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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Free will.

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  • Free will.

    I know, not that again. This argument/debate is never ending and like the existence of god, there seems to be no evidence to back up the pro-free willers case. But, as I was meditating the other day I noticed, not that I never noticed it before, but I never associated it with the free will issue, but I noticed that the process of meditation itself is a battle of control between the conscious self and the constant onslaught of random thoughts arising from the unconscious. So there does seem to be a divide, where consciousness is not only an after the fact awareness of unconscious decisions, but has an ability in its own right to control or completely shut out unconscious activity. Haven't had a whole lot of time to think it through yet, just wondering what thoughts, pro or con, those of you still interested in this topic might have.

  • #2
    JimL,

    What is being called "free will" has to do with the fact we humans are self willed beings. Whether that "self will" is really "free" deserves debate. So when I refer to "free will" I am really using it to mean nothing more than being "self willed." [You will not find the term "free will" in the Bible BTW. Or the term "self will." But of persons having a will.]

    Different issues affect one's ability to make choices.
    Last edited by 37818; 04-13-2017, 12:08 PM.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #3
      Free will is impossible in a purely materialistic universe with the properties of our own. That is why I consider the existance of free will as evidence that our existance transcends the purely material.
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        Free will is impossible in a purely materialistic universe with the properties of our own. That is why I consider the existence of free will as evidence that our existence transcends the purely material.
        First, there is no objective evidence that anything transcends our physical existence.

        Second, your view that a 'purely' materialistic universe is some kind of robotic Newtonian mechanical universe with no possibility of free will, is a self imposed delusion. Based on the objective evidence of science alone the 'determinism' based on natural law is not a robotic Newtonian mechanical universe. The influence Chaos Theory alone the outcomes of any series of events beginning at time t, are variable and only restrained by Natural Laws.

        Third the alternative of Compatibilism provides an adequate alternative of the possibility of free will within a deterministic world. Seer and you may 'hand wave' away the possibility of compatibilism, but it indeed is a possibility.

        You asserted evidence! Please provide the objective evidence, and arguing from supposed ignorance of the 'subjective.'
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-13-2017, 01:47 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          First, there is no objective evidence that anything transcends our physical existence.
          show me a photo of a thought. Show me an emotion.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

            Third the alternative of Compatibilism provides an adequate alternative of the possibility of free will within a deterministic world. Seer and you may 'hand wave' away the possibility of compatibilism, but it indeed is a possibility.

            Nonsense Shuny, the free will of Compatibilism is not free. It is just as determined as anything else. To say that something is both free and determined is a contradiction.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              show me a photo of a thought. Show me an emotion.
              This is not the basis for the claim of objective evidence by Darth. It is vague argument from supposed argument from ignorance as to what you believve is a lack of evidence. This a fallacy big time! By the Way, emotions and thoughts can be observed and identified based on the neurological activity of the brain. There is absolutely no objective evidence that they are based on anything else
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-13-2017, 01:49 PM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                I know, not that again. This argument/debate is never ending and like the existence of god, there seems to be no evidence to back up the pro-free willers case. But, as I was meditating the other day I noticed, not that I never noticed it before, but I never associated it with the free will issue, but I noticed that the process of meditation itself is a battle of control between the conscious self and the constant onslaught of random thoughts arising from the unconscious. So there does seem to be a divide, where consciousness is not only an after the fact awareness of unconscious decisions, but has an ability in its own right to control or completely shut out unconscious activity. Haven't had a whole lot of time to think it through yet, just wondering what thoughts, pro or con, those of you still interested in this topic might have.
                That is what I have been saying for years Jim. I believe the conscious self plays an important causal role. For instance - you have two competing thoughts - I would really like that extra piece of cake, but I really need to watch my diet. I believe the conscious self, rationally, decides between the options then acts.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  This is not the basis fro the objective evidence. By the Way, emotions and thoughts can be observed and identified based on the neurological activity of the brain. There is absolutely no objective evidence that they are based on anything else
                  Where is your evidence that Compatibilism is correct? BTW, no you can not see thoughts. You only see neurological activity.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    This is not the basis fro the objective evidence. By the Way, emotions and thoughts can be observed and identified based on the neurological activity of the brain. There is absolutely no objective evidence that they are based on anything else
                    When you imagine a red bicycle and can see it in your mind, can you show me where is exists other than in your mind? All there is physically is at most some electrical activity in your brain. There is no bicycle there. No color red. It has absolutely no physical existence.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Nonsense Shuny, the free will of Compatibilism is not free. It is just as determined as anything else. To say that something is both free and determined is a contradiction.
                      Assertions based on an agenda are a 'hand wave' airball, and do not provide any basis for your rejection of compatibilism.

                      Waiting for you to come up with something else beside a Royal Decree of nonsense, which is meaningless.

                      I need a substantive argument against compatibilism.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        That is what I have been saying for years Jim. I believe the conscious self plays an important causal role. For instance - you have two competing thoughts - I would really like that extra piece of cake, but I really need to watch my diet. I believe the conscious self, rationally, decides between the options then acts.
                        . . . and the conscious self may be based on the neurological functions of the brain.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Assertions based on an agenda are a 'hand wave' airball, and do not provide any basis for your rejection of compatibilism.

                          Waiting for you to come up with something else beside a Royal Decree of nonsense, which is meaningless.

                          I need a substantive argument against compatibilism.
                          Then tell me how we can be both free and determined. And then please define free will. Let's see if you have a clue.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            . . . and the conscious self may be based on the neurological functions of the brain.
                            That is correct, the self is an emergent phenomenon.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              When you imagine a red bicycle and can see it in your mind, can you show me where is exists other than in your mind? All there is physically is at most some electrical activity in your brain. There is no bicycle there. No color red. It has absolutely no physical existence.
                              Exactly...
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

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