Revelations 20

[alkech]

Last Saturday I went to a co-workers funeral service that took place at a church. In comforting friends and family, the preacher stated that the deceased was better off then all of us right now. He stated that the deceased was with Jesus right now, looking down on all of us. However, I could have sworn that Revelations says that only at the coming of Jesus will the dead be resurrected and JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS as recorded in the book of life, will they be taken to heaven?

Revelations 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Am I missing something?

Thanks

[nomad]

i don't know exactly how all the timing works out, but:

Eph 2:4-7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (6) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

this is written in the past tense. but i really don't know the answer to your question. there's also that parable Jesus spoke about Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus was in paradise and the rich man was in hades. but i don't know if we should take lessons about life-after-death from a parable or not...

[alkech]

Well thanks for your response.

I also see were these verses are animate about the deeds recorded in the book of life, but what is often expressed is the need only to have faith in the grace of Jesus?

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 11:48 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=315315#post315315)
alkech:

Last Saturday I went to a co-workers funeral service that took place at a church. In comforting friends and family, the preacher stated that the deceased was better off then all of us right now. He stated that the deceased was with Jesus right now, looking down on all of us. However, I could have sworn that Revelations says that only at the coming of Jesus will the dead be resurrected and JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS as recorded in the book of life, will they be taken to heaven?

Revelations 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Am I missing something?

Thanks

Yes, Rev 20:4-5 is 1000 years (at least, depends on who you talk to) before the events of 11-15. And the Bible also says "absence from the body is to be present with the Lord.

[nomad]

I also see were these verses are animate about the deeds recorded in the book of life, but what is often expressed is the need only to have faith in the grace of Jesus?

you really don't want to get into that debate right now ;)

it isn't just this one passage; it's a tension between many passages (including some in the gospels from Jesus, and some from James, and this one, and probably others) against the arguments and defenses of Paul (and, to be honest, it didn't stop there! there are some ECF, well in the first volume of the philokalia there is a set of proverbs by st.mark the ascetic (early 6th! century) on 'no righteousness by works', and probably on through time...). the history of the church is amazingly split on this as well; most people will accuse the catholic church of preaching salvation by works, and yet they were just as forceful (or perhaps more so) in their denunciation of Pelagianism as they were predestinarianism.

a full discussion of this would take many threads, and many books have been written on the subject (see theology 201, in which subjects like this are often discussed, and are even being discussed this very moment).

i think that you have realized somethng important, that there must be some sort of peace between faith and works, but what that peace looks like will depend on who you talk to and what their particular leanings are.

i don't want to prejudice you towards or away from any particular position (any more than i might already have); though i have my own opinions on this subject, it is complicated, and rashness in conclusion is ill advised. no matter what judgment you eventually make, this investigation can produce much fruit in learning about God, his various attributes include grace, mercy, and justice, and the history and varied traditions of the church.

[trueseeker]

Jesus also told the thief on the cross beside Him, "This day you will be my Me in Paradise."

My way of justifying the two thoughts, is that our spirits and perhaps part or all of our souls go to be with the Lord after death. But we are not yet in our ressurrected bodies. So we are not really complete people again until the second ressurrection.

[Lion]

Alktech, you certainly have been misled. That preacher was spouting the common line of the immortality of the soul. Most people have been taught the lie that Satan told Eve, “You shall not surely die.”

Ever since men began to die, they have wondered what happens when men die. God told Adam and Eve “For dust thou art, and unto dist thou shalt return.” The Greeks invented a story that was common in Christ’s day, about what happens after death. Jesus used that story when he told the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Josephus tells the basis of the story.

It is important to understand the common thinking of Jesus’ day. The Jews looked on riches as a sign of God’s blessing but in the parable the situation is reversed, wiith the beggar going to the place of bliss, while the rich man went to the place of burning. The rich man asks Abraham to have Lazarus come over and cool his tongue. The punch line occurs when Abraham tells the rich man his brothers won’t believe even if one rose from the dead. (Luke 16)

The real payoff occurs when Jesus raised the real Lazarus from the dead. (John 11) Lazarus had been dead four days and had begun to decay. According to modern popular belief, he should have been in heaven or hell by this time. If he had gone to heaven, Jesus would have been most cruel to call him back from heaven, because that is the place most of us desire to go. But there is no record of any experience while Lazarus was dead. In fact many people came to see him after he was resurrected.

The myth of the soul going to heave or hell is just that, a myth from Greek mythlogy. There are several verses in Matthew and Mark that mention being cast into hell.

Mark 9:43 “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mark 9:45 “If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mark 9:47 “If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

This sounds like an eternal burning hell where souls burn forever, doesn’t it? But this is an unfortunate translation, from the popular belief of the translators who had recently come out of Catholicism. The word translated hell was a valley southwest of Jerusalem called the valley of Hinnom, or gehenna, Jerusalem’s garbage dump, where dead animals and criminals were dumped. There were always fires burning and maggots infested the dead bodies.

You mentioned Rev 20. We have to back up a few chapters to get the connection, but that is another subect. We should take that up next time.

[Lion]

Trueseeker, the statement of Jesus to the thief in the cross can be taken several ways.

First, let's read what the verse actrually says:
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Then we have to remember that the Greek text had no punctuation. All the words were run together. So we can take Christ's words in several ways:

Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
It sounds like the thief was going to be in paradise that day, but trhe thief didn't die that day. His legs were broken and he probaby lived several days.

If we place the comma differently:
Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Today, when all seems hopeless, you will be with me in paradise.
Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise?
You are a thief, do you deserve this?

Now we realize Jesus was promising the man eternal life, even though he had been condemned. But he will come up in the resurrection when Jesus comes, not at the second resurrection. The second resurrection is for the wicked.

[kofh2u]

Trueseeker, the statement of Jesus to the thief in the cross can be taken several ways.

First, let's read what the verse actrually says:
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Then we have to remember that the Greek text had no punctuation. All the words were run together. So we can take Christ's words in several ways:

Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
It sounds like the thief was going to be in paradise that day, but trhe thief didn't die that day. His legs were broken and he probaby lived several days.

If we place the comma differently:
Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Today, when all seems hopeless, you will be with me in paradise.
Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise?
You are a thief, do you deserve this?

Now we realize Jesus was promising the man eternal life, even though he had been condemned. But he will come up in the resurrection when Jesus comes, not at the second resurrection. The second resurrection is for the wicked.


The crucifixion initiated the new heaven and the new earth which is Christ. All who believe are in this new place, paradise, is with Christ, today.

Rev 20 in 21st century language makes secular and theological sense. Read it with an open mind, because the kingdom of God is within:

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead (historically), small and great, stand before God, (imaged in the Homoiousian Mind); and the books (of Scripture, Old and New) were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life (man's phylogenetic memory within the Collective Unconscious Mind): and (in total phylogenetic memory) the dead were judged out of those things which were "written," (genetically reproduced in every next generation) in the books (of the mind), according to their works.

Rev. 20:13 And (the Collective Unconscious Mind), the SEA, gave up the dead (MEMORIES) which were in it; and (these genetic records of men concerning their) DEATH and (the insanity of the) hell (of man's past actons) delivered up the dead (memories) which were in them: and they were (self) judged, every man according to their works (as described in that Book of Matthew 25:31- 46).

Rev. 20:14 And DEATH (by virtue of our eternal phylo-genetic memories which are reborn in future generations) and (the concept of) HELL (viewed as a separate place of eternal punishment) were cast into (EXTINCTION), the lake of fire, (these ideas, death and Hell, no longer to be remembered). This is the SECOND DEATH (Extinction).


Rev. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life (the eternal phylogenetic memory within the Collective Unconscious Mind of the evolving Homoiousians) was cast into the lake of fire (which ismextinction).

[spiritmech]

The Christian definition of immortality of the soul is very different from the Greek/Platonic understanding of immortality of the soul. The major difference is that (in traditional Christian thought) the soul is created at conception, while the Greeks define a soul that existed before birth and had always existed.

You can deny the immortality of the soul, but only if you want to say we don't have a soul (we're just physical) or that there is a soul but it dies with the body, or that there's some sort of soul sleep.

SM

[Lion]

kofh2u
You are treading close to the warning the Revelator wrote in these words:

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. Rev 22:28, 19.

You are adding definitions I believe were inspired by the father of lies and takes away the plain meaning of the text

spiritmech said:
The Christian definition of immortality of the soul is very different from the Greek/Platonic understanding of immortality of the soul. The major difference is that (in traditional Christian thought) the soul is created at conception, while the Greeks define a soul that existed before birth and had always existed.

You can deny the immortality of the soul, but only if you want to say we don't have a soul (we're just physical) or that there is a soul but it dies with the body, or that there's some sort of soul sleep.
---------------
Lion
The traditional belief of most Christian religions follows the pagan belief that there is some sort of invisible soul that leaves the body at death and goes somewhere. The belief is well nigh universal in both pagan and Christian religions. That does not, however, make it a fact.

Going back to the creation story, Gen. 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

When man ceases to breathe he is dead. Unless something intervenes within less than six or perhaps seven minutes there is no hope of reviving that person to a conscious state. I personally know of a girl whose body has been in a vegetative state for over thirty years, but there is no sign of any conscious voluntary life. She is clinically dead. So we have to define death as the cessation of voluntary ability.

The Platonic Greeks described the soul as having conscious feelings but having no ability to change the situation, as in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

This Platonic idea was adopted and embellished by the Catholic church into heaven, hell, purgatory, and limbo. The Catholic idea is, I understand it, is that most souls are not worthy of heaven so they have to spend a few thousand years in purgatory to purge the evil out of the soul. This has led to abuses by some priests abusing the idea of praying souls out of purgatory. Limbo is for infants.

When the protestant reformation took hold in Europe, the reformers were all from the Catholic faith. Luther preached salvation by grace, not by doing penance, good deeds. Other reformers attacked different points of doctrine and so became other denominations, but most of them still retained some of the Catholic ideas, notably immortality of the soul and an eternally burning hell and Sunday worship. This accounts for certain Bible texts being translated incorrectly.

[NeilUnreal]

The documents that form the Bible were written over a long period of time in various cultural settings. There are clear differences in the perceived nature of death and the soul within both Testaments, but even more so between the two Testaments, after Hellenism had more strongly influenced earlier Hebrew beliefs.

Trying to precisely reconcile all the views on death and the soul within the Bible is likely to be an unachievable task. Even if there is one metaphysically correct view that we can know, the cultural settings in which the authors wrote makes the task daunting and fraught with the possibility of error. The best we can do is to try to understand what each author was saying within the relevant context, and to think and pray about how their views and our own views should inform our spirituality.

-Neil

[Cynic Sage]

The crucifixion initiated the new heaven and the new earth which is Christ. All who believe are in this new place, paradise, is with Christ, today.

Rev 20 in 21st century language makes secular and theological sense. Read it with an open mind, because the kingdom of God is within:

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead (historically), small and great, stand before God, (imaged in the Homoiousian Mind); and the books (of Scripture, Old and New) were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life (man's phylogenetic memory within the Collective Unconscious Mind): and (in total phylogenetic memory) the dead were judged out of those things which were "written," (genetically reproduced in every next generation) in the books (of the mind), according to their works.

Rev. 20:13 And (the Collective Unconscious Mind), the SEA, gave up the dead (MEMORIES) which were in it; and (these genetic records of men concerning their) DEATH and (the insanity of the) hell (of man's past actons) delivered up the dead (memories) which were in them: and they were (self) judged, every man according to their works (as described in that Book of Matthew 25:31- 46).

Rev. 20:14 And DEATH (by virtue of our eternal phylo-genetic memories which are reborn in future generations) and (the concept of) HELL (viewed as a separate place of eternal punishment) were cast into (EXTINCTION), the lake of fire, (these ideas, death and Hell, no longer to be remembered). This is the SECOND DEATH (Extinction).


Rev. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life (the eternal phylogenetic memory within the Collective Unconscious Mind of the evolving Homoiousians) was cast into the lake of fire (which ismextinction).
Take two context pills and call me in the morning.</jest>:lol: