public education alternatives

[Amazing Rando]

Hi everybody.

In my never-ending quest to understand other people, I've come to the question of public education. I come from a family of teachers- Mom is an elementary guidance councilor, Dad was a Jr. High science teacher, and my little brother is attending college to be a math and physics teacher. Dad was very active in the NEA and the other teachers' associations, so our family has always been staunchly behind public education.

I'd like to get the perspective of home-schoolers and those who went to private schools. What was it you liked most about your educational experience? What did you like least? Do you think that you were better prepared for the rest of your life by your education that were public school-educated students? Did your religion play any part in your choice or your parents' choice to home school you? Anything else of interest that you can tell me?

This question applies to those who were the product of home schools or other private education as well as to those who have kids they are homeschooling or sending to private schools. To the latter, why have you decided not to send your kids to public schools?

I had a very positive experience (for the most part) in the public school system I went through (though I of course had to get my biblical worldview from elsewhere). At this point in time, I have no reason not to send my kids to public schools, so I was just curious as to what kinds of experiences you all had in your homeschool or private school environment, and why those of you who have kids decided against the public school system.

Thanks a lot for your input!

P.S. Is this the right forum to post this in?

[mossrose]

I think it is fine here, AR. :smile:

Good topic.

[John Reece]

Today @ 01:36 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=327508#post327508)
Amazing Rando:

Hi everybody.

In my never-ending quest to understand other people, I've come to the question of public education. I come from a family of teachers- Mom is an elementary guidance councilor, Dad was a Jr. High science teacher, and my little brother is attending college to be a math and physics teacher. Dad was very active in the NEA and the other teachers' associations, so our family has always been staunchly behind public education.

I'd like to get the perspective of home-schoolers and those who went to private schools. What was it you liked most about your educational experience? What did you like least? Do you think that you were better prepared for the rest of your life by your education that were public school-educated students? Did your religion play any part in your choice or your parents' choice to home school you? Anything else of interest that you can tell me?

This question applies to those who were the product of home schools or other private education as well as to those who have kids they are homeschooling or sending to private schools. To the latter, why have you decided not to send your kids to public schools?

I had a very positive experience (for the most part) in the public school system I went through (though I of course had to get my biblical worldview from elsewhere). At this point in time, I have no reason not to send my kids to public schools, so I was just curious as to what kinds of experiences you all had in your homeschool or private school environment, and why those of you who have kids decided against the public school system.

I too had a very positive experience in the public school system. However, the public school system in the U.S.A. today is radically different for what it was when I went through it in the 1940s. I was not aware of the change until my younger daughter was in high school and my wife encouraged her to bring home what she was receiving in school. At about that same time, a physician's wife (whom my wife had known years earlier when they were both involved in teacher training) put on a workshop at a local university where she presented documentation of what was being presented to students in the public school system. As I spent that day hearing and seeing what she presented, I keep saying to myself, "That's why I'm seeing what I am seeing in the young people who are showing up at the Mental Health Center" (where I was then working and from which I have since retired).

Don't ask me for details, because I no longer have the energy or memory to provide such. However, it was as a result of what I learned while my younger daughter was in public school that I encouraged both of my daughters to do what they decided to do on their own initiative: that is, homeschool their children, the oldest of which is an 18 year old college freshman who is majoring in math, making all “A”s in his courses (including Calculus in his first semester), and is very happy, wise, and mature for his age.

[Amazing Rando]

Hmm. I thought I'd get a few more responses. But at least someone cares! Thanks John!
Yesterday @ 05:43 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=327847#post327847)
John Reece:

I too had a very positive experience in the public school system. However, the public school system in the U.S.A. today is radically different for what it was when I went through it in the 1940s. I was not aware of the change until my younger daughter was in high school and my wife encouraged her to bring home what she was receiving in school. At about that same time, a physician's wife (whom my wife had known years earlier when they were both involved in teacher training) put on a workshop at a local university where she presented documentation of what was being presented to students in the public school system. As I spent that day hearing and seeing what she presented, I keep saying to myself, "That's why I'm seeing what I am seeing in the young people who are showing up at the Mental Health Center" (where I was then working and from which I have since retired).

Don't ask me for details, because I no longer have the energy or memory to provide such. However, it was as a result of what I learned while my younger daughter was in public school that I encouraged both of my daughters to do what they decided to do on their own initiative: that is, homeschool their children, the oldest of which is an 18 year old college freshman who is majoring in math, making all “A”s in his courses (including Calculus in his first semester), and is very happy, wise, and mature for his age.

So it was some of the specific things that were being taught that has turned your opinion against public schools? I'm very tempted to ask for some of the details, but as you said you probably wouldn't remember them, I won't. Thanks for the input though John!

There's no denying public schools are quite different than they once were. Religion is tolerated much less than it once was. That's one big beef I know a lot of home schoolers have with public education. Was that part of your reasoning? I'm probably 5-8 years away from having kids of my own, but I'm thinking about this issue already.

Perhaps one of the advantages I had in my public school education was the fact that my school district is the most affluent in Pennsylvania. We had a lot of opportunities and top-notch teachers that students from some of the neighboring districts didn't have.

Anybody else out there have any comments or answers to the questions posed in my OP?

[mossrose]

I thought I'd get a few more responses

Give it a little time. It's the weekend, some people aren't on as much, it could come to life at any time down the road. :smile:

I have some opinions, but neither myself nor my kids were home-schooled or in private schools, so I will wait to voice my thoughts until we get some more feedback.

[Socrates]

Rando

I've explained in my post Public school problems (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?action=showthread&postid=87664#post87664) why I think that Christian parents sending their kids to today's humanism-dominated government schools is like Moses sending the Israelites to Canaanite schools.

~Soc. :soc:

[John Reece]

Today @ 02:46 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=328349#post328349)
Amazing Rando:
. . . . . .

There's no denying public schools are quite different than they once were. Religion is tolerated much less than it once was. That's one big beef I know a lot of home schoolers have with public education. Was that part of your reasoning?
. . . . .

I think I would remember if religion had anything at all to do with it. I do not recall religion being in any way a factor - unless you mean by "religion" any sense of right or wrong or basic morality that even non-religious people who care about the welfare of there children would have.

My wife's memory is much better than mine. When she wakes up, I'll ask her about it and see if I can get from her enough information to make a contribution to this thread.

One thing I do remember, which I can relate, is an episode that occurred when my wife and I and daughter were at home together one evening. A female classmate of the daughter knocked on the door and asked to see the daughter. She was invited in and the two girls went to my girl's bedroom and stayed for a while. I noticed that although we have a 300-foot driveway and live far from other houses in the country, there was no vehicle in sight. How, I wondered, did the girl get to our house. I stood in the yard a while and listened. I could hear the voices of at least two young men - out of sight at the end of the driveway (it was dark, and the driveway snakes its way through woodland). The girls came out of the bedroom and asked if my daughter could go out that evening with her friend and the friend's boyfriend. I asked if anyone other then the three of them would be going. The girl said "No" and that the boyfriend was waiting for them alone in his vehicle. I said "Does he talk to himself?" (Remember, I had heard him talking with someone at the end of my driveway). I said I'd have to talk with the boyfriend first. While they went back into the bedroom. I took a walk up the driveway, where I found two cars, each driven by a young man. It was a scheme to get my daughter to go out alone in a vehicle with a young man I did not know, under false pretenses.

My daughter stayed home that night and we had a conversation about why she and her friend had lied to me. I discovered that it was a common way of thinking among her peers that the thing to do was to lie to your parents and then do whatever your friends wanted you to do. My wife discovered, after encouraging the daughter to bring home everything she was given in classes at school, that such thinking was encouraged by materials presented to students by teachers - things that were in the form of handouts that the students were not supposed to take home.

Well, my wife has gotten up this morning and has refreshed my memory at bit.

The public school system was eroding relationships between children and parents by teaching students that they did not have to listen to their parents. They were encouraged to make up their own minds about what is right or wrong. This carried over to his or her attitude toward any authority – an attitude that said “I don’t have to listen to what anybody says. I can do anything I want to do.”

We learned about the Values Clarification games in which the child is required to make life and death decisions about who lives and who dies, in a way that devalues human life: this person’s life is worth living, but that person is expendable. My daughter had a very close relationship with a mentally ill family member. In a Values Clarification game at school, her classmates voted to kill a mentally ill person. Needless to say, that was very disturbing to my daughter.

There was also the fact that Western and American history was being radically re-written to conform to ideological agendas.

I mentioned in my prior post that, as my wife’s friend spent a whole day presenting documentation of things that were being presented to students in public schools, I kept saying to myself as I listened and read the material being presented on screen, “That’s why I’m seeing what I’m seeing in young people who are showing up the Mental Health Center.” What I was seeing was youngsters whose lives were being ruined by alcohol and other drug abuse, pre-marital sexual experiences, trouble with law enforcement agencies, and problems relating to any kind of authority.

There’s much more, but that, I think, is the gist of it all.

[Socrates]

Yesterday @ 03:43 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=327847#post327847)
John Reece:

Don't ask me for details, because I no longer have the energy or memory to provide such. However, it was as a result of what I learned while my younger daughter was in public school that I encouraged both of my daughters to do what they decided to do on their own initiative: that is, homeschool their children, the oldest of which is an 18 year old college freshman who is majoring in math, making all “A”s in his courses (including Calculus in his first semester), and is very happy, wise, and mature for his age.
:joy: What a great legacy :banana:

[Amazing Rando]

Today @ 03:03 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=328359#post328359)
Socrates:

Rando

I've explained in my post Public school problems (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?action=showthread&postid=87664#post87664) why I think that Christian parents sending their kids to today's humanism-dominated government schools is like Moses sending the Israelites to Canaanite schools.

~Soc. :soc:

Alrighty, I suppose I'll respond to that post then.

I'm definitely with Susan here! I also agree that public school is the pits. It concentrates on the mean, not individuals. So very bright people or the opposite can be left out.

That's quite the blanket condemnation, isn't it? I'll allow you to change that statement to "some of the public schools systems," "many public school systems," or even "most public school systems" are "the pits." But you can't reasonably say that every single teacher, administrator, and class being taught in the public school system is poor, at least not without experiencing them for yourself. Surely you realize this?

As to your point about the public schools leaving the brightest or the slowest students behind, I can only speak from personal experience. Please don't consider this bragging, I'm just trying to relate my own experience so you can have a better idea of where I'm coming from. I'm 23, so I'm only 5 years removed from my public high school education. My district had an award-winning gifted education course, of which I had the priveledge to have experienced it. For one hour a day, I was separated from the rest of the grade level, and taught completely different subject matter than the other kids dealt with at a more accelerated pace. We also had a special education program, in which the kids who were learning disabled or who just needed more individualized attention got it. My school, at least, was quite concerned about the education of its top as well as its bottom.

On top of the academics, my school also had an outstanding set of extracurricular activities geared to just about any interest you can think of. I played trumpet in the marching band, concert band, and even the dixieland band. I also got involved in my senior year with the drama club, and played Commander Harbison in "South Pacific" (where I met my wonderful fiance I might add!).

Also, far too many people are emerging from high school who can't read properly (because of the absurd "look and guess" method), or who need calculators to work out 7x9. So maybe it' time to give homeschooling a fair go.

I'm not familiar with "look and guess." Must be an Australian thing!:wink: It is a valid point that some public schools are of very low quality- especially those in very rural areas or the inner city. This explains why so many parents in those areas choose to send their kids to Catholic schools or other private school systems. Indeed, the quality of the local public schools certainly is a valid reason to send your kids elsewhere.

But because of the failings of some, you can't be bad-mouthing the whole. There are a great many brilliant and talented teachers out there in the public school system. I know, because I had a few of them! Yes, I also had my share of clunkers, but the balance of the teachers I had were very competent.

Again, you need to look at this objectively- while their are a great many parents who are competent and able to educate their own children, there are a great many who are not. This same goes for public school teachers- many good as well as bad ones. Homeschooling is not implicitly better than public schools simply because of the quality of the educators, and the same holds true for public schools.

And back to the Biblical reasons -- parents have the duty to educate their kids, not the government. And it is a severe dereliction of parental responsibity to hand kids over to humanists to be educated.

I agree with you- parents must educate their own children. My parents loved me, read to me, and began teaching me from the day I was born. Thus when I entered kindergarten, I had an early start advantage over some who weren't as blessed with loving parents.

The reality of the matter is, not every family can economically afford to have one parent stay home full time to educate the children or pay the large tuition fees that often accompany good private schools. My mom took two years off of work with each of us- my brother and myself, to ensure that we got the proper start to our lives. We, as a family, could not afford for her to take any more years off work, so David and I went to our church's day care and preschool until we were old enough for kindergarten.

Think of it this way: would evangelical parents be considered responsible if they sent their kids to Sunday school knowing that the teacher was a rabid liberal who denied the Resurrection and Deity of Christ, and claimed that the Bible taught lots of errors in faith, morality and history? Probably not, even though it's for only one hour per week. I doubt that they would make the usual pathetic justification "Someone has to witness to the other kids."

This is an important issue. Parents need to be aware of what their children are learning at school, and to reinforce the kids with their positive values and what they believe to be the truth. If they feel their child is learning "lies" or poor values in school it's up to the parents to become involved in their children's lives and teach them (at home) what is true, and why it is true. This will equip their kids with critical thinking skills so that they will be able to decide the truth of what they hear in school for themselves. That's one thing I believe strongly in- that kids have the right to make decisions for themselves. Parents' duties ought to involve equipping their kids with the tools they need to make the right decisions- not making those decisions for them.

Yet the same parents send their kids to Monday-to-Friday schools for 6 hours per day, where most of the teachers believe the same things. And this ludicrous justification is trotted out. And even if the teachers are not rabidly anti-Christian and forcing pre-pubescent kids to learn the virtues of condoms, the whole system excludes God. So kids are being fed, 6 hours per day, five days per week, the implicit notion that God doesn't matter. So this totally undermines the Proverbs that "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" and "the beginning of knowledge".

That's an enormous assumption, Soc. "Most of the teachers" are not Christian? You have no way of knowing this, and that has been the opposite of my experience. I had many a teacher who did teach us Christian values, and who probably would have gotten into dicussions about Christ and God had they been allowed to by district policy and school law. As I mentioned in my first post, I come from a family of Christian public school teachers. My fiance is going to be a Christian public school teacher (choir and music education to be precise).

You do realize the reason "the whole system excludes God," right? It's because not all students in the school system are Christian. Don't you think it would be wrong to force all non-Christian students to have a Christian education? God allows us free-will so that we cannot say we were compelled one way or the other to accept or reject the Gospel, yet he gives us enough evidence of his truth and love that choosing him and accepting Christ's sacrifice is the most reasonable option. I think we owe this same approach to our own children.

[bar Jonah]

I experienced both public school and home schooling. The former was so terrible that my parents took me out and schooled me at home, even though they didn't want to have to. In fact, they have said many times that they think it's a travesty that they couldn't in good conscience send their kids to public schools.

As soon as I started schooling at home, I excelled... a stark contrast to the C's, D's and F's I was getting in public school. Teachers openly ridiculing students just for the kind of music they listened to, and other teachers openly passing out pills after class (the principle told my father, "Oh, is he doing that again?") ... these things also played a big part in my parents' choice.

One of the biggest reasons for these problems is the almost total lack of accountability. The tenure rules have made it nigh impossible to hold teachers accountable for their performance. Indeed, the teachers union is vehemently against any measure that would actually have teachers paid based on actual performance.

It is truly a sign of the times when I see the Arby's marquis offering $8.50 for cashiers. Why two-and-a-half bucks over minimum wage? Because they are having such a difficult time finding high school students who can do math well enough to give change to customers.

Then, when you see public school systems purveying math textbooks that don't even teach math for the first 150 pages but just talk about social issues and environmentalism ... when you see public schools requiring students to practice the tenets of Islam in order to learn about it in social studies class ... and many many other issues I'm sure Socrates covered better than I could.... it becomes increasingly and frighteningly clear that the good teachers and good schools are the exception and not the rule.

[Amazing Rando]

Today @ 02:04 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=328742#post328742)
John Reece:

I think I would remember if religion had anything at all to do with it. I do not recall religion being in any way a factor - unless you mean by "religion" any sense of right or wrong or basic morality that even non-religious people who care about the welfare of there children would have.

Ok, that's cool! I can see the denial of absolutes in morality as one strike against public schools. However, I think that a Christian parent ought to teach their kids this value, regardless of what the school says.

One thing I do remember, which I can relate, is an episode that occurred when my wife and I and daughter were at home together one evening.

[snipped for brevity]

My daughter stayed home that night and we had a conversation about why she and her friend had lied to me. I discovered that it was a common way of thinking among her peers that the thing to do was to lie to your parents and then do whatever your friends wanted you to do. My wife discovered, after encouraging the daughter to bring home everything she was given in classes at school, that such thinking was encouraged by materials presented to students by teachers - things that were in the form of handouts that the students were not supposed to take home.[quote]

Good for you for talking to her about it! Many poorer parents I know about would have let that one slip by.

That's awful- teaching kids to lie as a matter of convenience? I dunno what ethics classes your daughter had, but that's scary!

[quote]Well, my wife has gotten up this morning and has refreshed my memory at bit.

The public school system was eroding relationships between children and parents by teaching students that they did not have to listen to their parents. They were encouraged to make up their own minds about what is right or wrong. This carried over to his or her attitude toward any authority – an attitude that said “I don’t have to listen to what anybody says. I can do anything I want to do.”

That's an interesting and odd humanist philosophy- one I'm all to familiar with. Thanks for sharing this with me, John. It's helping me to get a perspective on what other people's experiences were in the public schools.

We learned about the Values Clarification games in which the child is required to make life and death decisions about who lives and who dies, in a way that devalues human life: this person’s life is worth living, but that person is expendable. My daughter had a very close relationship with a mentally ill family member. In a Values Clarification game at school, her classmates voted to kill a mentally ill person. Needless to say, that was very disturbing to my daughter.

I did that too- as a senior in high school. It was part of a philosophy class. We were supposed to be the President, and on the threshhold of a nuclear war. There was only one bunker that the scientists assured us would be absolutely impregnable by nuclear blasts or fallout, and that bunker could only hold and support the lives of 7 people for long periods of time. We were given a list of about 15 possible candidates and had to choose 7 of them to be the only ones to survive the global nuclear holocaust and continue the human race. I guess the thinking of it was that saving these 7 would be better than saving none at all.

I wasn't truly "saved" in any real sense of the word at the time, so I didn't think much of it at the time, other than what a hard decision it was. However in retrospect, finally speaking as a true Christian, I find it odd that I wasn't so completely turned off by the whole concept at the time. I can completely understand your objections to this, because for the most part, I share them now. Thanks for making me think! This was exactly what I hoped to get out of this thread.

There was also the fact that Western and American history was being radically re-written to conform to ideological agendas.

That's very true.

I mentioned in my prior post that, as my wife’s friend spent a whole day presenting documentation of things that were being presented to students in public schools, I kept saying to myself as I listened and read the material being presented on screen, “That’s why I’m seeing what I’m seeing in young people who are showing up the Mental Health Center.” What I was seeing was youngsters whose lives were being ruined by alcohol and other drug abuse, pre-marital sexual experiences, trouble with law enforcement agencies, and problems relating to any kind of authority.

There’s much more, but that, I think, is the gist of it all.

Do you think that these effects on the morality of the kids who were showing up at the health center were due mostly to the public education they were receiving? Or do you think it might be more due to the increasing negligence of parents across the Western world today? Maybe a combination of both?

[John Reece]

Today @ 05:58 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=328892#post328892)
Amazing Rando:

. . . . . .

Do you think that these effects on the morality of the kids who were showing up at the health center were due mostly to the public education they were receiving? Or do you think it might be more due to the increasing negligence of parents across the Western world today? Maybe a combination of both?

I have all too many friends and acquaintances whose children have been completely demoralized by the public school system. I am referring to families the parents of which were quite involved with their children during the time they were not in school. These were the antithesis of “negligent” parents. But the parents were oblivious to the systematic desensitization of their children in the public school system. Public school was O.K. they went through, and they assumed nothing had radically changed.

One case was that of the pastor who performed the marriage ceremony for my wife and me. I remember this wonderfully bright and beautiful daughter of the pastor who was about 6 years old at the time, who was so delightful to my wife and me while we were in the pastor’s home. In public school she was put in the “gifted and talented” track, wherein much of the brainwashing is concentrated. While still in school, she became pregnant. She is still single and her parents are rearing the child of their daughter.

Another case is that of two friends we have known by being involved in the same churches. The father served as interim pastor of the Presbyterian church where my wife plays the organ, and (at a different stage in life) we also were involved in another church where these friends and their children were members. The children were a son and a daughter. The son wound up with an alcohol problem that resulted in multiple DWI convictions and expulsion from college. The daughter became alienated from her parents and involved with drug abuse and drug abusing boyfriends.

The children referred to above were not neglected (unless you consider sending children to public school a form of neglect), and they learned from their parents none of the things that ruined their lives.

[Socrates]

Today @ 03:32 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=328873#post328873)
Amazing Rando:

That's quite the blanket condemnation, isn't it? I'll allow you to change that statement to "some of the public schools systems," "many public school systems," or even "most public school systems" are "the pits." But you can't reasonably say that every single teacher, administrator, and class being taught in the public school system is poor, at least not without experiencing them for yourself. Surely you realize this?

I never said that. I was talking about the most common situation.

I'm not familiar with "look and guess." Must be an Australian thing!:wink:

Yeah, but we got it from the Yanks. Our educrats and lawyers always pick up the dregs from American intelligentsia long after they have proved disastrous in your country.

But because of the failings of some, you can't be bad-mouthing the whole. There are a great many brilliant and talented teachers out there in the public school system. I know, because I had a few of them! Yes, I also had my share of clunkers, but the balance of the teachers I had were very competent.

So parents should take the risk of getting a crappy teacher, protected by aggressive unions from being dismissed. What I said was far too common, hardly an isolated occurrence.

Again, you need to look at this objectively- while their are a great many parents who are competent and able to educate their own children, there are a great many who are not. This same goes for public school teachers- many good as well as bad ones.

Right, so in those case, use a genuinely Christian school.

Homeschooling is not implicitly better than public schools simply because of the quality of the educators, and the same holds true for public schools.

Home schooling seems to be the norm in Scripture.

I agree with you- parents must educate their own children. My parents loved me, read to me, and began teaching me from the day I was born. Thus when I entered kindergarten, I had an early start advantage over some who weren't as blessed with loving parents.

But the public schools have the kids 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, and the teachers have quasi-parental authority. Why should parents send their kids to a school where teachers have so much time to program them into a godless worldview?

The reality of the matter is, not every family can economically afford to have one parent stay home full time to educate the children or pay the large tuition fees that often accompany good private schools. My mom took two years off of work with each of us- my brother and myself, to ensure that we got the proper start to our lives. We, as a family, could not afford for her to take any more years off work, so David and I went to our church's day care and preschool until we were old enough for kindergarten.

Well, blame the feminists for making it hard for single-income families. I also wonder whether two incomes are needed or just wanted for luxuries.

This is an important issue. Parents need to be aware of what their children are learning at school, and to reinforce the kids with their positive values and what they believe to be the truth. If they feel their child is learning "lies" or poor values in school it's up to the parents to become involved in their children's lives and teach them (at home) what is true, and why it is true.

So why should the kids believe parents over teachers who have all day to indoctrinate them, and peers who are more likely to pull them down? Which happens more often when kids from Christian homes mix with kids from heathen homes in public schools? Do the heathen kids bring home the Bible verses and hymns, or the the Christian ones bring home swear words and dirty jokes?

This will equip their kids with critical thinking skills so that they will be able to decide the truth of what they hear in school for themselves. That's one thing I believe strongly in- that kids have the right to make decisions for themselves. Parents' duties ought to involve equipping their kids with the tools they need to make the right decisions- not making those decisions for them.

Critical thinking skills are very important, but many public schools by their very nature have already uncritically removed God from any thinking.

That's an enormous assumption, Soc. "Most of the teachers" are not Christian? You have no way of knowing this, and that has been the opposite of my experience.

The NEA is dominated by leftist humanists.

I had many a teacher who did teach us Christian values, and who probably would have gotten into dicussions about Christ and God had they been allowed to by district policy and school law.

They are few and far between, and are restricted in what they can do without atheistic bully boys breathing down their necks -- see Chemistry teacher resigns amid persecution (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2001/0918news.asp).

As I mentioned in my first post, I come from a family of Christian public school teachers. My fiance is going to be a Christian public school teacher (choir and music education to be precise).

Good for you.

You do realize the reason "the whole system excludes God," right? It's because not all students in the school system are Christian. Don't you think it would be wrong to force all non-Christian students to have a Christian education?

I couldn't give a monkey's WHY the system excludes God, just that it DOES. And that should be enough for Christian parents not to use them.

God allows us free-will so that we cannot say we were compelled one way or the other to accept or reject the Gospel, yet he gives us enough evidence of his truth and love that choosing him and accepting Christ's sacrifice is the most reasonable option. I think we owe this same approach to our own children.

What has this to do with the Biblical responsibility to educate our own children, and not to hand your kids over to Canaanites for education.

So, care to back up any of your points from Scripture instead of your own fallible opinion or experience?

[Ben Franklin]

Today @ 05:07 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=329438#post329438)
Socrates:

I never said that. I was talking about the most common situation.

Yeah, but we got it from the Yanks. Our educrats and lawyers always pick up the dregs from American intelligentsia long after they have proved disastrous in your country.

You guys are missing the underlying premise here. The state own your kids, and tells you how they will be educated. You gotta get back your right to raise your kids as you see fit, not as the government orders. Barring that, you're going nowhere fast.

[bar Jonah]

One important solution we need to impliment is vouchers. We must introduce competition into the education market. The present monopoly gives parents virtually no choices except to take what's handed to them, or go outside the market altogether. Once the educational system becomes accountable for the service it provides, it won't have any choice but to wake up and smell the coffee.

[spl_cadet]

I go to a National Blue Ribbon High School (what it's doing in California is a good question). It's the main reason I plan to homeschool my kids. Teacher abetted immorality (joking about the fact that a couple were engaged in fellatio on Auto 2's field trip :eek), idiotic teachers, teachers teaching pantheism, teachers coming to school drunk. The curriculum is insanely stupid (US history has one paragraph in the entire book about the Mexican-American War).

[Ben Franklin]

Today @ 06:57 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=329558#post329558)
RightIdea:

One important solution we need to impliment is vouchers. We must introduce competition into the education market. The present monopoly gives parents virtually no choices except to take what's handed to them, or go outside the market altogether. Once the educational system becomes accountable for the service it provides, it won't have any choice but to wake up and smell the coffee.

Who created the monopoly ? (Think hard now.) How does a voucher system solve that ? Tax money will still be spend on the lousy schools and teachers': the national education system has got to be dismantled and replaced by 100% private schooling.

[bar Jonah]

Ben Franklin:
Who created the monopoly ? (Think hard now.) How does a voucher system solve that ? Tax money will still be spend on the lousy schools and teachers': the national education system has got to be dismantled and replaced by 100% private schooling.
Some people want liberal public schooling for their children; go figure. I agree that should be one of the choices.

[Ben Franklin]

Today @ 07:50 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=329589#post329589)
RightIdea:

Some people want liberal public schooling for their children; go figure. I agree that should be one of the choices.

Oh, what I wouldn't give for the old days ! Sitting at Plato's (or Aristotle's) feet, soaking up my parents' money's worth !

:bonk:

[chickenman]

I went to a private secular school, and I never had any problems

[Socrates]

Yesterday @ 07:48 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=329665#post329665)
chickenman:

I went to a private secular school, and I never had any problems
:whack: But the Christian parents here may well regard Chicky's dogmatic and doctrinaire atheistic faith a problem. :bonk:

[bar Jonah]

chickenman:
I went to a private secular school, and I never had any problems
Never had any problems? You call yourself chickenman, but your avatar is a primate... making us wonder if you know the difference... and you want us to believe you had no problems?

:hrm:

[Socrates]

From the thread More evidence "zero tolerance" policies are just plain stupid: Student expelled 1 year for Advil (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?action=showthread&postid=329442#post329442).

Today @ 02:57 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=329789#post329789)
Socrates:

But for goodness's sake, wrecking this poor girl's education and future because she had ipubrofen?! It's one more example of the ridiculous over-regulation in modern society -- compare this more light-hearted post One for us old folks...... (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?action=showthread&postid=321375#post321375).

Today @ 03:03 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=329791#post329791)
spl_cadet:

I've always found public school to be the best reason for homeschooling. They are so idiotic.

[bar Jonah]

spl_cadet:
I've always found public school to be the best reason for homeschooling. They are so idiotic.
Indeed.

But I also agree with my father, that we shouldn't feel we have to do that. It shouldn't come to this. I'm not against public education at all. I'm just against the pathetic state it's in, today.

[Ben Franklin]

Today @ 07:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=329880#post329880)
RightIdea:

Indeed.

But I also agree with my father, that we shouldn't feel we have to do that. It shouldn't come to this. I'm not against public education at all. I'm just against the pathetic state it's in, today.

It's sort of built into the system, don't you think ? It's like the begging question, "Why does public service breed contempt ?" It always seems to go that way... Don't know if it's because that's the natural tendency of bureaucracies, or something else. To save public schools, you'll have to identify the root causes. If you say, well, public vouchers will change things, you're just giving people a choice of public schools, not actually identifying their inherent deficiencies. And since the voucher system simulates a capital system, then why not just go straight to cutting the HEW, and let parents' fund their children's education ? I'd like to avoid the whole socialistic education system in America, myself.

[Socrates]

Here's yet another example of anti-Christian bigotry in the public schools, which further proves my point that it's like Israelites sending their kids to Canaanite schools:

'Gay'-diversity week violated rights of Christian (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?action=showthread&postid=329876#post329876)

[Esther]

Amazing Rando:

In my never-ending quest to understand other people, I've come to the question of public education. I come from a family of teachers- Mom is an elementary guidance councilor, Dad was a Jr. High science teacher, and my little brother is attending college to be a math and physics teacher. Dad was very active in the NEA and the other teachers' associations, so our family has always been staunchly behind public education.

Try telling staunch ps'ers you're going to homeschool their grandchildren.

I'd like to get the perspective of home-schoolers and those who went to private schools. What was it you liked most about your educational experience?

Having gone to private schools for most of my elementary and high school years, I now appreciate that we focused most of our time on academics. That's something I can't say for our public school district.

What did you like least?

Looking back, I definitely do not like traditional, institutionalized, bulk schooling. I had a terrible time with that, being a slow (and yet not "special") learner. That kind of schooling is only suited to one type of student. The rest have to deal with it the best way they can.

Do you think that you were better prepared for the rest of your life by your education that were public school-educated students?

Definitely. My sister, public school brainwashed during her turbulent teen years, is a prime example of a companion of fools suffering harm. The difference between her life and mine is black and white. She has no end to trouble in her life because of the public school teacher who influenced her to rebell against her parents. The rest of the faculty and staff may have been Christian (they weren't) but it only took that one anti-family bimbo to ruin my sister's life.

OTOH, my teachers weren't bent on turning me onto a path contrary to the way my parents had raised me so I didn't struggle with the rebellion and self destructive issues that my sister did and still does at the age of 24.

Did your religion play any part in your choice or your parents' choice to home school you?

No, initially our Christian faith didn't play a part in our decision to homeschool our children. We were mainly interested in academics. At this point in life, however, it is the primary reason we homeschool and we have absolutely no intention of ever sending our kids to public schools.

Anything else of interest that you can tell me?

Depends on what you consider interesting. :wink:

This question applies to those who were the product of home schools or other private education as well as to those who have kids they are homeschooling or sending to private schools. To the latter, why have you decided not to send your kids to public schools?

We have decided not to send our kids to public schools because they are blatently anti-Christian, heavily influenced by the NEA. So your Dad doesn't have a problem with the NEA?

I had a very positive experience (for the most part) in the public school system I went through (though I of course had to get my biblical worldview from elsewhere). At this point in time, I have no reason not to send my kids to public schools, so I was just curious as to what kinds of experiences you all had in your homeschool or private school environment, and why those of you who have kids decided against the public school system.

We've been homeschooling for almost 6 years. It was my husband's idea. He wanted me to get a degree in education so I could homeschool. Heh heh. Yeah right. What made him think I'd want to spend 4 long years working towards something I had no interest in?

To prove to him once and for all that we couldn't homeschool, I got on the internet and looked up homeschool law. That sure didn't help my case any! But then after reading a ton of info on the internet on hs'ing, I became convinced that not only could I do it (I didn't need to meet any educational requirements), it sounded like it was going to be one of the most important things, after salvation, that I could ever do with my life.

I think it's important to tell you that we're not spending every moment of every day choosing not to send our kids to public schools. We are choosing every day to homeschool. There is a big difference in focus there. We think about how happy we are doing the things we do, not how we aren't sending the kids to ps.

I think there's a common misconception that we homeschoolers spend lots of time downing the ps system, that everything we say is somehow an inference about something bad about ps. Frankly I pity people who don't homeschool because I really enjoy it and think anyone who doesn't is missing out on a great thing. But I don't sit around dwelling on why I don't like ps.

OTOH, I think often of why I hs. We strongly suspect one of our sons has ADD. He also has a congenital defect in his back which causes him some pain. I am free to work with him in the way I deem most efficient to get concepts across, and if his back is bothering him, he can relax on the couch. And he doesn't have to worry about getting caught with ibuprofen. :nc:

[Amazing Rando]

Wow, I go away for a day or two and the dicussion gets away from me. Keep it up, thanks guys!

Yesterday @ 07:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=329880#post329880)
RightIdea:


Indeed.

But I also agree with my father, that we shouldn't feel we have to do that. It shouldn't come to this. I'm not against public education at all. I'm just against the pathetic state it's in, today.

RightIdea, I think that's a great point. There's nothing wrong with public education in principle, but objections like yours are very valid. That's why I'm tentatively in favor of a voucher system of some sort. There are places in the nation where the public schools are in absolute shambles. That's for sure, and that's where I think our efforts ought to concentrate- improving the puiblic schools, not removing ourselves from them.

Esther: We have decided not to send our kids to public schools because they are blatently anti-Christian, heavily influenced by the NEA. So your Dad doesn't have a problem with the NEA?

My Dad (who was a committed Christian I might add) died in February. He was very active in the NEA and saw it as an advocate for his rights as an employee- just like auto workers' unions and coal miners' unions are advocates for their rights. I disagreed with him on some issues, some issues I did not. While I don't understand or agree with your characterization of the NEA as "anti-Christian," I do respect your reasons for home schooling your kids and desiring to raise them the way that you want them to be raised.

The reason he had no problem with the NEA was because he respected the fact that his colleagues in the public schools are experts in their particular field (at least at the secondary level). They know a great deal about their subject matter and are qualified to teach the material to their students. Where many of them can and do go wrong is when they start to bring their personal values to play in conveying the subject matter and passing it off as if it were part of the course material. This is entirely against what the public school system is for, but it does occur, unfortunately, and is one of the things that needs to be fixed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So how about it everyone- how about some more experiences (either personal or your kids' experiences) in private schools, or homeschool? John Reece, RightIdea, and Esther have given me some good ones. Late's have some more! And Mossrose- what are your thoughts that you've been withholding thus far?

And how about anybody else who went through public schools? I'd like to hear your thoughts too.

[mossrose]

And Mossrose- what are your thoughts that you've been withholding thus far?

I went to public school in the very late 50's and 60's. (Yes, I am THAT old). There were no public schools in my area, and even had there been, with 6 children, my parents would not have been able to send us, or even one of us. Homeschooling was unheard of, at least where I grew up.

I remember in grade 5, the pastor of the church I grew up in came every Thursday afternoon for "religious" education in my particular class. Interestingly enough, I remember very little of what he taught us, only that he was there every week, welcomed by the school. (I grew up in a home where God was loved and respected, and I learned about Him early in my life.) I don't know if other pastors or church leaders came to teach other classes. This was not a Catholic school, but a publicly funded one.

Junior High (grades 7-9, or what you Yanks might call middle school) was an extension of elementary. In those days we said the Lord's prayer every morning, and my home room teacher read Scripture verses to us each day. We were well behaved, and knew there would be consequences to pay for misbehaviour.

High school began with things much the same, but late in my Grade 10 year, about 1969-70, I noticed some changes. Classes became less structured. I was placed in an experimental Social Studies class where the teacher taught us things like: pick a partner, stand with your back to your partner, fall backwards and trust the person to catch you. After a week of this, I asked my Mom to have me put into a regular social studies classroom.

By the end of my 12th year, 1972, the schools were really different than when I started in grade 10. Very lax about discipline, kids doing whatever they wanted, rude to teachers, sex education a given.......etc.

My kids went to school in the 80's and 90's. Of course, by then, things were pretty much like they are now, maybe not as bad. They attended public school, because the only private schools were Catholic, and no protestant private schools came into our area until after my kids were well into their teens.

We taught our children very carefully at home about how they were to behave in school; what they were to believe about certain things that were taught, i.e. evolution, sex ed, etc. We made sure they were very involved with our church's youth group. They both came through public education with their high standards intact, their brains drug- and alcohol-free, and their bodies pure. We are thankful to God for that. And some teachers who were willing to allow them to express their ideas and beliefs without ridicule. Those teachers, and I believe there are still a lot of them out there, are to be commended for their good will in doing so.

My children had many friends who went to both public schools, and later, to the Christian school that entered the area. The biggest problem we found with the kids who went to the Christian school was that there was a certain amount of "holier-than-thou" attitude about them. They thought they knew more about God and Scripture than my children, which was not the case. They may have had more structured training in those areas every day, but my kids were as knowledgeable, or more so at times.

The Christian school kids also seemed to have blinders on about what was really going on out in the world. My daughter would bring up a prayer request in the youth group regarding a friend at school, one in particular I remember who had alcohol poisoning and was in the hospital recovering. The Christian school kids looked at my daughter as if she were "from another planet" (in my daughter's words), and didn't seem to much care, OR have a clue about it. We always felt some concern about some of these Christian school kids when they went to college or university. Unless they continued to attend Christian higher education venues, they were in for some severe culture shock.

Home schooling began making inroads here just around the time my kids finished school. Right now, in my opinion, that would be the ideal way to educate your children. We have watched public schooling take a beating as standards in actual learning continue to slip; lack of discipline is rampant, teachers have no authority to be in control; and parents have no say over what their children are being taught. Secular humanism is rampant. Which should be no surprise.

The Christian school here in town is now partially funded by the province, which is a good thing, as tuition is lower. But, the school now cannot turn away any student because one or both of their parents are not Christians (as was one of the criteria when the school first started.......not one I necessarily agreed with.....that's why the kids had no clue about life outside the church/school walls). And, they are now seeing the same decay that is prevalent in the public schools. But that is only one school, here, where I live. The others elsewhere may be fine.

But, because I have no experience with home schooling in my own life, or my children's, and I only know a few, personally, who are home schooling their kids, I don't think I can give more than my opinion. I know that if and when I have grandchildren, I will encourage my children to look very carefully into that option.

As long as it is available, that is. Who knows when some do-gooder educator will decide that home schooling doesn't allow the children to be exposed to enough ideas other than the parents', especially "religious" ideas, and lobby to have home schooling disallowed. It could happen.


:nsm:

[John Reece]

While reading mossrose's comments, I was reminded of the time when I was pastor of a Presbyterian church in a small southern town. My older daughter was a teenager in high school, and my younger daughter was in elementary school. The year was 1970, and the public school student population was nearly all black, because the white children were nearly all in a private Christian school. It seemed to me at the time that the Christian school had been founded for the sole purpose of avoiding having the white children in school with the black children (the school was founded in the wake of racial desegregation in the 1960's). That was very disturbing me, and I kept my children in public school as a matter of principle, even though my salary as a Presbyterian minister was adequate for me to put the children in the private school, if I had chosen to do so.

But a couple of years later, when I had left the pastorate to work full-time in a Mental Health Center, my younger daughter was forbidden the right to attend a public school within walking distance from our house (2 blocks away) and was forced to be bused all the way across a southern city to attend public school in a black ghetto. That, too, was very disturbing to me. But I kept her in public school, because at the beginning of my career as a mental health counselor, I could not afford the cost of the private school located directly across the street from our house. Home-schooling was unheard of at the time (at least, I had never heard of it), and besides my (first) wife was at that time too sick to homeschool our children, even it had been an otherwise viable option for us.

[Socrates]

Yesterday @ 03:42 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=330373#post330373)
Esther:

We have decided not to send our kids to public schools because they are blatently anti-Christian, heavily influenced by the NEA. So your Dad doesn't have a problem with the NEA?

Esther is right, the NEA is dominated by pro-abortion and pro-homosexual humanists, and that's one good reason to avoid the public schools. But there are a few Christians there, and AiG has had a stall at their conventions. The hostility was incredibly strong though -- see this report (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2003/0711nea.asp) and the links to previous years' reports at the bottom.

[Esther]

(((AR))), I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your Dad.

Regarding the NEA, I don't know a whole lot about their history as a teacher's union but presently they are an incredibly liberal organization, promoting abortion and homosexuality as Socrates has already mentioned, and pretty much anything that runs counter to Christian values. Here is an article (http://http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/07-26-03/cover_1.asp) from the July 26, 2003 issue of World Magazine which agrees with this.

I am unimpressed with union labor - auto workers in particular; I would have to agree with you that the NEA is probably very much like them.

[Amazing Rando]

Yesterday @ 06:58 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=330930#post330930)
mossrose:

I went to public school in the very late 50's and 60's. (Yes, I am THAT old). There were no public schools in my area, and even had there been, with 6 children, my parents would not have been able to send us, or even one of us. Homeschooling was unheard of, at least where I grew up.

I'm assuming you mean "there were no private schools" in your area, right?

I remember in grade 5, the pastor of the church I grew up in came every Thursday afternoon for "religious" education in my particular class. Interestingly enough, I remember very little of what he taught us, only that he was there every week, welcomed by the school. (I grew up in a home where God was loved and respected, and I learned about Him early in my life.) I don't know if other pastors or church leaders came to teach other classes. This was not a Catholic school, but a publicly funded one.

I spent a semester studying abroad in Australia two years ago, and one of the Christian education majors I met over there told me about how the public schools also had a weekly "religious education" program for the kids. I was completely blown away because such a thing is unfortunately unheard of in America today. Is it still there still religious education today in Candadian public schools? That kind of thing shows that even in a modern supposedly secular society, religion can be mixed to a degree with public schools. It's a crying shame our courts think otherwise.

Junior High (grades 7-9, or what you Yanks might call middle school) was an extension of elementary. In those days we said the Lord's prayer every morning, and my home room teacher read Scripture verses to us each day. We were well behaved, and knew there would be consequences to pay for misbehaviour.

Oh wow... that's something! Very cool!

High school began with things much the same, but late in my Grade 10 year, about 1969-70, I noticed some changes. Classes became less structured. I was placed in an experimental Social Studies class where the teacher taught us things like: pick a partner, stand with your back to your partner, fall backwards and trust the person to catch you. After a week of this, I asked my Mom to have me put into a regular social studies classroom.

By the end of my 12th year, 1972, the schools were really different than when I started in grade 10. Very lax about discipline, kids doing whatever they wanted, rude to teachers, sex education a given.......etc.

Quite a change in two years! I remember doing something like that "trust fall" you describe- except I did it in Boy Scouts and in my church's youth group! It was a lot of fun, and pretty valuable if you ask me.

Why do you think your school changed so drastically so fast? Were there new teachers and administrators brought in?

My kids went to school in the 80's and 90's. Of course, by then, things were pretty much like they are now, maybe not as bad. They attended public school, because the only private schools were Catholic, and no protestant private schools came into our area until after my kids were well into their teens.

We taught our children very carefully at home about how they were to behave in school; what they were to believe about certain things that were taught, i.e. evolution, sex ed, etc. We made sure they were very involved with our church's youth group. They both came through public education with their high standards intact, their brains drug- and alcohol-free, and their bodies pure. We are thankful to God for that. And some teachers who were willing to allow them to express their ideas and beliefs without ridicule. Those teachers, and I believe there are still a lot of them out there, are to be commended for their good will in doing so.

That's excellent! Kudos to you for good parenting! I bet your kids turned out pretty well, eh? I think if you give your kids a solid enough foundation in the gospel, nothing can shake that from them.

My children had many friends who went to both public schools, and later, to the Christian school that entered the area. The biggest problem we found with the kids who went to the Christian school was that there was a certain amount of "holier-than-thou" attitude about them. They thought they knew more about God and Scripture than my children, which was not the case. They may have had more structured training in those areas every day, but my kids were as knowledgeable, or more so at times.

You've hit on a very big issue- pride. CS Lewis wrote the best piece of writing I've ever read on pride in one chapter of Mere Christianity. Perhaps such readings ought to be standard curriculum for Christian schooled children. Pride, as Lewis points out, is the sin that all of us fall into at some time- there's no escaping it. These Christian-schooled kids you describe sound like they don't really have an understanding of the gospel!

The Christian school kids also seemed to have blinders on about what was really going on out in the world. My daughter would bring up a prayer request in the youth group regarding a friend at school, one in particular I remember who had alcohol poisoning and was in the hospital recovering. The Christian school kids looked at my daughter as if she were "from another planet" (in my daughter's words), and didn't seem to much care, OR have a clue about it. We always felt some concern about some of these Christian school kids when they went to college or university. Unless they continued to attend Christian higher education venues, they were in for some severe culture shock.

That's HUGE! Great point. Living in a Christian bubble and not experiencing the secular society is going to leave a child very vulnerable when they finally "leave the nest" so to speak.

Mind if I share an experience of my own? I became a Christian in my first or second year of college, about 4 years ago I guess- I was so greatful to have been attending a secular state university. I had many Christian friends as well as non-Christian friends, and I never would have had that experience at a Christian college.

Home schooling began making inroads here just around the time my kids finished school. Right now, in my opinion, that would be the ideal way to educate your children. We have watched public schooling take a beating as standards in actual learning continue to slip; lack of discipline is rampant, teachers have no authority to be in control; and parents have no say over what their children are being taught. Secular humanism is rampant. Which should be no surprise.

I agree with you here- in some situations, where the parents are gifted teachers, homeschooling would be a good way to go- as long as the kids got to at least experience non-Christian groups and friends. Helps make them more well-rounded I think.

This is a decision each parent needs to make for their own family- not all parents are in the same circumstances. Our local public schools happened to be some of the best in the state, and the nearest Christian school (that wasn't Catholic) was about 25 miles away. I think my parents made the best decision in that case for my brother and I. Other parents' circumstances aren't so fortunate. The public schools may be in shambles, and the Christian schools might also be subpar. In that case, it would absolutely be wise to homeschool the kids if the parents were capable. What I'm against is the blanket "all public schools are crap" approach that some take.

The Christian school here in town is now partially funded by the province, which is a good thing, as tuition is lower. But, the school now cannot turn away any student because one or both of their parents are not Christians (as was one of the criteria when the school first started.......not one I necessarily agreed with.....that's why the kids had no clue about life outside the church/school walls). And, they are now seeing the same decay that is prevalent in the public schools. But that is only one school, here, where I live. The others elsewhere may be fine.

It doesn't work that way in America as far as I know- private schools cannot be governmentally funded. I could be wrong- not exactly sure on that one. Our private schools do have the option of accepting or turning away anyone they choose precisely because they do not accept governmental grants.

But, because I have no experience with home schooling in my own life, or my children's, and I only know a few, personally, who are home schooling their kids, I don't think I can give more than my opinion. I know that if and when I have grandchildren, I will encourage my children to look very carefully into that option.

That is a very wise approach in my opinion. Weigh all the options, then choose what's best for your kids.

As long as it is available, that is. Who knows when some do-gooder educator will decide that home schooling doesn't allow the children to be exposed to enough ideas other than the parents', especially "religious" ideas, and lobby to have home schooling disallowed. It could happen.

:nsm:

Let's hope not! Thanks so much Mossrose! This helped me a lot.

[Amazing Rando]

Today @ 01:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=331488#post331488)
Socrates:

Esther is right, the NEA is dominated by pro-abortion and pro-homosexual humanists, and that's one good reason to avoid the public schools. But there are a few Christians there, and AiG has had a stall at their conventions. The hostility was incredibly strong though -- see this report (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2003/0711nea.asp) and the links to previous years' reports at the bottom.

Hey Soc, do you think you could be a little more constructive? Labelling the NEA as a "leftist humanist" organization isn't really helping me much, and I'd rather not get dragged down into a mudslinging battle. John, RightIdea, Esther, and now Mossrose have all shared their experiences with me, and I'd be interested in some of yours rather than trading low blows with you. Do you have any personal experiences you could share? Were you homeschooled? How do/did you educate your kids? What's your story?

[mossrose]

I'm assuming you mean "there were no private schools" in your area, right?

:doh: Told you I was old. What was the question again? :huh:

Is it still there still religious education today in Candadian public schools?

No. In fact, by the time I was finished high school, those weekly pastoral visits were likely finished. The Gideons, a group of people who have placed Bibles in hotel rooms and hospital rooms, and send Bibles all over the world to people without, go into all the public schools once a year and give a NT to all grade 5 students who want them or who are allowed by their parents to take them. However, in the last couple of years, there have been complaints about that from parents, and so I imagine that practice will also be done away with.

Quite a change in two years! I remember doing something like that "trust fall" you describe- except I did it in Boy Scouts and in my church's youth group! It was a lot of fun, and pretty valuable if you ask me.

It had a certain value to it, I suppose, however, when that sort of thing, and also some situation ethics things were all that were being taught in a social studies class, when we were supposed to be learning about other countries and how our own country works, just didn't do it for me.

Why do you think your school changed so drastically so fast? Were there new teachers and administrators brought in?

The teachers weren't new, the administrators might have been. Remember, we were just coming out of the turbulent 60's, with all the radical change that went on in that decade. I guess there was a certain amount of new age thought and humanism that had been creeping into the system for several years, and the school system was just trying to keep up with the political correctness of it all. I just happened to be caught in those few transitional years.

That's excellent! Kudos to you for good parenting! I bet your kids turned out pretty well, eh? I think if you give your kids a solid enough foundation in the gospel, nothing can shake that from them.

Thank you, but most of the credit goes to God, for giving us the wisdom to teach them what they needed to survive. Both my husband and myself had a strong Christian influence in our homes growing up, and we had determined that our children would benefit from the same. And, we could see, even before our oldest started school, which way the wind was blowing. I must again give credit to some wonderful teachers who allowed my kids to express their beliefs without criticism.

I remember two particular instances. In either grade 9 or 10, (drat this memory of mine) the science course involved evolution in a huge way. My son asked us what he should do on the exam that he knew would have several essay type questions about the subject. We thought for a bit, and then told him that he should first answer all the questions as asked, and as the textbook and teacher had taught. Then, he would be free, as he felt, to give his own thoughts on the matter. As long as he had the textbook answer first, there wasn't much that could be done about the rest of his answer. He did so, and got good marks in that particular area.

The second example came from my son's English teacher in grades 11 and 12 (same teacher). He wrote many poems about God and what He had been doing in my son's life. Once they were to choose a poet and write articles about the life of the person, what influenced them, discuss some of the poems, etc. My son chose Fanny Crosby, who had written the words to many of our beloved hymns in the 19th century. Telling about her life, how her life affected her work, and actually having some of the words there was an excellent witness to the teacher. She not only allowed him to choose Crosby, but he got the best marks in English he ever had (it was not his strongest suit).

My daughter had some of the same teachers, and her experiences were similar.


Mind if I share an experience of my own? I became a Christian in my first or second year of college, about 4 years ago I guess- I was so greatful to have been attending a secular state university. I had many Christian friends as well as non-Christian friends, and I never would have had that experience at a Christian college.

That is true. And imagine if there had been no Christian kids at the college you attended, if all of them stayed cocooned at a Christian school. You would never have had the fellowship with them that you needed as a new believer.

It doesn't work that way in America as far as I know- private schools cannot be governmentally funded. I could be wrong- not exactly sure on that one. Our private schools do have the option of accepting or turning away anyone they choose precisely because they do not accept governmental grants

This is a relatively new situation. I have not heard of it happening very much. As I said, the Christian school here in my town is the only one I am aware of that is partially publicly funded. And, Alberta is vastly different from most of the other provinces. We are more conservative here, and the provincial government tries to hold on to some of the standards that we have had in the past. But they fight a sometimes losing battle with the teacher's union and the school boards themselves. But, still, there may be more public funding of Christian schools in the province than I am aware of.

[Socrates]

Today @ 12:49 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=332003#post332003)
Amazing Rando:

Hey Soc, do you think you could be a little more constructive? Labelling the NEA as a "leftist humanist" organization isn't really helping me much, and I'd rather not get dragged down into a mudslinging battle.

It is constructive actually, to tell the truth about the NEA, and both Esther and I have documented this. It is not helping you to believe that the NEA is all sweetness and light when there is proof of the heavily contrary influence.

[Amazing Rando]

Today @ 01:34 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=332495#post332495)
Socrates:

It is constructive actually, to tell the truth about the NEA, and both Esther and I have documented this. It is not helping you to believe that the NEA is all sweetness and light when there is proof of the heavily contrary influence.

Okay. I've noted your opinion on the matter. Could we move on? Can you tell me a bit about your own educational background and how you've chosen or will chose to educate your kids? That's what I'd really like to hear.

[Socrates]

Rando

I've explained in the thread why public school education is both wrong in principle and wrong in practice. The main problem is that Christian parents sending kids to public schools is like Israelites sending kids to Canaanite schools. Even if Christianity is not slammed overtly, it is slammed implicitly by implying that true wisdom and knowledge can be obtained without fear of tle LORD.

Supplementary arguments include the legalism that expelled a girl for having ibuprofen, the ridiculous look-and-guess way of teaching reading, kids emerging from schools who can't multiply 7 and 9 without a calculator and don't know what nouns and verbs are, the artificial age-segregated herds and gearing towards a mean, and the bullying.

I fully support home education or education in a truly Christian school. Since the Bible says that parents have the responsibility to educate their children, then any advocate of public schooling needs to find a VERY good reason. But all I can find are grave disadvantages.

~Soc.

[Tfbandie]

I went to a public high school, and I am extremely thankful for this. I was able to take courses in areas that neither of my parents could have taught, without first going back to college to retake for themselves. Because of these advanced courses i was able to enter a prestigious university with sophomore status in my first year as well as being a dual major in Math and Physics, which would not have been possible had I been home schooled, again to the high level of courses that I was able to take in a public high school.

But more so I was also able to fully develop as a person. I was able to make many friends of different religions and have in-depth enlightening discussions. This gave me the good experience of questioning and searching in my Christianity, which I continue to this day, and will always. I found this to be the case for a majority of my friends in the Christian fellowship I belong to on campus. Which brings to the most important part of all, when I chose to be a Christian, and when I choose everyday to continue, it was my choice. It was not something that was forced upon me, as the case would be in a Christian school or home school situation. I grew up in a Christian household but was also exposed to other ways of thinking as I grew up, which made my ongoing decision to Follow Christ a personal one, not an indoctrinated one.

As a refute to the notion that all Christian parents home school or send their kids to Christian schools besides the issue of indoctrination, I say, Who will witness to the kids in public schools or non-Christian private schools? By taking your students out of public school not only are you saying you don’t trust the Christian faith or your kids to follow it when presented with different ways of thinking, but you’re also saying children from non-Christian homes shouldn’t (or rather won’t) be given the chance to experience Christ-based living in their friends on a daily basis.

I believe I am a far better person, intellectual, and Christian for having gone to public school,

[spl_cadet]

Tf, our kids aren't our evangelizing instruments, and you do grave harm to their when you put them into a hostile environment when they are so immature, and have raging hormones.

[Tfbandie]

I found the environment nonhostile, and a great way to evangelise to a certain extent

[spl_cadet]

Try going to a California public school :shifty:

[Amazing Rando]

Okay okay. So you don't want to discuss your personal life, right. That's fine, I can respect that. I just wish you'd tell me so instead of ignoring it. Can you give me just a yes or no on this one though?- Were you homeschooled?

Today @ 04:39 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=332575#post332575)
Socrates:

I've explained in the thread why public school education is both wrong in principle and wrong in practice. The main problem is that Christian parents sending kids to public schools is like Israelites sending kids to Canaanite schools. Even if Christianity is not slammed overtly, it is slammed implicitly by implying that true wisdom and knowledge can be obtained without fear of tle LORD.

Soc- take a look at Daniel and his experience with the Babylonians. Daniel 1: 3-4 says: "3 Then the king ordered Ashpenaz, chief of his court officials, to bring in some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility- 4 young men without any physical defect, handsome, showing aptitude for every kind of learning, well informed, quick to understand, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the language and literature of the Babylonians."

In other words, Daniel got a state education from the enemy! That would have included learning Babylonian history, Babylonian customs, Babylonian mythology, agriculture, astronomy, and being brought up in the offical royal court. Daniel was very strong in his faith, however, and though he submitted willingly to their education, he refused to bow down to their gods, and defile himself with their court diet.

Now, don't you think Daniel came out pretty well, even despite being educated in Babylon in the ways of the "enemy?" Imagine if he had refused the opportunity- he never would have had the chance to witness to and impress the Babylonians with how his diet was better than the rich foods of Nebuchadnezzar's courts. He never would have gotten the opportunity to show God's great power and love for him in the lion's den to the Babylonians.

The same goes for Joseph in Genesis. He spent what? 13 years in the household of the Pharoah. Imagine if he had refused the education and opportunity his unique situation offered him- he never would have been able to interpret Pharoah's dreams, and rise to the high station he did. The massive famine would have ensued without any warning, and Egypt and Israel would not have prospered, but would have suffered terribly as a consequence.

What Daniel and Joseph had in common was that they stood firm on their faith, even while entirely immersed in a heathen culture. Their faith in God is what helped them through. I'd even go as far to argue that God put them in those circumstances to make a difference. Their faith prevented them from being corrupted by the ways of the world, even in the eye of the storm, as they were. They willingly (even gladly) accepted the opportunity to stand there as witnesses to the heathens- even becoming part of the culture themselves. And they didn't shirk the education they received either.

If you want to argue that they had no choice in the matter- they were forced or coerced into their situations, think about how for many people today, there are no other options besides public schooling- they are coerced into public schools because of their circumstances. Many many kids these days are unfortunately being brought up in single-parent households. This makes homeschooling entirely impossible for many, and living off of one, frequently low income, many single mothers cannot afford the expensive tuition of private or parochial schools. In many places, private Christian schools do not even exist!

Supplementary arguments include the legalism that expelled a girl for having ibuprofen, the ridiculous look-and-guess way of teaching reading, kids emerging from schools who can't multiply 7 and 9 without a calculator and don't know what nouns and verbs are, the artificial age-segregated herds and gearing towards a mean, and the bullying.

These are problems of course, and are signs that the public education system needs reform, not abandonment. Read this helpful link from Focus on the Family- not a "liberal" "leftist" or "humanist" organization by any stretch of the imagination! Rebuilding Hope for Public Schools (http://www.family.org/fofmag/pp/a0024028.cfm)

Not all public schools are in such dire straights either. I've mentioned that mine was pretty superior as far as academics go- 97% of my graduating class (of 905 students) went on the next year to a college education, and our standardized test scores were among the best in the nation. That is due primarily to the exellence of the teachers. As Mossrose and I agree on, if the public school in one's area is particularly strong, it is worthy of strong consideration, particularly when the alternatives are less viable. It should not be summarily dismissed out of hand simply because it is a public school.

I'm not arguing for the inherent superiority of public schools, because I know there are some grave deficiencies. What I'm suggesting is that public schools ought to remain a viable option to any Christian family, especially ones who feel that they would not be able to properly educate their children themselves.

I fully support home education or education in a truly Christian school. Since the Bible says that parents have the responsibility to educate their children, then any advocate of public schooling needs to find a VERY good reason. But all I can find are grave disadvantages.

~Soc.

I fully support home education for Christian families too- if the other alternatives are not satisfactory. If you'll notice, I haven't made one disparaging remark about homeschools or Christian education, because I recognize that for some families, they are the best choice for their kids. However for other Christian families, public schooling is the best option. Not every family has the fortunate circumstances yours may have, Socrates.
--------------------------------------------------

This was not the road I wished this thread to travel down- a debate on the merits of public schools. I know what public education can do because I've experienced it. I'm interested in the perspectives of homeschoolers and private Christian school kids. I want to hear their stories. John Reece, RightIdea, Esther, and Mossrose have been kind enough to share theirs with me, and to them, I'm very grateful. It's opened my eyes to the virtues of an educational paradigm I've never seen first-hand. I'd still like to get a few more, because they've been quite helpful to me. What I didn't want when I started this thread was to be dragged into a debate about the quality of public education, but alas Socrates, I guess you've forced my hand.

If you wish, Soc, you may respond to the points I've raised in this post. I promise you that I will read them, but I likely will not respond to them because as I've kept repeating- I don't want to do this anymore. What I'd like to hear from you is your educational experiences and how you've educated your kids. If you don't want to share that with me, that's your right, but that's really all I want out of this thread. I hope you understand. Thanks, and take care.

-Rob

[Socrates]

Today @ 03:44 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=332664#post332664)
Amazing Rando:

Okay okay. So you don't want to discuss your personal life, right. That's fine, I can respect that. I just wish you'd tell me so instead of ignoring it. Can you give me just a yes or no on this one though?- Were you homeschooled?

No. But I plan to. The homeschooled kids I've known have been bright, confident and non-bratty, and turned into well-adjusted young adults. If you want my own experiences, this is all I can offer.

[Daniel and Joseph]

If you want to argue that they had no choice in the matter-

That's a pretty important point though! I fail to see how it justifies sending your kids to an anti-Christian school system when there IS a choice.

... they were forced or coerced into their situations, think about how for many people today, there are no other options besides public schooling- they are coerced into public schools because of their circumstances. Many many kids these days are unfortunately being brought up in single-parent households. This makes homeschooling entirely impossible for many, and living off of one, frequently low income, many single mothers cannot afford the expensive tuition of private or parochial schools. In many places, private Christian schools do not even exist!

Well, OK. But let's admit that public schooling is not by choice but by necessity, and is a second or third best option. Let's not treat it as the norm and home education as the "alternative".

As Mossrose and I agree on, if the public school in one's area is particularly strong, it is worthy of strong consideration, particularly when the alternatives are less viable. It should not be summarily dismissed out of hand simply because it is a public school.

Yes it should be, for the reason I stated -- instead of building wisdom and knowledge on the fear of the LORD, they try to build them on autonomous human reasoning.

I'm not arguing for the inherent superiority of public schools, because I know there are some grave deficiencies. What I'm suggesting is that public schools ought to remain a viable option to any Christian family, especially ones who feel that they would not be able to properly educate their children themselves.

They need more confidence, rather than swallowing the educrat propaganda that it takes their own (secular) training to educate kids.

I fully support home education for Christian families too- if the other alternatives are not satisfactory.

See what I mean? This is not biblical. Rather, the alternatives should be a backup if the biblical norm of homeschooling is not feasible.

If you wish, Soc, you may respond to the points I've raised in this post. I promise you that I will read them, but I likely will not respond to them because as I've kept repeating- I don't want to do this anymore. What I'd like to hear from you is your educational experiences and how you've educated your kids. If you don't want to share that with me, that's your right, but that's really all I want out of this thread. I hope you understand. Thanks, and take care.

NP, but you did ask for alternatives, and I gave you them and many detailed reasons for preferring them.

[Sher]

12-07-2003 @ 01:57 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=329558#post329558)
RightIdea:

One important solution we need to impliment is vouchers. We must introduce competition into the education market. The present monopoly gives parents virtually no choices except to take what's handed to them, or go outside the market altogether. Once the educational system becomes accountable for the service it provides, it won't have any choice but to wake up and smell the coffee.

:argh: No disrespect, RI ... but this is NOT the solution. What the government subsidizes, the government regulates. Most home educators want to keep the government OUT of our schooling ... one of the main reasons we begin home educating in the first place.

[Shelley]

I had the privilege of teaching secondary education in both the public and private sectors. Ultimately, I think regardless of what educational road you choose, you're in for a trade off of some kind.

I'm the product of a public school education. Thankfullly, I was in the honors/AP track, so I received a very high-quality education. However, I can't say I think the quality of education in the regular public classroom is as good as it could/should be. Unfortunately, much of that is due to too much liberalization, too many overworked teachers, and too many overcrowded classrooms. I think any teacher worth his/her salt would agree you stand a better chance at a good education with as small a student/teacher ratio as possible. Still, public schools offer a great number of resources that private and home schools often can't; and I also believe the lessons one learns from interacting with people who have different ideals and worldviews is an important education unto itself.

Private schools- and I only have experience with religious schools- offer a smaller student/teacher ratio and, of course, the Christian worldview. However, resources are limited; for example, my private school didn't have a chemistry lab - they watched videos. Plus, the teachers on the secondary level generally have quite a few preparations they have to do (I had 5 at one time), and so something must fall to the wayside somewhere. Teachers also often have to double in another position - half of our secondary teachers were coaches. No real brain teaser to figure out what suffered as a consequence.

Home school is a coin toss. On the one hand, you can't beat the teacher/student ratio. If your child understands how to find a subject and verb, he/she can move on immediately; in any other school setting, he/she would have to sit through that lesson until virtually everyone else got it. That's wasted time, and I saw a LOT of wasted time while I was a teacher. Still, it matters not what a great ratio you have if half of that ratio hasn't got a clue as to how to teach or organize a lesson. I've met more than one home school parent who was, to put it mildly, a moron. As a consequence, their children were certainly not getting the kind of education they could've gotten elsewhere. Thankfully, issues regarding socialization aren't as serious as they were; our private school played home school teams in sports, and a local church had science fairs and band/orchestra for home school students.

So, I look at the choice of education as a decision a parent has to make in terms of what aspect of education they think is most important. They all have the pluses and negatives. For home school, though, I think the parent should definitely be honest with him/herself about his/her ability to teach before he/she goes that route.

[mossrose]

*OT Welcome to Tweb, Shelley! Thanks for your input here, and enjoy the boards! :welcome:

[Amazing Rando]

Yes, welcome Shelley, glad you could join us! Thank you for your great obervations as well!

Yesterday @ 08:59 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=333426#post333426)
Shelley:

I had the privilege of teaching secondary education in both the public and private sectors. Ultimately, I think regardless of what educational road you choose, you're in for a trade off of some kind.

That's what I've been trying to get at all along. Public education, Christian schools, and homeschools all have their plusses and minuses. It's up to parents to choose the best one for their kids, since there is no explicit biblical directive, and because situations often render one or more options impossible or inadvisable.

I'm the product of a public school education. Thankfullly, I was in the honors/AP track, so I received a very high-quality education. However, I can't say I think the quality of education in the regular public classroom is as good as it could/should be. Unfortunately, much of that is due to too much liberalization, too many overworked teachers, and too many overcrowded classrooms. I think any teacher worth his/her salt would agree you stand a better chance at a good education with as small a student/teacher ratio as possible. Still, public schools offer a great number of resources that private and home schools often can't; and I also believe the lessons one learns from interacting with people who have different ideals and worldviews is an important education unto itself.

As was I. I valued the level of the education I was getting, or at least I do now if I didn't then. That's a great point- student/teacher ratio is one important factor to consider. You offer a very balanced and reasonable assessment- thanks!

Private schools- and I only have experience with religious schools- offer a smaller student/teacher ratio and, of course, the Christian worldview. However, resources are limited; for example, my private school didn't have a chemistry lab - they watched videos. Plus, the teachers on the secondary level generally have quite a few preparations they have to do (I had 5 at one time), and so something must fall to the wayside somewhere. Teachers also often have to double in another position - half of our secondary teachers were coaches. No real brain teaser to figure out what suffered as a consequence.

A question about your experience teaching- which did you teach first- public school or Christian school? Did you find it a difficult adjustment switching? I'm talking mostly about the things you could and couldn't do or say to the students in public schools that were perfectly permissable in the Christian schools?

Home school is a coin toss. On the one hand, you can't beat the teacher/student ratio.

Another plus homeschool has is who the teacher is- if the teacher loves the student as a parent loves a child, the educational experience can be very positive.

If your child understands how to find a subject and verb, he/she can move on immediately; in any other school setting, he/she would have to sit through that lesson until virtually everyone else got it. That's wasted time, and I saw a LOT of wasted time while I was a teacher.

As a professional educator, what do you think of the Montessori-type of education? Montessori schools seem to promote the same kinds of "self-exploration" educational methods that it looks like you admire.

Still, it matters not what a great ratio you have if half of that ratio hasn't got a clue as to how to teach or organize a lesson. I've met more than one home school parent who was, to put it mildly, a moron. As a consequence, their children were certainly not getting the kind of education they could've gotten elsewhere.

Excellent point. :yes: Couldn't have said it any better myself.

Thankfully, issues regarding socialization aren't as serious as they were; our private school played home school teams in sports, and a local church had science fairs and band/orchestra for home school students.

That's pretty cool! At least they're recognizing one of homeschooling's disadvantages and are making efforts to make amends.

One valuable thing that is often missing out with a 1 on 1 student-teacher ratio is the collective learning experience shared by the students of Christian schools and public schools. There's just something enhancing about learning things together- you can talk with your peers about it, and the shared experiences form very strong bonds of friendship and love.

So, I look at the choice of education as a decision a parent has to make in terms of what aspect of education they think is most important. They all have the pluses and negatives. For home school, though, I think the parent should definitely be honest with him/herself about his/her ability to teach before he/she goes that route.

I'd say you and I are 100% on the same page! :highfive:

[Amazing Rando]

Yesterday @ 06:49 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=332720#post332720)
Sher:



:argh: No disrespect, RI ... but this is NOT the solution. What the government subsidizes, the government regulates. Most home educators want to keep the government OUT of our schooling ... one of the main reasons we begin home educating in the first place.

Hey Sher- I've got a question for you. You home school your own kids, right? Does this cost your familiy a significant amount of money as far as purchasing textbooks and curriculum material? About how much money are we talking here per kid? I'd imagine it's much much less than the cost of tuition at a private Christian schoo, but I'm curious to know.

[Amazing Rando]

Hi Esther, sorry I missed this one before, but I was rereading it and found it to be very cool!

12-08-2003 @ 05:42 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=330373#post330373)
Esther:

I think it's important to tell you that we're not spending every moment of every day choosing not to send our kids to public schools. We are choosing every day to homeschool. There is a big difference in focus there. We think about how happy we are doing the things we do, not how we aren't sending the kids to ps.

This is a good point I missed when you first posted this, and it answers my OP questions perfectly! You're actively teaching to teach your own kids as option number 1, not as "Plan B" due to the deficiencies of the public schools, right? Thanks, this helps me understand your reasoning a lot better.

I think there's a common misconception that we homeschoolers spend lots of time downing the ps system, that everything we say is somehow an inference about something bad about ps. Frankly I pity people who don't homeschool because I really enjoy it and think anyone who doesn't is missing out on a great thing. But I don't sit around dwelling on why I don't like ps.

You may not, but apparently there are some who do- those who have wanted to turn the thread to a negative discussion of public schooling instead of the positive discussion of the alternatives that I wanted.

OTOH, I think often of why I hs. We strongly suspect one of our sons has ADD. He also has a congenital defect in his back which causes him some pain. I am free to work with him in the way I deem most efficient to get concepts across, and if his back is bothering him, he can relax on the couch. And he doesn't have to worry about getting caught with ibuprofen. :nc:

Hehe. That's another homeschooling plus isn't it- cutting through the beaurocracy. Would you want to have your son diagnosed by a professional psychologist to see if he actually has ADD? This would probably take some of the guesswork out and help you decide the right course of action for your son.

[Shelley]

A question about your experience teaching- which did you teach first- public school or Christian school? Did you find it a difficult adjustment switching? I'm talking mostly about the things you could and couldn't do or say to the students in public schools that were perfectly permissable in the Christian schools?

I taught first in the public school system. As an English teacher (please don't judge my skills by what you read here - typos abound), I felt particularly restrained by the fact I couldn't mention Christianity. So much of British literature formed around the struggles within the Catholic church as they dealt first with pagan religions of early Celtic groups and then with the advent of Protestantism. It was much easier being in a Christian environment wherein I could delve into such topics with ease.

I will say, though, that I had more in-class disciplinary issues in the private setting than in the public one. The 'trouble makers' in the public schools were often in disciplinary facilities elsewhere; that wasn't the case with my private school, which didn't have the resources to do that. Plus, they were so set on the idea of 'turning the other cheek' that a student would basically have to set fire to someone before they'd dismiss them.


Another plus homeschool has is who the teacher is- if the teacher loves the student as a parent loves a child, the educational experience can be very positive.

I'd say this is a plus in the private school system as well. I had the same students repeatedly in secondary; I watched them grow up from 7th graders to seniors and so felt a bit parental toward them. Of course, the downside is if you don't like a student and they don't like you, repeatedly having to teach them is a headache.



As a professional educator, what do you think of the Montessori-type of education? Montessori schools seem to promote the same kinds of "self-exploration" educational methods that it looks like you admire.

I'm very into structured lessons, and I do feel a person learns something by watching someone else go through the process of learning something as well. The wasted time I feel frustration with is the constant repeating of information even if a student clearly understands it.

Let me give you this example. My private school's English department used the ABeka curriculum. This curriculum is quite good except they over-stress grammar. I taught students the exact same grammar from 7th grade up. We didn't have honors courses until I became department head and explained the need for it; so, honors level students - who more than understood the grammar and easily aced test after test - were wasting their time year after year getting the exact same lessons.

Public school wasn't much better in this regard. The regular classroom curriculum had to be 'dumbed down' to accommodate students with learning disabilities, and that meant the students who got the information the first time were subjected to hearing it over and over again instead of moving on.

Still, I'm no big proponent of just allowing a student to explore their own learning. I just think a lesson tailored to meet the learning needs of the individual is a better way to go. There is so much that can be learned that I feel it's such a waste of a decent mind to keep rehashing the exact same lesson year after year.


One valuable thing that is often missing out with a 1 on 1 student-teacher ratio is the collective learning experience shared by the students of Christian schools and public schools. There's just something enhancing about learning things together- you can talk with your peers about it, and the shared experiences form very strong bonds of friendship and love.

Yes, I agree with you here. One of the greatest lessons to be gained in such an experience is that of patience and understanding others' limitations.

[bar Jonah]

Sher, who said anything about vouchers for home schooling? I was speaking only in regard to private schools.

Sorry for not making that clear. :ri:

[Sher]

Yesterday @ 11:07 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=334267#post334267)
RightIdea:

Sher, who said anything about vouchers for home schooling? I was speaking only in regard to private schools.

Sorry for not making that clear. :ri:

:thumb: No problem :smile:

[Sher]

Yesterday @ 09:17 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=334142#post334142)
Amazing Rando:

Hey Sher- I've got a question for you. You home school your own kids, right? Does this cost your familiy a significant amount of money as far as purchasing textbooks and curriculum material? About how much money are we talking here per kid? I'd imagine it's much much less than the cost of tuition at a private Christian schoo, but I'm curious to know.

Hey Rando,

Yes, I home educate my one son. The cost per year differs depending on the subjects covered, and the amount of effort and time I have to spare to save costs. Since I am working full time now, I will have far less time to research things on the internet, download programs, and create my own lessons. Therefore, I will have to rely more on textbooks and prepared curriculum. But, yeah, it is much cheaper than private schools ... but it is all up to the learning style of, and the parental interaction with, the student. Some students need a group to interact with to learn, and therefore, a home education program may not be the best choice for that child. However, the nice thing about home education is that you can make it fit the child. My son is more kinetic, so I try to find things that allow him hands-on learning. If I lecture, he turns a deaf ear, and barely anything gets through.

It can be expensive. However, if you add up the costs spent throughout the year at public school, and the sometimes very inferior education that a child receives (depending on area and teachers), it is worth it. Another tip is to spread out your subjects. If you have limited funds, don't try to buy all the books at the beginning of the year. Teach history for half a year, twice as fast, then switch to a semester of another subject (health? biology?). This way, you don't have to purchase the second semester books until nearer the middle of the year.

HTH
~Sher

[Amazing Rando]

Yesterday @ 02:39 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=334181#post334181)
Shelley:

I taught first in the public school system. As an English teacher (please don't judge my skills by what you read here - typos abound), I felt particularly restrained by the fact I couldn't mention Christianity. So much of British literature formed around the struggles within the Catholic church as they dealt first with pagan religions of early Celtic groups and then with the advent of Protestantism. It was much easier being in a Christian environment wherein I could delve into such topics with ease.

Are you British, Shelley? This is nice having people from around the globe participating in this. In this thread, we've had USA, Australia, Canada, and now Great Britain represented! God save the Queen!

I can see how this would feel restricting! You're just bubbling over with the good news of Jesus and want to share it, and yet you have to tiptoe around the issue. I guess it's like that in most, if not all public workplaces where Christians work side by side with non Christians.

I will say, though, that I had more in-class disciplinary issues in the private setting than in the public one. The 'trouble makers' in the public schools were often in disciplinary facilities elsewhere; that wasn't the case with my private school, which didn't have the resources to do that. Plus, they were so set on the idea of 'turning the other cheek' that a student would basically have to set fire to someone before they'd dismiss them.

Seems those Christian schools you taught in forgot the "Spare the rod and spoil the child" proverb, eh? With a class full of kids acting up, I'd imagine education gets a bit tricky! My Dad shared a lot of his teaching experience with me- he had some angelic classes, and some classes that were completely out of control.

Another plus homeschool has is who the teacher is- if the teacher loves the student as a parent loves a child, the educational experience can be very positive.

I'd say this is a plus in the private school system as well. I had the same students repeatedly in secondary; I watched them grow up from 7th graders to seniors and so felt a bit parental toward them. Of course, the downside is if you don't like a student and they don't like you, repeatedly having to teach them is a headache.

Hehe. My Mom has also shared her experiences with me as an elementary guidance councilor in the public schools. She also gets to see the kids grow and learn from kindergarten until 5th grade, and she grows very attatched to them as well! Even during the years she taught grade level classes- 2nd grade to be specific, she told me she felt very motherly toward her class of 25 little ones, and was very sorry each year when June came around to see them go.

I guess that this is something that varies from teacher to teacher, regardless of if they teach in public or private schools. Some teachers will grow very close to their students and "love" them as much as is allowed by school policy! I experienced quite a few of these loving teachers even in my PS education (these are the ones I can most clearly identify as being Christians). By that same token, there are certainly teachers that stay aloof and do not get personally involved with their students' lives. Unfortunately, some don't even care a lick about their students. I'd bet that this is true in public and Christian schools.

I'm very into structured lessons, and I do feel a person learns something by watching someone else go through the process of learning something as well. The wasted time I feel frustration with is the constant repeating of information even if a student clearly understands it.

Let me give you this example. My private school's English department used the ABeka curriculum. This curriculum is quite good except they over-stress grammar. I taught students the exact same grammar from 7th grade up. We didn't have honors courses until I became department head and explained the need for it; so, honors level students - who more than understood the grammar and easily aced test after test - were wasting their time year after year getting the exact same lessons.

Good for you for enacting change at the school! I benefitted quite a bit from my honors track courses.

Public school wasn't much better in this regard. The regular classroom curriculum had to be 'dumbed down' to accommodate students with learning disabilities, and that meant the students who got the information the first time were subjected to hearing it over and over again instead of moving on.

Always a concern for sure. I'm glad that most schools trhoughout the nation have recognized the need to avoid the "one size fits all" approach to education. he high school I attended had either 3 or 4 different levels for each subject- English, Math, Science, Social Studies, Foreign Languages, Music, Art, etc. We were allowed to enroll in whatever level class we wanted, so those uf us who were weaker in math, yet very strong writers could take Honors/AP English, and a midlevel math course, for example.

You taught at the secondary level, correct? Was this the case in your public school?

Still, I'm no big proponent of just allowing a student to explore their own learning. I just think a lesson tailored to meet the learning needs of the individual is a better way to go. There is so much that can be learned that I feel it's such a waste of a decent mind to keep rehashing the exact same lesson year after year.

Agreed. Maximizing individual attention is the best way to go whenever possible.

One valuable thing that is often missing out with a 1 on 1 student-teacher ratio is the collective learning experience shared by the students of Christian schools and public schools. There's just something enhancing about learning things together- you can talk with your peers about it, and the shared experiences form very strong bonds of friendship and love.

Yes, I agree with you here. One of the greatest lessons to be gained in such an experience is that of patience and understanding others' limitations.

:cheers: :highfive:

[Amazing Rando]

Today @ 06:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=334540#post334540)
Sher:

Hey Rando,

Yes, I home educate my one son. The cost per year differs depending on the subjects covered, and the amount of effort and time I have to spare to save costs. Since I am working full time now, I will have far less time to research things on the internet, download programs, and create my own lessons. Therefore, I will have to rely more on textbooks and prepared curriculum. But, yeah, it is much cheaper than private schools ... but it is all up to the learning style of, and the parental interaction with, the student. Some students need a group to interact with to learn, and therefore, a home education program may not be the best choice for that child. However, the nice thing about home education is that you can make it fit the child. My son is more kinetic, so I try to find things that allow him hands-on learning. If I lecture, he turns a deaf ear, and barely anything gets through.

Wow, good on you for working full time and still having time to teach your son! How old is he? Do you work in the daytime and trust that he's studying and working in the time that you're at work?

It can be expensive. However, if you add up the costs spent throughout the year at public school, and the sometimes very inferior education that a child receives (depending on area and teachers), it is worth it. Another tip is to spread out your subjects. If you have limited funds, don't try to buy all the books at the beginning of the year. Teach history for half a year, twice as fast, then switch to a semester of another subject (health? biology?). This way, you don't have to purchase the second semester books until nearer the middle of the year.

HTH
~Sher

I bet you could also utilize books at the local public library for help in minimizing costs, right?

May I ask you a few questions about your son and his own educational opportunities?

I guess what I'm curious about is- does your son get the opportunity, either through your church, or with friends, to participate in music, sports, and other "extracurricular" activities? What are some of his biggest interests- both hobbies and in academic subject matter?

I hope you don't mind me asking all these things- I'd just like to better understand how homeschooling works.

[Shelley]

[QUOTE]12-12-2003 @ 03:36 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=334965#post334965)
Amazing Rando:

Sorry in advance if this reply looks odd. I'm still trying to get the feel of these particular boards!

"Are you British, Shelley? This is nice having people from around the globe participating in this. In this thread, we've had USA, Australia, Canada, and now Great Britain represented! God save the Queen!"

Haha! Nope, I'm not British. I'm Texan through and through - generations back, in fact. No, British Lit. is just standard in most curricula. It usually goes this way in secondary education: 9th grade is an introduction to literature; 10th grade is world literature; 11th grade is American literature; and 12th grade is British literature. I don't mind being mistaken for being British, though. I love their writers!

"I can see how this would feel restricting! You're just bubbling over with the good news of Jesus and want to share it, and yet you have to tiptoe around the issue. I guess it's like that in most, if not all public workplaces where Christians work side by side with non Christians. "

Yes, it was pretty frustrating. It was more so because the inability to discuss the aspects of how religious issues impacted the literature stifled me as much as a teacher as it did as a Christian.


"Seems those Christian schools you taught in forgot the "Spare the rod and spoil the child" proverb, eh? With a class full of kids acting up, I'd imagine education gets a bit tricky! My Dad shared a lot of his teaching experience with me- he had some angelic classes, and some classes that were completely out of control. "

Yes, it seems some classes just aren't a good mix of students. Our school would also let in students they knew weren't Christian in the hopes of converting them; I thought that was very wrong - a Christian school should be just that: Christian. Those parents were putting their kids there, in part, in the hopes they were surrounded by classmates of similar belief systems.


"Always a concern for sure. I'm glad that most schools trhoughout the nation have recognized the need to avoid the "one size fits all" approach to education. he high school I attended had either 3 or 4 different levels for each subject- English, Math, Science, Social Studies, Foreign Languages, Music, Art, etc. We were allowed to enroll in whatever level class we wanted, so those uf us who were weaker in math, yet very strong writers could take Honors/AP English, and a midlevel math course, for example.

You taught at the secondary level, correct? Was this the case in your public school?"

The public schools here in Texas have honors/AP tracks as well as basic courses, but the majority of students get dumped into the regular track system. That means students with mild to moderate learning issues are in the same classes as those who have no learning issues at all.

The administrations are often of no help. I remember being told I could fail a student if I wanted, but the administrator's would simply change the grade to a passing one in the end. And this was in a very sound district!

[Esther]

Amazing Rando:

This is a good point I missed when you first posted this, and it answers my OP questions perfectly! You're actively teaching to teach your own kids as option number 1, not as "Plan B" due to the deficiencies of the public schools, right? Thanks, this helps me understand your reasoning a lot better.

Yes, that's right. There are definitely deficiencies in our district but even if ours were the best p.s. in the country, I wouldn't send them.

You may not, but apparently there are some who do- those who have wanted to turn the thread to a negative discussion of public schooling instead of the positive discussion of the alternatives that I wanted.

Unfortunately the negatives are hard to avoid and living a homeschooling lifestyle I am having to defend myself against negative perceptions of homeschooling all the time. It then becomes necessary for me to contrast hs with whatever they're referring to, usually ps.

Hehe. That's another homeschooling plus isn't it- cutting through the beaurocracy. Would you want to have your son diagnosed by a professional psychologist to see if he actually has ADD? This would probably take some of the guesswork out and help you decide the right course of action for your son.

Yes, I will eventually take my son for testing once the insurance changes are effective.