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KingsGambit
07-27-2017, 08:51 PM
An ultra conservative pastor is making waves online after publicly calling for imprecatory prayer against John McCain. While I think few would support this, it does raise the question of how Christians should treat imprecatory prayer. It does, after all, appear in the Psalms. I would personally side with the view that Jesus's ethics leave no room for it under the New Covenant.

NorrinRadd
07-27-2017, 09:36 PM
An ultra conservative pastor is making waves online after publicly calling for imprecatory prayer against John McCain. While I think few would support this, it does raise the question of how Christians should treat imprecatory prayer. It does, after all, appear in the Psalms. I would personally side with the view that Jesus's ethics leave no room for it under the New Covenant.

Given Paul's rhetoric in various places, notably Galatians, I think there needs to be some other way to interpret and apply those passages other than their being obviated by the change in Covenants.

KingsGambit
07-27-2017, 09:41 PM
Given Paul's rhetoric in various places, notably Galatians, I think there needs to be some other way to interpret and apply those passages other than their being obviated by the change in Covenants.

But the key word there is rhetoric, which allows for differing interpretations of the statements. I don't think this is enough to overturn a direct commandment from Jesus to pray for one's enemies.

Sparko
07-28-2017, 04:55 AM
can you give us a link to the story? I haven't heard anything about it.

In the bible when people prayed against anyone as an enemy, they were praying for justice when they were being oppressed. This happened in the old testament a few time, but in the New Testament Jesus tells us to pray FOR our enemies, to help our neighbors.

While it is still good to hold people accountable for their sins (as in criminals) we should also pray that they turn to God and become saved.

Jedidiah
07-28-2017, 08:32 AM
An ultra conservative pastor is making waves online after publicly calling for imprecatory prayer against John McCain. While I think few would support this, it does raise the question of how Christians should treat imprecatory prayer. It does, after all, appear in the Psalms. I would personally side with the view that Jesus's ethics leave no room for it under the New Covenant.

As we have pointed out to atheists many times, the fact that something appears in the Bible does not indicate God's approval. God never said that we should call down evil on our enemies.

Cow Poke
07-28-2017, 09:47 AM
My Momma always said, "be kind to your enemies because you made them!" :smile:

Sparko
07-28-2017, 10:04 AM
I still can't find the news story about this preacher. anyone have a link?

One Bad Pig
07-28-2017, 10:29 AM
Why is the pastor in question "ultra conservative" rather than "conservative"? Why is that mentioned at all? His political affiliation doesn't make his actions wrong or right; all it does is smear others who are labeled "ultra conservative" or "conservative" with the same thing.

Jedidiah
07-28-2017, 12:56 PM
An ultra conservative pastor is making waves online after publicly calling for imprecatory prayer against John McCain. While I think few would support this, it does raise the question of how Christians should treat imprecatory prayer. It does, after all, appear in the Psalms. I would personally side with the view that Jesus's ethics leave no room for it under the New Covenant.

Link.

Jedidiah
07-28-2017, 12:57 PM
Why is the pastor in question "ultra conservative" rather than "conservative"? Why is that mentioned at all? His political affiliation doesn't make his actions wrong or right; all it does is smear others who are labeled "ultra conservative" or "conservative" with the same thing.
Yep. There are the foolish and wicked in all groups - including all the political spectrum.

NorrinRadd
07-28-2017, 02:43 PM
As we have pointed out to atheists many times, the fact that something appears in the Bible does not indicate God's approval. God never said that we should call down evil on our enemies.

He gave Elijah the power to call down fire on two groups of fifty soldiers sent by a faithless king to inquire of him; only when the third group begged for mercy did the angel of the LORD restrain him from calling down fire on them also. But when James and John asked Jesus if they should call down fire to consume the Samaritans for their lack of hospitality, Jesus rebuked them (but interestingly, did not say they lacked that authority or power).

Jedidiah
07-28-2017, 03:44 PM
He gave Elijah the power to call down fire on two groups of fifty soldiers sent by a faithless king to inquire of him; only when the third group begged for mercy did the angel of the LORD restrain him from calling down fire on them also. But when James and John asked Jesus if they should call down fire to consume the Samaritans for their lack of hospitality, Jesus rebuked them (but interestingly, did not say they lacked that authority or power).

Elijah was given the power to defend himself for God's purpose. This was not just calling down evil on enemies.

KingsGambit
07-28-2017, 07:55 PM
Why is the pastor in question "ultra conservative" rather than "conservative"? Why is that mentioned at all? His political affiliation doesn't make his actions wrong or right; all it does is smear others who are labeled "ultra conservative" or "conservative" with the same thing.

I wanted to demonstrate which side it was coming from, as that is relevant (is it a leftist who hates all things Republican?), and "ultra" is to distance him from mainstream conservatives. I figured that would be kind to the majority of posters here.

There are no news articles as of yet. I saw it from an acquaintance who posted it and supports the imprecatory prayer.

Jedidiah
07-29-2017, 09:43 AM
I wanted to demonstrate which side it was coming from, as that is relevant (is it a leftist who hates all things Republican?), and "ultra" is to distance him from mainstream conservatives. I figured that would be kind to the majority of posters here.

There are no news articles as of yet. I saw it from an acquaintance who posted it and supports the imprecatory prayer.
This does not seem like you, KG. We do not even know who this guy is, there is no corroboration, and no way to tell if he (assuming this is more than fake new) liberal or conservative. And if this unknown man is in fact an ultra conservative, it does not seem to have any bearing on the issue at all. Liberals and conservatives both are subject to error (if this is indeed error).

KingsGambit
07-29-2017, 01:52 PM
This does not seem like you, KG. We do not even know who this guy is, there is no corroboration, and no way to tell if he (assuming this is more than fake new) liberal or conservative. And if this unknown man is in fact an ultra conservative, it does not seem to have any bearing on the issue at all. Liberals and conservatives both are subject to error (if this is indeed error).

I know somebody who is supporting it. The origins of the story don't matter. I simply want to discuss the ethics of imprecatory prayers since it does come up as an issue from time to time (such as when the Rev. Steven Anderson announced his prayers for Obama's death a few years ago http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/31/phoenix-pastor-draws-protests-telling-church-prays-obamas-death.html )

demi-conservative
07-29-2017, 02:08 PM
While it is still good to hold people accountable for their sins (as in criminals) we should also pray that they turn to God and become saved.

Personal approach of mine is to pray that God moves them to repentance, otherwise remove their evil from land!!!

Sparko
07-31-2017, 06:35 AM
I wanted to demonstrate which side it was coming from, as that is relevant (is it a leftist who hates all things Republican?), and "ultra" is to distance him from mainstream conservatives. I figured that would be kind to the majority of posters here.

There are no news articles as of yet. I saw it from an acquaintance who posted it and supports the imprecatory prayer.

so this is some facebook post or something? You made it sound like it was in the news.

Could you at least post what you have so we can see what we are even talking about? bleep out any profanity.

KingsGambit
07-31-2017, 06:39 AM
so this is some facebook post or something? You made it sound like it was in the news.

Could you at least post what you have so we can see what we are even talking about? bleep out any profanity.

The entirety of the post is "Impreccatory prayers for McCain this morning." No, turns out it wasn't in the news. I think I was confusing him with Steven Anderson, who is from the same state and has been in the news for imprecatory prayers for Obama.

Sparko
07-31-2017, 06:46 AM
The entirety of the post is "Impreccatory prayers for McCain this morning." No, turns out it wasn't in the news. I think I was confusing him with Steven Anderson, who is from the same state and has been in the news for imprecatory prayers for Obama.

OK.

KingsGambit
08-06-2017, 03:22 PM
So does anybody have any thoughts on the ethics of imprecatory prayer? If you don't like this example, was it justified when Anderson did it for Obama?

One Bad Pig
08-06-2017, 04:06 PM
So does anybody have any thoughts on the ethics of imprecatory prayer? If you don't like this example, was it justified when Anderson did it for Obama?
I'd say it's rather more in line with Jesus' teaching to pray that someone may have a change of heart rather than that someone have something bad happen to them.

demi-conservative
08-06-2017, 04:42 PM
I'd say it's rather more in line with Jesus' teaching to pray that someone may have a change of heart rather than that someone have something bad happen to them.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130312013034/random-ness/images/f/f0/Why_not_both.jpg


Personal approach of mine is to pray that God moves them to repentance, otherwise remove their evil from land!!!

demi-conservative
08-06-2017, 05:02 PM
An ultra conservative pastor is making waves online after publicly calling for imprecatory prayer against John McCain. While I think few would support this, it does raise the question of how Christians should treat imprecatory prayer. It does, after all, appear in the Psalms. I would personally side with the view that Jesus's ethics leave no room for it under the New Covenant.

It's actually very very simple. (Not talking about Mccain here but in general!)

If someone is trying to kill family, friends, or defenceless in society, I have no problems using violence to try to stop them.

Also, if someone is trying to kill family, friends, or defenceless in society, I have no problems asking Almighty God to take enemy out. Whether it is by conversion or hellfire doesn't matter much, really, and is anyway up to Him!!!

KingsGambit
08-06-2017, 05:18 PM
I have no problems asking Almighty God to take enemy out. Whether it is by conversion or hellfire doesn't matter much, really, and is anyway up to Him!!!

It should matter which. 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 state that God wants all people to be saved. That too should be our preference for any given person.

Darth Executor
08-08-2017, 04:19 PM
An ultra conservative pastor is making waves online after publicly calling for imprecatory prayer against John McCain. While I think few would support this, it does raise the question of how Christians should treat imprecatory prayer. It does, after all, appear in the Psalms. I would personally side with the view that Jesus's ethics leave no room for it under the New Covenant.

So God's morality changed?

tabibito
08-09-2017, 02:45 AM
There's a very good demonstration of how imprecatory prayer should be conducted in Acts 4¨29 -30

Rushing Jaws
09-09-2017, 12:10 PM
An ultra conservative pastor is making waves online after publicly calling for imprecatory prayer against John McCain. While I think few would support this, it does raise the question of how Christians should treat imprecatory prayer. It does, after all, appear in the Psalms. I would personally side with the view that Jesus's ethics leave no room for it under the New Covenant.One could be forgiven for supposing that that last sentence said something so blindingly obvious as to need no defence....

Rushing Jaws
09-09-2017, 12:22 PM
So God's morality changed?Revelation is progressive. Not for God's sake, but for that of His People. "God, Who of old spoke through the Prophets...in these last days, by His Son..."; combined with "Of old, it was said to you...but I say to you..." - there is change in both the manner and the content of revelation. Change in the Bible, both within and between the Testaments, is one of its most obvious features - and it is not just change, but progression and development, however fitful at times. Accounting for this theologically is less important than the fact of it. If this is a challenge to our theologies and Bibliologies, so much the better.

lee_merrill
09-09-2017, 01:59 PM
There's a very good demonstration of how imprecatory prayer should be conducted in Acts 4¨29 -30
There is also an indication of imprecatory prayer in Revelation:

Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
Give her as much torment and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit enthroned as queen.
I am not a widow;
I will never mourn.’
Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
See also Rev. 19, the first half of the chapter. I believe that imprecatory prayer is valid in some instances, Peter quotes from Psalm 69 (Act 19:20), Jesus said "I thirst" (John 19:28) so that Scripture (Ps. 69:21) would be fulfilled.

Blessings,
Lee

demi-conservative
09-09-2017, 06:10 PM
It should matter which. 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 state that God wants all people to be saved. That too should be our preference for any given person.

I want God's will to be done!!! We know He will burn some people forever, so again, let will of His be done!

Wildflower
09-09-2017, 08:30 PM
So does anybody have any thoughts on the ethics of imprecatory prayer? If you don't like this example, was it justified when Anderson did it for Obama?

Really good question. I think that Jesus redefined who the enemy really was--the devil and sin. These are the true enemies against which we are to pray. These are at the root of the human enemies...the root that He conquered. Now God's people are to pray for people who are ensnared by the enemy Christ has vanquished.

The weapons of God's elect are no longer carnal, but spiritual. Now we fight spiritual warfare for a kingdom not "of" this world...a kingdom that doesn't play by the same rules as the kingdoms of the world.

demi-conservative
09-10-2017, 04:22 AM
The weapons of God's elect are no longer carnal, but spiritual. Now we fight spiritual warfare for a kingdom not "of" this world...a kingdom that doesn't play by the same rules as the kingdoms of the world.

Yes, and one yuge spiritual weapon is imprecatory prayer!!!

demi-conservative
09-10-2017, 05:03 AM
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130312013034/random-ness/images/f/f0/Why_not_both.jpg


Personal approach of mine is to pray that God moves them to repentance, otherwise remove their evil from land!!!



We should pray that our enemies be converted and become our friends, and if not, that their doing and designing be bound to fail and have no success and that their persons perish rather than the Gospel and the kingdom of Christ. Thus the saintly martyr Anastasia, a wealthy, noble Roman matron, prayed against her husband, an idolatrous and terrible ravager of Christians, who had flung her into a horrible prison, in which she had to stay and die. There she lay and wrote to the saintly Chrysogonus diligently to pray for her husband that, if possible, he be converted and believe; but if not, that he be unable to carry out his plans and that he soon make an end of his ravaging. Thus she prayed him to death, for he went to war and did not return home. So we, too, pray for our angry enemies, not that God protect and strengthen them in their ways, as we pray for Christians, or that He help them, but that they be converted, if they can be; or, if they refuse, that God oppose them, stop them and end the game to their harm and misfortune

--Martin Luther

Wildflower
09-10-2017, 08:20 AM
Yes, and one yuge spiritual weapon is imprecatory prayer!!!

But not against flesh and blood.

Wildflower
09-10-2017, 08:27 AM
We should pray that our enemies be converted and become our friends, and if not, that their doing and designing be bound to fail and have no success and that their persons perish rather than the Gospel and the kingdom of Christ. Thus the saintly martyr Anastasia, a wealthy, noble Roman matron, prayed against her husband, an idolatrous and terrible ravager of Christians, who had flung her into a horrible prison, in which she had to stay and die. There she lay and wrote to the saintly Chrysogonus diligently to pray for her husband that, if possible, he be converted and believe; but if not, that he be unable to carry out his plans and that he soon make an end of his ravaging. Thus she prayed him to death, for he went to war and did not return home. So we, too, pray for our angry enemies, not that God protect and strengthen them in their ways, as we pray for Christians, or that He help them, but that they be converted, if they can be; or, if they refuse, that God oppose them, stop them and end the game to their harm and misfortune

--Martin Luther

You'll have to take either Luther or Jesus on this one.

KingsGambit
09-10-2017, 10:18 AM
I don't exactly take Martin Luther as a top authority on Christian ethics, especially given some of what he said about Jews.

demi-conservative
09-10-2017, 11:36 AM
But not against flesh and blood.

:no:

Flesh and blood are agents of spiritual evil!

demi-conservative
09-10-2017, 11:39 AM
You'll have to take either Luther or Jesus on this one.

Except that Jesus didn't say anything about imprecatory prayer, libtard!!!


I don't exactly take Martin Luther as a top authority on Christian ethics, especially given some of what he said about Jews.

Quoting Luther is to show that idea I posted here about either/or being false is something dating back centuries (if not longer).

Pray for enemies to be saved, else for God to remove evil of theirs!!!

KingsGambit
09-10-2017, 11:41 AM
Refrain from using childish insults like "libtard" or get out of my thread. Your choice.

demi-conservative
09-10-2017, 12:00 PM
:bawl:

Let me know when you have good point to counter mine (not holding breath for it)!!

Wildflower
09-10-2017, 12:15 PM
:no:

Flesh and blood are agents of spiritual evil!


Ephesians 6:12, "For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places."

2 Cor 10:4, "We use God’s mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments."

Mt 5:43-47, “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends,how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that."

Wildflower
09-10-2017, 12:17 PM
Except that Jesus didn't say anything about imprecatory prayer, libtard!!!



See post #41 above.

demi-conservative
09-10-2017, 12:20 PM
See post #41 above.

See all the posts I talked about how you can pray for enemies to be saved, and at same time pray for God's justice to come upon them! Like Luther!!

But no, you'll keep ignoring because you can't accept it!!! :no:

Wildflower
09-10-2017, 12:52 PM
See all the posts I talked about how you can pray for enemies to be saved, and at same time pray for God's justice to come upon them! Like Luther!!

But no, you'll keep ignoring because you can't accept it!!! :no:

On what planet is being loving and kind to enemies the same as praying for their death?

demi-conservative
09-10-2017, 12:59 PM
On what planet is being loving and kind to enemies the same as praying for their death?

In real universe, not fantasy on where you in, loving, holy God wants to kill all humans for evil of theirs, but also at same time want to save them.

So we can pray to Him to save enemies and also at same time to judge them if they don't repent!!!

Wildflower
09-10-2017, 01:04 PM
Anger issues, much?

Jedidiah
09-14-2017, 09:10 AM
The derail has been moved to the Padded Room. If you want to "discuss" the Complementarianism vs. Egalitarianism issue do so in the derail thread or the thread so dedicated in Christianity 201, not here.