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STR Ambassador
December 1st 2003, 05:30 PM
If some scientists are right about the soul, this is the end for Christianity. Here's what you need to know to answer them.

Evidence for the Soul
by Gregory Koukl

Last year Time magazine made a stunning announcement. In an extensive article on the mind they wrote, "Despite our every instinct to the contrary, there is one thing that consciousness is not: some entity deep inside the brain that corresponds to the 'self,' some kernel of awareness that runs the show." (July 17, 1995, p. 52.)
According to Time, everything about human consciousness--thoughts, desires, pains, pleasures, motives, emotions--can be explained in purely physical terms. A mother's love for her children is only certain c-fibers firing in her brain. The virtue of kindness is nothing more than genetic structure. Your hopes for the future are simply so much chemistry. Brain and body work together as a sophisticated, biological machine with no help from a ghostly, immaterial thing called a soul.
How do they know this? "After more than a century of looking for it, brain researchers have long since concluded that there is no conceivable place for such a self to be located in the physical brain, and that it simply doesn't exist."
In other words, scientists are convinced an immaterial soul can't exist because they can't find it with their instruments and there's no room for it in the brain. That's like saying you don't believe in the invisible man because you've never seen him. You can't measure an immaterial soul with instruments. You have to look for it in a different way.

How to Prove an Invisible Soul Exists
Suppose I came to you seeking advice in settling a dispute with my neighbor. I think he stole something from me, but he denies it, so I ask you for your opinion.
Here's the situation. We both have decks in our backyards built according to the exact same plan. The only difference between his deck and mine is that I used a beautiful new wood-polymer product which doesn't splinter, rot, warp or split. My neighbor's deck is made of old, weather-beaten cedar. Mine looks great and his looks pretty beat up. At least, that's the way it used to be.
One day I noticed that some of my beautiful planks had been removed and replaced with worn out cedar boards. When I looked over my fence, I saw that my neighbor had shiny new planks in the exact same spots that my deck had the old cedar. I started getting suspicious.
A few days passed and more planks had been transferred. When I returned from a week out of town my entire deck looked different. It was old and weather-beaten, just like my neighbor's deck used to look. His deck, however, was brand new, with the same wood-polymer material I used to have that doesn't splinter, rot, warp or split.
When I confronted him he admitted he'd exchanged the boards, but argued that the deck in my backyard is still the same deck I had built. "It still has the same shape," he said. "It's located in the same place. Sure, it looks different, but its looks changed little by little, piece by piece. Therefore, it's still the same deck you had before--your deck--even if it now looks a lot older."
"Listen," I said. "If I have a lawn chair made of the exact same parts that yesterday were in your lawn chair, even though I disassembled it on your property and reassembled it piece by piece on my property, it's still your chair, right?"
"Just because this deck was reassembled in the same place--my backyard," I continued, "it's not the same deck because it's made out of completely different stuff--your junky wood. You want me to believe that just because the beautiful thing you now call your deck is in the same place as your old one, that it's still the same deck. You want me to believe that because it was transformed over time piece by piece, it's still the very same deck, even though it looks different, and therefore you own it?"
"You're nuts," I said. "Anyone can see that if you change all of the parts on my deck, it's no longer the same deck. It's a different deck. Period. I'm studying philosophy. I know how these things work. You can't pull the wool over my eyes."

Did My Neighbor Steal My Deck?
Here's my question to you. Whose deck is in my backyard, mine or his? Do I have a case? If you were a judge presiding over this dispute, would you rule my neighbor stole my deck? I think you would.
This illustration teaches an important lesson about the existence of the soul. It demonstrates that if you change any of the physical parts of a thing, it's not really the same thing it was before. If you change all of its physical parts, there can be no question that you now have something completely different. That's why it was no longer my deck in my backyard. I had my neighbor's deck and he had mine.
A few years back, the famous Dunes Hotel, for decades a Las Vegas landmark, was slated for destruction. A crew of specialists planted explosive charges at key structural locations, cleared the building, and pushed a button. There was a thunderous blast followed by a crash and a huge cloud of dust. When the air cleared, the Las Vegas Dunes was no more. The once popular hotel had been replaced by a pile of rubble.
Notice that the hotel was gone even though all of the physical pieces of the building still remained. When the explosion disassembled the structure, the hotel simply went out of existence. All the parts were there, but the Dunes was gone.
The hotel's identity, like all physical things, was determined by its precise physical makeup. Replace the parts (as with my deck) or alter the parts (as with the Dunes Hotel) and the thing becomes something else.

What Your Birthday Teaches You About Your Soul
If you're clear on this, then I want you to consider the question I asked an angry student when I gave a lecture at a local college. He completely rejected the idea that any religious claims could ever be justified--including the existence of the soul--because they weren't scientific, so I asked him when he was born.
"1975."
"What day?"
"May 1."
"So you were born on May 1, 1975?"
"That's right."
Then I asked my follow-up question. "Is the body you possess today the same body you had on May 1, 1975?"
He balked at first, but it's clear that his physical body was quite a bit larger now, had a different appearance, and had many different qualities. More to the point, it was made up of different physical stuff. The molecules in our bodies are almost completely exchanged every seven years or so. At age 21, this young man had at least three entirely different physical bodies. Just like my deck, his body was not the same body anymore, even though its parts had been replaced piece by piece.
I then pointed out the conclusion that was beginning to dawn on everyone in the gallery, including him. "If you were born on May 1, 1975, and the physical body in front of me right now did not even exist as a physical body in 1975, then you are not your physical body, are you?"

Here's the Important Question
What is it about human beings that allows us to maintain our identity over time--such that we can say we're still ourselves--even when we go through such radical physical changes that we can have entirely different bodies over a period of years?
It can't be anything physical. Why? Our bodies are changing constantly. All our physical parts are replaced piece by piece every seven years. If this student can possess three different bodies over time and still be himself, then his real self cannot be physical.
It isn't my memory, either. I don't remember being conceived or being born. My first recollection is of my second birthday when I got bumped by a pick-up truck and broke my leg. But my existence didn't begin on my second birthday when my memories began. Further, if I lost my memory tomorrow, would I cease to exist? If I had a Vulcan mind-meld and got your memories, would I be you? If so, then who would you be?
Our souls are the non-physical things that sustain our identities over time, even though our physical bodies grow up and grow old. If there is no soul, then you aren't the same one who was born on your birthday. There is a different you at every moment, with every change of your physical body. But you know you've been the same self for your entire lifetime. Therefore, you must have a soul.

Why Is the Soul Important?
First, if Time magazine is right, then Christianity is finished. If you are just your physical body, then when your body dies, you die. That's it. End of story. No heaven or hell. No final judgment. No sweet rewards. Nothing.
This is why it's so important to be able to show--with reflections about decks and birthdays, for example--that there's more going on here than meets the scientific eye. What science is not capable of finding with chemical analysis we can discover with sensible reflection.
Second, a lot of time and effort goes into the development of our bodies, but how much attention do we give to our souls? When you die, your body is left behind, but you continue on. What kind of spiritual body will you take with you? Some people never miss a workout at the spa, but when it comes to the fitness of their souls, they're virtual couch potatoes.
Paul wrote Timothy, "Bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come" (1 Timothy 4:8). Paul's point was that soulish growth endures for eternity, and this growth has something to do with what happens in this life, not the next.
The writer to the Hebrews hints at this idea, I think, when he says, "Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, in order that they might obtain a better resurrection" (Hebrews 11:35).
Do humans have souls, or are we simply sophisticated computers made up of a brain and central nervous system? Your ability to answer that question will make a difference in how well you answer for your faith, and also how well you live your own life.
Not only does your soul exist, but developing your soul now has eternal consequences.

Stand to Reason - Training Christians to be effective ambassadors for Christ - www.str.org

Barron
December 1st 2003, 06:19 PM
Today @ 01:30 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=322275#post322275)
STR Ambassador:

If some scientists are right about the soul, this is the end for Christianity. Here's what you need to know to answer them.

If science can't find the soul all it says is that science can't find the soul. Since the soul is, by it's very definition, supernatural, the methodological naturalism of science _shouldn't_ be able to find it. But that doesn't show that the soul doesn't exist. In fact science can't say that. It _can_ say that it can account for everything the brain does without reference to the soul, but that doesn't say the soul doesn't exist, it only says that in a naturalistic model of the brain it isn't required.

According to Time, everything about human consciousness--thoughts, desires, pains, pleasures, motives, emotions--can be explained in purely physical terms. A mother's love for her children is only certain c-fibers firing in her brain. The virtue of kindness is nothing more than genetic structure. Your hopes for the future are simply so much chemistry. Brain and body work together as a sophisticated, biological machine with no help from a ghostly, immaterial thing called a soul.

All it says is that the soul doesn't seem to be required. Some people may argue there is still "something more" than pure physicalism (see Chalmer's Hard Problem as a point), but physicalism is doing a very good job. Again, this doesn't rule out a soul. As usual it's hard for science to say anything about supernatural entities.

How do they know this? "After more than a century of looking for it, brain researchers have long since concluded that there is no conceivable place for such a self to be located in the physical brain, and that it simply doesn't exist."
In other words, scientists are convinced an immaterial soul can't exist because they can't find it with their instruments and there's no room for it in the brain. That's like saying you don't believe in the invisible man because you've never seen him. You can't measure an immaterial soul with instruments. You have to look for it in a different way.

I disagree with this summation. Of course science can't find a supernatural (immaterial) soul. And why does there need to be "room" for something immaterial anyway?

<big snip on replacing atoms>

But I don't think any modern theorists claim that consciousness is a physical thing, rather it is a process. More akin to a computer program than a computer. Change a resistor or even a processor in a computer (heck, replace the whole thing) and the program still runs. So the "original parts" really don't matter at all.

Here's the Important Question
What is it about human beings that allows us to maintain our identity over time--such that we can say we're still ourselves--even when we go through such radical physical changes that we can have entirely different bodies over a period of years?
It can't be anything physical. Why? Our bodies are changing constantly. All our physical parts are replaced piece by piece every seven years. If this student can possess three different bodies over time and still be himself, then his real self cannot be physical.

But it can be a process "running" on a physical basis.

It isn't my memory, either. I don't remember being conceived or being born. My first recollection is of my second birthday when I got bumped by a pick-up truck and broke my leg. But my existence didn't begin on my second birthday when my memories began. Further, if I lost my memory tomorrow, would I cease to exist? If I had a Vulcan mind-meld and got your memories, would I be you? If so, then who would you be?

First off consious memory is a subset of human memory. So the fact that you don't remember every event in your life doesn't maen those events have not effected the "process" of our consciousness. In fact psychoanalysts would insist that the unconscious memories as important or more important than the conscious ones. The questions about mind melds and memory loss are hyptohetical at this point (probably for the best). We don't know the answer. People can have radical changes to their personalities (identities?) after brain trauma. We can't really try the mind meld experiment yet, but it would be an intriguing one for consciousness researchers.

Our souls are the non-physical things that sustain our identities over time, even though our physical bodies grow up and grow old. If there is no soul, then you aren't the same one who was born on your birthday. There is a different you at every moment, with every change of your physical body. But you know you've been the same self for your entire lifetime. Therefore, you must have a soul.

Modern consciousness theory types would probably disagree. The question of identity is a REALLY difficult one and can't really be burshed aside that easily. I'll grant that a vitalist model is certainly more appealing than the idea that my identity is just a configuration of atoms...

Why Is the Soul Important?
First, if Time magazine is right, then Christianity is finished. If you are just your physical body, then when your body dies, you die. That's it. End of story. No heaven or hell. No final judgment. No sweet rewards. Nothing.

Only if you expect science to be able to find a soul. I would think most believers would just shrug when told that science hasn't foudn a soul saying, "What were you expecting?" Why would someone look to naturalism to support the supernatural?

This is why it's so important to be able to show--with reflections about decks and birthdays, for example--that there's more going on here than meets the scientific eye. What science is not capable of finding with chemical analysis we can discover with sensible reflection.

I'm sorry, but that's just an appeal to the "common sense". By that argument quantum theory must be wrong since it contradicts common sense. In fact consciousness research is a very rich field. Read Pinker or Dennett or Chalmers for examples. But don't expect science to find a soul and don't be troubled when it doesn't.

Second, a lot of time and effort goes into the development of our bodies, but how much attention do we give to our souls? When you die, your body is left behind, but you continue on. What kind of spiritual body will you take with you? Some people never miss a workout at the spa, but when it comes to the fitness of their souls, they're virtual couch potatoes.
Paul wrote Timothy, &quot;Bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come&quot; (1 Timothy 4:8). Paul's point was that soulish growth endures for eternity, and this growth has something to do with what happens in this life, not the next.
The writer to the Hebrews hints at this idea, I think, when he says, &quot;Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, in order that they might obtain a better resurrection&quot; (Hebrews 11:35).
Do humans have souls, or are we simply sophisticated computers made up of a brain and central nervous system? Your ability to answer that question will make a difference in how well you answer for your faith, and also how well you live your own life.
Not only does your soul exist, but developing your soul now has eternal consequences.

And I actually agree with all of this. I'll also grant that if I thought I did have a "soul" in the supernatural sense, I might be more inclined towards religion. For the record I do think I have a soul, but it's in the poetic sense.

Barron

datalcott
December 2nd 2003, 04:35 PM
Greg,

Two Questions for you,

First, you seem pretty confident that an immaterial, substantial soul is required to make sense out of personal identity over time. I haven't looked in depth into the question of identity, but my sense is that there are many Christian philosophers (conservative ones!) who would disagree with you. Can't there be some other way to make sense out of identity over time? Something like spatio-temporal continuity?

Second, along the same lines, why do you assume that without a soul there cannot be a resurrection, judgement, and eternal future. Why could God not resurrect the body the body (the _person_) unto judgement and an eternal future. Further, you would not want to argue that human souls are somehow eternal by nature (i.e. have always existed and will always exist, a la Plato), would you? It's only by God's power that souls will survive into the afterlife, right? So it seems possible that if we are only bodies, that they could also, though God's power, survive into the afterlife.

I think I agree (if you forced me to choose) that humans do have an immaterial substantial component, but I'm not sure it's required to solve these particular problems.

STR Ambassador
December 8th 2003, 04:57 PM
I'm not familiar with any conservative Christians who would say that the soul isn't necessary to make sense out of personal identity over time. Some Christians do, Nancy Murphy for instance. But Nancy and others that hold her view have adopted physicalism and postmodernism as their primary philosophy and are trying to make Christianity fit those molds. I critiqued Murphy's view on my radio show on Sunday, December 7, 2003. You can find that show on our web site at www.str.org (posted about a week after airing).

A spatio-temporal view has been proposed but is fraught with difficulties. The issue is too detailed to get into here. The best source I can suggest is a book called "Body & Soul" by J.P. Moreland and Scott Rae. It's a comprehensive book from a biblical and philosophy view. I think you'll find answers to your doubts there.

Defenestrator
January 14th 2004, 12:07 PM
The problem of maintaining identity is a problem for more than just humans. What about trees? Surely the giant oak down the street is the same tree as the young sapling that stood there a few decades ago. What about animals? I think the problem of identity is a good case against physicalism or materialism, but I think it is a weak case for arguing that there is a soul.