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Christian3
07-02-2017, 08:10 AM
What is hell like?

I agree with Dr. JP Morland’s take on hell. He was interviewed in the book, “The Case For Faith” by Lee Strobel. I found an article written by him on the Internet and I will quote from it from time to time. When I quote from the article I will put the text in blue.

1. Hell is real. Hell is probably not a location but it is a part of the universe. Sort of like going through a door into another kind of existence.
2. Hell is not a torture chamber.
3. Hell is separation or banishment from God. It brings shame anguish and regret. (gnashing of teeth), a state of anger or realization of great loss.
4. Hell is a place of punishment.
5. There will be different degrees of punishment in hell.
6. Hell is not a pleasant place.

The words and terms you read in the Bible, such as fire or flames, lake of fire, etc. are a figure of speech. What is figurative is the burning flame and what is literal is that this is a place of utter heartbreak. If you take the fire literally, it does not make sense since hell is darkness, but if there are flames of fire, they would produce light.

The Greek word for "hell" is the word Gehenna. It's used twelve times in the New Testament, once by James and eleven times by Jesus. Gehenna was the name of the city dump outside of Jerusalem. It was in the Valley of Hinnom south of the city and in Jesus' day it burned constantly, 24/7, with the garbage that was thrown into it every day through the Dung Gate. It was the place where thousands of dead carcasses were thrown each week from the temple sacrifices. And worms fed off the fat and blood of those carcasses. And the constant flow of refuse kept the worms ever living and the fires never dying. It was the place where the bodies of executed criminals were thrown. Jesus would have been thrown on that smoldering pile if Joseph of Arimathea hadn't stepped forward and rescued his body from the cross. Gehenna was foul. Jesus took the worst place he knew on earth and used it as a description of hell.

First, hell is not a torture chamber. God doesn't torture people in hell. He's not like the bad boy in Toy Story who loved to dismember dolls and blow up toys. God's not like some spoiled child who says, "If I don't get my own way, I'm going to make you pay." Now don't get me wrong, hell is hell. It's a horrible place, which is why Jesus used horrific imagery to describe it.


In the New Testament the Christ is described as returning with a sword in His mouth. Will Jesus come with a literal sword in His mouth. No. The sword stands for the Word of God coming in judgment.

The Bible tells us in Hebrews 12:29
Hebrews 12:29
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”[a]
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 12:29 Deut. 4:24

Deuteronomy 4:24
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Yet no one believes God is a cosmic Bunsen burner. The “consuming fire” is imagery and is a way of saying that God is a God of judgment.

Moreland says it would be immoral for God to force us into heaven, because it would go against our freedom to choose and that would be dehumanizing. That would strip us of the dignity of making our own decision and would treat us like a means to an end. It would be unloving for God to force people to accept heaven if they didn't really want God. So when God says, "You make the choice," he's giving us respect and dignity.

Hell honors our free choice. Hell honors our intrinsic value. Strobel asked Moreland why God punishes us for eternity? Why doesn't he just snuff us out and put us out of our misery? In Matthew 25 Jesus says, Go away to eternal punishment.

In Daniel 12:2 God says, Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Forever is a long time to be punished.

Eternal punishment is another way that God honors his creation. Every human being is created in the image of God. We all have worth and intrinsic value in God's eyes. So again, it would be immoral for God to just snuff us out and annihilate us.

Hell will forever be a monument to the value of human life and the value of human choice. It's God's divine quarantine where he says two things, "First, I respect your freedom of choice enough not to force you into my heaven and give you what you want. And second, I value the image of God in you so much, I will not annihilate you and snuff out your life." "In the final analysis," Moreland says, "hell is the only morally legitimate option."

Hell is not a torture chamber. Hell honors God's creation. And third, hell honors God. Hell honors God's love, because it gives a person what they want, a place to go where God is not. Hell honors God's justice, because it gives a person what they deserve. One of God's good attributes is his justice. God is perfectly fair. If he wasn't, then he wouldn't be loving.

I have to warn you guys I can run pretty fast if you start to throw stones at me after posting this masterpiece.

hedrick
07-02-2017, 08:41 AM
Most of the figures of speech are taken from the OT, where they speak of death or destruction.

Your description of Dan 12:2 is misleading. It doesn't speak of punishment that goes on forever, but eternal shame and contempt.

Cerebrum123
07-02-2017, 02:31 PM
Most of the figures of speech are taken from the OT, where they speak of death or destruction.

Your description of Dan 12:2 is misleading. It doesn't speak of punishment that goes on forever, but eternal shame and contempt.

Eternal shame would be an unending punishment.

KingsGambit
07-02-2017, 05:15 PM
There are no sources from any time earlier than the Middle Ages that suggest that Gehenna was a garbage dump, although this has become a popular myth.

The only other thing I want to say is that though Moreland (and I think Hank Hanegraaf) frequently says that it would be immoral for God to snuff people out, this is philosophical speculation that accounts to telling God what it would or would not be moral for Him to do, which is a big no-no. The question is what Scripture says about what God will do, not what we think God should do, and given that death is frequently linked as a punishment for sin in the Bible as far back as Genesis 3, this seems a hard case to make by itself. It may well be the case that God does grant everybody immortality in death but that case needs to be made in more detail.

KingsGambit
07-02-2017, 09:23 PM
On a personal/pastoral level, I tend to discourage people from imagining what hell is like. It's not good for your mental health.

Sparko
07-03-2017, 04:47 AM
all I know is it is someplace nobody wants to spend eternity in

Christian3
07-03-2017, 04:48 AM
Most people when thinking of hell think it is a place of physical punishment.

I find it hard to believe that a loving and compassionate God would punish people physically.

Most people worry about those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior. What happens to them? What happens to people who have been lied to? Who don't believe Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead?

Most of these people spend their lives believing in God, praying to Him, doing good works.

Abraham asked God: "The Judge of all the earth will do what is right, won't he?"

In this case, I think the loving and compassionate thing to do is let them go back to dust never knowing that they made a mistake.

Cerebrum123
07-03-2017, 05:04 AM
Most people when thinking of hell think it is a place of physical punishment.

I find it hard to believe that a loving and compassionate God would punish people physically.

Most people worry about those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior. What happens to them? What happens to people who have been lied to? Who don't believe Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead?

Most of these people spend their lives believing in God, praying to Him, doing good works.

Abraham asked God: "The Judge of all the earth will do what is right, won't he?"

In this case, I think the loving and compassionate thing to do is let them go back to dust never knowing that they made a mistake.

Annas and Saphira being struck dead, the Philistine tumors, bear attacks, global flood, 10 plagues of Egypt etc. I don't see any evidence in the Bible that supports that God wouldn't use physical punishment, and a lot that shows He's used it in the past.

Christian3
07-03-2017, 05:19 AM
Annas and Saphira being struck dead, the Philistine tumors, bear attacks, global flood, 10 plagues of Egypt etc. I don't see any evidence in the Bible that supports that God wouldn't use physical punishment, and a lot that shows He's used it in the past.

I asked a Muslim about what hell is like in Islam and was told that a body's skin would be burned off and then a new skin would grow and it would be burned off and this would go on for all eternity.

I just got this from the Internet about hell in Islam:

The Qur'an Says ...

Fill Hell If Allah had willed he could have given everyone true guidance, but the word of Allah is that he will fill Hell with men and genies (32:13, 11:119, 7:18).

Fire The wicked will burn in Hell (82:14). The fire is kindled by Allah and will be chest high, vaulted above them and surrounding them in columns (104:6-9). On the Day of Judgment, people will be shoved into the fire of Hell as they are told that it is the fire they denied existed and they will burn there as a result of their deeds (52:11-16).

Drink The unbelievers on Judgment Day will be given boiling water to drink (88:5).

Food The only food will be “dari” (a bitter and thorny plant which looks and smells bad). It will not satisfy their hunger (88:6). The only food will be the filth, which comes from the washing of wounds (69:36). Their food will be from the Zaqqum tree which grows on the edge of Hell with fruit resembling the devil’s head on which they will eat their fill, drink boiling water and be thrown back into Hell (37:62-68).

Chains People will be made to march in chains seventy cubits long (69:32). Those that disagree with any of the Scriptures (Bible or Qur'an) that the apostles have been given will have shackles put on their necks and be dragged through boiling water and thrown into fire on the Judgment Day (40:69-72). They will be chained together and thrown in a narrow place where they will beg for death (25:13).

Mocking Questions The sinners will be questioned by those in the garden Paradise, “What did you do to be sent to Hell?” The answer will be that they did not pray or feed the hungry, gossiped and denied belief in the Day of Judgment (74:40-46). The occupants of Paradise will mock those in Hell (7:44-50).

Never Ending The torment will never stop nor will those in Hell ever be reprieved (16:85).

Beaten by Angels When an unbeliever dies, angels carry off his soul as they beat him in the face and across his back saying, “Taste the torment of Hell’s fire” (8:50).

Rods of Iron The unbelievers will be whipped with rods of iron (22:21).

Christian3
07-03-2017, 05:20 AM
On a personal/pastoral level, I tend to discourage people from imagining what hell is like. It's not good for your mental health.

People will think of it anyway. They imagine what heaven will be like and "hell" is the alternative.

Jedidiah
07-03-2017, 08:24 AM
Most people when thinking of hell think it is a place of physical punishment.

I find it hard to believe that a loving and compassionate God would punish people physically.

Most people worry about those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior. What happens to them? What happens to people who have been lied to? Who don't believe Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead?

Most of these people spend their lives believing in God, praying to Him, doing good works.

Abraham asked God: "The Judge of all the earth will do what is right, won't he?"

In this case, I think the loving and compassionate thing to do is let them go back to dust never knowing that they made a mistake.

The important part of this post is the bolded portion. We do not have the capacity to KNOW what God will do, but we can trust Him.

Christian3
07-03-2017, 10:08 AM
The important part of this post is the bolded portion. We do not have the capacity to KNOW what God will do, but we can trust Him.

Of course. We haven't had a person from hell emailing us to tell us what hell is like.

KingsGambit
07-03-2017, 04:28 PM
Annas and Saphira being struck dead, the Philistine tumors, bear attacks, global flood, 10 plagues of Egypt etc. I don't see any evidence in the Bible that supports that God wouldn't use physical punishment, and a lot that shows He's used it in the past.

Yes, this goes along with what I was saying earlier in the thread about not presuming to claim what is and isn't moral for God to do.

Jesus even used a metaphor of corporal punishment in Luke 12:47-48.

Obsidian
07-03-2017, 09:54 PM
I think the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus shows convincingly that there is physical punishment involved. However, it's likely that there are gradations in hell, and it's also likely that the Rich Man in that story was on the worse end of the scale.

Christian3
07-04-2017, 05:43 AM
I think the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus shows convincingly that there is physical punishment involved. However, it's likely that there are gradations in hell, and it's also likely that the Rich Man in that story was on the worse end of the scale.

CARM has an article on the different degrees of punishment in hell:

https://carm.org/questions/other-questions/are-there-different-degrees-punishment-hell

To me a mental punishment would be greater than a physical punishment -- knowing I made a mistake and it was too late to do anything about it.

Cerebrum123
07-04-2017, 06:10 AM
CARM has an article on the different degrees of punishment in hell:

https://carm.org/questions/other-questions/are-there-different-degrees-punishment-hell

To me a mental punishment would be greater than a physical punishment -- knowing I made a mistake and it was too late to do anything about it.

I am in intense physical pain every day, and I can tell you that emotional and mental anguish is far worse than any physical pain I've experienced. Having one on top of the other can get pretty close to unbearable.

Christian3
07-04-2017, 06:54 AM
I am in intense physical pain every day, and I can tell you that emotional and mental anguish is far worse than any physical pain I've experienced. Having one on top of the other can get pretty close to unbearable.

Have you ever done something wrong in the past and you still beat yourself up for it years and years afterwards? I can be really brutal on myself. We know we are forgiven by God, but it is hard to forgive ourselves.

People who listen to errant pastors, rabbis, imans, have a responsibility to check out what they say in order to know if it is the truth, so they have some responsibility for their choices and can't blame it all on their spiritual leaders.

hedrick
07-04-2017, 07:02 AM
I think the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus shows convincingly that there is physical punishment involved. However, it's likely that there are gradations in hell, and it's also likely that the Rich Man in that story was on the worse end of the scale.

I'm far from sure how literally to take parables, but if we take this one literally it doesn't quite show eternal punishment.

That parable shows the rich man in Hades, not Gehenna. It's temporary. That it isn't after the final judgement is clear from that fact that he wants to send a message back to his brothers, who are still alive and clearly haven't been judged.

KingsGambit
07-04-2017, 07:49 AM
If you wanted to take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus literally, it could not represent the final state of punishment. The final judgment would not have taken place because people are still alive in this life on earth within the parable.

Obsidian
07-04-2017, 10:14 AM
Yeah, but why would the final punishment be lighter and easier than the temporary punishment?

KingsGambit
07-05-2017, 06:06 PM
Yeah, but why would the final punishment be lighter and easier than the temporary punishment?

You're assuming that the parable actually does accurately depict the intermediate state instead of just being a parable. There are good reasons to dispute that. For instance, few people would hold that the saved can communicate with the damned. I don't see any more reason to assume it is a literal story than I do to think that Judges 9:8 teaches that trees can literally talk.

I'd be interested in doing a formal debate on this.

The Remonstrant
12-27-2017, 05:04 AM
I am in intense physical pain every day, and I can tell you that emotional and mental anguish is far worse than any physical pain I've experienced. Having one on top of the other can get pretty close to unbearable.

Whilst I cannot say that I am experientially acquainted with chronic bodily pain, without elaborating, I can say that I do have personal familiarity with ongoing psychological suffering.

The Remonstrant
12-27-2017, 05:15 AM
[A]ll I know is it is someplace nobody wants to spend eternity in[.]

Your assertion presupposes (1) the irreversibility of eschatological punishment, and (2) the deathlessness (i.e. immortality) of those who will be cast off into the Gehenna of fire. Universalists contest the former supposition; annihilationists argue against the latter.

Sparko
12-27-2017, 07:37 AM
Your assertion presupposes (1) the irreversibility of eschatological punishment, and (2) the deathlessness (i.e. immortality) of those who will be cast off into the Gehenna of fire. Universalists contest the former supposition; annihilationists argue against the latter.

Yes it does. Because there is no indication otherwise in the bible as far as I can see.

Rev 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Rev 20:10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Thoughtful Monk
12-27-2017, 03:11 PM
I have read about many different descriptions of Hell - physical suffering, emotional shame and regret, annihilation, etc. I have realized that no matter which is correct, I don't want to spend eternity there.

The Remonstrant
12-28-2017, 03:03 AM
[A]ll I know is it [hell] is someplace nobody wants to spend eternity in[.]


Your assertion presupposes (1) the irreversibility of eschatological punishment, and (2) the deathlessness (i.e. immortality) of those who will be cast off into the Gehenna of fire. Universalists contest the former supposition; annihilationists argue against the latter.


Yes[,] it does. Because there is no indication otherwise in the ible[,] as far as I can see.


9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” (Revelation 14:9–11)[B]

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

[* All scriptural references are taken from the New International Version (2011).]

For an expansive, up-to-date study which demonstrates the scriptural support for the doctrine of annihilationism, see Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment, 3rd ed. (Cambridge, UK: Lutterworth Press, 2012 / Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2011).

For a conditionalist perspective on Revelation 14:9–11, see Ralph G. Bowles, ‘Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment? Examining a Proof-text on Hell’, The Evangelical Quarterly 73.1 (Jan.–Mar. 2001): 21–36 (<https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2001-1_021.pdf>).*

I, too, share your belief that Scripture is finally determinative regarding whether a teaching is to be accepted or rejected – especially when the teaching concerns a matter as serious as the permanent state of a significant portion of humankind. I do not believe that the standard doctrine of endless torture should be abandoned haphazardly, on a whim, or primarily on emotional grounds. Personally, my shift away from the conventional view of eschatological punishment did not occur prior to studying the biblical and theological evidence for conditional immortality, but after.

In any case, I have no desire to debate the matter on this thread. My aim was simply to call attention to two of the fundamental presuppositions underlying the conventional understanding of the future punishment of the unrighteous. Perhaps some here will avail themselves of the resources recommended above and have their minds challenged.


* This essay was reprinted and included (with minor editorial revisions) in Rethinking Hell (2014). See Ralph G. Bowles, ‘Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment?’, in Rethinking Hell: Readings in Evangelical Conditionalism, ed. Christopher M. Date, Gregory G. Stump, and Joshua W. Anderson (Cambridge, UK: Lutterworth Press / Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2014), pp. 138–154.

Sparko
12-28-2017, 06:32 AM
For an expansive, up-to-date study which demonstrates the scriptural support for the doctrine of annihilationism, see Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment, 3rd ed. (Cambridge, UK: Lutterworth Press, 2012 / Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2011).

For a conditionalist perspective on Revelation 14:9–11, see Ralph G. Bowles, ‘Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment? Examining a Proof-text on Hell’, The Evangelical Quarterly 73.1 (Jan.–Mar. 2001): 21–36 (<https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2001-1_021.pdf>).*

I, too, share your belief that Scripture is finally determinative regarding whether a teaching is to be accepted or rejected – especially when the teaching concerns a matter as serious as the permanent state of a significant portion of humankind. I do not believe that the standard doctrine of endless torture should be abandoned haphazardly, on a whim, or primarily on emotional grounds. Personally, my shift away from the conventional view of eschatological punishment did not occur prior to studying the biblical and theological evidence for conditional immortality, but after.

In any case, I have no desire to debate the matter on this thread. My aim was simply to call attention to two of the fundamental presuppositions underlying the conventional understanding of the future punishment of the unrighteous. Perhaps some here will avail themselves of the resources recommended above and have their minds challenged.


* This essay was reprinted and included (with minor editorial revisions) in Rethinking Hell (2014). See Ralph G. Bowles, ‘Does Revelation 14:11 Teach Eternal Torment?’, in Rethinking Hell: Readings in Evangelical Conditionalism, ed. Christopher M. Date, Gregory G. Stump, and Joshua W. Anderson (Cambridge, UK: Lutterworth Press / Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2014), pp. 138–154.

wel i dont know if hel iz a litural playce of fyer and brimstown oar knot but I dew gnow that it iz nowt a plac i whant to vizit.*




*I just wanted to give you some more pleasure in correcting my spelling and grammar.

Rushing Jaws
12-29-2017, 02:38 AM
Annas and Saphira being struck dead, the Philistine tumors, bear attacks, global flood, 10 plagues of Egypt etc. I don't see any evidence in the Bible that supports that God wouldn't use physical punishment, and a lot that shows He's used it in the past.One could, I suppose, account for passages like these by saying that A & S died of heart attacks, and that the passage is a way of saying that because God is, in some sense, “behind” even heart attacks, that therefore, heart attacks can be regarded as a Divine punishment; but is that what St Luke, as an author a theologian, means to say here ? The point of the passage is lost, IMO, if it is not given full weight as a judgement passage, of which there seem to be several in Acts.

If there are such passages, this would agree with the theme in St Luke of Jesus as King. In the Gospel, St Luke interprets the Kingship of Jesus in the light of Psalm 72. In Acts, interpretation seems to be in the light of Psalm 2.

God as King in the NT is sometimes shown as Judge, activity which is bound up with His being King. The letters to the 7 churches, though Johannine rather than Lucan, are judgements on the churches in a book which is full of Divine judgements; so what is said in them is not far removed from this scene. Revelation and Acts both show God vindicating His Kingly rule by defeating opposition to it; and this is inextricably bound up with His vindication of His Messiah.

The Remonstrant
12-29-2017, 06:05 AM
wel i dont know if hel iz a litural playce of fyer and brimstown oar knot but I dew gnow that it iz nowt a plac i whant to vizit.*




*I just wanted to give you some more pleasure in correcting my spelling and grammar.

:smile:

The Remonstrant
12-29-2017, 06:16 AM
I have read about many different descriptions of Hell [—] physical suffering, emotional shame and regret, annihilation, etc. [—] I have realized that no matter which [view] is correct, I don't want to spend eternity there.

Yes, there is the heavenly kingdom to be gained and the Gehenna of fire to be shunned.

The Remonstrant
12-29-2017, 06:21 AM
There is a part of me that wishes that I could say that the Scriptures teach the eventual universal reconciliation of humankind, but I cannot find the teaching there.

The Remonstrant
12-31-2017, 12:16 PM
wel i dont know if hel iz a litural playce of fyer and brimstown oar knot but I dew gnow that it iz nowt a plac i whant to vizit.*


*I just wanted to give you some more pleasure in correcting my spelling and grammar.

Corrections for Sparko:

‘Well, I don’t know if hell is a literal place of fire and brimstone or not, but I do know that it is not a place I want to visit.’

Sparko
01-02-2018, 11:35 AM
Corrections for Sparko:

‘Well, I don’t know if hell is a literal place of fire and brimstone or not, but I do know that it is not a place I want to visit.’

Thenk kyoo Kynd sihr.

Bibleuser
01-03-2018, 07:23 AM
wel i dont know if hel iz a litural playce of fyer and brimstown oar knot but I dew gnow that it iz nowt a plac i whant to vizit.*




*I just wanted to give you some more pleasure in correcting my spelling and grammar.


This may help after your grammar is sorted:-

To go to “Hell” is to just go underground.

“In old English the word hell simply meant to hide or to cover - helling potatoes meant putting them into pits, helling a house meant covering or thatching it, etc.; the word hell was therefore properly used as signifying the secret or hidden condition of death. It had no reference whatever to a place of torture until that meaning was attached to it by the theologians of the Dark Ages.”-Restoration Light Bible Study Service, P.O. Box 16892, Philadelphia, PA 19142 USA

BU

Sparko
01-03-2018, 09:19 AM
This may help after your grammar is sorted:-

To go to “Hell” is to just go underground.

“In old English the word hell simply meant to hide or to cover - helling potatoes meant putting them into pits, helling a house meant covering or thatching it, etc.; the word hell was therefore properly used as signifying the secret or hidden condition of death. It had no reference whatever to a place of torture until that meaning was attached to it by the theologians of the Dark Ages.”-Restoration Light Bible Study Service, P.O. Box 16892, Philadelphia, PA 19142 USA

BU

Because the original bible was written in English, right? :lmbo:

The bible is clear that there is punishment for those who don't belong to God and are evil. Everlasting punishment. You can call it a potato cellar if you want, but I don't want to go there.

Bibleuser
01-04-2018, 06:36 AM
Because the original bible was written in English, right? :lmbo:

The bible is clear that there is punishment for those who don't belong to God and are evil. Everlasting punishment. You can call it a potato cellar if you want, but I don't want to go there.

To be tormented as a wicked person after one dies the person must still exist, but in another from, is this the case?

FIRST
WHAT IS THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD?
“Dead: no longer alive ….”-Oxford Dictionary

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
Eccl. 9:5
“For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all (“But the dead know nothing”-‘TANAKH’ Jewish Bible), neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.”

Eccl. 9:10
All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work (“no action”-‘TANAKH’ Jewish Bible) nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.

LIFE IS BEING (existence) - DEATH IS NON-BEING (non existence)!
Eexample: The first human Adam!

GEN. 2:17 states God’s punishment for Adam’s disobedient act of eating from ‘a tree which God had said ‘he was not to touch’ which was “you will positively die.”


Where did Adam go at death?

GEN. 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

NOTE: ADAM = “For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

ADAM DID NOT return to a spirit realm but back to where he came from, the dirt of the ground OR non-being (non-existence), thus as God said “back to the ground from which you came.”


SO DOES THE “SOUL” DEPART TO A NEITHER WORLD OR THE LIKE?
FURTHER LIGHT IS SHED ON THIS AT:
EZEK. 18:4
"Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die."

Ezek 18:20
The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.. ."

NO, THE “SOUL,” IT DIES, AS WITH ADAM and does not go somewhere else to live after death!


SECOND
WHAT IS HELL?

A definition of “hell” reads: “Hell -n. 1 place regarded in some religions as the abode of the dead, or of devils and condemned sinners. 2 place or state of misery or wickedness. … .”-Oxford Dic.

IS THIS CORRECT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE?


“SHEOL … Regarding Sheol, in A Compendious Hebrew Lexicon, Samuel Pike stated that it is “the common receptacle or region of the dead; so called from the insatiability of the grave, which is as it were always asking or craving more.” (Cambridge, 1811, p. 148) This would indicate that Sheol is the place (not a condition) that asks for or demands all without distinction, as it receives the dead of mankind within it.—Gen 37:35, ftn; Pr 30:15, 16."-It. Vol. 2 p.922


The Church of England made an interesting comment on hell, in ‘The Mystery of Salvation’ The Story of God’s Gift, A Report by the Doctrine Commission of the Great Synod of the Church of England p.199

“Hell is not eternal torment, but it is the final and irrevocable choosing of that which is opposed to God so completely and so absolute that the only end is total non-being. … Annihilation might be a truer picture of damnation that any of the traditional images of the hell of torment.”


N.W.T. N.W.T K.J.V.
Hebrew Greek English Meaning
Sheol Hades Hell The Grave
Grave



To go to “Hell” is to just go underground.

“In old English the word hell simply meant to hide or to cover - helling potatoes meant putting them into pits, helling a house meant covering or thatching it, etc.; the word hell was therefore properly used as signifying the secret or hidden condition of death. It had no reference whatever to a place of torture until that meaning was attached to it by the theologians of the Dark Ages.”-Restoration Light Bible Study Service, P.O. Box 16892, Philadelphia, PA 19142 USA



QUESTION

WHY IS THERE SO MUCH CONFUSION ABOUT HELL

VARIOUS IDEAS ABOUT HELL:-
"Hell In various religions, a place of posthumous punishment. In Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, hell is a transitory stage in the progress of the soul, but in Christianity and Islam it is eternal (purgatory is transitory). Judaism does not postulate such punishment. In the Bible, the word `hell' is used to translate Hebrew and Greek words all meaning `the place of departed spirits, the abode of the dead'. In medieval Christian theology, hell is the place where unrepentant sinners suffer the torments of the damned, but the 20th-century tendency has been to regard hell as a state of damnation (that is, everlasting banishment from the sight of God) rather than a place."-INFOPEDIA UK96, Hutchinson New Century Encylocpedia

‘History of Western Philosophy’ by Bertrand Russell p.257

"It is sometimes supposed that Hell was a Christian invention, but this is a mistake. What Christianity did in this respect was only to systematise earlier popular beliefs.”

What where these “earlier popular beliefs” that where used to produced Hell-Fire?

Egyptian
‘The Religion of Ancient Egypt’ by A.H.Sayce DD., LL.D. p.197
"It was not only the friends and followers of Ra [the Sun god] who thus accompanied him in his journey through the other world; his enemies were there also, and the horrible punishments they had to endure, as depicted on the walls of royal tombs, were worthy of the imagination of a Dante. … Fire-breathing serpents are prominent among them, lighting up the darkness for the friends of Ra, and burning his foes with their poisonous flames."


‘The Religion of Ancient Egypt’ by Professor A. H. Sayce pp.229-30*
Lecture X. The Place Of Egyptian Religion In The History Of Theology
"Many of the theories of Egyptian religion modified and transformed no doubt, and penetrated into the theology of Christian Europe, and formed, as it were, part of the woof in the web of modern religious thought. Christian theology was largely organised and nurtured in the schools of Alexandria, and Alexandria was not only the meeting place of East and West, it was also the place where the decrepit theology of Egypt was revived by contact with the speculative philosophy of Greece. The Egyptian, the Greek, and the Jew met there on equal terms, and the result was a theological system in which each had a share.”


THUS THE IDEA OF A BURNING PLACE OF EVERLASTING TORMENT ("HELL") IN THE AFTER LIFE HAS IT ROOTS IN PAGANISM & NOT TO BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!


THE “BODY” DESTROYED IN HELL
(See * for Greek words)

It is taught by various religions that “hell” is a place for the torment of a wicked persons immortal “soul” after their physical death, this is not a Bible teaching as noted below in the words of The Prophet Jesus at:-

Greek N.T.
καὶ μὴ φοβηθῆτε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτενόντων τὸ σῶμα**, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβήθητε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα** ἀπολέσαι* ἐν γεέννῃ.

N.W.T. Matthew 10:28
“And do not become fearful of those who kill the body** but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy* both soul and body** in Ge·hen´na.

K.J.V. Matthew 10:28
“And fear not them which kill the body**, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy* both soul and body** in hell.”

*J. Strong’s Greek Dictionary No. 622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

**J. Strong’s Greek Dictionary No. 4983 σῶμα sōma so'-mah From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.

In the above text from Matthew 10:28 we see:-

1) that “BOTH THE SOUL AND BODY” go to ‘hell’ to be “destroyed” NOT to continue existing all be it in suffering and

2) that the “body” can also go to “hell” so as the physical “body” can also go to “hell” then “hell” must be a material place for the materal “body” to be destroyed (it stops living). This follows well with the idea that the faithful Jews viewed Sheol (rendered as “hell” in some Bibles) as a place for the end of life or the of the “soul,” so the better understanding of “hell” as the Jew Jesus said, it is where all life ends; The Grave!

BU

Sparko
01-04-2018, 09:01 AM
To be tormented as a wicked person after one dies the person must still exist, but in another from, is this the case?

FIRST
WHAT IS THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD?
“Dead: no longer alive ….”-Oxford Dictionary

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
Eccl. 9:5
“For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all (“But the dead know nothing”-‘TANAKH’ Jewish Bible), neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.”

Eccl. 9:10
All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work (“no action”-‘TANAKH’ Jewish Bible) nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.

LIFE IS BEING (existence) - DEATH IS NON-BEING (non existence)!
Eexample: The first human Adam!

GEN. 2:17 states God’s punishment for Adam’s disobedient act of eating from ‘a tree which God had said ‘he was not to touch’ which was “you will positively die.”


Where did Adam go at death?

GEN. 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

NOTE: ADAM = “For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

ADAM DID NOT return to a spirit realm but back to where he came from, the dirt of the ground OR non-being (non-existence), thus as God said “back to the ground from which you came.”


SO DOES THE “SOUL” DEPART TO A NEITHER WORLD OR THE LIKE?
FURTHER LIGHT IS SHED ON THIS AT:
EZEK. 18:4
"Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die."

Ezek 18:20
The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.. ."

NO, THE “SOUL,” IT DIES, AS WITH ADAM and does not go somewhere else to live after death!


SECOND
WHAT IS HELL?

A definition of “hell” reads: “Hell -n. 1 place regarded in some religions as the abode of the dead, or of devils and condemned sinners. 2 place or state of misery or wickedness. … .”-Oxford Dic.

IS THIS CORRECT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE?


“SHEOL … Regarding Sheol, in A Compendious Hebrew Lexicon, Samuel Pike stated that it is “the common receptacle or region of the dead; so called from the insatiability of the grave, which is as it were always asking or craving more.” (Cambridge, 1811, p. 148) This would indicate that Sheol is the place (not a condition) that asks for or demands all without distinction, as it receives the dead of mankind within it.—Gen 37:35, ftn; Pr 30:15, 16."-It. Vol. 2 p.922


The Church of England made an interesting comment on hell, in ‘The Mystery of Salvation’ The Story of God’s Gift, A Report by the Doctrine Commission of the Great Synod of the Church of England p.199

“Hell is not eternal torment, but it is the final and irrevocable choosing of that which is opposed to God so completely and so absolute that the only end is total non-being. … Annihilation might be a truer picture of damnation that any of the traditional images of the hell of torment.”


N.W.T. N.W.T K.J.V.
Hebrew Greek English Meaning
Sheol Hades Hell The Grave
Grave



To go to “Hell” is to just go underground.

“In old English the word hell simply meant to hide or to cover - helling potatoes meant putting them into pits, helling a house meant covering or thatching it, etc.; the word hell was therefore properly used as signifying the secret or hidden condition of death. It had no reference whatever to a place of torture until that meaning was attached to it by the theologians of the Dark Ages.”-Restoration Light Bible Study Service, P.O. Box 16892, Philadelphia, PA 19142 USA



QUESTION

WHY IS THERE SO MUCH CONFUSION ABOUT HELL

VARIOUS IDEAS ABOUT HELL:-
"Hell In various religions, a place of posthumous punishment. In Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, hell is a transitory stage in the progress of the soul, but in Christianity and Islam it is eternal (purgatory is transitory). Judaism does not postulate such punishment. In the Bible, the word `hell' is used to translate Hebrew and Greek words all meaning `the place of departed spirits, the abode of the dead'. In medieval Christian theology, hell is the place where unrepentant sinners suffer the torments of the damned, but the 20th-century tendency has been to regard hell as a state of damnation (that is, everlasting banishment from the sight of God) rather than a place."-INFOPEDIA UK96, Hutchinson New Century Encylocpedia

‘History of Western Philosophy’ by Bertrand Russell p.257

"It is sometimes supposed that Hell was a Christian invention, but this is a mistake. What Christianity did in this respect was only to systematise earlier popular beliefs.”

What where these “earlier popular beliefs” that where used to produced Hell-Fire?

Egyptian
‘The Religion of Ancient Egypt’ by A.H.Sayce DD., LL.D. p.197
"It was not only the friends and followers of Ra [the Sun god] who thus accompanied him in his journey through the other world; his enemies were there also, and the horrible punishments they had to endure, as depicted on the walls of royal tombs, were worthy of the imagination of a Dante. … Fire-breathing serpents are prominent among them, lighting up the darkness for the friends of Ra, and burning his foes with their poisonous flames."


‘The Religion of Ancient Egypt’ by Professor A. H. Sayce pp.229-30*
Lecture X. The Place Of Egyptian Religion In The History Of Theology
"Many of the theories of Egyptian religion modified and transformed no doubt, and penetrated into the theology of Christian Europe, and formed, as it were, part of the woof in the web of modern religious thought. Christian theology was largely organised and nurtured in the schools of Alexandria, and Alexandria was not only the meeting place of East and West, it was also the place where the decrepit theology of Egypt was revived by contact with the speculative philosophy of Greece. The Egyptian, the Greek, and the Jew met there on equal terms, and the result was a theological system in which each had a share.”


THUS THE IDEA OF A BURNING PLACE OF EVERLASTING TORMENT ("HELL") IN THE AFTER LIFE HAS IT ROOTS IN PAGANISM & NOT TO BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!


THE “BODY” DESTROYED IN HELL
(See * for Greek words)

It is taught by various religions that “hell” is a place for the torment of a wicked persons immortal “soul” after their physical death, this is not a Bible teaching as noted below in the words of The Prophet Jesus at:-

Greek N.T.
καὶ μὴ φοβηθῆτε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτενόντων τὸ σῶμα**, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβήθητε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα** ἀπολέσαι* ἐν γεέννῃ.

N.W.T. Matthew 10:28
“And do not become fearful of those who kill the body** but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy* both soul and body** in Ge·hen´na.

K.J.V. Matthew 10:28
“And fear not them which kill the body**, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy* both soul and body** in hell.”

*J. Strong’s Greek Dictionary No. 622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

**J. Strong’s Greek Dictionary No. 4983 σῶμα sōma so'-mah From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.

In the above text from Matthew 10:28 we see:-

1) that “BOTH THE SOUL AND BODY” go to ‘hell’ to be “destroyed” NOT to continue existing all be it in suffering and

2) that the “body” can also go to “hell” so as the physical “body” can also go to “hell” then “hell” must be a material place for the materal “body” to be destroyed (it stops living). This follows well with the idea that the faithful Jews viewed Sheol (rendered as “hell” in some Bibles) as a place for the end of life or the of the “soul,” so the better understanding of “hell” as the Jew Jesus said, it is where all life ends; The Grave!

BU

Wow you have taken Cherry Picking to a whole new level. But then you are using JW material as your base and that is what they do so well.

BU why do you only accept verses that agree with you and dismiss any that don't? Don't you take the whole bible as truth, or only the parts that agree with the JW theology? I believe all of it.

Your verses quoted above are taken out of context. The one in Ecclesiastes 9 for instance is Salomon waxing poetic and feeling depressed about life. It is not a biblical teaching on the afterlife. For instance, a couple of verses earlier he says:

2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.

So according to him there is no heaven either. everyone just dies and ceases to exist, the righteous and the wicked. Even the 144,000.

Instead of just cutting and pasting JW material, how about you get a good modern bible translation like the New International Version and go read all of those verses in context?


---------------------
BTW, you need to cite any external sources you are using to make your posts or it is plagiarism and you can be banned. It is obvious you are using JW material in your posts without attribution. This is your official warning.

tabibito
01-07-2018, 05:15 AM
The Church of England made an interesting comment on hell, in ‘The Mystery of Salvation’ The Story of God’s Gift, A Report by the Doctrine Commission of the Great Synod of the Church of England p.199

“Hell is not eternal torment, but it is the final and irrevocable choosing of that which is opposed to God so completely and so absolute that the only end is total non-being. … Annihilation might be a truer picture of damnation that any of the traditional images of the hell of torment.” :egad: Strewth/strike me pink/blow me down with a feather ... they did say just that.



"It is sometimes supposed that Hell was a Christian invention, but this is a mistake. What Christianity did in this respect was only to systematise earlier popular beliefs.” Whatever its origin, Jesus endorsed the concept as valid. He likened it to a prison.





THUS THE IDEA OF A BURNING PLACE OF EVERLASTING TORMENT ("HELL") IN THE AFTER LIFE HAS IT ROOTS IN PAGANISM & NOT TO BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE! Iy see~. The Book of Revelation is not part of the Bible.



N.W.T. Matthew 10:28
“And do not become fearful of those who kill the body** but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy* both soul and body** in Ge·hen´na.

K.J.V. Matthew 10:28
“And fear not them which kill the body**, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy* both soul and body** in hell.” It would be a hard task to equate Gehenna with (the realm) of Hades, but even if the task was successfully completed, "is able" does not mean "does."


In the above text from Matthew 10:28 we see:-

1) that “BOTH THE SOUL AND BODY” go to ‘hell’ to be “destroyed” NOT to continue existing all be it in suffering and "We ... ? see??"


2) that the “body” can also go to “hell” so as the physical “body” can also go to “hell” then “hell” must be a material place for the materal “body” to be destroyed (it stops living). This follows well with the idea that the faithful Jews viewed Sheol (rendered as “hell” in some Bibles) as a place for the end of life or the of the “soul,” so the better understanding of “hell” as the Jew Jesus said, it is where all life ends; The Grave!
BU The record shows that Jesus said "God CAN destroy the soul in GEHENNA" (demonstrably a physical place on Earth). Just occasionally it is of benefit to pay attention to the detail; "CAN" and "GEHENNA" ... not "DOES" and "(the realm) OF HADES"
In Jewish thought, past and present, Sheol is the abode of the dead: the place where the souls of the dead abide/live. Significantly, Sheol is translated to Koine Greek as "(the realm) of Hades." To the best of my knowledge, not a single reference to Sheol unambiguously equates it to a mere grave.

37818
01-07-2018, 09:54 AM
Jesus' soul died on the cross (Isaiah 53:10, 12, Mark 10:45). And it was after words that Jesus died in His body (John 19:28-30, Luke 23:46). And in the resurrection Jesus soul was not left in Hades (Acts 2:27).

Leonhard
01-11-2018, 01:51 PM
There is only one time in Hell: Too late.