Religion and Sexuality

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Continuing this convo from the Shout box.

I personally have never subscribed to the idea of Sexuality being fixed one way or another. People have different degrees of Hetero and Homosexual tendencies. However, the problem I have with folks who think they can "Cure gay" is that they more likely than not force people to supress who they really are.
I guess My point is, Religious fanatics who push the "Magic Jesus Gay Cure Pill" often wind up doing more psychological damage than they do actual good. rather than letting that person change their minds on their own, they enact rituals to "Cast out" spirits, and eventually get that person to an altered state where they will do just about anything to just be left alone. Is that really where you want people to be at when they make a life changing decision?
Personally speaking, I worked out my own sexuality issue along time ago. but it didn't take people waving a magic Jesus want to do it, it took me taking time, to meditate, pray and think as to where I am as a person and as an individual. It is up to the individual to determine their sexual orientation, not anyone else who wants to enforce their religious ideology on others.

[Hamster]

I agree that most people can't change. I But think some are close enough to the middle that they can get by to function in an extreme circumstance like desperately trying to blend in to society or being in prison.

There are even gay people that acknowledge that they are gay but want to be married, so they find a woman they care about and who knows about their situation, marry them, and either adopt or use artificial insemination to have children with them. What should someone say to them? You are obligated not to enter that relationship you find spiritually and emotionally fulfilling because the hormones in your mom's womb cooked you a different way?



I have with folks who think they can "Cure gay" is that they more likely than not force people to supress who they really are.


They don't have the power to force people to do anything... gay people go there to explore. I don't see any reason not to consider it, especially if you think you will be happier as a heterosexual. Some gays who go into them describe them as positive experiences whether they end up celibate or in a heterosexual relationship or not.



rather than letting that person change their minds on their own, they enact rituals to "Cast out" spirits, and eventually get that person to an altered state where they will do just about anything to just be left alone. Is that really where you want people to be at when they make a life changing decision?


I don't think they consider homosexuailty a "spirit" that can be cast out. At least not all of them. The ones I've encountered mostly see it as a weakness or disorder of the flesh that makes someone especially vulnerable to having forms of homosexual sex which they believe are sins.



.I worked out my own sexuality issue along time ago. but it didn't take people waving a magic Jesus want to do it, it took me taking time, to meditate, pray and think as to where I am as a person and as an individual. It is up to the individual to determine their sexual orientation, not anyone else who wants to enforce their religious ideology on others.


Well, it's true a lot of Christians take a glib or superficial position on sexuality, but that's not true of all of them and not even true of all the people in the 'ex-gay' movement.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Hamster; as an ex-fundie i know that that is EXACTLY how they see issue of sexuality. Alot of the "Ex-gays" I have met eventually realized they were living a lie and wind up hurting their hetero partner and any family they might have had with them.

While I dont believe that people are stuck one way or another, I also don't believe that anyone ever loses the tendencies. I just believe that unless you are hurting someone, what you do with your life is really your business. and unfortunately the so called "Ex-gay Movement' does exactly that.

[Hamster]

Hamster; as an ex-fundie i know that that is EXACTLY how they see issue of sexuality. Alot of the "Ex-gays" I have met eventually realized they were living a lie and wind up hurting their hetero partner and any family they might have had with them.

Never heard of that, outside some extreme pentacostal circles, I guess. I agree that if you are gay, you shouldn't "lie" to yourself by pretending you're straight. If you want to eventually marry a woman, that's great, but if you don't work through it, and merely pretend it doesn't exist, it creates all kinds of self-destructive behaviors.. and yeah, destroys the marriages they desperately wanted to be in in the first place. I think a lot of Christians hear "I'm gay" and they assume that it means you agree with what they'd call "gay activists" about gay sex or gay society. All it really means, though, is "for whatever reason I'm only sexually attracted to members of my sex." It doesn't entail any particular lifestyle



While I dont believe that people are stuck one way or another, I also don't believe that anyone ever loses the tendencies. I just believe that unless you are hurting someone, what you do with your life is really your business. and unfortunately the so called "Ex-gay Movement' does exactly that.

For a lot of gay Christians, if they weren't "stuck" in that orientation, they'd definitely be out of it or ignoring it for their 'hetero' side. It can be a real nightmare... especially if you had your heart set on a family and children which most christians are. I've spent 12 years praying for prostate cancer so I'll be rendered asexual or something (I dont think it works that way though...) and praying that I'll die young so I won't have to endure 60+ years of it or break and fall into sin. I REALLY envy people that are flexible enough to "go both ways," and until my mid 20s I thought I might be like that

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Hamster: I know how you feel, :hug:
At this point in my life, I am married to a really great woman, and I wouldn't trade my life for anything in the world BUT Praying that it goes away just doesn't really work, I had to come to grips with my sexuality and make a choice that I will remain faithful to my wife for as long as I am married to her.
It takes a lot of focus and you have to make some tough calls.

Still, I would rather make the choices because I want to, not because I am afraid of some guy in a red suit.

[Catholicity]

You know, this is an issue that I have seen first hand how it just can tear people up inside. And, I believe that there is a real struggle out there. No I don't buy that homosexuality is a "demon" but I do believe it is a struggle composed of multiple psychological and in a very few cases (such as womb exposure to estrogen in males or tesosterone in females) there are genetic predispositions which increases the likelihood of feeling such tendencies. Psychologically speaking several well respected studies have shown that many people exhibiting homosexual behaviors experienced sexual abuse from a person of the same sex (in males) and in females the opposite sex. This data suggests that pain combined with early experience creates confusion unable to be expressed in healthy manners. (this applies to abused victims only)
None of this locks a person into one behavior or set of behaviors. Strictly speaking at its core, I don't approve of homosexual behavior, that does not mean that I think that people who struggle with the tendency toward it are "bad" or that there thoughts are "bad" "evil" or even "ill" thoughts in all cases. I believe that it is the duty of one to do what is right to the best of their ability (if this mean abstinence then thats perfectly acceptable, in as much as it is required of an unmarried heterosexual man or woman to stay abstinent) I believe that thoughts that have been expressed such as the desire to die, or be afflicted because of this struggle, need help, so that they can learn to love themselves, and deal with the hurt which has carried over this far appropriately.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Catholiccity: the problem is that Not everyone agrees with the catholic position of abstinence, nor should they have to. Also, not all GLBT people are the way they are because they are "damaged" but rather many are damaged by the hatred and negativity given to them by the religious communities. In my congregation we welcome all people as they are and let them find their own path of spirituality that makes the best sense to them. Religion should be a matter of "Giving something up" but meeting the divine and learning how to be good people on their own, rather than religious leaders setting expectations that they themselves don't live up to.