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Christian3
06-08-2017, 04:43 PM
According to Jehovah's Witnesses John 1 should read:

“In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (John 1:1)

Are they right? Are they wrong? Please explain.

Thank you.

Meh Gerbil
06-08-2017, 05:58 PM
The Jehovah's Witness translation of the Bible is one of the worst in existence.
For a summary see: http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/New_World_Translation/new_world_translation.htm

No actual scholars take it seriously - including non-believing scholars.

Christian3
06-08-2017, 06:46 PM
The Jehovah's Witness translation of the Bible is one of the worst in existence.
For a summary see: http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/New_World_Translation/new_world_translation.htm

No actual scholars take it seriously - including non-believing scholars.

Thank you. Every so many weeks a Johovah's Witness shows up at my door with a pamphlet of information. I usually thank them and they leave, but the last time they arrived I spoke to them and asked a few questions. From that conversation, I knew something was wrong with their theology and interpretation of Scriptures.

So, I told the lady that the next time she showed up at my door I would have something in writing for her to read.

I read the pamphlet -- what a mess!

I'm putting it all together now.

Thanks for your help.

Meh Gerbil
06-08-2017, 06:54 PM
Thank you. Every so many weeks a Johovah's Witness shows up at my door with a pamphlet of information. I usually thank them and they leave, but the last time they arrived I spoke to them and asked a few questions. From that conversation, I knew something was wrong with their theology and interpretation of Scriptures.

So, I told the lady that the next time she showed up at my door I would have something in writing for her to read.

I read the pamphlet -- what a mess!

I'm putting it all together now.

Thanks for your help.
You may want to research common rebuttals to the information you're going to provide.
I don't know what they are, but I imagine they get hit with this tactic from time to time.

Bill the Cat
06-08-2017, 07:04 PM
Ed Dalcour has a good article on it too. http://www.christiandefense.org/jw_nwt.htm

37818
06-08-2017, 07:20 PM
This video was recommend to me by friend and ex-Jehovah's Witness


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OeLt_884iA

Christian3
06-08-2017, 10:12 PM
Ed Dalcour has a good article on it too. http://www.christiandefense.org/jw_nwt.htm

First glance -- great resource.

Sparko
06-09-2017, 12:05 PM
This video was recommend to me by friend and ex-Jehovah's Witness


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OeLt_884iA

great video.

Sparko
06-09-2017, 12:21 PM
Here is what you ask the JW's.


How many True Gods are there? (The bible teaches there is only one TRUE God and any other God is a false god)

If Jesus is "A" god, is he a True God or a False God?

If he is a True God, and there is only one True God, then he must be the same God as Jehovah.

If he is a false god, then we should not follow him or his teachings.

One rejoinder that they will use is that Moses is called god in the OT. But he was not. He was said to be "as God"


Exodus 4:16 “Moreover, he shall speak for you to the people; and he will be as a mouth for you and you will be as God to him.
Exodus 7:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

Meaning moses was not "a god" but represented God to the Aaron and Pharaoh. It is figurative. If John 1:1 is translated correctly in their bible, then it is saying Jesus is LITERALLY a god.



---

As far as the translation goes, it is incorrect. Here are a few links for more detailed information:

https://www.jashow.org/articles/guests-and-authors/dr-john-ankerberg/jehovahs-witnesses-and-john-11/
https://carm.org/john-1-1-word-was-god

https://carm.org/john-1-1-word-was-god

tabibito
06-09-2017, 12:58 PM
Let's hope they don't cotton onto Jesus' comment "you are gods, and the scripture cannot be broken."

Sparko
06-09-2017, 01:26 PM
Let's hope they don't cotton onto Jesus' comment "you are gods, and the scripture cannot be broken."

easily handled. In psalm 82, which Jesus is quoting (I believe sarcastically) the verse make it clear that "elohim" (gods) refers to judges and leaders and they are indeed "false gods" because the psalm goes on to say "you will die like men" - God was chastising the leaders saying that while they were like gods, they would die regardless because of their failures to do right.

Here is the JW (NWT) translation of Psalm 82

God takes his place in the divine assembly;*+ In the middle of the gods* he judges:+ 2 “How long will you continue to judge with injustice+ And show partiality to the wicked?+ (Selah) 3 Defend* the lowly and the fatherless.+ Render justice to the helpless and destitute.+ 4 Rescue the lowly and the poor; Save them out of the hand of the wicked.” 5 They do not know, nor do they understand;+ They are walking about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are being shaken.+ 6 “I have said, ‘You are gods,*+ All of you are sons of the Most High. 7 But you will die just as men do;+ And like any other prince you will fall!’”


I don't think they would want to associate Jesus with these guys.

tabibito
06-09-2017, 02:28 PM
In pursuit of the aim to show the Christ is not God, I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Sparko
06-09-2017, 02:32 PM
In pursuit of the aim to show the Christ is not God, I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

They actually think that Jesus is the incarnation of the Archangel Michael.

tabibito
06-09-2017, 02:33 PM
Heh? They don't know that Michael is the Holy Spirit?

Sparko
06-09-2017, 02:42 PM
Heh? They don't know that Michael is the Holy Spirit?

er, what? :twitch:

tabibito
06-09-2017, 02:54 PM
:rofl:

Jedidiah
06-10-2017, 02:39 AM
:rofl:

He bit.

QuantaFille
06-10-2017, 02:55 AM
So, I told the lady that the next time she showed up at my door I would have something in writing for her to read.

From my experience with them, they probably won't read it. I think they are "encouraged" not to read anything contrary to their beliefs, the same way Mormons are. It's better to memorize the key points and any Bible references in your materials, and bring it up in conversation.

Christian3
06-11-2017, 11:46 AM
From my experience with them, they probably won't read it. I think they are "encouraged" not to read anything contrary to their beliefs, the same way Mormons are. It's better to memorize the key points and any Bible references in your materials, and bring it up in conversation.

You are probably right, but at least I will have done my part and maybe they will think I am a lost cause and stop dropping by.

tabibito
06-11-2017, 11:53 AM
If all else fails, make an appointment to meet them at say 2:00 pm Saturday, then make sure you get some Mormons to drop by at the same time. I haven't seen either at my place in the more than thirty years since I did it.

hedrick
06-11-2017, 03:23 PM
It's certainly not "a god," but translating simply "God" is also misleading unless the reader is taking it in the context of the doctrine of the Trinity. While this implies a philosophical framework that could be misleading, something like "of the same nature as God" is probably what was meant. The obvious translation is "divine," but that has lots of possible misunderstandings. NEB says "What God was, the Word was."

The problem is that the previous phrase also speaks of the Word is distinct from God. This combination of distinction and unity is what caused the discussions leading up to the Trinity.

tabibito
06-11-2017, 04:26 PM
Sorry Hedrick, but a pagan speaker of Koine Greek could just as readily have said "theos en o ares" and it would be wholly valid to translate it as "Ares was (had continuing existence as) a god." "Divine" would be θειος - not used John 1:1, the word there is θεος: god. So -
John 1:1 ambiguous:
John 1:3 "all came to be through him, and apart from him not even one thing came to be" still ambiguous - theoretically, "him" could be either the Word or God.
10 "the world came to be through him," unambiguous - and disambiguates the prior verses: the Word, not God, created all. (grammatically)
Then Philippians 2:5-6: "Jesus Christ who being (subsisting as) God in form,"
Phil 2:6 "considered existence as God not booty (a treasure to which one has lawful right)": identity as God declared
John 1:14 - the Word made flesh
And of course Hebrews 1, which spends a lot of time explaining that the Son is God - directly declaring him "o theos," in verse 8.
10 declares that he laid the foundations of the Earth and that the heavens are the work of his hands.
2:5 the world to come is not subjected to angels - 8 but everything is subjected to him
2:9 shows him being made for a time lower than the angels,

All up - the ambiguity of John 1:1 is thoroughly, and through a number of iterations, disambiguated.

Bibleuser
12-12-2017, 11:23 AM
The Word "God" is a relative term is Scripture.
Sometime in The Bible it refers to Almighty God, Pagan god(s), humans, and angels.
Divine beings from a Biblical view, thus God's view.
So as the can only be one Almighty God and as John 1 refers to two persons then one must be the lesser and one the greater, "God" and "a god."
BU