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James Cusick
04-04-2017, 08:06 AM
The reason that every person throughout humanity does get SAVED is because Jesus paid the punishment (or penalty) in full for all of humanity, and so not even one (1) sinful sheep will remain lost or left out.

Every claim contrary to that simple truth is just human fear and confusion and absurdities.

We are to love our enemies just as God loves His enemies = Matthew 5:43-48 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A43-48&version=KJV), and love does not burn people in torment and there is no place of Hell (http://www.heavennet.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/hellfire-1000x480.jpg).

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

Meh Gerbil
04-04-2017, 08:13 AM
I would agree that all men are forgiven; however, the difference seems to be between whether or not a person avails themselves of forgiveness. In this model God doesn't condemn a person to hell (or extinction, etc) but the person chooses it over living loved. I think people can choose to live condemned throughout eternity - condemned by sin, living with the consequences of sin, and so forth.

This allows for God to completely forgive but the person choosing to live in pain (pain not caused by God or his wrath).

Christianbookworm
04-04-2017, 08:27 AM
Oh, another universalist. Well, what about the folk who don't want to be saved? Forcing them to be in God's presence would still be hell for them. Keep in mind that I believe hell is a state of shame and not a place of fire and torture.

James Cusick
04-04-2017, 08:49 AM
I would agree that all men are forgiven; however, the difference seems to be between whether or not a person avails themselves of forgiveness. In this model God doesn't condemn a person to hell (or extinction, etc) but the person chooses it over living loved. I think people can choose to live condemned throughout eternity - condemned by sin, living with the consequences of sin, and so forth.

This allows for God to completely forgive but the person choosing to live in pain (pain not caused by God or his wrath).
There truly is nothing and nowhere in the Bible that says people have any realistic choice, and it is egotistical to think that people have any real choice against the will of God.

Choosing sin is to hurt our self.

When God declares these words = COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, Revelations 18:4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+18%3A3-4&version=KJV) - then that is not a request and no one can say or choose to not come out - it is a command.

No one chose to be born, and no one really chooses to die, and no one gets to choose about being resurrected or of being saved.

Our human choices are very limited.

thewriteranon
04-04-2017, 08:56 AM
There truly is nothing and nowhere in the Bible that says people have any realistic choice, and it is egotistical to think that people have any real choice against the will of God.

Choosing sin is to hurt our self.

When God declares these words = COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, Revelations 18:4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+18%3A3-4&version=KJV) - then that is not a request and no one can say or choose to not come out - it is a command.

No one chose to be born, and no one really chooses to die, and no one gets to choose about being resurrected or of being saved.

Our human choices are very limited.

There is no book of Revelations

James Cusick
04-04-2017, 09:01 AM
Oh, another universalist.
Yes - but I am far more radical than any of the others.



Well, what about the folk who don't want to be saved? Forcing them to be in God's presence would still be hell for them. Keep in mind that I believe hell is a state of shame and not a place of fire and torture.
It does not matter whatever disobedient children want or do not want, as the Father rules over the children.

When people meet our Maker then there will be great repentance and universal forgiveness.
Romans 14:
10 "... we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God."

The payment given by Christ will stand for every person to receive their SALVATION.


Keep in mind that I believe hell is a state of shame and not a place of fire and torture.
In that case you are much farther ahead then others.

There are different kinds of shame, as in healthy shame and toxic unhealthy shame, and our rightful shame will last forever, the other kind will not.

Meh Gerbil
04-04-2017, 09:05 AM
There truly is nothing and nowhere in the Bible that says people have any realistic choice, and it is egotistical to think that people have any real choice against the will of God.So you'd hold that people don't ever disobey God?


When God declares these words = COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, Revelations 18:4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+18%3A3-4&version=KJV) - then that is not a request and no one can say or choose to not come out - it is a command.People disobey the 10 commandments all of the time.
You've not illustrated how this command is any different.

If you're going to be one of those nutjobs that reads conclusions into verses that aren't even addressing the topic then I'm out of here.
I've no patience for the John Martin bug-eyed approach to discussing scripture.


No one chose to be born, and no one really chooses to die, and no one gets to choose about being resurrected or of being saved.This is your conclusion.
You've not demonstrated it.


Our human choices are very limited.
True.
This doesn't address your larger point.

Cerebrum123
04-04-2017, 09:07 AM
The following verses, and their surrounding context destroy your claims. There are a few things we can learn about "hell" in these passages, 1) it's eternal, 2) the devil and his angels will be there, 3) those there will never have rest, day or night, and 4) it's better to be mutilated bodily than to end up there.

Matthew 18:8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 5:29 If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

2 Peter 2:3-5New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a [a]preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

There is much more that could be said, but these things alone are enough to refute what you've claimed so far.

Meh Gerbil
04-04-2017, 09:08 AM
Romans 14:
10 "... we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God."

The 'we' that I've emphasized here is important.
The 'we', in a letter addressed to Roman Christians, would be other believers.
The context also makes this very clear.

James Cusick
04-04-2017, 09:41 AM
So you'd hold that people don't ever disobey God?
That is kind-of true, but to be more accurate then it is just that any human disobedience is minor and insignificant to the bigger picture.

A child disobeying their parent does not mean the child gets thrown out, because the parent uses the children's disobedience to teach the child, and punishment from a loving parent is just to teach and not to harm.

Every person is a child of God - and God will SAVE every one of His children.



People disobey the 10 commandments all of the time.
You've not illustrated how this command is any different.
Jesus paid the punishment in full.

And the commandments are there for people to choose life and to live better, instead of the commandments being misused for condemnation.



If you're going to be one of those nutjobs that reads conclusions into verses that aren't even addressing the topic then I'm out of here.
I've no patience for the John Martin bug-eyed approach to discussing scripture.
I do not know what that means,

but I welcome any nutjob or bug-eyed approach to talk with me.


The 'we' that I've emphasized here is important.
The 'we', in a letter addressed to Roman Christians, would be other believers.
The context also makes this very clear.
I understand the claim that your God is the God of only a few select people, but I am referring to the God of all humanity, without any person getting lost or left out.

The text has broader applications, and God is so much bigger than that.

James Cusick
04-04-2017, 09:45 AM
There is no book of Revelations
Okay ~ I admit that I was wrong.

You caught me in this and I openly confess my error.

I hereby repent and make amends.

The correct spelling is without an "s" on the end as = Revelation.

Please forgive me for my failing?

James Cusick
04-04-2017, 09:49 AM
The following verses, and their surrounding context destroy your claims. There are a few things we can learn about "hell" in these passages, 1) it's eternal, 2) the devil and his angels will be there, 3) those there will never have rest, day or night, and 4) it's better to be mutilated bodily than to end up there.

Matthew 18:8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 5:29 If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

2 Peter 2:3-5New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a [a]preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

There is much more that could be said, but these things alone are enough to refute what you've claimed so far.
All of those are misguided and misinterpretations.

The old Greek word for Hell was Hades from the old Greek religion, and Hades was the God of the underworld.

The Gospel is written in the old Greek language yes, but Jesus did not preach the Greek religion.

Christianbookworm
04-04-2017, 10:11 AM
Story time! There once was a chowder of stray and feral cats that lived in the woods. They were cold in the winter and hot in the summer. They never had enough to eat and lived lives of fear. However, there was an owner of a cat sanctuary that took pity on them. He wanted to rescue the cats and give them a home. So, his son went out to coax them to the shelter. They could have just trapped all of the cats, but they didn't want to scare them any more than needed. So, they mainly stuck to gathering up the friendly strays that would come to them and any abandoned kittens. The feral cats were afraid that the humans wanted to kill or torture them, so they ran far away and would not let themselves be caught. Now the ones that were rescued lived happily ever after in a warm cozy place full of all the things a cat would love. The feral cats continued to live as they always had, not realizing the happiness that would be theirs if only they'd been rescued.

There are humans who are like those feral cats in that they would not want to be saved. For God to save them against their will would be like keeping a wild animal as a pet.

Sparko
04-04-2017, 11:15 AM
All of those are misguided and misinterpretations.

ah! the old "hand-wave away anything that proves me wrong" tactic. Very original. :lol:

Christianbookworm
04-04-2017, 11:18 AM
ah! the old "hand-wave away anything that proves me wrong" tactic. Very original. :lol:

Is this mickiel's twin? Sounds familiar...

And what about those who committed untypeable(I'd say unspeakable, but I'm typing and not speaking, so...) acts? Shouldn't there be justice for their victims? Why should they get to go to the same place as an innocent baby when they are unrepentant jerks?

Sparko
04-04-2017, 11:21 AM
Is this mickiel's twin? Sounds familiar...

And what about those who committed untypeable(I'd say unspeakable, but I'm typing and not speaking, so...) acts? Shouldn't there be justice for their victims? Why should they get to go to the same place as an innocent baby when they are unrepentant jerks?

Pretty much Meh Gerbil is right. You can't really debate with nutjobs that just throw out any evidence that they are wrong and quote-mine the bible to claim they are right. They are not reasonable or open to logic.

Meh Gerbil
04-04-2017, 11:32 AM
That is kind-of true
No, it was absolutely true.
People cannot just 'kinda' disobey God.
There would be no need for the cross were it not for serious trespass.


Every person is a child of God - and God will SAVE every one of His children.
You keep saying that but you seem to be lacking Scriptural support.
HINT: I'm very sympathetic to your view but you've got to back it with Scripture.



And the commandments are there for people to choose life and to live better, instead of the commandments being misused for condemnation.You have this absolutely backwards.
1: The law's role is to condemn us - Romans 3:19
2: We aren't to live by the law, not even as a guide - Romans 6:14


I understand the claim that your God is the God of only a few select people, but I am referring to the God of all humanity, without any person getting lost or left out.Romans was addressed to Christians.
You attempted to apply a text written to Christians and about Christians to all people.
I made no statements about God reigning over only a few select people.


The text has broader applications, and God is so much bigger than that.
No, you don't get to take a passage and run hither and yon with it.
I agree God is much bigger than we can comprehend; however, that isn't a license to begin making bold proclamations about what He is going to do what He isn't going to do. You need to make your case with Scripture and you haven't done that yet.

Meh Gerbil
04-04-2017, 11:38 AM
All of those are misguided and misinterpretations.
The old Greek word for Hell was Hades from the old Greek religion, and Hades was the God of the underworld.
The Gospel is written in the old Greek language yes, but Jesus did not preach the Greek religion.
Hell is a translation of three different words, one of the words being 'Hades' but another popular one being 'Gehenna', a reference to the dump outside Jerusalem.
Regardless, it was addressed as a real place that would be inhabited - and you have to deal with that.

This hand waving is not acceptable.

Trout
04-04-2017, 11:45 AM
Hell is a translation of three different words, one of the words being 'Hades' but another popular one being 'Gehenna', a reference to the dump outside Jerusalem.
Regardless, it was addressed as a real place that would be inhabited - and you have to deal with that.

This hand waving is not acceptable.

Mossrose? Is that you?

Meh Gerbil
04-04-2017, 11:46 AM
Mossrose? Is that you?
Shouldn't you be stocking up on ammo?

Trout
04-04-2017, 11:49 AM
Shouldn't you be stocking up on ammo?

I'm now curled up in a ball, scared of this hades thing you have going?

Sparko
04-04-2017, 11:53 AM
I'm now curled up in a ball, scared of this hades thing you have going?You already live there, Trout. no worries.

Meh Gerbil
04-04-2017, 11:55 AM
I'm now curled up in a ball, scared of this hades thing you have going?
I'd love to lose this debate.

Trout
04-04-2017, 12:07 PM
The doctrine of hell makes people squeamish. What if we loved God's holiness so much that we actually rejoiced at those burning in hades?

That's a creepy thought

Christianbookworm
04-04-2017, 12:09 PM
The doctrine of hell makes people squeamish. What if we loved God's holiness so much that we actually rejoiced at those burning in hades?

That's a creepy thought

How about if it's a state of shame and not a literal lake of fire and torture?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q5vGcpx1sY

37818
04-04-2017, 12:14 PM
The reason that every person throughout humanity does get SAVED is because Jesus paid the punishment (or penalty) in full for all of humanity, and so not even one (1) sinful sheep will remain lost or left out.

Every claim contrary to that simple truth is just human fear and confusion and absurdities.

We are to love our enemies just as God loves His enemies = Matthew 5:43-48 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A43-48&version=KJV), and love does not burn people in torment and there is no place of Hell (http://www.heavennet.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/hellfire-1000x480.jpg).

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

Alright. On the premise what you understand about this is true. What difference does it make that everyone else makes claims to contrary? It will not change the truth. Now on the other hand your view if false: It condemns the lost by causing them to miss the real good news which must be accepted (2 Thessalonians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

Christianbookworm
04-04-2017, 12:20 PM
Indeed. If universalism were true, there'd be no need to try to convince others that it's true. If it's false, then it's a dangerous heresy.

James Cusick
04-04-2017, 12:37 PM
:blush: First I have to say that I am not very fast or efficient at making my comments or postings and I am on a PC and do not use my phone for the internet, and I have a book club tonight and other things to do so I will reply to everyone as soon or as effectively as I can, but I do not want anyone to think that I am cast off or rejected when I am not.

I will always be back tomorrow at some time of day - unless my internet goes down or some other diversion.
:blush:

-----------------------------


There are humans who are like those feral cats in that they would not want to be saved. For God to save them against their will would be like keeping a wild animal as a pet.
That is giving too much power to the human will, when a person is a lost soul then they have a very weak will, and so yes God will save them against their puny will.

On the Judgement Day then every person will become a believer and a repentant and Jesus already paid for their sins.



And what about those who committed untypeable(I'd say unspeakable, but I'm typing and not speaking, so...) acts? Shouldn't there be justice for their victims? Why should they get to go to the same place as an innocent baby when they are unrepentant jerks?
Jesus said not - Jesus said those who work all day get a penny and those who did very little get the same penny.

There is no distinction between sinners, as big sinners and small sinners - because all fall short and all are guilty, and so forgiveness is for everyone.

True justice is based on mercy.

------------------------------------


Pretty much Meh Gerbil is right. You can't really debate with nutjobs that just throw out any evidence that they are wrong and quote-mine the bible to claim they are right. They are not reasonable or open to logic.
If you do not see it as fitting to discuss it with me then do not, why must you try to derail the topic?

I welcome any so called nutjob to talk to me and I will be respectful to everyone.

James Cusick
04-04-2017, 12:49 PM
No, it was absolutely true.
People cannot just 'kinda' disobey God.
There would be no need for the cross were it not for serious trespass.
You are correct that the cross is needed for serious and for petty trespasses,

and Jesus paid in full on that cross.



Hell is a translation of three different words, one of the words being 'Hades' but another popular one being 'Gehenna', a reference to the dump outside Jerusalem.
Regardless, it was addressed as a real place that would be inhabited - and you have to deal with that.
The dump outside of Jerusalem is not the so called eternal torment in a Hell.

You need to deal with that.

The word Hades was a Greek God from the Greek religion about people punished in the underworld - and Jesus did not preach the Greek religion.



This hand waving is not acceptable.
In some cases hand waving is the best response possible.


Shouldn't you be stocking up on ammo?
It is not right to assist those who do not want to discuss the topic, and just help them to derail a topic.

That one has no ammo for a realistic discussion for this topic.

JimL
04-04-2017, 12:55 PM
The reason that every person throughout humanity does get SAVED is because Jesus paid the punishment (or penalty) in full for all of humanity, and so not even one (1) sinful sheep will remain lost or left out.

Every claim contrary to that simple truth is just human fear and confusion and absurdities.

We are to love our enemies just as God loves His enemies = Matthew 5:43-48 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A43-48&version=KJV), and love does not burn people in torment and there is no place of Hell (http://www.heavennet.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/hellfire-1000x480.jpg).

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

Then what's the whole point?

James Cusick
04-04-2017, 01:08 PM
Alright. On the premise what you understand about this is true. What difference does it make that everyone else makes claims to contrary? It will not change the truth. Now on the other hand your view if false: It condemns the lost by causing them to miss the real good news which must be accepted (2 Thessalonians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
The premises (my reason) would be that I do not like those others who preach fear and preach slander against God, and if I believe other people to be sincere as I am then I want to know the truth and so I am doing them a favor by telling this message to correct my worldly brothers and sisters.

If I were on the Titanic (http://www.maritimequest.com/liners/titanic/photos/art/11_titanic.jpg) and I was able to save myself, then I believe I have an obligation to go back and help save the others less fortunate.

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

---------------------------


Indeed. If universalism were true, there'd be no need to try to convince others that it's true. If it's false, then it's a dangerous heresy.
It is true, and yet I agree about having no real need to convince others, and I am not out preaching to others or from the roof tops, but this here is a discussion forum so to discuss it here seems appropriate.

Otherwise if some fools or barbarians will act better out of their fear of Hell then there is no need for me to convince them otherwise.

:ale:

James Cusick
04-04-2017, 01:10 PM
Then what's the whole point?
The point is for God to raise His children into Gods.

To give birth to the children of God.

Christianbookworm
04-04-2017, 01:12 PM
The point is for God to raise His children into Gods.

To give birth to the children of God.

Isn't it the Mormons that have the infinite regress of gods and human aliens?

JimL
04-04-2017, 01:16 PM
The point is for God to raise His children into Gods.

To give birth to the children of God.
But if God himself has to end up "burning away their sins", then the whole "raising his children" idea is silly.

Sparko
04-04-2017, 01:17 PM
The premises (my reason) would be that I do not like those others who preach fear and preach slander against God, and if I believe other people to be sincere as I am then I want to know the truth and so I am doing them a favor by telling this message to correct my worldly brothers and sisters.

If I were on the Titanic (http://www.maritimequest.com/liners/titanic/photos/art/11_titanic.jpg) and I was able to save myself, then I believe I have an obligation to go back and help save the others less fortunate.



Let's go with that analogy. We know that not everyone on the Titanic was saved, only those that got into the lifeboats. Now suppose you went around telling everyone not to worry that they were all safe! No need to run to the lifeboats, because the Titanic was not sinking after all and they would not be drowned.

That is what you are doing. You are telling everyone that they don't have to do anything and they are safe from hell. Go on murdering, killing, stealing. It doesn't matter because they are saved regardless! No need to repent! No need to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior! Just go about their lives and they will end up in heaven. If people believe you and you are wrong, you are basically condemning people to hell who might have been saved, and definitely making sure that some people who might have accepted Jesus and been better people, instead keep on being selfish and evil.

Nice work!

Christianbookworm
04-04-2017, 01:18 PM
But if God himself has to end up "burning away their sins", then the whole "raising his children" idea is silly.

Maybe he thinks God will just put the naughty wittle humans in their time out crates and then give them treats when they behave? We aren't spoiled lap dogs!

Meh Gerbil
04-04-2017, 01:34 PM
The premises (my reason) would be that I do not like those others who preach fear and preach slander against God, and if I believe other people to be sincere as I am then I want to know the truth and so I am doing them a favor by telling this message to correct my worldly brothers and sisters. Otherwise if some fools or barbarians will act better out of their fear of Hell then there is no need for me to convince them otherwise.
Here we have some agreement.

The message of Jesus Christ is one of hope and forgiveness and that is the message that should be preached. Yes, it is true that many preachers slander God by attributing to Him actions/motivations which are unjust - the gospel isn't about fear but to hear some preachers one would think otherwise. That said, it is sin that brings death and separation from God (and not God Himself) so to the extent that you're tossing out the consequences of sin in an effort to defend God would be the extent to which I'd consider you wrong.

The consequences of sin and death are real - the error is attributing them to God - the solution isn't pretending they don't exist.

Littlejoe
04-04-2017, 01:46 PM
It is true, and yet I agree about having no real need to convince others, and I am not out preaching to others or from the roof tops, but this here is a discussion forum so to discuss it here seems appropriate.

Otherwise if some fools or barbarians will act better out of their fear of Hell then there is no need for me to convince them otherwise.

:ale:Romans 10 pretty much blows this premise out of the water. The Apostle Paul felt it VERY important to "convince others"...

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

It clearly says that the ones who will be saved are those "...who call on him."

Cerebrum123
04-04-2017, 01:46 PM
All of those are misguided and misinterpretations.

The old Greek word for Hell was Hades from the old Greek religion, and Hades was the God of the underworld.

The Gospel is written in the old Greek language yes, but Jesus did not preach the Greek religion.

The word Hades was also used as a term for the underworld or afterlife. Jesus most certainly did teach about the afterlife, and about rewards and punishments. In 2 Peter Tartarus is specifically mentioned(although often translated as "hell"), which was the Greek version of what people today call Hell. Elysium was their version of "Heaven". Sharing certain concepts doesn't require sharing theology. Just like Muslims have their version of Heaven where good Muslim men get at least 72 virgins. As well as their own version of hell, which is extremely similar to Dante's Inferno.

Bisto
04-04-2017, 01:52 PM
Indeed. If universalism were true, there'd be no need to try to convince others that it's true. If it's false, then it's a dangerous heresy.
Pascal would be proud.
:outtie:

37818
04-04-2017, 01:53 PM
The premises (my reason) would be that I do not like those others who preach fear and preach slander against God, and if I believe other people to be sincere as I am then I want to know the truth and so I am doing them a favor by telling this message to correct my worldly brothers and sisters.

If I were on the Titanic (http://www.maritimequest.com/liners/titanic/photos/art/11_titanic.jpg) and I was able to save myself, then I believe I have an obligation to go back and help save the others less fortunate.

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

--------------------------

The apostle Paul warns, ". . . For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. . ." -- 2 Corinthians 5:10-11.

JimL
04-04-2017, 01:59 PM
The apostle Paul warns, ". . . For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. . ." -- 2 Corinthians 5:10-11.
Yeah, the bible says a lot of things, a lot of conflicting things and a lot of silly things, which is why believers all seem to believe different things.

Littlejoe
04-04-2017, 02:04 PM
Yeah, the bible says a lot of things, a lot of conflicting things and a lot of silly things, which is why believers all seem to believe different things.
Jim,
This is a theist only area. If you do not have permission to post here from the OP and the mod staff, you will have to cease posting.

:littlejoe:

rogue06
04-04-2017, 02:08 PM
21742




















Somebody had to do it

Bisto
04-04-2017, 02:12 PM
Romans 10 pretty much blows this premise out of the water. The Apostle Paul felt it VERY important to "convince others"...

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

It clearly says that the ones who will be saved are those "...who call on him."
He has said he believes nonbelievers will repent at or around Final Judgement, if I understood him correctly. Under that model, I guess he'd say they would "call on him" then.


@JC:

Last time I discussed with an Universalist years ago, one of the points I made and which I think is important has to do with Repentance. Salvation comes about through repentance and faith (I think we can all agree that both of those can only come about by the grace of God).

The Universalist I discussed with believed that the Lake of Fire/Gehenna/"Hell" as orthodox Christianity understands it, was a place of 'purifying fire' and that people who end up there --Satan included-- would eventually repent, and therefore be saved in the end. To him, my basic reply was that he was ignoring the basic significance of Judgment Day, and all the passages that convey the 'ultimateness' of the judgment/hell/shame/destruction/whatever.

You, on the other hand, seem to believe they will repent on Judgment Day itself. What, then, do you make of passages that affirm that some WILL be judged unfavorably -- e.g. some people will go to Jesus' proverbial left hand, names not found on the book of life, enemies of YHWH finally shamed, carcasses outside, dogs outside, etc.?

mossrose
04-04-2017, 02:15 PM
Oh, another universalist. Well, what about the folk who don't want to be saved? Forcing them to be in God's presence would still be hell for them. Keep in mind that I believe hell is a state of shame and not a place of fire and torture.

I agree with this except for the last statement.

Littlejoe
04-04-2017, 02:17 PM
He has said he believes nonbelievers will repent at or around Final Judgement, if I understood him correctly. Under that model, I guess he'd say they would "call on him" then.

Oh I know...this isn't my first universalist rodeo...and like Gerbz, I'm sympathetic to the view, but it doesn't stand up to scriptural scrutiny. It simply doesn't explain why Paul makes the statement I quoted. There's no need for Paul and all the other Apostles (except John of course) to die for the Gospel if there's no reason to preach the Gospel. Rather silly to decide to die for the Gospel when it's utterly pointless wouldn't you say?

Bisto
04-04-2017, 02:24 PM
Oh I know...this isn't my first universalist rodeo...and like Gerbz, I'm sympathetic to the view, but it doesn't stand up to scriptural scrutiny. It simply doesn't explain why Paul makes the statement I quoted. There's no need for Paul and all the other Apostles (except John of course) to die for the Gospel if there's no reason to preach the Gospel. Rather silly to decide to die for the Gospel when it's utterly pointless wouldn't you say?
Yup. I guess I was just nitpicking and saving one round of this to get to the core more quickly :p

Trout
04-04-2017, 02:51 PM
That one has no ammo for a realistic discussion for this topic.

James, I'm avoiding piling on, you can thank me later. It seems as though you have enough to address which you have yet to do in a realistic manner.

37818
04-05-2017, 05:42 AM
Romans 10 pretty much blows this premise out of the water. The Apostle Paul felt it VERY important to "convince others"...

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

It clearly says that the ones who will be saved are those "...who call on him."Yes.

It needs to be further pointed out,

it explicitly says "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed?" And, "For with the heart one believes and is justified, . . ." One is saved by God's grace provided by the finished work of Christ "through faith" in Him (Ephesians 2:8; John 5:24).

37818
04-05-2017, 06:04 AM
<snip> . . . Keep in mind that I believe hell is a state of shame and not a place of fire and torture.

". . . in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, . . . I am tormented in this flame. . . . I pray thee therefore, father [Abraham], that thou wouldest send him [Lazarus in Abraham's arms] to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. . . ." -- Luke 16:19-31.

Moses wrote what God said: ". . . For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . ." -- Deuteronomy 32:22.

James Cusick
04-05-2017, 07:15 AM
But if God himself has to end up "burning away their sins", then the whole "raising his children" idea is silly.
It might be childish but I do not see it as silly, and we people who do the sins are the ones who are being childish.

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

When raising children and the child gets low grades in school or they can not stand up against the bullies - then the parents raise the child through their difficulties.

James Cusick
04-05-2017, 07:24 AM
Let's go with that analogy. We know that not everyone on the Titanic was saved, only those that got into the lifeboats. Now suppose you went around telling everyone not to worry that they were all safe! No need to run to the lifeboats, because the Titanic was not sinking after all and they would not be drowned.

That is what you are doing. You are telling everyone that they don't have to do anything and they are safe from hell. Go on murdering, killing, stealing. It doesn't matter because they are saved regardless! No need to repent! No need to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior! Just go about their lives and they will end up in heaven. If people believe you and you are wrong, you are basically condemning people to hell who might have been saved, and definitely making sure that some people who might have accepted Jesus and been better people, instead keep on being selfish and evil.

Nice work!
That is because there are two (2) kinds of salvation = a physical salvation in this life, and the spiritual salvation after death.

The spiritual salvation is already paid in full by Jesus so every person throughout humanity gets saved after death.

But the physical salvation here on earth means being saved from such things as from addiction, saved from ignorance and despair, saved from violence and cruelty, saved from suffering and disease and crime, etc etc etc.

If one accepts the fact that they are saved after death - then if they start sinning by murder or stealing or lies then they will "reap as ye sow" by having a troubled conscience and by the Police who will prosecute any criminal.

There is justice in this world and in this life time, and later after death comes mercy and forgiveness.

James Cusick
04-05-2017, 07:30 AM
Here we have some agreement.

The message of Jesus Christ is one of hope and forgiveness and that is the message that should be preached. Yes, it is true that many preachers slander God by attributing to Him actions/motivations which are unjust - the gospel isn't about fear but to hear some preachers one would think otherwise.
:yipee:


That said, it is sin that brings death and separation from God (and not God Himself) so to the extent that you're tossing out the consequences of sin in an effort to defend God would be the extent to which I'd consider you wrong.

The consequences of sin and death are real - the error is attributing them to God - the solution isn't pretending they don't exist.
REPEAT:
That is because there are two (2) kinds of salvation = a physical salvation in this life, and the spiritual salvation after death.

The spiritual salvation is already paid in full by Jesus so every person throughout humanity gets saved after death.

But the physical salvation here on earth means being saved from such things as from addiction, saved from ignorance and despair, saved from violence and cruelty, saved from suffering and disease and crime, etc etc etc.

If one accepts the fact that they are saved after death - then if they start sinning by murder or stealing or lies then they will "reap as ye sow (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+6%3A7-8&version=KJV)" by having a troubled conscience and by the Police who will prosecute any criminal.

There is justice in this world and in this life time, and later after death comes mercy and forgiveness.

James Cusick
04-05-2017, 07:32 AM
Romans 10 pretty much blows this premise out of the water. The Apostle Paul felt it VERY important to "convince others"...

...

It clearly says that the ones who will be saved are those "...who call on him."
REPEAT:
That is because there are two (2) kinds of salvation = a physical salvation in this life, and the spiritual salvation after death.

The spiritual salvation is already paid in full by Jesus so every person throughout humanity gets saved after death.

But the physical salvation here on earth means being saved from such things as from addiction, saved from ignorance and despair, saved from violence and cruelty, saved from suffering and disease and crime, etc etc etc.

If one accepts the fact that they are saved after death - then if they start sinning by murder or stealing or lies then they will "reap as ye sow" by having a troubled conscience and by the Police who will prosecute any criminal.

There is justice in this world and in this life time, and later after death comes mercy and forgiveness.

James Cusick
04-05-2017, 07:42 AM
The word Hades was also used as a term for the underworld or afterlife.
In the Greek language yes, and in the Greek religion yes, but in English the word Hades simply means the grave for deceased dead bodies.

As does the English word "hell" meant the grave for the dead.



Jesus most certainly did teach about the afterlife, and about rewards and punishments.
Yes Jesus taught about the forgiveness of sins and of paying the full penalty on the cross.

In this world and in this life we suffer the sins, but after death comes salvation to all.



In 2 Peter Tartarus is specifically mentioned(although often translated as "hell"), which was the Greek version of what people today call Hell. Elysium was their version of "Heaven". Sharing certain concepts doesn't require sharing theology. Just like Muslims have their version of Heaven where good Muslim men get at least 72 virgins. As well as their own version of hell, which is extremely similar to Dante's Inferno.
The sacrifice of Jesus paid the penalty for everyone - including the Greeks and the Muslims and every person who ever lived or died.

Even the fallen Angels and Demons get saved through Jesus Christ.

James Cusick
04-05-2017, 07:52 AM
The apostle Paul warns, ". . . For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. . ." -- 2 Corinthians 5:10-11.
I agree with this, that we all need to strive to do right and to serve God, and people do get terrorized so easily, so yes at the Judgement seat of Christ people will be stunned, but at that time everyone will be a believer and everyone will become repentant and as said = "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Romans 14:11

But every human being will have Jesus standing before them as our advocate declaring our sins forgiven and our punishment paid in full.


-------------------------------------


Jim,
This is a theist only area. If you do not have permission to post here from the OP and the mod staff, you will have to cease posting.
If I have any say in it - since I started this thread topic - then I say that person is welcome here as is anyone interested.

This is for the unorthodox.

Sparko
04-05-2017, 08:01 AM
It might be childish but I do not see it as silly, and we people who do the sins are the ones who are being childish.

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

When raising children and the child gets low grades in school or they can not stand up against the bullies - then the parents raise the child through their difficulties.

That is not a passage about the lake of fire. It is an analogy. He is saying that if someone is saved but doesn't do good works, his works will be destroyed but he will still be saved. It is not talking about the lake of fire at all. And it is not talking about all men. But those that are already saved.

Sparko
04-05-2017, 08:04 AM
That is because there are two (2) kinds of salvation = a physical salvation in this life, and the spiritual salvation after death.

The spiritual salvation is already paid in full by Jesus so every person throughout humanity gets saved after death.

But the physical salvation here on earth means being saved from such things as from addiction, saved from ignorance and despair, saved from violence and cruelty, saved from suffering and disease and crime, etc etc etc.

If one accepts the fact that they are saved after death - then if they start sinning by murder or stealing or lies then they will "reap as ye sow" by having a troubled conscience and by the Police who will prosecute any criminal.

There is justice in this world and in this life time, and later after death comes mercy and forgiveness.

As we have said, IF YOU ARE WRONG and those who do not accept Christ as Lord are NOT saved, then by your preaching that they are all saved anyway, you are condemning them to death in hell. Just like if you were on the Titanic and went around preaching that they didn't need to get in the lifeboats. No matter how sincere you are, if you are wrong, you are condemning souls to hell that might have been saved if not for your wrong teaching.

Bill the Cat
04-05-2017, 08:04 AM
If I have any say in it - since I started this thread topic - then I say that person is welcome here as is anyone interested.

This is for the unorthodox.

You have SOME leeway on who you will allow in your thread, but permission must be SPECIFICALLY granted by a moderator and before a post is made.

James Cusick
04-05-2017, 08:06 AM
Last time I discussed with an Universalist years ago, one of the points I made and which I think is important has to do with Repentance. Salvation comes about through repentance and faith (I think we can all agree that both of those can only come about by the grace of God).

The Universalist I discussed with believed that the Lake of Fire/Gehenna/"Hell" as orthodox Christianity understands it, was a place of 'purifying fire' and that people who end up there --Satan included-- would eventually repent, and therefore be saved in the end. To him, my basic reply was that he was ignoring the basic significance of Judgment Day, and all the passages that convey the 'ultimateness' of the judgment/hell/shame/destruction/whatever.

You, on the other hand, seem to believe they will repent on Judgment Day itself. What, then, do you make of passages that affirm that some WILL be judged unfavorably -- e.g. some people will go to Jesus' proverbial left hand, names not found on the book of life, enemies of YHWH finally shamed, carcasses outside, dogs outside, etc.?
My understanding is that we are to use the Bible to give definition and interpretation to itself - the Bible to the Bible.

As such the Bible has a book called Judges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judges), and in that Book of Judges it tells us what the Judges do and about judgements and thereby it tells us what to expect on the Judgement Day.

The Judges and the Judgements were to teach people of their wrongs and to instruct them in doing right, and it was never a Judgement like human Courts where a person is judged as guilty or not guilty.

The human way of Judging it is not the judgement way of God our Father.

------------------------------------


Yes.

It needs to be further pointed out,

it explicitly says "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed?" And, "For with the heart one believes and is justified, . . ." One is saved by God's grace provided by the finished work of Christ "through faith" in Him (Ephesians 2:8; John 5:24).
Jesus does the calling - the people are His defendants.

People are saved by grace - not by calling out or by believing.

Sparko
04-05-2017, 08:13 AM
My understanding is that we are to use the Bible to give definition and interpretation to itself - the Bible to the Bible.

As such the Bible has a book called Judges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judges), and in that Book of Judges it tells us what the Judges do and about judgements and thereby it tells us what to expect on the Judgement Day.

Wait. WHAT?

Have you even read the book of Judges or the Bible? I mean actually read it, like all the way through, and not just a verse here or there to cherry pick for your strange view. Because you are showing that you have absolutely no idea what the bible is about and especially the book of Judges.

Go and read it. I will wait. I don't want to spoil it for you. :ahem:

James Cusick
04-05-2017, 08:16 AM
". . . in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, . . . I am tormented in this flame. . . . I pray thee therefore, father [Abraham], that thou wouldest send him [Lazarus in Abraham's arms] to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. . . ." -- Luke 16:19-31.
That is a parable, and Jesus used the parables so that the sinful blind could not see the real meaning.




Moses wrote what God said: ". . . For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . ." -- Deuteronomy 32:22.
That fire is to clean and purify after death ~ hell (sheol) means the grave.

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)


---------------------------------------


You have SOME leeway on who you will allow in your thread, but permission must be SPECIFICALLY granted by a moderator and before a post is made.
May I seek forgiveness for us both, and plead for clemency?

If just a little leeway.

James Cusick
04-05-2017, 01:45 PM
As we have said, IF YOU ARE WRONG and those who do not accept Christ as Lord are NOT saved, then by your preaching that they are all saved anyway, you are condemning them to death in hell. Just like if you were on the Titanic and went around preaching that they didn't need to get in the lifeboats. No matter how sincere you are, if you are wrong, you are condemning souls to hell that might have been saved if not for your wrong teaching.
That perspective of belief is a huge mistake by most Christians and I am long past that.

Jesus tells people to believe and be saved, but that belief is meant to just be the doorway and not the destination.

After we first believe then we are to step inside the door and our belief grows into certainty and it is no longer a belief but to know.

Christopher Columbus believed the earth was round, but after sailing the ocean then Columbus knew the truth.

The same with me in that I do not say that I believe that there is no such place as hell - because I know there is not.

I know that God is love, who even loves His enemies, and I know that decent human beings would never accept other people in torment, and I know that the scriptures do not teach such a horrible doctrine of inhumanity as is the Hell doctrine.

So no - it is not a matter that I might be wrong.

And just for the record - if I were wrong - then I would go to the Hell with my fellow sinners - and I would rebel against the evil monster of a God.

If any person was in a place like Hell then would any of you seek to rescue them? I would try to rescue any of you.

37818
04-05-2017, 02:00 PM
That is a parable, and Jesus used the parables so that the sinful blind could not see the real meaning.Two issues: Since when is Abraham, Moses and the Prophets in a parable? And what evidence that telling was a parable?




That fire is to clean and purify after death ~ hell (sheol) means the grave.Ah, so graves have fire in them.

Bill the Cat
04-06-2017, 05:24 AM
That perspective of belief is a huge mistake by most Christians and I am long past that.

Jesus tells people to believe and be saved, but that belief is meant to just be the doorway and not the destination.

After we first believe then we are to step inside the door and our belief grows into certainty and it is no longer a belief but to know.

Christopher Columbus believed the earth was round, but after sailing the ocean then Columbus knew the truth.

The same with me in that I do not say that I believe that there is no such place as hell - because I know there is not.

I know that God is love, who even loves His enemies, and I know that decent human beings would never accept other people in torment, and I know that the scriptures do not teach such a horrible doctrine of inhumanity as is the Hell doctrine.

So no - it is not a matter that I might be wrong.

And just for the record - if I were wrong - then I would go to the Hell with my fellow sinners - and I would rebel against the evil monster of a God.

If any person was in a place like Hell then would any of you seek to rescue them? I would try to rescue any of you.

21752

James Cusick
04-06-2017, 05:30 AM
So maybe now it is down to just you and I to discuss this topic. ~ Mosheim, TN 37818

Two issues: Since when is Abraham, Moses and the Prophets in a parable? And what evidence that telling was a parable?
We can see that it is a parable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_man_and_Lazarus) because it is a story just like the other parables.

As like the parable of the wedding party was not a story of a real wedding.

When Jesus is recorded as NOT speaking a parable then Jesus speaks very precisely, as like Jesus said to "bless this" and "bless that" and He said to do this and do not that.

Plus if we accept the literal interpretation of that story then that message would contradict the other clearly worded instructions from Jesus about love and forgiveness and of charity to all.

As like where Jesus says to "Love thy enemies" Matthew 5:43-48 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A43-48&version=KJV), because Jesus explains this doctrine in specific details, so this kind of speech to love thy enemy is no parable.

Another BIG point is that if Jesus were really preaching that horrific message as from the Greek Hades (https://www.greekmythology.com/Olympians/Hades/hades.html), then Jesus would have had an obligation to speak it plainly, as like saying = I tell thee all that if ye do not do as I say then God will burn ye all in the fires of my Hell forever and I Jesus can not or will not save thee from that.

Jesus never said any such doctrine as that, and in fact He preached the exact opposite by preaching the forgiveness of sins.

If that place of Hell (http://www.heavennet.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/hellfire-1000x480.jpg) were true then it needed to be said straight and blunt and clear, and then it would need to be said again in each Epistle from each Disciple or Apostle that we must do as we are told or else burn for all eternity in torture, and that kind of message must not be told in some vague parable or clever story or left for us to interpret that from the Greek words.

What the Bible does teach clearly is declared by Jesus when He says this:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
KJV ~ Mark 12:28-34 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12%3A28-34&version=KJV)

Jesus teaches the very opposite of any Hell, as in Jesus paid the punishment for all sins paid in full for every person, that not even one sinful sheep would be lost or left out, that God loves enemies, God loves sinners, God loves humanity, God loves the world (John 3:16), and none of those are contradicted.



Ah, so graves have fire in them.
From the old (elder) Testament through the New (newer) Testament the word "fire" is used for cleaning and purifying and that "fire" is a blessing from God.

So even if fire was a cursing then God is using it to chastise those He loves, and not to torture God's enemies.

37818
04-06-2017, 06:41 AM
I hold the view point the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable.

I hold the view point that on account that Christ died for all (2 Corinthians 5:14-15) that He paid for the sins of all mankind. So I hold the view that everyone's name is in the Book of Life.

Names get blotted out (Revelation 20:15; Revelation 21:8; Revelation 21:1, 27; Psalm 69:27-28).

I hold the view that Christ is the true vine (John 15:1). And that everyone is in the vine by reason Christ died for everyone. Those who do not remain in Him are removed (John 15:2, 6; 2 John 9; John 8:24).

I hold the view point that Christ having died for everyone will either be their Savior or their condemning Judge (Romans 14:9-11). The living are the saved the dead are the lost.

If God after all is said in the Holy Scriptures, restores everyone, the Holy Scriptures do not tell me this.

Sparko
04-06-2017, 06:43 AM
Another BIG point is that if Jesus were really preaching that horrific message as from the Greek Hades (https://www.greekmythology.com/Olympians/Hades/hades.html), then Jesus would have had an obligation to speak it plainly, as like saying = I tell thee all that if ye do not do as I say then God will burn ye all in the fires of my Hell forever and I Jesus can not or will not save thee from that.

You mean like:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 23:33
You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Philippians 1:28
This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.

Littlejoe
04-06-2017, 06:43 AM
REPEAT:
That is because there are two (2) kinds of salvation = a physical salvation in this life, and the spiritual salvation after death.

The spiritual salvation is already paid in full by Jesus so every person throughout humanity gets saved after death.

But the physical salvation here on earth means being saved from such things as from addiction, saved from ignorance and despair, saved from violence and cruelty, saved from suffering and disease and crime, etc etc etc.

If one accepts the fact that they are saved after death - then if they start sinning by murder or stealing or lies then they will "reap as ye sow" by having a troubled conscience and by the Police who will prosecute any criminal.

There is justice in this world and in this life time, and later after death comes mercy and forgiveness.Well, you are wrong. There is no salvation after death. Please provide scriptural support for this view.

Thanks.

Jedidiah
04-06-2017, 10:02 AM
James, Christians will use the Bible as support for their beliefs. While we do not agree on every detail 100% we do see it as authoritative. You seem to base your arguments on assertions, and you pick and choose what Bible teachings to accept and which to "reinterpret" to suit yourself.

Sparko
04-06-2017, 10:07 AM
James, Christians will use the Bible as support for their beliefs. While we do not agree on every detail 100% we do see it as authoritative. You seem to base your arguments on assertions, and you pick and choose what Bible teachings to accept and which to "reinterpret" to suit yourself.

he is starting to remind me of Mickiel. If he starts worrying about page views...

rogue06
04-06-2017, 11:34 AM
he is starting to remind me of Mickiel. If he starts worrying about page views...
Grow thread grow.

Bill the Cat
04-06-2017, 11:36 AM
21771

rogue06
04-06-2017, 11:48 AM
21771
More suitable for Mickey since he walked in the darkness


21772

James Cusick
04-07-2017, 07:50 AM
I hold the view point the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable.

I hold the view point that on account that Christ died for all (2 Corinthians 5:14-15) that He paid for the sins of all mankind. So I hold the view that everyone's name is in the Book of Life.

Names get blotted out (Revelation 20:15; Revelation 21:8; Revelation 21:1, 27; Psalm 69:27-28).

I hold the view that Christ is the true vine (John 15:1). And that everyone is in the vine by reason Christ died for everyone. Those who do not remain in Him are removed (John 15:2, 6; 2 John 9; John 8:24).

I hold the view point that Christ having died for everyone will either be their Savior or their condemning Judge (Romans 14:9-11). The living are the saved the dead are the lost.

If God after all is said in the Holy Scriptures, restores everyone, the Holy Scriptures do not tell me this.
I see you are defensive and you have up your guard, and of course no one can get past your self defense.

So that puts you and I at a stand still, and there is no more to say between you and I.

I like to discuss the subject yes, but I do not want to attack your faith.


----------------------------------------------


Well, you are wrong. There is no salvation after death. Please provide scriptural support for this view.

Thanks.
There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary.

That therefore is at least one example of salvation coming after death.

There are two (2) kinds of salvation, being the physical salvation from sin here on earth, and later the spiritual salvation after death which Jesus has already paid for in full.

James Cusick
04-07-2017, 07:51 AM
21771
I love that.

A lone ranger walking alone.

Just as did by Jesus to the cross.

James Cusick
04-07-2017, 08:00 AM
You mean like:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 23:33
You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Philippians 1:28
This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.
Jesus was preaching about salvation from death and the grave.

The thing is that you know just as we all know that the Greek word "Hades" means the grave and the English word "hell" means the grave too, and yet here you are again passing it off as a burning torment from God which it is not.

That is like preaching Santa Claus when we all know that it is not true.

Who are you trying to fool? but your self.

And above you use the word DESTROY (destroyed) as if that too means burning in torment, and to destroy does not mean burning in any such place as a Hell.

People get destroyed in the grave, and Jesus taught a message about being saved from death and from the grave called salvation.

Sparko
04-07-2017, 08:35 AM
Jesus was preaching about salvation from death and the grave.

The thing is that you know just as we all know that the Greek word "Hades" means the grave and the English word "hell" means the grave too, and yet here you are again passing it off as a burning torment from God which it is not.

That is like preaching Santa Claus when we all know that it is not true.

Who are you trying to fool? but your self.

And above you use the word DESTROY (destroyed) as if that too means burning in torment, and to destroy does not mean burning in any such place as a Hell.

People get destroyed in the grave, and Jesus taught a message about being saved from death and from the grave called salvation.

You are determined to twist the scripture to mean what you want it to mean instead of what it plainly says. You condemn yourself and drag down others with you.

And the word used there is "gehenna" which is a representation of the eternal torment of hell. not the grave. Why would your soul be in the grave?

Sparko
04-07-2017, 08:39 AM
James, from your posts it has become clear that you are not very familiar with the bible. You seem to just make claims based on things that you read about the bible elsewhere. I urge you to actually READ the bible in full. Your eyes will be opened.

For example:


There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary.

Can you quote the verse(s) for me that say this?

James Cusick
04-07-2017, 08:59 AM
And the word used there is "gehenna" which is a representation of the eternal torment of hell. not the grave. Why would your soul be in the grave?
You and we all know about the word "Gehenna" too, about it being a dump site outside of Jerusalem.

It is not some place of torment as told in the Greek religion of Hades or Hell.

In old English as the King's English as like in the KJV - the word soul just means persons or body, as like 1500 souls went down in the Titanic.

TheWall
04-07-2017, 09:14 AM
Look up the book shades of sheol or watch the video jp made about king James and hell. Hell did not suddenly emerge out of nowhere.

Sparko
04-07-2017, 09:18 AM
You and we all know about the word "Gehenna" too, about it being a dump site outside of Jerusalem.

It is not some place of torment as told in the Greek religion of Hades or Hell.

In old English as the King's English as like in the KJV - the word soul just means persons or body, as like 1500 souls went down in the Titanic.

It was used to represent the place of damnation. Do you really think they thought that the evil would be tormented in a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem? The use of the word Gehenna was a visual analogy to where the sinners would be condemned to after judgment. A cursory reading of the New Testament will show you that.

And no, Soul does not mean Body.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Do you think he was saying "destroy both body and body in hell?"


Again, Jim, READ THE BIBLE. Just read it. What are you afraid of?

Sparko
04-07-2017, 09:19 AM
James, from your posts it has become clear that you are not very familiar with the bible. You seem to just make claims based on things that you read about the bible elsewhere. I urge you to actually READ the bible in full. Your eyes will be opened.

For example:


There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary.

Can you quote the verse(s) for me that say this?

James? still waiting.

37818
04-07-2017, 10:38 AM
I see you are defensive and you have up your guard, and of course no one can get past your self defense.

So that puts you and I at a stand still, and there is no more to say between you and I.

I like to discuss the subject yes, but I do not want to attack your faith.
Discussing the subject and points of disagreement is not to be taken as personal attacks.

For example: ". . . every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God. . . ." -- Romans 14:11.

You seem to believe that means everyone will be saved, after all is said and done.
I am of the point of view that both the saved and the lost will do this.

Jesus made it clear not everyone who confess Him as Lord will be saved, ". . . Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; . . . then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. . . ." -- Matthew 7:21-23.

Bisto
04-07-2017, 09:25 PM
Discussing the subject and points of disagreement is not to be taken as personal attacks.

For example: ". . . every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God. . . ." -- Romans 14:11.

You seem to believe that means everyone will be saved, after all is said and done.
I am of the point of view that both the saved and the lost will do this.

Jesus made it clear not everyone who confess Him as Lord will be saved, ". . . Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; . . . then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. . . ." -- Matthew 7:21-23.
A POSSIBLE example of what you are saying here would be the reaction of demon-possessed people to Jesus in the Gospels. Their actions could be vaguely paraphrased as bending the knee and confessing His authority and identity as Son of God, but this hardly meant the demons were now in a right relationship with God again.


Besides, the whole scene of the passages in question (Phil 2, Rom 14) comes from Isaiah 45, where YHWH is saying that, in the future, everyone will bend the knee and confess His name -- and after that, those who were angry at Him will be put to shame (v.24), sort of implying that SOME of the people who did the previous action would be punished somehow afterwards.

One might add that the latter part of this passage, if this is indeed talking of Final Judgement (which Rom 14 and Phil 2 seem to mean), would fit nicely with a Hell-as-shame paradigm.

@JC

James Cusick
04-08-2017, 06:17 AM
James? still waiting.
Here is a specific text - and it is just one of many:

~ 1 Timothy 2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+2%3A3-7&version=KJV):
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
---

See how it says "all" and not some, as in every person being saved, and Jesus Himself as the mediator (intermediary) for all.

Of course you did not really need to wait for me to tell you this.

-----------------------------------------



Look up the book shades of sheol or watch the video jp made about king James and hell. Hell did not suddenly emerge out of nowhere.
The Bible is the final authority.

There is no book or video to tell us what is not said in the plain and clear text of the Bible.

James Cusick
04-08-2017, 06:30 AM
Discussing the subject and points of disagreement is not to be taken as personal attacks.
I did not say personal attacks.

I said that I do not attack a person's faith.

So if you are determined to hold onto the barbaric concept of burning people in a fiery Hell as part of your faith ~ then so be it.



For example: ". . . every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God. . . ." -- Romans 14:11.

You seem to believe that means everyone will be saved, after all is said and done.
I am of the point of view that both the saved and the lost will do this.

Jesus made it clear not everyone who confess Him as Lord will be saved, ". . . Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; . . . then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. . . ." -- Matthew 7:21-23.
After that comes the "Lake of Fire" to clean and purify the most rebellious of souls:

The scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person, as done in the "Lake of Fire".

See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

Sparko
04-08-2017, 06:31 AM
Here is a specific text - and it is just one of many:

~ 1 Timothy 2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+2%3A3-7&version=KJV):
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
---

See how it says "all" and not some, as in every person being saved, and Jesus Himself as the mediator (intermediary) for all.

Of course you did not really need to wait for me to tell you this.

-----------------------------------------



The Bible is the final authority.

There is no book or video to tell us what is not said in the plain and clear text of the Bible.

first of all, you are cherry picking an old english translation that cloaks the true meaning of the verse, which is that God would like all men to be saved. it does not say that all men will be saved. men have free will and can reject God.

second it doesnt say anything about "There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary." which is what you claimed. where is the judgment seat mentioned?

and if everyone is saved why is there a judgment seat?

Bisto
04-08-2017, 06:48 AM
@JC:

Hi man. Before you quote 1 Cor 3:15 again as if it proved your point by itself, could you please quote it in context and explain how your interpretation of it (i.e. relating it to the Lake of Fire as a purification for the wicked, broadly speaking) fits in the flow of the passage? Can you show the passage is talking about the wicked, for example?

I'm sure you already know the other way to interpret it, but for the sake of transparency let's just say that it's much easier to understand the passage as Paul talking of what believers do in this life for the edification of the Church, and whether that work is worthwhile and caused actual strengthening of the Building being edified (that is, the Church) or not. If what you did was a lasting blessing, so to speak, you'll be rewarded; on the other hand, if what you did amounted to nothing of substance (and trial will tell whether it was), then you'll get no extra reward, though you'll still be saved (because Paul's been talking about believers the whole way!), like a man who is saved from a fire although he carries none of his possessions with him. This whole point fits in his current discourse towards the Corinthians about Paul's and Apollo's and any other ministers's work in Corinth.

The above, more or less, is the more usual interpretation, if I'm not mistaken (please, let anyone correct me on this or complement it as they wish). Can you show why your point about the Lake of Fire makes more sense in the context of Paul's discussion in and around 1 Cor 3?

Bisto
04-08-2017, 07:00 AM
first of all, you are cherry picking an old english translation that cloaks the true meaning of the verse, which is that God would like all men to be saved. it does not say that all men will be saved. men have free will and can reject God.

second it doesnt say anything about "There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary." which is what you claimed. where is the judgment seat mentioned?

and if everyone is saved why is there a judgment seat?
Yeah, I thought the Gospel said Jesus will be Judge as established by God? :wink: After all, the Apostles preach this as part of the Kerigma in Acts 10:42 and 17:30-31. Jesus more or less says the same at John 5:21-29 and Mt 25:31-46. Paul alludes to it at Rom 2:5-16, 14:9-12; 2 Cor 5:10; and 2 Tim 4:1.

Sparko
04-08-2017, 07:18 AM
Yeah, I thought the Gospel said Jesus will be Judge as established by God? :wink: After all, the Apostles preach this as part of the Kerigma in Acts 10:42 and 17:30-31. Jesus more or less says the same at John 5:21-29 and Mt 25:31-46. Paul alludes to it at Rom 2:5-16, 14:9-12; 2 Cor 5:10; and 2 Tim 4:1.
I get the feeling that James just reads books and websites that feed his already held beliefs, and has never just sat down and read the bible cover to cover. he doesn't seem to know what it actually says in context, and just knows a few cherry picked verses from these sites and books. He is no better educated than most of the fundy atheists we get on this site.

James Cusick
04-08-2017, 12:40 PM
first of all, you are cherry picking an old english translation that cloaks the true meaning of the verse, which is that God would like all men to be saved. it does not say that all men will be saved. men have free will and can reject God.
You are the one "cherry picking" when you say = "God would like all men to be saved. it does not say that all men will be saved."

Most people just give far too much power to their self and it is just egotism to think or to claim that human beings can say "no" to God and that the petty human "no" would then be the deciding factor - which it is not, and no one gets to say no to the will of God.

When people say no and people rebel then we are just saying no to our self and rebelling against our self and our puny words have no effect on the will of God.

It is God's will that all ( all ) people get saved, and that all (all) people come to repentance, see 2 Peter 3:9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3%3A9-10&version=KJV), and the will of God will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

People think that they can tell God no, but it is just being self destructive and fooling thy self.

Any person can have true power in this world but that only happens when the person aligns with the will of God.



second it doesnt say anything about "There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary." which is what you claimed. where is the judgment seat mentioned?
I gave you a text reference which made the point.

If you are only trying to pretend that it does not use the exact same words as I used - then maybe it is time to grow up.

Or just use any internet search engine and find it your self. HERE (http://www.google.com/).



and if everyone is saved why is there a judgment seat?
The Bible says there is to be a Judgement and that is the reason why.

Also - as already said - the Bible book of Judges explains the point and purpose of the Judges and of the judgements and etc.



---------------------------------------------------------



@JC:

Hi man. Before you quote 1 Cor 3:15 again as if it proved your point by itself, could you please quote it in context and explain how your interpretation of it (i.e. relating it to the Lake of Fire as a purification for the wicked, broadly speaking) fits in the flow of the passage? Can you show the passage is talking about the wicked, for example?

I'm sure you already know the other way to interpret it, but for the sake of transparency let's just say that it's much easier to understand the passage as Paul talking of what believers do in this life for the edification of the Church, and whether that work is worthwhile and caused actual strengthening of the Building being edified (that is, the Church) or not. If what you did was a lasting blessing, so to speak, you'll be rewarded; on the other hand, if what you did amounted to nothing of substance (and trial will tell whether it was), then you'll get no extra reward, though you'll still be saved (because Paul's been talking about believers the whole way!), like a man who is saved from a fire although he carries none of his possessions with him. This whole point fits in his current discourse towards the Corinthians about Paul's and Apollo's and any other ministers's work in Corinth.

The above, more or less, is the more usual interpretation, if I'm not mistaken (please, let anyone correct me on this or complement it as they wish). Can you show why your point about the Lake of Fire makes more sense in the context of Paul's discussion in and around 1 Cor 3?
All of this above is complete nonsense trying to divert the truth into absurdity.

Me doing the hand wave = swoosh.

Bisto
04-08-2017, 02:02 PM
All of this above is complete nonsense trying to divert the truth into absurdity.

Me doing the hand wave = swoosh.
Hey, I may speak some nonsense sometimes (just ask anyone else on this thread, they may be so kind as to give you some examples!), but... all of the above? Really? :p

Please explain how you interpret 1 Cor 3:15 in light of its broader context -- what your understanding of it has to do with what comes before it and what comes after it, which are mainly about building on the foundation that is Christ and more broadly addressing the issue of the factions there were in Corinth centered around different leaders (e.g. Paul, Apollos). I may have rambled some nonsense, but I do believe what I said still made some sense and wasn't too far off the usual interpretations I've heard or read of the passage :wink:. (In fact, I'll go as far as to say in my previous post I leaned too much into the passage's application for any believer's life, and didn't emphasize enough that Paul was talking about leaders and teachings mainly.)

I'll put the chapter here in case you haven't read it in full recently.

1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

37818
04-09-2017, 09:56 AM
Here is a specific text - and it is just one of many:

~ 1 Timothy 2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+2%3A3-7&version=KJV):
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
---

See how it says "all" and not some, as in every person being saved, and Jesus Himself as the mediator (intermediary) for all.


Let's look at v.4, ". . . Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. . . ."
:"will have" - θελει - meaning to wish. An intent. Would wish.

2 Peter 3:9, ". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ."
:"willing" - βουλομενος - meaning to prefer. Not preferring.

Titus 2:11, ". . . For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, . . ."

Ezekiel 18:4, . . .32, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . . For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

Revelation 20:14, 15, ". . . death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."




I did not say personal attacks.

I said that I do not attack a person's faith.

That maybe matter of semantics and the meaning you intend. But the words, ". . . I do not attack a person's . . . ." Is not to be personal, is it not? I understood you to claim not to attack one's faith. But by advocating anything in general contrary to a person's faith does attack a person's faith. How can it not?

It is a matter of defending what is true and right, is it not?


So if you are determined to hold onto the barbaric concept of burning people in a fiery Hell as part of your faith ~ then so be it.

But it is a matter what the holy scriptures actually teach, is it not?
Revelation 13: 11, ". . . the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." So our the Lord GOD says, ". . . I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, . . ." (Ezekiel 18:32).



After that comes the "Lake of Fire" to clean and purify the most rebellious of souls:

The scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person, as done in the "Lake of Fire".

See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)No. You conflate the burning of the persons (John 15:6; Revelation 21:8 ) with the burning of persons' works of those who are already saved (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).


The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
And that is only true of those who are born of God (1 John 5:1, 4-5; Revelation 2:11).

The place of the burning of the lost is what has been prepared for Satan, ". . . everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . ." -- Matthew 25:41.

And it is called punishment and its duration is everlasting (Matthew 25:46).

37818
04-09-2017, 06:31 PM
Revelation 13: 11,
Should say,

Revelation 14: 11,

Sparko
04-10-2017, 06:54 AM
You are the one "cherry picking" when you say = "God would like all men to be saved. it does not say that all men will be saved."

Most people just give far too much power to their self and it is just egotism to think or to claim that human beings can say "no" to God and that the petty human "no" would then be the deciding factor - which it is not, and no one gets to say no to the will of God.

Oh sure God can MAKE everyone "saved" but only by taking away their free will. He chooses not to. He wants everyone to be saved but it is up to them. He holds the door open, but you have to walk through it. The bible is clear in many many places that there is a judgment day and that not everyone will be saved. People like you just cherry pick verses that they like and ignore the ones that prove them wrong.






Also - as already said - the Bible book of Judges explains the point and purpose of the Judges and of the judgements and etc.

Have you actually read the book of Judges? because apparently you have not.
The book of Judges is the story of how Israel kept rebelling against God and God appointed Judges to PUNISH THEM.

It has nothing to do with the DAY of Judgment. If everyone is saved then he would not need to judge anyone would he?

Christianbookworm
04-10-2017, 08:03 AM
Oh sure God can MAKE everyone "saved" but only by taking away their free will. He chooses not to. He wants everyone to be saved but it is up to them. He holds the door open, but you have to walk through it. The bible is clear in many many places that there is a judgment day and that not everyone will be saved. People like you just cherry pick verses that they like and ignore the ones that prove them wrong.





Have you actually read the book of Judges? because apparently you have not.
The book of Judges is the story of how Israel kept rebelling against God and God appointed Judges to PUNISH THEM.

It has nothing to do with the DAY of Judgment. If everyone is saved then he would not need to judge anyone would he?

I thought He punished Israel by letting surrounding nations attack them and then sent a judge to save their butts when they finally begged God for help?

Sparko
04-10-2017, 08:19 AM
I thought He punished Israel by letting surrounding nations attack them and then sent a judge to save their butts when they finally begged God for help?

yeah that.

James Cusick
04-10-2017, 08:23 AM
Let's look at v.4, ". . . Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. . . ."
:"will have" - θελει - meaning to wish. An intent. Would wish.

2 Peter 3:9, ". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ."
:"willing" - βουλομενος - meaning to prefer. Not preferring.

Titus 2:11, ". . . For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, . . ."
It repeatedly says it over and over that "all men" to be saved.

Human beings might wish it or hope it but God commands it.

The will of God = will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

You are viewing it as if man (male and female) have a will which is strong against God, and that God's will is not going to be fulfilled, and the exact opposite is the truth.

God's will is for all (for all) to be saved - and it will be done = see the Bible text that you quote above.



Ezekiel 18:4, . . .32, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . . For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

Revelation 20:14, 15, ". . . death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
I realize that orthodox Christianity tries to pretend that "death" and "dying" are synonymous with burning in Hell but that is not true.

The Bible says death and die then it does not mean go to any such place as Hell except that the Hell means the grave.

Death and die go together with the grave.

And as you quote = The soul dies, as in a dead body in the grave (sheol (http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sheol/)).

The death and the second death is explained by the Apostle Paul as death to sin, people die to sin, which is done in the lake of fire where the sins are burned yet the person is saved.

DEATH TO SIN - is the SECOND DEATH for every person.



But it is a matter what the holy scriptures actually teach, is it not?
Revelation 13: 11, ". . . the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." So our the Lord GOD says, ". . . I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, . . ." (Ezekiel 18:32).
It says the "smoke" goes forever and ever, so "smoke" does not mean people or burning souls as smoke just means the smoke.

And even torment does not mean burning or torture as it can mean regrets and sorrow which is to be expected from human sins even after being forgiven.

And again you quote "death" and "dieth" as if that means torture in Hell which it does not.

The first death is the body dies, and the second death means dead to sin.



No. You conflate the burning of the persons (John 15:6; Revelation 21:8 ) with the burning of persons' works of those who are already saved (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

And that is only true of those who are born of God (1 John 5:1, 4-5; Revelation 2:11).
No, truly, if you look honestly it is your self and others who are trying to shut the gates of Heaven to sinners, when Jesus opened the way for all of humanity and beyond.

My way is from the famous saying = Hate the sin but not the sinner.

So yes I see the burning of sins and not the burning of sinners.

And every person throughout humanity are the children of God.



The place of the burning of the lost is what has been prepared for Satan, ". . . everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . ." -- Matthew 25:41.
That is taken from a parable, and it applies to here on earth, as Jesus declares to feed the hungry clothe naked give drink to thirsty:
Matthew 25:
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

You are applying it to after death when Jesus is talking about the here-n-now.

Everlasting fire is a blessing to humans for repentance and forgiveness, because the fire burns the sins and saves the person.



And it is called punishment and its duration is everlasting (Matthew 25:46).
Yes I see punishment and we all reap as we sow for our sins here-n-now, but it is a temporary punishment and not punishing as continual punishing - no.

Jesus paid the penalty (the punishment) in full. Jesus paid for all sins on the cross.

Now the gift of God is forgiveness and mercy and salvation to all.

Bisto
04-10-2017, 11:33 AM
@JC

Hi again. You don't have to reply to this message too (I'm guessing you may have enough posts to reply to as it is), but I am curious. Given your above post describing your understanding of the 'escathological fire' and Second Death and all that (things usually related to Hell), I'd like to ask you, how do you read Isaiah 66:22-24? I suggest you read the whole passage for context (seriously, please do) (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+66&version=NIV), but here's the last three verses, set in the New Creation:

22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Who are 'those who rebelled against Me' in this passage? (v.24)
Who are 'all mankind' in this passage? (v.23, 24)
Who looks on the bodies of 'those who rebelled against Me' in this passage? (v.24)
Whom are 'those who rebelled against Me' loathsome to?* (v.24)
If 'all mankind' here does not, indeed, refer to ALL of mankind, then what could that imply on other instances where such inclusive language is used?

Look, I am not trying to affirm that either (a) the worms are literal or (b) the fire is literal (though from passages like this one, I guess I could). But Jesus did get 'Gehenna' imagery from this passage (e.g. Mark 9), so let's just focus on the people mentioned, and whatever implications that might have... and maybe the fact that the book ends here.


Cheers,

Bisto.


---------
(*): I am not sure if the grammar I used in this question is correct. Sorry. Second language and all.

James Cusick
04-11-2017, 09:20 AM
@JC

Hi again. You don't have to reply to this message too (I'm guessing you may have enough posts to reply to as it is), but I am curious. Given your above post describing your understanding of the 'escathological fire' and Second Death and all that (things usually related to Hell), I'd like to ask you, how do you read Isaiah 66:22-24? I suggest you read the whole passage for context (seriously, please do) (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+66&version=NIV), but here's the last three verses, set in the New Creation:

22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Who are 'those who rebelled against Me' in this passage? (v.24)
Who are 'all mankind' in this passage? (v.23, 24)
Who looks on the bodies of 'those who rebelled against Me' in this passage? (v.24)
Whom are 'those who rebelled against Me' loathsome to?* (v.24)
If 'all mankind' here does not, indeed, refer to ALL of mankind, then what could that imply on other instances where such inclusive language is used?

Look, I am not trying to affirm that either (a) the worms are literal or (b) the fire is literal (though from passages like this one, I guess I could). But Jesus did get 'Gehenna' imagery from this passage (e.g. Mark 9), so let's just focus on the people mentioned, and whatever implications that might have... and maybe the fact that the book ends here.

Cheers,

Bisto.
I did look over Isaiah 66, and the NIV is better in the New Testament but I see the KJV as much better for the Old Testament, but here I will use the NIV as you did:

verse 22 “... all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
---

So first it does say "all" as in all of mankind (male and female (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1%3A27&version=KJV)) and then it says "dead bodies" and dead bodies are not souls burning in any Hell or grave.

The "dead bodies" mean dead and not living, and dead bodies means dead corpse or carcass.

The worms eat a dead carcass and that fire burns the dead carcass = and that is what this verse declares - which is the same thing as Gehenna (http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/files/2014/06/cehennem_431941.jpg) too as Jesus was talking about for dead bodies being eaten by worms and burned in a physical fire in the garbage dump.

And more-so in the last 2 words on verse 24 it again declares "all mankind" see it as loathsome and again "all" means all, as when all people get saved through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross who paid the penalty for all of our sins.



---------
(*): I am not sure if the grammar I used in this question is correct. Sorry. Second language and all.
I can usually see through improper grammar and misspellings and linguistics as it is not so hard to do, and I will never nit-pick about mistakes or confusing comments.

Such things are very common with people in every form of writing and typing and in talking too.

The English language and especially the American English is really a very limited and barbaric language with lots of huge discrepancies.

I did not really know this about the English language until studying the scriptures as translated from other languages and then it became clear.

I like to point out that the English language has only one word for "Love" and even it is not well defined as most people do not know what Love means and virtually no one accept the dictionary definition of Love, but in English we have lots of various words for murder, as murder can be said in so many varieties, as like assassination or lethal injection or as collateral damages, and etc etc etc. So we have one uncertain word for Love but many words for murder = it is a barbaric language.

Sparko
04-11-2017, 09:24 AM
:whoosh: (Bisto's point flying over James' head)

Christianbookworm
04-11-2017, 10:33 AM
:whoosh: (Bisto's point flying over James' head)

That isn't very hard....

James Cusick
04-11-2017, 01:55 PM
:whoosh: (Bisto's point flying over James' head)
That isn't very hard....
Is not that sweet of you to say!

Hopefully Sparko gives out brownie points. :yipee:

So if anyone want to discuss the topic then they are welcome and invited to do so by me.

I will not be throwing around any cheep shots or petty insults at anyone.

That is not the way of Christ. ~ IMO.

Christianbookworm
04-11-2017, 02:14 PM
Is it bad to insult one too foolish to insult?

Bisto
04-11-2017, 10:29 PM
I did look over Isaiah 66, and the NIV is better in the New Testament but I see the KJV as much better for the Old Testament, but here I will use the NIV as you did:

verse 22 “... all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
---

So first it does say "all" as in all of mankind (male and female (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1%3A27&version=KJV)) and then it says "dead bodies" and dead bodies are not souls burning in any Hell or grave.
If you want to know my opinion (based on what I've read and some logic), "dead bodies" here is only a metaphor through the shame of defeat, lying unburied, decay and destruction. However, for the sake of argument I'll roll with you here and assume it isn't.

Okay, so you're saying those who rebelled against God end up as dead bodies in the context of this passage. You cannot be implying that these very same people are also among the "all mankind" looking upon, and abhorring, these people's carcasses.

The "dead bodies" mean dead and not living, and dead bodies means dead corpse or carcass.

The worms eat a dead carcass and that fire burns the dead carcass = and that is what this verse declares - which is the same thing as Gehenna (http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/files/2014/06/cehennem_431941.jpg) too as Jesus was talking about for dead bodies being eaten by worms and burned in a physical fire in the garbage dump.
As I said, I won't argue that in this post. It's besides the point.

And more-so in the last 2 words on verse 24 it again declares "all mankind" see it as loathsome and again "all" means all, as when all people get saved through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross who paid the penalty for all of our sins.
Again: it is actual people who are the dead bodies in this passage, "those who rebelled against [God]". You cannot be saying these people are looking at their own carcasses (with what eyes??), or if I may go back to my actual interpretation of this for a minute, they cannot be standing around with everyone else looking at their own state of ultimate disgrace as third parties... UNLESS you held to a very weird view of the Resurrection of the Dead.

(Before you clarify that last point, let's be clear that, as far as I know, the orthodox position is to affirm our resurrection will be like that of Jesus: the body that died is the seed that is transformed (by the growth that God gives) into the body that rises, the flower that blossoms. The same applies to the wicked, except they rise to a state without glory, or honor, or peace, but everlasting contempt -- in their bodies too. No man is 'complete' without his body, in this life or the next.)


I can usually see through improper grammar and misspellings and linguistics as it is not so hard to do, and I will never nit-pick about mistakes or confusing comments.

Such things are very common with people in every form of writing and typing and in talking too.

The English language and especially the American English is really a very limited and barbaric language with lots of huge discrepancies.

I did not really know this about the English language until studying the scriptures as translated from other languages and then it became clear.

I like to point out that the English language has only one word for "Love" and even it is not well defined as most people do not know what Love means and virtually no one accept the dictionary definition of Love, but in English we have lots of various words for murder, as murder can be said in so many varieties, as like assassination or lethal injection or as collateral damages, and etc etc etc. So we have one uncertain word for Love but many words for murder = it is a barbaric language.
Thank you for understanding.

Bisto
04-11-2017, 10:32 PM
:whoosh: (Bisto's point flying over James' head)
Hopefully this time it won't.

37818
04-12-2017, 06:06 AM
It repeatedly says it over and over that "all men" to be saved.

Human beings might wish it or hope it but God commands it.

The will of God = will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

You are viewing it as if man (male and female) have a will which is strong against God, and that God's will is not going to be fulfilled, and the exact opposite is the truth.

God's will is for all (for all) to be saved - and it will be done = see the Bible text that you quote above.


I realize that orthodox Christianity tries to pretend that "death" and "dying" are synonymous with burning in Hell but that is not true.

The Bible says death and die then it does not mean go to any such place as Hell except that the Hell means the grave.

Death and die go together with the grave.

And as you quote = The soul dies, as in a dead body in the grave (sheol (http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sheol/)).

The death and the second death is explained by the Apostle Paul as death to sin, people die to sin, which is done in the lake of fire where the sins are burned yet the person is saved.

DEATH TO SIN - is the SECOND DEATH for every person.
So why are those who believe in Jesus Christ the Savior not subject to the second death? (John 11:26; 1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 2:11.)


". . . He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son. But to the fearful and unbelieving, and sinners , and those who make themselves abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:7-8.

Sparko
04-12-2017, 06:52 AM
Hopefully this time it won't.

Yeah I am not sure if he just missed the obvious or was turning a blind eye to it in order to not have to address it.

James Cusick
04-12-2017, 09:17 AM
So why are those who believe in Jesus Christ the Savior not subject to the second death? (John 11:26; 1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 2:11.)


". . . He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son. But to the fearful and unbelieving, and sinners , and those who make themselves abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:7-8.
The second death is explained by the Apostle Paul as death to sin, people die to sin, which is done in the lake of fire where the sins are burned yet the person is saved.

The Apostle Paul explained that he experienced the "death to sin" in this lifetime, and later his body died.

People today and now can and do experience the second death (death to sin) here-n-now if and when we become repentant and make amends for our sins.

It says that in the text you quote that the righteous already have their reward, while the unrepentant sinners still need to be cleansed and purified in the fire of God where they too will die to sin.

And even if you or others want to claim the second death to be a literal second death then death does not mean eternal life in torment.

Death means death - except by the way the Apostle Paul explains that death means dying to sin.

See here Romans 5:
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
----

The simplicity of Christ is the salvation for all.

Sparko
04-12-2017, 09:41 AM
The second death is explained by the Apostle Paul as death to sin, people die to sin, which is done in the lake of fire where the sins are burned yet the person is saved.

uh no. Paul never mentions the second death. He merely said he is dead to sin. It is a metaphor, clearly.

Revelations 21:8 explains the second death quite clearly:

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Read it. Believe it. It is plain and there is no twisting the meaning James.

James Cusick
04-12-2017, 09:57 AM
uh no. Paul never mentions the second death. He merely said he is dead to sin. It is a metaphor, clearly.

Revelations 21:8 explains the second death quite clearly:

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Read it. Believe it. It is plain and there is no twisting the meaning James.
It is a metaphor (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/metaphor) - yes.

:yipee:

Sparko
04-12-2017, 10:15 AM
It is a metaphor (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/metaphor) - yes.

:yipee:duh. DO you think Paul actually DIED? How would he write that if he did.

But you are just ignoring the obvious again. Revelation 21:8 explains "the second death" plainly. It has nothing to do with Paul's words. Except in your twisted imagination. It plainly says that it is what happens to all liars the UNBELIEVING, murderers, and so on. THEY (not their sins) will be consigned to the lake of fire.

The believers never taste of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

So how can Paul be talking of experiencing the second death if 1. It doesn't occur until after the first resurrection and 2. doesn't happen to the believers only unbelievers?

James Cusick
04-12-2017, 10:38 AM
duh. DO you think Paul actually DIED? How would he write that if he did.

But you are just ignoring the obvious again. Revelation 21:8 explains "the second death" plainly. It has nothing to do with Paul's words. Except in your twisted imagination. It plainly says that it is what happens to all liars the UNBELIEVING, murderers, and so on. THEY (not their sins) will be consigned to the lake of fire.

The believers never taste of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

So how can Paul be talking of experiencing the second death if 1. It doesn't occur until after the first resurrection and 2. doesn't happen to the believers only unbelievers?
Do not get angry - this is just a discussion.

If you insist on viewing the second death as literal instead of a metaphor then death means death.

Die once then die a second time.

If second death means second death then there is no eternal life in torment.

By studying the Apostle Paul we are told about death being a metaphor which means death to sin, otherwise the second death is just being double dead.

Sparko
04-12-2017, 11:04 AM
Do not get angry - this is just a discussion.

If you insist on viewing the second death as literal instead of a metaphor then death means death.

Die once then die a second time.

If second death means second death then there is no eternal life in torment.

By studying the Apostle Paul we are told about death being a metaphor which means death to sin, otherwise the second death is just being double dead.

so yet again you merely ignore everything someone says and answer something they never even said. James, you said you use your real name to keep yourself honest. Well James, you are anything but honest. You refuse to even acknowledge the point the other person is making and instead either dismiss it out of hand, pretend you didn't get it, or just argue something completely different and pretend you are answering them.

Yet every claim you have brought up has been shown to be false regarding your idea of Universalism. You don't seem to be interested in the truth, or even finding out if you are wrong or not. You just want to blithely go on believing what you want to believe, cherry pick evidence out of the bible using quote mining, and disregard anything that proves you wrong.

Very dishonest of you. Not only towards us, but towards yourself. You are living in a delusion.

Or perhaps you are just a nutcase. We get them here from time to time. They are irrational and can't be reasoned with. Are you one of those? Do you find yourself being mocked or ridiculed or banned from various online forums a lot? Don't worry, around here we don't ban someone for being a kook. You are welcome. But you won't be take seriously if you don't actually respond to the actual arguments people give you.

James Cusick
04-12-2017, 01:30 PM
Very dishonest of you. Not only towards us, but towards yourself. You are living in a delusion.
I stand by everything that I said as accurate and true.

I just wish that you would comment on the topic instead of attacking me.

Sparko
04-13-2017, 05:00 AM
I stand by everything that I said as accurate and true.

I just wish that you would comment on the topic instead of attacking me.

I have tried numerous times as have others, but each time you just ignore what we say and respond to something we did not say. So there is nothing left but to call you out on your dishonest tactics and your hypocrisy.

James Cusick
04-13-2017, 03:20 PM
I have tried numerous times as have others, but each time you just ignore what we say and respond to something we did not say. So there is nothing left but to call you out on your dishonest tactics and your hypocrisy.
Well I will try to ignore your ugly ignorant comments, but I doubt that is truly possible for me to accomplish.

If anyone else wants to talk about the topic in a respectful and Christian way then I would welcome that.

Bisto
04-13-2017, 06:16 PM
Well I will try to ignore your ugly ignorant comments, but I doubt that is truly possible for me to accomplish.

If anyone else wants to talk about the topic in a respectful and Christian way then I would welcome that.
James,

Even though I have been myself sarcastic to you a few times now, I must say --in the most respectful and Christian way I can-- that Sparko's assessment rings true. You can drop the last part of his post, perhaps, if you don't want to read some impressions you MAY be conveying; nonetheless, it does seem as though you are not really addressing the actual (very on-topic) points raised by others here. As far as I'm concerned, you might as well go over this thread again and ask yourself through each post what everyone was REALLY trying to say and see whether you have successfully replied to that. Perhaps you have, but the rest does not seem to share that impression :shrug:


I know this post does not address anything new on-topic. My reply is simply "check what has been said before", there's plenty to talk about if you want to.

James Cusick
04-14-2017, 05:42 AM
Everyone gets Saved, and there is no Hell:

The reason that every person throughout humanity does get SAVED is because Jesus paid the punishment (or penalty) in full for all of humanity, and so not even one (1) sinful sheep will remain lost or left out.

Every claim contrary to that simple truth is just human fear and confusion and absurdities.

We are to love our enemies just as God loves His enemies = Matthew 5:43-48 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A43-48&version=KJV), and love does not burn people in torment and there is no place of Hell (http://www.heavennet.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/hellfire-1000x480.jpg).

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
An interesting change of perspective happens when we start viewing everyone as a child of God and that everyone is to be saved and repentant:

As like we start seeing things like a drunken bum laying in a gutter and our first thought might be = "To Hell with them".

So that changes when we start seeing every other person as not yet saved, and then there is a feeling of wonder for some person like a drunken bum because one day they will be great and be our equal before God.

Not just drunks or bums, but Kings and terrorist and our enemies and nonbelievers and infidels will all become born again as true children of God whether any of them like it or not - and then we must view them in the better light of God for His lost children.

When we view sinners as damned to a Hell then it is easy to turn thy back to thy neighbors and to strangers, instead of rightfully having consideration and compassion for the people who we may help or encourage.

Sparko
04-14-2017, 05:46 AM
If everyone will be saved, then what is the point of the world continuing like it is? Why hasn't God already fixed his creation and saved everyone and made us immortal in paradise? Why is the world continuing to be a broken and sinful place with murder and sin?


The only reason is that God is giving men more time to repent and be saved. If we are all already saved, there is no point.

Bisto
04-14-2017, 06:55 AM
An interesting change of perspective happens when we start viewing everyone as a child of God and that everyone is to be saved and repentant:

As like we start seeing things like a drunken bum laying in a gutter and our first thought might be = "To Hell with them".

So that changes when we start seeing every other person as not yet saved, and then there is a feeling of wonder for some person like a drunken bum because one day they will be great and be our equal before God.

Not just drunks or bums, but Kings and terrorist and our enemies and nonbelievers and infidels will all become born again as true children of God whether any of them like it or not - and then we must view them in the better light of God for His lost children.

When we view sinners as damned to a Hell then it is easy to turn thy back to thy neighbors and to strangers, instead of rightfully having consideration and compassion for the people who we may help or encourage.
I think the attitudes you describe here can be a real problem, indeed. However, it's far from true that not believing in Universalism leads one to behave like that towards nonbelievers. I'd say the attitude you ascribe to the Universalist reflects a little better the attitude I've seen in lots of the Christians I've met -- except they don't have "certainty" that the unbelievers will be saved, they just long for it and will that it be so and act to that end... like our Father, if I may add.

All in all, I'd say the attitudes you ascribe to the two are unrealistic generalizations and, even if they were true (and I dont think they are), they don't really make any argument in favor of your position :shrug: (if that is what you intended it to do. Maybe not)

37818
04-14-2017, 02:28 PM
The second death is explained by the Apostle Paul as death to sin, people die to sin, . . .Explain how you understand this from the text.

. . . which is done in the lake of fire where the sins are burned yet the person is saved.The whole person is baptized in the lake of fire. [Teaching of baptisms, ". . . and [with] fire: . . . will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." -- Matthew 3:11-12. ". . . to destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28.]

There is a difference between "works" being burned and the whole person.

Eternal life is a current possession of those who have received Christ (1 John 5:12; John 1:12-13). Those who do hot yet have the Spirit of Christ do not have life and are none of His (1 John 5:12; Romans 8:9).

Paul warns, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

Jesus said to those who did not believe, "Ye are of [your] father the devil, . . ." -- John 8:44.

And you did not answer that those who are born of God are even now exempt from the second death (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 2:11).

Sparko
04-15-2017, 04:36 AM
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

James Cusick
04-15-2017, 07:18 AM
All in all, I'd say the attitudes you ascribe to the two are unrealistic generalizations and, even if they were true (and I dont think they are), they don't really make any argument in favor of your position :shrug: (if that is what you intended it to do. Maybe not)
I greatly appreciate that you do give that last thought of uncertainty because I really do not want to convert or convince anyone even though it looks as if I am.

I accept that other people will reject what I say - and I am fine with that - and so my point and purpose is just to discuss the topic, and I even like to argue about doctrine and about scriptures, so anyone who does not want it is fine by me. It is their loss.

As the Bible declares = some people have eyes which can not see and ears which can not hear and or a heart which can not understand.

On other thread topics I talk about the other subjects and so I am not stuck or obsessed about any one (1) topic as like this one here.

Some have accused me of making it into my own Blog, but it is the online forum itself that turns every thread into a type of mini Blog so I am not doing anything different from every other person starting a thread or sticking to a topic.

If my thread does become famous on the internet with millions of views then that would be great advertisement for this Tweb forum - and then I would take over the entire world ~ just kidding, LOL.

And yes I know you did not ask for any of this rant in your comment - as I offer it on my own initiative.


I think the attitudes you describe here can be a real problem, indeed. However, it's far from true that not believing in Universalism leads one to behave like that towards nonbelievers. I'd say the attitude you ascribe to the Universalist reflects a little better the attitude I've seen in lots of the Christians I've met --
The reason that the different perspective matters is because when we look at the person (rulers of the world or drunken bum or at any person) then the orthodox Christian perspective is that we need to preach the Gospel to the person(s) and seek to save their soul from Hell or seek to save them to salvation.

From my perspective that every person will be saved then I look at the other people (be they high or low) and ask = what is God doing with each person?

We must be careful in asking why? as in why God does anything, because asking why about God can hurt our human brain.

After asking what is God doing with other people, then we start asking what is God doing with me myself? and what is God doing with us?

People always want to ask why? and yet the pertinent question is to ask WHAT - what is God doing? because we can discover the answers to what? but very seldom ever know the reasons why?

As such when we see the drunken bum (or any person) we can then ask - what can I do to help with the will of God for that person.

When we view the person as not-saved then it means that the person is some how separate or separated from God and that is never true.

It is in fact impossible to be separated from our loving Father God.



except they don't have "certainty" that the unbelievers will be saved, they just long for it and will that it be so and act to that end... like our Father, if I may add.
Yes - I am one who does have the certainty and yes I am certain = that everyone gets saved and there is no such place as a Hell.

Mine is not a belief, as I went way past belief a long time ago.

God does not want people to live in beliefs, as belief is just like knocking on the door, and we are to enter past belief into knowing.

People get stuck in their belief - yes - but only when the belief is wrong or inaccurate.

37818
04-15-2017, 08:43 AM
James.

You really need to explain how the "second death" is the cleansing of the sinners sins where the believer is exempt form the "second death." What was Christ's death on the cross need for then?

Paul.

James Cusick
04-15-2017, 08:48 AM
Explain how you understand this from the text.
The whole person is baptized in the lake of fire. [Teaching of baptisms, ". . . and [with] fire: . . . will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." -- Matthew 3:11-12. ". . . to destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28.]

There is a difference between "works" being burned and the whole person.
Jesus was said to baptize "with the Holy Ghost and with fire" and so the lake of fire is just another baptism where the sins are washed away and the person is forgiven and saved.

And "to destroy both soul and body in hell" really means to DESTROY, and to destroy does not mean eternal life in torment.
Even if the soul were destroyed too then it means destroyed as in dead. Link: Definition - Destroy (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/destroy)

If you think destroy means to burn people (or souls) in a Hell then Jesus would be telling a lie and not a metaphor by saying destroyed.




Eternal life is a current possession of those who have received Christ (1 John 5:12; John 1:12-13). Those who do hot yet have the Spirit of Christ do not have life and are none of His (1 John 5:12; Romans 8:9).
Eternal life means in Heaven or in Hell or in the Kingdom of God, so if sinners do not have eternal life then they can not live forever in a Hell.

When sinners are first resurrected then they still will not have eternal life until they go through the baptism of fire where they become SAVED.

Not even one (1) lost sinner sheep will remain lost or left out.



Paul warns, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

Jesus said to those who did not believe, "Ye are of [your] father the devil, . . ." -- John 8:44.
This is because there are two (2) different kinds of salvation, as one in this life and the second saved after death.

Jesus already paid the penalty in full for all of humanity for after death.

But in this life people need a different kind of salvation from sins, as in saved from addictions, saved from ignorance, saved from cruelty and from lust, violence and from greed, and etc.



And you did not answer that those who are born of God are even now exempt from the second death (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 2:11).
Those who are born of God (those saved) here and now have already died the second death being that they are already dead to sin.

Other people who are hopelessly lost in this life will not be saved until the second death after the resurrection where they too will die to sin.

James Cusick
04-15-2017, 12:01 PM
James.

You really need to explain how the "second death" is the cleansing of the sinners sins where the believer is exempt form the "second death."
I do believe that I explained this in the comment #128 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?14079-Everyone-gets-Saved-and-there-is-no-Hell&p=433332&viewfull=1#post433332) above.

You might see that I am some times really slow at making comments.



What was Christ's death on the cross need for then?

Paul.
The reason for Jesus on the cross is because at that time, there was no eternal life, and every person was doomed to eternal death.

It is said plain and simple here = Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." KJV.

When Jesus paid the penalty then all of humanity became open to have eternal life for humanity.

~ "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22

See it says " all " as in everyone.

Bisto
04-15-2017, 02:47 PM
I greatly appreciate that you do give that last thought of uncertainty because I really do not want to convert or convince anyone even though it looks as if I am.

I accept that other people will reject what I say - and I am fine with that - and so my point and purpose is just to discuss the topic, and I even like to argue about doctrine and about scriptures, so anyone who does not want it is fine by me. It is their loss.
That is fine, but aside from some exasperated or sarcastic comments thrown your way, I'd say most comments here have been very much on topic, if that's what you mean.

As the Bible declares = some people have eyes which can not see and ears which can not hear and or a heart which can not understand.
Yeah, but you can imagine why I cringe at using such a passage in any conversation or discussion about any area of disagreement. It could in theory become an excuse for our own bad presenting or arguing whatever we're trying to communicate at the moment. Not saying that's necessarily the case here, but that's what comes to mind when passages like that one come up.

On other thread topics I talk about the other subjects and so I am not stuck or obsessed about any one (1) topic as like this one here.

Some have accused me of making it into my own Blog, but it is the online forum itself that turns every thread into a type of mini Blog so I am not doing anything different from every other person starting a thread or sticking to a topic.

If my thread does become famous on the internet with millions of views then that would be great advertisement for this Tweb forum - and then I would take over the entire world ~ just kidding, LOL.

And yes I know you did not ask for any of this rant in your comment - as I offer it on my own initiative.
Okay.

The reason that the different perspective matters is because when we look at the person (rulers of the world or drunken bum or at any person) then the orthodox Christian perspective is that we need to preach the Gospel to the person(s) and seek to save their soul from Hell or seek to save them to salvation.

From my perspective that every person will be saved then I look at the other people (be they high or low) and ask = what is God doing with each person?

We must be careful in asking why? as in why God does anything, because asking why about God can hurt our human brain.

After asking what is God doing with other people, then we start asking what is God doing with me myself? and what is God doing with us?

People always want to ask why? and yet the pertinent question is to ask WHAT - what is God doing? because we can discover the answers to what? but very seldom ever know the reasons why?

As such when we see the drunken bum (or any person) we can then ask - what can I do to help with the will of God for that person.
I don't know what your point is here. AFAIK, God is extending his Kingdom in Jesus -- both within ourselves, and through us towards others and the world. IMO, what we are called to DO is the same whether God is a Universalist or not.

When we view the person as not-saved then it means that the person is some how separate or separated from God and that is never true.

It is in fact impossible to be separated from our loving Father God.
In a way, I think you are right. God is the source of all life and existence, and all things are "through Him", so no person could be alive or even exist and be wholly "apart from" Him.

Despite the above, there is a way I don't think you are right when you say this. As 37818's avatar graphically shows, post-Fall mankind is at enmity with God and in need of reconciliation with Him (e.g. Eph. 2, Col. 1:15-23), and Christ-less people will face separation from God in a meaningful enough way for Paul to actually say it out loud:
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Does this passage not look like the kind of contrast you would expect to read from Paul if Universalism were wrong?


Yes - I am one who does have the certainty and yes I am certain = that everyone gets saved and there is no such place as a Hell.

Mine is not a belief, as I went way past belief a long time ago.

God does not want people to live in beliefs, as belief is just like knocking on the door, and we are to enter past belief into knowing.

People get stuck in their belief - yes - but only when the belief is wrong or inaccurate.
Interesting epistemology. I understand you in part, but I can't help but ask: what would it take for you to change your mind about Universalism? What biblical evidence, for example? If you are familiar with the Christian Thinktank (www.christianthinktank.com), you may remember the man sometimes discusses hypotheses by asking "what kind of verses would we expect to find if X theory were true/false" or things like that. What would it take for you?

James Cusick
04-16-2017, 08:47 AM
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Does this passage not look like the kind of contrast you would expect to read from Paul if Universalism were wrong?
It says there = eternal destruction - and that is not eternal life in a Hell.

What it means is eternal destruction of the sins as in the second death and thereby death to sin.

That aligns perfectly with this:

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

It would be different if Paul or Jesus or anywhere in the Bible it just straight out declared that = You all must do as commanded or else ye will burn in a place of torture and torment forever and ever. ~ People say that but that threat is never said in the scriptures.

Any true threat of violence like that needs to be said plain and clear and not in parables or in metaphor or in tricky interpretations.

The opposite is said in many places that all ( all ) people are to be saved:

~ 1 Timothy 2: (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+2%3A3-7&version=KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
---

37818
04-16-2017, 03:27 PM
Jesus was said to baptize "with the Holy Ghost and with fire" and so the lake of fire is just another baptism where the sins are washed away and the person is forgiven and saved.Why does it say "with unquenchable fire?" What is the point of being "unquenchable?"



And "to destroy both soul and body in hell" really means to DESTROY, and to destroy does not mean eternal life in torment.Not eternal life, but the second death (Revelation 20:14), and if no torment' why does it say "the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest " (Revelation 14:11)?



Even if the soul were destroyed too then it means destroyed as in dead. Link: Definition - Destroy (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/destroy) That is NOT the Biblical definition. The soul will die conscious (Mark 9:48) just as Jesus' soul (Isiah 53:10) died (Psalm 22:1, 6) conscious on the cross. Having completed the payment (John 19:28, 30) before He physically died (Luke 23:46).



If you think destroy means to burn people (or souls) in a Hell then Jesus would be telling a lie and not a metaphor by saying destroyed.No. You are arguing translation of απολεσαι. And you are also making he claim it is the "works" not the person being burned up citing 1 Corinthians 3:15 are you not?




Eternal life means in Heaven or in Hell or in the Kingdom of God, so if sinners do not have eternal life then they can not live forever in a Hell.The dead soul - their consciousness - their worm does not die (Mark 9:48; as Jesus suffered on the cross (Isaiah 53:10; Psalm 22:6). There is NO eternal life in Hell both the body and soul being dead.



When sinners are first resurrected then they still will not have eternal life until they go through the baptism of fire where they become SAVED.That is your false conclusion. It is the second death (Revelation 21:8).


Not even one (1) lost sinner sheep will remain lost or left out.


This is because there are two (2) different kinds of salvation, as one in this life and the second saved after death.

Jesus already paid the penalty in full for all of humanity for after death. To be Lord of all, not Savior of the dead but their Judge (Romans 14:9-11).


But in this life people need a different kind of salvation from sins, as in saved from addictions, saved from ignorance, saved from cruelty and from lust, violence and from greed, and etc.


Those who are born of God (those saved) here and now have already died the second death being that they are already dead to sin.No, the born of God are exempt from the second death (Revelation 2:11; Revelation 21:7).


Other people who are hopelessly lost in this life will not be saved until the second death after the resurrection where they too will die to sin.It nowhere says that. But that is what you are arguing.


I do believe that I explained this in the comment #128 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?14079-Everyone-gets-Saved-and-there-is-no-Hell&p=433332&viewfull=1#post433332) above. Yeah, of what you are convinced.




The reason for Jesus on the cross is because at that time, there was no eternal life, and every person was doomed to eternal death.No. The prophecy of Isaiah 53:6 (1-12) is in the past tense. It was already counted as done. And was done when Jesus died in His soul on the cross before He physically died (John 19:30).


It is said plain and simple here = Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." KJV.The gift has to be received in this life (Hebrews 9:27).



When Jesus paid the penalty then all of humanity became open to have eternal life for humanity.

~ "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22
See it says " all " as in everyone.Jesus is the reason why names are in the book of life, so little childern are safe. Names can be blotted out (Revelation 20:15). That is why Jesus said one must become as a little child (Mark 10:14-15) and be born over (John 3:3) in order to even see God's kingdom. Else their name will be blotted out (Psalm 69:27-28).

James Cusick
04-17-2017, 07:22 AM
Why does it say "with unquenchable fire?" What is the point of being "unquenchable?"
The scriptures declares that God is on fire = Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
And the scriptures declare that God appeared in a burning bush and yet the bush was not consumed = Exodus 3:2-3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+3%3A2-3&version=KJV)
The fire of God consumes sin but the person gets saved.

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

So yes the fire is unquenchable, but the sins are quenched.



Not eternal life, but the second death (Revelation 20:14), and if no torment' why does it say "the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest " (Revelation 14:11)?
That does not mean anyone is burning in any Hell.

Having no rest simply means having no Sabbath, and it is referring to this lifetime and not after death.

And the Revelation(s) are given in metaphor, so the Bible tells us this about the smoke:

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

None of it means any torture or torment in some kind of a Hell.



That is NOT the Biblical definition. The soul will die conscious (Mark 9:48) just as Jesus' soul (Isiah 53:10) died (Psalm 22:1, 6) conscious on the cross. Having completed the payment (John 19:28, 30) before He physically died (Luke 23:46).

No. You are arguing translation of απολεσαι. And you are also making he claim it is the "works" not the person being burned up citing 1 Corinthians 3:15 are you not?
Yes - the sins are burned away and the person gets cleaned and purified and saved.

It is a simple message in the Gospels of the universal forgiveness of sins and the reconciliation of humanity to God - the reconciliation of the children to their Father.



The dead soul - their consciousness - their worm does not die (Mark 9:48; as Jesus suffered on the cross (Isaiah 53:10; Psalm 22:6). There is NO eternal life in Hell both the body and soul being dead.
In this you are half way there - that there is no eternal life in a Hell - and that the soul is thereby dead.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. KJV.

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. KJV

It says this all through the Bible that the sins cause death and God will forgive the sins and make clean the unclean and everyone gets saved into eternal life.



That is your false conclusion. It is the second death (Revelation 21:8).
The second death means dead to sin.

This is not complicated.

And it is simple to see that death does not mean eternal life in torture and torment.



To be Lord of all, not Savior of the dead but their Judge (Romans 14:9-11).
Human judging is far different from God's Judging, see the Bible's Book of Judges.

To Judge the dead by God includes our intercessor of Jesus Christ:
~ 1 Timothy 2: (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+2%3A3-7&version=KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



No, the born of God are exempt from the second death (Revelation 2:11; Revelation 21:7).
If a person is already dead to sin = then there is no need to do that again.

I do believe that many in this life who claim to be "saved" and claim to be "born of God" and who claim to be "dead to sin" might find them self as in need of the second death before they can enter into the real salvation.



No. The prophecy of Isaiah 53:6 (1-12) is in the past tense. It was already counted as done. And was done when Jesus died in His soul on the cross before He physically died (John 19:30).
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

It says = all sin - then all are saved.

This same message is repeated all through the Bible.



The gift has to be received in this life (Hebrews 9:27).
It does not say as your claim - it does not say that at all.

Hebrews 9:
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
-----

The first is a physical death where we die only once, the second death to sin does not mean to die again - it means salvation unto life eternal.

This message is very plain and simple. See also James 5:20 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+5%3A20&version=KJV)



Jesus is the reason why names are in the book of life, so little childern are safe. Names can be blotted out (Revelation 20:15). That is why Jesus said one must become as a little child (Mark 10:14-15) and be born over (John 3:3) in order to even see God's kingdom. Else their name will be blotted out (Psalm 69:27-28).
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You are just rejecting the plain and simple message of salvation.

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

Bisto
04-17-2017, 11:12 AM
As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
Ahem...

Please explain how you interpret 1 Cor 3:15 in light of its broader context -- what your understanding of it has to do with what comes before it and what comes after it, which are mainly about building on the foundation that is Christ and more broadly addressing the issue of the factions there were in Corinth centered around different leaders (e.g. Paul, Apollos). I may have rambled some nonsense, but I do believe what I said still made some sense and wasn't too far off the usual interpretations I've heard or read of the passage :wink:. (In fact, I'll go as far as to say in my previous post I leaned too much into the passage's application for any believer's life, and didn't emphasize enough that Paul was talking about leaders and teachings mainly.)

I'll put the chapter here in case you haven't read it in full recently.

1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.
Uh... James? Can you help us with your hammer, please? :whistle:

James Cusick
04-17-2017, 11:43 AM
Ahem...

Please explain how you interpret 1 Cor 3:15 in light of its broader context -- what your understanding of it has to do with what comes before it and what comes after it, which are mainly about building on the foundation that is Christ and more broadly addressing the issue of the factions there were in Corinth centered around different leaders (e.g. Paul, Apollos). I may have rambled some nonsense, but I do believe what I said still made some sense and wasn't too far off the usual interpretations I've heard or read of the passage . (In fact, I'll go as far as to say in my previous post I leaned too much into the passage's application for any believer's life, and didn't emphasize enough that Paul was talking about leaders and teachings mainly.)

I'll put the chapter here in case you haven't read it in full recently.

Uh... James? Can you help us with your hammer, please? :whistle:
I truly do not comprehend whatever you are trying to say or to ask here, and I truly just see it as trying to complicate a simple sentence into some thing that the sentence does not say.

I gave you a hand-wave=swoosh before based on that same reason.

The broader context makes no difference to the words of verse 15 and I see no sense in trying to dig up some thing which is not there.

Perhaps - if I understand you correctly - then this text is like a two edged sword which cuts both way, because that is an important principle for comprehending the meaning of scriptures, see quote below:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It means that virtually every text of scripture (the word) can be interpreted in two (2) different direction (two edged sword which cuts both way).

As such the text of 1 Cor 3:15 can apply to individuals or to the entire human race, and it can be either a painful message for some people but a happy message for other people. It can apply to the rich or poor, to the believer and the nonbeliever, to the righteous and to the wicked.

So = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

That text is describing a two-sided interpretation by saying = he suffers lost - yet the person is saved.

Bisto
04-17-2017, 07:13 PM
I truly do not comprehend whatever you are trying to say or to ask here, and I truly just see it as trying to complicate a simple sentence into some thing that the sentence does not say.
It's really really simple. The Bible is made of books which are messages somebody wrote to somebody else. As in any other message, old and new, the context of any proof-text needs to be understood for it to remain truthful to what the original sender meant. The Bible is not some magic book made of swiss-army-knife verses that, just because they are inspired by God, can be interpreted any way we like.

For example, it would be stupid for me to proof text 1 Tim. 2:15 as evidence that women can only be saved if and when they become mothers (and faithful, loving, sanctified and modest at that); Paul wrote that verse in a specific context, making a specific argument, to a specific audience, about a specific topic. The same applies to any other verse, and really, to any fragment of any communication. There is a thing called "quote mining" for a reason.


I gave you a hand-wave=swoosh before based on that same reason.
Hopefully you understand why seeing you react like that to such a basic idea can be a little exasperating.

The broader context makes no difference to the words of verse 15 and I see no sense in trying to dig up some thing which is not there.
I disagree and I showed you why. Do i have to quote actual commentaries? I'm trying to be understanding and explaining things myself. I'd much rather have a civil conversation on the merits of a contextually justified interpretation than quoting actual exegesis by third parties more qualified than me, to the same end.


Perhaps - if I understand you correctly - then this text is like a two edged sword which cuts both way, because that is an important principle for comprehending the meaning of scriptures, see quote below:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It means that virtually every text of scripture (the word) can be interpreted in two (2) different direction (two edged sword which cuts both way).
I disagree with your interpretation of Heb. 4:12. Show me how it fits in Hebrews 4 and we'll be talking. Is that really asking for too much? I'd say the same to a friend quoting a single sentence uttered by a third party -- "give me context and I'll understand what the person meant, only then can I say whether I can agree with your assessment of it or not".

As such the text of 1 Cor 3:15 can apply to individuals or to the entire human race, and it can be either a painful message for some people but a happy message for other people. It can apply to the rich or poor, to the believer and the nonbeliever, to the righteous and to the wicked.
I think 1 Cor 3:15 DOES have some application for us believers here, but I already explained how that would be IMU, in the post you dismissed as "complete nonsense" (I may be paraphrasing). That would simply be that every believer's work for the church will be weighed on its ultimate helpfulness, and if what you did for the sake of the church was of edification (which can be seen because it endured the fire of trial), then that'll be an honor and reward for you -- but even if your work (or lack of it) was ultimately of no real value, you'd still be saved, but with no 'plus'.

So = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

That text is describing a two-sided interpretation by saying = he suffers lost - yet the person is saved.
True - of the people Paul's talking about, leadership. And if we stretch it a little bit, it may apply to any brother who is saved by faith and whose work for the Church proved worthless -- because it didn't endure the fire of test.

I am assuming you are a man older or much older than me. By comparison with the average age of posters in this forum, I'm one of the kids here, so to speak. If I got your country right, then English is your first language. Am I really being that dense? Because the subject matter itself is so simple...

James Cusick
04-18-2017, 07:32 AM
I disagree with your interpretation of Heb. 4:12. Show me how it fits in Hebrews 4 and we'll be talking. Is that really asking for too much?
That has no interest for me as I already told how it relates to the "Lake of fire" and that was my point.

If you your self want to fit that text into the entire chapter then you do it.

So yes it is asking too much of me to do your homework.



I think 1 Cor 3:15 DOES have some application for us believers here, but I already explained how that would be IMU, in the post you dismissed as "complete nonsense" (I may be paraphrasing).
Yes - I gave you a direct simple answer.

So deal with it.

My answer is still the same.



That would simply be that every believer's work for the church will be weighed on its ultimate helpfulness, and if what you did for the sake of the church was of edification (which can be seen because it endured the fire of trial), then that'll be an honor and reward for you -- but even if your work (or lack of it) was ultimately of no real value, you'd still be saved, but with no 'plus'.
The word of God is like a two-edged-sword which cuts both ways.

So yes you are correct about this in your view, but the words in the text still applies to the "lake of fire" and the sins being burned and every person being saved.



I am assuming you are a man older or much older than me. By comparison with the average age of posters in this forum, I'm one of the kids here, so to speak. If I got your country right, then English is your first language. Am I really being that dense? Because the subject matter itself is so simple...
No, I understand and comprehend your words just fine, it is just that you are not taking the next step for your self and I can not do that for you.

It is like creating an invisible wall around your self, because you say that you want this and want that but it is your own job to do the homework about God for your self.

When it is your own personal relationship with God then I can not interfere or intervene.

Bisto
04-19-2017, 05:57 AM
So you, the man with unorthodox theology, posting on an unorthodox theology subforum, will not defend your unorthodox interpretations when given the chance. Asking for how a verse fits with its chapter is a very straightforward thing to do if your interpretation had solid foundations (hint: it doesn't), like asking how the elbow fits in the arm or how a machine fits in a given production system.

I already explained myself on 1 Cor 3. If you insist, I'll take some time on Heb 4 (which shouldn't be even necessary, just go read it and ask some basic questions on what you observe). But you won't do the same for your views on verses ripped off those chapters for some odd reason.


By the way, does your view of verse interpretation mean I can grab a random fragmented quote of yours and give it new meaning for my own purposes? It could be fun. I am thinking I could promote you as an Annihilationist* from some of your fragmented quotes, for instance.




(*): I am not an Annihilationist, but I am playing the opportunist card right now.

Sparko
04-19-2017, 07:15 AM
2 Timothy 4:3
KJ21
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts.

RumTumTugger
04-19-2017, 12:18 PM
2 Timothy 4:3
KJ21
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts.
that fits James Cusick. Proof in point he refuses to acknowledge the clear teaching in John 3:16-18, that you pointed out inpost #125 because he wants what tickles his ears instead of sound doctrine. so he does worse then handwave it he ignores God's Words there so he can continue believing a lie told to him by the father of lies.

37818
04-19-2017, 01:59 PM
Why does it say "with unquenchable fire?" What is the point of being "unquenchable?"
The scriptures declares that God is on fire = Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
And the scriptures declare that God appeared in a burning bush and yet the bush was not consumed = Exodus 3:2-3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+3%3A2-3&version=KJV)
The fire of God consumes sin but the person gets saved. Ok, understood that is your interpetation. But nowhere does the holy scripture expressly teach that.



As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
You have conflated the "second death" with testing of the believer's works built upon the foundation of trusting Christ.
It is the testing of a believer's works for reward not in order to be saved. Bad works burned up. The person is not in the fire.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15,
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Revelation 21:7-8,
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


So yes the fire is unquenchable, but the sins are quenched.No. Again, nowhere does the holy scripture expressly teach any such thing.




Not eternal life, but the second death (Revelation 20:14), and if no torment' why does it say "the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest " (Revelation 14:11)?

That does not mean anyone is burning in any Hell.It says they have "torment."


Having no rest simply means having no Sabbath, and it is referring to this lifetime and not after death.No. It refers to their eternal suffering in eternal death of their bodies and souls.



And the Revelation(s) are given in metaphor, so the Bible tells us this about the smoke:

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

None of it means any torture or torment in some kind of a Hell.
It says in Revelation, "the smoke of their torment." And your reference as you cite it says, "consume away." :shrug:
Revelation "torment" is not in metaphor that Psalm 37:20 is indeed in metaphor.






That is NOT the Biblical definition. The soul will die conscious (Mark 9:48) just as Jesus' soul (Isiah 53:10) died (Psalm 22:1, 6) conscious on the cross. Having completed the payment (John 19:28, 30) before He physically died (Luke 23:46).

No. You are arguing translation of απολεσαι. And you are also making he claim it is the "works" not the person being burned up citing 1 Corinthians 3:15 are you not?

Yes - the sins are burned away and the person gets cleaned and purified and saved.

It is a simple message in the Gospels of the universal forgiveness of sins and the reconciliation of humanity to God - the reconciliation of the children to their Father.

You are not understanding the holy scripture how it disallows your view:
Mark 10:15,
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
The Greek 'ου μη' translated "shell not" actually means, "not in any way."
And this corresponds to what Jesus told Nicodemus:
John 3:3,
. . . Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . .
The Greek 'ου δυναται' translated "cannot" actually means "cannot possibly."
The requirement to be born of God disallows your view altogether. If you fail to comprehend this . . . . :shrug:



The dead soul - their consciousness - their worm does not die (Mark 9:48; as Jesus suffered on the cross (Isaiah 53:10; Psalm 22:6). There is NO eternal life in Hell both the body and soul being dead.

In this you are half way there - that there is no eternal life in a Hell - and that the soul is thereby dead.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. KJV.

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. KJV

It says this all through the Bible that the sins cause death and God will forgive the sins and make clean the unclean and everyone gets saved into eternal life.The holy scripture nowhere promises everyone gets saved. Nowhere.
In the second death both the body and soul dies (Matthew 10:28), only their worm never dies and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:48).



That is your false conclusion. It is the second death (Revelation 21:8).

The second death means dead to sin.

This is not complicated.

And it is simple to see that death does not mean eternal life in torture and torment.
There is no eternal life in hell fire. There is only second death of the body and soul (Matthew 10:28) where their worm is what never dies (Mark 9:48).



To be Lord of all, not Savior of the dead but their Judge (Romans 14:9-11)

Human judging is far different from God's Judging, see the Bible's Book of Judges.

To Judge the dead by God includes our intercessor of Jesus Christ:
~ 1 Timothy 2: (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+2%3A3-7&version=KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
I already covered this. The Greek 'θελει' translated "will" in "will have all" means "wants" all. it does not mean all "will be" saved.



No, the born of God are exempt from the second death (Revelation 2:11; Revelation 21:7).
If a person is already dead to sin = then there is no need to do that again.

I do believe that many in this life who claim to be "saved" and claim to be "born of God" and who claim to be "dead to sin" might find them self as in need of the second death before they can enter into the real salvation.The ones who have eternal life now know God (John 17:3; 1 John 5:12, 13; Romans 8:16). Your arguments are nonsense. :shrug:



No. The prophecy of Isaiah 53:6 (1-12) is in the past tense. It was already counted as done. And was done when Jesus died in His soul on the cross before He physically died (John 19:30).

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

It says = all sin - then all are saved.

This same message is repeated all through the Bible.Again, Nowhere in the whole Bible is it taught everyone gets saved.




The gift has to be received in this life (Hebrews 9:27).
It does not say as your claim - it does not say that at all.

Hebrews 9:
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
-----It says "unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation"



The first is a physical death where we die only once, the second death to sin does not mean to die again - it means salvation unto life eternal.

This message is very plain and simple. See also James 5:20 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+5%3A20&version=KJV)Saying your false teaching does not make it true.

Your argument is not found in the holy scriptures.

Revelation 21:7-8,
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:27,
. . . And there shall in no way enter into it <the new Jerusalem> any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Revelation 20:15,
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Jesus is the reason why names are in the book of life, so little childern are safe. Names can be blotted out (Revelation 20:15). That is why Jesus said one must become as a little child (Mark 10:14-15) and be born over (John 3:3) in order to even see God's kingdom. Else their name will be blotted out (Psalm 69:27-28).

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You are just rejecting the plain and simple message of salvation.

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

No, I accept God's plain simple gospel of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15;3-4,
. . . For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . .
Romans 1:16,
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . .
___________

Let us try a different approach. How you came to your view point. Step by step. And how you had believed before you came to your current view..

Bibleuser
12-13-2017, 07:55 AM
How then does this fit in:-
Ezekiel 3:18-19
When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you. 19 But if you warn someone wicked and he does not turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked . . .
BU

The Remonstrant
12-18-2017, 12:49 AM
The reason that every person throughout humanity does get SAVED is because Jesus paid the punishment (or penalty) in full for all of humanity, and so not even one (1) sinful sheep will remain lost or left out.

Every claim contrary to that simple truth is just human fear and confusion and absurdities.

We are to love our enemies just as God loves His enemies = Matthew 5:43-48 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A43-48&version=KJV), and love does not burn people in torment and there is no place of Hell (http://www.heavennet.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/hellfire-1000x480.jpg).

As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

This is horrific eisegesis. Perhaps I will respond in a bit more depth in the coming days.

The Remonstrant
12-21-2017, 01:21 AM
The reason that every person throughout humanity does get SAVED is because Jesus paid the punishment (or penalty) in full for all of humanity, and so not even one (1) sinful sheep will remain lost or left out.

Your argument is that if the scope of the atonement is indeed universal, everyone for whom Christ died will unavoidably be saved. Put another way, the extent of the atonement is coextensive with the final number of the redeemed. This argument, whilst a faulty one, is typically urged by high Calvinists in order to demonstrate the (purported) untenability of an unlimited atonement alongside only a limited number of humans inheriting salvation.

The reason why this logic fails is that the procurement of salvation and its application are distinct. When salvation is rightly understood as conditional in nature, it is not inconceivable that some for whom Christ died will fail to receive the benefits of the salvation he procured. The conditions of salvation are expressed in the New Testament. Christ may be accepted or rejected by those who hear the proclamation of the good news. This is in no way negates the fact that Christ died for all and calls all persons to obey the gospel in the present age.


Every claim contrary to that simple truth is just human fear and confusion and absurdities.

We are to love our enemies just as God loves His enemies = Matthew 5:43-48 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A43-48&version=KJV), and love does not burn people in torment and there is no place of Hell (http://www.heavennet.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/hellfire-1000x480.jpg).

Your citation of Matthew 5:43–48 pertains to enemy-love; it is not pertinent to the issue of whether some persons will be irrevocably condemned in the age to come. Moreover, in the very same Gospel Jesus explicitly admonishes his disciples to fear God (see Matt. 10:28). The fear believers are warned against is the fear of fellow human beings, for humans are only capable of inflicting harm in the current age. The reason why Jesus-followers are to fear God is that he alone has the authority to cast persons into Gehenna, a place of eschatological punishment. Not one of the references to Gehenna in Matthew’s Gospel provides any indication that those who are assigned this destiny will at last be restored to God.


As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3%3A15-16&version=KJV)

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

In 1 Corinthians 3:15 Paul is not addressing the fate of non-believers. The ‘fire’ in view is therefore not to be conflated with the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14–15 and 21:8. The fiery lake in the Apocalypse is not restorative in nature. Those who are cast into it are irretrievably lost.

Abu Njoroge
03-04-2019, 05:32 AM
I am for the most part Bahaii but don't completely adhere to it either.Was a Christian for years.Today I see Christianity as a religion that had evolved into a fear based religion.The ides of those that don't get born again using our belif,prayers and rituals is forever damned .This idea to me makes me believe that many Christian's worship a book rather than God(YHVH).they even go so far as to say the 144,000 in revelations are Christian saints but the John clearly says the are of Israel thus they are Jews.The idea of a practicing Jew being born again by addherance to the first commandment leaves Christian's trying to speak for God even saying Jesus is God.yet no one sees the face of God and lives but many saw the face of Christ.

Abu Njoroge
03-04-2019, 05:41 AM
Christianity teaches of a kingdom of God found after death.Gnosticism teaches finding the Kingdom in the here and now because God's spirit (Holy Spirit,Voice of God,Kalam Allah ect...) Is found in the present because there is no place that God is not.When you go within you can here it's eternal vibration ( Logos,Word,Bajhan,Music of the spheres, Celestial sound current) Do you not know that the kingdom of God is within you? The body is the temple of the living God If your eye be single your whole body shall be full of light.

Faber
03-04-2019, 11:47 AM
By citing Scripture, you are citing exactly what it is that Christianity teaches, that the Kingdom of God is within believers, that we Christians are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.

Super Cow
03-08-2019, 10:57 AM
The doctrine of hell makes people squeamish. What if we loved God's holiness so much that we actually rejoiced at those burning in hades?

That's a creepy thought

A local boy kicked me in the butt last week.
I just smiled at him and turned the other cheek.
I really don't care, in fact I wish him well.
'Cause I'll be laughing my head off when he's burning in hell.

- Weird Al" Yankovic - Amish Paradise

Super Cow
03-08-2019, 12:09 PM
If everyone will be saved, then what is the point of the world continuing like it is? Why hasn't God already fixed his creation and saved everyone and made us immortal in paradise? Why is the world continuing to be a broken and sinful place with murder and sin?


The only reason is that God is giving men more time to repent and be saved. If we are all already saved, there is no point.

This is the obvious logical argument to why everyone cannot be saved. Regardless of whatever else you believe, the Bible and most of history makes no sense if everyone is saved.

Regarding the existence of Hell, that is another story. The Hebrew word for Hell is "Sheol". There was no equivalent in Greek, so the closest substitute was "Hades", which originates in Greek mythology. Gehenna was a geographical location. The final word "Tartarus", is also borrowed from Greek mythology, where it is a place of banishment or imprisonment for disobedient gods and monsters after the Titan war. This is also translated to Hell in 2 Peter 2:4, which in context of the rest of the chapter applies to the angels that sinned in Genesis 6. Tartarus does not appear in Genesis, but the reference doesn't come from Greek mythology either. It is a reference to the book of Enoch 20:3. (The only available manuscripts ever found of Enoch were in Greek, so it is unclear what the Hebrew word was, if indeed any part of Enoch comes from that time period.) Tartarus is never used to refer to humans.

Regarding Sheol, it is inconsistently translated. It is not always Hell; sometimes it is grave or pit. The KJV is consistent in that when it translates Sheol to Hell, it is for someone evil (eg. Deuteronomy 32:22, Psalms 9:17), and grave when it is for somebody deemed righteous. (eg. Genesis 37:35, 43:38, 1 Kings 2:6,9, Job 14:13)

Regarding Hades, the same patter prevails there. For good people Hades is translated grave (1 Corinthians 15:5), and for evil it is translated Hell. (Matthew 11:23) It is seen following a horse in Revelation 6:8, and second it is thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14)

John 3:13 says nobody has ascended to Heaven. Jesus' sacrifice was required to redeem mankind before they would be eligible. Those who rejected God do not go to heaven, they just cease to exist.

And the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable; very similar to other parables by Jesus that were intended to teach a story, not to be taken literally.