An intresting statement made by an atheist

[Jin-Roh]

This is actually a little depressing.

This is a statement made by Proffesser Thomas Nagel of New York University, as recorded in Jesus among other Gods (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/084991437X/qid=1046653212/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-9604896-2477662?v=glance&s=books) by Ravi Zacharias.



In speaking of the fear of religion, I don't mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established relgions...in virture of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I reffering to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper --namely the fear of religion itself... I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact the some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn't just that I don't believe in God naturally, hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the univers to be like that.

[Vorkosigan]

What's interesting about it?

[ItalianGold]

:zzz:

[jimbo]

Jin-Roh,

Though I am an atheist, I would not presume to speak for this professor. However, I would guess that he is saying this because he thinks that the Christian god would be just a bit wacky in the head if he were real.

Jimbo

[The Laughing Man]

Jin-Roh - Ick. How could anyone possibly see this professor as objective? I'm sure other atheists do, however. I think deep down, all atheists believe the same thing. It's not that they can't believe in God or don't see evidence of God. They just don't want there to be a God.

jimbo - Right. Whatever. He is real and he is not "wacky in the head," whatever that means.

[jimbo]

Jin-Roh,

According to the Bible, the Christian god likes people to burn animal caracasses to honor him-he likes savoring the smell of the burning flesh. This god thinks it is fine and dandy for people to keep slaves. This god repeatedly orders the massacres of women and children and he kills children himself. This god punishes children for the crimes of their ancestors. This god tortures people for eternity if they have trouble believing in him.

Yeah, I would say that if this god existed, he could reasonably be described as being just a little bit wacky. As an atheist, though, I think that this god is a mythical figure--a war god of an ancient culture.

Jimbo

[flipper]

Jinx:
I think deep down, all atheists believe the same thing. It's not that they can't believe in God or don't see evidence of God. They just don't want there to be a God.


And I think, deep down, all Christians are so scared of dying and dissipation that they've seized onto an inviting piece of mythic flotsam that their culture tossed in front of them, and which they struggle to rationalize into a boat, all the while fighting off the nagging doubts and univited thoughts of the vast abyss that hangs below them.

It's not that they can't analyse the evidence and arguments dispassionately, they just don't want to because they're scared of looking objective reality in the face. They can't dare to look at the lack of evidence for their position. Consequently, they'll believe all sorts of rubbish about people getting swallowed by whales and spat out alive, resurrections, a global flood, a 6,000 year old earth, and a fiat cosmos.

Does that sound like a realistic and fair assessment of your and your brethren's motives to you? Do you think I'm wrong, or that I'm painting with too broad a brush?

I certainly do.

[The Laughing Man]

03-02-2003 @ 08:23 PM
jimbo:According to the Bible, the Christian god likes people to burn animal caracasses to honor him-he likes savoring the smell of the burning flesh.

Anthropomorphism. What pleased God about animal sacrifices was that the people were following his commands and seeking forgiveness of their sins.


This god thinks it is fine and dandy for people to keep slaves.

Anyone for a crash course on the difference between Jewish "slavery" and the slavery most people think about?


This god repeatedly orders the massacres of women and children.

And, as master over life and death, He's the only one justified in making such orders.


He kills children himself.

See above. Do you think you are more moral than God? Are you more capable than God in determining such things?


This god punishes children for the crimes of their ancestors.

See above questions.


This god tortures people for eternity if they have trouble believing in him.

That's not why people go to Hell, my friend. Plenty of people who do believe in Him will end up in Hell because of various reasons: unforgiven sins, false ideas about salvation, etc.


Yeah, I would say that if this god existed,

He does exist.


he could reasonably be described as being just a little bit wacky.

That is not reasonable, nor is it rational, logical, educated or open-minded.


As an atheist, though, I think that this god is a mythical figure--a war god from an ancient culture.

And as a former-atheist, I know that is false and that God exists.

[The Laughing Man]

03-02-2003 @ 08:52 PM
flipper:Jinx:

And I think, deep down, all Christians are so scared of dying and dissipation that they've seized onto an inviting piece of mythic flotsam that their culture tossed in front of them, and which they struggle to rationalize into a boat, all the while fighting off the nagging doubts and univited thoughts of the vast abyss that hangs below them.

It's not that they can't analyse the evidence and arguments dispassionately, they just don't want to because they're scared of looking objective reality in the face. They can't dare to look at the lack of evidence for their position. Consequently, they'll believe all sorts of rubbish about people getting swallowed by whales and spat out alive, resurrections, a global flood, a 6,000 year old earth, and a fiat cosmos.

Does that sound like a realistic and fair assessment of your and your brethren's motives to you? Do you think I'm wrong, or that I'm painting with too broad a brush?

I certainly do.

Well, good, but what's ironic is that you've painted a rather accurate picture of typical atheist beliefs about Christians. There's plenty of atheists and atheist websites that expound such things about Christians: www.infidelguy.com, www.ffrf.org, www.infidels.org, www.atheists.org, etc.

[Celsus]

He is merely rephrasing Bakunin, who wrote, "If God existed, it would be necessary to abolish him." Ravi Zacharias is a well-known quote miner and I've seen the out-of-context readings of Nietzche and Russell (and plenty of ad homs to boot) that make anything he says about his opponents suspect.

[flipper]

Celsus:

True enough, re Zacharias. The Nietzsche of Ravi Zacharias (especially in the context of his parable of the insane man) bears little resemblance to the Nietzsche that I learnt about in philosophy at University.

Jinx: I don't think that my caricature really encapsulates the true position of all Christians (or even most), nor does it encapsulate the views of most atheists.

From what I have read, this really is why some Christians believe but it's a sad foundation to build on. I suspect it more likely that most people will believe in what they are incalcated with by their family and culture at a reasonably early age, and the more emotional and intellectual effort they invest in the exploration and development of a world view, the more tenaciously they will defend it. Yes, this goes for atheism (and my views too). Being aware of the problem is the first step in trying to minimize its effects.

I believe that there are also those Christians who believe as they do based on the merits of Christianity as a path, and are able to sustain their belief rationally, given a certain set of unknowables (you call this "faith").

The more aggressive the Christian, the more I skeptical I am regarding the health of the foundations of their belief.

[Jaltus]

The more aggressive the Christian, the more I skeptical I am regarding the health of the foundations of their belief.I think that is true for any belief system, even atheism.


I believe that there are also those Christians who believe as they do based on the merits of Christianity as a path, and are able to sustain their belief rationally, given a certain set of unknowables (you call this "faith").
How about a small change?

I believe that there are also those Christians who believe as they do based on the merits of Christianity as a path, and are able to sustain their belief rationally, given a certain set of unknowables (we call this "life").

[Jin-Roh]

03-02-2003 @ 06:23 PM
jimbo:
According to the Bible, the Christian god likes people to burn animal caracasses to honor him-he likes savoring the smell of the burning flesh. This god thinks it is fine and dandy for people to keep slaves. This god repeatedly orders the massacres of women and children and he kills children himself. This god punishes children for the crimes of their ancestors. This god tortures people for eternity if they have trouble believing in him.


:no:

Once again Jimbo, you betry ignorance of Christianity. Once again, you use the "God a Christianity just suck" as justification for your universal negative ("I know God doesn't exist"). And once again you fail to make a reasonable, objective, case against Christianity.

I will second Jinx72's statements. As a former atheist I can assure that God exists.

[flipper]

jaltus:


I think that is true for any belief system, even atheism.


Couldn't agree more. I had hoped that I'd made that clear elsewhere.



I believe that there are also those Christians who believe as they do based on the merits of Christianity as a path, and are able to sustain their belief rationally, given a certain set of unknowables (we call this "life").

Nyes. I was rather driving at the idea that God's existence couldn't be proven empirically, but require another component.

Life is also quite ineffable but there are certain givens that lie at its foundation from a human perspective. Death and taxes being two of them.

Jin-Roh:

Jimbo's objections to the notion of a compassionate god make sense when viewed from a humanist perspective. Much of the OT seems apparently contradictory to the softer approach of the NT and the God of the OT seems more capricious and capable of personal affront by the actions of the puny finite insects whose future actions are already laid bare before him.

I generally avoid the theological arguments, especially regarding the nature of God because I don't really see their point when you're a non-believer. However, I will say that I don't think it would be possible for a finite creature to accurately judge the motives of an infinite and omnipotent being, no matter how bizarre and capricious they might appear. Even if they appeared cruel and even monstrous, upon what standard would the clay base its judgement of the potter?

[jimbo]

jin-Roh,


Once again Jimbo, you betry ignorance of Christianity.

I don't understand what you mean. Did I write anything at all that was inaccurate?


Once again, you use the "God a Christianity just suck" as justification for your universal negative ("I know God doesn't exist").

Hmmm...that is not the point I was trying to make. I did not write that because your god sucks he does not exist. I suppose he could exist and suck in very big way, but this of course would go against many of the qualities Christians have attibuted to him. What I was doing above was providing some reasons why atheists think that this god would be a bit wacky if he did exist.


And once again you fail to make a reasonable, objective, case against Christianity.

Interesting--I was not aware that we were specifically debating the existence of your god on this thread. In the future, please let me know where you expect me to debate on this topic prior to accusing me of failing to make my case. Thanks.

Have a nice day.

Elden

[jimbo]

Flipper,


I generally avoid the theological arguments, especially regarding the nature of God because I don't really see their point when you're a non-believer. However, I will say that I don't think it would be possible for a finite creature to accurately judge the motives of an infinite and omnipotent being, no matter how bizarre and capricious they might appear. Even if they appeared cruel and even monstrous, upon what standard would the clay base its judgement of the potter?

If what you are saying is true and we puny humans lack the ability to call the Christian god evil, then Christians cannot pretend that they know this god is "good."

Cheers,

Jimbo

[flipper]

Good by whose standards? Let us both assume we are Christians who believe that the bible is an accurate communication from God, and in the bible, God is referred to as "good", then presumably we must accept that description as a true one, even if some of his actions would, from our limited perspective, not appear to fit the description of "good".

After all, "good" from our sense might not be good from his sense. The 10 Commandments, after all, were developed for humans to follow - they need not necessarily bind the creator.

[Sauron]

03-02-2003 @ 05:04 PM
Jin-Roh:

This is actually a little depressing.

This is a statement made by Proffesser Thomas Nagel of New York University, as recorded in Jesus among other Gods (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/084991437X/qid=1046653212/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-9604896-2477662?v=glance&s=books) by Ravi Zacharias.


Does the entire quote exist anywhere - you know, without the ellipses and with context?

[Sauron]

03-02-2003 @ 06:59 PM
Jinx72:



Anyone for a crash course on the difference between Jewish "slavery" and the slavery most people think about?


Yes. Please start a new thread.




See above. Do you think you are more moral than God? Are you more capable than God in determining such things?


Circular argument. You are assuming the existence of such a god. No one has granted you that as an a priori accepted assumption yet.

[Captain Ochre]

03-03-2003 @ 06:00 AM
Sauron:



Yes. Please start a new thread.




Circular argument. You are assuming the existence of such a god. No one has granted you that as an a priori accepted assumption yet.

You couldn't grant the the Christian/theistic God exists for the sake of argument?

That could hamper your attempts (if any) to argue that god doesn't exist . . .

[Sauron]

03-02-2003 @ 10:12 PM
Captain Ochre:



You couldn't grant the the Christian/theistic God exists for the sake of argument?

That could hamper your attempts (if any) to argue that god doesn't exist . . .

Huh?

If I don't grant the original claim, then how would it hamper my efforts to prove the non-existence of the same claim that I haven't permitted?

I don't grant that leprechauns exist. Does that hamper my efforts to prove that leprechuans don't exist? Of course not.

[jimbo]

Flipper,


Good by whose standards? Let us both assume we are Christians who believe that the bible is an accurate communication from God, and in the bible, God is referred to as "good", then presumably we must accept that description as a true one, even if some of his actions would, from our limited perspective, not appear to fit the description of "good".

If we did not know what "good" meant when it was applied to God, then it would be pointless to even use the term. We might as well call God "kqifiasd." To take another example: if we described God as "orange" and "slimy" but specified that when these words were applied to God's infinite nature, they meant something altogether different from their commonly accepted definitions and were ultimately unknowable to human beings, then it would be pointless for us to use these words in the first place.


After all, "good" from our sense might not be good from his sense.

If our sense of "good" does not apply to God, then we cannot honestly call him "good." It could be that what is "good" for God might be "bad," "wrong" and "evil" for humans.

The point is this: These words are part of the human vocabulary. They were created by human beings and have commonly understood meanings for human beings. Once these words are removed from the context of human knowledge and experience, they become meaningless.

Jimbo

[Vorkosigan]

"The Christian religion, when ... brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind." (Thomas Jefferson - letter to Moses Robinson March 23, 1801)

Do you think Jinx knows that Jefferson meant a Christianity stripped of its claims for the divinity of Jesus?

[Blake Reas]

03-03-2003 @ 02:23 AM
jimbo:

Jin-Roh,

According to the Bible, the Christian god likes people to burn animal caracasses to honor him-he likes savoring the smell of the burning flesh. This god thinks it is fine and dandy for people to keep slaves. This god repeatedly orders the massacres of women and children and he kills children himself. This god punishes children for the crimes of their ancestors. This god tortures people for eternity if they have trouble believing in him.

Yeah, I would say that if this god existed, he could reasonably be described as being just a little bit wacky. As an atheist, though, I think that this god is a mythical figure--a war god of an ancient culture.

Jimbo

And what would you do if you where an Omnipotent God? I am really glad that you think you know what God Should do! That is truly amazing Atheist always talk about how there is no God but as soon as a Theist brings up the conversation, you guys always know exactly how God should be, To be blount that is ridicoulous!

By His Grace, For His Glory,
Blake

[johnransom]

03-03-2003 @ 05:04 AM
Vorkosigan:

"The Christian religion, when ... brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind." (Thomas Jefferson - letter to Moses Robinson March 23, 1801)

Do you think Jinx knows that Jefferson meant a Christianity stripped of its claims for the divinity of Jesus?

No, he didn't, at least not in this case. Here's a fuller rendition of the quote:



The eastern States will be the last to come over, on account of the dominion of the clergy, who had got a smell of union between Church and State, and began to indulge reveries which can never be realised in the present state of science. If, indeed, they could have prevailed on us to view all advances in science as dangerous innovations, and to look back to the opinions and practices of our forefathers, instead of looking forward, for improvement, a promising groundwork would have been laid. But I am in hopes their good sense will dictate to them, that since the mountain will not come to them, they had better go to the mountain: that they will find their interest in acquiescing in the liberty and science of their country, and that the Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of its benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind.

Jefferson was talking about a failed attempt to effect a national religion by clergy who cheapened Christianity by their skeptical attitude towards modern scientific advances (such as they were back then). The "purity and simplicity" he spoke of was merely freedom from such anti-intellectual bias.

[kendal]

Ex-atheist.com
you really must have gotten a different message than I got. It appears that the man is saying he doesn't want there to be a God. This is not uncommon to hear among many atheists,although some claim to be different. I however do not worry that atheists will take over the world because the one world religion will be evolution mixed with secular christianity,so I doubt there will be any atheists soon,or many true christians either.It will be a false religion having a form of godliness yet denying it's power. So we all can just sit back and watch.Prophecy is being fulfilled even faster today,and who ever wrote the holy bible new the future very well,amen.
How do you terrify an atheist? tell him you saw God! hee,hee,hee
Nothing personal,just a little humor.

[EvoUK]

In speaking of the fear of religion, I don't mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established relgions...in virture of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I reffering to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper --namely the fear of religion itself... I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact the some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn't just that I don't believe in God naturally, hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the univers to be like that.

And he was doing so well up until the last sentence or two...

I suppose if the christian god (for example, I'm just picking a god out the hat here... :ahem:) did exist, then it would kind of suck- "he's" not the kind of god I would love in any sense of the word- but let's not get ahead of ourselves- once it's shown that this god exists, then I'll start worrying about petty concerns like what this gods persona is like.

[Seasanctuary]

but let's not get ahead of ourselves- once it's shown that this god exists, then I'll start worrying about petty concerns like what this gods persona is like.

As soon as the Christians admit their God is chaotic and enjoys his evil too, then I'll be worried their religion is coherent enough to be true.
:eek:

[Gilgaron]

I'd assume he is troubled by the Problem of Evil and has decided that if a deity is behind it all then the god is wicked.

[HRG_new]

And what would you do if you where an Omnipotent God? I am really glad that you think you know what God Should do! That is truly amazing Atheist always talk about how there is no God but as soon as a Theist brings up the conversation, you guys always know exactly how God should be, To be blount that is ridicoulous!


No. Atheists just take what theists are telling them about the character, properties, actions etc. of their alleged God, and then draw the consequences - including those that theists dare not draw.

[kendal]

Jin-Roh,

Though I am an atheist, I would not presume to speak for this professor. However, I would guess that he is saying this because he thinks that the Christian god would be just a bit wacky in the head if he were real.

Jimbo

:ahem: God Wacky?,or do you mean you think God appears wacky in the head because he hasn't destroyed the wicked yet?

[EvoUK]

or do you mean you think God appears wacky in the head because he hasn't destroyed the wicked yet?

"He" created them- don't see why he's so upset that they fell for the trap he set them.


Atheists just take what theists are telling them about the character, properties, actions etc. of their alleged God, and then draw the consequences - including those that theists dare not draw.

[kendal]

And he was doing so well up until the last sentence or two...

I suppose if the christian god (for example, I'm just picking a god out the hat here... :ahem:) did exist, then it would kind of suck- "he's" not the kind of god I would love in any sense of the word- but let's not get ahead of ourselves- once it's shown that this god exists, then I'll start worrying about petty concerns like what this gods persona is like.
Wow,so then you believe that the creator should bow down to what he has created? Frankly,I am surprised God didn't destroy all of man-kind by now.
If thats not mercy,what is?
People have committed all sorts of crimes against one another,yet they say God
is cruel,and mean. What is wrong with this snap shot?
What kind of human being (not judging anyone,just an example) would kill their own unborn,flesh and blood baby,who had not ever comitted any sin?
And then try to force the law to keep abortion legal?
That is what I call sick,cruel and unusual. If you want to call God names,look at man-kind first,o.k?
Those who say they wouldn't love their maker because of who he is and what he stands for may find out one day that they were all wrong,and wish that someone had told them,yet people try to help them now,and they won't accept the truth from them,they would rather believe a lie instead of the truth. It's not what people don't understand about the bible that upsets them so much,it's what they do understand from it that makes them so upset.They don't want a God who says "No" or who won't accept every kind of behavior.
Isn't this alot like a child saying they cannot love their own Father because he had rules in the house and a standard to live by?
It's so odd how some people claim that people are better than God,and how they worship the created instead of the creator.

[EvoUK]

Wow,so then you believe that the creator should bow down to what he has created?

Well, as a member of the species which created your god- I'm perfectly within my rights basically. As an idea- it sucks, and IMO needs to be replaced- though it'll take a long time to happen.


Frankly,I am surprised God didn't destroy all of man-kind by now.

Your rather depressing view of mankind not withstanding- I'm suprised you expect to be taken seriously... :ahem:


People have committed all sorts of crimes against one another,yet they say God is cruel,and mean. What is wrong with this snap shot?

Nothing. It's quite simple really- according to your story- god sets up the conditions in which sin enters into the world, then blames mankind for being something he created. It's like kicking a Ford because it won't become a BMW.

As the being that is direcly responcible for "evil" (assuming for the sake of argument that he eixsts to start with), he can't exactly get miffed when it exists in the world now, can he.


What kind of human being (not judging anyone,just an example) would kill their own unborn,flesh and blood baby,who had not ever comitted any sin?

An illogical one which should be put away for the sake of society.

Why?


If you want to call God names,look at man-kind first,o.k?

I have absolutely no qualms analysing the character described as "God". I don't need to look at humanity first before I criticise any other fictional character, do I.


Those who say they wouldn't love their maker because of who he is and what he stands for may find out one day that they were all wrong,and wish that someone had told them,yet people try to help them now,and they won't accept the truth from them,they would rather believe a lie instead of the truth.

If you god exists, and he as described in the bible- I absolutely wouldn't love him. I find him contemptable and heinous to the extreme, and have no amount of respect for him at all. However, him being the all powerful, illogical being we know him to be- I wouldn't have much of a choice in worshipping him (as one would do any evil dictator) in order to escape the moral abomination known as "hell".

However, again, you're getting ahead of yourself. If you show he exists, and is as described in the bible- then we can get somewhere. Otherwise, we're merely discussing hypothetical situations.


They don't want a God who says "No" or who won't accept every kind of behavior.

:rofl:

Wonderfully put- sums up precisely the strawman set up by many of your ilk- we don't want god to exist because we don't want to act morally- I love it...

How about: people don't want a god that sets up the conditions for evil and sin to exist in the world, then punishes mankind for eternity due to his own creation, unless they spend their lives in fawning adoration to him.


It's so odd how some people claim that people are better than God,and how they worship the created instead of the creator.

1) morally (and logically), I consider myself, and the vast majority of mankind, to be vastly superior to your god.

2) I don't worship anything- another silly stawman.

[kendal]

Jin-Roh,

According to the Bible, the Christian god likes people to burn animal caracasses to honor him-he likes savoring the smell of the burning flesh. This god thinks it is fine and dandy for people to keep slaves. This god repeatedly orders the massacres of women and children and he kills children himself. This god punishes children for the crimes of their ancestors. This god tortures people for eternity if they have trouble believing in him.

Yeah, I would say that if this god existed, he could reasonably be described as being just a little bit wacky. As an atheist, though, I think that this god is a mythical figure--a war god of an ancient culture.

Jimbo
:smile: Now you just gave us all the proof we needed to know that you have
totally mis-understood the whole bible,and have taken it way out of context.
God does not kill and destroy the innocent. If an innocent person does die,it is usually their time,or they were killed by the wicked,like in the case of our beloved brother before us named Stephen.
God hates wickedness,and if you do not understand that, thats your own fault,because to demand that God bow down to his creation is evil,and wrong.
Look at what people have done to each other without any good reason at all!
I would say and be totally right when I say it,that sinful and wicked man is the evil ones,not a loving God who holds the beat of your heart in his hand at this very moment.If you don't think there should be a price to pay for evil,then we understand what your true motives are. Wickedness must be punished. Were there any innocent people in Sodom & Gomorrah? God doesn't destroy those who are innocent,he loves the innocent.
Who on earth is innocent?
If you were a holy God,you would want people to get their act together too,before humbling yourself to come to earth in the flesh.,and be put on the cross to die for all the sins of the human race.

[kendal]

So,you get to judge the Holy God,right?
From your way of thinking,it truly appears you hate discipline of any kind.
God is not mean to those who know about him,and live for him.
If you don't believe a lake of fire exists for Ac,satan and the wicked,then what is it that you would be afraid of? For sure not any kind of authority,right?
No rules is the way you like it,right?
You would have to humble yourself before you can understand anything about the God of the holy bible. When I was worldly,I couldn't understand the bible no matter how I tried,my motives were all wrong back then,and many people are not suppose to understand the bible anyway. The wicked were not meant to understand it,they have no love for truth,so God will send them strong delusions.
The words of the bible is foolishness to those who are perishing.
God is the greatest person to ever come into my life,and when I truly got saved,I haven't looked back,and nor do I ever want to.
I cannot expect you to understand this,but maybe a little respect for those who do might be nice.
A mythical character is not who I saw when I saw Jesus Christ,he is the real thing,amen.
If you really loved life,you would be attracted to God,but many worldly people want no rules so they pay the price for not having any rules to live by.
Rebelliousness has no sanity in it,and no good reasoning.

[Bob the Builder]

So,you get to judge the Holy God,right?
From your way of thinking,it truly appears you hate discipline of any kind.

Here's where you're going wrong - you have no basis for this statement at all. It's just another whacky reason some Christians invented to explain why people "reject" their god.

I put reject in quotes because you have to believe in something to reject it. You do realise that an atheist saying "I don't believe in any gods" doesn't mean "well I believe there are gods out there but I don't want to follow their rules", don't you?

[jason]

This is actually a little depressing.

This is a statement made by Proffesser Thomas Nagel of New York University, as recorded in Jesus among other Gods (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/084991437X/qid=1046653212/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-9604896-2477662?v=glance&s=books) by Ravi Zacharias.
I've seen the quote from Nagel in other places as well. AFAIK it is an accurate quote and it is not out of context.

An interesting admission by Nagel.

Ever read, "What is it like to be a Bat ?" or am I thinking of the wrong Tommy Nagel (I don't think I am).

Jason

[EvoUK]

Kendel- you're being absurd again.


So,you get to judge the Holy God,right?

My species created him- I see no reason why not.


From your way of thinking,it truly appears you hate discipline of any kind.

And what is my way of thinking, exactly, which means that because I don't accept the paultry evidence you've put forward for your claims I must therefore hate discipline?

This is the usual silly theist "reason" for why there are atheists out there- utterly lacking any any kind of support of course- but then they're used to making assertions without supporting them, right?


God is not mean to those who know about him,and live for him.

Really? I see no correlation between belief in your god and happiness or a better quality of life- perhaps you have some studies to [gasp] back up your assertions?


If you don't believe a lake of fire exists for Ac,satan and the wicked,then what is it that you would be afraid of?

Two things:

1) hell isn't a punishment for the wicked, it's a punihsment for non-belief.
2) I don't have to be afraid of punishment in order to act morally in society.


For sure not any kind of authority,right?

Please explain to me why one who acts morally because he/she is afraid of being punished is more moral than someone who does it without any fear of such punishment...


No rules is the way you like it,right?

Rules are self-imposed and also set down by society. I have no problems with them as I see the logic behind most of them.


You would have to humble yourself before you can understand anything about the God of the holy bible.

Translation:

You have to believe in god in order to understand the only evidence for gods existence- a book which claims he exists!

I have no requirement for faith-googles thanks.


God is the greatest person to ever come into my life,and when I truly got saved,I haven't looked back,and nor do I ever want to.

I pity you.


Rebelliousness has no sanity in it,and no good reasoning.

[yawn]

Same old tired, worn out accusations and "arguments". You bore me.

[kendal]

What a huge crock of dung you just strung up with yourself!!!
Why don't you understand that some of us also were worldly like you once?
We understand what your motives are alot better than you think we do,amen.
You have nothing to fear as a child of God,and for those who die in Christ,he took the sting out of death for us. It is the rebellious,and the lost who is full of fear,and mostly because they know there must be a God,yet cannot allow themselves to accept it.
The lost has everything to fear with nothing good to ever come of their lives if they stay lost. There won't be any atheists soon,but if you don't want to serve the false god of this world,you might want to really consider accepting the true God of the holy bible. Don't live in fear and agony for even one more day. Learn what joy that lasts feels like for once. Humble that nappy self for once and find out how good it feels to know you don't have to worry about your life anymore,and that you a loved completly.Nothing can compare to-
The freedom you have in Christ Jesus!!!
Give God a real try for once,and sleep good at night for the very first time.
God is worth it all,amen.

[kendal]

Don't pity me precious,look at the mess you have made before you judge any one who is a christian. Actually the bible isn't all it took to convince me that God exists,but that is none of your business now is it?The bible should be enough,but I didn't take the easy road. I was way too stubborn for that. We pay for being stubborn and the bible knows what to say about those who are stubborn,and it's all true. Taking the hard road has a heavy price. Are you sure you want more surprizes,headaches,and mass disappointments? when I was worldly,all my worldly friends were very unhappy and depressed as I was,and they all complained,and most said they were always bored unless they found something mean spirited to do,ect.... Then they would feel sad some more.
As long as you behave like a heathen,all attempts to reason with you would be futile.
I am happy now,and I don't ever look back,amen.

[kendal]

You think most christians are saved because they fear burning in the lake of fire?
That is so crazy!!!
I didn't even hear about the lake of fire until after I chose to be saved.
I don't think you can convince someone that there is a lake of fire if they don't even believe that God will use it to punish a wicked people. It is evil not to believe in God because God gives us evidence that he made the earth,and everything in it.To claim God doesn't exist makes you exactly what the bible says you are. I didn't say it,but I believe it.
many people think they are wise in their own eyes.
If the bible is not true to you,why would you even bother to worry at all about these issues?
Have you ever seen the visual bible? You really should sometime.

[kendal]

If that is true about what you say you believe,then prove it!
Don't hang around the christians. It seems to me that your hatred of God is why you are here. You want to turn others away from God so they will be just as lost and bitter as you are.
What other reason would you have to be here?
Not only do you believe God,and the bible,you are no doubt a creationist at heart too,but because you chose to rebel against God like your father the devil,you make such claims as you do about how you believe in fables and how fairytales seem true to you so people will feel sorry for you and not hold it against you for the things you claim.Just admit the truth and be done with it already.
Hey,this may shock you to some degree pretty hard,but we don't believe in Harry Potter either! If you keep going on as you are,not only will you depression increase,but you'll be serving the Antichrist when he gets power.There won't be an atheist still claiming to be one when that happens.If you truly are an atheist,though I doubt that very much,then this applies to you: It is the fool who says in his heart there is no God!

[kendal]

I think teen pregnancy,teen suicide,teen murderers, abortion, homosexual/lesbian sex (if you call it that) pornography,drug abuse,viagra,the pill, curse words, rape,cheating,lying,stealing,hate and jealousy all prove what the lack of fear does to a community,a family,a society,a government,a world.
Who did you say had morals or obeyed rules?
You know people who live moral lives around you that are not christians?
They don't break any laws? Not gonna happen in this life time .
Do you think getting drunk is o.k?

[kendal]

You worship yourself and man! Every body has a god and an idol.You love you!!!
You are like satan,and should that shock you?
Not really. Every knee shall bow to the holy God of Israel,the one true God,even yours,you shall see,amen.
You are a lover of yourself and man.
What you love,you worship,you adore,and you adorn,admire,ect.....
The antichrist and satan will not allow you to worship yourself for long when he will do anything to be worshiped,and since you are already ripe for the picking it shouldn't take much to push you over to the edge to the way he thinks. You have a god,and soon it will be satan when the AC gains power. You already serve satan,you just claim you don't know it yet. If you Keep on going down the road you are on,and you will end up in the same place with him.It will be too late one day if you don't think this over,and change your mind soon.Look at the world around you now! listen to the news. Inter-faithism is here already and they want to make it into the one world religion. Veri-chip is already being sold freely to the public now.Christians were warning people years ago that it would be. We are now in a time when the bible is being understood better than it ever has,because we have all of it happening in our generation,and it is very clear that whoever wrote the bible could see way into the future,and man cannot do that,God wrote the holy bible,he's the only one who could have,amen. You don't have to be a genius to know whats going on today or even a bible scholar,it's all over the place now.
The book of Daniel tells us that things will be revealed in the last days,and they are being revealed now. I really do hope you change your mind and really give God a chance,and I hope you do it soon.

[chsalvia]

Are you finished?

[LCD1]

So,you get to judge the Holy God,right?
Just judging her from the actions she was supposed to have taken.


From your way of thinking,it truly appears you hate discipline of any kind.
What discipline do I need? I think you're saying that we as a species are in need of discipline.


God is not mean to those who know about him,and live for him.
That's great. What about God coming down to the rest of the world, ala burning bush, sending a God born of a virgin, etc., to the rest of the world.


If you don't believe a lake of fire exists for Ac, satan and the wicked, then what is it that you would be afraid of?
I am not able to answer for anyone else, but I am not afraid of the "lake of eternal fire". I don't believe in it. What keeps me going on the "Straight and Level" are my feelings of "live and let live". I know that if I help others and reward those who likewise help (or at least leave alone) others, then without the need for punishment, I've help setup a positive feedback loop.


For sure not any kind of authority,right?
Again, human authority over our own lives is more effective than waiting to die to see "justice done".


No rules is the way you like it,right?
I don't think he said that.


You would have to humble yourself before you can understand anything about the God of the holy bible.
Why humble? Why not read it with full awareness of who and what you are and read it without predjudice. That means reading what is written from a human perspective.


When I was worldly,I couldn't understand the bible no matter how I tried,my motives were all wrong back then,and many people are not suppose to understand the bible anyway.
I understand the Bible, but don't like what it says in many places.


The wicked were not meant to understand it,they have no love for truth,so God will send them strong delusions.
How wonderful of your God. I bet when She decided to kill off all the first born of Egypt, She decided that hardening Pharoh's heart was the right way to have Her will be done. Instead of saying to Pharoh, "Hey, let my people go", or better yet, "How'd you like to join and become my people?", no, She had to do something that resulted in the deaths of innocent children.


The words of the bible is foolishness to those who are perishing.
Great quote. To bad it's from a book that uses itself as justification.


God is the greatest person to ever come into my life,
From my understanding, God is not a person. She is an omniscient, omnipowerful entity. If God was a person, than as a person, Her actions in the OT are absolutely horrid.


and when I truly got saved,I haven't looked back,and nor do I ever want to.
Great for you. I hope you are happy and your path serves you well. Just don't tell me I'm wicked because I don't need your God to feel good about myself or not want to rape and kill as there is "no authority". There is authority and it's ours.


I cannot expect you to understand this, but maybe a little respect for those who do might be nice.
Ditto. I have no quarrel with you, but I am not fond of being called "wicked" as I don't believe in the same God as you.


A mythical character is not who I saw when I saw Jesus Christ,he is the real thing,amen.
If He is real, where did you see him? Why won't He appear before more so that more can be saved, if that is what is required. Certainly, a compassionate and just God would want as many as possible to follow Her and Her word. As a parent, I try to always be there for my kids so why does'nt God, the Mother of us all, even attempt the same thing?


If you really loved life, you would be attracted to God,
Which one? Also, why does "love of life" = "belief in a deity"?


but many worldly people want no rules so they pay the price for not having any rules to live by.
Many "holier than thou" do the same and also pay a price for conceit and arrogance.


Rebelliousness has no sanity in it,and no good reasoning.
On the contrary, being a rebel can be a good thing. Opposing tyranny is one such good cause.

[kendal]

ex-atheist.com

:tongue: Pay no mind to the outrageous claims of atheists because there won't be any atheists before too long,satan won't allow it much longer,this is why evolution is now mixing with all the false pagan religions and occults.
There won't be any atheists in the one world religion that is forming at this very moment. The fables and fairytale believers have already started getting into the weak and corrupt churches. we knew this would happen. In the last days the majority of people would be lovers of only themselves,and the love of most would grow cold. They will have itchy ears only hearing what they wish to hear.They turn away from the sound truth of the holy bible to believe in fables.
Romans 1:20 tells us they are without excuse.The next several verses give even more information why.
Take comfort in knowing that even though these atheists will soon be non-existent,at least they will believe in a god,rather than not at all,and perhaps they could be saved? The one world religion may be their church soon,but maybe some of them will be saved and get out of babylon?
Prayer power sisters and brothers!!! :pray:

[kendal]

O.K. fable boy,you want people to actually believe that mankind would actually write a book like the Holy Bible,or could write such words on their own?

No Way!!!
If I said that you are proof to the theory that the dingbat exists,would that be correct?
I think you are a theist and that you are aware of it,but you have a good line for all the hootchy momma's out there in your neck of the woods.
You are mad at God,no doubt,and so you make believe that you actually believe in fables to fool people so they don't ever know what your real motives are. Nice try but satan is already using that one.
There is just no way that any intelligent life form can believe that there is no God,or in the evolution fairytale.
No man would write the words of the holy bible on his own! He would have to live by his own words,and no man would ever have that kind of wisdom.

[Cephas]

Kendal, just quit while you're ahead. While I admire your zeal, it will only give fresh, live ammunition for the atheistic guns to shoot down any necessity to believe.

As for me, I know I can't rationally explain anything with regard to my faith. That's why it's FAITH, after all. Some people believe, in their innermost parts, that there is something greater than the Here and Now, and Man. If that makes them, and me too, all fools, so be it. Let them, let us wallow in our folly. If there is no reason for existence, no far-reaching consequence for our actions--then there truly is no harm done. Even Hitler will one day be lost forever.

[rdalin]

You worship yourself and man! Every body has a god and an idol.You love you!!!
You are like satan,and should that shock you?
Not really. Every knee shall bow to the holy God of Israel,the one true God,even yours,you shall see,amen.
You are a lover of yourself and man.
What you love,you worship,you adore,and you adorn,admire,ect.....
The antichrist and satan will not allow you to worship yourself for long when he will do anything to be worshiped,and since you are already ripe for the picking it shouldn't take much to push you over to the edge to the way he thinks. You have a god,and soon it will be satan when the AC gains power. You already serve satan,you just claim you don't know it yet. If you Keep on going down the road you are on,and you will end up in the same place with him.It will be too late one day if you don't think this over,and change your mind soon.Look at the world around you now! listen to the news. Inter-faithism is here already and they want to make it into the one world religion. Veri-chip is already being sold freely to the public now.Christians were warning people years ago that it would be. We are now in a time when the bible is being understood better than it ever has,because we have all of it happening in our generation,and it is very clear that whoever wrote the bible could see way into the future,and man cannot do that,God wrote the holy bible,he's the only one who could have,amen. You don't have to be a genius to know whats going on today or even a bible scholar,it's all over the place now.
The book of Daniel tells us that things will be revealed in the last days,and they are being revealed now. I really do hope you change your mind and really give God a chance,and I hope you do it soon.Do you realize that you're babbling?

Just wondering.

[rdalin]

Kendal, just quit while you're ahead. While I admire your zeal, it will only give fresh, live ammunition for the atheistic guns to shoot down any necessity to believe.Ahead of what? As far as I can tell, Kendal is presenting us with a completely content-free stream of consciousness.

P.S. I see no "necessity to believe" (presuming that you're talking about your imaginary deity, that is).

[kendal]

You little crying atheists are here for what?

You want to Bash God just because you don't know him,and all the while you have nothing else to do with your time.
Stop the act!!!
Don't you get it yet?
There won't be any atheists soon.
The world is headed towards global unity and tolerance for everyone's religious views except the views of the Jesus Freaks!!!
:ahem:
To say there is no God will soon be a hate crime. They will no doubt use the atheists to frighten the Jesus Freaks so they will convert to the global church,but a true child of God cannot go back to Babylon or the secular life.
Once you've had a taste of God's goodness,you just cannot turn back,it wouldn't be worth it.
The reality of God's existence is the changed lives in people all over the world,but in the last days,there will be less true christians. There won't be any atheists though,none!
Take you pick because soon you'll have no choice about the whole thing.
Jesus FreaK,or ex-atheist hooked up to the global religious system?
Don't you get it?
I just want you to know what you are getting yourselves into.
I'm only 38 years old,and I have seen so much already,that I now know the holy bible is for real,amen. ( God has let me know he is real,amen.)
Why gamble with your life? Why not make it count for something for once?
If God could help me,whats your excuse?
Why not believe God with your own free will before you are forced to believe in a god?
The religious system of pagan Babylon is here again,which do you prefer,to choose freely while you still can or be forced?
Being a Jesus Freak may be more dangerous,but your life will at least have a great purpose,amen.

[rdalin]

You little crying atheists are here for what?

You want to Bash God just because you don't know him,and all the while you have nothing else to do with your time.
Stop the act!!!
Don't you get it yet?
There won't be any atheists soon.
The world is headed towards global unity and tolerance for everyone's religious views except the views of the Jesus Freaks!!!
:ahem:
To say there is no God will soon be a hate crime. They will no doubt use the atheists to frighten the Jesus Freaks so they will convert to the global church,but a true child of God cannot go back to Babylon or the secular life.
Once you've had a taste of God's goodness,you just cannot turn back,it wouldn't be worth it.
The reality of God's existence is the changed lives in people all over the world,but in the last days,there will be less true christians. There won't be any atheists though,none!
Take you pick because soon you'll have no choice about the whole thing.
Jesus FreaK,or ex-atheist hooked up to the global religious system?
Don't you get it?
I just want you to know what you are getting yourselves into.
I'm only 38 years old,and I have seen so much already,that I now know the holy bible is for real,amen. ( God has let me know he is real,amen.)
Why gamble with your life? Why not make it count for something for once?
If God could help me,whats your excuse?
Why not believe God with your own free will before you are forced to believe in a god?
The religious system of pagan Babylon is here again,which do you prefer,to choose freely while you still can or be forced?
Being a Jesus Freak may be more dangerous,but your life will at least have a great purpose,amen.I don't know about the rest of the little crying atheists, but I'm here for a good dose of Christian love and compassion. Thanks!

[kendal]

Ahead of what? As far as I can tell, Kendal is presenting us with a completely content-free stream of consciousness.

P.S. I see no "necessity to believe" (presuming that you're talking about your imaginary deity, that is).
:ahem: Hey, are you for real,Dude?
Snap out of it and wake up!
Do you take ridolin?
Get off the drugs,no wonder you can't stay on topic!!!

[rdalin]

:ahem: Hey, are you for real,Dude?
Snap out of it and wake up!
Do you take ridolin?
Get off the drugs,no wonder you can't stay on topic!!!Unfortunately, I can't stop taking the drugs, since my cholesterol count would shoot up to unacceptable levels. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

[kendal]

Love begats love. If I didn't love you all so much I wouldn't care where you ended up now would I?
You've got the love,I just took out the sissy!
You just can't sugar coat the word in a world like we have today!!!
I love you enough not to care if you get mad at me for awhile.

[rdalin]

Love begats love. If I didn't love you all so much I wouldn't care where you ended up now would I?
You've got the love,I just took out the sissy!
You just can't sugar coat the word in a world like we have today!!!
I love you enough not to care if you get mad at me for awhile.Unfortunately, your love will have to remain unrequited, since I regard you as a nasty little putz. I hope you appreciate that I didn't sugar coat that.

[kendal]

Unfortunately, I can't stop taking the drugs, since my cholesterol count would shoot up to unacceptable levels. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
:pray: I apologize,I didn't know you had health problems physically.
I hope you will be healed of all health problems in Christ Jesus's tender love & mercy,amen.

[kendal]

Unfortunately, your love will have to remain unrequited, since I regard you as a nasty little putz. I hope you appreciate that I didn't sugar coat that.
:teeth: Coming from someone like you,I couldn't expect anything else!
Thanks!

[rdalin]

:pray: I apologize,I didn't know you had health problems physically.
I hope you will be healed of all health problems in Christ Jesus's tender love & mercy,amen.If I relied on Christ Jesus to lower my cholesterol level, I'd be dead by now. Instead, I rely on Pravachol, which actually works.

BTW, I regard strangers praying for me as an incredibly offensive thing to do.

[kendal]

Do you realize that you're babbling?

Just wondering.
:tongue: Do you realize that you are representing Babel,and all pagan religious beliefs from ancient Babylon?

[kendal]

If I relied on Christ Jesus to lower my cholesterol level, I'd be dead by now. Instead, I rely on Pravachol, which actually works.

BTW, I regard strangers praying for me as an incredibly offensive thing to do.
:smile: If you feel that way,then you surely are not looking for any christian love.
also,I know people whose cholesterol went way down,and back to better than normal just by not eating pork!
I don't know if you eat pork or not,but for these people,not eating it ever again helped,and of course prayer,but you don't believe it,so why mention it to you right? I know the people,and it is real.
Why would prayer offend you? Do you feel offended by a God you don't believe exists?
Jesus Christ is real. I hope you will know this one day soon and accept him.

[rdalin]

:tongue: Do you realize that you are representing Babel,and all pagan religious beliefs from ancient Babylon?All by myself?

[rdalin]

:smile: If you feel that way,then you surely are not looking for any christian love.
also,I know people whose cholesterol went way down,and back to better than normal just by not eating pork!
I don't know if you eat pork or not,but for these people,not eating it ever again helped,and of course prayer,but you don't believe it,so why mention it to you right? I know the people,and it is real.
Why would prayer offend you? Do you feel offended by a God you don't believe exists?
Jesus Christ is real. I hope you will know this one day soon and accept him.I regard the term "Christian love" as an oxymoron.

Prayer offends me for the following reasons:

First, it conveys the message that you know better than I do what's best for me and what I want and need. My reaction to that is Mind Your Own Business! This is an incredibly arrogant thing to do, and I find it extremely irritating.

Second, using your beliefs, it's an attempt to violate my free will. I have exercised my free will to reject all religion, including Christianity. How dare you ask your god to violate that free will choice. Your god seems to regard free will as a crucially important thing, so you have no right to ask him to change my choice.

What possible reason is there for me to accept your claim that Jesus Christ is real? I'll answer for you: none.

[kendal]

Kendal, just quit while you're ahead. While I admire your zeal, it will only give fresh, live ammunition for the atheistic guns to shoot down any necessity to believe.

As for me, I know I can't rationally explain anything with regard to my faith. That's why it's FAITH, after all. Some people believe, in their innermost parts, that there is something greater than the Here and Now, and Man. If that makes them, and me too, all fools, so be it. Let them, let us wallow in our folly. If there is no reason for existence, no far-reaching consequence for our actions--then there truly is no harm done. Even Hitler will one day be lost forever.
:smile: Thanks truly for your advise. I am a blood bought,spirit filled,born again child of God. It's so sad to see people carry on the way they do when they are secular and lost.They cannot gamble with their lives so carelessly like that.
The world is now aware the need for God,yet they don't want to accept his word literally,so it's back to pagan Babylon for most of the world and worldly people. The atheists will have no choice but to change their views soon.
It's in the media about the plans for an inter-faith church.
It's a desperate attempt to stop hate crimes and religious intolerance.
They actually think the so called "Holy war" could have been started by people who have no tolerance for anothers religious beliefs,ect.....
Pagan babylon is back in full force today.

[kendal]

I regard the term "Christian love" as an oxymoron.

Prayer offends me for the following reasons:

First, it conveys the message that you know better than I do what's best for me and what I want and need. My reaction to that is Mind Your Own Business! This is an incredibly arrogant thing to do, and I find it extremely irritating.

Second, using your beliefs, it's an attempt to violate my free will. I have exercised my free will to reject all religion, including Christianity. How dare you ask your god to violate that free will choice. Your god seems to regard free will as a crucially important thing, so you have no right to ask him to change my choice.

What possible reason is there for me to accept your claim that Jesus Christ is real? I'll answer for you: none.
:ahem: No thanks for that little tid bit of rubish!!!
You shouldn't pretend one thing then act another in just a few seconds like you just did.You know good and well that I can't take away your free will,or anythink else for that matter. I'm probably alot smaller than you are,and it wouldn't be a fair fight at all I'm sure.
Yes, My Holy Father gave us free will,but for those who choose not to accept him why would they even bother to care,especially if they don't believe in him?
Soon,you may be the one charged with a hate crime. Bashing another person's religion is considered a hate crime. But I'm not in a religion,I have a relationship with God,His son & spirit,amen.
Religion simply means= returning back to Babylon.
Atheists won't be accepted very soon now.

[kendal]

All by myself?
:ahem: You are helping the cause,so I believe I have my answer to which direction you'll go in when the time comes.
Tisk,tisk,tisk.............
I had better hopes for you.

[rdalin]

:ahem: You are helping the cause,so I believe I have my answer to which direction you'll go in when the time comes.
Tisk,tisk,tisk.............
I had better hopes for you.People like you always resort to threats in the end.

I suggest you google Pascal's Wager and see why it's not a valid argument. There's a really good explanation on the about.com/religion/atheism and agnosticism home page.

[Beef_Cream]

Pascal’s Wager doesn’t work as an argument for God as it can be used for any God to represent the same thing. Ie. A muslim could use it to send us to hell. But Pascal never intended it to be used for an argument for God anyway. Not in the sense it is used.

As for prayer I think the situation is a little confused. Now I cannot speak for Kendal but I don’t think she would think that she does know what is best for you. Kendal could ask God to do this and that for you, but I doubt he takes orders from Kendal and I have a hunch that he would know about you. As for the free will, he won’t make you change you choice but he may appear a more plausible option. He can help you in numerous ways. One thing he won’t do is alter your free will.

[rdalin]

Pascal’s Wager doesn’t work as an argument for God as it can be used for any God to represent the same thing. Ie. A muslim could use it to send us to hell. But Pascal never intended it to be used for an argument for God anyway. Not in the sense it is used.I don't know how Pascal intended it, but I do know that as commonly stated it applies to a fair number of the remarks I see from Christians to atheists, which all boil down to "Repent or you're doomed for eternity."


As for prayer I think the situation is a little confused. Now I cannot speak for Kendal but I don’t think she would think that she does know what is best for you. Kendal could ask God to do this and that for you, but I doubt he takes orders from Kendal and I have a hunch that he would know about you. As for the free will, he won’t make you change you choice but he may appear a more plausible option. He can help you in numerous ways. One thing he won’t do is alter your free will.I'm sorry, but this just won't do. By praying to her god to lead me to Jesus (presumably), she is indeed saying that she knows better than I what's best for me. Whether her god would listen to her is irrelevant to the issue.

Your second argument doesn't hold up either. Consider that in all situations except one it's considered good to have evidence in order to make a valid decision. The one exception is the existence of the Christian god (so Christians claim), because if we had evidence that he actually existed our free will would be somehow abrogated and we'd have no choice but to believe. God's presence, in other words, is so overwhelming that all choice disappears. I've also been told many times that you first have to have faith, then evidence will be evident. If all this is true, and it presumably is from a Christian point of view, your god has to be strictly hands-off when it comes to me. Little hints are not allowed.

[kendal]

[QUOTE=rdalin]I don't know how Pascal intended it, but I do know that as commonly stated it applies to a fair number of the remarks I see from Christians to atheists, which all boil down to "Repent or you're doomed for eternity."

I'm sorry, but this just won't do. By praying to her god to lead me to Jesus (presumably), she is indeed saying that she knows better than I what's best for me. Whether her god would listen to her is irrelevant to the issue.

:pray: So then,you have relied on man's interpretation of scripture rather than trying to learn the bible for yourself,right?
In todays world,we cannot trust man to teach us the word of God.
Try letting God teach you his word and see what happens.
I don't own God,and I'm not his boss. God wants everyone to be saved.
you don't want to believe in God and thats why you accuse me of such ugly things.

people don't reject God because of the bible or other christians,they reject him because of their sin.

[FirstSunday33ad]

I don't know how Pascal intended it, but I do know that as commonly stated it applies to a fair number of the remarks I see from Christians to atheists, which all boil down to "Repent or you're doomed for eternity."

Pascal's wager: it is irrational to be an atheist. As it is impossible to prove God does not exist, you stand to lose everything if you are wrong and win nothing if you are right. Therefore, it is more rational to believe in God as you stand to win everything if you are right and lose nothing if you are wrong.

[rdalin]

So then,you have relied on man's interpretation of scripture rather than trying to learn the bible for yourself,right?
In todays world,we cannot trust man to teach us the word of God.
Try letting God teach you his word and see what happens.
I don't own God,and I'm not his boss. God wants everyone to be saved.
you don't want to believe in God and thats why you accuse me of such ugly things.

people don't reject God because of the bible or other christians,they reject him because of their sin.I have no idea how this pertains to what I said.

First, I have no interest in learning the bible.

Second, I firmly believe that no gods exist, so learning the words of a non-existent being would be folly indeed, as would letting this being teach me his non-existent word.

Third, going on your belief, I don't care what your god wants. I have no interest in him. That's my free will choice, and anyone who prays for that to change is violating my free will.

Fourth, saying that I don't want to believe in your god, or that I have rejected your god, is wrong. It is impossible for me to believe in your god, or any god. The whole idea is to me so ridiculous that I can't understand how anyone could swallow it.

Fifth, it seems impossible for theists of your stripe to engage in an argument like this without bringing up my supposed desire to sin. You don't know me, you don't know what I do, you don't know how I behave, and you're convinced I want to "sin." Well, sin is nothing more than a religious bugaboo. I reject the whole idea. I have never sinned, and never will. That sort of behavior is limited to theists. Make of that what you will.

You have no chance of ever persuading me of anything as long as you post foolishness like this. I'm all grown up, so threatening me with your god will be of no more avail than threatening me with the monster under the bed. Try logic, as that's the only thing I respect.

[FirstSunday33ad]

I have no idea how this pertains to what I said.

First, I have no interest in learning the bible.

Second, I firmly believe that no gods exist, so learning the words of a non-existent being would be folly indeed, as would letting this being teach me his non-existent word.

Third, going on your belief, I don't care what your god wants. I have no interest in him. That's my free will choice, and anyone who prays for that to change is violating my free will.

Fourth, saying that I don't want to believe in your god, or that I have rejected your god, is wrong. It is impossible for me to believe in your god, or any god. The whole idea is to me so ridiculous that I can't understand how anyone could swallow it.

Fifth, it seems impossible for theists of your stripe to engage in an argument like this without bringing up my supposed desire to sin. You don't know me, you don't know what I do, you don't know how I behave, and you're convinced I want to "sin." Well, sin is nothing more than a religious bugaboo. I reject the whole idea. I have never sinned, and never will. That sort of behavior is limited to theists. Make of that what you will.

You have no chance of ever persuading me of anything as long as you post foolishness like this. I'm all grown up, so threatening me with your god will be of no more avail than threatening me with the monster under the bed. Try logic, as that's the only thing I respect.

I like this reply. It is honest, revealing and direct. You don't believe in God therefore any objection to your behaviour or attitude based on the existence of God becomes moot.

It is sort of like telling me that God doesn't exist because of life on other worlds. Given that I don't think there is life on other worlds, the argument become ridiculous.

That said, given that you are convinced that God does not exist - why are you here?

[rdalin]

Pascal's wager: it is irrational to be an atheist. As it is impossible to prove God does not exist, you stand to lose everything if you are wrong and win nothing if you are right. Therefore, it is more rational to believe in God as you stand to win everything if you are right and lose nothing if you are wrong.Okay, you asked for it.

There are two problems with the wager. First, it assumes the existence of the Christian god. I believe, in fact, Pascal conceded that. This is called begging the question, and it's not valid in debates. If there is a god, there is no reason why it has to be the one you believe in. It could be the Muslim god, or the Hindu god, or the Parsee god, or the gods of the Greeks, or any of the thousands of gods that humankind has dreamed up over the centuries. It could be a malign god, who sends everyone to hell regardless of their belief. It could be a perverse god, who sends believers to hell and non-believers to heaven. It could be a jealous god, who sends to hell everyone who believes in a different god. It could be an indifferent god, who just leaves everyone hanging because he can't be bothered. And so on.

The second problem is even more serious. Whether or not it's more rational to believe in any particular god, there is an assumption that a person can decide what to believe in. Well, I can't, and I don't think anyone else can either. I am no more capable of believing in a god than I can believe I'm able to jump off the top of a tall building, flap my arms and fly away. I simply can't do it. If your god exists, he made me that way. Regardless of the type of god that does (or doesn't) exist, this problem dooms the wager.

Pascal's Wager is not an argument that can be taken seriously.

[rdalin]

I like this reply. It is honest, revealing and direct. You don't believe in God therefore any objection to your behaviour or attitude based on the existence of God becomes moot.

It is sort of like telling me that God doesn't exist because of life on other worlds. Given that I don't think there is life on other worlds, the argument become ridiculous.

That said, given that you are convinced that God does not exist - why are you here?By "here," I assume you mean on this forum.

I'm here because I like to discuss religion and atheism, and this is a forum which is set up for that. In case you weren't aware, Apologetics 301 is specifically intended for this type of discussion.

[FirstSunday33ad]

I agree, Pascal's wager doesn't work simply because it assumes the God that Pascal is saying it is irrational to disbelieve in. I was simply providing you with the definition as you stated you didn't know how Pascal meant his wager to be taken.

However, I would add that with regards to the Hindu's, Pascal is still the safe bet because Hinduism doesn't care what you believe only how you behave - Karma - so you could still believe in the “Christian God” [sic] and still be all right.


The second problem is even more serious. Whether or not it's more rational to believe in any particular god, there is an assumption that a person can decide what to believe in. Well, I can't, and I don't think anyone else can either. I am no more capable of believing in a god than I can believe I'm able to jump off the top of a tall building, flap my arms and fly away. I simply can't do it. If your god exists, he made me that way. Regardless of the type of god that does (or doesn't) exist, this problem dooms the wager.

Hog wash. Free choice does not doom the wager and your strident conviction that God does not exist is nothing more than needs satisfaction. You need God to not exist, therefore, God does not exist. Change your need requirements and guess what God will suddenly start existing.

[rdalin]

Hog wash. Free choice does not doom the wager and your strident conviction that God does not exist is nothing more than needs satisfaction. You need God to not exist, therefore, God does not exist. Change your need requirements and guess what God will suddenly start existing.This is sheer foolishness. You know nothing about me, and yet you're making this assumption. I won't bother to try to dissuade you, as it's obvious from this remark that you're not amenable to reason, at least not in this area.

[FirstSunday33ad]

By "here," I assume you mean on this forum.

I'm here because I like to discuss religion and atheism, and this is a forum which is set up for that. In case you weren't aware, Apologetics 301 is specifically intended for this type of discussion.

Yes, I was aware of that, but given your rather strident declamation that you had no interest whatsoever in the Bible or God, etc., it makes me wonder why you would come to a place where all they do is discuss preciously that. I have no interest in UFO's (don't think they exist, don't believe in life on other worlds, and think those who do are nuts) therefore I don't visit UFO chat rooms.

So your being here strikes me as a bit odd given your personal feelings toward religion and God in general.

[rdalin]

Yes, I was aware of that, but given your rather strident declamation that you had no interest whatsoever in the Bible or God, etc., it makes me wonder why you would come to a place where all they do is discuss preciously that. I have no interest in UFO's (don't think they exist, don't believe in life on other worlds, and think those who do are nuts) therefore I don't visit UFO chat rooms.

So your being here strikes me as a bit odd given your personal feelings toward religion and God in general.You asked, and I answered. It may be odd, and I may be strident, but I can live with that.

I assume you mean "precisely" rather than "preciously."

[FirstSunday33ad]

This is sheer foolishness. You know nothing about me, and yet you're making this assumption. I won't bother to try to dissuade you, as it's obvious from this remark that you're not amenable to reason, at least not in this area.


Yeah, that’s what everyone says about me. Don’t know why, I think I'm a paragon of tolerance.

Anyway, okay, so I don’t know anything about you, but I am reasonably certain that you can and have changed your opinions and beliefs – even ones you were once absolutely convinced were true. Maybe when you were a child you believed in Santa, but you don’t now that you are an adult. Maybe you were once convinced Clinton was a terrible President, but have change your opinion now that you see what a disaster Bush has been. The list can be endless. The fact is we ALL change our opinions as the events change and as we ourselves change.

Change the circumstances of your life and you would eventually change you opinions about God. For example, suppose you died and found yourself staring at the Creator of the Universe Himself – would you still say “He doesn’t exist”?

[FirstSunday33ad]

You asked, and I answered. It may be odd, and I may be strident, but I can live with that.

I assume you mean "precisely" rather than "preciously."

I'm glad you can live with it, I would hate to think you committed suicide because of something I asked.

- And no, I meant "preciously". :lol:

[rdalin]

Yeah, that’s what everyone says about me. Don’t know why, I think I'm a paragon of tolerance.

Anyway, okay, so I don’t know anything about you, but I am reasonably certain that you can and have changed your opinions and beliefs – even ones you were once absolutely convinced were true. Maybe when you were a child you believed in Santa, but you don’t now that you are an adult. Maybe you were once convinced Clinton was a terrible President, but have change your opinion now that you see what a disaster Bush has been. The list can be endless. The fact is we ALL change our opinions as the events change and as we ourselves change.

Change the circumstances of your life and you would eventually change you opinions about God. For example, suppose you died and found yourself staring at the Creator of the Universe Himself – would you still say “He doesn’t exist”?If this were to be the case, then I would have evidence of your god's existence, wouldn't I? It would be illogical of me to withhold belief under those circumstances. Since you have given me no evidence other than mere assertion, I have no reason to change my position.

And, BTW, I have neither said nor implied that I've never changed my opinion or belief about anything. When presented with evidence, beliefs must needs change. Therefore, this is merely a straw man argument on your part.

[FirstSunday33ad]

If this were to be the case, then I would have evidence of your god's existence, wouldn't I? It would be illogical of me to withhold belief under those circumstances. Since you have given me no evidence other than mere assertion, I have no reason to change my position.

And, BTW, I have neither said nor implied that I've never changed my opinion or belief about anything. When presented with evidence, beliefs must needs change. Therefore, this is merely a straw man argument on your part.

Well I'm sorry, but when I stated that you don't believe in God because it meets your needs not to, but that if those needs changed to where you needed to believe in God, you would, you stated "this is foolishness, you don't know anything about me". I was merely showing you that it wasn't foolishness and that I could reasonably state that you would change your beliefs if the need arose.

Now that we have got that out of the way, onward and upward....

[rdalin]

Well I'm sorry, but when I stated that you don't believe in God because it meets your needs not to, but that if those needs changed to where you needed to believe in God, you would, you stated "this is foolishness, you don't know anything about me". I was merely showing you that it wasn't foolishness and that I could reasonably state that you would change your beliefs if the need arose.

Now that we have got that out of the way, onward and upward....You haven't got anything out of the way.

I don't believe in any supernatural gods because I have drawn the conclusion that they don't exist. I have no "needs" other than my need to be rational and logical that cause me to say this.

Need doesn't enter into this. Evidence does. Proof does. Mere assertions are useless. Show me your evidence.

[Bob the Builder]

You need God to not exist, therefore, God does not exist.

Could you please explain how rdalin, I, or any other atheist, "needs" God (gods) to not exist?

[shunyadragon]

Yeah, that’s what everyone says about me. Don’t know why, I think I'm a paragon of tolerance.

Anyway, okay, so I don’t know anything about you, but I am reasonably certain that you can and have changed your opinions and beliefs – even ones you were once absolutely convinced were true. Maybe when you were a child you believed in Santa, but you don’t now that you are an adult. Maybe you were once convinced Clinton was a terrible President, but have change your opinion now that you see what a disaster Bush has been. The list can be endless. The fact is we ALL change our opinions as the events change and as we ourselves change.

Change the circumstances of your life and you would eventually change you opinions about God. For example, suppose you died and found yourself staring at the Creator of the Universe Himself – would you still say “He doesn’t exist”?
If you died and found nothing would you change your mind?

[rdalin]

Could you please explain how rdalin, I, or any other atheist, "needs" God (gods) to not exist?I'm betting he can't.

[FirstSunday33ad]

If you died and found nothing would you change your mind?

:lol: Well considering I would be in "nothing" wouldn't that mean I would be "nothing" and therefore wouldn't have a mind to change?

Joke aside, when I die whatever I find myself face to face with - if it says "I'm God, worship me" I will.

[FirstSunday33ad]

You haven't got anything out of the way.

I don't believe in any supernatural gods because I have drawn the conclusion that they don't exist. I have no "needs" other than my need to be rational and logical that cause me to say this.

Need doesn't enter into this. Evidence does. Proof does. Mere assertions are useless. Show me your evidence.


Could you please explain how rdalin, I, or any other atheist, "needs" God (gods) to not exist?


I'm betting he can't.


I’m willing to bet you won’t accept the answer but here goes anyway. (I’m probably talking to myself at this stage, but I’ve always liked the sound of my own voice, so that’s all right).

Human “needs” are six in number in a hierarchal scale. We must satisfy one need before we can address the next. The primary need of all humans is “food and water” without these we die so they are our primary concern.

Once this need is met, we need shelter and safety. Therefore we build homes and fires, walls and weapons.

After that social need is felt. We desire company and to belong to a group. Therefore we band together into tribes, clans and families.

Next we have an esteem need. Within that social company we need to be liked and accepted. Therefore we adapt our beliefs and patterns of behaviour to that of others and to win approval. (Esteem need is both internal and external, therefore we often act in a way to make ourselves feel better about ourselves; for example by losing weight)

Finally, once each of these needs has been met at least partiallly, we have self-actualization needs come to the fore. We need to achieve, to become more than we currently are. Hence we create art, literature, science, politics as a means of satisfying this need.

Your “non belief” in God is an expression of one of these needs, just as my “belief” is an expression. Whereas yours may be an esteem need – and based on what you have written I suspect strongly that it is – my may be a self-actualization need. However, change the circumstances in our lives and each of us is capable of changing our beliefs to suit the new situation. Even if we initially resisted this change, we would find it impossible to remain in the situation and retain our prior beliefs. We would either have the leave the situation and return to an environment that supported the previous belief or we would have to change our beliefs.

How’s that – prove it to you?

BTW – This is called Maslow’s Theory.

[rdalin]

I’m willing to bet you won’t accept the answer but here goes anyway. (I’m probably talking to myself at this stage, but I’ve always liked the sound of my own voice, so that’s all right).

Human “needs” are six in number in a hierarchal scale. We must satisfy one need before we can address the next. The primary need of all humans is “food and water” without these we die so they are our primary concern.

Once this need is met, we need shelter and safety. Therefore we build homes and fires, walls and weapons.

After that social need is felt. We desire company and to belong to a group. Therefore we band together into tribes, clans and families.

Next we have an esteem need. Within that social company we need to be liked and accepted. Therefore we adapt our beliefs and patterns of behaviour to that of others and to win approval. (Esteem need is both internal and external, therefore we often act in a way to make ourselves feel better about ourselves; for example by losing weight)

Finally, once each of these needs has been met at least partiallly, we have self-actualization needs come to the fore. We need to achieve, to become more than we currently are. Hence we create art, literature, science, politics as a means of satisfying this need.

Your “non belief” in God is an expression of one of these needs, just as my “belief” is an expression. Whereas yours may be an esteem need – and based on what you have written I suspect strongly that it is – my may be a self-actualization need. However, change the circumstances in our lives and each of us is capable of changing our beliefs to suit the new situation. Even if we initially resisted this change, we would find it impossible to remain in the situation and retain our prior beliefs. We would either have the leave the situation and return to an environment that supported the previous belief or we would have to change our beliefs.

How’s that – prove it to you?

BTW – This is called Maslow’s Theory.So, you have presented me with a theory. I have no idea how valid it is, nor I suspect, do you. I don't know how others in the field regard this theory. How does this constitute proof?

I find it interesting that you can't seem to address my position without using insults. By calling my position an "esteem need," you are saying that I'm adopting that position so that I will be liked and respected. Since atheism is not well-regarded in the United States, I must be pretty dumb to take that position. I'd be much better off becoming a theist (if I could stomach the idea) if my aim were to get people to like me. For your information, most of my friends are not atheists, so I'm a little puzzled as to what my target audience might be.

Contrarily, you're a theist because of the highest motives - you want to become more than you currently are. It's certainly funny how things work out, isn't it?

If my atheism is the result of a "need," it's the need to be intellectually honest (I have no idea where that falls on Maslow's scale). It's the result of facts which are so clear and evident to me that I am unable to adopt any other position. You make it sound like I looked over all of the available options and then decided on the one that I thought would make me popular. Do you really think that trivializing my position constitutes a sound argument?

And finally - you listed the following needs:

* Food and water
* Shelter and safety
* Socialization
* Esteem
* Self-actualization

That's five needs. What's the sixth?

[FirstSunday33ad]

so I'm a little puzzled as to what my target audience might be

Esteem need is both internal and external, therefore we often act in a way to make ourselves feel better about ourselves; for example by losing weight.

ie, Ego boost. I could be wrong, but based on what you write and how you write it, you get an ego boost – satisfy an esteem need – by being able to feel you are “smarter” than your friends, family, most Americans etc.

As for your claim that you would win more praise by becoming a theist nothing is farther from the truth nowadays. Theists are about as popular as Anthrax and suicide bombers today. Whenever they are presented by a non-theist it is almost – note the word – with an undercurrent of contempt.

Although you probably would win more friends by being less dogmatic in your assertion that God does not exist, you certainly aren’t losing the freindship of anyone you care about impressing.


It's the result of facts which are so clear and evident to me that I am unable to adopt any other position. You make it sound like I looked over all of the available options and then decided on the one that I thought would make me popular. Do you really think that trivializing my position constitutes a sound argument?

:lol: Which is exactly what we all believe about all our opinions. No, I don’t believe you “looked over all of the available options” that is just the point, we rarely ever do “look over” anything when making a decision.

We are pulled toward the decision that suits us in our present circumstances by our desire to meet and satisfy our needs. If you are starving you don’t turn up your nose at Chinese hoping instead for Italian. If you have an esteem need that isn’t being met by group A, you will naturally gravitate toward group B and if the need is met by them you will change your opinions and beliefs to match theirs so as to fit in. If no group is willing or able to meet this esteem need, you will attempt to satisfy it internally. Hence most egomaniacs are in fact very lonely people.


And finally - you listed the following needs:

* Food and water
* Shelter and safety
* Socialization
* Esteem
* Self-actualization

That's five needs. What's the sixth?

Your right…DANG!….and I got an “A” on this course too. Well now its going to bug me until I find it. I’ll get back you.

[FirstSunday33ad]

Fifth Need - Knowledge: The need to know what is happening, why it is happening and what it means. It comes after Esteem and before Self-Actualization. In which case "science" belongs here as an example and not with S-A.

[rdalin]

Esteem need is both internal and external, therefore we often act in a way to make ourselves feel better about ourselves; for example by losing weight.

ie, Ego boost. I could be wrong, but based on what you write and how you write it, you get an ego boost – satisfy an esteem need – by being able to feel you are “smarter” than your friends, family, most Americans etc.

As for your claim that you would win more praise by becoming a theist nothing is farther from the truth nowadays. Theists are about as popular as Anthrax and suicide bombers today. Whenever they are presented by a non-theist it is almost – note the word – with an undercurrent of contempt.

Although you probably would win more friends by being less dogmatic in your assertion that God does not exist, you certainly aren’t losing the freindship of anyone you care about impressing.If you still think my atheism is about impressing anyone - whether others or myself - you're badly missing the point. I don't feel that I'm smarter than anyone by being an atheist. I feel that I'm correct and theists are wrong concerning the existence of gods. I know some extremely smart people who are theists. In fact, I have some very close and very smart friends who are theists. I don't feel I'm smarter than they are. I feel they're wrong on this subject. That's not the same thing.

As surveys show that the United States, which is where I live, is over 80% Christian, I'm a little puzzled about who all these people are who regard theists with contempt.

And once more: this has nothing to do with winning or losing friends, or boosting my ego. You persist in ascribing incorrect motivations for my atheism, in spite of my constant corrections. I wonder why.



Which is exactly what we all believe about all our opinions. No, I don’t believe you “looked over all of the available options” that is just the point, we rarely ever do “look over” anything when making a decision.

We are pulled toward the decision that suits us in our present circumstances by our desire to meet and satisfy our needs. If you are starving you don’t turn up your nose at Chinese hoping instead for Italian. If you have an esteem need that isn’t being met by group A, you will naturally gravitate toward group B and if the need is met by them you will change your opinions and beliefs to match theirs so as to fit in. If no group is willing or able to meet this esteem need, you will attempt to satisfy it internally. Hence most egomaniacs are in fact very lonely people.Believe what you wish. My statement stands.

You accused me in your last post of not paying attention to what you were saying. By continually insisting that my atheism is nothing more than an attempt to satisfy some "need" you claim I have, it is clear that you're the one who isn't listening.

If you are accusing me of being an egomaniac, you're sadly mistaken. If not, I have no idea what your last paragraph is supposed to mean. I have been an atheist since I was born. I have never changed. This "gravitation" you're prattling about has never happened in my case.

You persist in setting up your own straw-man version of my personality and then arguing against it. This is a good reason for me not to take what you say seriously.



Your right…DANG!….and I got an “A” on this course too. Well now its going to bug me until I find it. I’ll get back you.I eagerly await your findings.

Edited to add: knowledge is the sixth point. Thank you.

[FirstSunday33ad]

If you still think my atheism is about impressing anyone - whether others or myself - you're badly missing the point. I don't feel that I'm smarter than anyone by being an atheist. I feel that I'm correct and theists are wrong concerning the existence of gods. I know some extremely smart people who are theists. In fact, I have some very close and very smart friends who are theists. I don't feel I'm smarter than they are. I feel they're wrong on this subject. That's not the same thing.

As surveys show that the United States, which is where I live, is over 80% Christian, I'm a little puzzled about who all these people are who regard theists with contempt.

And once more: this has nothing to do with winning or losing friends, or boosting my ego. You persist in ascribing incorrect motivations for my atheism, in spite of my constant corrections. I wonder why.

Know thyself brother…as long as you deny that a big part of what you are is a result of your attempts to meet and satisfy your needs, you will never truly know who you are.

As for your motivations as to why you are an atheist, I’m not saying they definitely are the result of Esteem Needs, just that I strongly suspect that they are. They certainly aren’t to meet Self-Acutilization or Knowledge Needs and I doubt they are based in Social Needs as you state you have friends who are believers. That really only leaves Esteem and they show all the trademarks of being Esteem Needs. But, I’m not a doctor and I don’t know you so who knows, I could be wrong.

No biggie, whatever the reason, you hold your beliefs because the do in fact meet a need.


Believe what you wish. My statement stands.

You accused me in your last post of not paying attention to what you were saying. By continually insisting that my atheism is nothing more than an attempt to satisfy some "need" you claim I have, it is clear that you're the one who isn't listening.

If you are accusing me of being an egomaniac, you're sadly mistaken. If not, I have no idea what your last paragraph is supposed to mean. I have been an atheist since I was born. I have never changed. This "gravitation" you're prattling about has never happened in my case.

You persist in setting up your own straw-man version of my personality and then arguing against it. This is a good reason for me not to take what you say seriously.

No, I am not calling you an ego maniac – I said that if esteem needs were not satisfied, people would internalize to satisfy them, which is why most ego maniacs are lonely people.

And I do hear you deny what I am telling you, I am just telling you that you are wrong. You are not an atheist “in spite of yourself”. You are an atheist because it meets a need you have. If it did not, you would have no opinion on the existance of God. It would be as if someone came up and asked you the difference between salmon and pink. You would shrug your shoulders and say “who cares? What difference does it make?” Ask the same question of a woman and you get a much different answer. Why? Because the question meets some need she has and therefore it matters.

Really, this isn’t anything to get upset over, it simply means that you are an individual and make decisions based on what is right for you. If something is wrong for you, you move away from it, if it is right you move towards it. You are nobodies puppet. Therefore, you are able – if you choose – to believe in God or not. Nothing externally prevents it. It is an internal decision.

[rdalin]

Know thyself brother…as long as you deny that a big part of what you are is a result of your attempts to meet and satisfy your needs, you will never truly know who you are.

As for your motivations as to why you are an atheist, I’m not saying they definitely are the result of Esteem Needs, just that I strongly suspect that they are. They certainly aren’t to meet Self-Acutilization or Knowledge Needs and I doubt they are based in Social Needs as you state you have friends who are believers. That really only leaves Esteem and they show all the trademarks of being Esteem Needs. But, I’m not a doctor and I don’t know you so who knows, I could be wrong.

No biggie, whatever the reason, you hold your beliefs because the do in fact meet a need.How fortunate I am to have met someone who could tell me what I am and why I am that way.




No, I am not calling you an ego maniac – I said that if esteem needs were not satisfied, people would internalize to satisfy them, which is why most ego maniacs are lonely people.

And I do hear you deny what I am telling you, I am just telling you that you are wrong. You are not an atheist “in spite of yourself”. You are an atheist because it meets a need you have. If it did not, you would have no opinion on the existance of God. It would be as if someone came up and asked you the difference between salmon and pink. You would shrug your shoulders and say “who cares? What difference does it make?” Ask the same question of a woman and you get a much different answer. Why? Because the question meets some need she has and therefore it matters.

Really, this isn’t anything to get upset over, it simply means that you are an individual and make decisions based on what is right for you. If something is wrong for you, you move away from it, if it is right you move towards it. You are nobodies puppet. Therefore, you are able – if you choose – to believe in God or not. Nothing externally prevents it. It is an internal decision.What makes you think I'm upset? What I actually am is amused by your delusion of being an armchair psychologist, able to tell what motivates and drives others because of your intimate familiarity with Maslow's Theory. I can't see any reason to take what you say at all seriously.

[FirstSunday33ad]

How do I know your upset? By the amount of time and attention you’re paying to this subject. If you couldn't care less - if it was a Salmon or Pink question, you would have shrugged your shoulders and walked away sometime ago. You are still here, because the idea that you are an atheist for any reason other than one of pure logic and reason challenges your ego (the essence of yourself and how you see yourself). You cannot let it go no matter how much you want to.

So, I will. I will let this thread close and end my participation in it any longer.

[rdalin]

How do I know your upset? By the amount of time and attention you’re paying to this subject. If you couldn't care less - if it was a Salmon or Pink question, you would have shrugged your shoulders and walked away sometime ago. You are still here, because the idea that you are an atheist for any reason other than one of pure logic and reason challenges your ego (the essence of yourself and how you see yourself). You cannot let it go no matter how much you want to.

So, I will. I will let this thread close and end my participation in it any longer.Yet more pop psychology. Are you actually Dr. Phil?

[kendal]

Could you please explain how rdalin, I, or any other atheist, "needs" God (gods) to not exist?


:blush: As you probably know for yourself,atheists don't want God or any so called god to exist.They don't like rules and they love rebelliousness and lewd conduct.
I don't care what you all say,it's what you all do that proves it!!!

[EvoUK]

As you probably know for yourself,atheists don't want God or any so called god to exist.

Assertion.

It's obviously within our best interests to believe in your god were it true- given the morally repugnant exclusive salvation doctrine.

As we have no reason to believe it's true- it's not a problem.


don't like rules and they love rebelliousness and lewd conduct.

:lmbo:

You're a joke girl- are you trying to be the next Otaku? Even he wasn't this bad!

:lol:

[rdalin]

:blush: As you probably know for yourself,atheists don't want God or any so called god to exist.They don't like rules and they love rebelliousness and lewd conduct.
I don't care what you all say,it's what you all do that proves it!!!I'll bet it's easier for you to win arguments when you make up things like this.

[kendal]

How fortunate I am to have met someone who could tell me what I am and why I am that way.



What makes you think I'm upset? What I actually am is amused by your delusion of being an armchair psychologist, able to tell what motivates and drives others because of your intimate familiarity with Maslow's Theory. I can't see any reason to take what you say at all seriously.

:pray: Yes,indeed you are fortunate to know this kind christian person,amen.
I thought Maslow was a worldly humanist?
I'm a humanist,but I am a humanist the way the Bible says we should be,not the man says we should be!
There really is a big difference!

[kendal]

I'll bet it's easier for you to win arguments when you make up things like this.
:smile: I don't have to make things up when the truth works just excellent!!!
If you don't want to be in trouble for a hate crime soon :pray: ,you must admit
to your own self on a realistic level that the world is becoming increasly more
on the side of believing there is a God,than not!!!
Atheists won't be accepted soon,and it's easy to see that this is true today.
I hope you won't convert to the one world religion when you do change your mind about God. I am a Jesusfreak personally,and I won't be accepted by the world either,but God is with me.
Choose Jesus Christ as the only way to be saved,then your life will have a real
and worth while purpose,after all,if you are going to die for a cause,why not do
it for a man who loved you,instead of for nothing?

[kendal]

One thing you can all be sure of for the future,"There will be No atheist's"

The atheists will be called haters,and they will be arrested and some even killed because they have no tolerance for the religious faith of others!!! They will be arrested for hate crimes when they try to convert others to their way of thinking!
What do you all suppose the terrorists were fighting for?
Can anyone here say........JIHAD?
what is a so called Holy War?
The world is growing more religious not less,although,it's just a stepping stone to the one world religion (inter-faithism)

I should get paid for this,huh?

A note to all atheists,Hey',don't feel too bad,christians like me will also be hated for saying that Jesus Christ is the only way to God!!!! Feel better already?
Anyone who doesn't tolerate the religious views of others will be called a hater. What will they say is intolerance? trying to convert someone to believe as you believe,thats all it will take to be called a hater!
Think about it,while you still have a little time.
I don't want to offend anyone,just help those who can accept the truth.:pray:

[kendal]

Satan always tries to make the christians think they are bad,and he tries to make the lost & worldy think they are good!!!







If you never run into the devil,then it's a sure sign you are going in the same direction! :eek:

[kendal]

Yet more pop psychology. Are you actually Dr. Phil?:lol: No' silly goose,Dr. Phil is also worldly,isn't he!!!
Actually,your self love in the extreme that it's in is called Narcisism!
Look into it.

If you are really as good as you think you are,then why not follow Jesus?:blush:

[Seasanctuary]

:smile: I don't have to make things up when the truth works just excellent!!!
If you don't want to be in trouble for a hate crime soon :pray: ,you must admit
to your own self on a realistic level that the world is becoming increasly more
on the side of believing there is a God,than not!!!

!!! !!!! !!!!!!!!

!!!!!

!!! ..............!!!

[rdalin]

:pray: Yes,indeed you are fortunate to know this kind christian person,amen.
I thought Maslow was a worldly humanist?
I'm a humanist,but I am a humanist the way the Bible says we should be,not the man says we should be!
There really is a big difference!Apparently you're sarcasm-challenged. How sad.

I have no idea what Maslow's position on humanism is. Do you think that if he's a humanist I should automatically agree with him?

[rdalin]

:smile: I don't have to make things up when the truth works just excellent!!!
If you don't want to be in trouble for a hate crime soon :pray: ,you must admit
to your own self on a realistic level that the world is becoming increasly more
on the side of believing there is a God,than not!!!
Atheists won't be accepted soon,and it's easy to see that this is true today.
I hope you won't convert to the one world religion when you do change your mind about God. I am a Jesusfreak personally,and I won't be accepted by the world either,but God is with me.
Choose Jesus Christ as the only way to be saved,then your life will have a real
and worth while purpose,after all,if you are going to die for a cause,why not do
it for a man who loved you,instead of for nothing?You know that you're babbling, don't you? Hate crime? One world religion? This is a content-free post.

[rdalin]

:lol: No' silly goose,Dr. Phil is also worldly,isn't he!!!
Actually,your self love in the extreme that it's in is called Narcisism!
Look into it.

If you are really as good as you think you are,then why not follow Jesus?:blush:There are some Christians who are capable of putting a coherent argument together. You are clearly not one of them. Your posts make no sense whatsoever.

[kendal]

[QUOTE=EvoUK]Assertion.

It's obviously within our best interests to believe in your god were it true- given the morally repugnant exclusive salvation doctrine.

As we have no reason to believe it's true- it's not a problem.

:blush: Look whose got PIE WHOLE PROBLEMS again!!!
Salvation is exclusive for a reason!!!! I wouldn't want all my enemies
in my Kingdom either,and if I hate porno,and filth I shouldn't be forced to
have it in my world!!!
What a silly thing to say!
people like you would be a joke if you were not so ignorant of the truth that it's a serious problem in the world today! If you cannot accept God,one day you will ask yourself why you didn't.
Don't try to undermine the christian faith in your unhappy world by trying to cause other christians to fall,all you'll get are those who were already down to start with. There won't be an atheist left in the world soon enough. The world is becoming religious globally,now more than ever,and atheists are called the haters,and they will eventually be punished by law.
Don't feel bad,the Jesusfreaks like me will be called that too!!!
I am not a joke at all precious,I just hope you wake up from your make believe world and get saved. I'm not a wimpy saint like most are today,I am not going to sugar coat the word of God for nobody,understand?
What does it take to wake you up?
God is not going to butt kiss you,so let it go,I'm tired of your cryin'!
Grow up and look at nature and design,and learn that every form of life has a reason and a season,and just because you don't get it,doesn't mean SQUATT!!!
You are not a genius,and you are not even like Solomon yet even Solomon became decieved,so mans wisdom is nothing compared to God's,amen.
God is BANG ON,right!!!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:


A nice bit of advise," look at creation without the use of drugs for once",before making yourself look totally rebellious and meanspirited,or the butt of all jokes:lmbo: :lmbo: :lmbo: :lmbo:






Now get off me!:dance:
]

[Seasanctuary]

There won't be an atheist left in the world soon enough. The world is becoming religious globally,now more than ever,and atheists are called the haters,and they will eventually be punished by law.
Don't feel bad,the Jesusfreaks like me will be called that too!!! You keep saying this.

Would you care to provide statistical data showing a significant trend which is likely to result in nearly all of the Earth's population following one nonChristian religion in the near future?

[kendal]

[I find it interesting that you can't seem to address my position without using insults. By calling my position an "esteem need," you are saying that I'm adopting that position so that I will be liked and respected. Since atheism is not well-regarded in the United States, I must be pretty dumb to take that position. I'd be much better off becoming a theist (if I could stomach the idea) if my aim were to get people to like me. For your information, most of my friends are not atheists, so I'm a little puzzled as to what my target audience might be.


And finally - you listed the following needs:

* Food and water
* Shelter and safety
* Socialization
* Esteem
* Self-actualization

:kiss: Who insulted you?:chat: That was sweet compared to what you get from me. You are a walking target for all sorts of insults by all sorts of people from every walk of life!!!
Check out what you just posted and accused that nice person of for just trying to help you make sense of the world,and wake you up out of the slumber you are in so you can finally enjoy life and make peace with yourself and God.
:fencing: Keep messing with me all you want,but leave the nice christians alone! I'm a christian and I am nice,but the worldly folks don't think so,and the secular think I'm rebellious.
:bawl: I'm so tired of your cryin',is that all you folks do?
Don't you get it yet,atheists are getting into trouble for hate crimes because the world is much more religious now!!!

[kendal]

You keep saying this.

Would you care to provide statistical data showing a significant trend which is likely to result in nearly all of the Earth's population following one nonChristian religion in the near future?
:eek: Would you care to to tell me what planet you are on?
Do you own a t.v. set?
Do you ever listen to the news?
Hello......!!!!

[Seasanctuary]

:eek: Would you care to to tell me what planet you are on?
Do you own a t.v. set?
Do you ever listen to the news?
Hello......!!!! I mostly listen to conservative talk radio. Sean Hannity hasn't told me this is happening.

If it's so obvious and highly reported, it shouldn't be hard for you to show me the stats.

[kendal]

!!! !!!! !!!!!!!!

!!!!!

!!! ..............!!!

Just :bravo: Watch the news and listen next time!
Do yourself a huge,fantastic favor,and get with the times!!!
The liberals can't save you!

[kendal]

I mostly listen to conservative talk radio. Sean Hannity hasn't told me this is happening.

If it's so obvious and highly reported, it shouldn't be hard for you to show me the stats.
:haha: You have got to be kidding,right?
Do you know what the war on terror got started for?
Does the word "Jihad" ring any bells for you?
What is all the talk about inter-faithism and tolerance for the faiths of others,
and saying there is more than one way to God? What is all the talk about when,they claim they want to join all religions together?
I don't want to sound rude,but hey',I know you have some intelligence going
for you,so catch the headlines and the news,ect....
The Pope believes in evolution,and many religions and so called christians believe in evolution,evolution is accepted by many,many,many people all over the world,evolution is not what most people debate about so often.
:chat: Let me tell you something,Jihad is suppose to mean "holy war".
Remember the women in Afghanistan who were put in jail for passing around literature about Jesus Christ in that country just days before 9/11?
Hal Lindsey may not be right about all things,but thats one preacher man who did warn America of terror attacks just two days before 9/11 happened,and the talk today in the news is about these so called holy wars. The war on terrorism is based on differences in religious views no matter what the gays and liberals try to tell you. They just can't allow themselves to see what is happening because of their own agenda.
Look around you in the world,all the proof you need is all around you today.The Government is no longer covering it's tail or hiding what their plans are for us. The so called Elite groups who think they have been enlightened and think they are greater than we are want the world to be controled in such a way that they will control what everyone does.
They believe people cannot control themselves,and need to be constantly watched and taken care of.
:serenade: I may seem a tad rough around the edges,but I have learned that wimpy saints just won't make it in these days.
If you truly care where another person is headed after this life,then you are not out to win the popular vote,and these times sure don't need wimps running around afraid to help others learn whats going on.
Even if you don't believe what I am saying,please pretend for a minute in your mind that I'm right,wouldn't you be happy if I am right and helped you get out of hot water with God? Wouldn't you as a true christian be willing to help as many people as you could so they could be with you when you are with the Lord? I know God is real,but even though you may or may not believe,don't you feel that christians should be more honest and willing to lay it all down for God if thats who they live for?
You can learn alot from the news and the world around you now. It's not hidden anymore.
All religions joining together! what does that mean to you? I know what it means to me,and it's not a pretty thing either.
What is the war on terror about?

[LGM]

Even if you don't believe what I am saying,please pretend for a minute in your mind that I'm right...

Even if you don't have a clue what I am saying, please pretend for a minute that I'm lucid...

LGM
...this is almost as much fun as an Aseity post... :popcorn:

[chsalvia]

I think Aseity posts are kind of boring.

[Seasanctuary]

Just :bravo: Watch the news and listen next time!
Do yourself a huge,fantastic favor,and get with the times!!!
The liberals can't save you!
Excuse me, but in the post just above which you're answering by mentioning the news, I said I listen to conservative talk radio.

You do realize that conservative talk radio is not liberal talk radio, right? Right?


:haha: You have got to be kidding,right?
Do you know what the war on terror got started for?
Does the word "Jihad" ring any bells for you?
Oh hey, thanks for double posting. It's especially odd that you double posted to answer the same post of mine.

To review, I'm asking you to show me the evidence for this idea you keep repeating that there is a significant trend toward a unified global religion that will be pretty much all there is except for a small percentage of Christians and Atheists who will be persecuted by this Super Religion's majority.

It looks like you're claiming Islam is going to be this Super Religion that everyone is flocking to, including all those Buddhists and Hindus who are just about to disappear from the earth so the Super Religion can get to oppressing Christians and Atheists.

Ok, fine, Islam is currently on the rise. I don't see absolutely everyone running to give up their religions to join it, though. Does Islam's current higher rate of growth than Christianity's rate of growth mean it's going to be the One World Religion in twenty years? Seems a little hasty to me.


What is all the talk about inter-faithism and tolerance for the faiths of others,
and saying there is more than one way to God? What is all the talk about when,they claim they want to join all religions together?
Oh, whoops, I guess you're not talking about Islam after all. That's too bad. That was actually a viable candidate. InterFaithism doesn't even approach the numbers, cohesiveness, or growth rate of good ol' Islam.

I have heard some stats on Islam's growth, but I haven't heard anything about InterFaithism gunning for Super Religion status. You'll really need to point me at some stats on that after all.


I don't want to sound rude,but hey',I know you have some intelligence going
for you,so catch the headlines and the news,ect....
Hey thanks. I do catch the headlines and listen to conservative talk radio. Isn't that good enough? :wink:


The Pope believes in evolution,and many religions and so called christians believe in evolution,evolution is accepted by many,many,many people all over the world,evolution is not what most people debate about so often.
What does this have to do with the question at hand?


:chat: Let me tell you something,Jihad is suppose to mean "holy war".
Remember the women in Afghanistan who were put in jail for passing around literature about Jesus Christ in that country just days before 9/11?
No, actually "Holy War" was the Christian term. And no, I don't subscribe to Voices of the Martyrs, so I don't get to sit back in my comfortable American life and feel oppressed reading about paltry examples like that.


Hal Lindsey may not be right about all things,but thats one preacher man who did warn America of terror attacks just two days before 9/11 happened,and the talk today in the news is about these so called holy wars.
That's an easy prediction. I predict mass deaths by engineered diseases.


The war on terrorism is based on differences in religious views no matter what the gays and liberals try to tell you. They just can't allow themselves to see what is happening because of their own agenda.
What do gays have to do with the question at hand? Are gays and evolution your favorite monsters to call up in any situation or what?

Actually, the War on Terrorism is based on the idea that being passive and taking our occasional hits isn't acceptable. Terrorism, however, is based on political history and religious interpretations, yes.

But again, what does this have to do with a InterFaith Super Religion? Islamist militants aren't known for being all cozy with other faiths.


Look around you in the world,all the proof you need is all around you today.The Government is no longer covering it's tail or hiding what their plans are for us. The so called Elite groups who think they have been enlightened and think they are greater than we are want the world to be controled in such a way that they will control what everyone does.
They believe people cannot control themselves,and need to be constantly watched and taken care of.
The capitalist and socialist camps of political theory have been around a long time. There's no monolithic "The Government" that's got evil plans in store for you. We've got shifting balances of two party sides and all their various truckloads of special interest alliances.


If you truly care where another person is headed after this life,then you are not out to win the popular vote,and these times sure don't need wimps running around afraid to help others learn whats going on.
Are you saying that real Christians shouldn't seek office?


Even if you don't believe what I am saying,please pretend for a minute in your mind that I'm right,wouldn't you be happy if I am right and helped you get out of hot water with God?
I find it hard to figure out what you're saying. We can address believing it after that.


Wouldn't you as a true christian be willing to help as many people as you could so they could be with you when you are with the Lord? I know God is real,but even though you may or may not believe,don't you feel that christians should be more honest and willing to lay it all down for God if thats who they live for?
Yes, Christians should behave as if they actually believe what they say they believe is true. I understand that.


You can learn alot from the news and the world around you now. It's not hidden anymore.
All religions joining together! what does that mean to you? I know what it means to me,and it's not a pretty thing either.
What is the war on terror about?
All the religions are joining together? Really? I still haven't heard you cite any examples.

[EvoUK]

Sea- don't waste your precious time girl- even if Kendal could produce a coherent responce, it wouldn't be worth it. She's quite obviously an intellectual lightweight.

[Seasanctuary]

Sea- don't waste your precious time girl- even if Kendal could produce a coherent responce, it wouldn't be worth it. She's quite obviously an intellectual lightweight.
Usually I don't bother with this sort of thing, but...heck, I felt like it at the time. :shrug:

[Bob the Builder]

:blush: As you probably know for yourself,atheists don't want God or any so called god to exist.
Wrong. Not believing they exist is not the same as not wanting them to exist. I sometimes wish there was a god of some kind.


They don't like rules and they love rebelliousness and lewd conduct.
:lmbo: What a random and unsupportable thing to say! In case you hadn't noticed, the majority of people live by rules (hint: they're called laws). You might like to know that the majority of criminals in prison are not atheists - so it seems that people who "don't like rules" can be found in any theistic or nontheistic group.


I don't care what you all say,it's what you all do that proves it!!!
OK, tell me what I do that proves "it".

[Bob the Builder]

One thing you can all be sure of for the future,"There will be No atheist's"
Of course, at about the time the Sun expands to consume the Earth in a few hundred billion years or so. Or sooner, if "the big one" hits the Earth...



The atheists will be called haters,and they will be arrested and some even killed because they have no tolerance for the religious faith of others!!!

er...I think you'll find most atheists care little for the religious faiths of others, it's the others who care about the atheist's lack of religious faith that are the problem


The world is growing more religious not less,although,it's just a stepping stone to the one world religion (inter-faithism)

Right, so all those people who no longer go to church are going......where exactly? Seems to me they're washing their cars on Sunday mornings nowadays..


I should get paid for this,huh?

Indeed, good comedy writers are always in demand :wink:

[Rationalist]

What is the war on terror about?

Uh.. I'll take a shot....

Terror?

[kendal]

er...I think you'll find most atheists care little for the religious faiths of others, it's the others who care about the atheist's lack of religious faith that are the problem

:smile: So,you don't believe that inter-faithism means anything,or the joining of all religious groups for the so called good of man-kind?
I must get alot more information than you philosophy nerds do!
Anyone who actually likes philosophy is not someone I'd call super intelligent!
Anyone can create fantasies in their own minds,it's just that normal people try to accept whats real,and deal with it.
Don't listen then. Keep your books on fiction.

[kendal]

What is the war on terror about?

Uh.. I'll take a shot....

Terror?
:ahem: silly man!

[kendal]

Indeed, good comedy writers are always in demand :wink:[/QUOTE]
:whack: So you don't get it! I just put it out there for you,so don't hate the messenger. Anyway,plenty of people will love to see your butts fry.

[kendal]

:noid: Did I say I thought you had some intelligence? Wow! Error on my part.

Why not do the work yourself,and find out? You do have the internet don't you?
This is for your benefit that you know this,not mine. I stay up with the times,unlike some of you.
sorry,but holy war is what the terrorists call jihad,check again!
why on earth would american christians call an act of terror a holy war anyway?
I would recommend you subscribing to the Voice of The Martyrs magazine in your case,so you can learn compassion. I do not subscribe to it any longer because I don't believe in pagan days like christmas,easter,ect.... not even so called thanksgiving. Only God can make a day holy,not man.
evolution is an ancient pagan religious belief so don't claim you don't have a religion because you do.
people who believed in God were on earth long before the pagans,and pagans tried to copy some of ways of those who believed in God,not the other way around,so since you also didn't know that,how smart do you think you could be?
Do you have a job? I am just asking,no offense.
atheists won't last much longer,and niether will thier ideas,and how can an atheist prove there is no god. until they can prove it,they have no debate!
why not put down all you books by Darwin,and stop looking at fiction for once in your whole life,and actually learn what reality is about?

[Bob the Builder]

evolution is an ancient pagan religious belief so don't claim you don't have a religion because you do.
people who believed in God were on earth long before the pagans
Do yourself a favour - stop posting stuff which is blatantly untrue

[kendal]

Do yourself a favour - stop posting stuff which is blatantly untrue
:ahem: Do yourself a huge favor and wake up! Do the research,and look into it!
Why be lazy about it? Find out what other religions believe,and what pagans believe. Look into! I challenge you for your own sake. It's one thing to claim to be an atheist,it's another to claim to believe in evolution!!!
If you believe that the first man and woman just happened to get here by chance,and just happened to have all the food they would need,and water and air to survive,and everything they needed,thats your choice. I don't believe in the evolution religion at all.
I cannot believe the stars or the planets just got blown in the sky and just stuck there,and I cannot believe that people evolved and so did their food and everything needed to keep them alive!
Do your research before you call others liars. that would be wise.

[chickenman]

you're either incredibly dense, or a troll

[rdalin]

:ahem: Do yourself a huge favor and wake up! Do the research,and look into it!
Why be lazy about it? Find out what other religions believe,and what pagans believe. Look into! I challenge you for your own sake. It's one thing to claim to be an atheist,it's another to claim to believe in evolution!!!
If you believe that the first man and woman just happened to get here by chance,and just happened to have all the food they would need,and water and air to survive,and everything they needed,thats your choice. I don't believe in the evolution religion at all.
I cannot believe the stars or the planets just got blown in the sky and just stuck there,and I cannot believe that people evolved and so did their food and everything needed to keep them alive!
Do your research before you call others liars. that would be wise.This statement is so foolish that it rebuts itself.

You sure do love strawman arguments, don't you?

[bar Jonah]

Jin-Roh,

According to the Bible, the Christian god likes people to burn animal caracasses to honor him-he likes savoring the smell of the burning flesh. This god thinks it is fine and dandy for people to keep slaves. This god repeatedly orders the massacres of women and children and he kills children himself. This god punishes children for the crimes of their ancestors. This god tortures people for eternity if they have trouble believing in him.

Yeah, I would say that if this god existed, he could reasonably be described as being just a little bit wacky. As an atheist, though, I think that this god is a mythical figure--a war god of an ancient culture.

Jimbo
Another interesting quote from another atheist.

Personally, I also enjoy savoring the smell of burning animal carcasses. In fact, most people in the world do.

I guess most people in the world are wacky in the head. :ripurple:

[LGM]

Another interesting quote from another atheist.

Personally, I also enjoy savoring the smell of burning animal carcasses. In fact, most people in the world do.

Especially if its your only son...

"Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."



I guess most people in the world are wacky in the head. :ripurple:
No, only the ones who think its neccessary to sacrifice children and animals to the creator of the universe to please him...

LGM
...sacrificinganimalstogodisnowhere.com...

[bar Jonah]

LGM, your post is simultaneously insulting and dishonest. YHWH angrily rebuked His people for child sacrifice and warned against it with much wrath. You surely know this, but you posted that blop of manure.

[Bob the Builder]

:ahem: Do yourself a huge favor and wake up! Do the research,and look into it!
Why be lazy about it? Find out what other religions believe,and what pagans believe. Look into! I challenge you for your own sake. It's one thing to claim to be an atheist,it's another to claim to believe in evolution!!!

Are you suggesting that Darwin just uncovered some ancient druidic scrolls detailing the science of evolution? By the way, you should capitalise the word Pagan, just as you do the word Christian. It's only polite.


If you believe that the first man and woman just happened to get here by chance,and just happened to have all the food they would need,and water and air to survive,and everything they needed,thats your choice.

Of course I don't believe that - there was no "first man and woman".


I don't believe in the evolution religion at all.

Neither do I, it's an invention of thick theists who like to equate things with religions. The theory of evolution however is another basket of whelks altogether.


I cannot believe the stars or the planets just got blown in the sky and just stuck there

Well they didn't and they aren't. Who told you that?


I cannot believe that people evolved and so did their food and everything needed to keep them alive!

Why not? Everything evolved together, the real boost mankind got was when we started farming.


Do your research before you call others liars. that would be wise.OK, you show me how ancient Pagans believed in evolution and I'll retract what I said.

[kendal]

you're either incredibly dense, or a troll
:ahem: And The Bible tells us what you are! It is the FOOL who says in his/her heart that there is no God! Sure takes all the guess work out of it for me.:wink:

[kendal]

Are you suggesting that Darwin just uncovered some ancient druidic scrolls detailing the science of evolution? By the way, you should capitalise the word Pagan, just as you do the word Christian. It's only polite.
You should also respect the rights of christians not to be forced to hear the lost say ugly things about their God and their faith.
It's only polite after all.:wink:



Of course I don't believe that - there was no "first man and woman".

Well,there are plenty of males and females today! They came from some where! The fact that men and women exist proves the bible correct!:blush:



Neither do I, it's an invention of thick theists who like to equate things with religions. The theory of evolution however is another basket of whelks altogether.:smile: I don't know what a whelk is,but I know what the bible calls a fool!



Well they didn't and they aren't. Who told you that?
:ahem: who told me that? Other evolutionist's! I hope you will all one day learn to keep your stories straight.



Why not? Everything evolved together, the real boost mankind got was when we started farming.:ahem: Yeah',right!!!! Show the evidence please! I have not seen any creature turn into another creature,and none of are going to.
Evolution is more invisible to the naked eye than you claim God is.

OK, you show me how ancient Pagans believed in evolution and I'll retract what I said.:smile: Please check out these web sites. One by a christian,one by an evolutionist.
www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-234.htm (http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-234.htm)
www.resurrectisis.org/PaganEvolution.htm (http://www.resurrectisis.org/PaganEvolution.htm)

look into it alot deeper and see what you find. Darwin took his ideas from a pagan religious source,and remember,he studied theology and was a christian himself,so he claimed.
the pagan roots of evolution is also in some Islamic muslim groups also,and various other religions. Evolution is not new,and like the bible says,there is nothing new under the sun,amen.
I challenge all of you do do your research on this,and when you learn the truth,make the choice,either you are also religious in the ways of Paganism,or you are an atheist who is honest and just doesn't know how life happened on earth.
here is some advise,study hard and learn. It will help you make better and more informed choices!:blush:

[kendal]

This statement is so foolish that it rebuts itself.

You sure do love strawman arguments, don't you?
:fencing: What the bible calls a fool cannot call others foolish,amen.
It is the fool who says in his heart there is no God!
I rebuke you,and all the demons with you,in Jesus's holy & precious name,amen.

good site to check out> www.rae.org/lucyknee.html (http://www.rae.org/lucyknee.html)

fairytales have nothing to do with the truth,so get real!

[Bob the Builder]

:smile: Please check out these web sites. One by a christian,one by an evolutionist.
www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-234.htm (http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-234.htm)
www.resurrectisis.org/PaganEvolution.htm (http://www.resurrectisis.org/PaganEvolution.htm)

look into it alot deeper and see what you find. Darwin took his ideas from a pagan religious source,and remember,he studied theology and was a christian himself,so he claimed.
the pagan roots of evolution is also in some Islamic muslim groups also,and various other religions.
Oh dear. Although this site refers to "evolution" many times, what it really means is "selective breeding programme". This is related to, but less complex than the current theory of evolution. I'm afraid your claims are groundless.


Evolution is not new,and like the bible says,there is nothing new under the sun,amen.
I challenge all of you do do your research on this,and when you learn the truth,make the choice,either you are also religious in the ways of Paganism,or you are an atheist who is honest and just doesn't know how life happened on earth.
here is some advise,study hard and learn. It will help you make better and more informed choices!:blush:

Of course evolution isn't new, it's been happening for millions of years! :wink:
Even if you were right, and ancient Pagans had the same understanding of evolution as we do, how would that make me religious?
Christians (should) believe it is wrong to kill. I believe it is wrong to kill. Doesn't make me a Christian though, does it?


BTW I took this quote from your icr link "Belief in creation out of nothing is the very opposite of paganism". This seems to refute your claim that "evolutionists" are religious Pagans.

[zorathruster]

OK kendal get out your idiot book: I Corinthians 3:18: "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise let him become a fool, that he may be wise."

[rdalin]

:fencing: What the bible calls a fool cannot call others foolish,amen.
It is the fool who says in his heart there is no God!
I rebuke you,and all the demons with you,in Jesus's holy & precious name,amen.

good site to check out> www.rae.org/lucyknee.html (http://www.rae.org/lucyknee.html)

fairytales have nothing to do with the truth,so get real!As far as I'm concerned, anyone who trots out this idiotic biblical quote has run out of every other possible argument.

I rebuke you in Fred's name (not holy and precious, but a good name nonetheless), and hope that someday you become a real live reasoning human being.

I have no interest in any sites you recommend.

[chickenman]

kendal, educate yourself before you spew forth anymore uninformed nonsense, either that or keep to topics you have the faintest clue about