017, 07:18 AM
I'm not sure whether to laugh at your implied claim that libs in general don't like men and the naivety that it implies on your part, or whether to be mildly disturbed that you're saying this about a book who's main character apparently begins his major relationship with what is alleged by some to be rape.


Who made you the hall monitor of our thoughts?

Your opinion is one thing, but your thought-shaming is quite another

Meh Gerbil
03-29-2017, 07:22 AM
I do like Howard in some ways, but his bloated self-importance and worship of his own individualism was wearisome.
To me he seemed to be the least self-absorbed character in the novel.

JimL
03-29-2017, 07:30 AM
I'm reading The Fountainhead.
I'm willing to suffer Ayn Rand's sentimentality in order to pick up a few pointers on the healthcare debate.

Ayn Rand, like most sociopaths, was a hypocrite. Always anti government, until they themselves are in need, then they're all for it. Rand spent the last years of her life on government assistance.

Meh Gerbil
03-29-2017, 07:33 AM
Ayn Rand, like most sociopaths, was a hypocrite. Always anti government, until they themselves are in need, then they're all for it. Rand spent the last years of her life on government assistance.Golly, now I kind of feel bad about buying and reading her book.

Meh Gerbil
03-29-2017, 07:40 AM
I've a copy just like this one:
21605

I dog-eared the pages and marked it up just like grandma did with her bible.

Trout
03-29-2017, 07:52 AM
To me he seemed to be the least self-absorbed character in the novel.

Innovation isn't the most important hill to die on. That's why Howard irritated me.

In other news: the liberals and atheists don't seem to like this book/author

Sparko
03-29-2017, 07:58 AM
Over the past few years I've really lost my taste for revenge porn.
That is the plot to about 50% of the movies made these days.

By revenge porn I mean the pornography of watching a mistreated person get highly stylized and graphic revenge on some enemies.
We're supposed to be okay with the violence because 'they had it coming'.

Gross.

Well if they did it realistically, it would take 5 years for the police investigation till they arrested the guy, who would never confess but just ask for a lawyer, then another 5 years waiting for a trial, where he either gets off, is sent to jail for 20 years but gets out in 5, and the audience is bored to tears.

Sparko
03-29-2017, 08:07 AM
Ayn Rand, like most sociopaths, was a hypocrite. Always anti government, until they themselves are in need, then they're all for it. Rand spent the last years of her life on government assistance.

right. Social Security isn't government assistance Jimmy. You pay into it your entire working life. well maybe not you, but normal working people do.

Meh Gerbil
03-29-2017, 08:08 AM
Well if they did it realistically, it would take 5 years for the police investigation till they arrested the guy, who would never confess but just ask for a lawyer, then another 5 years waiting for a trial, where he either gets off, is sent to jail for 20 years but gets out in 5, and the audience is bored to tears.I was bored to tears all through 'Logan' and that featured a mutant with razor sharp claws rescuing other mutants.
I kept hoping for a theatre shooter to deliver me.

Sparko
03-29-2017, 08:13 AM
21606

Meh Gerbil
03-29-2017, 08:33 AM
21606

It is ironic to see her become the victim of the same sort of tactics that characters in her book used to tear down the protagonist.
I'm so tired, so very tired, of toolbags.

Carrikature
03-29-2017, 11:32 AM
I was bored to tears all through 'Logan' and that featured a mutant with razor sharp claws rescuing other mutants.
I kept hoping for a theatre shooter to deliver me.

I've been watching video documentaries on YouTube channels Every Frame A Painting and kaptainkristian that deal with some of this. The revenge stuff is bad enough, but the fighting is abysmal.

Carrikature
03-29-2017, 11:33 AM
Innovation isn't the most important hill to die on. That's why Howard irritated me.

In other news: the liberals and atheists don't seem to like this book/author

I don't mind her so much. She just seems to miss the part where self-interest necessarily involves doing things for others. :shrug:

Meh Gerbil
03-29-2017, 11:45 AM
I don't mind her so much. She just seems to miss the part where self-interest necessarily involves doing things for others. :shrug:
I *think* she'd argue that letting people like Howard Roark succeed is the best way to allow them to help others.
I don't know how doing things for others out of self-interest would be morally superior to any other type of selfishness.

I'd appreciated her take downs of altruistic behavior because it is a helpful tool for examining my own motivations.

Meh Gerbil
03-29-2017, 11:45 AM
I've been watching video documentaries on YouTube channels Every Frame A Painting and kaptainkristian that deal with some of this. The revenge stuff is bad enough, but the fighting is abysmal.Elaborate on this if you don't mind.

Sparko
03-29-2017, 11:46 AM
I watched Atlas Shrugged a couple of years ago and thought it was great. It is a trilogy.

first movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0480239/?ref_=fn_al_tt_4

Jedidiah
03-29-2017, 12:38 PM
right. Social Security isn't government assistance Jimmy. You pay into it your entire working life. well maybe not you, but normal working people do.


Yeah. Big brother takes your money and gives you some back when you get old.

Sparko
03-29-2017, 12:42 PM
Yeah. Big brother takes your money and gives you some back when you get old.hoping you die soon so they can keep the rest to pay for others.

The Melody Maker
03-29-2017, 04:14 PM
My first glance at the title of this thread makes me think of this...

http://bradshawsdirect.co.uk.cdn.vortexcommerce.com/media/wysiwyg/minipond/minipond_fountain_heads.jpg?1455648471

Water fountains are pretty. :smile:

Starlight
03-29-2017, 04:24 PM
She just seems to miss the part where self-interest necessarily involves doing things for others.That seems like kind of an important thing to miss. Obviously even a fully selfish person wants their own life improved by having a good relationship with their spouse and family and friends, and having good relationships involves treating those people well and trying to ensure their well-being. And we know from scientific research that emotional states are contagious and people are happier when those around them are happier, and we also know that 6 major determinants of happiness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report) in any society are: log of GDP per person, social support, healthy life expectancy, freedom to make life choices, generosity, and perceptions of corruption. Likewise individual happiness is known to scale with the log of income, which means that money contributes increasingly less to your happiness as you earn more of it. For a selfish rich person to maximize their own happiness, they are therefore selfishly incentivized to see that some of their money (which is giving them minimal happiness increases due to logarithmic scaling) is redirected towards those around them in society to reduce criminality, increase public health, reduce corruption etc in order to increase the life expectancy and freedom etc of the people around them and indirectly increase their own happiness by improving some of those other variables that are known to improve societal happiness.

rogue06
03-29-2017, 04:35 PM
My first glance at the title of this thread makes me think of this...

http://bradshawsdirect.co.uk.cdn.vortexcommerce.com/media/wysiwyg/minipond/minipond_fountain_heads.jpg?1455648471

Water fountains are pretty. :smile:
If your thinking of a fountain head it should be a fountain head

21619

Carrikature
03-29-2017, 07:21 PM
I don't know how doing things for others out of self-interest would be morally superior to any other type of selfishness.

I wouldn't call it morally superior. I would call it necessary. It's been a while since I've read her, but it always seemed like she didn't understand that.

Carrikature
03-29-2017, 07:47 PM
Elaborate on this if you don't mind.

I think it's a few things. I'd start with actual character depth (or lack thereof). KaptainKristian's bit on Spider-man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fO1sY_Dg-M) is a good example of how it could be, but isn't.

Second is the addition of 'epicness' a la Michael Bay. That is, make the film feel huge and massive in lieu of anything actually happening. Tony of Every Frame a Painting illustrates how that's done with his bit on Bayhem (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2THVvshvq0Q). Throughout this video you can see shots from Bay films where everything is slowed down and moving all epic while the characters are doing...nothing. Maybe standing up. Maybe making some goofy slo-mo face.

Third is the way films cut out huge sections of the actual fights. Tony has another bit on Jackie Chan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ) regarding how to do action. I strongly recommend this one. The way most American films handle fight scenes actually eliminates the feeling of action even when the characters are in the middle of some big fight scene. This bit was especially interesting to me. I've noticed the issue with the fight scenes without being able to describe what I've been noticing.

Fourth, (and this is also mentioned in the Jackie Chan clip) modern protagonists are effectively invincible no matter the odds. They never get (seriously) hurt, so it's not like there's any real doubt that they'll survive or overcome whatever obstacle is in their way. You already know the outcome, and it's boring. To compensate, you get Michael Bay epicness to make things tougher, but it's all just fluff.

Darth Executor
03-29-2017, 09:23 PM
I've Oscar Wilde on my shelf.

It has been a while since I've seen masculinity celebrated.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-2p5XKcYxg

Meh Gerbil
03-30-2017, 05:56 AM
I think it's a few things. I'd start with actual character depth (or lack thereof). KaptainKristian's bit on Spider-man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fO1sY_Dg-M) is a good example of how it could be, but isn't.

Second is the addition of 'epicness' a la Michael Bay. That is, make the film feel huge and massive in lieu of anything actually happening. Tony of Every Frame a Painting illustrates how that's done with his bit on Bayhem (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2THVvshvq0Q). Throughout this video you can see shots from Bay films where everything is slowed down and moving all epic while the characters are doing...nothing. Maybe standing up. Maybe making some goofy slo-mo face.

Third is the way films cut out huge sections of the actual fights. Tony has another bit on Jackie Chan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1PCtIaM_GQ) regarding how to do action. I strongly recommend this one. The way most American films handle fight scenes actually eliminates the feeling of action even when the characters are in the middle of some big fight scene. This bit was especially interesting to me. I've noticed the issue with the fight scenes without being able to describe what I've been noticing.

Fourth, (and this is also mentioned in the Jackie Chan clip) modern protagonists are effectively invincible no matter the odds. They never get (seriously) hurt, so it's not like there's any real doubt that they'll survive or overcome whatever obstacle is in their way. You already know the outcome, and it's boring. To compensate, you get Michael Bay epicness to make things tougher, but it's all just fluff.
I've all but stopped going to the movies.
I now prefer Netflix where a character can be developed over an entire season.
This makes a typical movie seem like a very shallow experience.

Darth Executor
03-30-2017, 12:46 PM
i watched 3 seasons of Daredevil and there wasn't a shred of character development.

Meh Gerbil
03-30-2017, 01:32 PM
i watched 3 seasons of Daredevil and there wasn't a shred of character development.
Excellent fight scenes though.

Carrikature
04-03-2017, 11:15 AM
I've all but stopped going to the movies.
I now prefer Netflix where a character can be developed over an entire season.
This makes a typical movie seem like a very shallow experience.

I go to the movies when we visit my in-laws because that's what they like to do. I have a really hard time sitting still at home when trying to watch a movie. They're too predictable. I agree that (good) TV shows are a lot better since they can develop characters.

Fun fact: a lot of kids movies have reasonably good character development. Pixar is a main go-to for that.

Sparko
04-03-2017, 11:29 AM
I go to the movies when we visit my in-laws because that's what they like to do. I have a really hard time sitting still at home when trying to watch a movie. They're too predictable. I agree that (good) TV shows are a lot better since they can develop characters.

Fun fact: a lot of kids movies have reasonably good character development. Pixar is a main go-to for that.

I am a movie prophet. I ruin movies and tv shows by telling everyone around me what is going to happen next, who the bad guy really is on mystery and cop shows, and all that. yeah I am that guy. :smug:

rogue06
04-03-2017, 11:39 AM
I am a movie prophet. I ruin movies and tv shows by telling everyone around me what is going to happen next, who the bad guy really is on mystery and cop shows, and all that. yeah I am that guy. :smug:
There's very few I don't see what's coming. The movie the Sixth Sense was probably the last one that took me by complete surprise.

Sparko
04-03-2017, 11:50 AM
There's very few I don't see what's coming. The movie the Sixth Sense was probably the last one that took me by complete surprise.Cop TV shows are especially easy to predict. The bad guy is nearly always the recognizable actor who usually plays bit parts or is a has-been trying to make a comeback or make a few bucks. One time I said "he did it" when I recognized the actor before the crime even happened. I pissed my brother off when I was right.

rogue06
04-03-2017, 12:27 PM
Cop TV shows are especially easy to predict. The bad guy is nearly always the recognizable actor who usually plays bit parts or is a has-been trying to make a comeback or make a few bucks. One time I said "he did it" when I recognized the actor before the crime even happened. I pissed my brother off when I was right.
Murder She Wrote through a wrench into that by having a bunch of actors like that. Look for the character who is briefly introduced and then basically drops out of sight.

Carrikature
04-03-2017, 03:43 PM
There's very few I don't see what's coming. The movie the Sixth Sense was probably the last one that took me by complete surprise.

No Country for Old Men.

Carrikature
04-03-2017, 03:44 PM
Cop TV shows are especially easy to predict. The bad guy is nearly always the recognizable actor who usually plays bit parts or is a has-been trying to make a comeback or make a few bucks. One time I said "he did it" when I recognized the actor before the crime even happened. I pissed my brother off when I was right.

I liked The Mentalist a lot. You met all the characters, so it was always a "which one and why" thing. Mostly I dislike Cop TV shows because they jump straight to accusing the next suspect on their list. Castle was extremely bad at that.

Meh Gerbil
04-11-2017, 10:03 AM
I'm cutting edge:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/10/new-age-ayn-rand-conquered-trump-white-house-silicon-valley

BTW, her name 'Ayn' is pronounced as to rhyme with 'mine'.

Jedidiah
04-11-2017, 12:09 PM
1950s cutting edge.