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One Bad Pig
04-12-2017, 07:20 AM
Hank Hanegraaf was received into the Orthodox Church through chrismation (https://christiannews.net/2017/04/11/bible-answer-man-hank-hanegraaff-chrismated-into-eastern-orthodoxy/) last Sunday, along with the rest of his family (and others, looks like).

Meh Gerbil
04-12-2017, 07:45 AM
Interesting.
Looks like an additional vacancy in heaven.

(Just kidding, good for him in that he found a community - I always thought his faith sounded a bit sterile on the radio. I'm glad he's finding depth.)

Sparko
04-12-2017, 07:54 AM
Does that mean he was unorthodox before?

:outtie:

One Bad Pig
04-12-2017, 08:05 AM
Does that mean he was unorthodox before?

:outtie:
You're close.

jpholding
04-12-2017, 08:19 AM
James White gonna turn red and 'splode.... :lol:

I'll have to chat with my contacts at CRI about this. I certainly don't object. I've been mistaken for a member of the Orthodox church more than once -- and I find them a darned sight better when it comes to a focus on education, compared to many Protestant churches.

Wherp...a fundy blog did turn red and 'splode already...

http://pulpitandpen.org/2017/04/10/the-bible-answer-man-hank-hanegraaff-leaves-the-christian-faith/

This is the same bunch that also got mad at people who didn't worship at Geisler's feet, IIRC.


The Orthodox Church is a false expression of Christianity, much like the Roman Catholic Church, that is highly driven by graven images and denies the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith alone, and instead, trusts in meritorious works and a sacramental system for salvation.

Good night what a crock of garbage. That crock about graven images in the same thing Dan Barker pulls. And yeah I know the nuances about grace and faith well enough to see what a crock that is, too.


So what is the significance of this? This should be a testimony of the dismal state of the evangelical church in our modern day. There is a sure lack of biblical truth and doctrinal stability to which many can be left wandering.

This from a bunch of fundy pantywaists like Pulpit and Pen? Get me the Ultra-Supersize Irony Meter, please. :doh:


Should this really come as a surprise? If these reports are accurate, and I see no reason why they wouldn’t be (a picture speaks a thousand words), then this is merely an example of what happens when professing Christians elevate something other than Scripture as the final authority on all things.

Yeah you know, like contexts that define Scripture. :doh:


In an article by Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis titled Hank Hanegraaff’s Abuse of Biblical Truth, Ham denounces Hanegraaff’s non-authoritative interpretation of Scripture where he even denies the biblical account of the serpent in the Garden of Eden.

Oy....look, yeah, I've written articles for both of these guys in the past. I like 'em both. But the way we read the serpent has nothing to do with this.

I may blog about this at the end of the week.

jpholding
04-12-2017, 08:22 AM
I always thought his faith sounded a bit sterile on the radio.

Limited-time component mediums like radio are generally not a place one can easily get beyond sounding sterile, apart from screaming like a political talk show host. Meeting him in person, it's much easier to appreciate the depth of his faith.

Cow Poke
04-12-2017, 08:27 AM
Does that mean he was unorthodox before?

:outtie:

No, it means he was Unorthodox.

:outtie:

guacamole
04-12-2017, 09:30 AM
Wow, the comment section below the article in the link is an alternately entertaining and sad mix of misstatements and doctrinaire denominational positions--from many sides. Although, in actuality I know nothing about most denominations and less than nothing about the Greek Orthodox church, so I can't really say myself.

One Bad Pig, I did a superficial and lazy Google search about whether or not he gives an explanation in his own words and couldn't find anything. I checked out CRI and looked for his own page but found nothing. Do you know if he has published a story of his conversion somewhere that we could read and follow his thought process?

fwiw,
guacamole

One Bad Pig
04-12-2017, 10:41 AM
Wow, the comment section below the article in the link is an alternately entertaining and sad mix of misstatements and doctrinaire denominational positions--from many sides. Although, in actuality I know nothing about most denominations and less than nothing about the Greek Orthodox church, so I can't really say myself.

One Bad Pig, I did a superficial and lazy Google search about whether or not he gives an explanation in his own words and couldn't find anything. I checked out CRI and looked for his own page but found nothing. Do you know if he has published a story of his conversion somewhere that we could read and follow his thought process?

fwiw,
guacamole
Aside from the little bit in the article itself, I haven't seen anything. I assume he'll address the issue at some point, but didn't want to say anything definitive until he'd actually taken the plunge. Given his background, I'm sure it's not a step he took lightly or in ignorance. I also came to Orthodoxy through reading about the early church, fwiw. N.T. Wright has also touched on theosis with approval here and there (though I can't recall off-hand where exactly), which I found interesting.

guacamole
04-12-2017, 11:46 AM
Aside from the little bit in the article itself, I haven't seen anything. I assume he'll address the issue at some point, but didn't want to say anything definitive until he'd actually taken the plunge. Given his background, I'm sure it's not a step he took lightly or in ignorance. I also came to Orthodoxy through reading about the early church, fwiw. N.T. Wright has also touched on theosis with approval here and there (though I can't recall off-hand where exactly), which I found interesting.

Thanks. Let us know if anything comes up.

Dante
04-13-2017, 05:33 AM
Do you know if he has published a story of his conversion somewhere that we could read and follow his thought process?

fwiw,
guacamole

Here's a podcast where he talks a bit about his conversion to Orthodoxy:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/bible-answer-man/

You might want to read more on this here as well:
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/102618.htm

jpholding
04-13-2017, 06:41 AM
From the above links:


I am now a member of an Orthodox Church, but nothing has changed in my faith. I have been attending an Orthodox church for a long time—for over two years, really, as a result of what happened when I went to China, many years ago. I saw Chinese Christians who were deeply in love with the Lord, and I learned that while they may not have had as much intellectual acumen or knowledge as I did, they had life. And so I learned that while truth matters, life matters more, and I remember flying back from China after spending time with just common people who had a deep, intense love for the Lord, and wondering, “Was I even a Christian?”

I was comparing my ability to communicate truth with their deep and abiding love for the Lord Jesus Christ… One man, by the way, said to me, truth matters but life matters more. In other words, it is not just knowing about Jesus Christ, it is experiencing the Resurrected Christ. As a result of that I started studying what was communicated by the progeny of Watchman Nee with respect to theosis and that drove me back to the early Christian Church.

This has to do with a change of position CRI had on the group called The Local Church, which has a lot of membership in China. A whole issue of the Journal was devoted to the reconsideration of the group.

21890

CRI took a lot of heat for that reconsideration from people like James White. As far as I'm concerned White and other critics are culturally ignorant on the subject.

My views on theosis aren't too far from Orthodoxy either.

Sparko
04-13-2017, 07:06 AM
From the above links:



This has to do with a change of position CRI had on the group called The Local Church, which has a lot of membership in China. A whole issue of the Journal was devoted to the reconsideration of the group.

21890

CRI took a lot of heat for that reconsideration from people like James White. As far as I'm concerned White and other critics are culturally ignorant on the subject.

My views on theosis aren't too far from Orthodoxy either.
what? he is legitimizing watchman Nee and witness Lee? The Troy Brooks thing?

jpholding
04-13-2017, 07:34 AM
what? he is legitimizing watchman Nee and witness Lee? The Troy Brooks thing?

They re-investigated the movement and decided the original critique of Walter Martin was erroneous.

I have never heard of Troy Brooks before now. After a check I doubt he was significant enough to get their attention, but what's the sum of it as far as you know? I could ask about him next time I visit with one of my friends from CRI.

Sparko
04-13-2017, 08:02 AM
They re-investigated the movement and decided the original critique of Walter Martin was erroneous.

I have never heard of Troy Brooks before now. After a check I doubt he was significant enough to get their attention, but what's the sum of it as far as you know? I could ask about him next time I visit with one of my friends from CRI.

Troy was a troll on the old tweb, who was a "disciple" and proponent of Watchman Nee and was a total kook. He currently runs this site: http://biblocality.com/ where he spouts insane nonsense and has a forum where he is basically the only member because he kicks off anyone who doesn't totally agree with him. He even has a few sock puppets of himself there so he can make it look like others are there and agree with him. Pretty sad.

I tell you, if CRI is saying Watchman Nee and his ideas are legitimate, they have lost me as a supporter.

Dante
04-13-2017, 09:18 AM
Troy was a troll on the old tweb, who was a "disciple" and proponent of Watchman Nee and was a total kook. He currently runs this site: http://biblocality.com/ where he spouts insane nonsense and has a forum where he is basically the only member because he kicks off anyone who doesn't totally agree with him. He even has a few sock puppets of himself there so he can make it look like others are there and agree with him. Pretty sad.

I tell you, if CRI is saying Watchman Nee and his ideas are legitimate, they have lost me as a supporter.

About 10 years ago I was at a Protestant camp for training youths identified as potential future church leaders and we were taught something about Watchman Nee, but I completely forgot what it was. Could you brief us about what's problematic about Watchman Nee's beliefs?

jpholding
04-13-2017, 10:11 AM
Troy was a troll on the old tweb, who was a "disciple" and proponent of Watchman Nee and was a total kook. He currently runs this site:

Oh HIM. I think I pulled his chain a couple of times. I don't think he had the brain cells needed to understand Nee's writings or anyone else's for that matter. I wouldn't have trusted him to interpret a cookbook. He'd have turned it into a cult manual :lol:


I tell you, if CRI is saying Watchman Nee and his ideas are legitimate, they have lost me as a supporter.

Well you can read that whole issue online if you want:

http://www.equip.org/PDF/EnglishOpt.pdf

TheWall
04-13-2017, 12:47 PM
Watchman Nee. I've heard of this guy. He taught while the communist were really cracking down in China. This article jp posted clears up a lot. I first heard of the guy reading Rodney Stark's A star in the East.

Catholicity
04-19-2017, 11:21 AM
And now we wait for the likes of John Macarthur and those who follow Reformed theology to condemn him to hell

Jedidiah
04-19-2017, 12:41 PM
My question is, when you move from one Christian denomination to another is it really conversion?

One Bad Pig
04-19-2017, 01:02 PM
My question is, when you move from one Christian denomination to another is it really conversion?
The Orthodox Church does not consider itself a denomination (neither does the Roman Catholic Church).

NorrinRadd
04-19-2017, 03:06 PM
The Orthodox Church does not consider itself a denomination (neither does the Roman Catholic Church).

Neither does Calvary Chapel.

Meanwhile, Mormons consider themselves Christians.

We need an official label-assigning committee.

KingsGambit
04-19-2017, 03:09 PM
The Stone-Campbellite Church of Christ is very insistent that it isn't a denomination. All churches are independent, even though they generally believe pretty much the same thing.

Having said that, the word "demonination" generally implies something much smaller than one of the three major branches of Christianity.

Littlejoe
04-19-2017, 04:12 PM
ISTM that most churches (and cults) that claim to be the "One, True Church" do not consider themselves to be denominations...

One Bad Pig
04-19-2017, 06:34 PM
ISTM that most churches (and cults) that claim to be the "One, True Church" do not consider themselves to be denominations...
:shrug: Most of those groups also have a (lack of) history problem.

Trout
04-19-2017, 07:28 PM
I miss Walter Martin.

Jedidiah
04-19-2017, 11:10 PM
The Orthodox Church does not consider itself a denomination (neither does the Roman Catholic Church).

I understand that, but the question remains however you phrase it.

Littlejoe
04-22-2017, 02:58 PM
:shrug: Most of those groups also have a (lack of) history problem.
Agreed! HOwever, supposed history does not necessarily guarantee truth.

One Bad Pig
04-22-2017, 04:35 PM
I understand that, but the question remains however you phrase it.

The question is largely an intra-Protestant thing. :shrug: Before y'all came along, it was always considered a conversion from heterodoxy to orthodoxy by the receiving group.

One Bad Pig
04-22-2017, 04:39 PM
Agreed! HOwever, supposed history does not necessarily guarantee truth.
No, but a lack of history pretty much guarantees a lack of truth.

Jedidiah
04-22-2017, 06:39 PM
Agreed! HOwever, supposed history does not necessarily guarantee truth.


No, but a lack of history pretty much guarantees a lack of truth.

It is quite reasonable to judge that in the intervening years error has crept into the older bodies. Thus something new could be a return to greater truth not lack of truth.

Keep in mind that I am not saying this is true, just that history does not guarantee truth, and a lack of history does not necessarily mean a lack of truth. In both cases it could go either way.

One Bad Pig
04-23-2017, 04:01 PM
It is quite reasonable to judge that in the intervening years error has crept into the older bodies. Thus something new could be a return to greater truth not lack of truth.

Keep in mind that I am not saying this is true, just that history does not guarantee truth, and a lack of history does not necessarily mean a lack of truth. In both cases it could go either way.
Something new is necessarily NOT a return. I will readily grant that error could creep into older bodies. I refuse to believe, however, that the Church could be wrong for 2,000 years (or 1,500, for that matter).

T-Shirt Ninja
04-24-2017, 12:05 PM
1. Many years to Hank!

2. Pulpit and Pen is as arrogant as it is ridiculous. Orthodox groups on Facebook have been having a laugh with how much they misunderstand our faith. It's a hoot.

3. Orthodoxy is the true faith and I'm happy to have a Christian apologist join our ranks.

NorrinRadd
04-26-2017, 10:28 PM
Something new is necessarily NOT a return.

In Bibleworld, things can be both "A" and "not-A" at the same time (though not necessarily in the same sense). This specifically (but not necessarily exclusively) applies to "newness," as 1 John 2:7-8 show.




I will readily grant that error could creep into older bodies. I refuse to believe, however, that the Church could be wrong for 2,000 years (or 1,500, for that matter).

Well ok, that's the sort of position that can't be debated.

One Bad Pig
04-27-2017, 06:09 AM
In Bibleworld, things can be both "A" and "not-A" at the same time (though not necessarily in the same sense). This specifically (but not necessarily exclusively) applies to "newness," as 1 John 2:7-8 show.
If a concept can be shown to be not new, then it's not something to which I'm referring here.


Well ok, that's the sort of position that can't be debated.
Sure. I was, perhaps, being that dogmatic to deliberately emphasize my point. It would take considerable evidence to change my mind, but it's conceivable.

One Bad Pig
07-14-2017, 06:59 PM
Hank Hanegraaf has done a couple interviews (http://www.ancientfaith.com/films/hanegraaff-interviews) reflecting on his experience over the last couple months and what Orthodoxy means to him.

Sentient 6
09-19-2017, 12:59 PM
We can talk about the " rightness " of Hanks conversion, of course. But I think a even more pressing question is warranted. In light of Hanks faith in the truth of Eastern Orthodoxy, should not Hank now step down as the " bible answer man " and president of CRI ? Considering before that his role at CRI was based in a belief in Sola Scriptura and beliefs along the lines of the Founder, Walter Martin ?

One Bad Pig
09-19-2017, 01:39 PM
We can talk about the " rightness " of Hanks conversion, of course. But I think a even more pressing question is warranted. In light of Hanks faith in the truth of Eastern Orthodoxy, should not Hank now step down as the " bible answer man " and president of CRI ? Considering before that his role at CRI was based in a belief in Sola Scriptura and beliefs along the lines of the Founder, Walter Martin ?
Good question. I don't know the exact terms of his employment with CRI. I'm fairly certain that he (and others at CRI) have given this some thought. I know I had to work through keeping my position here when I converted (as did other staff members who converted to EO here).

I don't recall Walter Martin being a preterist, so presumably there is some wiggle room.

NorrinRadd
09-19-2017, 07:32 PM
Is there anything in CRI's Beliefs (http://www.equip.org/about/our-beliefs/) or "Essentials" (http://www.equip.org/about/the-essentials/) incompatible with Orthodoxy?

One Bad Pig
09-20-2017, 06:30 AM
Is there anything in CRI's Beliefs (http://www.equip.org/about/our-beliefs/) or "Essentials" (http://www.equip.org/about/the-essentials/) incompatible with Orthodoxy?
There are some tensions in the Beliefs (e.g., penal substitution is not the traditional model of the atonement in Orthodoxy), but I don't see anything that goes against the rulings of the Ecumenical Councils, which are the standard.

Littlejoe
09-20-2017, 03:46 PM
Are EO beliefs more along the lines of Christus Victor (https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/christus-victor-the-salvation-of-god-and-the-cross-of-christ/)?

One Bad Pig
09-20-2017, 05:03 PM
Are EO beliefs more along the lines of Christus Victor (https://fullerstudio.fuller.edu/christus-victor-the-salvation-of-god-and-the-cross-of-christ/)?
:yes:

Littlejoe
09-20-2017, 08:21 PM
:yes:I'm actually quite favorable to Christus Victor. :thumb:

Sentient 6
09-24-2017, 09:49 PM
Question. Was there a part in his chrismation where he had to renounce things he believed as a Protestant Evangelical ? If so, which ecumenical counsels are usually sighted as reasons for him having to renounce the main and basic principles of the Protestant Reformation ?

One Bad Pig
09-25-2017, 06:08 AM
Question. Was there a part in his chrismation where he had to renounce things he believed as a Protestant Evangelical ? If so, which ecumenical counsels are usually sighted as reasons for him having to renounce the main and basic principles of the Protestant Reformation ?
No. He recited the Nicene Creed, and pledged to hold to the teachings of the ecumenical councils.

Dante
09-25-2017, 11:51 AM
No. He recited the Nicene Creed, and pledged to hold to the teachings of the ecumenical councils.

Without the Filioque :)

KingsGambit
09-25-2017, 12:06 PM
:hi: Dante

Dante
09-25-2017, 07:47 PM
:hi: Dante

Hi King!