Muslims why are you murdering christians????? [Archive]

mossrose

February 13th 2012, 11:36 AM

So Christian countries didn't invade Iraq????

I certainly don't consider the countries that invaded Iraq to be "Christian" countries. Not everyone who calls themselves "Christian" is so, in fact. Especially within a military group that goes into battle, certainly not every person in that group is a believer. And Iraq was not "invaded" because of religious ideology, so this example falls down right there.

However, every time a Christian is murdered by a Muslim or Muslim group, you can bet that every single Muslim on his own or in that group is in fact a Muslim bent on destroying what he perceives is an enemy to his religion.

And if that is all you can come up with to show that Christians killing Muslims is continuing, then you have pretty small evidence.

And I notice that you have qualified when saying "these days". So it's ok to forget about the past is it?

I used the qualifier because you said that Christians killing Muslims is continuing, which is present tense. Evidence for murder of Christians by Muslims TODAY is overwhelming. Not so much the other way. I don't know of any group of followers of Christ who have murdered Muslims in the past or nowadays.

If by the past, you are referring to the Crusades, which is usually what all anti-Christians use as evidence that believers are all murdering thugs, then I stand on what I said previously in this post. Not all who say they are believers are, in fact, followers of Jesus Christ. So-called "Christian" countries have indeed performed terrible atrocities in the past, but the leaders and armies were not made up of those that had a personal relationship with Christ.

When you think of a "Christian country", the odds of the majority of people in that country actually having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ are mighty slim. That has been true in the past and is true now. When you think of a "Muslim country", the odds are that the majority of the people saying they believe in the Koran and Mohammed actually do, and their hatred of Jews and Christians is inbred within them and colours all they do.

If you have more evidence of Christians (true, real believers in and followers of Jesus Christ) killing Muslims in the present time, I would like to see news reports or other documentation.

:smile:

mossrose

February 13th 2012, 11:59 AM

Do you think that Christians would react just as much as the Muslims, if a Muslim publicly burnt the Bible, especially if it got the same media attention as when there was a threat to burn the Koran?.............Last year I think or was it in 2010! Sorry, not sure.

I would like to respond to your question to Cow Poke, if you don't mind.

Believers do, indeed, love the Bible as God's Word. However, speaking personally, I would never in my life do anything to anyone who burned or otherwise "desecrated" a Bible. The book itself is not "holy", and it is no insult a believer if a Bible is burned or urinated on or spat upon. God's Word is in my heart, and that can't be taken away from me.

I would like to point out that Muslims have and continue to burn and "desecrate" God's Word. Here is some evidence for that:

http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2010/09/muslims_burn_bibles_routinely_and_often.html

Do you, dear reader, recall reading any of the following headlines:

# 2005: Saudi Arabia Desecrates Hundreds of Bibles Annually

# 2006: Muslim Students Urinate, Spit On Then Burn Bible

# 2007: Christians in Gaza Fear for Their Lives as Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy Crosses

# 2008: Muslims burn Bible in Pakistan

The truth is, it happens every day somewhere in the world. Do you know why we don't hear of it here? Two reasons:

1. The Liberal Media does not like reporting anything critical of Islam (recall the cowardice of our newspapers in not publishing the Danish Cartoons)

2. If our newspapers had to print barbaric acts committed by Muslims on a daily basis there would be no room to print the local news.

Easy scroogle search. Please do read the rest of the article, and here is one more link that you might find interesting. There are a lot of links about this subject. I haven't heard much of this by the mainstream media, have you?

http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE6940HY20101005

Cow Poke

February 13th 2012, 12:04 PM

It seems like Muslims have a real "we can do anything to you infidels, incuding chop off your heads" and it's "free expression", but if you even DRAW A CARTOON we don't like, we're going to kill you!

Absolutely moronic and barbaric. When will Muslim Mainstreet overwhelmingly declare this unacceptable?

Cybelle Hawke

February 13th 2012, 01:45 PM

Throughout history, Muslims have killed Christians and Christians have killed Muslims. It continues and I guess will always continue. Yet both have the God of Abraham as their God. Doesn't make too much sense does it!

Cheers
Onceametho

Throughout history, it is the things that we have NOT in common that make people kill one another.

Yet this thread is not about the history of killing between the faithful to one religion and the other; this thread is about the appearing of faint contours of a genocide against christians in the Islam hemisphere.....

There seems to be tendancy going on in the muslim world, from Egypt to Indonesia and from Turkey to Arabia, that it is perfectly normal to openly mistreat, discriminate, assault and bully christian congregations and individuals in society. Authorities do not take action and do not provide extra protection. And on top of all that, there are the murders, that remain unpunished.

The christians who are attacked are not immigrants or tourists. These christians are inborn citizens and have been living in muslim countries for many decades (if not centuries) and although they live totally separate lives, christians have always enjoyed tolerance and respect.

But since the Arabian spring, things have drastically changed. While fighting for their freedom against established governments, muslims attack, assault and kill christians on the way. Churches are burnt, people are lynched....

So apart from the history between muslims and christians, one question seems very legit to me: why are muslims killing christians NOW - christians who have been living in those countries for decades?

In other words, what has changed in the muslim faith - which claims to be peaceful - that all of a sudden, christians all over the muslim hemisphere, who are doing nothing but minding their own business, are being threatened and mistreated and have to fear for their properties, health and lives?

mossrose

February 13th 2012, 04:05 PM

One Bad Pig

February 13th 2012, 06:45 PM

If by the past, you are referring to the Crusades, which is usually what all anti-Christians use as evidence that believers are all murdering thugs, then I stand on what I said previously in this post. Not all who say they are believers are, in fact, followers of Jesus Christ. So-called "Christian" countries have indeed performed terrible atrocities in the past, but the leaders and armies were not made up of those that had a personal relationship with Christ.
Although IMO the Crusades were a bad idea, many people who joined them to fight did so out of devotion to Christ.

When you think of a "Christian country", the odds of the majority of people in that country actually having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ are mighty slim. That has been true in the past and is true now. When you think of a "Muslim country", the odds are that the majority of the people saying they believe in the Koran and Mohammed actually do, and their hatred of Jews and Christians is inbred within them and colours all they do.
IMO you're applying a double standard here. Why would "true Christians" be a significantly smaller percentage than "true Muslims"?

mossrose

February 13th 2012, 07:01 PM

Although IMO the Crusades were a bad idea, many people who joined them to fight did so out of devotion to Christ.

Do you think that was the case with all who went, or even the majority?

IMO you're applying a double standard here. Why would "true Christians" be a significantly smaller percentage than "true Muslims"?

There is no double standard, OB One. Statistically, in a so-called "Christian nation", the majority of those who call themselves Christian are not actual followers of Christ. They may believe in whatever they think God is, or they may call themselves such because of tradition or the way the nation was originally formed, but you cannot tell me that in Western Europe or North America the majority of people have personal relationships with Christ.

Cybelle Hawke

February 13th 2012, 07:10 PM

Cybelle, would you mind much if we moved this thread to some other forum where onceameth can post without being moderated?

Both CP and I posted here in response to him and forgot that he was not allowed to post here.

:flowers:

I have no problem with that at all Mossy, as long as muslims will be allowed to post on the new location as well, as it is their reaction and position that I am eager to learn and discuss.

mossrose

February 13th 2012, 07:16 PM

I have no problem with that at all Mossy, as long as muslims will be allowed to post on the new location as well, as it is their reaction and position that I am eager to learn and discuss.

Thanks, sweetie. We'll move it to an area where anybody can post, I think.

One Bad Pig

February 13th 2012, 09:33 PM

Do you think that was the case with all who went, or even the majority?
All who went? That's highly unlikely. It's also highly unlikely that none went out of devotion to Christ, as your post implies. I wouldn't venture to guess whether or not the majority were devoted Christians. Thankfully, that's not my call - it's God's.

There is no double standard, OB One.
There is a double standard in your post, Mossy - one for the Christians, and one for the Muslims.

Statistically, in a so-called "Christian nation", the majority of those who call themselves Christian are not actual followers of Christ. They may believe in whatever they think God is, or they may call themselves such because of tradition or the way the nation was originally formed, but you cannot tell me that in Western Europe or North America the majority of people have personal relationships with Christ.
Due to the increasing numbers in Western Europe/North America who do not identify as Christian, there is a difference between a majority of the population and a majority of those who call themselves Christians. And, statistically, there's no way you can know who is and who is not an actual follower of Christ despite their profession of Christianity. Only God knows. There are certainly many who could stand to have a deeper relationship with Christ, but that goes for everyone, I think.

Sparko

February 14th 2012, 11:01 AM

Moving to Civics

seanD

February 14th 2012, 12:46 PM

In the US, Muslims have an almost preferential status as a protected class -- very UN-PC to be mean to a Muslim.:

It's not so much PC, because Muslims are always the target when officials want to pass legislation that tramples our Constitution. But they are funded and do have a protected status internationally because Muslim terrorists become useful for the US government when they want to fight proxy wars and take down regimes, such as in Pakistan (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3340165/ns/world_news-brave_new_world/t/airlift-evil/), Russia in Afghanistan, Serbs (who are Christian) in Kosovo, Gaddafi's regime and now Assad in Syria. We might want to pray for the Christian population in Syria, because if the US has it's way and topples his regime using al-Qaeda, then there's undoubtedly going to be another ethnic cleansing bloodbath similar to what went on in Libya, only it won't be black Africans, but Christians.

Cow Poke

February 14th 2012, 12:52 PM

It's not so much PC,

Yeah, I think it is. Our local schools have set up "prayer rooms" for Muslims IN THE SCHOOLS and are encouraging all students to "check into" the cultural aspects Islam, including allowing days off for Ramadan. This, while denying access to equivalent Christian prayer rooms. Where did they get this? The local administrator says TEA, which got it from NEA. It's very PC to learn about Muslims. :yes:

because Muslims are always the target when officials want to pass legislation that tramples our Constitution.

meh

But they are funded and do have a protected status internationally because Muslim terrorists become useful for the US government when they want to fight proxy wars and take down regimes, such as in Pakistan (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3340165/ns/world_news-brave_new_world/t/airlift-evil/), Russia in Afghanistan, Serbs (who are Christian) in Kosovo, Gaddafi's regime and now Assad in Syria. We might want to pray for the Christian population in Syria, because if the US has it's way and topples his regime using al-Qaeda, then there's undoubtedly going to be another ethnic cleansing bloodbath similar to what went on in Libya, only it won't be black Africans, but Christians.

On this, I agree --- our enemy's enemy is our friend, and we equip them when it serves our purposes, then have to fight them when it doesn't, including putting our soldiers in harms way of technology and training that WE GAVE the enemy.

seanD

February 14th 2012, 01:05 PM

Yeah, I think it is. Our local schools have set up "prayer rooms" for Muslims IN THE SCHOOLS and are encouraging all students to "check into" the cultural aspects Islam, including allowing days off for Ramadan. This, while denying access to equivalent Christian prayer rooms. Where did they get this? The local administrator says TEA, which got it from NEA. It's very PC to learn about Muslims. :yes:

meh

On this, I agree --- our enemy's enemy is our friend, and we equip them when it serves our purposes, then have to fight them when it doesn't, including putting our soldiers in harms way of technology and training that WE GAVE the enemy.

I'm guessing the overindulgence of Muslims in some places has to do with the fact that the issue has become sensitive after 911. You have the two extremes; those who go out of their not to get carried away with hatred against Muslims and those who do exaggerate the hatred. Fact of the matter is, in spite of the fact that Muslims might be given special privileges in some places because of this issue, I still wouldn't want to be a Muslim living anywhere in US after 911, especially, as I mentioned before, when legislation still plays the Muslim fearmongering card and fans those flames when it's convenient for them..

Cow Poke

February 14th 2012, 01:14 PM

I'm guessing the overindulgence of Muslims in some places has to do with the fact that the issue has become sensitive after 911.

Actually, this goes back to pre-911... and now that you mention it, I'll have to check to see if this is still the case in my area -- I no longer have kids in school, and I'm no longer teaching.

You have the two extremes; those who go out of their not to get carried away with hatred against Muslims and those who do exaggerate the hatred. Fact of the matter is, in spite of the fact that Muslims might be given special privileges in some places because of this issue, I still wouldn't want to be a Muslim living anywhere in US after 911, especially, as I mentioned before, when legislation still plays the Muslim fearmongering card and fans those flames when it's convenient for them..

I would MUCH rather be a Muslim living in America than a Christian living in Iraq or Iran or Sudan or Qatar, or Egypt, or Syria or....

seanD

February 14th 2012, 01:22 PM

Actually, this goes back to pre-911... and now that you mention it, I'll have to check to see if this is still the case in my area -- I no longer have kids in school, and I'm no longer teaching.

I would MUCH rather be a Muslim living in America than a Christian living in Iraq or Iran or Sudan or Qatar, or Egypt, or Syria or....

Hmm, that's an interesting question. Iraq post-Hussein... yes. Egypt post-Mubarak... yes. Qatar... definitely! Sudan, not sure. Syria... yes, now.

Cow Poke

February 14th 2012, 01:26 PM

Hmm, that's an interesting question. Iraq post-Hussein... yes. Egypt post-Mubarak... yes. Qatar... definitely! Sudan, not sure. Syria... yes, now.

According to Voice of the Martyrs (http://www.persecution.org/), Sudan has been the WORST place in the world for a Christian to live for quite some time, now. They have been sold into slavery, raped, executed... and all at the hands of the Muslims.

That really comes to the heart of what the OP is all about, Sean.

seanD

February 14th 2012, 01:33 PM

According to Voice of the Martyrs (http://www.persecution.org/), Sudan has been the WORST place in the world for a Christian to live for quite some time, now. They have been sold into slavery, raped, executed... and all at the hands of the Muslims.

That really comes to the heart of what the OP is all about, Sean.

True, but it just sort of irks me when Christians express concern about other Christians overseas on one side of their mouth, yet get all patriotic and gungho about all these wars against "terrorism," when in fact these wars end up setting up the very regimes that Christians rant and rave about in the first place. It just looks like people absorbed with all the BS propaganda that's fed to them on television, but completely uneducated about what's actually happening in the world.

Cow Poke

February 14th 2012, 01:37 PM

True, but it just sort of irks me when Christians express concern about other Christians overseas on one side of their mouth, yet get all patriotic and gungho about all these wars against "terrorism," when in fact these wars end up setting up the very regimes that Christians rant and rave about in the first place. It just looks like people absorbed with all the BS propaganda that's fed to them on television, but completely uneducated about what's actually happening in the world.

I won't argue at all, Sean, that "we" have used the Muslims in our wars throughout the world. And you're not hearing me defending that. I think the classic example was Afghanistan, where we (me too, back then) were thrilled to have the "freedom fighters" on our side, and we trained and armed them, then ended up fighting against them.

I'd encourage you to do some research, though, about the situation in Sudan -- Muslims have been slaughtering Christians there for quite some time.

seanD

February 14th 2012, 01:40 PM

I won't argue at all, Sean, that "we" have used the Muslims in our wars throughout the world. And you're not hearing me defending that. I think the classic example was Afghanistan, where we (me too, back then) were thrilled to have the "freedom fighters" on our side, and we trained and armed them, then ended up fighting against them.

I'd encourage you to do some research, though, about the situation in Sudan -- Muslims have been slaughtering Christians there for quite some time.

I'm not refuting what you said about Sudan, I just didn't have much info about it, but I wouldn't be surprised that that's happening.

Cow Poke

February 14th 2012, 04:16 PM

I'm not refuting what you said about Sudan, I just didn't have much info about it, but I wouldn't be surprised that that's happening.

Understood -- what I don't understand is how we (as a Nation) got all concerned about "ethnic cleansing" in Kosovo, but things like Sudan get little official government attention.

One Bad Pig

February 14th 2012, 04:26 PM

Understood -- what I don't understand is how we (as a Nation) got all concerned about "ethnic cleansing" in Kosovo, but things like Sudan get little official government attention.
And in Kosovo, we uncritically took the side of the Moslems against the Christians. :duh:

Cow Poke

February 14th 2012, 04:28 PM

And in Kosovo, we uncritically took the side of the Moslems against the Christians. :duh:

Because it got all hyped up into a "you gotta do something" --- so we bombed from high altitudes cause we didn't want planes getting shot down, making strategic bombing impossible, and increasing the risk of collateral damage.... :doh: It didn't make sense to me then, and it SURE doesn't in retrospect.

And did the US get ANY kudos from the Muslims for this? :no:

Jedidiah

February 14th 2012, 04:48 PM

No Muslims seem to find this a worthwhile thread.

seanD

February 14th 2012, 05:20 PM

Because it got all hyped up into a "you gotta do something" --- so we bombed from high altitudes cause we didn't want planes getting shot down, making strategic bombing impossible, and increasing the risk of collateral damage.... :doh: It didn't make sense to me then, and it SURE doesn't in retrospect.

And did the US get ANY kudos from the Muslims for this? :no:

That's not what it looks like to me. CIA had spooks (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iulV6tVYTvoyPbFx5VyUmnMG7kqQ) in that country about a decade before the bombings took place. There are also reports that the KLA was actually a terrorist network that had links to al-Qaeda. My guess is that the al-Qaeda terrorist didn't thank us because they were merely completing a mission they were given. So what it looks like to me is the SAME situation we saw in Libya and are seeing in Syria. US hires Muslim terrorist mercenaries to achieve an objective (of which we don't find out until later) and they sell it to world as though it's either a humanitarian campaign or a "fight al-Qaeda" campaign. Fact of the matter is, we helped a terrorist group achieve some objective and attacked Christians to do it. This is what I'm talking about. And this is what irks me about people like you and the facts. You might want to actually dig deeper into the facts than what you hear on Fox News before expressing outrage about what you think are the facts.

Cow Poke

February 14th 2012, 05:24 PM

That's not what it looks like to me. CIA had spooks (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iulV6tVYTvoyPbFx5VyUmnMG7kqQ) in that country about a decade before the bombings took place. There are also reports that the KLA was actually a terrorist network that had links to al-Qaeda. My guess is that the al-Qaeda terrorist didn't thank us because they were merely completing a mission they were given. So what it looks like to me is the SAME situation we saw in Libya and are seeing in Syria. US hires Muslim terrorist mercenaries to achieve an objective (of which we don't find out until later) and they sell it to world as though it's either a humanitarian campaign or a "fight al-Qaeda" campaign. Fact of the matter is, we helped a terrorist group achieve some objective and attacked Christians to do it. This is what I'm talking about. And this is what irks me about people like you and the facts. You might want to actually dig deeper into the facts than what you hear on Fox News before expressing outrage about what you think are the facts.

Woah, Sean .... calm yourself brother!

I'm not defending the action at ALL --- and DON'T FOOL yourself by thinking that you understand what's going on in the spook world. I'm honest and exprienced enough to know that we only know what we're told --- by ANY media --- not just Fox News.

I happen to know a little about how the CIA operates, Sean, as I spent some time "in country" in a country where we didn't officially have any assets. In other words, I wasn't "really" there. :shrug: The story that came back to the states had NOTHING to do with what actually happened.

seanD

February 14th 2012, 05:36 PM

Woah, Sean .... calm yourself brother!

I'm not defending the action at ALL --- and DON'T FOOL yourself by thinking that you understand what's going on in the spook world. I'm honest and exprienced enough to know that we only know what we're told --- by ANY media --- not just Fox News.

I happen to know a little about how the CIA operates, Sean, as I spent some time "in country" in a country where we didn't officially have any assets. In other words, I wasn't "really" there. :shrug: The story that came back to the states had NOTHING to do with what actually happened.

I'm just saying, all this hot air about what Muslims are doing Christians, yet all this duplicity and exaggerated support of our military conservatives are notoriously known for is a complete contradiction. And I only chalk it up as complete and willing ignorance and gullibility. I'm not necessarily accusing you of this... I'm just venting.

Cow Poke

February 14th 2012, 05:39 PM

I'm just saying, all this hot air about what Muslims are doing Christians, yet all this duplicity and exaggerated support of our military conservatives are notoriously known for is a complete contradiction. And I only chalk it up as complete and willing ignorance and gullibility. I'm not necessarily accusing you of this... I'm just venting.

So, aren't you doing the same thing that "irks" you? You're kinda shooting from the hip without even aiming... here's what you said....

And this is what irks me about people like you and the facts.

"people like you".

Now, I'd really like to know if you're saying that you think that Muslims aren't killing Christians more than Christians are killing Muslims in this day and age.

seanD

February 14th 2012, 05:49 PM

So, aren't you doing the same thing that "irks" you? You're kinda shooting from the hip without even aiming... here's what you said....

"people like you".

Now, I'd really like to know if you're saying that you think that Muslims aren't killing Christians more than Christians are killing Muslims in this day and age.

I'm not denying Muslims are slaughtering Christians, nor am I defending Muslims, and I'm too smart to let you steer it in that direction. :smile:

I don't understand why conservatives whine about Muslims and what they're doing to Christians on one hand, yet on other other, they're gungho about the US military and feel extraordinarily reluctant to criticize anything the military does, when the US military is the cause of a lot of these situations happening to Christians. Doesn't make much sense to me. The only conclusion I can make is that conservatives are just as gullible and ignorant about the facts of what's actually happening in the world like everyone else, and get their disinfo from other conservative networks that are just as ignorant about the facts.

Cow Poke

February 14th 2012, 05:57 PM

I'm not denying Muslims are slaughtering Christians, nor am I defending Muslims, and I'm too smart to let you steer it in that direction. :smile:

I should hope so!

I don't understand why conservatives whine

Really? Whine? is this constructive discussion, Sean?

about Muslims and what they're doing to Christians on one hand,

documentable fact, which you appear to be in agreement. :shrug:

yet on other other, they're gungho about the US military and feel extraordinarily reluctant to criticize anything the military does, when the US military is the cause of a lot of these situations happening to Christians.

Have you seen me doing that, Sean? Wasn't I the one who brought up the mess we inherited in Afghanistan? How bout an apology for your "people like you" broad brush?

Doesn't make much sense to me. The only conclusion I can make is that conservatives are just as gullible and ignorant about the facts of what's actually happening in the world like everyone else, and get their disinfo from other conservative networks that are just as ignorant about the facts.

Again --- I think you're doing EXACTLY what "irks" you about conservatives. PLEASE tell me you don't claim to be "fair and balanced". :grin:

Onceametho

February 14th 2012, 07:14 PM

Hi Cow Poke

First, there seems to be no end to "extremists" --- and, for crying out loud, to KILL SOMEBODY over a CARTOON!?!?!?!
If such a think happened from the Christian world, it would be loudly and clearly denounced from EVERY QUADRANT of Christianity!

Quite agree and not only in every quadrant of Christianity.

So the peaceful majority ought to DO something about it -- like loudly and clearly denounce the nutjobs in your religion, and figure out ways to bring a halt to that.

Unfortunately, that's the nature of the silent (peaceful) majority. It takes an extreme event(s) which directly affects the silent majority for them to do something. That's what is happening in Syria, Egypt, Greece at the moment.
I am part of a silent majority but if someone did harm to my family, especially my 8 year old son, just maybe I would turn extremist!!! Not sure!
Maybe it's a blessing that there is a silent majority. Imagine the state of the world if we were all extremists!

So, it's the media's fault that muslims can be so bloody and violent as to saw the heads off of people?

I'm not blaming the media for a "newspaper" cannot kill. But the media has had great influence in these matters.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/382 “Jihad against Danish Newspaper”
“ said the cartoons were a test of whether the threat of Islamic terrorism had limited the freedom of expression in Denmark.”

If only this test was not carried out!!!

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/778 “BBC admits fatal negligence”
"One wonders why the BBC did not check with Jyllands-Posten, and ask them for copies of the original cartoons, before broadcasting the news to a worldwide Muslim audience. One wonders also whether BBC journalists ever consult blogs. The twelve cartoons have been available on the internet for months. Moreover, if the BBC had published the cartoons on its own website – instead of pondering whether or not to show them – and fulfilled its duty as information provider this would not have happened. Perhaps extreme violence and some fatalities could have been avoided."

You're kidding, right?
I honestly don't think you'd find a Christian who would saw your head off for burning a Bible.

Perhaps not for burning a Bible but unfortunately Christians are just as guilty as Muslims for ethnic violence and pretty bad ones!

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2010/0525/Quietly-the-Christian-Muslim-killing-continues-in-Nigeria
"I live in a mostly Christian area, and now my Muslim okada driver will not take me there," she says, explaining that he is too afraid of being attacked or even killed. "He won't even pick up my calls."
Ms. Dassah lives in Jos, a city in central Nigeria now caught in a cycle of religious and ethnic violence.
Sandwiched between the country's largely Muslim north and mostly Christian south, Jos has endured a decade of periodic clashes between followers of the two faiths, a conflict that has flared up in recent months.
In two massacres this year, gangs with machetes from both sides descended on nearby villages and killed hundreds.

http://www.angelfire.com/mac/egmatthews/worldinfo/wars/yugoslavia.html
Fighting broke out in Bosnia after it declared itself independent and some of the constituent Serbs declared themselves independent of Bosnia. The destruction in Bosnia was even worse than in Croatia. The savagery was unusual even by the standards of 20th century wars: concentration camps, mass killings, systematic rape of "enemy" women, mostly by Serbs. However, Croats also tried to annex parts of Bosnia and drove Muslims and Serbs from their property, with atrocities.

Also of possible interest

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/646 “Danish Muslims divided over Cartoon Affair”
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/540 “Bounty offered for murdering cartoonists”

I strongly believe that it is not the Muslim RELIGION against the Christian RELIGION. It goes well beyond that.....buried in the depths of history. Pity it all doesn't remain buried.

Cheers

Onceametho

February 14th 2012, 07:40 PM

Hi mossrose,

I certainly don't consider the countries that invaded Iraq to be "Christian" countries. Not everyone who calls themselves "Christian" is so, in fact. Especially within a military group that goes into battle, certainly not every person in that group is a believer.

The same could be said about Muslims!

I don't know of any group of followers of Christ who have murdered Muslims in the past or nowadays.

Once again, the same could be said about Muslims.

One could argue that the "Christians" involved in the following were not "real" Christians. One could argue that the "Muslims" killing Christians are not "real" Muslims.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2010/0525/Quietly-the-Christian-Muslim-killing-continues-in-Nigeria

"I live in a mostly Christian area, and now my Muslim okada driver will not take me there," she says, explaining that he is too afraid of being attacked or even killed. "He won't even pick up my calls."
Ms. Dassah lives in Jos, a city in central Nigeria now caught in a cycle of religious and ethnic violence.
Sandwiched between the country's largely Muslim north and mostly Christian south, Jos has endured a decade of periodic clashes between followers of the two faiths, a conflict that has flared up in recent months.
In two massacres this year, gangs with machetes from both sides descended on nearby villages and killed hundreds.

http://www.angelfire.com/mac/egmatthews/worldinfo/wars/yugoslavia.html

Fighting broke out in Bosnia after it declared itself independent and some of the constituent Serbs declared themselves independent of Bosnia. The destruction in Bosnia was even worse than in Croatia. The savagery was unusual even by the standards of 20th century wars: concentration camps, mass killings, systematic rape of "enemy" women, mostly by Serbs. However, Croats also tried to annex parts of Bosnia and drove Muslims and Serbs from their property, with atrocities.

Not all who say they are believers are, in fact, followers of Jesus Christ.

Quite agree. The same goes for Muslims.

When you think of a "Muslim country", the odds are that the majority of the people saying they believe in the Koran and Mohammed actually do, and their hatred of Jews and Christians is inbred within them and colours all they do.

I strongly disagree. I have worked in Malaysia and now work with many Muslims from the Middle East, Indonesia etc, etc. This is certainly not the attitude that they take. I have found that the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving people who are very tolerant. Unfortunately, it's the extreme, radical minority that has much of the influence. Certainly not the views of the silent majority.
I found it interesting that, while in Malaysia, the Muslim communities did not "like" the radical Middle East influence. This was expressed to me on numerous occasions.

Cheers

Onceametho

February 14th 2012, 07:58 PM

Hi Cybelle,

Thanks very much for moving this thread. I guess I made a "boo-boo".

Throughout history, it is the things that we have NOT in common that make people kill one another.

Yet this thread is not about the history of killing between the faithful to one religion and the other; this thread is about the appearing of faint contours of a genocide against christians in the Islam hemisphere.....

There seems to be tendancy going on in the muslim world, from Egypt to Indonesia and from Turkey to Arabia, that it is perfectly normal to openly mistreat, discriminate, assault and bully christian congregations and individuals in society. Authorities do not take action and do not provide extra protection. And on top of all that, there are the murders, that remain unpunished.

The christians who are attacked are not immigrants or tourists. These christians are inborn citizens and have been living in muslim countries for many decades (if not centuries) and although they live totally separate lives, christians have always enjoyed tolerance and respect.

But since the Arabian spring, things have drastically changed. While fighting for their freedom against established governments, muslims attack, assault and kill christians on the way. Churches are burnt, people are lynched....

So apart from the history between muslims and christians, one question seems very legit to me: why are muslims killing christians NOW - christians who have been living in those countries for decades?

In other words, what has changed in the muslim faith - which claims to be peaceful - that all of a sudden, christians all over the muslim hemisphere, who are doing nothing but minding their own business, are being threatened and mistreated and have to fear for their properties, health and lives?

I cannot disagree with anything you have said. Very good and thanks for your clarification.

Do you think that it's actually not the Christian "religion" that is objectionable to the Muslims but for what it represents, that is, the affluence/influence of the West?

But as you say, what has sparked this recent bout of violence? Several decades ago, I can remember the violence that suddenly erupted between neighbours resulting in bloodshed. One day, they were peace loving neighbours. The next, they were hacking each other up with machetes. (In Africa....Nigeria or Somalia.. not sure and should Google!)

I have posted links to Websites when addressing Cow Poke and Mossrose. You may be interested. Christians are not innocent.

Just for your interest also "onceametho" stands for 'Once a Methodist' which I gather you may have realised. Certainly no longer.

Cheers

Cow Poke

February 14th 2012, 08:35 PM

Perhaps not for burning a Bible but unfortunately Christians are just as guilty as Muslims for ethnic violence and pretty bad ones!

Show the Christian equivalent of Jihad.

I strongly believe that it is not the Muslim RELIGION against the Christian RELIGION. It goes well beyond that.....buried in the depths of history. Pity it all doesn't remain buried.

Cheers

Again, show me the Christian equivalent of Jihad --- and we're talking "today", not centuries ago. The Christian "religion" has no mechanism or doctrine or holy writings that call us to kill Muslims and Jews, like Islam has an edict to kill Christians and Jews.

One Bad Pig

February 14th 2012, 09:42 PM

One could argue that the "Christians" involved in the following were not "real" Christians. One could argue that the "Muslims" killing Christians are not "real" Muslims.
Let's see:
Christian ideal: "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."
Muslim ideal: "Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you."

Yeah, they're almost comparable. :ahem:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2010/0525/Quietly-the-Christian-Muslim-killing-continues-in-Nigeria

"I live in a mostly Christian area, and now my Muslim okada driver will not take me there," she says, explaining that he is too afraid of being attacked or even killed. "He won't even pick up my calls."
Ms. Dassah lives in Jos, a city in central Nigeria now caught in a cycle of religious and ethnic violence.
Sandwiched between the country's largely Muslim north and mostly Christian south, Jos has endured a decade of periodic clashes between followers of the two faiths, a conflict that has flared up in recent months.
In two massacres this year, gangs with machetes from both sides descended on nearby villages and killed hundreds.
Which side is obeying their scriptures?

http://www.angelfire.com/mac/egmatthews/worldinfo/wars/yugoslavia.html

Fighting broke out in Bosnia after it declared itself independent and some of the constituent Serbs declared themselves independent of Bosnia. The destruction in Bosnia was even worse than in Croatia. The savagery was unusual even by the standards of 20th century wars: concentration camps, mass killings, systematic rape of "enemy" women, mostly by Serbs. However, Croats also tried to annex parts of Bosnia and drove Muslims and Serbs from their property, with atrocities.
Again, this is hardly the Christian standard. +Patriarch Pavle of the Serbs tried in vain to stop the violence by Serbs. The cycle of violence there goes back centuries, and the latest manifestation was delayed retribution for WWII atrocities, long suppressed by the jackboot of communism.

I strongly disagree. I have worked in Malaysia and now work with many Muslims from the Middle East, Indonesia etc, etc. This is certainly not the attitude that they take. I have found that the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving people who are very tolerant. Unfortunately, it's the extreme, radical minority that has much of the influence. Certainly not the views of the silent majority.
I found it interesting that, while in Malaysia, the Muslim communities did not "like" the radical Middle East influence. This was expressed to me on numerous occasions.

Cheers
Would this be the same Malaysia that just handed over a blasphemer of Islam to Interpol so he could be returned to Saudi Arabia for execution (breaking precedent)?

And is this the silent "majority" of Egyptians who gave Muslim extremist parties 70% of the vote in recent elections? That voted Hamas into power over the Palestinians?

Onceametho

February 14th 2012, 11:51 PM

Hi Cow Poke,

Show the Christian equivalent of Jihad.

I can't, but this hasn't stopped Christians killing Muslims

................. The Christian "religion" has no mechanism or doctrine or holy writings that call us to kill Muslims and Jews, like Islam has an edict to kill Christians and Jews.

Again, it doesn't stop Christians killing Muslims.

...............and we're talking "today", not centuries ago.

So are you saying that the God before the rise Christianity is different to the present? Are they not one and the same?

Cheers

Cow Poke

February 14th 2012, 11:57 PM

I can't, but this hasn't stopped Christians killing Muslims

Christains are killing Muslims because the Christians are Christians and following their Scripture?
Like Muslims are killing Christians because they ARE following their Scripture?

Again, it doesn't stop Christians killing Muslims.

Examples, please.

So are you saying that the God before the rise Christianity is different to the present? Are they not one and the same?

Cheers

:huh: before the rise?

Onceametho

February 15th 2012, 12:19 AM

Hello One Bad Pig.

Let's see:
Christian ideal: "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."
Muslim ideal: "Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you."

Yeah, they're almost comparable.

Unfortunately, you are trying to compare "apples with oranges". If you wish to compare the doctrines of the Islam with that of the Bible, then the closest is with the Old Testament and not the New. Compare the doctrines of the New Testament with that of the Bahai and one would be closer to the mark.

Also, the fact that the Christian doctrine teaches to love and not hate does not stop Christians from killing Muslims.

Which side is obeying their scriptures?

The Christians certainly aren't are they!!!!!!

Again, this is hardly the Christian standard.

I totally agree, it certainly is not the Christian standard. And yes, I strongly believe that it is not just Religion against Religion. It goes way back and it's the radicals/extremists who keep digging it up. Not the silent minority from both sides who wish to live in peace and are tolerant of all other beliefs.

Would this be the same Malaysia that just handed over a blasphemer of Islam to Interpol so he could be returned to Saudi Arabia for execution (breaking precedent)?

Are you able to supply reference please so that I can check? As I said, I have worked in Malaysia and am currently working with many people of differing religious beliefs. Have you ventured into countries like Malaysia (and I'm not talking about being on holidays)?

And is this the silent "majority" of Egyptians who gave Muslim extremist parties 70% of the vote in recent elections? That voted Hamas into power over the Palestinians?

Your statement might hold some validity if, in those countries, COMPULSORY voting was ENFORCED. It is not.

Cheers

One Bad Pig

February 15th 2012, 12:37 AM

Hello One Bad Pig.

Unfortunately, you are trying to compare "apples with oranges". If you wish to compare the doctrines of the Islam with that of the Bible, then the closest is with the Old Testament and not the New. Compare the doctrines of the New Testament with that of the Bahai and one would be closer to the mark.
:doh: You're the one trying to compare apples with oranges, genius.

I totally agree, it certainly is not the Christian standard. And yes, I strongly believe that it is not just Religion against Religion. It goes way back and it's the radicals/extremists who keep digging it up. Not the silent minority from both sides who wish to live in peace and are tolerant of all other beliefs.
Didn't you just allege that the vast majority want to live in peace? Now it's the "silent minority". Either way, it's an argument from silence.

Are you able to supply reference please so that I can check? As I said, I have worked in Malaysia and am currently working with many people of differing religious beliefs. Have you ventured into countries like Malaysia (and I'm not talking about being on holidays)?
Link (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/13/us-saudi-blogger-idUSTRE81C13720120213) - apparently Interpol was not involved after all, and the decision to deport him was all on Malaysia.

Your statement might hold some validity if, in those countries, COMPULSORY voting was ENFORCED. It is not.

CheersThe "silent majority" doesn't care enough to vote, but they care enough to complain to you? :ahem:

Onceametho

February 15th 2012, 02:03 AM

Hi One Bad Pig,

Didn't you just allege that the vast majority want to live in peace? Now it's the "silent minority". Either way, it's an argument from silence.

Sorry, I meant "the silent majority". My fault for not proof reading too well.

You're the one trying to compare apples with oranges.

Not true. The Quran has closer links to the teachings of the Old Testament, not the New.

Thanks for the link but it shows that these decisions are made by those in power and not necessarily the views of the majority of Muslims. Also, you have not answered my question about your ventures into foreign countries. What is your experience with Muslim communities? How much interaction have you had with the general public of Muslim countries.
Hamza broke the "law of the land". He knew what he was doing. He took a gamble. Just as Jesus broke the "law of the land" and was executed for his crime. I know!!! It doesn't make it right according to our standards but they are the facts of the matter.
And with all this, it still does not stop Christians killing Muslims (and vice versa)

The "silent majority" doesn't care enough to vote, but they care enough to complain to you?

Yep! That's the apathy of the silent majority. Your statement is still invalid as there is no enforced compulsory voting in the countries you mentioned.

"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."

I have read with interest your posts and do feel, by the tone of your posts, that you do not abide by the above statement. Is this true? Are you really "One Bad Pig"?

Cheers

Onceametho

February 15th 2012, 04:28 AM

Christains are killing Muslims because the Christians are Christians and following their Scripture?

That's the problem Cow Poke! Christians don't follow their scripture. Don't get me wrong! The vast majority do. The extremists don't. That's why they have killed and do kill and I guess will continue to kill Muslims.
This thread was about Muslims murdering Christians. I simply pointed out that Christians murder Muslims, evidence of which I have provided in previous posts. You have provided no evidence to the contrary.

Examples, please.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2010/0525/Quietly-the-Christian-Muslim-killing-continues-in-Nigeria

:huh: before the rise?

Christianity has not been around forever as you well know. It "rose" sometime after the execution of Jesus.
In a previous post, you said "........and we're talking "today", not centuries ago." This might imply that it was ok to kill Muslims in the past, but now, because of Christianity, it is not.
All I was asking you is, if this is the case, then it appears that the God of the past had different rules to the present God or they are not the same God! Perhaps you can clarify your statement and answer why the rules have appeared to change or the Gods have change.

Cheers

Cybelle Hawke

February 15th 2012, 09:35 AM

Before I will react to the posts, I would like to bring in a point of view which I received a few days ago from a former (muslim) collegue of mine on this very topic. His name is Abderrahim el Mehhdi and I have permission to remit two of his phrasings - which I had to translate in English.

1. The absolute majority in the West associates Arabs with being Muslim without making any distinguish. Yet this West forgets that also here in the Arab world, the absolute majority associates people from the West being Christian. When the US is doing something, most people in the Arab world automatically think it is Christians thinking, saying or doing so instead of merely a country.

This is one very big reason why Christians in Arab countries have been treated different then before. They have always been religiously different, but that did not lead to hate and dispise.

But now christians are politically linked to the West and they are, in the eyes of most muslims, linked to the leader of that West which they think is the USA. A leader who does not stop claiming to be a christian nation, yet who is considered by muslims to be highly corrupted, a straight liar and the very proof of how far away people can get from Allah.

Particulary this claim of being a christian nation not seldom together with a claim of being blessed by God makes the US a number one enemy for all those muslims who think that each and every non-muslim is a mere infidel and should be brought to worship the one and only God, which is Allah (praised be His Name). You will find many, many muslims who are fully and completely against terrorism and violence; yet you will find NONE who will agree that besides Allah, other gods can be worshipped.

2. The Arab Spring has indeed given space to severe increase of violence towards christians. I believe this has to do with the governments who are being fought against (Syria, Egypt but also Marroco, Algeria, and Tunesia). These governments always gave protection to the christians. Now I do not know if that protection was asked for by the West, and granted against favours or trades but I do know, that as long as there are no official new governments in countries like Egypt and Syria, that this protection does not exist and cannot be diplomatically traded for, and therefore, the christians are unprotected, or better said, on their own without highlevel protection.

And to answer your last question Cybelle, I do not know.
[whether there could be a worldwide religious call in the mosqs to wipe out christians]

We have discussed very intimately our own religious teachings. You are right: you are bound by a concept of forgiving and we abide with avenge. Yet this forgiving does not show very well in the arab world Cybelle. Too many innocent people have been killed among which children and women. You have seen how the US reacted when their innocents were murdered..... muslims feel that same rage.

Cybelle Hawke

February 15th 2012, 10:06 AM

Cow Poke

February 15th 2012, 10:27 AM

That's the problem Cow Poke! Christians don't follow their scripture. Don't get me wrong! The vast majority do. The extremists don't. That's why they have killed and do kill and I guess will continue to kill Muslims.

EXACTLY!!!! The Christians who are killing Muslims are, for the most part, DISOBEYING our Scripture.

HOWEVER, the Muslims who are killing Christians are doing so because YOUR Scriptures (if you are, in fact, a Muslim) TELL them to.

Cow Poke

February 15th 2012, 10:38 AM

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2010/0525/Quietly-the-Christian-Muslim-killing-continues-in-Nigeria

That link doesn't say what you think it says. It's not about Christians killing Muslims. :no: It's about Christians and Muslims killing EACH OTHER.

"Each side inflates the figures, and then the high numbers are used to justify revenge attacks," says Henry Mang, a researcher at Jos University's Centre for Conflict Management and Peace Studies.

I bet you won't take time to read it, but http://www.persecution.org/ has a section entitled "Islamic World" which documents the Muslim attacks on Christians.

Christianity has not been around forever as you well know. It "rose" sometime after the execution of Jesus.

:doh: Why do you think we are called CHRISTIANS? It is because we follow CHRIST! There weren't a whole lot of CHRISTIANS before CHRIST! :brood:

In a previous post, you said "........and we're talking "today", not centuries ago." This might imply that it was ok to kill Muslims in the past, but now, because of Christianity, it is not.

Only to somebody who wanted to twist what I said --- Muslims like to point to the Crusades as "proof" that Christianity is violent. There was a lot going on in those days, and Christianity today is much different than that.

All I was asking you is, if this is the case, then it appears that the God of the past had different rules to the present God or they are not the same God!

Absolutely falacious logic. Christians follow Christ, as mentioned before --- many things are different between the Old and New Testaments. That's why it's called the NEW Testament. :smile:

Perhaps you can clarify your statement and answer why the rules have appeared to change or the Gods have change.

Cheers

Because you have a very shallow understanding of Christianity?

One Bad Pig

February 15th 2012, 11:25 AM

Not true. The Quran has closer links to the teachings of the Old Testament, not the New.
Which has what to do with how Christians are supposed to act?

Thanks for the link but it shows that these decisions are made by those in power and not necessarily the views of the majority of Muslims.
The Malaysian government is considered "moderate", yes?

Also, you have not answered my question about your ventures into foreign countries. What is your experience with Muslim communities? How much interaction have you had with the general public of Muslim countries.
I haven't had any. Most people haven't.

Hamza broke the "law of the land". He knew what he was doing. He took a gamble. Just as Jesus broke the "law of the land" and was executed for his crime. I know!!! It doesn't make it right according to our standards but they are the facts of the matter.:twitch: And you complain about me comparing apples to oranges?

And with all this, it still does not stop Christians killing Muslims (and vice versa)
Where did I say it does? Christians sometimes wrongly kill Muslims in revenge for attacks on themselves. On the other hand, Muslims frequently attack Christians because their scriptures tell them to.

Yep! That's the apathy of the silent majority. Your statement is still invalid as there is no enforced compulsory voting in the countries you mentioned.
If they're apathetic, why would they confess such feelings to an outsider?

"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."
I have read with interest your posts and do feel, by the tone of your posts, that you do not abide by the above statement. Is this true? Are you really "One Bad Pig"?

Cheers
I do my best to abide by the above statement. Perhaps you could explain where I appear to be falling short?

Cybelle Hawke

February 15th 2012, 12:09 PM

Hi Cybelle,
Thanks very much for moving this thread. I guess I made a "boo-boo".
Not at all, in fact I think that on this civics forum it may be less threatening for muslims; room for political approach instead of strictly religious. After all it is far more safe and accepted to defend political views than religious ones, particulary on a christian site

I cannot disagree with anything you have said. Very good and thanks for your clarification.
You are welcome!

Do you think that it's actually not the Christian "religion" that is objectionable to the Muslims but for what it represents, that is, the affluence/influence of the West?
No doubt in my mind that it is of influence, however, the murdering of christians has, no matter how you wish to spin it, an undeniable and highly explosive religious component that will be very difficult to wrinkle out of muslims.
On the other hand, christians are very much aloof on this topic as well. I have yet to find a christian who absolutely agrees that worshipping Allah is no problem at all. The freedom of religion is a civil right in the Western hemisphere and people of other religions are protected by law, (not by people). The tension about who is actually worshipping the real one and only God has led throughout history to terrible bloodshedding and as I see it, this tension is growing tenser these days. Yet once again, the killing of christians in the muslim hemisphere has grown way beyond incidents and has entered the territory of tendancy. What I am trying to figure out is whether we are going from tendancy towards strategy/purpose.

Of course I do not expect too much openess from muslims on what will be their future course but so far I have not seen muslim leaders calling out to stop killing christians. And what worries me as well, is that christians here in the West seem to be occupied mainly with the growing status of muslims in the West, like they are trying to take over the West (islamization), whereas actually they are - if the killing goes on on the scale it is now - whiping .christians out of the East, and no doubt you are aware, that the origin of christians IS in the East. Moreover the religion of Islam started +/- 622 after Christ.... so the christians in countries like Turkey, Egypt, and Syria for instance are not the new kids in town so to speak

But as you say, what has sparked this recent bout of violence? Several decades ago, I can remember the violence that suddenly erupted between neighbours resulting in bloodshed. One day, they were peace loving neighbours. The next, they were hacking each other up with machetes. (In Africa....Nigeria or Somalia.. not sure and should Google!)

And do not forget former Yogoslavia. Although there was a major "tribal" fight going on, it just so happens that the biggest enemies were separated by religion: muslims and christians. And indeed as you say.... friendly neighbours one day, enemies to the death the very next day

I have posted links to Websites when addressing Cow Poke and Mossrose. You may be interested. Christians are not innocent.

You say Christians are not innocent.... innocent to your standard or not, ALL must be protected against murdering! It is open season on christians in the muslim world..... so what on earth are they guilty of that justifies the violent lynching, not to mention the discrimination and threatening??

Just for your interest also "onceametho" stands for 'Once a Methodist' which I gather you may have realised. Certainly no longer.
No I had not realized that. Such a pity that you felt you had to abandon your religion. But whatever church you no longer belong to, as long as you can love thy God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbour as you love yourself.... well then the rites and ceremonies can be put aside for a while. And who knows what you will find on your quest for truth. We all seek for some measure of peace in our lives .. Life can take people off and back on course but I believe that nobody can fall deeper than in the Hands of the Creator

Cheers
Hahahaha that must be typical Australian..... I am in Brazil and we say Saude!

-------------

Cow Poke

February 15th 2012, 12:19 PM

Additional note: I would like to stress that when he is using the word muslim..... he is basically referring to muslims in the muslim hemisphere. It did not feel right to interfere in his phrasing, which I tried to translate as literally as possible. However, reading it back, it might give the idea that he is speaking of all muslims, while, again, he strictly talks about muslims in arab countries.

Very interesting translation, CH.
And, yes, I agree that there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding on the part of the west that Arabs are, necessarily, Muslims.
I thought it was interesting that Abderrahim seemed to make it very clear that the difference between Christians and Muslims, in his (her?) eyes, is that a tenent of our Faith is forgiveness, and a tenent of Muslim faith is (not explicitly stated, but implied) conquest.

Perhaps you could comment on your perception of the notion that "peace" is not so much the proper interpretation of "Islam" as "surrender" is? Or is that a faulty notion.

Thanks,
CP

Onceametho

February 16th 2012, 06:19 AM

Hi CP

That link doesn't say what you think it says. It's not about Christians killing Muslims. :no: It's about Christians and Muslims killing EACH OTHER.

Oh, I see! So a link that shows Christians and Muslims killing each other is not a link that shows Christians are killing Muslims!!!!!

I bet you won't take time to read it, but http://www.persecution.org/ has a section entitled "Islamic World" which documents the Muslim attacks on Christians.

With many of your posts along with the "tone", you imply that I do not believe that there are more attacks on Christians than on Muslims. I have never said that. If you read my response to Cybelle, you will see that I agree with her. There have been many more attacks on Christians in recent years. All I have ever said is that Christians kill Muslims and that Christians are not totally blameless........end of story. Nobody has the right to kill anybody, no matter what.

And if you are on about a "numbers game", then in the eyes of your God, is killing 1 Muslim any worse/better than killing 2 Christians????

Why do you think we are called CHRISTIANS? It is because we follow CHRIST! There weren't a whole lot of CHRISTIANS before CHRIST!

So why are you telling me something that I already know????? Didn't my statement already tell you that I do know the derivations of the Christian Religion??? Please read more carefully.

Only to somebody who wanted to twist what I said --- Muslims like to point to the Crusades as "proof" that Christianity is violent. There was a lot going on in those days, and Christianity today is much different than that.
Absolutely falacious logic. Christians follow Christ, as mentioned before --- many things are different between the Old and New Testaments. That's why it's called the NEW Testament.

Once again, you fail to answer my questions with respect to your God of the past and your God of the present. I will ask you again. Since Christianity is so much different today than "in those days" and because the Old and New testaments are so different, is the God of the past different to the God of today and is the God of the Old Testament different to the God of the New?
And, if I wanted to twist what you said, I wouldn't have asked for clarification. Your accusations are false. If you do not want someone to misinterpret, then please write with clarification.

Because you have a very shallow understanding of Christianity

bAD LUCK. wRONG AGAIN. (Rats, forgot the Caps Lock.)

Cheers

Onceametho

February 16th 2012, 06:26 AM

EXACTLY!!!! The Christians who are killing Muslims are, for the most part, DISOBEYING our Scripture.

HOWEVER, the Muslims who are killing Christians are doing so because YOUR Scriptures (if you are, in fact, a Muslim) TELL them to.

Just love it when a Christian starts to yell!

Cheers

Onceametho

February 16th 2012, 06:47 AM

Which has what to do with how Christians are supposed to act?

Nothing. It's in response to you trying to equate the New Testament to the Quran. I was pointing out that that is like comparing apples with oranges.

The Malaysian government is considered "moderate", yes?

Yes, but my statement goes for all, not just Malaysia.

I haven't had any. Most people haven't.

Then may I suggest that you do. You may get a better perspective on life.

And you complain about me comparing apples to oranges?

I wasn't comparing apples with oranges. 2 men, 2 crimes against the State, 2 executions (1 hasn't been executed yet). Seems like comparing an apple to an apple or an orange to an orange.

Where did I say it does? Christians sometimes wrongly kill Muslims in revenge for attacks on themselves. On the other hand, Muslims frequently attack Christians because their scriptures tell them to.

I never said you did! If you think that Muslims kill Christians only because their scriptures tell them so, then this is a very naive way of thinking.

If they're apathetic, why would they confess such feelings to an outsider?

Why wouldn't they. Apathy does not mean that they do not talk. There is no law against talking to an outsider about their feelings on a range of topics. Should have heard the nice things they said about Christians.

I do my best to abide by the above statement. Perhaps you could explain where I appear to be falling short?

dON'T YOU READ YOUR OWN POSTS? (rATS! THAT caps lock AGAIN!!!)

cHEERS

Onceametho

February 16th 2012, 07:19 AM

-------------

Hi Cybelle,

Thanks for your reply. You speak with great wisdom. And thanks for the "letter" from Abderrahim el Mehhdi.

I find it interesting, that at a time when several Middle East countries are striving to be more democratic, that violence against minorities is on the increase. It doesn't make sense.

We in Ausyland are having trouble with "illegal" immigrants arriving by the boat load. I know other countries are having the same trouble. Most of these immigrants are arriving from Islamic countries. The immigrants are not just Christian but Muslim as well. I'm not sure of the ratio of religions but I know a very high percentage are Muslim. Love someone, who has time, to research this. Anyone???
There are Muslim minorities in these countries. Still huge conflicts in Iraq between the differing Muslim sects (for example). I can remember many years ago, people of the Bahai faith were set upon.....many murdered. Whole families paid big money to get out of Iran, many of them ending up in Ausyland. They left everything behind. Left their money in the banks, their houses just as though no body was leaving etc. That's the only way they could escape. Many spies.

So what do you think is driving Muslims out of an Islamic country? For some reason, not only are Christians being persecuted but also those of other faiths/sects. Are the actions now any worse than say 1 000 years ago? Not that we can really obtain a comparison.
As you said, "ALL must be protected against murdering"...... absolutely. No body has the right to kill another.

Cheers and take care in Brazil.

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 10:46 AM

Just love it when a Christian starts to yell!

Cheers

Well, maybe somebody will start doing that for you. :shrug: :lolo:

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 10:55 AM

Oh, I see! So a link that shows Christians and Muslims killing each other is not a link that shows Christians are killing Muslims!!!!!

If I said that Germans were killing Brits, would you say that's a fair assessment of World War II? You tend to leave out some important details. You're only telling PART of the story. That's dishonest.

With many of your posts along with the "tone",

You're ASSUMING tone, where there is none. Perhaps your little feelings are hurt?

you imply that I do not believe that there are more attacks on Christians than on Muslims.

Absolutely false. Perhaps you inferred that, but I did not imply it.

I have never said that. If you read my response to Cybelle, you will see that I agree with her. There have been many more attacks on Christians in recent years. All I have ever said is that Christians kill Muslims and that Christians are not totally blameless........end of story.

Then your communication skills are terribly lacking.

Nobody has the right to kill anybody, no matter what.

Another false statement.

And if you are on about a "numbers game", then in the eyes of your God, is killing 1 Muslim any worse/better than killing 2 Christians????

A "numbers game"? Are you just here to play games?

So why are you telling me something that I already know????? Didn't my statement already tell you that I do know the derivations of the Christian Religion??? Please read more carefully.

Please communicate more effectively.

Once again, you fail to answer my questions with respect to your God of the past and your God of the present. I will ask you again. Since Christianity is so much different today than "in those days" and because the Old and New testaments are so different, is the God of the past different to the God of today and is the God of the Old Testament different to the God of the New?

God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

:haha:

And, if I wanted to twist what you said, I wouldn't have asked for clarification. Your accusations are false. If you do not want someone to misinterpret, then please write with clarification.

WOW --- look who's talking!

bAD LUCK. wRONG AGAIN. (Rats, forgot the Caps Lock.)

Cheers

What has not changed is that Islam teaches its followers to kill Christians. "It is written". Islam masquerades as "peace" while advocating "murder".

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 10:58 AM

I find it interesting, that at a time when several Middle East countries are striving to be more democratic, that violence against minorities is on the increase. It doesn't make sense.

Can you please list the Middle East countries that are striving to be more democratic? Please note that a follow-up question will involve how well that's going.

Cybelle Hawke

February 16th 2012, 03:16 PM

Very interesting translation, CH.
And, yes, I agree that there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding on the part of the west that Arabs are, necessarily, Muslims.
I thought it was interesting that Abderrahim seemed to make it very clear that the difference between Christians and Muslims, in his (her?) eyes, is that a tenent of our Faith is forgiveness, and a tenent of Muslim faith is (not explicitly stated, but implied) conquest.

Perhaps you could comment on your perception of the notion that "peace" is not so much the proper interpretation of "Islam" as "surrender" is? Or is that a faulty notion.

Thanks,
CP

Sorry to respond to your request only now CP, which is mainly because I have been pondering on your question.

Abderrahim puts forgiveness versus avenge, when pointing out our difference in available "tools" to deal with suffering and acquire inner peace. I suppose you know what avenging to acquire inner peace means. If not I shall try to explain that.

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 03:31 PM

Sorry to respond to your request only now CP, which is mainly because I have been pondering on your question.

No problem at all ... I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

Abderrahim puts forgiveness versus avenge, when pointing out our difference in available "tools" to deal with suffering and acquire inner peace. I suppose you know what avenging to acquire inner peace means. If not I shall try to explain that.

Christians are nowadays no longer involved with going into the world and making all people His disciples, baptise them and teach them all that He has commanded (Matt 28:19).

I guess I'm an oddball, CH.... I don't believe we have achieved this -- I think we've just made it more complicated than it should be.

Somehow they feel that they have achieved this but we cannot forget that christianity was spread by conquering. Perhaps we have no scripture to sustain that we can use violence, but that has not kept us....

Christianity wasn't always spread by conquering --- and I have to wonder at the actual results of this method. Christianity was spread by persecution from without -- the more the Church was persecuted, the deeper its roots grew. I think this is part of the probelm -- we live a life of ease in 21st century Christianity. And, while we don't have a scripture in NT to condone violence, we certainly have scriptures that teach against it.

Muslims are equally eager to grow with their religion and they are convinced that their prophet is right, just as convinced as we think Jesus is right. This is a very complicated matter, when it comes to peace in the world, unless we all abstain from converting eachother and leave people to their own choice.

This would require, for a Christian, disobedience to the Great Commission. But I don't believe we have to kill or beat people up to tell them about Jesus. :shrug:

Yet religious leaders have the unfortunate tendancy to wanting to grow.... and they have a sharp eye for collecting a flock who is willing to comply with their wishes.

There are plenty of those, to be sure, but the megachurches are not "winnning" by battle or violence, they're doing it by tickling the ears of their prospects.

I think that before 9/11 there has been a difference in the attitude from christians towards muslims, and muslims were definitely more fanatic and opposite to christians inclined to use violence.
After 9/11 both have become more harsh and the victims of this are the minority of muslims in the West and the minority of Christians in the East.

That may all be true, but we don't see Christians routinely killing Muslims because our Scriptures command us to do so. On the other hand, Jihad is basically the battle cry of the Muslim to covert or kill the infidel --- ME!

I tend to 'conclude' that whatever wrong we do to muslims in the West, will be paid by christians in the East. This is the new terroristic order I see coming up.

Crimes or violence against Muslims in the west is a hate crime, and worse than if you beat up a non-Muslim. Where are Muslims in the West being killed by Christians? On the other hand, Christians in the East are being killed BECAUSE they are Christians, and being killed by people BECAUSE they are Muslims.

And I pray that wiser minds will prevail.

:pray:

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 03:36 PM

Cybelle Hawke

February 16th 2012, 03:49 PM

I edited my post completely wrong. Anyway, I am not aware of a muslim concept that strives towards peace in the world...(but I am far from being an expert so feel free to correct me)

I think christians assume that peace in the world can be maintained by granting freedom of religion but both christians and muslims have tremendous trouble in staying peaceful towards those who have done them or their beloved ones harm.

Surrender to Allah is a very important mission for the Islam religion to spread out. But Matt 28:19 also calls out for making all peoples disciples of Christ.

In the Qu´ran I do not see where in this surrender and converting peace comes in; in the curriculum of christian history I see that peace has been put aside every now and then.

The only thing I know is that muslims are as convinced that Mohammed is right, as christians are that Jesus is right. And this makes a peaceful co-existance only possible, when both submit to the concept of freedom of religion. I see that the West is perhaps too tolerant, and the Arab world not tolerant at all.

I do invite all christians and muslims to pray for this growing tension between muslims and christians to come to a stop and that the wiser minds prevail both in the West and in the East.

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 03:57 PM

I edited my post completely wrong. Anyway, I am not aware of a muslim concept that strives towards peace in the world...(but I am far from being an expert so feel free to correct me)

There is much disagreement about the meaning of the word Islam. It is "westernized" to indicate that it means "peace". Here is another perspective.

Islam & Peace

Bassam Darwich

Muslim propagandists are nowadays making extraordinary efforts to change the image of Islam by reintroducing it to the Western society as a religion that calls for peace and rejects violence. One of the new theories that they are trying to sell is that the name of their religion Islam implies the meaning of ‘Peace’, which in Arabic is Salam. The grounds for their theory is that both words are derived from the same root in the Arabic language!

While it may be possible to deceive those who do not speak Arabic or those who do not know much about Islam, propaganda like this does not fool someone who knows the Arabic language and the teaching of Islam, a religion that was established by violence and still believes in violence as a principal and as a way of life. The relationships between Muslims themselves and between them and all other nations have always been based on terror and still is. Islam and Salam are two incongruous words that share no common ground either in name or in substance.

There is nothing in Christianity that we can use to justify killing people for their failure to accept Christ as Savior.
On the other hand, there's Islam. :shrug:

Cybelle Hawke

February 16th 2012, 03:58 PM

No problem at all ... I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

I guess I'm an oddball, CH.... I don't believe we have achieved this -- I think we've just made it more complicated than it should be.

Christianity wasn't always spread by conquering --- and I have to wonder at the actual results of this method. Christianity was spread by persecution from without -- the more the Church was persecuted, the deeper its roots grew. I think this is part of the probelm -- we live a life of ease in 21st century Christianity. And, while we don't have a scripture in NT to condone violence, we certainly have scriptures that teach against it.

This would require, for a Christian, disobedience to the Great Commission. But I don't believe we have to kill or beat people up to tell them about Jesus. :shrug:

There are plenty of those, to be sure, but the megachurches are not "winnning" by battle or violence, they're doing it by tickling the ears of their prospects.

That may all be true, but we don't see Christians routinely killing Muslims because our Scriptures command us to do so. On the other hand, Jihad is basically the battle cry of the Muslim to covert or kill the infidel --- ME!

Crimes or violence against Muslims in the west is a hate crime, and worse than if you beat up a non-Muslim. Where are Muslims in the West being killed by Christians? On the other hand, Christians in the East are being killed BECAUSE they are Christians, and being killed by people BECAUSE they are Muslims.

:pray:

You see how the things go..... I edited this post wrongly, that is, I wanted to delete something and ended up deleting the whole thing. As I could not correct it, or did not know how to do that, I wrote a new post. Yet you reacted to my deleted post.... and so we kept missing eachother´s ideas and thought.

I will come back to both your posts a little later this afternoon and then we can set straight what went wrong in the correspondence.

Talk to you later CP and thank you for the generous amount of time you spend on my thread. It is a real pleasure interacting with you (as always).

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 04:15 PM

Here's a link to a video I would love to have a Muslim watch and comment on....

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/03/anjem-choudary-islam-does-not-mean-peace-islam-means-submission.html

Cybelle Hawke

February 16th 2012, 04:17 PM

I have to comment on the notion that the killing of Christians in the East is somehow related to the treatment of Muslims in the west. I don't really buy that. They hate us because of who we are, and because we are not Muslims. We could be super nice to ALL the Muslims in the west, and that is not going to translate into "Oh, I guess us Muslims need to start being nice to Christians, and appreciate thier presence among us".

It's not going to happen.

No not that way! There is no room for infidels in the concept of islam. And yes that is YOU and ME (lol)

I do see a connection between muslims being treated in the West and christians being treated in the East. The huge difference is that Christians do not go out and kill muslims. And should they do so, then it will most certainly not stay unpunished.

But muslims ARE treated in the West as potential terrorists. I am not saying that this is unjustified! But we cannot say that muslims are treated equally as Budhists, Jews or Hindoes for instance

Anyhow this thread is about the killing of christians. And yes, I believe too that they are being murdered because of their religion.

I think I got carried away by a shout of a muslim on FB that all christians in the Arab world should be kept hostage to drive the West to their knees. Goodness, the tone of this person was sooo frightening that it still gives me the shivers. I should have known better to post this here on Tweb though. That was actually part of the editing I intended to do.

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 04:26 PM

No not that way! There is no room for infidels in the concept of islam. And yes that is YOU and ME (lol)

I do see a connection between muslims being treated in the West and christians being treated in the East. The huge difference is that Christians do not go out and kill muslims. And should they do so, then it will most certainly not stay unpunished.

As I said, it's a hate crime in the US to kill somebody because they're a Muslim.

But muslims ARE treated in the West as potential terrorists. I am not saying that this is unjustified! But we cannot say that muslims are treated equally as Budhists, Jews or Hindoes for instance

Well, think about that... the TSA, for example, makes ALL of us take our shoes off and have our bags inspected and even pokes around in granny's undies BECAUSE they don't want to appear to be treating Muslims differently --- even though STATUSTICALLY, there is an INCREDIBLY HIGH percentage of Muslim involvement in US Air violence --- aka 9-11.

Anyhow this thread is about the killing of christians. And yes, I believe too that they are being murdered because of their religion.

:yes:

I think I got carried away by a shout of a muslim on FB that all christians in the Arab world should be kept hostage to drive the West to their knees. Goodness, the tone of this person was sooo frightening that it still gives me the shivers. I should have known better to post this here on Tweb though. That was actually part of the editing I intended to do.

:smile: Terrorism is a legitmate tool, in their eyes, of Islam.

One Bad Pig

February 16th 2012, 05:08 PM

Why wouldn't they. Apathy does not mean that they do not talk. There is no law against talking to an outsider about their feelings on a range of topics. Should have heard the nice things they said about Christians.
Apathy means they don't CARE. If they're talking anyway, they're just telling you what you want to hear.

dON'T YOU READ YOUR OWN POSTS? (rATS! THAT caps lock AGAIN!!!)

cHEERS
Yes, I read my own posts. However, we don't seem to be interpreting them in the same way, and I was hoping that you'd share your perspective. If I don't know I'm doing something wrong, how can I change?

seanD

February 16th 2012, 07:07 PM

:smile: Terrorism is a legitmate tool, in their eyes, of Islam.

Imagine what jihadists could do if they had unmanned drones. "Terrorism" is merely a word that is defined within the eye of the beholder. Other than 911, the only terrorists acts I see defined as terrorism by the west (other than just fearmongering about what could potentially happen if we don't give government more and more power to keep us safe) are Muslims defending their homeland from foreign occupiers; and since they basically live in the stone-age, they use any means necessary to do it. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong; it's just sort of a natural reaction one would have if any country was invaded by another country for whatever reason.

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 07:24 PM

Imagine what jihadists could do if they had unmanned drones. "Terrorism" is merely a word that is defined within the eye of the beholder. Other than 911, the only terrorists acts I see defined as terrorism by the west (other than just fearmongering about what could potentially happen if we don't give government more and more power to keep us safe) are Muslims defending their homeland from foreign occupiers;

The USS Cole fits into this category?

and since they basically live in the stone-age, they use any means necessary to do it.

Perhaps you will be comforted when Iran uses Nukes against on non-Muslims? :doh:

It doesn't mean it's right or wrong; it's just sort of a natural reaction one would have if any country was invaded by another country for whatever reason.

I'm guessing you're not a Jew.

seanD

February 16th 2012, 07:33 PM

The USS Cole fits into this category?

Perhaps you will be comforted when Iran uses Nukes against on non-Muslims? :doh:

I'm guessing you're not a Jew.

USS Cole was military, not civilian.

Why should I believe Iran will use nukes on another country, other than what Fox News tells me, when: a) this would be dumb because they know they'd be wiped off the map in a matter of minutes; and b) they haven't attacked another country in the last hundred years?

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 07:37 PM

USS Cole was military, not civilian.

Why should I believe Iran will use nukes on another country, other than what Fox News tells me,

Why this Fox News fetish, Sean?

when: a) this would be dumb because they know they'd be wiped off the map in a matter of minutes; and b) they haven't attacked another country in the last hundred years?

They're a terrorist proxy.

And in OTHER news...

First wave (1968 to 1980):

Many countries - Palestinian terror 1968 on.
USA - RFK assassination 1968.
Italy - El Al Flight 426 1968.
Greece - El Al Flight 253 1968.
Switzerland - El Al Flight 432 1969.
Germany - Frankfurt 1969.
UK - Marks and Spencer 1969.
Italy - TWA Flight 840 1969.
UK - Zim shipping 1969.
Belgium - El Al, Brussels 1969.
Greece - El Al, Athens 1969.

Germany - Munich airport 1970.
Switzerland - Swissair Flight 330 1970.
Various countries - Dawson's Field hijackings 1970.
Austria - Sabena Flight 571 1972.
Germany - Munich Olympics 1972.
UK - Israeli embassy 1972.
USA - letter bomb 1972.
USA - Hamaas Khaalis 1973.
USA - Stephen Gilroy 1973.
USA - Yosef Alon 1973.
Greece - El Al, Athens 1973.
Holland - Japan Air Lines Flight 404 1973.
Greece - Athens airport 1973.
Austria - train hostages 1973.
Italy - Pan Am Flight 110 1973.
UK - Teddy Sieff 1973.
USA - Zebra killings 1973-74.
UK - London bank 1974.
Greece - TWA Flight 841 1974.

France - Paris airport 1975.
Austria - OPEC 1975.
Greece - Entebbe hijacking 1976.
USA - Hanafi Siege 1977.
Spain - Lufthansa Flight 181 1977.
Various countries - poisoned oranges 1978.
France - Paris airport 1978.
UK - London 1978.
Many countries - Iranian terror 1979 on.
France - Paris bombs 1979.
Belgium - Brussels airport 1979.
Austria - Vienna synagogue 1979.
Spain - Max Mazin 1980.
UK - Mohamed Mustafa Ramadan 1980.
Belgium - Yosef Halachi 1980.
Belgium - Antwerp 1980.
Italy - Bologna bombing 1980.
France - Paris synagogue 1980.

Under Reagan (1980 to 1988):

Italy - Rome airport 1981.
Austria - Heinz Nittel 1981.
Italy - El Al office 1981.
Greece - travel agency 1981.
Italy - Rome airport 1981.
Austria - Israeli embassy 1981.
Austria - Vienna synagogue 1981.
Italy - Ostia 1981.
Belgium - Antwerp synagogue 1981.
France - Christian Chapman 1981.
Germany - Berlin restaurant 1982.
France - Charles Ray 1982.
Italy - El Al office 1982.
France - Israeli embassy 1982.
Austria - French embassy 1982.
UK - Israeli ambassador 1982.
France - Paris restaurant 1982.
Japan - Pan Am Flight 830 1982.
France - Israeli Embassy 1982.
Belgium - Brussels synagogue 1982.
Italy - Rome synagogue 1982.
USA - Daniel Jordan 1982.
Australia - Sydney bombs 1982.
USA - Hotel Rajneesh bombing 1983.
USA - Ahmadi attacks 1983.
France - Paris restaurant 1983.
UK - London 1983.
France - TGV bombing 1983.
Greece - Kenneth Whitty 1984.
UK - Yvonne Fletcher 1984.

France - Marks and Spencer 1985.
France - Jewish film festival 1985.
Spain - Torrejon 1985.
Greece - TWA Flight 847 1985.
Germany - Frankfurt Airport 1985.
Spain - Madrid 1985.
Denmark - Copenhagen synagogue 1985.
Germany - Rhein-Main Air Base 1985.
Greece - hotel attack 1985.
Italy - Rome 1985.
Argentina - Jewish kindergarten 1985.
Greece - EgyptAir Flight 648 1985.
Germany - Frankfurt 1985.
France - Paris 1985.
Italy and Austria - Rome and Vienna 1985.
France - Paris bombings 1986.
France - TGV bombing 1986.
France - Paris bombing 1986.
Italy - TWA Flight 840 1986.
Germany - West Berlin 1986.
UK - BA office 1986.
France - Kenneth Marston 1986.
France - Paris bombings 1986.
Germany - U.S. Tempelhof Air Base 1986.
Belgium - Antwerp synagogue 1986.
Switzerland - Air Afrique hijack 1987.
Italy - poisoned grapefruit 1988.
Greece - City of Poros 1988.
UK - Lockerbie 1988.

Under Bush (1988 to 1992):

Many countries - Salman Rushdie 1989 on.
USA - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
USA - Riverdale Press 1989.
Italy - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
Belgium - Rushdie killings 1989.
UK - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
Norway - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
UK - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
France - Rushdie publisher 1989.
Belgium - Joseph Wybran 1989.
USA - Rashad Khalifa 1990.
Switzerland - Kazem Radjavi 1990.
USA - Meir Kahane 1990.
Australia - Makin Morcos 1991.
Italy - Ettore Capriolo 1991.
Japan - Hitoshi Igarashi 1991.
Hungary - Budapest 1991.
Argentina - Israeli embassy 1992.

Under Clinton (1992 to 2000):

USA - CIA HQ 1993.
USA - WTC 1993.
Norway - William Nygaard 1993.
USA - Brooklyn 1994.
Argentina - Jewish centre 1994.
UK - Israeli Embassy 1994.
France - Algerian terror 1994-95.
France - Paris Metro 1995.
France - Jewish school 1995.
France - Paris train 1996.
France - Paris metro 1996.
USA - Empire State Building 1997.
South Africa - Planet Hollywood 1998.
USA - EgyptAir Flight 990 1999.
USA - H. Rap Brown 2000.
Germany - Dusseldorf synagogue 2000.
France - Villepinte synagogue 2000.
UK - Nabil Ouldeddine 2000.

Under Bush (2000 to 2008):

USA - 9/11 2001.
France - AZF explosion 2001.
USA - shoe bomber 2001.
Holland - Pim Fortuyn 2002.
USA - LA 2002.
USA - Beltway sniper 2002.
France - Bertrand Delanoë 2002.
France - Sebastian Sellam 2003.
Spain - Madrid 2004.
Holland - Theo van Gogh 2004.
UK - London 2005.
France - Ilan Halimi 2006.
USA - NC SUV attack 2006.
Germany - Amir Cheema 2006.
USA - Seattle Jewish centre 2006.
USA - CA SUV attack 2006.
Norway - Oslo synagogue 2006.
UK - London and Glasgow 2007.
USA - Chauncey Bailey 2007.
UK - Sherry Jones 2008.
Denmark - Odense 2008.

Under Obama (2008 on):

USA - Little Rock 2009.
Italy - Milan 2009.
USA - Fort Hood 2009.
USA - Richard T. Antoun 2009.
USA - Flight 253 2009.
Denmark - Kurt Westergaard 2010.
USA - James Larry 2010.
USA - Times Square 2010.
UK - Stephen Timms 2010.
Sweden - Lars Vilks 2010.
Sweden - Malmo synagogue 2010.
Denmark - Copenhagen hotel 2010.
Sweden - Issa Issa 2010.
USA - military shootings 2010.
USA/UK - cargo planes 2010.
Sweden - Stockholm 2010.
Italy - Nello Rega 2011.
UK - Gary Smith 2011.
Germany - Frankfurt 2011.
Australia - Sydney 2011.
Brazil - school shooting 2011.
Norway - apostates 2011.
Canada - Paris Dipersico 2011.
USA - Alaa Alsaegh 2011.
Germany - J. Gehirn 2011.
France - Charlie Hebdo 2011.
Denmark - Hare Krishna temple 2011.
Germany - Ferhad Ahma 2011.
USA - Gelareh Bagherzadeh 2012.

seanD

February 16th 2012, 07:42 PM

Why this Fox News fetish, Sean?

They're a terrorist proxy.

And in OTHER news...

First wave (1968 to 1980):

Many countries - Palestinian terror 1968 on.
USA - RFK assassination 1968.
Italy - El Al Flight 426 1968.
Greece - El Al Flight 253 1968.
Switzerland - El Al Flight 432 1969.
Germany - Frankfurt 1969.
UK - Marks and Spencer 1969.
Italy - TWA Flight 840 1969.
UK - Zim shipping 1969.
Belgium - El Al, Brussels 1969.
Greece - El Al, Athens 1969.

Germany - Munich airport 1970.
Switzerland - Swissair Flight 330 1970.
Various countries - Dawson's Field hijackings 1970.
Austria - Sabena Flight 571 1972.
Germany - Munich Olympics 1972.
UK - Israeli embassy 1972.
USA - letter bomb 1972.
USA - Hamaas Khaalis 1973.
USA - Stephen Gilroy 1973.
USA - Yosef Alon 1973.
Greece - El Al, Athens 1973.
Holland - Japan Air Lines Flight 404 1973.
Greece - Athens airport 1973.
Austria - train hostages 1973.
Italy - Pan Am Flight 110 1973.
UK - Teddy Sieff 1973.
USA - Zebra killings 1973-74.
UK - London bank 1974.
Greece - TWA Flight 841 1974.

France - Paris airport 1975.
Austria - OPEC 1975.
Greece - Entebbe hijacking 1976.
USA - Hanafi Siege 1977.
Spain - Lufthansa Flight 181 1977.
Various countries - poisoned oranges 1978.
France - Paris airport 1978.
UK - London 1978.
Many countries - Iranian terror 1979 on.
France - Paris bombs 1979.
Belgium - Brussels airport 1979.
Austria - Vienna synagogue 1979.
Spain - Max Mazin 1980.
UK - Mohamed Mustafa Ramadan 1980.
Belgium - Yosef Halachi 1980.
Belgium - Antwerp 1980.
Italy - Bologna bombing 1980.
France - Paris synagogue 1980.

Under Reagan (1980 to 1988):

Italy - Rome airport 1981.
Austria - Heinz Nittel 1981.
Italy - El Al office 1981.
Greece - travel agency 1981.
Italy - Rome airport 1981.
Austria - Israeli embassy 1981.
Austria - Vienna synagogue 1981.
Italy - Ostia 1981.
Belgium - Antwerp synagogue 1981.
France - Christian Chapman 1981.
Germany - Berlin restaurant 1982.
France - Charles Ray 1982.
Italy - El Al office 1982.
France - Israeli embassy 1982.
Austria - French embassy 1982.
UK - Israeli ambassador 1982.
France - Paris restaurant 1982.
Japan - Pan Am Flight 830 1982.
France - Israeli Embassy 1982.
Belgium - Brussels synagogue 1982.
Italy - Rome synagogue 1982.
USA - Daniel Jordan 1982.
Australia - Sydney bombs 1982.
USA - Hotel Rajneesh bombing 1983.
USA - Ahmadi attacks 1983.
France - Paris restaurant 1983.
UK - London 1983.
France - TGV bombing 1983.
Greece - Kenneth Whitty 1984.
UK - Yvonne Fletcher 1984.

France - Marks and Spencer 1985.
France - Jewish film festival 1985.
Spain - Torrejon 1985.
Greece - TWA Flight 847 1985.
Germany - Frankfurt Airport 1985.
Spain - Madrid 1985.
Denmark - Copenhagen synagogue 1985.
Germany - Rhein-Main Air Base 1985.
Greece - hotel attack 1985.
Italy - Rome 1985.
Argentina - Jewish kindergarten 1985.
Greece - EgyptAir Flight 648 1985.
Germany - Frankfurt 1985.
France - Paris 1985.
Italy and Austria - Rome and Vienna 1985.
France - Paris bombings 1986.
France - TGV bombing 1986.
France - Paris bombing 1986.
Italy - TWA Flight 840 1986.
Germany - West Berlin 1986.
UK - BA office 1986.
France - Kenneth Marston 1986.
France - Paris bombings 1986.
Germany - U.S. Tempelhof Air Base 1986.
Belgium - Antwerp synagogue 1986.
Switzerland - Air Afrique hijack 1987.
Italy - poisoned grapefruit 1988.
Greece - City of Poros 1988.
UK - Lockerbie 1988.

Under Bush (1988 to 1992):

Many countries - Salman Rushdie 1989 on.
USA - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
USA - Riverdale Press 1989.
Italy - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
Belgium - Rushdie killings 1989.
UK - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
Norway - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
UK - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
France - Rushdie publisher 1989.
Belgium - Joseph Wybran 1989.
USA - Rashad Khalifa 1990.
Switzerland - Kazem Radjavi 1990.
USA - Meir Kahane 1990.
Australia - Makin Morcos 1991.
Italy - Ettore Capriolo 1991.
Japan - Hitoshi Igarashi 1991.
Hungary - Budapest 1991.
Argentina - Israeli embassy 1992.

Under Clinton (1992 to 2000):

USA - CIA HQ 1993.
USA - WTC 1993.
Norway - William Nygaard 1993.
USA - Brooklyn 1994.
Argentina - Jewish centre 1994.
UK - Israeli Embassy 1994.
France - Algerian terror 1994-95.
France - Paris Metro 1995.
France - Jewish school 1995.
France - Paris train 1996.
France - Paris metro 1996.
USA - Empire State Building 1997.
South Africa - Planet Hollywood 1998.
USA - EgyptAir Flight 990 1999.
USA - H. Rap Brown 2000.
Germany - Dusseldorf synagogue 2000.
France - Villepinte synagogue 2000.
UK - Nabil Ouldeddine 2000.

Under Bush (2000 to 2008):

USA - 9/11 2001.
France - AZF explosion 2001.
USA - shoe bomber 2001.
Holland - Pim Fortuyn 2002.
USA - LA 2002.
USA - Beltway sniper 2002.
France - Bertrand Delanoë 2002.
France - Sebastian Sellam 2003.
Spain - Madrid 2004.
Holland - Theo van Gogh 2004.
UK - London 2005.
France - Ilan Halimi 2006.
USA - NC SUV attack 2006.
Germany - Amir Cheema 2006.
USA - Seattle Jewish centre 2006.
USA - CA SUV attack 2006.
Norway - Oslo synagogue 2006.
UK - London and Glasgow 2007.
USA - Chauncey Bailey 2007.
UK - Sherry Jones 2008.
Denmark - Odense 2008.

Under Obama (2008 on):

USA - Little Rock 2009.
Italy - Milan 2009.
USA - Fort Hood 2009.
USA - Richard T. Antoun 2009.
USA - Flight 253 2009.
Denmark - Kurt Westergaard 2010.
USA - James Larry 2010.
USA - Times Square 2010.
UK - Stephen Timms 2010.
Sweden - Lars Vilks 2010.
Sweden - Malmo synagogue 2010.
Denmark - Copenhagen hotel 2010.
Sweden - Issa Issa 2010.
USA - military shootings 2010.
USA/UK - cargo planes 2010.
Sweden - Stockholm 2010.
Italy - Nello Rega 2011.
UK - Gary Smith 2011.
Germany - Frankfurt 2011.
Australia - Sydney 2011.
Brazil - school shooting 2011.
Norway - apostates 2011.
Canada - Paris Dipersico 2011.
USA - Alaa Alsaegh 2011.
Germany - J. Gehirn 2011.
France - Charlie Hebdo 2011.
Denmark - Hare Krishna temple 2011.
Germany - Ferhad Ahma 2011.
USA - Gelareh Bagherzadeh 2012.

Rofl!

Name me a country that doesn't use terrorist proxies (including the one that was used to overthrow Iran's regime in the 50's). I mean, are you seriously going to make that argument after the discussion we just had about this the other day?

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 08:14 PM

Rofl!

Name me a country that doesn't use terrorist proxies (including the one that was used to overthrow Iran's regime in the 50's). I mean, are you seriously going to make that argument after the discussion we just had about this the other day?

Are you here to play games?

Muslims kill Christians because it's their religion.

How bout responding to the video I posted?

seanD

February 16th 2012, 08:22 PM

Are you here to play games?

Muslims kill Christians because it's their religion.

How bout responding to the video I posted?

I was responding to this...
:smile: Terrorism is a legitmate tool, in their eyes, of Islam.

The OP is more of a cultural and societal issue. Terrorism is more a single political issue. So that's how I responded to it.

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 08:25 PM

I was responding to this...

Hard to tell if that had anything to do with the OP, being that you broke up her post into scattered out of context pieces, but that's what I was responding to.

Do you deny that terrorism is a legitimate tool of Islam? Or are you just trying to be a jerk?

seanD

February 16th 2012, 08:27 PM

Do you deny that terrorism is a legitimate tool of Islam? Or are you just trying to be a jerk?

Does post #74 indicate to you that I'm denying it?

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 08:29 PM

Does post #74 indicate to you that I'm denying it?

The context is Christians and Muslims, Sean.

Terrorism is a legitmate tool of Islam.
Somehow you jockeyjawed into "other countries"......
Terrorism is NOT a legitmate tool of Christianity.

Cybelle Hawke

February 16th 2012, 09:14 PM

How exactly is terrorism a tool of specifically islam?

The IRA, ETA, RAF are terroristic groups who have not their roots in islam. The PLO also had palestinian christians supporting it (not active terrorists though)

I think we must be careful to link terrorism uniquely to muslims.

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 09:17 PM

How exactly is terrorism a tool of specifically islam?

Not specifically Islam, CH --- contrasting it with Christianity.... the two religions

The IRA, ETA, RAF are terroristic groups who have not their roots in islam. The PLO also had palestinian christians supporting it (not active terrorists though)

Christianity does not teach terrorism.
Islam embraces it.

I think we must be careful to link terrorism uniquely to muslims.

Please show where I have uniquely linked terrorism to Muslims.

Cybelle Hawke

February 16th 2012, 09:25 PM

CP I do not believe that there is an argument based on islam having legitimate tools of terrorism islam and christianity not.

Terroristic actions have been strongly condemned by muslim leaders and countries and the christians who are killed in muslim countries are not victims of terrorism but plain and simple slaughter and murder.

They are not even killed by a gang of running wild criminals but by fellow citizens who just kill them and continue their lives as if nothing specific has happened.

What is now the profile of this muslim who kills christians?

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 09:32 PM

CP I do not believe that there is an argument based on islam having legitimate tools of terrorism islam and christianity not.

One word, CH... Jihad.

Islam teaches it.
Christianity does not.

Terroristic actions have been strongly condemned by muslim leaders and countries and the christians who are killed in muslim countries are not victims of terrorism but plain and simple slaughter and murder.

SOME Muslim leaders have denounced terrorism, CH -- many have not, and prefer to utilize it. Some of them have claimed it is a legitmate tool. Some Muslim leaders will publicly denounce terrorism for western consumption, but endorse and fund it for domestic consumption.

And sawing somebody's head off is not just slaughter and murder, it is designed to terrify people. To send a message. Serin gas in a subway is not just "plain and simple slaughter and murder" - it is designed to terrify people.

It's like when Iraq was lobbing scud missles -- it wasn't the notion that they would kill lots of people as much as nobody knew when or where they were coming -- terrorism.

They are not even killed by a gang of running wild criminals but by fellow citizens who just kill them and continue their lives as if nothing specific has happened.

Can you please define "terrorism" for me, as you understand it?

What is now the profile of this muslim who kills christians?

I don't understand this question.

Cybelle Hawke

February 16th 2012, 09:43 PM

Christianity does not teach terrorism.
Islam embraces it.

Islam does not embrace terrorism CP. If that were so, all muslims should abide with terrorism and they absolutely do not.

Moreover, christianity may not teach terrorism but that does not mean that christians do not murder.

Once again, the argument that christians do not have scripture to enter into terroristic acts, has nothing to do with fact that muslims kill christians. They do not do so because they are terroristic but they do so out of hate towards christians.

And no CP, you have not linked terrorism uniquely to muslims. I apologize for giving you that impression which was certainly not my intention. Do forgive me.

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 09:50 PM

Islam does not embrace terrorism CP. If that were so, all muslims should abide with terrorism and they absolutely do not.

Characteristics of Iranian and Shiite terror

Besides the traditional terror methods of skyjacking or targeting specific assassination victims, the Iranians have developed two main methods that have become the trademark of Iranian-directed terror:

Suicide attacks – The Shiite terror organizations directed by Iran were the first to successfully use suicide attacks against Western targets in both Lebanon and Kuwait. The effect of these attacks was far-reaching: They brought about the withdrawal of the French-American multinational force from Lebanon and became the trademark of Iranian-activated Shiite terror. The Iranian media, and those of Hezbollah, customarily grant legitimacy to these actions in order to encourage the Palestinians to copy “the Lebanon model” by carrying out such actions.

Hostage-taking – In the 1980s, the taking of Western hostages became the principal modus operandi for exerting pressure on Western and other countries in order to change their policies on the Iran-Iraq war and the Israeli-Arab conflict, and also for the purpose of freeing imprisoned Shiite terrorists throughout the world.

Statistically, between 1980 and 1999, Shiite terror organizations and Iranian elements perpetrated 260 acts of international terror (this figure does not include Hezbollah actions against IDF forces in Lebanon and attacks against Iraq). Of these, 67 were acts of hostage-taking; 82 were acts of detonating explosive charges and car bombs; 12 acts of skyjacking / blowing up aircraft; and 97 assassination attempts, the majority of whose victims were Iranian exiles.

Iranian / Shiite acts of terror were perpetrated in 32 countries on four continents: 57 in Europe, 173 in the Middle East, 23 in Asia, six in the United States, and one in Africa. The majority of these terror attacks (190) were perpetrated on the territory of Islamic countries in the Middle East and Asia, owing to the existence of an apparatus of local collaborators and extremist sponsoring organizations that actually perpetrate the acts or assist Iranian bodies in their execution.

Because some Islamist governments have embraced terrorism as a tool of Islam does not require ALL Muslims everywhere to be terrorists.

Moreover, christianity may not teach terrorism but that does not mean that christians do not murder.

If Christians did murder Muslims in the name of Christianity, they would be clearly wrong, and resoundly denounced by leaders of Christianity.
When Muslims murder Christians in the name of Islam, they are practicing Jihad, a basic tenent of Islam, albeit allegedly badly misconstrued.

Once again, the argument that christians do not have scripture to enter into terroristic acts, has nothing to do with fact that muslims kill christians. They do not do so because they are terroristic but they do so out of hate towards christians.

You're totally missing the point --- it is AGAINST Christian scripture to murder people.
It is NOT against Islamic scripture for Muslims to murder Christians.

And no CP, you have not linked terrorism uniquely to muslims. I apologize for giving you that impression which was certainly not my intention. Do forgive me.

Absolutely, CH -- no problem at all.

Cybelle Hawke

February 16th 2012, 10:06 PM

One word, CH... Jihad.

Islam teaches it.
Christianity does not.

CP what does the fact that christianity does not teach jihad have to do have to do with christians being murdered

SOME Muslim leaders have denounced terrorism, CH -- many have not, and prefer to utilize it. Some of them have claimed it is a legitmate tool. Some Muslim leaders will publicly denounce terrorism for western consumption, but endorse and fund it for domestic consumption.

And sawing somebody's head off is not just slaughter and murder, it is designed to terrify people. To send a message. Serin gas in a subway is not just "plain and simple slaughter and murder" - it is designed to terrify people.

It's like when Iraq was lobbing scud missles -- it wasn't the notion that they would kill lots of people as much as nobody knew when or where they were coming -- terrorism.

CP we are discussing the murdering of christians in muslim hemisphere, not the ins and outs of terroristic actions that have occured here in the West. The link of the OP is using the word genocide not terrorism. So we are talking about specific actions towards christians

Can you please define "terrorism" for me, as you understand it?
I see terrorism as the act of making as much as possible victims (random) in order to draw attention to a message of political and or religious content. I see genocide is the specific elimination of a certain group of people....

I don't understand this question.
I tend to believe that the muslim who murders christians in the arab world is not the blinded, fanatic suicidial terrorist but ...... yeah ..... but what?

-----------

Cow Poke

February 16th 2012, 10:07 PM

-----------

............

:smile:

Onceametho

February 17th 2012, 05:01 AM

If I said that Germans were killing Brits, would you say that's a fair assessment of World War II? You tend to leave out some important details. You're only telling PART of the story. That's dishonest.

Of course it's dishonest. That's why I refer to the facts that Christians are killing Muslims AND Muslims are killing Christians. But this is not what Cybelle is on about is it.

You're ASSUMING tone, where there is none. Perhaps your little feelings are hurt?

Not assuming mate. Just read your own posts. Your posts are rude among other things.

Absolutely false. Perhaps you inferred that, but I did not imply it.

Play on words. Your posts imply. No doubt about it. Get back on the topic.

Another false statement.

So who has the right to kill another? Is this what Jesus teaches?

A "numbers game"? Are you just here to play games?

Once again, you can not answer the question. ..........then in the eyes of your God, is killing 1 Muslim any worse/better than killing 2 Christians?? You won't answer will you.

Please communicate more effectively.

Please read more carefully and how about getting back on track!

God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

But you once again failed to answer the question, in that if God is the same, then why are things so much different? Please read the previous posts to get a handle on this question.

WOW --- look who's talking!

I am talking. You fail to listen. You can not follow a discussion.

What has not changed is that Islam teaches its followers to kill Christians. "It is written". Islam masquerades as "peace" while advocating "murder".

And since your God is the same yesterday, today and forever, then your God of the Old Testament also teaches to kill.

Don't bother to reply mate, as I think you have your hands full.

Cheers

Onceametho

February 17th 2012, 05:03 AM

Can you please list the Middle East countries that are striving to be more democratic? Please note that a follow-up question will involve how well that's going.

Don't you listen or read the News????

Cheers

Onceametho

February 17th 2012, 05:21 AM

Apathy means they don't CARE. If they're talking anyway, they're just telling you what you want to hear.

Yes, I read my own posts. However, we don't seem to be interpreting them in the same way, and I was hoping that you'd share your perspective. If I don't know I'm doing something wrong, how can I change?

Point taken. I should have not used the "apathy" word I guess.

No probs now with your posts. I guess I'm too easily annoyed.

Cheers

Cow Poke

February 17th 2012, 08:35 AM

Don't you listen or read the News????

Cheers

Too much trouble to list them?
Easier to be snarky? :smile:

Do you REALLY think they're going to end up with democracy as we know it?

Cow Poke

February 17th 2012, 08:43 AM

Of course it's dishonest. That's why I refer to the facts that Christians are killing Muslims AND Muslims are killing Christians. But this is not what Cybelle is on about is it.

So why did you bring it up? :huh:

Not assuming mate. Just read your own posts. Your posts are rude among other things.

Perhaps you have a chip on your shoulder.

Play on words. Your posts imply. No doubt about it. Get back on the topic.

You enjoy being wrong, don't you? :smile:

So who has the right to kill another? Is this what Jesus teaches?

You don't believe I have the right to kill a home invader who is trying to kill my family?

Once again, you can not answer the question. ..........then in the eyes of your God, is killing 1 Muslim any worse/better than killing 2 Christians?? You won't answer will you.

Because it's a really dumb question.

Please read more carefully and how about getting back on track!

I KEEP getting back on track, and you keep pulling away ---- The ISLAM RELIGION supports Jihad. Christianity does not.
When Christians murder other people, they are going against the teachings of Christ.
When Muslims murder other people, they can justify it by their religion.

But you once again failed to answer the question, in that if God is the same, then why are things so much different? Please read the previous posts to get a handle on this question.

Please demonstrate that this is germane to this discussion.

I am talking. You fail to listen. You can not follow a discussion.

No, actually, you were typing. And I don't HAVE to follow non-related discussions. :shrug:

And since your God is the same yesterday, today and forever, then your God of the Old Testament also teaches to kill.

"Being" the same does not require ACTING the same in every situation or in every age. :no:

Don't bother to reply mate, as I think you have your hands full.

Cheers

OOOOOOOPS!!! Too late! I already replied! :grin:

Cow Poke

February 17th 2012, 08:52 AM

Don't you listen or read the News????

Cheers

Really easy question for you. A simple yes or no would be appreciated.

Did you actually read the article linked in the OP?

Cybelle Hawke

February 17th 2012, 09:28 AM

Hi Cybelle,

Thanks for your reply. You speak with great wisdom. And thanks for the "letter" from Abderrahim el Mehhdi.

I find it interesting, that at a time when several Middle East countries are striving to be more democratic, that violence against minorities is on the increase. It doesn't make sense.

We in Ausyland are having trouble with "illegal" immigrants arriving by the boat load. I know other countries are having the same trouble. Most of these immigrants are arriving from Islamic countries. The immigrants are not just Christian but Muslim as well. I'm not sure of the ratio of religions but I know a very high percentage are Muslim. Love someone, who has time, to research this. Anyone???
There are Muslim minorities in these countries. Still huge conflicts in Iraq between the differing Muslim sects (for example). I can remember many years ago, people of the Bahai faith were set upon.....many murdered. Whole families paid big money to get out of Iran, many of them ending up in Ausyland. They left everything behind. Left their money in the banks, their houses just as though no body was leaving etc. That's the only way they could escape. Many spies.

So what do you think is driving Muslims out of an Islamic country? For some reason, not only are Christians being persecuted but also those of other faiths/sects. Are the actions now any worse than say 1 000 years ago? Not that we can really obtain a comparison.
As you said, "ALL must be protected against murdering"...... absolutely. No body has the right to kill another.

Cheers and take care in Brazil.

The cruelty that arabs show in treating their enemies, and that includes other arabs, is shocking, particulary for the Western eye. Western people see these kind of treatments like barbaric (and so do I). But there is a cultural component in this cruelty which is not specific Muslim but simply Arab or Midde-east, or East. Before the religion Islam existed, this 'cruelty' was already part of the Arab way of how things are done.

I have resided some time in Egypt and Maroccos, and visited my dad some times when he was working in Saudi Arabia, and my Dutch Western eye 'noticed' that beating people and animals is really nothing special. Policemen towards suspects, husbands towards wives, wives towards servants, children towards animals..... while exercising authority, they just slap along with it... in my eye it is shocking, to them it is just the way the world works.

It seems to me that Arabs are not unified at all, in fact they are extremely divided. And then there are ethnical groups which are badly treated. Kurds for instance. I am not well introduced in the facts and history of these ethnical cleanings or persecutions, whether they are tribal or religious, but I do know that they are treated with severe cruelty and humiliated and tortured before being killed.

I have no idea why muslims move out of the arab world into your country but nobody will leave everything behind and go to a country which is a mess so the wealth and freedom is something that makes the West attractive to all who feel that they deserve a better future.

There are rumours that muslims are going to the West with a mission: to root there and spread the islam. I sincerely do not know.
I really do not see how christians will convert to islam, nor how people who abandon the christian faith could possibly surrender to Islam and its laws. What I do see is a growing muslim population in Western Europe because of the higher rate of children. But these children, raised in and used to the wealth and freedom of the West are not at all interested in submitting to fundamentalistic, orthodox islam and their children are often going to public (that is non religious) schools. But of course they are and stay muslim.

A 1000 years ago you say.... that would be then around 1012.... the Middle Ages..... I think everything was different. The Muslims had become very powerful. Pope Urbanus spoke his famous words on the Concile of Clermont on Nov 1095 which resulted in the crusades, and all christians had still fresh in their mind the crucial battle of Tours which had occured some centuries earlier (732) between Karel Martel/Pepijn van Herstel and Abd-al-Rahmân-ibn-Abdullah which, had it been won by the muslims, would have resulted that in Paris and London mosqs would have risen instead of cathedrals and on European universities would the Qu´ran be explained, studied and taught instead of the Bible. Spain for instance remained under muslim regime until 1492 until Granada fell but in 1453 the muslims conquered Constantinopel and went on until the gates of Vienna...

What has changed you ask?????

The urge to conquer most certainly not!

But then again, why are muslims killing christians in muslim territory? May I introduce the word genocide or is that too early or wrong all together....

Cow Poke

February 17th 2012, 09:40 AM

The cruelty that arabs show in treating their enemies, and that includes other arabs, is shocking, particulary for the Western eye. Western people see these kind of treatments like barbaric (and so do I). But there is a cultural component in this cruelty which is not specific Muslim but simply Arab or Midde-east, or East. Before the religion Islam existed, this 'cruelty' was already part of the Arab way of how things are done.

I have resided some time in Egypt and Maroccos, and visited my dad some times when he was working in Saudi Arabia, and my Dutch Western eye 'noticed' that beating people and animals is really nothing special. Policemen towards suspects, husbands towards wives, wives towards servants, children towards animals..... while exercising authority, they just slap along with it... in my eye it is shocking, to them it is just the way the world works.

Interesting points.

It seems to me that Arabs are not unified at all, in fact they are extremely divided. And then there are ethnical groups which are badly treated. Kurds for instance. I am not well introduced in the facts and history of these ethnical cleanings or persecutions, whether they are tribal or religious, but I do know that they are treated with severe cruelty and humiliated and tortured before being killed.

Some of this is sectarian violence between branches of Islam -- Sunni vs. Shia -- where they even destroy each other's mosques.

I have no idea why muslims move out of the arab world into your country but nobody will leave everything behind and go to a country which is a mess so the wealth and freedom is something that makes the West attractive to all who feel that they deserve a better future.

There are rumours that muslims are going to the West with a mission: to root there and spread the islam. I sincerely do not know.
I really do not see how christians will convert to islam, nor how people who abandon the christian faith could possibly surrender to Islam and its laws. What I do see is a growing muslim population in Western Europe because of the higher rate of children. But these children, raised in and used to the wealth and freedom of the West are not at all interested in submitting to fundamentalistic, orthodox islam and their children are often going to public (that is non religious) schools. But of course they are and stay muslim.

Britain and France both have large populations of Muslims who will not assimilate into the population. The video I linked to earlier shows the attempts to bring Britain under Sharia Law.

A 1000 years ago you say.... that would be then around 1012.... we are in the Middle Ages..... I think everything was different. The Muslims had become very powerful. Pope Urbanus spoke his famous words on the Concile of Clermont on Nov 1095 which resulted in the crusades, and all christians had still fresh in their mind the crucial battle of Tours which had occured some centuries earlier (732) between Karel Martel/Pepijn van Herstel and Abd-al-Rahmân-ibn-Abdullah which, had it been won by the muslims, would have resulted that in Paris and London mosqs would have risen instead of cathedrals and on European universities would be taught the Qu´ran instead of the Bible. Spain for instance remained under muslim regime until 1492 until Granada fell but in 1453 the muslims conquered Constantinopel and went on until the gates of Vienna...

What has changed you ask?????

The urge to conquer most certainly not!

But then again, why are muslims killing christians in muslim territory? May I introduce the word genocide or is that too early or wrong all together....

The article you link to, CH, uses the term Christianphobia as a factor in the killing of Christians by Muslims. It really is a thought provoking article.

Cybelle Hawke

February 17th 2012, 10:24 AM

First of all CP, I would like to express how much I appreciate you sitting down with me to go over this issue. And also I quite enjoy sharing opinions with you. We have been fooling around on the shoutbox and exchanged some lines on game and funthreads, and that was nice too but I really really like this conversation with you. :flowers:

Interesting points.

Some of this is sectarian violence between branches of Islam -- Sunni vs. Shia -- where they even destroy each other's mosques.

Exactly

Britain and France both have large populations of Muslims who will not assimilate into the population. The video I linked to earlier shows the attempts to bring Britain under Sharia Law.

Perhaps it is good to remember that the origin of muslims is quite different. France is flooded by Muslims of Nothern Africa (mainly Algeria but also Marocco and Tunesia); Germany and the Netherlands have huge quantities of Turkish muslims, the UK have muslims (and Hindos) from Pakistan and India, and Belgium has apart from all the above also muslims from the Center of Africa.

There is a particular group of muslims I would like to mention, and that are the Indonesians who perhaps only immigrated to the Netherlands and are by far the best integrated group in Holland.

I am specifying this, in order to point out that there is a rather big difference in [U]historical[U] background between these muslims which (un)defines their willingness to become active for eachother. I think it is common knowledge, but for the sake of my point, it is not automatically so that a Turkish muslim would commit a suicidal bombing for the Palestinian cause just because he is muslim. And an Algerian muslims do not stand in line to help Pakistani nationalists with their cause.

The strength of Al Queda has been the common ennemy which could unite/recrute fundamentalistic muslims in all muslim territories but in Amsterdam for instance (sorry I am best introduced in my homeland´s situation) Marrocans and Turks are not friends. They do not kill eachother but they cannot unite either, unless, against a common enemy.

The article you link to, CH, uses the term Christianphobia as a factor in the killing of Christians by Muslims. It really is a thought provoking article.

I am very reluctant in using the word Christianphobia because it would be too easily linked with the opposite islamphobia. Yet like you have stated various times quite accurately, in islamphobia christians do not murder muslims. So I really think that genocide is a word that accurately represents what is going on, perhaps not in the quantity, but most certainly in the meaning of the word

Cow Poke

February 17th 2012, 10:31 AM

Cybelle Hawke

February 17th 2012, 10:36 AM

Oh I forgot to write about the video you linked. Yes definitely one of the many sides of the coin which should not be pushed away because it might be offensive to the peaceful muslims around.

Cerebrum123

February 17th 2012, 12:08 PM

Muslims murder Christians (and every other non-Muslim they can find) ,because they are taught to do this in their own "scriptures". Their founder Mohammed set the example ,and it's followed still today. They even kill each other because they believe that the others aren't "true Muslims". Mohammed claimed that out of 72 sects that Islam would form only 1 would make it into Jannat (their twisted version of heaven). The Quran tells them to kill the infidels until there is "none but the religion of Allah". That means that they will continue to kill until either Islam really is the only religion left ,or until Islam is either completely reformed in someway (this would require eliminating most of the Quran ,Hadith ,and Sira) ,or outright gone. There is something called Taqqiya ,and it basically means that a Muslim can lie as long as Islam benefits. This makes it hard to trust them even if the "silent majority" wasn't silent ,and actually did condemn these horrible atrocities. Now I don't believe that all Muslims are terrorists ,and I don't believe that all of them are liars (in fact my neurologist is a Muslim ,and he seems to be a genuinely nice person) ,but when their own teachings say these kinds of things it makes it harder to know who is who among Muslims. I have been studying Islam from various sources for a while now ,and I have to say that when I decided to study Islam ,I was very naive about their teachings. I figured that they had some idea that you do so many good works and you get to heaven(this is in their ,but their versions of "good works" don't sound very good ,and their idea of heaven is perverted) ,and that they teach something generally like the "Golden Rule". The more I learned about Islam ,and actually from their own sources ,the more I was shocked. Most of what is in the Quran is threats of death towards infidels ,and the ahadith are so incredibly filthy that it boggles the mind that anyone can believe these things are "holy". Mohammed is the pinnacle of what really shocked me. He lied,cheated ,stole ,raped ,murdered ,committed genocide ,"married" a 6 year old girl ,and "consummated" that marriage when she was 9 years old ,he had special "revelations" that gave him specific benefits that aren't given to any other Muslim , He even claimed that he had been married to Mary the mother of Jesus in heaven ,and that he would get to "enjoy" her once he was there. He also died cursing the Jews (whom he hated the most since they saw him as a false prophet easily). This man is considered to be the "perfect man"? How can anyone who has done these things be considered the ultimate example of how humanity should live? These are just a few of the things that Mohammed did during his "ministry". Many of them come from the ahadith (some of which I could never post on here without breaking the policies of this site). The ahadith are supposed to be the sayings of Mohammed. They reveal more about his character than the Quran (which has it's disturbing aspects to his character as well). This is the man they are told to emulate ,and it's his example they follow. He is the one who "revealed" the Quran ,and He is the one who told all Muslims to obey him (there is a verse that equates following Mohammed to following Allah). He also claimed that he had been "made victorious through terror". The Quran and ahadith are the main scriptures of Islam ,and they are filled with commands to kill the "infidel". These are the reasons Muslims are killing Christians(along with all other "infidels" ,but especially Jews) ,and will continue to do so.

Cow Poke

February 17th 2012, 12:11 PM

Epoetker

February 17th 2012, 05:18 PM

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Muhammed was simply the first rap artist. All of his practices are part and parcel of the current rap industry:

-Borrowing wholesale from the current religions then adding a few personal bits and slapping his own label on them.
-Focusing more on the 'flow' of his book in its original language than any theological or narrative consistency.
-Endless feuding and gang violence over people who made songs mocking him.
-Encouragement of feuds and intrigues among his own followers in order to keep any one group from gaining enough power to subvert him. (See my signature.)
-Underage sex like it weren't no thang.
-Encouraging his female groupies to act as eyes, ears, and mouthpieces for his hype machine.
-Encouraging a revisionist narrative whenever things didn't go his way-Islamic arguments, especially any that harp on "Islamic civilization" (which usually means the accomplishments of slaves captured from Western cultures and races within Islamic governance. Indistinguishable from the popular Afrocentrism common in lighter varieties of rap.)
-A huge case of the not-gays stemming from the fact that de facto polygamy and disdain for teaching or learning useful work creates a sexually frustrated underclass of males led preyed upon by the harem alphas and used as cannon fodder in their endless wars.

Basically, Kanye West with some good warlording and organizational skills.

Epoetker

February 17th 2012, 06:14 PM

Now that I've outlined the general shape of Islam, let me add some remarks on SeanD's moral equivalence game:

Imagine what jihadists could do if they had unmanned drones.

Get blown up by our better-piloted, better directed unmanned drones, till they bully and whine for more Western weaponry? Get it straight, guy:

The jihadis are the 'unmanned drones' of Islam.

For all your posturing about American moral equivalence on terrorism, you seem remarkably tone-deaf on exactly which culture makes which things. Jihadis are the agents of a parasitic society meant to extract resources from productive nations and people through desperate passive-aggressive bullying, drones are constructs meant to keep a generally responsible peace over an area at the expense of the persons funding the drones.

And unlike Cow Poke, who holds a very mainstream view of things, I don't even equate Islam with the Old Testament. Isreal genocided the Amalekites on God's orders in the Old Testament because they were irresponsible, lawless, unsettled raiders who would keep no treaty made and prey on any lagging unprotected Isrealite, like the beasts of the field. The Amalekites were already dependent on raiding for their livelihood; they had power, but no responsibility in the way it was used, and thus they were destroyed. Whether it was an act of 'terror' to surrounding tribes was immaterial, the work was basically janitorial in nature.

Similarly, when the Puritans (basically getting the majority of their operational theology from the Old Testament) massacred the Pequots, they were doing so entirely on Old Testament principles-this particular tribe makes a treaty, people from this tribe kills or robs blind any settler out of our immediate jurisdiction, this tribe then claims ignorance or hostility when we ask about the perpetrators, kill they sorry butts and wipe their tribe from the gene pool.

Islam will never do what the Puritans or the Isrealites did, as their main model is enslavement, subversion, and degradation, not genocide. They have nominal responsibility over their own countries but internal improvements and policing outside of religious strictures are generally done reluctantly, if at all. The main product of serious Islamic states is soldiers, cash, materiel, schools, and territory for the jihad. Foreigners pump their oil, foreigners do most manual labor, foreigners maintain any financial liquidity, and foreigners manufacture their own products in their own countries, which they then buy. The only exceptions to this rule are those where the corruption of the secular princes enables them to enrich their own lives and buy their own jurisdictions (look at Dubai for the shiniest example, though even there foreigners do most of the actual day-to-day work.) Islam's productive citizens continually tend to escape to the West whenever given the opportunity, further cementing the parasitic nature of the remaining people.

And the only cure for a parasite is to eliminate it completely or starve it into taking responsibility for itself. In that sense, I do agree that our military missions have exacerbated rather than lessened the parasitic nature of the Islamic countries in question, but I'm in favor of returning our military to its proper rules of engagement (http://www.johntreed.com/rulesofengagement.html) and you're in favor of slandering them with loose associations to far worse people for following the confused orders of our liberal occupiers.

Get a brain and use it consistently.

Cow Poke

February 17th 2012, 06:26 PM

Epoetker

February 17th 2012, 07:00 PM

So, you're saying Islam is not so good?

If the current state of Catholicism is like a dying tree, Protestantism like a disused chemistry lab, and Judaism a poorly-regulated and loosely-designed nuclear reactor, Islam is like a very slow-reacting nanotechnological grey goo that gradually turns everything it touches into an unrecoverable slurry of ignorance, impotence, and intercenine warfare.

Yeah, it could be better.

Cerebrum123

February 17th 2012, 09:22 PM

Cow Poke thank you for your polite advice. I am used to posting on a different site ,with a far smaller character limit. You can't use paragraphs very well there either (the space the post takes in it's entirety matters too). I will try to do better in the future. I'm also glad that I got some polite advice rather than endless avoidance ,and ad hominem attacks.

Cow Poke

February 18th 2012, 01:57 AM

Cybelle Hawke

February 18th 2012, 07:19 AM

Cybelle Hawke

February 18th 2012, 07:56 AM

Cerebrum123

February 18th 2012, 10:57 AM

Cow Poke thanks for the welcome. I am not the best when it comes to remembering all the rules of Engilsh (like when to end a paragraph) ,but I will definitely try to do better in the future.

Cybelle I have a few things to say to your above posts. Mohammed being the founder ,and primary cause of all of this needs to be exposed for who he is ,and his character is relevant to this discussion. As for what to do about what's going on ,all I can say is that we need to get the truth about what Islam really teaches to the public at large. In the USA this will be very hard due to the current administrations policies.
We need to arm ourselves with simple information from their own sources. This is where the most shocking things are. It isn't always easy to get someone to listen to you about what Islam really teaches (especially if they think all religions are the same). Even if you do bring up some of the real stuff there may be someone using the Islamic doctrine of Taqiyyah (I always forget how to spell it since it has so many different ones available).
There are some verses in the Quran that seem to advocate peace ,and things like "turning the other cheek" ,but if you do your digging you will find that these verses no longer apply ,and have been "Abrogated". This simply means they were cancelled out by a later "revelation" of Mohammed.
In this day and age with computers ,and the internet, we actually may be able to get the whole truth about Islam ,and it's violent history, to the mainstream public. It won't be easy with so many people buying in to "moral relativism" ,but the truth needs to be known.

Cow Poke

February 18th 2012, 10:59 AM

My next question is, what should we, christians in the West, do (or not do)

Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

Cybelle Hawke

February 18th 2012, 11:22 AM

Why this Fox News fetish, Sean?
They're a terrorist proxy. And in OTHER news...

First wave (1968 to 1980):

Many countries - Palestinian terror 1968 on.
USA - RFK assassination 1968.
Italy - El Al Flight 426 1968.
Greece - El Al Flight 253 1968.
Switzerland - El Al Flight 432 1969.
Germany - Frankfurt 1969.
UK - Marks and Spencer 1969.
Italy - TWA Flight 840 1969.
UK - Zim shipping 1969.
Belgium - El Al, Brussels 1969.
Greece - El Al, Athens 1969.

Germany - Munich airport 1970.
Switzerland - Swissair Flight 330 1970.
Various countries - Dawson's Field hijackings 1970.
Austria - Sabena Flight 571 1972.
Germany - Munich Olympics 1972.
UK - Israeli embassy 1972.
USA - letter bomb 1972.
USA - Hamaas Khaalis 1973.
USA - Stephen Gilroy 1973.
USA - Yosef Alon 1973.
Greece - El Al, Athens 1973.
Holland - Japan Air Lines Flight 404 1973.
Greece - Athens airport 1973.
Austria - train hostages 1973.
Italy - Pan Am Flight 110 1973.
UK - Teddy Sieff 1973.
USA - Zebra killings 1973-74.
UK - London bank 1974.
Greece - TWA Flight 841 1974.

France - Paris airport 1975.
Austria - OPEC 1975.
Greece - Entebbe hijacking 1976.
USA - Hanafi Siege 1977.
Spain - Lufthansa Flight 181 1977.
Various countries - poisoned oranges 1978.
France - Paris airport 1978.
UK - London 1978.
Many countries - Iranian terror 1979 on.
France - Paris bombs 1979.
Belgium - Brussels airport 1979.
Austria - Vienna synagogue 1979.
Spain - Max Mazin 1980.
UK - Mohamed Mustafa Ramadan 1980.
Belgium - Yosef Halachi 1980.
Belgium - Antwerp 1980.
Italy - Bologna bombing 1980.
France - Paris synagogue 1980.

Under Reagan (1980 to 1988):

Italy - Rome airport 1981.
Austria - Heinz Nittel 1981.
Italy - El Al office 1981.
Greece - travel agency 1981.
Italy - Rome airport 1981.
Austria - Israeli embassy 1981.
Austria - Vienna synagogue 1981.
Italy - Ostia 1981.
Belgium - Antwerp synagogue 1981.
France - Christian Chapman 1981.
Germany - Berlin restaurant 1982.
France - Charles Ray 1982.
Italy - El Al office 1982.
France - Israeli embassy 1982.
Austria - French embassy 1982.
UK - Israeli ambassador 1982.
France - Paris restaurant 1982.
Japan - Pan Am Flight 830 1982.
France - Israeli Embassy 1982.
Belgium - Brussels synagogue 1982.
Italy - Rome synagogue 1982.
USA - Daniel Jordan 1982.
Australia - Sydney bombs 1982.
USA - Hotel Rajneesh bombing 1983.
USA - Ahmadi attacks 1983.
France - Paris restaurant 1983.
UK - London 1983.
France - TGV bombing 1983.
Greece - Kenneth Whitty 1984.
UK - Yvonne Fletcher 1984.

France - Marks and Spencer 1985.
France - Jewish film festival 1985.
Spain - Torrejon 1985.
Greece - TWA Flight 847 1985.
Germany - Frankfurt Airport 1985.
Spain - Madrid 1985.
Denmark - Copenhagen synagogue 1985.
Germany - Rhein-Main Air Base 1985.
Greece - hotel attack 1985.
Italy - Rome 1985.
Argentina - Jewish kindergarten 1985.
Greece - EgyptAir Flight 648 1985.
Germany - Frankfurt 1985.
France - Paris 1985.
Italy and Austria - Rome and Vienna 1985.
France - Paris bombings 1986.
France - TGV bombing 1986.
France - Paris bombing 1986.
Italy - TWA Flight 840 1986.
Germany - West Berlin 1986.
UK - BA office 1986.
France - Kenneth Marston 1986.
France - Paris bombings 1986.
Germany - U.S. Tempelhof Air Base 1986.
Belgium - Antwerp synagogue 1986.
Switzerland - Air Afrique hijack 1987.
Italy - poisoned grapefruit 1988.
Greece - City of Poros 1988.
UK - Lockerbie 1988.

Under Bush (1988 to 1992):

Many countries - Salman Rushdie 1989 on.
USA - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
USA - Riverdale Press 1989.
Italy - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
Belgium - Rushdie killings 1989.
UK - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
Norway - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
UK - Rushdie bookshops 1989.
France - Rushdie publisher 1989.
Belgium - Joseph Wybran 1989.
USA - Rashad Khalifa 1990.
Switzerland - Kazem Radjavi 1990.
USA - Meir Kahane 1990.
Australia - Makin Morcos 1991.
Italy - Ettore Capriolo 1991.
Japan - Hitoshi Igarashi 1991.
Hungary - Budapest 1991.
Argentina - Israeli embassy 1992.

Under Clinton (1992 to 2000):

USA - CIA HQ 1993.
USA - WTC 1993.
Norway - William Nygaard 1993.
USA - Brooklyn 1994.
Argentina - Jewish centre 1994.
UK - Israeli Embassy 1994.
France - Algerian terror 1994-95.
France - Paris Metro 1995.
France - Jewish school 1995.
France - Paris train 1996.
France - Paris metro 1996.
USA - Empire State Building 1997.
South Africa - Planet Hollywood 1998.
USA - EgyptAir Flight 990 1999.
USA - H. Rap Brown 2000.
Germany - Dusseldorf synagogue 2000.
France - Villepinte synagogue 2000.
UK - Nabil Ouldeddine 2000.

Under Bush (2000 to 2008):

USA - 9/11 2001.
France - AZF explosion 2001.
USA - shoe bomber 2001.
Holland - Pim Fortuyn 2002.
USA - LA 2002.
USA - Beltway sniper 2002.
France - Bertrand Delanoë 2002.
France - Sebastian Sellam 2003.
Spain - Madrid 2004.
Holland - Theo van Gogh 2004.
UK - London 2005.
France - Ilan Halimi 2006.
USA - NC SUV attack 2006.
Germany - Amir Cheema 2006.
USA - Seattle Jewish centre 2006.
USA - CA SUV attack 2006.
Norway - Oslo synagogue 2006.
UK - London and Glasgow 2007.
USA - Chauncey Bailey 2007.
UK - Sherry Jones 2008.
Denmark - Odense 2008.

Under Obama (2008 on):

USA - Little Rock 2009.
Italy - Milan 2009.
USA - Fort Hood 2009.
USA - Richard T. Antoun 2009.
USA - Flight 253 2009.
Denmark - Kurt Westergaard 2010.
USA - James Larry 2010.
USA - Times Square 2010.
UK - Stephen Timms 2010.
Sweden - Lars Vilks 2010.
Sweden - Malmo synagogue 2010.
Denmark - Copenhagen hotel 2010.
Sweden - Issa Issa 2010.
USA - military shootings 2010.
USA/UK - cargo planes 2010.
Sweden - Stockholm 2010.
Italy - Nello Rega 2011.
UK - Gary Smith 2011.
Germany - Frankfurt 2011.
Australia - Sydney 2011.
Brazil - school shooting 2011.
Norway - apostates 2011.
Canada - Paris Dipersico 2011.
USA - Alaa Alsaegh 2011.
Germany - J. Gehirn 2011.
France - Charlie Hebdo 2011.
Denmark - Hare Krishna temple 2011.
Germany - Ferhad Ahma 2011.
USA - Gelareh Bagherzadeh 2012.

Impressive list CP. Unfortunately the list is far bigger and a lot more nastier. Below I will describe some situations that christians have to put up with. It is shocking and unbelieveable that human right organizations, christian church leaders and the media are so casually reporting these 'incidents'.

My main source are the data by Franklin Ter Horst who is keeping track of christian persecution since March 2005.

According to El Shafie, Head of One Free World International, the number of persecuted Christians worldwide goes to 300 million. 80% are in Muslim countries; the remaining 20% principally in China and North Corea.
Each year around 110.000 christians are murdered in muslim countries alone, and that number is increasing rapidly. On top of the killings, hundreds of thousands christians are being assaulted, raped, tortured, molested and robbed from their property.

In the Middle East the christian population has drastically reduced. In Turkey the number of christians has been reduced from 2 million to 85.000. In the Lebanon christian population went from 55% to 35%, directly related to the actions of the Hezbollah; and in Syria half of the population was christian, yet nowadays this is 4%. In Jordan from 18% to 2% and in Iraq christians are massively chased out of the country.

CHRISTIANS IN PAKISTAN
In Islamabad christians are obliged to live in a ghetto surrounded by a wall with shards of glass on top of it. The heavy discriminated christians are not allowed to do work that muslims can do, their houses do not get electricity and the garbage is not collected.

Typical incidents
While crying 'death to infidels', muslims plunder and burn down houses of christians and block the access roads so the police cannot interfer. Women are raped and men burnt alive while their children have to watch.

links that confirm the above:
http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/viewnews.php?newsid=1460 http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/headlinenewsd.php?hnewsid=1295

http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/

Cow Poke

February 18th 2012, 11:27 AM

Impressive list CP. Unfortunately the list is far bigger and a lot more nastier.

Exactly. I just wanted to give a representative sample, because I had a feeling Sean would totally dodge it.

Cow Poke

February 18th 2012, 11:30 AM

And some of our posters keep ignoring the fact that Muslims kill Christians BECAUSE their Scriptures demand/allow/support (depending on your view) the murder of Christians and Jews.
Christians who murder Muslims are doing so AGAINST our Scripture.

Big difference.

Cerebrum123

February 18th 2012, 11:59 AM

Cybelle Hawke

February 18th 2012, 12:12 PM

CHRISTIANS IN AFGHANISTAN

It is estimated that 99% of the population in Afghanistan is muslim.

During a session of the Afghani parliament, Abdul Sattar Kwawasi called for christians to be executed publically so everybody can see there is no room for christians in Afghanistan. The reason why he brought the matter up, was that the Afghani television had shown images of Afghani who were baptised and had become Christian. His calling in for public execution found not one protest from the Afganian parliament members. Also on the university in Kabul, students protested against these muslims abandonning islam and called for the killing of all Afghani christians and to deport all foreign christians from the country. According to a government official, to abhandon islam is illegal and people who become christians should be punished.

In the summer 2011 the last christian church on Afgani territory was demolished.

The few christians (500-8000) confess their faith in Jesus Christ fully underground and live a life of deep fear of discovery

Note:
When I read this report, I thought at first, oh well, that is not so horrible compared to the slaughtering that goes on in other countries but then I came to realize how courageous these people actually are. They got baptized and confess their faith in Jesus Christ in a country that is anything but favourable towards people abandonning islam.

Cow Poke

February 18th 2012, 04:18 PM

Note:
When I read this report, I thought at first, oh well, that is not so horrible compared to the slaughtering that goes on in other countries but then I came to realize how courageous these people actually are. They got baptized and confess their faith in Jesus Christ in a country that is anything but favourable towards people abandonning islam.

In some cultures, "getting saved" is not as big a deal as "getting baptized". The rationale is that getting saved is a "decision" that can be reversed, but baptism is a public stand that is taken, and indicates that the journey will continue. A friend of mine was a missionary to Indonesia, and he tells that real persecution of Christians in his region did not start until they were baptized.

Cybelle Hawke

February 19th 2012, 02:33 AM

Cybelle I have a few things to say to your above posts. Mohammed being the founder ,and primary cause of all of this needs to be exposed for who he is ,and his character is relevant to this discussion.

The character of Mohammed can be related and reported upon without mocking (as you did), reason why I reacted to the post of Epoetker.

Also, I started this thread with the purpose to call out muslims for a reaction. I have sent out emails to muslim acquaintances and 2 imams and am waiting for their reaction, reason the more why I think there should be zero room for mocking anything they hold sacred as to not give an too easy excuse for not reacting. So far I have received only one reaction but I am convinced that I will receive more.

Meanwhile it occured to me that perhaps the persecution of christians is not so well known as the acts of terrorism, so I am posting info and details regarding this as well.

I highly esteem your input and think you have pointed out very interesting and relevant points both with regard to islam and its founder .

As for what to do about what's going on ,all I can say is that we need to get the truth about what Islam really teaches to the public at large. In the USA this will be very hard due to the current administrations policies.
We need to arm ourselves with simple information from their own sources. This is where the most shocking things are. It isn't always easy to get someone to listen to you about what Islam really teaches (especially if they think all religions are the same). Even if you do bring up some of the real stuff there may be someone using the Islamic doctrine of Taqiyyah (I always forget how to spell it since it has so many different ones available).
There are some verses in the Quran that seem to advocate peace ,and things like "turning the other cheek" ,but if you do your digging you will find that these verses no longer apply ,and have been "Abrogated". This simply means they were cancelled out by a later "revelation" of Mohammed.
In this day and age with computers ,and the internet, we actually may be able to get the whole truth about Islam ,and it's violent history, to the mainstream public. It won't be easy with so many people buying in to "moral relativism" ,but the truth needs to be known.

It is still very shocking to me that there is so little attention for the situation of christians in Afganistan and Irak for instance, while the mainstream media are collecting dust on the political and social status of these countries.

As you may be aware, I think we are now in the prephase of a genocide - and I recognize the same blindness and deafness of the world for its signals as in the early thirties preluding the persecution and slaughtering of Jews.

---

Cybelle Hawke

February 19th 2012, 02:46 AM

Cybelle Hawke

February 19th 2012, 03:30 AM

Yes it is a big difference ,and not one many people even know exists. They also have a hadith stating that the "Day of Judgement" would not come until the "Muslims kill the Jews ,and that when the Jews go to hide behind a rock or a tree ,the rock or tree will say ,"Oh Muslim there is a Jew behind me come and kill him." This ahadith also says a certain tree will not do this because it is a "tree of the Jews".
They have things like this ,and "fight until there is none ,but the religion of Allah" ,and yet they claim that they are worshiping the same God as Christians and Jews. Not to mention Mohammed's slaughtering of the Bani Quraiza ,and other Jewish settlements.
They also claim that Islam is a "religion of peace". This has to be an outright lie ,or a real ignorance of the Islamic teachings. I think it is both.
The ahadith ,and Sira are the places a person needs to look to find the character of Mohammed. The thing is I couldn't post a large amount of them here due to their content ,and the forum rules.

Re the ahadith & sira, how well, in your opinion, do you think they are implemented and obeyed in the life of a muslim living in the US (I saw on your profile that you are american)?
I notice here in Brazil for instance that Muslims are very liberally living compared to fellow muslims, sometimes even family, in the fundamentalistic muslim countries where the Sira is the law (Afganistan), or, when it comes to judgement, is put above the laws (Turkey).

It looks to me, that the freedom in the West seems to have pleased (beguiled?) muslims in such a way that they really do not want to go and live in the countries where their religion is lived to the letter... I would much appreciate your experience/ideas/opinion regarding this.

Cybelle Hawke

February 19th 2012, 04:16 AM

CHRISTIANS IN IRAQ
In 2003, after the regime of Saddam Hoessein, there were 1.5 million christians in Iraq (8% of the population). Early 2011 there were only 200.000
Many have fleed or were killed. Those who fled report that their families were bullied, publically humiliated, beaten and threatened by suny´s, shi´its and kurdic groups and forced to leave their homes and homeland for not wanting to convert to islam. They report that they were given 2 or 3 three days to leave their homes, if not they would be killed.

The christians in Iraq are not converted from islam, like in Afganistan. They are the descendants of the Assyrians who have lived in the region now called Iraq (Mesopotamia) for more than 5000 years and who have a christian tradition of almost 2000 years

The christian district of Bagdad, Dora, is the main target for 'incidents'. Churches are burnt down and christians are killed without any particular reason other than simply being christian. Shops belonging to christians have been plundered, destroyed and/or burnt down by mainly Suny groups. In Bagdad, when not wanting to convert to islam, a christian has to pay a protection tax (which in the end does not grant anything). The police files of all these crimes and threats remain in eternal investigation and are never solved.

Onceametho

February 19th 2012, 04:45 AM

Too much trouble to list them?
Easier to be snarky? :smile:

Do you REALLY think they're going to end up with democracy as we know it?

Certainly not in my lifetime. But at least some of the unrest at the moment just may be a start.

Onceametho

February 19th 2012, 04:58 AM

Hi CP

You don't believe I have the right to kill a home invader who is trying to kill my family?

So do the teachings of Jesus say that this is OK???? As usual you have failed to answer this question and many others.

"Being" the same does not require ACTING the same in every situation or in every age.

So your God of the Old Testament kills but your God of the New Testament doesn't kill!!!

No, actually, you were typing. And I don't HAVE to follow non-related discussions.

You were the first to break away and not follow the discussion.

Cheers

Onceametho

February 19th 2012, 04:59 AM

Really easy question for you. A simple yes or no would be appreciated.

Did you actually read the article linked in the OP?

Yes

Epoetker

February 19th 2012, 12:15 PM

The character of Mohammed can be related and reported upon without mocking (as you did), reason why I reacted to the post of Epoetker.

Seriously? I called him the world's first rap artist because his behavior is entirely consistent with the behavior of rap artists today. The only difference is that rap artists don't have near the power and organization that Mohammed had, so only their die-hard fans and groupies take them seriously enough to kill other fans, and even such feuds rarely go anywhere. Plus rap artists publicly mocking each other and calling each other out for the entertainment of the audience is a fine tradition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6H0i1RAdHk

The only conclusion one can come to when looking at the above is a hope that neither one of these two blowhards ever gets any real power over anything. Islam is what happened when a man with their attitude actually succeeded in taking over an area. Basically all political life ends up looking like that, forever. Now women seem to like this, as well as men when they're trying to impress women, but once you've learned enough objective knowledge to support yourself in a way that doesn't involve playing alpha games all day, it becomes a tedious exercise in futility, best avoided.

But if you consider this a horrible, horrible, insult, comparing Mohammed to a rap artist of all things, remember this:

Mohammed wrote many lines of verse, but I do not call him Mohammed the poet.

Mohammed won many wars, but I do not call him Mohammed the warlord.

But you screw one 9-year old girl, and anyone with an ounce of respectability is going to call you Mohammed the pedophile.

Basically what I keep in mind whenever someone tells me to 'respect' Islam. Bull. All perpetrators of unjust violence demand 'respect' and 'understanding' once you get them on the witness stand.

Cow Poke

February 19th 2012, 12:41 PM

Certainly not in my lifetime. But at least some of the unrest at the moment just may be a start.

Keep an eye on the muslim brotherhood and other wonderful civic organizations.

Cow Poke

February 19th 2012, 12:45 PM

So do the teachings of Jesus say that this is OK???? As usual you have failed to answer this question and many others.

And if you ask me if I stopped beating my wife, I won't bother answering that one, either. :shrug:

So your God of the Old Testament kills but your God of the New Testament doesn't kill!!!

Ananias and Sapphira. Does that make you happy?

You were the first to break away and not follow the discussion.

Cheers

And I'm trying to bring it back on topic, but you can't stand that...

Islam encourages/demands/allows/supports the murder of Christians and Jews.
Christianity (You DO realize Christianity is NEW TESTEMENT, yes?) forbids murder.

Do you understand the difference between murder and killing?

Nathan Poe

February 19th 2012, 01:09 PM

Do you understand the difference between murder and killing?

Easy -- "murder" is the one that isn't justified by the powers-that-be in a given society.

Epoetker

February 19th 2012, 04:07 PM

Easy -- "murder" is the one that isn't justified by the powers-that-be in a given society.

Because when you kill an armed intruder in your house, and Liberal Judge Turn 'em Loose Bruce convicts you of murder for it, therefore YOU'RE A MURDERER, BIGOT!

The first George Bush was right: Atheists really shouldn't be trusted as citizens, as their lack of an independent moral philosophy leads to complete dependence on government 'precedent.'

Nathan Poe

February 19th 2012, 05:23 PM

Because when you kill an armed intruder in your house, and Liberal Judge Turn 'em Loose Bruce convicts you of murder for it, therefore YOU'RE A MURDERER, BIGOT!

Do you have an actual case along these lines that you can post the specifics for, or are you just babbling?

The first George Bush was right: Atheists really shouldn't be trusted as citizens, as their lack of an independent moral philosophy leads to complete dependence on government 'precedent.'

And Biblical precedent is better? Not that you listen to it, anyway...

Cow Poke

February 19th 2012, 05:46 PM

Easy -- "murder" is the one that isn't justified by the powers-that-be in a given society.

Oh, you mean like "legal"? picky picky picky

pancreasman

February 19th 2012, 06:43 PM

To kill and to murder are two forms of the same irregular verb:

I KILL people for my beliefs

you MURDER people for your beliefs.

Simple really.

Epoetker

February 19th 2012, 10:36 PM

Do you have an actual case along these lines that you can post the specifics for, or are you just babbling?

You really shouldn't tempt me to give links. Try typing 'arrested for self-defense' into google (it's common enough to auto-fill, of course!)

As for 'imprisoned for self-defense', the first good result is, of course, in England, from a woman judge (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1461346/Five-years-in-prison-for-acting-in-self-defence.html):

Osborn decided that he could not face the risk of life imprisonment. "You see it in the paper," Osborn has said, "that bloke Tony Martin who shot the kid who was burgling his house. He went to prison for years. I didn't want to waste my life because [Halling] burst through the door. Why did he have to ruin my life?"

Tony Martin was convicted of murder after a jury rejected his claim that he had acted in self-defence when he shot dead a burglar who had broken into his isolated farm house. He was sentenced to life imprisonment. The Appeal Court decided to quash his conviction for murder and substitute one for manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility. Martin, who was jailed in April 2000, was freed in July 2003.

Osborn chose to plead guilty to manslaughter through provocation. He did not, however, receive a three-year sentence. At his sentencing hearing on April 21 at Woolwich Crown Court, Judge Shirley Anwyl decided that he should serve five years. He is now in Belmarsh Prison.

And Biblical precedent is better? Not that you listen to it, anyway...

Tchyeah, baby. Following Old Testament social organization enabled the Puritans to build the greatest nation on earth (http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/008683.html) from nothing but a bunch of religious fanatics and their families. Atheists have no such independent pioneers worth speaking of; they are entirely an outgrowth of civilization's luxuries and privileges. They stand as much a chance of meeting themselves in the wilderness as they do clearing it for a new civilization.

Cow Poke

February 19th 2012, 10:47 PM

To kill and to murder are two forms of the same irregular verb:

I KILL people for my beliefs

you MURDER people for your beliefs.

Simple really.

Well, hold on just a minute....

If a Christian sawed the head off a Muslim just because the Muslim was a Muslim, I don't know of a single Chrsitian Minister (outside of the nuts at Westboro Baptist Church) who would try to defend it as "killing" for our belief.

When a Muslim saws the head off a Christian just because the Christian is a Christian, Muslims dance in the streets.

Yeah, simple!

pancreasman

February 20th 2012, 12:49 AM

Well, hold on just a minute....

If a Christian sawed the head off a Muslim just because the Muslim was a Muslim, I don't know of a single Chrsitian Minister (outside of the nuts at Westboro Baptist Church) who would try to defend it as "killing" for our belief.

When a Muslim saws the head off a Christian just because the Christian is a Christian, Muslims dance in the streets.

Yeah, simple!

Not quite. I've been reading about Islam and it is certainly true the Koran does contain the verse you mention, there is the doctrine of abrogation, where earlier verses may be negated by those coming after it, or those more eternal in outlook.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam

Of course, just like Christianity, not all Muslims agree in practice about the extent to which certain verses still apply today. We need to remember that the Islamic Commission of Spain issued a fatwa against Osama Bin Laden:

The fatwa said that according to the Quran “the terrorist acts of Osama bin Laden and his organization al-Qaida … are totally banned and must be roundly condemned as part of Islam.”

It added: “Inasmuch as Osama bin Laden and his organization defend terrorism as legal and try to base it on the Quran … they are committing the crime of ‘istihlal’ and thus become apostates that should not be considered Muslims or treated as such.” The Arabic term ‘istihlal’ refers to the act of making up one’s own laws.

http://theislamicworkplace.com/2007/09/22/reminder-fatwa-issued-against-osama-bin-laden/

Thus a large proportion of the Islamic clerical and scholarly world did not exactly 'dance in the streets'. We probably shouldn't judge a religion by the actions of its worst adherents.

When I talk to Christians about apparently troublesome Bible verses I am frequently reminded that verses need to be understood in context, and not divorced from their cultural ground. We could be charitable and extend the same courtesy to the holy books of other faiths too.

http://www.al-islam.org/peace-jihad-in-islam/

Cow Poke

February 20th 2012, 12:53 AM

Not quite. I've been reading about Islam and it is certainly true the Koran does contain the verse you mention, there is the doctrine of abrogation, where earlier verses may be negated by those coming after it, or those more eternal in outlook.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam

Of course, just like Christianity, not all Muslims agree in practice about the extent to which certain verses still apply today. We need to remember that the Islamic Commission of Spain issued a fatwa against Osama Bin Laden:

http://theislamicworkplace.com/2007/09/22/reminder-fatwa-issued-against-osama-bin-laden/

Thus a large proportion of the Islamic clerical and scholarly world did not exactly 'dance in the streets'. We probably shouldn't judge a religion by the actions of its worst adherents.

When I talk to Christians about apparently troublesome Bible verses I am frequently reminded that verses need to be understood in context, and not divorced from their cultural ground. We could be charitable and extend the same courtesy to the holy books of other faiths too.

http://www.al-islam.org/peace-jihad-in-islam/

First of all, I didn't mention a verse.

Secondly, you're totally missing the point. There IS no parallel here.

Muslims DO saw the heads off of non-Muslims -- and Muslims DO dance in the streets when "the Great Satan" or the "Little Satan" suffer losses. and the Muslim Clerics do NOT enmasse condemn publicly the violence.

IF Christians did a similar thing - sawing the heads off muslims -- the VAST MAJORITY of Christian leaders would very clearly and loudly condemn the action.

MAJOR difference.

And you don't have to "read about Islam to see it" -- just watch the news.

Jedidiah

February 20th 2012, 01:46 AM

[QUOTE=pancreasman;3368487When I talk to Christians about apparently troublesome Bible verses I am frequently reminded that verses need to be understood in context, and not divorced from their cultural ground. We could be charitable and extend the same courtesy to the holy books of other faiths too.
[/QUOTE]

Can you point out the ameliorating context involved when "Muslims DO saw the heads off of non-Muslims -- and Muslims DO dance in the streets when "the Great Satan" or the "Little Satan" suffer losses. and the Muslim Clerics do NOT enmasse condemn publicly the violence." I don't see any such.

pancreasman

February 20th 2012, 02:58 AM

First of all, I didn't mention a verse.

Secondly, you're totally missing the point. There IS no parallel here.

Muslims DO saw the heads off of non-Muslims -- and Muslims DO dance in the streets when "the Great Satan" or the "Little Satan" suffer losses. and the Muslim Clerics do NOT enmasse condemn publicly the violence.

IF Christians did a similar thing - sawing the heads off muslims -- the VAST MAJORITY of Christian leaders would very clearly and loudly condemn the action.

MAJOR difference.

And you don't have to "read about Islam to see it" -- just watch the news.

Apologies. I have a dim and apparently faulty recollection of you quoting the Koranic verse about killing pagans.

I actually like to read about things as well as watch the news, I find it gives me a greater depth of understanding of complex issues. I'm sorry if that doesn't meet with your approval.

I wonder about talking about whole groups of people as a monolithic block. For example, the majority of Muslims in the world are not arabs. Secondly many Muslims and Muslim organizations do not support terrorism. What proportion of Islam do they represent? I don't know.

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Are some Muslims particularly nasty? Yep. Christianity has a 600 year head start on Islam as a developing culture. Christianity in the West has also had to react to the Enlightenment and growing individualism. I wonder is it fair to compare Islam today with Christianity today? Perhaps a better comparison might be Islam today compared to Christianity of 1400. Personally I think it's a very complex issue, one that involves a lot more than just one religion and another. Is that an excuse for terrorism or violence in the name of faith? Absolutely not. Does it mean that I not prejudge the Muslim Doctor who lives over the road? I think it might.

pancreasman

February 20th 2012, 03:01 AM

Can you point out the ameliorating context involved when "Muslims DO saw the heads off of non-Muslims -- and Muslims DO dance in the streets when "the Great Satan" or the "Little Satan" suffer losses. and the Muslim Clerics do NOT enmasse condemn publicly the violence." I don't see any such.

I was talking about taking single verses out of holy books not obviously repugnant actions as you describe them. I'm unclear as to what you mean by the rest of your question.

Cow Poke

February 20th 2012, 03:24 AM

Apologies. I have a dim and apparently faulty recollection of you quoting the Koranic verse about killing pagans.

It never happened.

I actually like to read about things as well as watch the news, I find it gives me a greater depth of understanding of complex issues. I'm sorry if that doesn't meet with your approval.

When what you read is in strark contrast to what is actually happening in the world, there's an obvious disconnect.

I wonder about talking about whole groups of people as a monolithic block.

Please demonstrate where I have done that. I have been very clear to say that their SCRIPTURE demands/condones/approves -- and I even indicated that it depends on interpretation, but there is clearly support for killing Christians and Jews. I would appreciate it, if you are going to debate me, to stick to what I have actually said.

For example, the majority of Muslims in the world are not arabs.

Who said they were?

Secondly many Muslims and Muslim organizations do not support terrorism.

Many Catholics do not support the ban on contraception? :shrug: Neither of those things have anything to do with the fact that Islam condones/supports/demands the murder of Christians, and Muslims who do this do so in the name of Allah.

What proportion of Islam do they represent? I don't know.

Totally irrelevant to the families of people who have been slaughterd in the name of Islam.

Are some Muslims particularly nasty? Yep.

Nasty? :doh: I think sawing somebody's head from their body qualifies for a little more than "nasty"

Christianity has a 600 year head start on Islam as a developing culture.

Oh, HERE WE GO with the "well, they did it too". The fact is that the New Testament does not instruct us to kill Muslims. PERIOD.

Christianity in the West has also had to react to the Enlightenment and growing individualism. I wonder is it fair to compare Islam today with Christianity today?

Christians who murder Muslims because the Muslims are Muslims are clearly NOT honoring New Testament Teachings.
Muslims who kill Christians ARE honoring Islamic beliefs.
What is it you can't understand about that?

Perhaps a better comparison might be Islam today compared to Christianity of 1400.

Why? Did the New Testament teach that we should kill Muslims wherever we found them in 1400? I'm thinking no.

Personally I think it's a very complex issue, one that involves a lot more than just one religion and another.

Well, ONE of them condones/demands/supports/allows the killing of the other, and the other does not!
What's so complex about that?

Is that an excuse for terrorism or violence in the name of faith? Absolutely not. Does it mean that I not prejudge the Muslim Doctor who lives over the road? I think it might.

Why do you try so hard to close your eyes to the fact that terrorism and violence and murder are part and parcel of Islam, even if BILLIONS of Muslims are silent about it? Why do you try so hard to equate New Testament Christianity with Islam when Christianity has ZERO justification for murdering people in the name of God?

You can kabuki dance all around this as much as you like, but you can't change the fact that Muslims can butcher people and MANY of their religious leaders approve/condone/support/allow/whatever......

If a Christian murders in the name of God, you'd be hard pressed to find a SINGLE Christian leader who amens it.

pancreasman

February 20th 2012, 04:07 AM

It never happened.

When what you read is in strark contrast to what is actually happening in the world, there's an obvious disconnect.

Please demonstrate where I have done that. I have been very clear to say that their SCRIPTURE demands/condones/approves -- and I even indicated that it depends on interpretation, but there is clearly support for killing Christians and Jews. I would appreciate it, if you are going to debate me, to stick to what I have actually said.

Who said they were?

Many Catholics do not support the ban on contraception? :shrug: Neither of those things have anything to do with the fact that Islam condones/supports/demands the murder of Christians, and Muslims who do this do so in the name of Allah.

Totally irrelevant to the families of people who have been slaughterd in the name of Islam.

Nasty? :doh: I think sawing somebody's head from their body qualifies for a little more than "nasty"

Oh, HERE WE GO with the "well, they did it too". The fact is that the New Testament does not instruct us to kill Muslims. PERIOD.

Christians who murder Muslims because the Muslims are Muslims are clearly NOT honoring New Testament Teachings.
Muslims who kill Christians ARE honoring Islamic beliefs.
What is it you can't understand about that?

Why? Did the New Testament teach that we should kill Muslims wherever we found them in 1400? I'm thinking no.

Well, ONE of them condones/demands/supports/allows the killing of the other, and the other does not!
What's so complex about that?

Why do you try so hard to close your eyes to the fact that terrorism and violence and murder are part and parcel of Islam, even if BILLIONS of Muslims are silent about it? Why do you try so hard to equate New Testament Christianity with Islam when Christianity has ZERO justification for murdering people in the name of God?

You can kabuki dance all around this as much as you like, but you can't change the fact that Muslims can butcher people and MANY of their religious leaders approve/condone/support/allow/whatever......

If a Christian murders in the name of God, you'd be hard pressed to find a SINGLE Christian leader who amens it.

I love it when you get mad. Your eyes sparkle so.

Cow Poke

February 20th 2012, 05:08 AM

I love it when you get mad. Your eyes sparkle so.

You're as bad at discerning that as you are at defending Muslims killing Chrisitians. :thumb:

Onceametho

February 20th 2012, 05:59 AM

And if you ask me if I stopped beating my wife, I won't bother answering that one, either. :shrug:

Ananias and Sapphira. Does that make you happy?

And I'm trying to bring it back on topic, but you can't stand that...

Islam encourages/demands/allows/supports the murder of Christians and Jews.
Christianity (You DO realize Christianity is NEW TESTEMENT, yes?) forbids murder.

Do you understand the difference between murder and killing?

Hi CP

And what you fail to understand throughout this thread sir, is that Muslims do not murder/kill just because their scriptures tell them so. Far from it! And anyone who believes this is extremely naive. Apparently, you have no idea of the many underlying factors. If all Muslims obeyed what you say they are taught, then I doubt if you would be alive today. I have said all along, that the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving people, with the utmost respect and tolerance for all. They may disagree in our beliefs as we do in theirs, but that did not and does not drive them to murder. Have you ever considered the deep seeded truths? That wonderful list you produced! Have you ever researched the reasons for such actions? Of-course you haven’t. Have you ever interacted/socialised with Muslim communities? Of-course you haven’t.

Yes, the level of violence in Islamic countries against Christians is on the rise. And I bet your bottom dollar, that if the Islamic scriptures did not “encourages/demands/allows/supports” as you put it, there would be virtually no difference in the state of affairs.

And you fail to answer many of my questions because you can’t stand the fact that your God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament and thus you disobey what your God tells you to do, Christian or not! And when I asked you if the “teachings of Jesus says it ok”, you fail to give an answer once again (only to come up with a useless phrase that had nothing to do with the question).

Read you Bible and come up with a list of who you should kill/murder. And please do not say you do not kill or murder because you are a Christian. You believe in the same God.... New and Old Testament, the God who demands that you kill homosexuals, anyone who hits their Mum and Dad, witches, non-believers, false prophets........................................................... Must be a different God..right!!!!!

Christians are not the only minority group to suffer in Islamic nations in the past and in the present.

Now, Cybelle has asked if we could discuss “what should we do”. So do it!

Cheers

pancreasman

February 20th 2012, 07:04 AM

You're as bad at discerning that as you are at defending Muslims killing Chrisitians. :thumb:

If you think I'm defending that then my opinion of your intelligence took a nasty tumble.

Onceametho

February 20th 2012, 07:28 AM

So now that we have amply established that christians are being killed because they are considered infidels. And since there is no further input from Muslims so far.

My next question is, what should we, christians in the West, do (or not do)

HI Cybelle,

Sorry, but I firmly believe that they do not murder Christians just because they are considered to be infidels. If they didn't considered Christians as infidels, then there would be little difference as other minority groups are persecuted as well. We simply do not hear as much about them in the "West" as they are not Christian.
As I have said before, the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving and tolerant. Fundamentalists/extremists in any religion/group/whatever are the problem. All they need is a "trigger" to set them off and the West has provided many over the decades.

What should we do? I'm afraid to say that I do not think there is much we can do. The horse has bolted as the saying goes especially after the actions of the "West" in Iraq and Afghanistan. I know this has had an effect, an example I will give later.
I wonder what would have happened if, at the "end" of "Desert Storm", the forces had not have stopped at the Iraqi boarder. Would it have been different if they had have continued into Iraq (a time when many of the Middle Eastern countries supported the Americans in driving Saddam out of Kuwait) instead of invading Iraq at a later date?

You may find this interesting as it may shed a bit of light on the way in which Muslims react. A colleague of mine (KD) spent several years working in Malaysia in the late 1990's and I in early 2000's. We found the Malays extremely friendly, being invited into their homes, discussing various aspects of religion and so on. Won't bore you with the details. After 9/11, KD had more work in Malaysia and found the atmosphere completely different. No more home invites. Contact was purely work related. And yet another colleague from New Zealand experienced no such change. New Zealand did not support the invasion if Iraq.

"Or not do" - Don't invade another country which only makes things worse. Pray hard to your God. Perhaps future generations will be wiser!

It's a pity that there has been no input from Muslims.

Thanks and cheers

Cow Poke

February 20th 2012, 10:06 AM

If you think I'm defending that then my opinion of your intelligence took a nasty tumble.

The thread is about Muslims killing Christians... when they do it, it is frequently quite barbaric.

Once again, their religion condones/supports/encourages/excuses this --- Christianity does not. And I honestly don't care what you think of my intelligence. :shrug:

Cow Poke

February 20th 2012, 10:18 AM

Hi CP

And what you fail to understand throughout this thread sir, is that Muslims do not murder/kill just because their scriptures tell them so.

So please enlighten me -- what justifies sawing somebody's head off?

Far from it! And anyone who believes this is extremely naive. Apparently, you have no idea of the many underlying factors.

Yuh :doh:

If all Muslims obeyed what you say they are taught, then I doubt if you would be alive today.

I don't need ALL Muslims to be murderers for me to be dead -- I think just one could accomplish that. :thumb:

I have said all along, that the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving people, with the utmost respect and tolerance for all.

I don't believe anybody stated or implied otherwise.

They may disagree in our beliefs as we do in theirs, but that did not and does not drive them to murder. Have you ever considered the deep seeded truths? That wonderful list you produced! Have you ever researched the reasons for such actions? Of-course you haven’t. Have you ever interacted/socialised with Muslim communities? Of-course you haven’t.

I think somebody loves himself. :grin:

Yes, the level of violence in Islamic countries against Christians is on the rise. And I bet your bottom dollar, that if the Islamic scriptures did not “encourages/demands/allows/supports” as you put it, there would be virtually no difference in the state of affairs.

Please inform me about honor killings. :doh: It's the West's fault, right?

And you fail to answer many of my questions because you can’t stand the fact that your God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament and thus you disobey what your God tells you to do, Christian or not!

I don't FAIL to answer your questions -- I choose not to! It's called the NEW Testament for a reason.

And when I asked you if the “teachings of Jesus says it ok”, you fail to give an answer once again (only to come up with a useless phrase that had nothing to do with the question).

It's a really stupid question -- Christians are not sawing the heads off of Muslims.

Read you Bible and come up with a list of who you should kill/murder. And please do not say you do not kill or murder because you are a Christian. You believe in the same God.... New and Old Testament, the God who demands that you kill homosexuals, anyone who hits their Mum and Dad, witches, non-believers, false prophets........................................................... Must be a different God..right!!!!!

You REALLY don't understand GRACE, do you? Christians don't do Old Testament sacrifices --- Jesus changed that. Along with a lot of other things. Please provide me a list of Christians in the Old Testament. :doh:

But all this is simply redirection from the OP, isn't it?

Christians are not the only minority group to suffer in Islamic nations in the past and in the present.

Now, Cybelle has asked if we could discuss “what should we do”. So do it!

You are hilarious! Shall I jump through hoops and sit up and beg, too? :lmbo:

Cow Poke

February 20th 2012, 11:09 AM

As I have said before, the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving and tolerant. Fundamentalists/extremists in any religion/group/whatever are the problem. All they need is a "trigger" to set them off and the West has provided many over the decades.

Why is that? What is there about Islam that causes this "trigger" to be so sensitive?

OK -- a couple of things....

As much as you would LOVE to tie Christianity to the Old Testament, it's a really silly game. Do you SEE any Christians killing homosexuals (your example)? And if a Christian did (and it does happen) is there ANY Christian leader who applauds it? You really don't understand the concept of NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANITY, do you? There's a reason we are called CHRISTIANS and not BIBLIANS. :smug:

The fact is ---- Christians live under a NEW COVENANT.

Perhaps that's what Islam needs --- a NEW TESAMENT! :grin:

Further, it has been documented that many of the same clerics who "denounce" the violence and terrorism used by "extremists" do so for Western consumption. To their own audience, they continue to make speeches inciting violence.

But I do appreciate your input.

Epoetker

February 20th 2012, 12:13 PM

Perhaps that's what Islam needs --- a NEW TESAMENT!

Sadly, it would have to square with the Koran, so no. New wineskins will not improve rotten wine.

What Islam needs is containment and/or destruction.

But implementing such a policy requires a level of cultural confidence in the West on a level last seen only in the Victorian era.
(http://www.scifiwright.com/2011/07/a-salute-to-steam-powered-cuteness/)
And it's definitely not going to come from the leftists,who are too busy tilting at Nazi windmills. (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2012/02/whose-enemy-whose-friend.html)

Nathan Poe

February 20th 2012, 12:36 PM

You really shouldn't tempt me to give links.

Or to speak in general.

Try typing 'arrested for self-defense' into google (it's common enough to auto-fill, of course!)

As for 'imprisoned for self-defense', the first good result is, of course, in England, from a woman judge (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1461346/Five-years-in-prison-for-acting-in-self-defence.html):

It would seem that you were so hung up on the "woman judge" part of this (why I'm not sure), that you neglected to read the part where self-defense never entered into it -- the man pled guilty to manslaughter. Guilty -- as in he admitted to committing a crime.

So this is a case, like many others, of a man getting bad advice from his lawyers. Probably should've told his story to the jury instead of the papers.

Tchyeah, baby. Following Old Testament social organization enabled the Puritans to build the greatest nation on earth (http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/008683.html) from nothing but a bunch of religious fanatics and their families. Atheists have no such independent pioneers worth speaking of; they are entirely an outgrowth of civilization's luxuries and privileges. They stand as much a chance of meeting themselves in the wilderness as they do clearing it for a new civilization.

if you're talking about Plymouth Rock and all that, only half of those settlers were Puritans -- did you think the rest were just sitting on their hands?

As for the "greatest nation on Earth," I would think a strong economy played a large role in that, and that had more to do with the Tobacco trade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_in_the_American_Colonies) at the time than anything else.

Cybelle Hawke

February 20th 2012, 02:42 PM

Seriously? I called him the world's first rap artist because his behavior is entirely consistent with the behavior of rap artists today. The only difference is that rap artists don't have near the power and organization that Mohammed had, so only their die-hard fans and groupies take them seriously enough to kill other fans, and even such feuds rarely go anywhere. Plus rap artists publicly mocking each other and calling each other out for the entertainment of the audience is a fine tradition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6H0i1RAdHk

The only conclusion one can come to when looking at the above is a hope that neither one of these two blowhards ever gets any real power over anything. Islam is what happened when a man with their attitude actually succeeded in taking over an area. Basically all political life ends up looking like that, forever. Now women seem to like this, as well as men when they're trying to impress women, but once you've learned enough objective knowledge to support yourself in a way that doesn't involve playing alpha games all day, it becomes a tedious exercise in futility, best avoided.

But if you consider this a horrible, horrible, insult, comparing Mohammed to a rap artist of all things, remember this:

Mohammed wrote many lines of verse, but I do not call him Mohammed the poet.

Mohammed won many wars, but I do not call him Mohammed the warlord.

But you screw one 9-year old girl, and anyone with an ounce of respectability is going to call you Mohammed the pedophile.

Basically what I keep in mind whenever someone tells me to 'respect' Islam. Bull. All perpetrators of unjust violence demand 'respect' and 'understanding' once you get them on the witness stand.

I have said it before, and am going to say it once more: save me your views on Mohammed as this is not the topic of this thread.

For your information: the topic of this thread is the killing and murdering of christians in muslim countries.

If you cannot think of anything which contributes to the issue at hand, then please abstain from posting on this thread.

Also if paedophilia disturbs you so much, then keep in mind that the biggest christian religious organization on this planet has been covering up a huge number of sexual abuse of young children committed worldwide by their clergy! I would be a little reluctant in attributing this sexual appetite uniquely to the islam.... still if you want to elaborate on this with muslims, start another thread as, just to make sure you understand, the topic of this thread is the murdering of christians.

Cerebrum123

February 20th 2012, 02:50 PM

There is something known as "stealth Jihad" ,and this is basically a parasitic attack rather than an outright direct physical assault. They move in ,they respect your laws ,and appear to be peaceful. This is only a facade though. Once they reach a certain population level (one of the big reasons for polygamy in Islam is lot's of kids) ,they then start to make more and more demands. They start asking for Sharia compliance ,they set up their own "no go zones" (as is happening in many places in Europe). Then once they have thoroughly infected the host society they take over.
Over in Denmark ,and other European nations more than half of all rape is committed by Muslims. Do you know why? Because basically if a woman isn't wearing a Burqa she is ASKING for it. This is the explanation given by Imams. Attacking ,raping ,killing etc. is all ok as long as the person isn't a Muslim (of your own group anyway. Sunni's view Shia's as fair game and vice-versa). It may be a small majority who actually follow the Muslim scriptures ,but it doesn't take a whole lot of people to do massive damage, especially in this day and age.
I sincerely pray that Iran doesn't get nukes. They won't be satisfied nuking one area ,they will nuke an entire country if they have to. They don't care as long as their deaths are a result of an attack on "infidels". If ANY Muslim majority nation gets that kind of power ,then EVERYONE is in serious danger ,especially Israel.
I don't understand why people can't understand the difference between a direct COMMAND to kill all who oppose you ,and people who do NOT follow a direct COMMAND NOT to do so(thou shalt not murder DOES still apply for Christians).
It appears that people are so obsessed with being PC that they don't recognize a legitimate threat when it's staring them in the face. I once tried to explain that Islam teaches these things ,but her response was this "all religions have problems with them". She tried to tell me some of these "problems" with Christian teaching ,but she obviously didn't know her subject matter(tried to claim that the Bible says that a woman who is raped has to marry her rapist,and some translations DO translate the passage wrongly in this way ,but it's not what the Hebrew originally meant).

Cybelle Hawke

February 20th 2012, 03:01 PM

Because when you kill an armed intruder in your house, and Liberal Judge Turn 'em Loose Bruce convicts you of murder for it, therefore YOU'RE A MURDERER, BIGOT!

The first George Bush was right: Atheists really shouldn't be trusted as citizens, as their lack of an independent moral philosophy leads to complete dependence on government 'precedent.'

How exactly do your words relate to the topic of this thread, which is the murdering of christians in muslim countries?

Cybelle Hawke

February 20th 2012, 03:16 PM

Nathan Poe

February 20th 2012, 03:23 PM

Nathan Poe

February 20th 2012, 03:30 PM

Why is that? What is there about Islam that causes this "trigger" to be so sensitive?

Better question: Is it a religious, cultural, or historical issue?

Consider that the history of the Middle East has long been one of war, conquest, colonization, and exploitation, is it any wonder that the people who live in it are just a slight bit twitchy?

OK -- a couple of things....

As much as you would LOVE to tie Christianity to the Old Testament, it's a really silly game. Do you SEE any Christians killing homosexuals (your example)? And if a Christian did (and it does happen) is there ANY Christian leader who applauds it? You really don't understand the concept of NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANITY, do you? There's a reason we are called CHRISTIANS and not BIBLIANS. :smug:

Actually, there are always a few fringe elements who applaud the murder of a Matthew Shepherd or a George Tiller -- but they're usually relegated to the fringe. Nevertheless, they exist.

The fact is ---- Christians live under a NEW COVENANT.

And what was wrong with the old one, hmmm?

Perhaps that's what Islam needs --- a NEW TESAMENT! :grin:

Perhaps if left to their own devices, they'll come up with one.

Further, it has been documented that many of the same clerics who "denounce" the violence and terrorism used by "extremists" do so for Western consumption. To their own audience, they continue to make speeches inciting violence.

Same here in the West.

Epoetker

February 20th 2012, 05:21 PM

Also if paedophilia disturbs you so much, then keep in mind that the biggest christian religious organization on this planet has been covering up a huge number of sexual abuse of young children committed worldwide by their clergy! I would be a little reluctant in attributing this sexual appetite uniquely to the islam.... still if you want to elaborate on this with muslims, start another thread as, just to make sure you understand, the topic of this thread is the murdering of christians.

Christians are murdered by Muslims because the person who wrote Islam's holy books was a gangster pedo who hated criticism, though in all fairness Mo wasn't gay, because he only went for underage girls. The incidences of homosexuality in Islam are directly related to its toleration of polygamy. Though Mohammed didn't participate in this, his toleration of polygamy enabled the situation.

Catholics have a problem with homosexual pedophilia that mainly targets young boys because they don't have enough trouble with homosexuality to kick gay priests out of the seminaries before they gain access to the altar boys. And there's that whole celibacy angle too.

So, is this a deliberate, organized effort (and if so, organized by who, specifically?) or is it simply a case of "we're in the majority now; majority rules?"

You don't need to organize anything except a consistent propaganda message within the schools and the home, preferably in a language common to your community. And the majority simply has to be localized, which is why Dearborn, Michigan, is now called 'Dearbornistan' (while Detroit is simply called "STAY THE HECK AWAY FROM HERE!")

At certain concentrations, the tipping point is reached when all the nice American neighbors suddenly realize the crazies are running the streets, so once a substantial minority is reached, it often turns to a majority-minority neighborhood from simple white flight. (See also: 'blockbusting,' where real estate agents anxious to make a quick buck move a ghetto family or three into a nice neighborhood, then profit handsomely off of the people suddenly willing to sell their house at cost.) Where one controls the majority of people on the ground, one's local laws become the law of your land as far as you're concerned. Then you have a base of operations from which to expand lobbying efforts, a free hand to teach the kids whatever you want them to learn, and an 'organized community' that can immediately start writing letters complaining about your oppression by the remaining suspicious native minorities to one's state councilmen and other representatives.

Community Organizing 101, subtitled: "The Worse, The Better."

self-defense never entered into it -- the man pled guilty to manslaughter. Guilty -- as in he admitted to committing a crime.

What wicked, lazy, immoral nonsense! So, you're saying that being legally railroaded into a plea bargain because telling the truth carries a strong risk of life imprisonment means that the man is "guilty of committing a crime!"

Come the collapse, I would have no trouble exiling you to the nearest Muslim ghetto, where you will learn a different brand of justice.

Sparko

February 20th 2012, 05:24 PM

Epo, respect Cybelle's request or you will be banned from this thread.

Any further attempts to derail it will be moderated

Cow Poke

February 20th 2012, 08:27 PM

Better question: Is it a religious, cultural, or historical issue?

Why is it better? Because you thought it up? :brood:

Consider that the history of the Middle East has long been one of war, conquest, colonization, and exploitation, is it any wonder that the people who live in it are just a slight bit twitchy?

Not all of them saw the heads off of journalists or "whoever" or kill their own women in barbaric ways because they were believed to be with another man.

Actually, there are always a few fringe elements who applaud the murder of a Matthew Shepherd or a George Tiller -- but they're usually relegated to the fringe. Nevertheless, they exist.

You're comparing what MIGHT be to what HAS happened.

And what was wrong with the old one, hmmm?

Who said anything was wrong with it?

Perhaps if left to their own devices, they'll come up with one.

Obama will become a conservative and host his own segment on Fox News first.

Same here in the West.

Same ... Muslim clerics saying things for western consumption and saying something totally different for home? Same what? Linkies, please.

Cerebrum123

February 20th 2012, 09:13 PM

Nathan Poe ,just take a look at what's going on over in Europe. Muslims are demanding Sharia compliance (and sometimes getting it too). These "Sharia no go zones" are basically like small Muslim only areas ,and are cut off from the rest of the society. We aren't that far along yet here in the USA yet as far as I know ,but they are trying to get laws passed so that they can govern themselves by Sharia law. It actually is like what you said about them being the majority ,and then they rule. I don't know about how organized they are ,but if it's anyone doing the organizing it would be the Mullah's and Imam's. First they get in peacefully ,then they ask for more and more privileges ,then they get enough numbers to take over. If "hate crimes" legislation passes ,they will be untouchable.

Cybelle ,I have to say that Mohammad's character actually does have an important stance on this thread. It's his character that they are supposed to be emulating when they do these things ,so knowing a few things about their inspiration helps understand WHY they do what they do. However I think that it's better just to point to a place where one can find these things out. Like a site that lists authentic hadith. Christians are inspired by Jesus much in the same way Muslims are inspired by Mohammed.

Nathan Poe

February 20th 2012, 09:49 PM

Why is it better? Because you thought it up? :brood:

No, "better" because the answer might lead to some thoughtful discussion -- assuming, of course, I'm not the only one interested in that sort of thing.

Not all of them saw the heads off of journalists or "whoever" or kill their own women in barbaric ways because they were believed to be with another man.

Agreed -- not all of them do. So what?

You're comparing what MIGHT be to what HAS happened.

No, there have been Christian leaders (admittedly, of small groups, but leaders nonetheless), who have applauded the murders of homosexuals, abortion providers, etc., but the majority of Christians who do not support such actions (not in public, anyway) are quick to dismiss them as kooks (in public, anyway). Nevertheless, such loons exist, despite your claim that they do not.

Who said anything was wrong with it?

Well, obviously it needed to be replaced... :teeth:
(If you haven't figured out that I'm messing with you on this one, I don't know what to tell you :shrug:)

Obama will become a conservative and host his own segment on Fox News first.

Your pessimism is duly noted, but even you have acknowledged my previous point -- that the entire region has been subjected to external political pressure for decades. I don't think it's too much of a leap to think that such constant meddling creates hostility; what do you expect to happen when you smack a hornet's nest with a stick?

What do you think would happen if that pressure was eased off? Maybe, just maybe, if you stop smacking the nest, the hornets calm down.

Same ... Muslim clerics saying things for western consumption and saying something totally different for home? Same what? Linkies, please.

tsk, tsk... you first.

Cow Poke

February 20th 2012, 09:59 PM

No, "better" because the answer might lead to some thoughtful discussion -- assuming, of course, I'm not the only one interested in that sort of thing.

Since we're talking about Islam, and the idea of Jihad comes from their Scripture, seems "religious" to me.

Agreed -- not all of them do. So what?

I thought you wanted thoughtful discussion. :brood:

No, there have been Christian leaders (admittedly, of small groups, but leaders nonetheless), who have applauded the murders of homosexuals, abortion providers, etc., but the majority of Christians who do not support such actions (not in public, anyway) are quick to dismiss them as kooks (in public, anyway). Nevertheless, such loons exist, despite your claim that they do not.

No, I've been careful to allow for the fact there ARE kooks who do kooky things in the name of God or Jesus, but they are RESOUNDLY discounted by Christianity. Abortion clinic murders, guys who say God told them to blow up California.. they're kooks.

How many Muslim clerics do you see loudly and clearly denouncing as kooks people who saw the heads off of non-Muslims, or killl their own daughters/wives/sisters because they were in public not totally veiled, or looked at another man, or were SUSPECTED of being with another man?

Well, obviously it needed to be replaced... :teeth:
(If you haven't figured out that I'm messing with you on this one, I don't know what to tell you :shrug:)

Hmmmmm.... I'm not sure I believe that. I kinda think you messed up here, but ... no matter.

Your pessimism is duly noted, but even you have acknowledged my previous point -- that the entire region has been subjected to external political pressure for decades. I don't think it's too much of a leap to think that such constant meddling creates hostility; what do you expect to happen when you smack a hornet's nest with a stick?

You're saying that Muslims are hornets? :lmbo:

What do you think would happen if that pressure was eased off? Maybe, just maybe, if you stop smacking the nest, the hornets calm down.

Yes, sure.. then the Sunnis and Shia can get back to killing each other. :shrug:

Nathan Poe

February 20th 2012, 10:04 PM

Nathan Poe ,just take a look at what's going on over in Europe. Muslims are demanding Sharia compliance (and sometimes getting it too).

I've heard the same thing -- What I'm not hearing is what to do about it that won't make the situations exponentially worse.

These "Sharia no go zones" are basically like small Muslim only areas ,and are cut off from the rest of the society.

After society (translation: the government) cuts them off. What did you think would happen when you stop enforcing your own laws in your own cities? The locals take over.

We aren't that far along yet here in the USA yet as far as I know ,but they are trying to get laws passed so that they can govern themselves by Sharia law.

Ever heard of Beth Din? What you're so afraid of has already been in America for quite some time.

Now, I'm not saying your fears aren't at least somewhat justified -- but I can't help but chuckle that you're worried about a bunch of religious kooks trying to force you to submit to their theocracy; welcome to my world.

It actually is like what you said about them being the majority ,and then they rule.

So what do you propose to do about that? How does one stop them from becoming the majority?

I don't know about how organized they are ,but if it's anyone doing the organizing it would be the Mullah's and Imam's. First they get in peacefully ,then they ask for more and more privileges ,then they get enough numbers to take over. If "hate crimes" legislation passes ,they will be untouchable.

And if the legislation doesn't pass, how do you propose to "touch" them?

Epoetker

February 21st 2012, 02:46 AM

I've heard the same thing -- What I'm not hearing is what to do about it that won't make the situations exponentially worse.

I would consider the situation better with far fewer Muslims in Europe. What do you consider worse?

After society (translation: the government) cuts them off. What did you think would happen when you stop enforcing your own laws in your own cities? The locals take over.

First of all, enforcing laws on people who have no intention of following the laws or assimilating to the culture is expensive, especially once they start co-opting the OWS liberals to write all their briefs and harangue all the police involved, enact speech codes to punish any native for saying anything 'insensitive' about the people in question, and in general use all the power of the multicult to make life as difficult as possible for those enforcing sensible regulations.

Ever heard of Beth Din? What you're so afraid of has already been in America for quite some time.

Except that the Orthodox Jews who use the Beth Din courts use them to settle civil cases, not criminal. Not that there aren't gross excesses by many Jews on account of their insular status and over-representation in the legal profession, but compared to sharia courts, it's small potatoes. Generally the Orthodox Jews don't engage in honor killings, first cousin marriage, or female genital mutilation, either.

Now, I'm not saying your fears aren't at least somewhat justified -- but I can't help but chuckle that you're worried about a bunch of religious kooks trying to force you to submit to their theocracy; welcome to my world.

You live in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood? Haven't seen them to be aggressive proselytizers, at least according to some people on another forum I know...

So what do you propose to do about that? How does one stop them from becoming the majority?

DEPORT THEM. Preferably before you have to start entertaining genocidal scenarios.

And if the legislation doesn't pass, how do you propose to "touch" them?

Fortunately, dealing with recalcitrant minorities is usually as easy as turning off the federal money spigot. Given Islam's parasitic nature, it's a reliable way of removing its malign influence. If your religion is truly inspirational within civilization and your desire to live in this country is for its own sake, you'll figure out a way to survive, as the Mormons did. Around 95% of the most troublesome minorities in America currently rely on some form of government assistance or government mandate to assist.

Onceametho

February 21st 2012, 06:17 AM

[QUOTE=Onceametho;3368571]HI Cybelle,

Oi Onceametho,

Sorry, but I firmly believe that they do not murder Christians just because they are considered to be infidels.
If they didn't considered Christians as infidels, then there would be little difference as other minority groups are persecuted as well.
We simply do not hear as much about them in the "West" as they are not Christian.

I am open to other reasons but you have to come up with documentation that sustains your ideas. I have posted about the situation of christians in Pakistan, Iraq and Afganistan so far and there is no sign that there is another reason than the mere fact of being christian and/or not wanting to convert to islam.

If you have other information as to the why these christians are being murdered, please feel free to submit the facts on this thread.

As I have said before, the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving and tolerant. Fundamentalists/extremists in any religion/group/whatever are the problem. All they need is a "trigger" to set them off and the West has provided many over the decades.

We do not know what is said by religous leaders in the local mosqs in muslim countries! We know that they are highly influential on religious, social and political issues and are considered an authority beyond questioning on religious education and behaviour.

Fact is, Islam religion allows killing and lying for the benefit of Allah and his prophet.

My point is, that it is not about the vast majority of muslims who are peace loving and tolerant, but the few who get 'inspired' by some verses of the Qu´ran fervently preached and commented upon by some imams.

Also the fact that these murderings stay unpunished is something that cannot be overlooked. So the question would then be, how come the vast majority of peace loving and tolerant muslims are not reacting?

Look forward to your reaction Onceamethod

Hi Cybelle,

I know that the reasons of many attacks on Christians in Islamic nations is seeded deep in history. One that you would be well aware of is the West's support for Israel and thus any link to the West (Christian) is deemed to also be supportive of Israel. One of the incidences following is an example - Example 2. Pakistan, Iraq and Afganistan have similar historical factors stretching back centuries. Similar to the conflicts in Northern Ireland between the Protestants and the Catholics, both supposedly Christian, but the historical factors became the overpowering "reason" for murder.

I take these incidences from the list that Cow Poke posted awhile ago. I chose three, one that is very close to home and thus I had my suspicions. There was no use in examining any more, although I suspect that if I did, the examples would support my argument and certainly not Cow Poke's.

Example 1.

Holland - Japan Air Lines Flight 404 1973. (Cow Poke's infamous list)

"The attack was a retaliation against Japan, for paying Israel some compensation following the Japanese red army attack ('Lod Massacre' (30 May 1972), and protesting against 'Imperialism'". Wikipedia

Nothing to do with Christianity. Extremely few Christians in Japan. SHAME ON YOU COW POKE

Example 2

Italy - Rome 1985. (Cow Poke's infamous list)

"June 14, 1985, Between Athens and Rome. Two Hizballah members hijacked a TWA flight en route to Rome from Athens and forced the pilot to fly to Beirut. The terrorists, believed to belong to Hizballah, asked for the release of members of the group Kuwait 17 and 700 Shi'ite prisoners held in Israeli and South Lebanese prisons. The eight crewmembers and 145 passengers were held for 17 days during which one of the hostages, Robert Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft returned to Beirut and the hostages were released. Later on, four Hizballah members were secretly indicted. One of them, the Hizballah senior officer Imad Mughniyah, was indicted in absentia." Wikipedia

Historical conflict between Israel and Islamic nations. Little to do with being infadels.

Example 3

Now this one's a ripper and roused my suspicions big time.

Australia - Sydney bombs 1982 (Cow Poke's infamous list)

"The Sydney Hilton bombing occurred on 13 February 1978, when a bomb exploded outside the Hilton Hotel in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. At the time the hotel was the site of the first Commonwealth Heads of Government Regional Meeting (CHOGRM), a regional off-shoot of the biennial meetings of the heads of government from across the Commonwealth of Nations. Two garbage men and one police officer were killed, with several others injured.
The perpetrators have never been found. Evidence that Australian security forces may have been responsible led to the New South Wales parliament unanimously calling for an inquiry in 1991[1] and 1995.[2] The Government of Australia vetoed any inquiry.
A coronial inquest was not held until four years later in 1982, although they are normally held within a few weeks. Stipendiary Magistrate Walsh found a prima facie case of murder against two members of Ananda Marga – Ross Dunn and Paul Alister (but not Tim Anderson) – based on evidence by Richard Seary, which was later discredited.[1]
The Hilton bombing charges against Dunn and Alister were soon dropped.[1] But Anderson, Dunn, and Alister had been convicted on different charges of conspiracy to murder Robert Cameron, Sydney leader of the Australian National Front.[5]

Ananda Marga, organizationally known as Ananda Marga Pracaraka Samgha (AMPS), meaning the samgha (organization) for the propagation of the marga (path) of ananda (bliss), is a social and spiritual movement[1] founded in Jamalpur, Bihar, India in 1955 by Shrii Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar (1921–1990).

Ánanda Márga followers describe Ánanda Márga as a practical philosophy for personal development,social service and all around transformation of society. Through its meditation centres and service projects around the world, Ananda Marga offers instruction in meditation, yoga and other self-development practices on a non-commercial basis." Wikipedia

This has nothing to do with Muslims killing Christians. SHAME ON YOU CP.

Cow Poke simply looked at a convenient website, thought it looked good and posted without research. This discredits anything he posts.

I do not generally disagree with you Cybelle. It is unfortunate that the silent majority do nothing. That happens in any nation until the silent majority has had enough. We are seeing some of this in Syria at the moment as has happened in Egypt and Libya. But I have also said before, that thank goodness for a silent majority for if we were all extremists, the world would not be as good as it is.

Do you have any thoughts on what can be done to stop the murders/killings on both sides of the fence?

Cheers

Onceametho

February 21st 2012, 06:38 AM

Hi Cow Poke

You really don't understand the concept of NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANITY, do you? There's a reason we are called CHRISTIANS and not BIBLIANS. :smug:

And in every Christian church across your nation, from the pulpit is preached the words of the Old Testament and therein lies your hypocrisy. Or-course, the words are chosen very carefully because one dares not tell the children that God orders to kill.

You say that your God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I say that this means that the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament.
You infer that you only follow the God of the New Testament.
I say this is the same God.
You just can't stand it , can you.

Oh! By the way. You didn't do much research on the list that you flogged from the Internet, did you? Please refer to later post if you wish!

Cheers

Onceametho

February 21st 2012, 06:40 AM

I have said it before, and am going to say it once more: save me your views on Mohammed as this is not the topic of this thread.

For your information: the topic of this thread is the killing and murdering of christians in muslim countries.

If you cannot think of anything which contributes to the issue at hand, then please abstain from posting on this thread.

Also if paedophilia disturbs you so much, then keep in mind that the biggest christian religious organization on this planet has been covering up a huge number of sexual abuse of young children committed worldwide by their clergy! I would be a little reluctant in attributing this sexual appetite uniquely to the islam.... still if you want to elaborate on this with muslims, start another thread as, just to make sure you understand, the topic of this thread is the murdering of christians.

Well said Cybelle.

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 08:22 AM

Hi Cow Poke

And in every Christian church across your nation, from the pulpit is preached the words of the Old Testament and therein lies your hypocrisy. Or-course, the words are chosen very carefully because one dares not tell the children that God orders to kill.

You're really demonstrating your ignorance. The Old Testament is the platform on which the New Testament was built. There are tons of foundational truths, but there are obvious differences. Jesus BECAME the scacrifice once and for all. In the Old Testament, sin was "carried over" to the next year, where atonement was made annually. When Jesus came, He ended that system.

You say that your God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

I say it because the Bible says it.

I say that this means that the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament.

God is the same, yes.

You infer that you only follow the God of the New Testament.

You might want to study the word "infer". And your inference is a flat out untruth. He is the same God.

I say this is the same God.

He is, yes. Who's on first? :grin:

You just can't stand it , can you.

Well, it bothers me a little that you're wallowing in your ignorance, and trying to force God to behave the way YOU want Him to, and not quite sharp enough to allow for the fact that God can be the SAME but ACT differently when He chooses to do so. Sending His Son as the propitiation for our sin was His choice.

How long are you going to continue kabuki dancing and diverting from the fact that the God of Islam is WAY different from the God of the Bible.
Here, let me help you....

God loved us so much that He sent His Son to die for us.
Allah loved himself so much that he sends OTHER peoples' sons to die for HIM.

Oh! By the way. You didn't do much research on the list that you flogged from the Internet, did you? Please refer to later post if you wish!

Cheers

Why - more diversion?

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 08:28 AM

[QUOTE=Cybelle Hawke;3368728]

Hi Cybelle,

I know that the reasons of many attacks on Christians in Islamic nations is seeded deep in history. One that you would be well aware of is the West's support for Israel and thus any link to the West (Christian) is deemed to also be supportive of Israel. One of the incidences following is an example - Example 2. Pakistan, Iraq and Afganistan have similar historical factors stretching back centuries. Similar to the conflicts in Northern Ireland between the Protestants and the Catholics, both supposedly Christian, but the historical factors became the overpowering "reason" for murder.

I take these incidences from the list that Cow Poke posted awhile ago. I chose three, one that is very close to home and thus I had my suspicions. There was no use in examining any more, although I suspect that if I did, the examples would support my argument and certainly not Cow Poke's.

Example 1.

Holland - Japan Air Lines Flight 404 1973. (Cow Poke's infamous list)

"The attack was a retaliation against Japan, for paying Israel some compensation following the Japanese red army attack ('Lod Massacre' (30 May 1972), and protesting against 'Imperialism'". Wikipedia

Nothing to do with Christianity. Extremely few Christians in Japan. SHAME ON YOU COW POKE

Example 2

Italy - Rome 1985. (Cow Poke's infamous list)

"June 14, 1985, Between Athens and Rome. Two Hizballah members hijacked a TWA flight en route to Rome from Athens and forced the pilot to fly to Beirut. The terrorists, believed to belong to Hizballah, asked for the release of members of the group Kuwait 17 and 700 Shi'ite prisoners held in Israeli and South Lebanese prisons. The eight crewmembers and 145 passengers were held for 17 days during which one of the hostages, Robert Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft returned to Beirut and the hostages were released. Later on, four Hizballah members were secretly indicted. One of them, the Hizballah senior officer Imad Mughniyah, was indicted in absentia." Wikipedia

Historical conflict between Israel and Islamic nations. Little to do with being infadels.

Example 3

Now this one's a ripper and roused my suspicions big time.

Australia - Sydney bombs 1982 (Cow Poke's infamous list)

"The Sydney Hilton bombing occurred on 13 February 1978, when a bomb exploded outside the Hilton Hotel in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. At the time the hotel was the site of the first Commonwealth Heads of Government Regional Meeting (CHOGRM), a regional off-shoot of the biennial meetings of the heads of government from across the Commonwealth of Nations. Two garbage men and one police officer were killed, with several others injured.
The perpetrators have never been found. Evidence that Australian security forces may have been responsible led to the New South Wales parliament unanimously calling for an inquiry in 1991[1] and 1995.[2] The Government of Australia vetoed any inquiry.
A coronial inquest was not held until four years later in 1982, although they are normally held within a few weeks. Stipendiary Magistrate Walsh found a prima facie case of murder against two members of Ananda Marga – Ross Dunn and Paul Alister (but not Tim Anderson) – based on evidence by Richard Seary, which was later discredited.[1]
The Hilton bombing charges against Dunn and Alister were soon dropped.[1] But Anderson, Dunn, and Alister had been convicted on different charges of conspiracy to murder Robert Cameron, Sydney leader of the Australian National Front.[5]

Ananda Marga, organizationally known as Ananda Marga Pracaraka Samgha (AMPS), meaning the samgha (organization) for the propagation of the marga (path) of ananda (bliss), is a social and spiritual movement[1] founded in Jamalpur, Bihar, India in 1955 by Shrii Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar (1921–1990).

Ánanda Márga followers describe Ánanda Márga as a practical philosophy for personal development,social service and all around transformation of society. Through its meditation centres and service projects around the world, Ananda Marga offers instruction in meditation, yoga and other self-development practices on a non-commercial basis." Wikipedia

This has nothing to do with Muslims killing Christians. SHAME ON YOU CP.

Cow Poke simply looked at a convenient website, thought it looked good and posted without research. This discredits anything he posts.

I do not generally disagree with you Cybelle. It is unfortunate that the silent majority do nothing. That happens in any nation until the silent majority has had enough. We are seeing some of this in Syria at the moment as has happened in Egypt and Libya. But I have also said before, that thank goodness for a silent majority for if we were all extremists, the world would not be as good as it is.

Do you have any thoughts on what can be done to stop the murders/killings on both sides of the fence?

Cheers

I never said, nor implied, that there were not other factors.
Please feel free to continue the kabuki dancing.

And, unless I missed it, you kinda keep avoiding the honor killing aspect of this peaceful religion.

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 08:36 AM

I would consider the situation better with far fewer Muslims in Europe. What do you consider worse?

Your idea for getting rid of them -- whatever it may be.

First of all, enforcing laws on people who have no intention of following the laws or assimilating to the culture is expensive, especially once they start co-opting the OWS liberals to write all their briefs and harangue all the police involved, enact speech codes to punish any native for saying anything 'insensitive' about the people in question, and in general use all the power of the multicult to make life as difficult as possible for those enforcing sensible regulations.

So, you don't want to enforce the laws because that actually involves money and effort -- and the rest is just a tirade against liberals.

Meanwhile, I can't wait to hear your idea of what you consider "sensible" regulations...

Except that the Orthodox Jews who use the Beth Din courts use them to settle civil cases, not criminal. Not that there aren't gross excesses by many Jews on account of their insular status and over-representation in the legal profession, but compared to sharia courts, it's small potatoes.

So far -- but you don't have any problems letting it run unchecked.

As for criminal matters, what did you expect would happen when civil authorities (police, etc.,) give up? Leave people to their own devices, and they'll govern themselves... their own way.

Generally the Orthodox Jews don't engage in honor killings, first cousin marriage, or female genital mutilation, either.

Generally those things vary from culture to culture -- for example, first cousin marriage is already legal in over 20 states (mostly in the South, if that means anything to you)

You live in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood? Haven't seen them to be aggressive proselytizers, at least according to some people on another forum I know...

Nah, I live in a predominantly Middle Eastern neighborhood -- nicest people I ever met.

Of course, the evangelical town I used to live in was a different story -- people who skipped church tended to get their tires slashed.

DEPORT THEM. Preferably before you have to start entertaining genocidal scenarios.

Deportation requires them being in the country illegally -- do you have a crime in mind, or do you propose to make one up?

And who are you kidding? Even money you're already "entertaining genocidal scenarios."

Fortunately, dealing with recalcitrant minorities is usually as easy as turning off the federal money spigot. Given Islam's parasitic nature, it's a reliable way of removing its malign influence. If your religion is truly inspirational within civilization and your desire to live in this country is for its own sake, you'll figure out a way to survive, as the Mormons did. Around 95% of the most troublesome minorities in America currently rely on some form of government assistance or government mandate to assist.

So why stop at Muslims? Why not clear out the other "troublesome minorities" while you're at it?

Of course, most of them have been here long enough to be in their second or even third generation in the US, so "DEPORT THEM" isn't much of a plan... but I suspect you've been entertaining an alternate solution, haven't you?

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 08:42 AM

So, you don't want to enforce the laws because that actually involves money and effort -- and the rest is just a tirade against liberals.

As a former law enforcement officer with a lot of training in this area, unfortunately, there are some situations that are assessed to be beyond "policing", and "containment" becomes the strategy. An example is a rock concert, where large concentrations of people flagrantly (and fragrantly :lmbo:) violate the law.

The riots in the UK and France are examples where police do not enter neighborhoods where Muslims are concentrated in population and viciously attack any police elements that attempt to enter.

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 08:51 AM

And, unless I missed it, you kinda keep avoiding the honor killing aspect of this peaceful religion.

Because it's a cultural (not religious) issue -- And hardly limited to Muslim cultures:

Haiti: Article 269 of the penal code states "in the case of adultery as provided for in Article 284, the murder by a husband of his wife and/or her partner, immediately upon discovering them in flagrante delicto in the conjugal abode, is to be pardoned."

Brazil: until 1991 wife killings were considered to be non-criminal 'honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives.

Colombia: until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery.

And these are just the ones that were (or still are, in the case of Haiti) legally on the books. So you see, it happens everywhere, and not nearly as much as you think: The estimate is that about 5,000 women a year are victims of honor killings worldwide. You're more likely to be the victim of a gay-bashing attack than to meet a family with an honor killing in its past.

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 08:55 AM

Because it's a cultural (not religious) issue -- And hardly limited to Muslim cultures:

Haiti: Article 269 of the penal code states "in the case of adultery as provided for in Article 284, the murder by a husband of his wife and/or her partner, immediately upon discovering them in flagrante delicto in the conjugal abode, is to be pardoned."

Brazil: until 1991 wife killings were considered to be non-criminal 'honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives.

Colombia: until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery.

And these are just the ones that were (or still are, in the case of Haiti) legally on the books. So you see, it happens everywhere, and not nearly as much as you think: The estimate is that about 5,000 women a year are victims of honor killings worldwide. You're more likely to be the victim of a gay-bashing attack than to meet a family with an honor killing in its past.

At least YOU addressed it! :smile:

Seriously, are you saying that Islam does not teach this? (not a trick question - I don't pretend to know the answer)

EDIT: Hmmm... that's dealing with ADULTERY -- I'm talking about (and specifically mentioned) the butchering of women if they even LOOKED at another man, or shamed their husband/brother/father/whoever in any way.

Please note, as defined by wiki, that honor killing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing) includes PERCEIVED dishonoring of the family.

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 09:17 AM

At least YOU addressed it! :smile:

Seriously, are you saying that Islam does not teach this? (not a trick question - I don't pretend to know the answer)

Yes, I am saying saying that Islam doesn't teach it -- there is no specific reference in the Quran or any hadith ordering or condoning honor killings (unlike the OT, I should mention, but luckily, it's one of those parts you don't follow anymore)

Now, indirectly, it's possible to interpret the Quran's position on women (which isn't very encouraging, but then again, neither is the OT) to condone it, but again, that's indirect, and more of a cultural thing: A woman who somehow loses her sense of shame or modesty (I believe the term commonly used is "arwah," but that's a loose translation) brings shame on their family -- a shame which can only be removed by removing the woman from the family.

Normally, "removing" the woman can be as simple as disowning her (much in the same way a loving Christian couple will disown their gay son and boot him out of the house), but in a region of the world where war and violent death have a long history, some people choose a more permanent, and more familiar, extreme.

EDIT: Hmmm... that's dealing with ADULTERY -- I'm talking about (and specifically mentioned) the butchering of women if they even LOOKED at another man, or shamed their husband/brother/father/whoever in any way.

Are you saying that adultery does not shame the husband/family -- or do you think murder is justified in that particular case? You might be closer to the "honor killing" culture than you think; it's just a matter of scale.

Please note, as defined by wiki, that honor killing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing) includes PERCEIVED dishonoring of the family.

Perceived where? Honor killings happen all over the world, so there's no standard burden of proof -- it depends on the family, doesn't it?

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 09:25 AM

Yes, I am saying saying that Islam doesn't teach it -- there is no specific reference in the Quran or any hadith ordering or condoning honor killings (unlike the OT, I should mention, but luckily, it's one of those parts you don't follow anymore)

Honor killing is NOT taught in the Old Testament. Please show the chapter and verse where I am justified in killing my wife or daughter if I PERCEIVE that they dishonored me or my family. :doh:

Now, indirectly, it's possible to interpret the Quran's position on women (which isn't very encouraging, but then again, neither is the OT) to condone it, but again, that's indirect, and more of a cultural thing: A woman who somehow loses her sense of shame or modesty (I believe the term commonly used is "arwah," but that's a loose translation) brings shame on their family -- a shame which can only be removed by removing the woman from the family.

"removing" her from the family. Sheeeeeesh! How DELICATELY you treat Islam's "cultural thing" while grossly exaggerating the OT position.

Normally, "removing" the woman can be as simple as disowning her (much in the same way a loving Christian couple will disown their gay son and boot him out of the house), but in a region of the world where war and violent death have a long history, some people choose a more permanent, and more familiar, extreme.

Yes, they BUTCHER her. If a loving Christian couple BUTCHERED their gay son, I'm sure you'd see that as justified. :doh:

Are you saying that adultery does not shame the husband/family -- or do you think murder is justified in that particular case? You might be closer to the "honor killing" culture than you think; it's just a matter of scale.

Wow. So, the only way you can equate Islam and Christianity is by taking the very WORST case scenario of the OT, and comparing it with what Islam does TODAY. :thumb:

Perceived where? Honor killings happen all over the world, so there's no standard burden of proof -- it depends on the family, doesn't it?

Yeah, Nathan, that's it... it's all the BUTCHERED girl's fault for being born in the wrong family. :doh:

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 09:36 AM

As a former law enforcement officer with a lot of training in this area, unfortunately, there are some situations that are assessed to be beyond "policing", and "containment" becomes the strategy. An example is a rock concert, where large concentrations of people flagrantly (and fragrantly :lmbo:) violate the law.

The riots in the UK and France are examples where police do not enter neighborhoods where Muslims are concentrated in population and viciously attack any police elements that attempt to enter.

I can think of plenty of neighborhoods in the US the police don't bother with anymore -- religion has nothing to do with it.

Given a growing population (not what you're going to see at a rock concert), one would think that "containment" isn't a viable long term option -- but what's the alternative?

Epoekter was suggesting deportation -- but even if he had a legal leg to stand on, you've shown that that ship has already sailed.

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 09:49 AM

I can think of plenty of neighborhoods in the US the police don't bother with anymore --

plenty, eh? Where the police do not enter AT ALL?

religion has nothing to do with it.

:huh: Didn't claim it did.

Given a growing population (not what you're going to see at a rock concert)

you missed Woodstock, eh? Bummer. :grin:

one would think that "containment" isn't a viable long term option

It's not.

-- but what's the alternative?

Maybe you could allow them to police themselves! It works great for OCCUPY! :outtie:

Epoekter was suggesting deportation -- but even if he had a legal leg to stand on, you've shown that that ship has already sailed.

I gave an example of when it is necessary, or expedient, from a police position to "contain" rather than "police". And, as you noted, my example was a temporary crisis. The Muslim slums of the UK and France, for example, are much more poermanent. I don't know the solution -- but it's certainly worth learning from "history".

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 09:49 AM

Honor killing is NOT taught in the Old Testament. Please show the chapter and verse where I am justified in killing my wife or daughter if I PERCEIVE that they dishonored me or my family. :doh:

Deuteronomy 22:23-24. Apparently it's impossible to be raped in the city -- the perception is that you wanted it, so you must die.

Now, find something similar in the Quran.

Of course, the definition of Honor Killing is a lot broader than what you're asking for, but you already knew that, didn't you?

Then there's the shame of disobedient children...

"removing" her from the family. Sheeeeeesh! How DELICATELY you treat Islam's "cultural thing" while grossly exaggerating the OT position.

I told you, it's not Islam, it's the culture -- find the verse in the Quran that shows otherwise.

Yes, they BUTCHER her. If a loving Christian couple BUTCHERED their gay son, I'm sure you'd see that as justified. :doh:

I don't find any kind of murder justified, but you might.

I do, however, making sure the blame goes where it belongs -- on the people responsible.

You, on the other hand, want to use religion as an excuse to relieve people of personal responsibility -- "Islam" made them kill, so dealing with "Islam" will be your justification for dealing with them.

Wow. So, the only way you can equate Islam and Christianity is by taking the very WORST case scenario of the OT, and comparing it with what Islam does TODAY. :thumb:

You still haven't shown it to be Islam -- find me the verses in their religion which order, condone, or even justify this.

I've shown you in black and white where the Bible explicitly orders the murder of loose women and dishonorable children -- your turn, cowpoke.

Yeah, Nathan, that's it... it's all the BUTCHERED girl's fault for being born in the wrong family. :doh:

Actually, that's it exactly -- in a culture that won't let them get away with murder, they're simply disowned. But those stories don't push anyone's panic button, does it?

Don't pretend to care about them -- it doesn't come naturally to you.

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 09:53 AM

Don't pretend to care about them -- it doesn't come naturally to you.

Yeah, Nathan, that's why I've spent the past 40 some years in Ministry, MOST of which was in Churches where I knew they didn't have money to pay me, so I worked in the oilfield ministering to "oilfield trash", earning my livelihood outside the Church.

:doh:

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 10:01 AM

plenty, eh? Where the police do not enter AT ALL?

So the police do nothing, and people act shocked when the people take matters into their own hands. Boo Hoo.

:huh: Didn't claim it did.

We'll see how long that lasts.

you missed Woodstock, eh? Bummer. :grin:

Little before my time -- but in all fairness, Woodstock only rose by 2 (four births; two deaths; net gain of 2), and those kids were obviously conceived elsewhere.

Now, no doubt hundreds of children were conceived at Woodstock, but that's another story.

It's not.

And Europe is learning that the hard way -- When you do nothing for long enough, you have no one to blame but yourself when the area goes down the toilet.

We can learn a lot from their mistakes, assuming we're smart enough not to repeat them.

Maybe you could allow them to police themselves! It works great for OCCUPY! :outtie:

Or maybe we can get the police to actually do their jobs? It worked even better for OCCUPY. :outtie:

I gave an example of when it is necessary, or expedient, from a police position to "contain" rather than "police". And, as you noted, my example was a temporary crisis. The Muslim slums of the UK and France, for example, are much more poermanent. I don't know the solution -- but it's certainly worth learning from "history".

Right -- and history shows us that abandoning the slums in the name of "containment" doesn't work. Out of sight only stays out of mind for so long.

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 10:03 AM

Yeah, Nathan, that's why I've spent the past 40 some years in Ministry, MOST of which was in Churches where I knew they didn't have money to pay me, so I worked in the oilfield ministering to "oilfield trash", earning my livelihood outside the Church.

:doh:

Christian "oilfield trash," of course. I never said you didn't care about anybody.

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 10:04 AM

Christian "oilfield trash," of course. I never said you didn't care about anybody.

If you knew anything about the oilfield, this is what they call themselves. :doh: You really are a case! I am "oilfield trash (http://www.oilfieldtrash.com/)", which is one of the reasons I can minister to them effectively.

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 02:07 PM

If you knew anything about the oilfield, this is what they call themselves. :doh:

I'm just using your own words -- I meant it in the same spirit you did.

You really are a case!

I do hope it's a case of scotch -- I've got a party to go to this weekend... :teeth:

I am "oilfield trash (http://www.oilfieldtrash.com/)", which is one of the reasons I can minister to them effectively.

Indeed -- common background, common culture.

You want to help people -- so do I; so do most people. The differences, of course, stem from how to help them and where one draws the line -- you can't save them all; as you've shown, even the police make a decision on who to write off.

Looks to me like the UK and French police made a bad decision, and now the price is being paid. Conservatives can call it something sinister like "creeping sharia" or stealth jihad," but I prefer simply, "deregulation"; take away the police, and the people police themselves.

Cerebrum123

February 21st 2012, 02:18 PM

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 03:28 PM

I'm just using your own words -- I meant it in the same spirit you did.

Why do I find that a little hard to believe? :glare:

You want to help people -- so do I; so do most people.

Well, except I just don't "want" to -- I'm doing it. :shrug:

The differences, of course, stem from how to help them and where one draws the line -- you can't save them all; as you've shown, even the police make a decision on who to write off.

There are plenty who are willing to be helped, and I'd rather err on the side of trying and failing than not trying at all.

Looks to me like the UK and French police made a bad decision, and now the price is being paid. Conservatives can call it something sinister like "creeping sharia" or stealth jihad," but I prefer simply, "deregulation"; take away the police, and the people police themselves.

Hmmmm... I bet you call terrorism "man made disaster". :smug:

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 03:34 PM

Nathan Poe here's a little info about "honor" killing. "Honor" killing isn't in the Quran ,but it is enabled by Sharia. There is no penalty under Sharia law for killing your children ,or even grandchildren. Yes it happens in other cultures ,but it's close to 40 to 1 Muslims being the major perpetrator. Many (not all)of the cultures that do practice it were actually ruled by Muslims for a period of time ,and likely picked up this practice from their one time rulers.
Also Muslims don't ONLY follow the Quran (although there are some who say that only the Quran is valid). They also follow the Hadith (sayings of Mohammed),and Sira (Mohammed's biography). These things need to be taken into account as well ,as they helped with the formation of Sharia law.

Thanks, C --- that's why I refer to "their Scripture" rather than name a specific book... and many of their clerics tend to make up the rules as they go.

As for your reference of Deuteronomy ,I have some news for you. Most of the cities then were very small ,and if anyone yells then you are going to hear it. If she didn't yell out this was a sign that she wasn't being raped. Again some things have changed since OT times(the Ten Commandments are still valid).
As for the stoning of disobedient children ,do your homework. It's not like they are killing a little kid for not doing their chores. Again things are somewhat different now under the New Covenant. I believe CP has already explained that to you though.

But Nathan's rant only works if he can take the absolute worst case scenario from the OT and compare it to the most moderate of Muslims.

Those police don't go in those areas ,because they are AFRAID to go in those areas.

I like to think of it in terms of wisdom instead of fear. :grin: But, yes, cops don't get paid enough to get hurt real bad wading into crowds where things will get ugly and they'll end up on the nightly news as abusing peaceful protesters.

It's like I said before ,they move in at first in small numbers peacefully ,then once they get large enough in numbers they begin to take over. It's been a strategy ever since Mohammed himself. He did it with Medina ,and Muslims have been following his "sunna" ever since.

And the whole key is non-integration. They are not coming here to be part of the "melting pot". TRUE, there are Muslims who DO integrate into our society quite well --- my middle sister married one, and he's a great guy, and it causes him great consternation to to see the distortion of what he believed was a peaceful religion. That's partly why he converted to Christianity. :smug:

Jedidiah

February 21st 2012, 05:45 PM

And in every Christian church across your nation, from the pulpit is preached the words of the Old Testament and therein lies your hypocrisy. Or-course, the words are chosen very carefully because one dares not tell the children that God orders to kill.

You say that your God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I say that this means that the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament.
You infer that you only follow the God of the New Testament.
I say this is the same God.
You just can't stand it , can you.

Well, I can understand one thing from your post. You haven't the foggiest idea of what Christianity is.

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 08:08 PM

Thanks, C --- that's why I refer to "their Scripture" rather than name a specific book... and many of their clerics tend to make up the rules as they go.

And neither the Hadiths nor the Sira require, order, or condone honor killings -- no matter what you consider "their scripture," it's simply not in there.

As for "making up the rules as they go," well, if a Christian did that, you wouldn't call them much of a Christian, would you?

But Nathan's rant only works if he can take the absolute worst case scenario from the OT and compare it to the most moderate of Muslims.

So your position is that the most moderate of Muslims do honor killings?

I like to think of it in terms of wisdom instead of fear. :grin: But, yes, cops don't get paid enough to get hurt real bad wading into crowds where things will get ugly and they'll end up on the nightly news as abusing peaceful protesters.

Well then Boo Hoo. If they wanted to be heroes, they should've been firemen. Cops are paid and trained to go into dangerous situations and keep the peace -- if they refuse to do their job, who do you think is going to do it for them?

And the whole key is non-integration. They are not coming here to be part of the "melting pot".

Agreed, that's a big part of the problem -- now we need a solution.

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 08:12 PM

Why do I find that a little hard to believe? :glare:

Dunno -- but they're your words; don't use them if you don't want them repeated.

Well, except I just don't "want" to -- I'm doing it. :shrug:

As am I -- we're on the same side here; you might have a hard time believing that, as well.

There are plenty who are willing to be helped, and I'd rather err on the side of trying and failing than not trying at all.

As would I -- which is why, not unlike yourself, I do what I do in a predominantly poor neighborhood, helping those who much of society has already written off.

(I'm a schoolteacher, in case I didn't mention that before)

Hmmmm... I bet you call terrorism "man made disaster". :smug:

I usually prefer "politically-motivated atrocity." Your term neglects the motivation behind the event.

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 08:18 PM

Dunno -- but they're your words; don't use them if you don't want them repeated.

That's just plain ignorant, Nathan. I think YOU thought "oilfield trash" was a derogatory term.... but whatever!

As am I -- we're on the same side here; you might have a hard time believing that, as well.

Stranger things have happened.

As would I -- which is why, not unlike yourself, I do what I do in a predominantly poor neighborhood, helping those who much of society has already written off.

(I'm a schoolteacher, in case I didn't mention that before)

OH, are kids are in trouble! :shocked: (kidding, I hope)

I usually prefer "politically-motivated atrocity." Your term neglects the motivation behind the event.

So, the Twin Towers event --- does not qualify as terrorism?

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 08:33 PM

And neither the Hadiths nor the Sira require, order, or condone honor killings -- no matter what you consider "their scripture," it's simply not in there.

As for "making up the rules as they go," well, if a Christian did that, you wouldn't call them much of a Christian, would you?

Let's try your logic here....

A Christian wearing a bomb vest runs into a crowd calling "For the Glory of Jesus" and blows up 37 people. Does the world say, "yup, just your typical radical Christian"?

A Muslim wearing a bomb vest runs into a crowd calling "Allahu Akbar" and blows up 37 people. Does the world say -- wow -- who saw THAT coming?!?!?!

I'm beginning to believe you're just playing a game here.

So your position is that the most moderate of Muslims do honor killings?

Well, gosh, Nathan, they're only doing what's culturally acceptable! :shrug:

Well then Boo Hoo. If they wanted to be heroes, they should've been firemen.

If they wanted to be heroes? REALLY? You think THAT'S why people become cops? I suppose the phrase "to protect and to serve" is foreign to you. Or maybe you watch too much TV.

Cops are paid and trained to go into dangerous situations and keep the peace -- if they refuse to do their job, who do you think is going to do it for them?

So, let's say a bunch of guys are in bank with automatic weapons, and ... I guess if a cop is a REAL cop, he's going to run in there with his 9mm handgun and wipe them all out! No, Nathan, that's what SWAT is for.. and negotiating teams...
You really don't have a clue.

Even firefighters won't go into a situation where they're being shot at or singled out for attack. :doh:

Agreed, that's a big part of the problem -- now we need a solution.

They need to convert to Christianity! :shrug:

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 08:34 PM

That's just plain ignorant, Nathan. I think YOU thought "oilfield trash" was a derogatory term.... but whatever!

not at all -- I figured, since you put it in quotes (which I also used, by the way,) that while it may be a derogatory term to some, you were not using it as such -- so neither was I.

Stranger things have happened.

Agreed -- and it's the strange things which are the most interesting.

OH, are kids are in trouble! :shocked: (kidding, I hope)

of course! I have a sense of humor, you see -- and you haven't said anything that I haven't said myself.

So, the Twin Towers event --- does not qualify as terrorism?

Of course it does -- You don't think it was a political statement?

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 08:37 PM

Of course it does -- You don't think it was a political statement?

Ummmmm..... When I watched all that happening on TV, somehow it NEVER crossed my mind to think, "hmmm... the Muslim world is making a political statement". :doh:

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 08:45 PM

Let's try your logic here....

A Christian wearing a bomb vest runs into a crowd calling "For the Glory of Jesus" and blows up 37 people. Does the world say, "yup, just your typical radical Christian"?

I wouldn't call them much of a Christian at all -- would you?

A Muslim wearing a bomb vest runs into a crowd calling "Allahu Akbar" and blows up 37 people. Does the world say -- wow -- who saw THAT coming?!?!?!

Do they call him "just another Muslim"? And does the act of other people calling him one make him one?

If I tell you that Adolf Hitler was a Christian, does he become one? If a thousand people say it? A million? If he says it himself? (Which he did, on numerous occasions)

I'm beginning to believe you're just playing a game here.

If I am, I'm winning -- you're not using "my logic" very well.

Well, gosh, Nathan, they're only doing what's culturally acceptable! :shrug:

Are they now? If a Christian living in that area were to do the same thing, would the culture accept it? We already know that these sort of things do happen in Christian nations -- with alarming frequency, since they were not only culturally acceptable, but actually legal. I mentioned Brazil and Columbia earlier; they were dismissed because apparently, killing an adulterous wife doesn't count as an "honor killing" to some people.

If they wanted to be heroes? REALLY? You think THAT'S why people become cops? I suppose the phrase "to protect and to serve" is foreign to you. Or maybe you watch too much TV.

No, I know cops pretty well -- they know they're not going to be loved for what they do; it's often a thankless job to a less-than-grateful public. If they're not willing to "protect and serve," then whose fault is that?

So, let's say a bunch of guys are in bank with automatic weapons, and ... I guess if a cop is a REAL cop, he's going to run in there with his 9mm handgun and wipe them all out! No, Nathan, that's what SWAT is for.. and negotiating teams...

And where are they now? Why haven't they gone in and reclaimed these neighborhoods? No, they abandoned them.

You really don't have a clue.

You're the one who admits that the cops have done nothing, and then blames the locals for the results.

Cops have a job to do -- it's rough, it's dangerous, it's thankless -- but if they don't do it, who will?

Even firefighters won't go into a situation where they're being shot at or singled out for attack. :doh:

Well then there's your solution -- you want them out of those neighborhoods? Burn them out.

(kidding, of course -- but don't tell me it hasn't at least been considered.)

They need to convert to Christianity! :shrug:

OK, question 1: Why should they?

Question 2: Suppose they do, and STILL keep singling out the cops for attack... got a plan B?

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 08:50 PM

Ummmmm..... When I watched all that happening on TV, somehow it NEVER crossed my mind to think, "hmmm... the Muslim world is making a political statement". :doh:

Al-Qaeda = The Muslim world? And you call me clueless...

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 08:59 PM

I wouldn't call them much of a Christian at all -- would you?

That's the point -- the whole world -- EVEN NATHAN POE --- recognize(s) that this conduct is foreign to a Christian! :thumb:

Do they call him "just another Muslim"? And does the act of other people calling him one make him one?

It matters not what they call him --- the world does NOT immediately declare "that is SO -UN-MUSLIM of him! Thanks for helping me with this, Nathan! :wink:

If I tell you that Adolf Hitler was a Christian, does he become one? If a thousand people say it? A million? If he says it himself? (Which he did, on numerous occasions)

First, congratulations on being the first to invoke Godwin's Law. :thumb: And, AGAIN, you illustrate my point --- Hitler was so incredibly UN-CHRISTIAN that even a MILLION people claiming he was would not convince anybody.

If I am, I'm winning -- you're not using "my logic" very well.

:lmbo: --- um... "playing a game" in NO way implies you are winning :no:

Are they now? If a Christian living in that area were to do the same thing, would the culture accept it? We already know that these sort of things do happen in Christian nations -- with alarming frequency, since they were not only culturally acceptable, but actually legal. I mentioned Brazil and Columbia earlier; they were dismissed because apparently, killing an adulterous wife doesn't count as an "honor killing" to some people.

Although Sikhs and Hindus do sometimes commit such murders, honor killings, both worldwide and in the West, are mainly Muslim-on-Muslim crimes. In this [2010] study, worldwide, 91 percent of perpetrators were Muslims. In North America, most killers (84 percent) were Muslims, with only a few Sikhs and even fewer Hindus perpetrating honor killings; in Europe, Muslims comprised an even larger majority at 96 percent while Sikhs were a tiny percentage. In Muslim countries, obviously almost all the perpetrators were Muslims. With only two exceptions, the victims were all members of the same religious group as their murderers
Phyllis Chesler - Worldwide Trends in Honor Killings - Middle East Quarterly, Spring 2010, pp. 3-11

No, I know cops pretty well -- they know they're not going to be loved for what they do; it's often a thankless job to a less-than-grateful public. If they're not willing to "protect and serve," then whose fault is that?

They're not STUPID, Nathan. And NOT going into a situaton where you are WAY OUTGUNNED is NOT "refusing to do your job" -- It is SANITY! I never met a cop who didn't want to go home after the end of his shift.

And where are they now? Why haven't they gone in and reclaimed these neighborhoods? No, they abandoned them.

That's too dumb to even debate.

You're the one who admits that the cops have done nothing, and then blames the locals for the results.

More of your whacky logic --- never said that, and only a moron would infer that from what I said. I think you're playing games.

Cops have a job to do -- it's rough, it's dangerous, it's thankless -- but if they don't do it, who will?

Are you in charge of writing their job description? :no:

Well then there's your solution -- you want them out of those neighborhoods? Burn them out.

(kidding, of course -- but don't tell me it hasn't at least been considered.)

I wouldn't even kid about that. :shrug:

OK, question 1: Why should they?

Because Christ changes lives.

Question 2: Suppose they do, and STILL keep singling out the cops for attack... got a plan B?

If they become Christians, they are Christ followers. And they probably will quit OCCUPY! :smug:

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 09:02 PM

Al-Qaeda = The Muslim world? And you call me clueless...

Oh yeah, I forgot... Al-Qaeda has NOTHING TO DO with Muslims! :doh:

Sheeeeeeesh

What is the equivalent Christian group, Nathan?

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 10:11 PM

That's the point -- the whole world -- EVEN NATHAN POE --- recognize(s) that this conduct is foreign to a Christian! :thumb:

And the world that doesn't get its brain washed, rinsed, and set on a regular basis by the usual gang of talking heads recognizes the conduct is appropriate to a terrorist.

You think Christians are incapable of atrocity?

It matters not what they call him --- the world does NOT immediately declare "that is SO -UN-MUSLIM of him! Thanks for helping me with this, Nathan! :wink:

Right, he is what "the world" declares him to be. :wink:

using your "logic," how many people do I need to declare you to be an English Sheepdog before you become one?

First, congratulations on being the first to invoke Godwin's Law. :thumb: And, AGAIN, you illustrate my point --- Hitler was so incredibly UN-CHRISTIAN that even a MILLION people claiming he was would not convince anybody.

Un-Christian according to whom? If the world says he is, he must be, right?

it's not like Christians have never killed Jews en masse before -- old Adolf just industrialized it.

:lmbo: --- um... "playing a game" in NO way implies you are winning :no:

Well, I'm not "playing a game," but I will admit that I am enjoying myself, and if you want to understand why, help me out with the following thought experiment:

Post the worst-case scenario for me. Use your imagination and describe what you think will happen if all the hysterics about "creeping sharia" and "stealth jihad" are actually true.

Go on -- don't spare any of the gory details. Then ask me why I should sympathize with anyone -- them or you.

Although Sikhs and Hindus do sometimes commit such murders, honor killings, both worldwide and in the West, are mainly Muslim-on-Muslim crimes. In this [2010] study, worldwide, 91 percent of perpetrators were Muslims. In North America, most killers (84 percent) were Muslims, with only a few Sikhs and even fewer Hindus perpetrating honor killings; in Europe, Muslims comprised an even larger majority at 96 percent while Sikhs were a tiny percentage. In Muslim countries, obviously almost all the perpetrators were Muslims. With only two exceptions, the victims were all members of the same religious group as their murderers

So it does happen elsewhere, and surprise surprise, it also happens in the most historically violent and currently unstable region in the world.

Isn't it obvious that the Middle East is going through it's own Dark Age right about now? Just like what Europe went through when the Roman Empire (up to that point the unifying government of the region) collapsed and left them to their own devices, what we're seeing in the post-colonial ME is just a few steps short of institutionalized anarchy. Granted, the ME is in a much better position than Europe was in (some people apparently learn from the mistakes of history), but it's still in turmoil. (let's hope theirs doesn't last as long)

Now, you tell me -- in times of crisis and upheaval, what do the people always turn to? Yep -- religion. I don't recall the Church in the Middle Ages being quite as mellow and tolerant as it is now, nor would I expect any religion to be in this time.

You say the kind of bomb wielding conduct is "completely foreign to a Christian"?I agree (give or take a couple of abortion clinics), but if every single Muslim in the Middle East were to convert tomorrow, I'll bet you it wouldn't be foreign for long -- it would change absolutely nothing.

They're not STUPID, Nathan. And NOT going into a situaton where you are WAY OUTGUNNED is NOT "refusing to do your job" -- It is SANITY! I never met a cop who didn't want to go home after the end of his shift.

So let's give them more guns, then. If they're not equipped to deal with the problem, send in someone who is -- SWAT teams, national guard (or the european equivalent thereof), or (if the situation is that dire) declare martial law and send in the military.

Bottom line -- they abandoned those neighborhoods; observe the result. If they're not able to do the job, send in the people who are.

You may think it's extreme, but desperate times, and all that.

That's too dumb to even debate.

It's too dumb to debate that nothing good happens when people do nothing. Fine.

More of your whacky logic --- never said that, and only a moron would infer that from what I said. I think you're playing games.

So the cops didn't abandon those neighborhoods? No, wait, they did.
Did they have good reason to? I won't deny that they did.
So did anyone honestly expect a different result than what has happened?

Are you in charge of writing their job description? :no:

I'm calling it like I've seen it -- you see anything inaccurate about my description? :no:

I wouldn't even kid about that. :shrug:

People (most of whom self-identify as Christians; whether or not they are I'll leave open to debate) have said a lot worse -- and they weren't kidding.

Take my little thought experiment; you might find it enlightening.

Because Christ changes lives.

And why should they want a change? They seem content enough being Muslims -- you're the one who wants them to change.

You should know as well as anyone you can't force Christ on someone (not successfully, anyway) -- they have to want it, first. What can you offer them that they don't already believe they have (or can get themselves)?

If they become Christians, they are Christ followers. And they probably will quit OCCUPY! :smug:

Again, you're not offering them anything they want or need.

As I said, take my little thought experiment -- tell me what you think will happen if they get everything they want.

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 10:16 PM

Oh yeah, I forgot... Al-Qaeda has NOTHING TO DO with Muslims! :doh:

Sheeeeeeesh

What is the equivalent Christian group, Nathan?

Ok, cowpoke, what's the scam? You cannot be asking me such an easy question...

73563

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 10:30 PM

You think Christians are incapable of atrocity?
Right, he is what "the world" declares him to be. :wink:
using your "logic," how many people do I need to declare you to be an English Sheepdog before you become one?

wow

it's not like Christians have never killed Jews en masse before -- old Adolf just industrialized it.

You are aware of Godwin's Law, yes?

Well, I'm not "playing a game," but I will admit that I am enjoying myself, and if you want to understand why, help me out with the following thought experiment:

Post the worst-case scenario for me. Use your imagination and describe what you think will happen if all the hysterics about "creeping sharia" and "stealth jihad" are actually true.

Go on -- don't spare any of the gory details. Then ask me why I should sympathize with anyone -- them or you.

How bout actually dealing with the topic? Muslims are killing Christians. Documentable. It seems to be "expected" of them - it's what they do.
When Christians kill Muslims, it's "unusual".

So it does happen elsewhere, and surprise surprise, it also happens in the most historically violent and currently unstable region in the world.

Do a little research for yourself, and see what percentage of this is perpretated by MUSLIMS.

Isn't it obvious that the Middle East is going through it's own Dark Age right about now?

Yes, Islam doesn't want to come into the 21st century... or the 19th, or the 18th........

You say the kind of bomb wielding conduct is "completely foreign to a Christian"?I agree (give or take a couple of abortion clinics),

I belive I mentioned that quite a while ago in this thread ALONG with the fact that every Christian leader on the planet (with the exception, perhaps, of the wonderful brethren and cisterns at Westboro) denounced them loudly and resoundly.

but if every single Muslim in the Middle East were to convert tomorrow, I'll bet you it wouldn't be foreign for long -- it would change absolutely nothing.

Then there was no conversion! :huh:

So let's give them more guns, then. If they're not equipped to deal with the problem, send in someone who is -- SWAT teams, national guard (or the european equivalent thereof), or (if the situation is that dire) declare martial law and send in the military.

Just hold on.... Obama is reasoning with them --- soon, all will be well.

Bottom line -- they abandoned those neighborhoods; observe the result. If they're not able to do the job, send in the people who are.

You may think it's extreme, but desperate times, and all that.

They don't want to integrate into society. You cannot force them to do so. :shrug:

It's too dumb to debate that nothing good happens when people do nothing. Fine.

I think you should start your own thread on dealing with neighborhoods that need burned down, or whatever your solution is.

People (most of whom self-identify as Christians; whether or not they are I'll leave open to debate) have said a lot worse -- and they weren't kidding.

I'll leave that to you.

And why should they want a change? They seem content enough being Muslims -- you're the one who wants them to change.

I believe Christ has a better plan than Islam.

You should know as well as anyone you can't force Christ on someone (not successfully, anyway) -- they have to want it, first. What can you offer them that they don't already believe they have (or can get themselves)?

I have never forced -- or even TRIED to force -- a single person to convert to Christianity. Yet I have prayed with SCORES of people who WANTED to. The Holy Spirt is involved.

Again, you're not offering them anything they want or need.

You don't know that.

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 10:32 PM

Ok, cowpoke, what's the scam? You cannot be asking me such an easy question...

73563

And, AGAIN.... how many Christians today accept them as serving CHRIST? :doh:

You always have to go to EXTREMISTS in Christianity to get the same "accepted" behavior in Islam.

Cow Poke

February 21st 2012, 11:11 PM

Ok, cowpoke, what's the scam? You cannot be asking me such an easy question...

Nathan,

Why can't you see that, in order to even come CLOSE to the head-chopper-offer and honor-killing-daughter-murder conduct of Islam, you have to dredge up the very WORST of Christianity, which the rest of us clearly and loudly denounce as HORRIBLE!

Here's the difference --- Christianity (and the world) acknowledge WITHOUT ANY ATTEMPT AT DEFENCE that such conduct by Christians (or people claiming to be Christians) is irreprehensible.

Meanwhile, a very significant part of Islam excuses, ingores, condones or justifies the honor killing, murder of non-Muslims, murder of their own people because they're a different part of Islam, terrorism, butchery..... and you go through all kinds of contortions to try to lay it off as "dark ages" or "that part of the world" or "other people do this, too".....

I did just a cursory google search, and there's PLENTY of evidence out there that many of these things are almost uniquely ISLAM.

What's your game? Do you just like to argue for the sake of argument? Do you have that much against Christianity?

Think about it, Nathan.. you smugly post the picture of KKK (did you really get that from Batman's Dump? :lmbo:) as a comeback to my question about a comparable group in Christianity. You have to go to our SEWER to get "comparable" conduct.

Jedidiah

February 21st 2012, 11:27 PM

I'm beginning to believe you're just playing a game here.

Sadly, I think he really believes everything he says.

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 11:38 PM

You are aware of Godwin's Law, yes?

Of course -- now either you want to discuss internet memes or you wantto continue the current discussion on Christianity vs. Islam -- how neither religion should be defined by its kooks nor by its detractors.

How bout actually dealing with the topic? Muslims are killing Christians. Documentable. It seems to be "expected" of them - it's what they do.
When Christians kill Muslims, it's "unusual".

Do you expect them to do it? I expect violent people in a violent place to act... (dramatic pause) violently.

Now, I'll grant you, the Christian violence is more directed towards inanimate objects (I wasn't kidding before about the tires getting slashed for missing church -- not exactly the sort of thing the local police show a lot of support for) and the occasional gay bashing, but we're fortunate to have a secular society which lets them know, in no uncertain terms, that they don't get a free pass for that sort of thing.

Take on my little thought experiment -- you might actually learn something.

Do a little research for yourself, and see what percentage of this is perpretated by MUSLIMS.

I'm aware of the numbers -- I'm asking about the reasons. Obviously Islam in and of itself isn't to blame, because the percentages don't support that -- to wit, most Muslims don't do it, and the people who do aren't all Muslims. I suspect that if we broke it down by geography instead of religion, we'd get another piece of the puzzle as well.

Yes, Islam doesn't want to come into the 21st century... or the 19th, or the 18th........

It took a Renaissance (which never would've happened without Islam, btw) to get Europe into the 15th...

Cultures ebb and flow -- one reaches a peak while another is at its nadir.

I suspect Islam needs a renaissance of its own in order to get out its medieval rut, but they're not going to be dragged into it kicking and screaming by the likes of you or me.

Of course -- and here's a thought that might keep you up at night -- perhaps that's what we're beginning to see now. They're not adapting to us; they're making us adapt to them.

Seriously, take my thought experiment -- where will this eventually lead?

I belive I mentioned that quite a while ago in this thread ALONG with the fact that every Christian leader on the planet (with the exception, perhaps, of the wonderful brethren and cisterns at Westboro) denounced them loudly and resoundly.

And I believe you also mentioned that Muslim leaders tend to denounce similar behavior for public consumption while privately encouraging it for their own people. Not privy to too many Middle Eastern Mosques myself, I wasn't able to either agree or disagree with that statement. You get around there much?

Then there was no conversion! :huh:

So a Christian would be incapable of violence? I know you're not saying that...

Just hold on.... Obama is reasoning with them --- soon, all will be well.

Reasoning with whom? The people in the slums? The people the French and British governments abandoned? You think Obama is going to correct their neglect? Wishful thinking, my friend...

They don't want to integrate into society. You cannot force them to do so. :shrug:

Precisely -- and since nobody is offering up a solution, what is this but a large handwringing party?

Of course, it looks more like the societies are being integrated into them... As I said, perhaps Islam is getting its renaissance after all.

Which brings us back to the million dollar question -- where is this all going to lead?

I think you should start your own thread on dealing with neighborhoods that need burned down, or whatever your solution is.

Not my solution -- and I'll thank you to stop twisting my words -- but I've heard such solutions (and others, or a more, shall we say, "final" nature?) remarked, in jest and not so much, by plenty of self-identified "Christians."

You say such violence is foreign to and denounced by Christians -- let us hope it stays that way. People do all sorts of things when threatened; actually "turning the other cheek" is never one of them.

I'll leave that to you.

I only repeat what I've heard -- from Christians in (so they tell me) good standing.

I believe Christ has a better plan than Islam.

Clearly, the Muslims disagree, else they'd have converted by now.

I have never forced -- or even TRIED to force -- a single person to convert to Christianity. Yet I have prayed with SCORES of people who WANTED to. The Holy Spirt is involved.

Of course -- and if the Holy Spirit hasn't interceded yet, how many SCORES of people is it going to take to change His mind? (yes, it's a trick question)

You don't know that.

Not with 100% certainty, but I know that the "Good News" isn't exactly a secret. You've already shared a personal story of one such conversion, so we know the message is getting out. Clearly, the desire to remain Muslim is stronger than the desire to convert -- there can be many reasons for this: family/peer pressure, tradition, etc., but as you mentioned, the Holy Spirit is involved... and what is stronger than the Holy Spirit? (Yes, another trick question).

Let's face it -- if God wanted it, and if they wanted it, what could stop it?

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 11:45 PM

And, AGAIN.... how many Christians today accept them as serving CHRIST? :doh:

You always have to go to EXTREMISTS in Christianity to get the same "accepted" behavior in Islam.

You're still assuming that suicide bombings are "accepted" in Islam -- not seeing a whole lot of support except for "well, they happen, so the people must approve!".

But, tell you what -- go with me on this one:

Would you agree that the KKK, even though it calls itself (at least in part) a religious organization, is actually not?

That they are, in fact, a group of political terrorists who use religion (among other things) amongst themselves and potential recruits to give their despicable agenda the illusion of respectability, nobility even divinity?

That only the most desperate and depraved individuals (rubes ripe for the recruiting) would actually fall for such a load of fertilizer, and that anyone who would actually mistake these creeps for legitimate representatives of "their" religion is an idiot?

Would you call that a fair assessment?

Epoetker

February 21st 2012, 11:49 PM

Sadly, I think he really believes everything he says.

Enough of this. Nathan Poe is irredeemably morally corrupt. After he said that the guy who was forced to plea bargain a manslaughter charge over what him and all sane observers would call justified self-defense was a guilty criminal, why are we still trying to debate someone who obviously has no independent soul, nor any deeply held moral first principles? Just find his master or parent or handler and debate him, because no intelligent man takes the word of one who is transparently a slave. Until he frees himself, or someone else frees him, there is no reasoning with him.

Nathan Poe

February 21st 2012, 11:54 PM

Nathan,

Why can't you see that, in order to even come CLOSE to the head-chopper-offer and honor-killing-daughter-murder conduct of Islam, you have to dredge up the very WORST of Christianity, which the rest of us clearly and loudly denounce as HORRIBLE!

And why do you believe that these incidents are representative of the religion as a whole?

Here's the difference --- Christianity (and the world) acknowledge WITHOUT ANY ATTEMPT AT DEFENCE that such conduct by Christians (or people claiming to be Christians) is irreprehensible.

Guess what -- there's not as much of a difference as you think there is.

Meanwhile, a very significant part of Islam excuses, ingores, condones or justifies the honor killing, murder of non-Muslims, murder of their own people because they're a different part of Islam, terrorism, butchery..... and you go through all kinds of contortions to try to lay it off as "dark ages" or "that part of the world" or "other people do this, too".....

History has an ugly habit of repeating itself -- the names and places change; the tragedy stays the same.

I did just a cursory google search, and there's PLENTY of evidence out there that many of these things are almost uniquely ISLAM.

And yet, you can't post a single verse from any of the various holy books which order or condone such behavior -- whatever reason these people are doing it, it's not Islam that's telling them to; they're coming up with that on their own.

What's your game? Do you just like to argue for the sake of argument? Do you have that much against Christianity?

It's not a game, but I am enjoying this.

Take my little thought experiment -- hypothetically speaking, play out this little "stealth jihad" to whatever conclusion you think it's going to come to -- and I promise you you'll have your answer.

Think about it, Nathan.. you smugly post the picture of KKK (did you really get that from Batman's Dump? :lmbo:) as a comeback to my question about a comparable group in Christianity.

It was either that or the KKKs own website -- and you should hear some of the scripture they use to justify their actions...

You have to go to our SEWER to get "comparable" conduct.

I would suggest that most of the Middle East is just such a sewer -- And without commenting on who (if anyone) is responsible for it, I'll just point out that the more it gets stirred up; the more the worst of the filth rises to the surface.

Nathan Poe

February 22nd 2012, 12:03 AM

Enough of this. Nathan Poe is irredeemably morally corrupt.

And I care for your opinion because...?

After he said that the guy who was forced to plea bargain a manslaughter charge over what him and all sane observers would call justified self-defense was a guilty criminal,

Forced? Who forced him? His lawyers spelled it all out to him and he chose to confess to committing a crime rather than tell a self-defense story to a jury. Surely you, of all people, believe that a man should assume personal responsibility for his words. If he himself said he was guilty (and I didn't see anyone twisting his arm), who are we to doubt him?

Now, if you want to claim he got lousy advice from his lawyers, and that's why he never bothered to claim self-defense, I'll be the first to agree with you. Otherwise, facts just seem to be a naughty inconvenience in your rants.

why are we still trying to debate someone who obviously has no independent soul, nor any deeply held moral first principles? Just find his master or parent or handler and debate him, because no intelligent man takes the word of one who is transparently a slave. Until he frees himself, or someone else frees him, there is no reasoning with him.

As I've often said, people have climbed the tower for less than this. I shudder to think what folks like this would be like if society didn't keep them in check.

Nathan, don't respond to Epoetker. he is trolling and straying off the topic. He is being handled

pancreasman

February 22nd 2012, 12:06 AM

All getting a bit shrill, aren't we?

Nathan Poe

February 22nd 2012, 12:25 AM

All getting a bit shrill, aren't we?

Agreed.

73566

Onceametho

February 22nd 2012, 04:09 AM

You're really demonstrating your ignorance. The Old Testament is the platform on which the New Testament was built. There are tons of foundational truths, but there are obvious differences. Jesus BECAME the scacrifice once and for all. In the Old Testament, sin was "carried over" to the next year, where atonement was made annually. When Jesus came, He ended that system.

I say it because the Bible says it.

God is the same, yes.

You might want to study the word "infer". And your inference is a flat out untruth. He is the same God.

He is, yes. Who's on first? :grin:

Well, it bothers me a little that you're wallowing in your ignorance, and trying to force God to behave the way YOU want Him to, and not quite sharp enough to allow for the fact that God can be the SAME but ACT differently when He chooses to do so. Sending His Son as the propitiation for our sin was His choice.

How long are you going to continue kabuki dancing and diverting from the fact that the God of Islam is WAY different from the God of the Bible.
Here, let me help you....

God loved us so much that He sent His Son to die for us.
Allah loved himself so much that he sends OTHER peoples' sons to die for HIM.

Why - more diversion?

Bad luck, you've lost all integrity re your infamous list.

Cheers

Onceametho

February 22nd 2012, 04:14 AM

Well, I can understand one thing from your post. You haven't the foggiest idea of what Christianity is.

Hi Jedidiah,

Well I guess I could ask all the same questions as I have asked to Cow Poke, but I guess you would dodge them just as much as he has.
The artful dodgers!!!!

Why did your God find it necessary to change the rules? Nah! you'll dodge this one I guess.

Cheers.

Onceametho

February 22nd 2012, 05:12 AM

[QUOTE=Onceametho;3368945]

I never said, nor implied, that there were not other factors.
Please feel free to continue the kabuki dancing.

And, unless I missed it, you kinda keep avoiding the honor killing aspect of this peaceful religion.

Bad luck, you've lost all credibility re your infamous list.

And, you're wrong again. I have not avoided "the killing of infidels". All I've said is that it is not the main reason for the murders and these murders would still exist if "the killing of infidels" did not appear in their religion. Deep seeded historical factors; present day factors.

You must have missed it!!!!! Nuh! Just not credible.

Cheers

Onceametho

February 22nd 2012, 05:24 AM

My next question is, what should we, christians in the West, do (or not do)

Hi Cybelle,

Thought I'd try and get people back to the topic at hand.

What can we do?

Remove all support for Israel. (Many businesses in the "West" would go bankrupt)

Stop buying oil from all Islamic nations. (Ditto)

At an appropriate time, encage all Mosques on a Friday. Interrogate and remove all fundamentalists and extremists.
At an appropriate time, encage all churches on a Sunday. Interrogate and remove all fundamentalists and extremists.
Put all the above on a desert island somewhere to fend for themselves............................Please wake me up. I think I'm dreaming!!!!

Cheers

Cow Poke

February 22nd 2012, 08:11 AM

Hi Jedidiah,

Well I guess I could ask all the same questions as I have asked to Cow Poke, but I guess you would dodge them just as much as he has.
The artful dodgers!!!!

Why did your God find it necessary to change the rules? Nah! you'll dodge this one I guess.

Cheers.

So, you want a predictable God who does things the way YOU think they should be done. :doh:

Cow Poke

February 22nd 2012, 09:18 AM

You're still assuming that suicide bombings are "accepted" in Islam -- not seeing a whole lot of support except for "well, they happen, so the people must approve!".

Do you realize that you actually TYPED THIS???? :doh:

But, tell you what -- go with me on this one:

Would you agree that the KKK, even though it calls itself (at least in part) a religious organization, is actually not?

That they are, in fact, a group of political terrorists who use religion (among other things) amongst themselves and potential recruits to give their despicable agenda the illusion of respectability, nobility even divinity?

Actually, I beleive that the foundation for their beliefs comes from the "mark of Cain" theology of the Old Testament that they have perverted (as did the Mormons under Brigham Young) into white supremism, and many of them actually believe they are "doing God's work". But I'm seriously thinking on this, and trying to play along!

That only the most desperate and depraved individuals (rubes ripe for the recruiting) would actually fall for such a load of fertilizer, and that anyone who would actually mistake these creeps for legitimate representatives of "their" religion is an idiot?

Very carefully worded lead-in there, I see! :smile: As stated, I beleive that THEY believe (except, of course, the ones who just get in it because it fosters their bigotry and hate) they are "Christian". The rest of us almost unanimously (always mindful of the brethren and cistern at Westboro) denounce and clearly reject them.

Would you call that a fair assessment?

I would call that a very clever attempt to equate them with the head-chopper-offers and wife-and-daughter-butcherers and jihadists of the religion of Islam. The DIFFERENCE, however, is that you don't find the equivalent lound and clear denunciation of this "extremist" conduct by a vast majority of Islamic leaders.

Cerebrum123

February 22nd 2012, 12:37 PM

Of course -- now either you want to discuss internet memes or you wantto continue the current discussion on Christianity vs. Islam -- how neither religion should be defined by its kooks nor by its detractors.

Do you expect them to do it? I expect violent people in a violent place to act... (dramatic pause) violently.

Now, I'll grant you, the Christian violence is more directed towards inanimate objects (I wasn't kidding before about the tires getting slashed for missing church -- not exactly the sort of thing the local police show a lot of support for) and the occasional gay bashing, but we're fortunate to have a secular society which lets them know, in no uncertain terms, that they don't get a free pass for that sort of thing.

Take on my little thought experiment -- you might actually learn something.

I'm aware of the numbers -- I'm asking about the reasons. Obviously Islam in and of itself isn't to blame, because the percentages don't support that -- to wit, most Muslims don't do it, and the people who do aren't all Muslims. I suspect that if we broke it down by geography instead of religion, we'd get another piece of the puzzle as well.

It took a Renaissance (which never would've happened without Islam, btw) to get Europe into the 15th...

Cultures ebb and flow -- one reaches a peak while another is at its nadir.

I suspect Islam needs a renaissance of its own in order to get out its medieval rut, but they're not going to be dragged into it kicking and screaming by the likes of you or me.

Of course -- and here's a thought that might keep you up at night -- perhaps that's what we're beginning to see now. They're not adapting to us; they're making us adapt to them.

Seriously, take my thought experiment -- where will this eventually lead?

And I believe you also mentioned that Muslim leaders tend to denounce similar behavior for public consumption while privately encouraging it for their own people. Not privy to too many Middle Eastern Mosques myself, I wasn't able to either agree or disagree with that statement. You get around there much?

So a Christian would be incapable of violence? I know you're not saying that...

Reasoning with whom? The people in the slums? The people the French and British governments abandoned? You think Obama is going to correct their neglect? Wishful thinking, my friend...

Precisely -- and since nobody is offering up a solution, what is this but a large handwringing party?

Of course, it looks more like the societies are being integrated into them... As I said, perhaps Islam is getting its renaissance after all.

Which brings us back to the million dollar question -- where is this all going to lead?

Not my solution -- and I'll thank you to stop twisting my words -- but I've heard such solutions (and others, or a more, shall we say, "final" nature?) remarked, in jest and not so much, by plenty of self-identified "Christians."

You say such violence is foreign to and denounced by Christians -- let us hope it stays that way. People do all sorts of things when threatened; actually "turning the other cheek" is never one of them.

I only repeat what I've heard -- from Christians in (so they tell me) good standing.

Clearly, the Muslims disagree, else they'd have converted by now.

Of course -- and if the Holy Spirit hasn't interceded yet, how many SCORES of people is it going to take to change His mind? (yes, it's a trick question)

Not with 100% certainty, but I know that the "Good News" isn't exactly a secret. You've already shared a personal story of one such conversion, so we know the message is getting out. Clearly, the desire to remain Muslim is stronger than the desire to convert -- there can be many reasons for this: family/peer pressure, tradition, etc., but as you mentioned, the Holy Spirit is involved... and what is stronger than the Holy Spirit? (Yes, another trick question).

Let's face it -- if God wanted it, and if they wanted it, what could stop it?

One of those pressures to remain a Muslim is the part that ANY apostate is deserving of death. I give the relevant references here http://answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm
This link shows a number of Muslim scholars who believe that the punishment for apostasy is death. Now that is some TREMENDOUS pressure. Not to mention that when their is no Caliph in rule ,it is the job of ANY Muslim who knows about the apostasy to enact this law.
As for you question about adding in the geography of the "honor" killings ,I say you need to add in to that geography a history of that geography. What you end up with is that many of these places were under Islamic rule for some period of time.
How did Islam lead to the Renaissance? The Crusades yes ,but I certainly I don't know about the Renaissance.
I think you need to understand what motivates a Muslim before you go comparing Islam to Christianity.

Jedidiah

February 22nd 2012, 04:09 PM

Hi Jedidiah,

Well I guess I could ask all the same questions as I have asked to Cow Poke, but I guess you would dodge them just as much as he has.
The artful dodgers!!!!

Why did your God find it necessary to change the rules? Nah! you'll dodge this one I guess.

Cheers.The rules did not change. The ritual responsibilities of Israel simply do not apply after the final revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. Phoney questions like this are what revealed to me that you have no idea what Christianity is or is about.

Nathan Poe

February 22nd 2012, 05:01 PM

Do you realize that you actually TYPED THIS???? :doh:

Do you realize that you actually BELIEVE this? :doh: :doh:

Actually, I beleive that the foundation for their beliefs comes from the "mark of Cain" theology of the Old Testament that they have perverted (as did the Mormons under Brigham Young) into white supremism, and many of them actually believe they are "doing God's work". But I'm seriously thinking on this, and trying to play along!

So it could be (and probably is) that many members of the KKK actually believe their own "we're doing God's work" hype -- not surprising, since that's a pretty standard recruiting schtick (so I've heard).

Very carefully worded lead-in there, I see! :smile: As stated, I beleive that THEY believe (except, of course, the ones who just get in it because it fosters their bigotry and hate) they are "Christian". The rest of us almost unanimously (always mindful of the brethren and cistern at Westboro) denounce and clearly reject them.

And anyone who doesn't reject their vision of themselves as "Christian soldiers" (so to speak) would have to be some kind of idiot who doesn't know the first thing about Christianity -- again, fair assessment?

I would call that a very clever attempt to equate them with the head-chopper-offers and wife-and-daughter-butcherers and jihadists of the religion of Islam. The DIFFERENCE, however, is that you don't find the equivalent lound and clear denunciation of this "extremist" conduct by a vast majority of Islamic leaders.

Actually, I do -- because I listen. A shame you choose not to.

pancreasman

February 22nd 2012, 05:11 PM

Cow Poke

February 22nd 2012, 05:12 PM

So it could be (and probably is) that many members of the KKK actually believe their own "we're doing God's work" hype -- not surprising, since that's a pretty standard recruiting schtick (so I've heard).

Just like the Jihadists believe they're doing Allah's work.

Actually, I do -- because I listen.

I don't believe you're being honest. Let me try it this way.

Do you honestly believe that Islamic leaders are denouncing terrorism and honor killings TO THE SAME EXTENT that Christian leaders distance themselves from KKK?

A shame you choose not to.

I am aware that SOME Muslim clerics have denounced violence.
I'm ALSO aware that some of them do so for Western consumption.

Cow Poke

February 22nd 2012, 05:18 PM

You do find denunciation of terrorist, barbarous and criminal acts committed (by some Muslims) by Muslim clerics and intellectuals who represent the vast majority of the Muslim population of the world. I think (and I'm sure he'll correct me with his usual aplomb if I'm wrong) that CP does not believe them.

I do not dispute that SOME Muslim clerics are sincere in denouncing honor killings and terrorism.

I think he has asserted that Muslims say one thing in public and another in private.

SOME

This makes it very difficult to have any kind of meaningful conversation. Minds are already made up and contrary evidence is explained away.

Yes, and you are totally unbiased and reasonable. :doh:

I'll ask you the same question, phrased a different way... do you honestly believe that the denunciations of terrorism and honor killings and such by Muslim clerics is as EXTENSIVE and SOLID as the denunciation of KKK and related nonsense by Christian leaders?

That is .... only the KOOKY Christian leaders would NOT denounce Chrstian violence.

Nathan Poe

February 22nd 2012, 05:33 PM

How did Islam lead to the Renaissance? The Crusades yes ,but I certainly I don't know about the Renaissance.

The Islamic world didn't necessarily "lead to the Renaissance," but it couldn't have happened without them.

Well, what is the Renaissance? "Rebirth." Specifically, the rebirth of Greek and Roman art, philosophy, literature, ideas, etc...

Now, The short version is that much of their art and literature was lost in Europe thanks to looters and pillagers (having your empire sacked will do that), but remember that the Greek and Roman empires both stretched into the Middle East and beyond -- and that the Arabic world was flourishing while Europe was in turmoil. It was there that much of the ancient works were preserved and translated -- They were particular fans of the philosophers, especially Aristotle, as I recall, and without them, we most likely would've lost most if not all their works.

73583

Here's an Islamic illustration of Aristotle.

There are several sites on this topic; here's just one: http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/rep/H011.htm#H011SECT2

Now, when people think of the Renaissance, they most commonly think of Italy; why? Several reasons, but partially because even though Italy was little more than a rag-tag collection of city-states, they were traders with the Middle East -- so when the traders brought back silks, spices, etc., they also brought back the Greek and Roman works that Europe was able to rediscover all over again.

So basically there you have it -- if the Islamic world hadn't been fans of the Greeks, they never would've preserved them for the Italians to bring back.

Epoetker

February 22nd 2012, 05:39 PM

And I care for your opinion because...?

You keep responding to my posts. :teeth:[/quote]

yes, and you keep trolling him and going off topic

Forced? Who forced him? His lawyers spelled it all out to him and he chose to confess to committing a crime rather than tell a self-defense story to a jury.

Because the truth as he and anyone with a brain (who are assiduously kept off juries in Britain) could see it carried an unacceptably high risk of getting sent to prison for life. Not all threats of force are backed up with force, and not all risks are created equal, but unless you've been in a similar situation and lost, you have absolutely no right to claim that confessing to a crime you didn't commit to avoid dying for a crime you also didn't commit is anything other than coercion-of law, prejudice, or procedure.

Surely you, of all people, believe that a man should assume personal responsibility for his words. If he himself said he was guilty (and I didn't see anyone twisting his arm), who are we to doubt him?

Wow. I can say without exaggeration that you are a wicked, lazy, insensitive son of hell.

Now, if you want to claim he got lousy advice from his lawyers, and that's why he never bothered to claim self-defense, I'll be the first to agree with you. Otherwise, facts just seem to be a naughty inconvenience in your rants.

So lawyers are the high priests of your religion now, and expertise in the law the determinant of all ends? They who at best manage the failures and corruptions of society are now the prime protectors of its people? Unlike you, I actually READ law school discussion boards(try autoadmit if you have a strong stomach), and anyone who believes that they operate under anything but simple profit motive is fooling themselves.

As I've often said, people have climbed the tower for less than this. I shudder to think what folks like this would be like if society didn't keep them in check.

:mob:

Why you sanctimonious, servile hypocrite! A man, having no previous criminal record, protects himself and his friends from a crazed lunatic, one of them a pregnant woman (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1461346/Five-years-in-prison-for-acting-in-self-defence.html), and you see fit to casually slander them like this! If there isn't a single respectable man left in your country to throw you from the tower like the devil-worshiper you are, then may you and all who think like you die in the next riot!

(CP, do you need any further evidence that Nathan Poe is completely morally corrupt, or should I encourage him some more?)

You were warned Epo.

Nathan Poe

February 22nd 2012, 05:45 PM

Just like the Jihadists believe they're doing Allah's work.

The difference is that we ALL choose not to believe the KKK... Surely you of all people know that calling oneself a Christian doesn't make you one.

I don't believe you're being honest. Let me try it this way.

Do you honestly believe that Islamic leaders are denouncing terrorism and honor killings TO THE SAME EXTENT that Christian leaders distance themselves from KKK?

Since I don't live in an Islamic society (my Middle Eastern neighbors notwithstanding) I don't get that much info on it (FWIW, my neighbors seem as shocked and appalled by that sort of thing as I do)

But why are you backpedaling? First it was that they approve of it, now it's "they don't denounce it TO THE SAME EXTENT"

At least you're admitting that they denounce it -- that's progress.

I am aware that SOME Muslim clerics have denounced violence.

But not enough for your liking -- How many Muslim clerics have you listened to recently?

I'd lay odds that the ones who DON'T denounce may very well be in it up to their eyebrows -- much like how the Christian pastors who DON"T denounce the KKK may well have a white hood of their own in the back of their closet...

I'm ALSO aware that some of them do so for Western consumption.

That's probably true -- Neither one of us are strangers to politicians who change their tunes to suit their audience.

Now, you'll argue that this is religion, not politics, and I'll answer: Is there a difference here? Why would those clerics care about "Western consumption" if not for political reasons?

Nathan Poe

February 22nd 2012, 05:55 PM

You keep responding to my posts. :teeth:

Continue to amuse me, and I'll continue to respond :teeth:

Because the truth as he and anyone with a brain (who are assiduously kept off juries in Britain) could see it carried an unacceptably high risk of getting sent to prison for life. Not all threats of force are backed up with force, and not all risks are created equal, but unless you've been in a similar situation and lost, you have absolutely no right to claim that confessing to a crime you didn't commit to avoid dying for a crime you also didn't commit is anything other than coercion-of law, prejudice, or procedure.

He had the opportunity to present his side of the story -- instead, he chose to plead guilty. No jury ever heard a word about self-defense, so how can you honestly say he was sent to prison for it?

Wow. I can say without exaggeration that you are a wicked, lazy, insensitive son of hell.

Oh, don't sugar-coat it, honey -- tell me what you really think... :teeth:

So lawyers are the high priests of your religion now, and expertise in the law the determinant of all ends?

No, but they are the people you should trust in a court of law -- we are still talking about law, not religion, aren't we?

Or are you getting confused? Sundowning, are we?

They who at best manage the failures and corruptions of society are now the prime protectors of its people?

A necessary evil when you're arrested -- although, granted, they are often closer to "evil" than "necessary."

Unlike you, I actually READ law school discussion boards(try autoadmit if you have a strong stomach), and anyone who believes that they operate under anything but simple profit motive is fooling themselves.

So how does a lawyer profit by avoiding a trial? Criminal lawyers get paid by the hour, do they not?

I'd ask you to stop shooting your own argument in the foot -- but you're continuing to amuse me. Do go on...

Why you sanctimonious, servile hypocrite! A man, having no previous criminal record, protects himself and his friends from a crazed lunatic, one of them a pregnant woman (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1461346/Five-years-in-prison-for-acting-in-self-defence.html), and you see fit to casually slander them like this!

Actually I was referring to you, not him.

If there isn't a single respectable man left in your country to throw you from the tower like the devil-worshiper you are, then may you and all who think like you die in the next riot!

Would you mind breathing slowly and counting to 20 before you give yourself an aneurysm? I'd hate for the fun to stop prematurely.

(CP, do you need any further evidence that Nathan Poe is completely morally corrupt, or should I encourage him some more?)

You think I need your encouragement? I'm sure CP finds you almost as amusing as I do -- who wouldn't?

(See, Cow Poke? Now you know I'm not playing a game with you -- if I was, it would look more like this :teeth: )

Cow Poke

February 22nd 2012, 06:04 PM

The difference is that we ALL choose not to believe the KKK... Surely you of all people know that calling oneself a Christian doesn't make you one.

So, why did you smugly present them as your poster boy example of "the equivalent Christain group" when I asked? Were you being facetious? Did you change your mind? Did you realize that was a pretty bad example?

Since I don't live in an Islamic society (my Middle Eastern neighbors notwithstanding) I don't get that much info on it (FWIW, my neighbors seem as shocked and appalled by that sort of thing as I do)

Maybe they've been westernized!

But why are you backpedaling? First it was that they approve of it, now it's "they don't denounce it TO THE SAME EXTENT"

NOW you're being disingenuous, Nathan... you have actually QUOTED my "condone/allow/encourage/approve/whatever" phrases. And the fact that I allow your argument means I'm BACKPEDALING? Come on, Nathan, if I disagree with you, I'm not reasonable, and if I try to be conciliatory, I'm BACKPEDALING?

Are you interested in honest dialogue, Nathan, or are you just wanting to play games and twist words?

At least you're admitting that they denounce it -- that's progress.

Again -- games... I'm not disputing that SOME Muslim clerics are denouncing terrorism.

The whole time we're having this dialogue, I'm continuing to research this. OF ALL PLACES, I'm looking at some interesting information from Barbara Boxer's office where she awarded CAIR for some "good stuff", then had to take the award back because she found out some of the very stuff I've been talking about.

Would you agree that Barbara Boxer is not exactly "FOX NEWS" material?

But not enough for your liking -- How many Muslim clerics have you listened to recently?

QUITE A FEW!!!! Like I said, I'm researching this while we're in this discussion, and I'm listening to some who have made clear denunciations -- SOME of those are documented to have ties to Hezbollah or Muslim Brotherhood, but I'm still researching.

I'd lay odds that the ones who DON'T denounce may very well be in it up to their eyebrows -- much like how the Christian pastors who DON"T denounce the KKK may well have a white hood of their own in the back of their closet...

And that's a possibility!

That's probably true -- Neither one of us are strangers to politicians who change their tunes to suit their audience.

Agreed, but there's a little bit of difference between politicians "packaging things" to get re-elected, and Muslim Clerics who are denouncing terrorism here, but collecting money in their mosques to send back home to SUPPORT terrorism. And before you try to make that "CP said ALL Muslim..... "... let's try not to be disingenuous, OK?

Now, you'll argue that this is religion, not politics, and I'll answer: Is there a difference here? Why would those clerics care about "Western consumption if not for political reasons?

What I "knew", but forgot, but am learning again --- I'm watching a lot of video by western Muslim clerics, and some muslims who have converted to Christianity... what I'm learning is -- and I welcome your input on this -- is that they don't SEE it as religion vs. politics --- Islam is an ideology that encompasses every aspect of their lives.

Cerebrum123

February 22nd 2012, 06:38 PM

Islam is more than just religion for the Muslims. It's politics,religion ,LAW etc. It has ALL aspects of life tied in just as CP said above in his post. Now not ALL Muslims are like this (I personally know one he's my neurologist ,and have several friends online who are Muslims) ,but Islam isn't just "religion" to them. I think you should go learn a little more about Islam ,before you go equating it to Christianity. My suggested place to look for information would be www.answering-islam.org ,but sine they are a Christian run website you may not trust them as a valid source. If you don't want to go there try www.islam-watch.org www.jihadwatch.org ,or maybe even just this place will do www.searchtruth.com. That last one is just a simple site that translates the Quran and Hadith. It's very hard to read that stuff (confusing mostly) ,reads like some kind of Shakespeare stuff ,only to about the 20th power.

Nathan Poe

February 22nd 2012, 07:16 PM

So, why did you smugly present them as your poster boy example of "the equivalent Christain group" when I asked? Were you being facetious? Did you change your mind? Did you realize that was a pretty bad example?

Actually, I was drawing a parallel -- My position is that Al-Qaeda represents Islam almost as much as the KKK represents Christianity.

Maybe they've been westernized!

Nevertheless, they're still Muslim, so my point still stands -- Islam is not responsible for the cauldron of violent death that is the Middle East these days. There's nothing inherently evil about it, else it couldn't be "westernized."

NOW you're being disingenuous, Nathan... you have actually QUOTED my "condone/allow/encourage/approve/whatever" phrases. And the fact that I allow your argument means I'm BACKPEDALING? Come on, Nathan, if I disagree with you, I'm not reasonable, and if I try to be conciliatory, I'm BACKPEDALING?

Fair enough. So you are agreeing with me, then? The majority of Muslim clerics do indeed denounce the violence?

Are you interested in honest dialogue, Nathan, or are you just wanting to play games and twist words?

Quite interested -- just checking to see if you are, too.

Again -- games... I'm not disputing that SOME Muslim clerics are denouncing terrorism.

And I'd change that "some" to "most." Of course, it's the ones who don't who make the news.

But it would be very foolish and disingenuous on anyone's part to accept the MSM's spin on it -- bomber-praising kooks get coverage; voices of reason do not.

(that's true of just about any religion/political situation, I would think)

The whole time we're having this dialogue, I'm continuing to research this. OF ALL PLACES, I'm looking at some interesting information from Barbara Boxer's office where she awarded CAIR for some "good stuff", then had to take the award back because she found out some of the very stuff I've been talking about.

Would you agree that Barbara Boxer is not exactly "FOX NEWS" material?

Yes, but without specifics, I'm not going to give your anecdotes or hers much weight.

QUITE A FEW!!!! Like I said, I'm researching this while we're in this discussion, and I'm listening to some who have made clear denunciations -- SOME of those are documented to have ties to Hezbollah or Muslim Brotherhood, but I'm still researching.

I wouldn't expect anyone on their payrolls (so to speak) to be an accurate or unbiased representative of the religion in general. Similarly, I wouldn't give much weight to a Christian Pastor who spend his weekends wearing a certain style of white hood...

And that's a possibility!

Right -- since we know that terrorist organizations (can we agree that the KKK counts as domestic terrorists?) wrap themselves up in religious rhetoric, we can expect a few of their members to have (bogus or authentic) religious cred. What better way to blur the line between their politics and their religious facade?

In the case of a KKK pastor, for example, we have a question of the chicken or the egg -- did the Klan get to them young, and then they entered the seminary, or were they already men of the cloth who, because of their own political or social leanings, fell in with a bad crowd? Surely we can't deny that even holy men can be corrupted.

Either way, it's bad news. Now, the difference between Christianity and Islam here is one of scale -- The KKK's corruption of Christianity is on the wane as they are -- they're not quite the force they were in the past (or perhaps they're as strong as ever, and have simply gone underground -- we must always be vigilant), whereas the situation in the Middle East has created a breeding ground for groups such as Al-Qaeda to get their fingers into a lot of different pies.

Agreed, but there's a little bit of difference between politicians "packaging things" to get re-elected, and Muslim Clerics who are denouncing terrorism here, but collecting money in their mosques to send back home to SUPPORT terrorism. And before you try to make that "CP said ALL Muslim..... "... let's try not to be disingenuous, OK?

Wouldn't think of it -- the issue, as we said, is one of scale. My position is, and shall remain, that Islam is not inherently evil, but certainly has, to an extent, been hijacked and corrupted by terrorist groups such as Al-Qaeda who, like the KKK, need religious overtones to add the illusion of righteousness and nobility to their political goals. Sound familiar?

Like a patient with gangrene, the goal is to cut away the infection without killing the patient -- the trick is figuring out exactly where the infection ends.

What I "knew", but forgot, but am learning again --- I'm watching a lot of video by western Muslim clerics, and some muslims who have converted to Christianity... what I'm learning is -- and I welcome your input on this -- is that they don't SEE it as religion vs. politics --- Islam is an ideology that encompasses every aspect of their lives.[/QUOTE]

Nathan Poe

February 22nd 2012, 07:21 PM

Islam is more than just religion for the Muslims. It's politics,religion ,LAW etc. It has ALL aspects of life tied in just as CP said above in his post.

Isn't Christianity the same way? It's not just something you do on Sundays...

Now not ALL Muslims are like this (I personally know one he's my neurologist ,and have several friends online who are Muslims) ,but Islam isn't just "religion" to them. I think you should go learn a little more about Islam ,before you go equating it to Christianity.

Surely you're not saying that Christianity is "just" a religion? I think there's more in common here than you think...

My suggested place to look for information would be www.answering-islam.org ,but sine they are a Christian run website you may not trust them as a valid source. If you don't want to go there try www.islam-watch.org www.jihadwatch.org ,or maybe even just this place will do www.searchtruth.com. That last one is just a simple site that translates the Quran and Hadith. It's very hard to read that stuff (confusing mostly) ,reads like some kind of Shakespeare stuff ,only to about the 20th power.

I don't have a problem with Shakespeare stuff -- whereas you might have a problem with this man: http://ffrf.org/about/getting-acquainted/dan-barker/

I'm sure the sites have a lot of interesting material, and I'll peruse them when I get the chance, but perhaps a religion's "apostates" shouldn't be the only source of information about a given religion?

Cow Poke

February 22nd 2012, 08:16 PM

Actually, I was drawing a parallel -- My position is that Al-Qaeda represents Islam almost as much as the KKK represents Christianity.

Come on, Nathan.. . we were not just talking about Al-Qqeda -- we were talking about violence and honor killings and other things.

Nevertheless, they're still Muslim, so my point still stands -- Islam is not responsible for the cauldron of violent death that is the Middle East these days. There's nothing inherently evil about it, else it couldn't be "westernized."

That reasoning doesn't stand, Nathan. Do you know for sure that they're fulfilling all the rules and edicts of Islam? And isn't this like the anecdotal stuff that you said you wouldn't believe? :smile:

Fair enough. So you are agreeing with me, then? The majority of Muslim clerics do indeed denounce the violence?

Absolutely not. MAYBE the majority of WESTERN Muslim clerics.. but neither of us has the numbers. Do you? Do you have any idea what percent of Muslim Clerics the Western Clerics represent? I'm thinking it has to be pretty small.

Quite interested -- just checking to see if you are, too.

I'm here to learn. I push, and if I am proven wrong, I can back down. Who was the philosopher who said, "how can I know what I think until I hear myself say it?"

And I'd change that "some" to "most." Of course, it's the ones who don't who make the news.

If we're talking about Muslim Clerics in the US, I might agree, but, again, I suspect they're a tiny percentage of Muslim Clerics in the world.

But it would be very foolish and disingenuous on anyone's part to accept the MSM's spin on it -- bomber-praising kooks get coverage; voices of reason do not.

And, using that reasoning, there must be PRECIOUS LITTLE Christian violence that can be compared to Muslim violence, or it would be all over the news. They EVEN tried to portray Tim McVay as a Christian terrorist, but he was even anti-Christian at times in his life.

(that's true of just about any religion/political situation, I would think)

Well, think about it from a news coverage standpoint with all the politically correct crap -- news reporters have to be REALLY careful how they portray any African-American coverage, for fear of offending blacks.... I think the same is true that there's this fear of offending Muslims in the US --- and LORD HAVE MERCY if you should even draw a CARTOON that Muslims don't like.

We DO have a large Muslim populatin in NW Houston, and I do have associations with some of them. I am not anti-Muslim, and, as I stated, my brother-in-law was a Muslim.

Yes, but without specifics, I'm not going to give your anecdotes or hers much weight.

But I'm supposed to place weight on your neighbors because they're KINDA Muslim? :grin: Besides, I didn't ask you to place any weight on it --- I haven't even finished my research yet, and wasn't PRESENTING anecdotes -- just letting you know I'm honestly researching both sides.

SPEAKING of both sides, there appeared to be a real furor within the FBI, because SOME top officials were attending some of these meetings, while OTHER FBI biggies were furious because they felt the presense of top FBI officials gave a sense of "coverage" to the meetings. For all I know, it was "intelligence gathering". :shrug:

I wouldn't expect anyone on their payrolls (so to speak) to be an accurate or unbiased representative of the religion in general. Similarly, I wouldn't give much weight to a Christian Pastor who spend his weekends wearing a certain style of white hood...

I'm not sure if there's something there I'm supposed to disagree with. :huh:

Right -- since we know that terrorist organizations (can we agree that the KKK counts as domestic terrorists?) wrap themselves up in religious rhetoric, we can expect a few of their members to have (bogus or authentic) religious cred. What better way to blur the line between their politics and their religious facade?

Hmmmm... i think you're equivocating againt... yes, KKK was DEFINITELY into domestic terrorism, and they weren't just making "political statements". But I think you're failing to understand that Islam is all-encompassing -- it IS religion and politics and government and culture and everything else. It's an ideology.

In the case of a KKK pastor, for example, we have a question of the chicken or the egg -- did the Klan get to them young, and then they entered the seminary, or were they already men of the cloth who, because of their own political or social leanings, fell in with a bad crowd? Surely we can't deny that even holy men can be corrupted.

Quite honestly, I think that was just pure racism.

Either way, it's bad news. Now, the difference between Christianity and Islam here is one of scale -- The KKK's corruption of Christianity is on the wane as they are -- they're not quite the force they were in the past (or perhaps they're as strong as ever, and have simply gone underground -- we must always be vigilant), whereas the situation in the Middle East has created a breeding ground for groups such as Al-Qaeda to get their fingers into a lot of different pies.

This is where I think you're not getting it at all ---- we weren't talking about Al-Qaeda until just recently --- I have been talking about the violence, honor killings, sawing heads off ---- that wasn't an invention of Al-Qaeda. And the difference between Christianity and Islam is MORE than just one of scale. Islam is an all-encompassing ideology. And, yes, I saw your comments to Cerebrum123, and YES, Christianity is supposed to be more than "Sunday only", but I don't know if you're going to find any Christians today that want to set up caliphates or caliphes.

I'm honestly thinking you don't know as much about Islam as you think you do. I'm SURE you don't know as much about Christianity as you think you do.

Wouldn't think of it -- the issue, as we said, is one of scale.

No --- that's what YOU said. I disagree.

My position is, and shall remain,

WHO's not willing to learn?????

that Islam is not inherently evil, but certainly has, to an extent, been hijacked and corrupted by terrorist groups such as Al-Qaeda who, like the KKK, need religious overtones to add the illusion of righteousness and nobility to their political goals. Sound familiar?

No --- I'm not going to let you keep dragging this to Al-Qaeda, which until RECENTLY in this thread, was not even a topic of discussion. And try as you may to tie KKK to Christianity, you ALSO said the whole world knows they're NOT.

Like a patient with gangrene, the goal is to cut away the infection without killing the patient -- the trick is figuring out exactly where the infection ends.

Well, it's best (and I'm not a (medical) doctor, nor do I play one on TV - but I DO watch House a lot) to properly identify the affliction before beginning the treatment. And, yeah, you're kinda saying that, but I think you need to be in the right operating room, first.

Cow Poke

February 22nd 2012, 08:59 PM

Just hold on.... Obama is reasoning with them --- soon, all will be well.

Reasoning with whom? The people in the slums? The people the French and British governments abandoned? You think Obama is going to correct their neglect? Wishful thinking, my friend...

I just wanted to make it REALLY CLEAR that my comment about "hold on... Obama is reasoning with them"... was intended to be facetious and sarcastic. I really didn't think it needed sarcasm tags, since I've been accused of getting all my news from FOX NEWS. HOWEVER....

For the record --- I believe that the longer Obama stays in office and follows up his apology tour and "reaching out" to the Islamic world and disastrous handling of the Iran situation ... the more problems we're going to have. If you look up "narcissism" in the dictionary, you'll find a picture of Obama.

BESIDES, he wasn't even BORN IN THIS COUNTRY!!!!! :rant:

(I'm baking cookies as we speak so I can entertain the Secret Service when they visit me :grin:)

Nathan Poe

February 22nd 2012, 09:22 PM

Come on, Nathan.. . we were not just talking about Al-Qqeda -- we were talking about violence and honor killings and other things.

Well, violence you'll find just about anywhere -- and 5,000 honor killings a year is deplorable, but given a population of over a billion, I'd say we're talking about a small percentage.

Alas, the media does love its sensationalism, doesn't it?

That reasoning doesn't stand, Nathan. Do you know for sure that they're fulfilling all the rules and edicts of Islam?

Do I have any reason to believe that they're not? I've yet to meet a Christian who meets all the rules and edicts of their religion, so I'm willing to accept a little liberalism, as it were -- aren't you?

And isn't this like the anecdotal stuff that you said you wouldn't believe? :smile:

Very much so -- good catch. Anyway, I don't think they'd care much one way or the other at the implication that they're not being Muslim enough for you -- they're Muslim enough for themselves; they seem happy enough.

Absolutely not. MAYBE the majority of WESTERN Muslim clerics.. but neither of us has the numbers. Do you? Do you have any idea what percent of Muslim Clerics the Western Clerics represent? I'm thinking it has to be pretty small.

No, and neither do you. So where are you pulling your MAYBEs out of? More anecdotes?

I'm here to learn. I push, and if I am proven wrong, I can back down. Who was the philosopher who said, "how can I know what I think until I hear myself say it?"

Dunno -- but I've had my share of disingenuous debate partners; apologies for insinuating that you were one.

If we're talking about Muslim Clerics in the US, I might agree, but, again, I suspect they're a tiny percentage of Muslim Clerics in the world.

Without the numbers, all we have are suspicions.

If ever there was a reason that politics and religion shouldn't mix, I think we've found one.

And, using that reasoning, there must be PRECIOUS LITTLE Christian violence that can be compared to Muslim violence, or it would be all over the news. They EVEN tried to portray Tim McVay as a Christian terrorist, but he was even anti-Christian at times in his life.

So was Saul of Tarsus -- look what he became in the end. (And no, I'm not comparing Paul to McVeigh, just pointing out that even Christians can be "anti-Christian at times in [their lives]")

Well, think about it from a news coverage standpoint with all the politically correct crap -- news reporters have to be REALLY careful how they portray any African-American coverage, for fear of offending blacks.... I think the same is true that there's this fear of offending Muslims in the US --- and LORD HAVE MERCY if you should even draw a CARTOON that Muslims don't like.

There is the PC nonsense to worry about -- but without sensationalism, Journalism is dead. Besides, we're in a perpetual "War on Terror," and every war needs an enemy -- Despite even Bush's post 9/11 comments that terrorism, not Islam, was the enemy, there's always going to be a scapegoat.

Within reason, of course -- you're right about the cartoons, but let's face it, people take their religions seriously. I've got a few choice thoughts about Jesus which, said in certain crowds, would probably land me in an emergency room. I'm sure you know the type.

Is it the same thing? of course it's not as serious, but then again, our society hasn't been racked by war, colonization, and foreign occupation. You've seen how certain communities get all up in arms when a mosque gets built in their town? Imagine a few Saudi army bases going up instead!

(Some people might argue that it's the same thing -- they have no idea...)

We DO have a large Muslim populatin in NW Houston, and I do have associations with some of them. I am not anti-Muslim, and, as I stated, my brother-in-law was a Muslim.

I believe it -- and do you think they're any LESS Muslim because they're not a bunch of honor-killing, bomb-throwing, head-chopping kooks? I don't.

But I'm supposed to place weight on your neighbors because they're KINDA Muslim? :grin: Besides, I didn't ask you to place any weight on it --- I haven't even finished my research yet, and wasn't PRESENTING anecdotes -- just letting you know I'm honestly researching both sides.

Glad to hear it -- as am I.

Which is why I hope we both agree that blaming Islam alone for the violent culture and history of the Middle East simply won't do.

SPEAKING of both sides, there appeared to be a real furor within the FBI, because SOME top officials were attending some of these meetings, while OTHER FBI biggies were furious because they felt the presense of top FBI officials gave a sense of "coverage" to the meetings. For all I know, it was "intelligence gathering". :shrug:

Spies gonna spy -- it's what they do.

I'm not sure if there's something there I'm supposed to disagree with. :huh:

I hope there's not -- surely we can agree once in a while?

Hmmmm... i think you're equivocating againt... yes, KKK was DEFINITELY into domestic terrorism, and they weren't just making "political statements".

Terrorism is always a political statement -- Remember, not every "statement" is made in words -- actions speak louder, and all that.

But I think you're failing to understand that Islam is all-encompassing -- it IS religion and politics and government and culture and everything else. It's an ideology.

And Christianity isn't? And Judaism isn't? A religion isn't what a person does once a week at the church or temple, it's who they are.

America has a system of rules in place to attempt to keep religious ideology on a personal level, and out of public/government affairs -- the "wall of separation," right or wrong, exists.

Now, there are certain elements in this country (I'm thinking the more dominionist Christian ideologies) who would love to have that wall torn down. The problem is, they don't realize that wall protects them as much as it protects heathens like me from them. Any cracks or loopholes in that wall can be exploited by anyone.

But I digress.

Quite honestly, I think that was just pure racism.

How so? No priest, pastor, minister, etc., is above temptation or corruption, is he?

A white pastor can be seduced by the KKK, or a black minister can fall for Black-Pantherish rhetoric, and before you know it, they're either preaching it openly from the pulpit, or in more subtle ways. Race has nothing to do with it; I was just continuing with the KKK example.

Such thinking is a perversion of the religious message, but that doesn't mean people (even educated ones) won't fall for it.

This is where I think you're not getting it at all ---- we weren't talking about Al-Qaeda until just recently --- I have been talking about the violence, honor killings, sawing heads off ---- that wasn't an invention of Al-Qaeda. And the difference between Christianity and Islam is MORE than just one of scale.

And as long as we're talking about scale, remember how many of the billion Muslims in the world AREN'T lopping off heads or killing their daughters.

I would give a ballpark guess that the number of Christian families who freak out (even to point of violence) at the "coming out" of a family member is a lot more than 5,000/year (the estimated number of honor killings worldwide, and remember that they're not all Muslims) -- but no matter the number, it would be disingenuous of me or anyone else to equate gay bashing with Christianity, would it not?

And before you say it, you know perfectly well that trying to slap some sense into your gay son before disowning him and tossing him out of the house is NOT something that gets UNANIMOUSLY denounced by Christians -- not by a long shot, and you know it.

Islam is an all-encompassing ideology. And, yes, I saw your comments to Cerebrum123, and YES, Christianity is supposed to be more than "Sunday only", but I don't know if you're going to find any Christians today that want to set up caliphates or caliphes.

Not in name, (except for the dominionists) but in fact, more than you know -- but as I said, we have a wall of separation which would make it impossible.

Even with that wall in place, look at the likes of some of the GOPs social conservatives -- have you heard Santorum lately? He's mild, because neither the Constitution nor the moderates would stand for anything more. The rhetoric is heavily diluted, but it's there.

Now imagine someone like that, only off their leash.

I'm honestly thinking you don't know as much about Islam as you think you do. I'm SURE you don't know as much about Christianity as you think you do.

Your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

Personally, I think you've missed my point -- OF COURSE the KKK is a gross distortion of Christianity -- no sane person (who's not already a klansman) would think otherwise. My point is that in the same way, groups such as Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are gross distortions of Islam -- the difference is, there are plenty of sane people who DO think otherwise.

Does their belief make them right?

No --- that's what YOU said. I disagree.

Fair enough.

WHO's not willing to learn?????

Fair enough -- I should have specified that I'm sticking to my position because I haven't heard anything to make me change my mind yet. Apologies for being too curt.

No --- I'm not going to let you keep dragging this to Al-Qaeda, which until RECENTLY in this thread, was not even a topic of discussion. And try as you may to tie KKK to Christianity, you ALSO said the whole world knows they're NOT.

And the "whole world" DOESN'T know that Al-Qaeda isn't Islam -- but if I'm right, and they're not, then it doesn't matter what the world "knows" or "doesn't know." Truth is truth, regardless of who (if anyone) believes it.

My point is that you're taking the worst behavior that happens in the Muslim world and blowing it out of proportion to make it look like just another day in Islam -- it's disingenuous, and I know that you know better. As long as you want to talk about the worst behaviors, I'll continue to talk about the worst offenders.

Well, it's best (and I'm not a (medical) doctor, nor do I play one on TV - but I DO watch House a lot) to properly identify the affliction before beginning the treatment. And, yeah, you're kinda saying that, but I think you need to be in the right operating room, first.

Then we have to know the difference between the infection and the healthy tissue -- the problem is, as long as people think Islam itself is the infection (and, no offense, plenty of Christians are of that mind even without the terrorism; gotta convert 'em all! :teeth: ) not enough people are going to bother trying.

Cow Poke

February 22nd 2012, 09:43 PM

Just some quick thoughts....

Since you want to bring Al-Qaeda into the discussion, would you also bring all the other Islamic terrorist organizations into the discussion? Have you ever researched to see how many there are?

I believe we have agreed that the WHOLE WORLD realizes that KKK is not representative of Christianity, so I'm not going to respond to that straw man anymore, except, perhaps, to remind you I'm not discussing it. BESIDES the KKK, what Christian terrorist groups are there today? (Please note that Northern Ireland has been pretty peaceful of late)

I'm not sure that you responded to the notion that over 93% (97% in some studies, Hindu rounding out the 100) of honor killings were perpetrated by Muslims -- and that's only from figures where Muslims were not able to block the survey. It seems to be, with precious few exceptions, an Islamic practice.

Just a note that, in places like Sudan, Christians and Muslims are killing each other in an ongoing war, but I wouldn't see that so much as terrorism, by definition, as I would "war".

Just out of curiosity, what is your beef with Christianity? I mean, you're free not to believe, of course, and you're certainly free to disagree with its practices and teachings, but why such effort to equate it to Islam? Are you denying that Islam is an all-encompassing ideology?

Oh... one last thing.. you seem to challenge my reasoning that there are much fewer Muslim Clerics in the West than there are are in traditional Muslim lands.... are you just being difficult? Would you REALLY believe they are as numerous here as they are in the East?

ETA: Here's a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population) showing the numbers of Muslims per country --- wouldn't you agree that there would be at least some kind of relationship between the number of Clerics per Muslim?

Nathan Poe

February 22nd 2012, 11:20 PM

Just some quick thoughts....

Since you want to bring Al-Qaeda into the discussion, would you also bring all the other Islamic terrorist organizations into the discussion? Have you ever researched to see how many there are?

Why not bring ALL terrorist organizations into the discussion? You'll find them, I would think, in all sorts of politically unstable areas.

I believe we have agreed that the WHOLE WORLD realizes that KKK is not representative of Christianity, so I'm not going to respond to that straw man anymore, except, perhaps, to remind you I'm not discussing it. BESIDES the KKK, what Christian terrorist groups are there today? (Please note that Northern Ireland has been pretty peaceful of late)

key words -- "of late."

And if the WHOLE WORLD recognized that Al-Qaeda was not representative of Islam in general, would you finally agree that they are not? Or would a simple majority of the world suffice? How about two thirds?

Just so we're clear, how much of the world are you ready to disagree with?

I'm not sure that you responded to the notion that over 93% (97% in some studies, Hindu rounding out the 100) of honor killings were perpetrated by Muslims -- and that's only from figures where Muslims were not able to block the survey. It seems to be, with precious few exceptions, an Islamic practice.

And that's only from figures where non-Muslims were not able to block it, either.

And I'm not denying that it occurs almost (key word -- "almost") exclusively in Islamic areas of the world -- that doesn't mean it's commanded by Islam itself. Religion is only one factor in what makes up a culture, and since the religion itself does not support the practice, it must be coming from elsewhere in the culture.

Just a note that, in places like Sudan, Christians and Muslims are killing each other in an ongoing war, but I wouldn't see that so much as terrorism, by definition, as I would "war".

And I would agree -- war is hell, after all.

Just out of curiosity, what is your beef with Christianity? I mean, you're free not to believe, of course, and you're certainly free to disagree with its practices and teachings, but why such effort to equate it to Islam?

Why do you think I have a beef with Christianity because I'm equating it with Islam? On paper, you guys are two sides of the same coin -- hardly my fault if you don't want to recognize that.

Of course, the key words there are "on paper," but that's been part and parcel to my entire point, hasn't it?

I offered you a thought experiment -- tell me what you think the worst-case scenario is, if all the hype is true, and you'll find the answer. Sure, I could tell you myself, but I think you'd understand it more if I showed you my answer in your own words.

No, I won't twist them -- if you do this little exercise for me honestly, I won't have to.

Are you denying that Islam is an all-encompassing ideology?

Of course it is -- as much as Christianity is.. or at the very least, as much as Christianity should be.

Oh... one last thing.. you seem to challenge my reasoning that there are much fewer Muslim Clerics in the West than there are are in traditional Muslim lands.... are you just being difficult? Would you REALLY believe they are as numerous here as they are in the East?

I said no such thing.

Cow Poke

February 22nd 2012, 11:24 PM

I said no such thing.

Good, cause it would be really wacky.

Onceametho

February 23rd 2012, 03:55 AM

So, you want a predictable God who does things the way YOU think they should be done. :doh:

Bad luck. You've lost all credibility re your infamous list. Whatever you say is not worth a grain of salt.

Cheers

Onceametho

February 23rd 2012, 04:07 AM

The rules did not change. The ritual responsibilities of Israel simply do not apply after the final revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. Phoney questions like this are what revealed to me that you have no idea what Christianity is or is about.

As usual, a big dodge of the question. Nothing phony about the question. You just can not answer or refuse to.

Ritual responsibilities!!!!!!! I see. So the God of Israel which you say is the same God of today, promoted stoning homosexuals, told children to kill their parents..Wow! Nice rituals!!....... (and I could go on forever) but when Jesus came along these rituals were suddenly all wrong!!!!! Hmmmmm! That tells me that the RULES have changed otherwise we might see you travelling through your neighborhood stoning homosexuals.

Also, you have no idea of my history. My eyes were once as closed as yours, but now mine see.

I suggest that if you wish to discuss this further Jedidiah, that you start another thread where I can also debate as this is really not the topic of this thread. If you do, please let me know.

Thanks and cheers

Cybelle Hawke

February 23rd 2012, 07:40 AM

Cow Poke

February 23rd 2012, 08:12 AM

(and I could go on forever)

Please don't.

Cow Poke

February 23rd 2012, 08:13 AM

Bad luck.

Bad luck? :huh: You are one strange metho! :lolo:

You've lost all credibility re your infamous list. Whatever you say is not worth a grain of salt.

Cheers

So ignore me! :shrug:

Nathan Poe

February 23rd 2012, 09:09 AM

Unfortuante family business (my mother in law is not well at all) has kept me from posting like I had planned regarding the situation of christians. I will tonight or tomorrow morning (24/2) at the latest come back to this.

In general, reading the posts from page 11 - 17, I notice how easily we all project our ideas, beliefs and convictions on this delicate topic.
When we look at the fanatic, fundamentalistic, (public) pronouncements of muslim leaders or followers, there is little doubt about their agression and hate towards the West (and that includes non christians as well), because of the political behaviour and the social standards of the West which do not comply with islam

And then we look at Christian leaders in the West and see the aggression and hate being spewed right back a them (diluted, of course; but still there) -- where does it stop?

Funny aside: When I was looking into the KKK during my debate with Cow Poke, I found an interesting article -- remember Pastor Terry Jones? He's the Florida preacher who wanted to host a Koran burning on the 10th anniversary of 9/11. Well, I found an article that the KKK had issued a press release denouncing his actions as "un-American."

Think about it -- how far off the deep end do you have to be when even the Klan thinks you're out of line?

On the other hand, when we look at the normally integrated muslims who live in our neighbourhood, or work at the companies we do, we see another type of muslim which is quite different from the violent 'profile' who dominates our fear and suspicion

Which tells me that that the problem isn't Islam, it's the Middle East -- or possibly a combination of the two. Think of it like chemistry -- two chemicals, each one harmless enough by itself, but combine them and the resulting mixture blows up in your face.

It seems to me that we are left with one question:

Do we have reason enough to throw overboard the idea of a peaceful and tolerant muslim, as that perhaps is a mask, given the evidence of such hostile behaviour towards christians in muslim dominated countries?

Seems to me that your one question leaves me with three more:

If we do as you suggest, would that mean that every single peaceful and tolerant Muslim that we all know personally is actually some sort of stealth jihadist waiting for the chance to go off?

Shall we treat them all as such?

If we do, and they finally do go off because of it, will you say that you were right all along?

Treat a man like a monster; don't be surprised if he becomes one.

Can we believe the peaceful muslim we know and can rely on a concept that the agressive muslim is real but should not be regarded upon as the dominating component in the muslim world?

This might sound a little too liberal for your tastes, but what if everyone -- Christian and Muslim alike -- stopped thinking about it in terms of "the Muslim world," or "The Christian world," and thought of it simply as "the world"?

People will do anything to defend "their" world -- they do it, and to a much lesser extent (so far) we do it. Try building a mosque in certain neighborhoods in this supposedly "secular" country and see what happens.

Following this concept, the question remains: why are christians then being worldwide murdered by muslims?

Like I said, "their" world; "our" world. And yet, it's not quite as "worldwide" as all that -- Here in the US, where the laws are secular (and more importantly, enforced), we don't see Christians being murdered by Muslims -- well, I'm sure it happens, but around here, everybody's being murdered by somebody; you're more likely to be killed for being gay than for being Christian.

What most disturbs me in this whole situation where christians are being murdered, is that they do not find protection from the authorities although they are as much inborn citizens as the muslims, and that the murderings stay unpunished. So what is then to be expected from muslim authorities who may not be as fanatic, even peaceful, yet tolerate the murdering of minorities (who all have in common that they are non-muslims) ?

History has an ugly habit of repeating itself -- the players change, the drama stays the same.

Here in the US, up until not too long ago, it was blacks and whites. Many a young black man was found with a bullet in his back and "natural causes" listed on the death certificate by apathetic authorities. It took a civil rights movement to change that.

I suspect the "Muslim world" needs something similar -- but it can't come from outside; they'd reject any kind of foreign meddling. The change has to come from within. Someone in the community will have to rise up and say "this is wrong."

So should the sahira law be implemented in the West (just for the sake of argument).... how will then the situation be for christians but also jews, bhudists, hindos, agnostics, atheists, homosexuals, women, peaceful muslims?

That was my question.

Well, I guess I am trying to figure out, whether the peaceful majority of muslims will prevail over the agressive minority of muslims?

If they do, wonderful -- problem solved.

If they don't, do you think peaceful Christians will fare any differently?