This is just my opinion

[Allen]

I believe that Religions were formed to keep people honest. In the beginning of Civilization it became apparent that in order to keep order, men and women would need to have fear. They would need to have consequences for their actions. “If you don’t obey then God will strike you down!” I believe that words like that would really scare a person a few thousand years ago.

It’s our natural instinct to reproduce. Any beautiful lady will make any man think of sex and vice versa. One of religions main responsibilities was to bind one man to one woman. Why? - To stop the chaos and to change us from animals into intelligent man.

I believe that religion has served a great purpose for healing mental wounds. It is hard to cope with a love ones passing and religion gives us the strength to look at a passing in a positive way.

I also believe that it is harder to be an atheist then it is a Christian. It’s easy to believe in something that will make you think that you will live for eternity. It is much harder to face the very single fact that when you die, well you’re gone.

Religion has done a lot of good for people and it has done a lot of bad. While religion may have saved many of men lives, a lot of men have died for their God. Many religious people believe themselves to be better then people who do not believe the way they do. Although, I have found a few open minded Christians, the truth is that Christians are bounded to being close minded because of their religion. A Christians come-back for that would be that I am the close-minded one for not being able to open my inner-self and let a miracle in. My response to that is- I have seen this from every perspective, while your mind is only allowed to think one way.

Many of the greatest men are convinced that a God must exist. I don’t deny that possibility. I do however deny that possibility to be anything that we would ever know. A God would not come to this world and die on the cross for our sins and a God would not be as confused as the Christian God. In the Old Testament, sacrificing lambs were how you cleansed your sins. In the New Testament, it is very sinful to commit such an act. Why did that change and why did God have men and women doing something so sinful in the first place? How could anyone really believe that God got so angry that he flooded the world and killed every man and animal except for the select few that were on a boat?

If there is a God, then I doubt it gets mad and kills us when we are “Bad”. I also highly doubt that we would be his only priority for there must be limitless more just like us.

[Socrates]

And why should anyone give a monkey's about your opinion? Just a verbose fact-free keyboard drumming, a few arguments by outrage, and a complete inability to refute the evidence for the truth of Christianity.

You're obviously a misotheist who's so open-minded that your brains are in danger of falling out.

[Allen]

03-04-2003 @ 07:51 AM
Socrates:And why should anyone give a monkey's about your opinion

You are certainly under no obligation by me to care what I think.

03-04-2003 @ 07:51 AM
Socrates:Just a verbose fact-free keyboard drumming, a few arguments by outrage,

I am not outraged at all. In fact, I am very calm about in talking about this. I don't think that anyone can debate this topic with many facts. You may believe that what you think is that of fact, but it is not.


03-04-2003 @ 07:51 AM
Socrates:and a complete inability to refute the evidence for the truth of Christianity.

There is no evidence of Christianity being true. Get over yourself. :teeth:

[Allen]

First off please do me a favor and try not to edit after I have post.

As this was added to your post later-

03-04-2003 @ 07:51 AM
Socrates:
You're obviously a misotheist who's so open-minded that your brains are in danger of falling out.
Last edited by Socrates on 03-04-2003 at 08:01 AM

Instead you can simply post another reply, I promise. ;)


As far as your statement goes, well I don't think that I am any better than anyone else. I just believe that a religion will bind one to only being able to think certain ways- That being the religions way.

Also, to answer you tag-line, If you believe that everything that you say is always true then can there ever be a possibility that you will ever be wrong?

Socrates: tag-line
Protagoras: Truth is relative, it is only a matter of opinion.
Me: You mean that truth is mere subjective opinion?
Protagoras: Exactly. What is true for you is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Truth is subjective.
Me: Do you really mean that? That my opinion is true by virtue of its being my opinion?
Protagoras: Indeed I do.
Me: My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you, Mr. Protagoras, are absolutely in error. Since this is my opinion, then you must grant that it is true according to your philosophy.
Protagoras: You are quite correct, Socrates.

By giving you the benefit that what you thought to be true was true in you own mind, Protagoras was actually stating that your opinion was unchangeable. Only a fool would take that as a debate victory. Anyone else listening would have known that Protagoras was far superior.

[Sera Sixwings]

[03-04-2003 @ 12:51 PM] - Socrates:

And why should anyone give a monkey's about your opinion? My goodness. :no:

[03-04-2003 @ 12:51 PM] - Socrates:

Just a verbose fact-free keyboard drumming, a few arguments by outrage, and a complete inability to refute the evidence for the truth of Christianity.To what evidence of which truth of what version of Christianity were you referring?

[johnransom]

03-04-2003 @ 06:36 AM
Allen:

I believe...

This is hardly "just your opinion". It is nothing more than a rehash of mindless and prejudicial clichés. If it yields anything more than ridicule here, I'd be surprised.

[johnransom]

03-04-2003 @ 07:18 AM
Allen:
Also, to answer you tag-line, If you believe that everything that you say is always true then can there ever be a possibility that you will ever be wrong?

Socrates: tag-line
Protagoras: Truth is relative, it is only a matter of opinion.
Me: You mean that truth is mere subjective opinion?
Protagoras: Exactly. What is true for you is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Truth is subjective.
Me: Do you really mean that? That my opinion is true by virtue of its being my opinion?
Protagoras: Indeed I do.
Me: My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you, Mr. Protagoras, are absolutely in error. Since this is my opinion, then you must grant that it is true according to your philosophy.
Protagoras: You are quite correct, Socrates.
By giving you the benefit that what you thought to be true was true in you own mind, Protagoras was actually stating that your opinion was unchangeable. Only a fool would take that as a debate victory. Anyone else listening would have known that Protagoras was far superior.

Yet more careless atheistic reading. Socrates is not saying that everything he opines must be true; he is saying that this is what Protagoras' philosophy logically demands. Subjectivism is a self-refuting idea and is idiotic on its face. To claim that this is "superior" shows the vacuousness of your thinking.

[Allen]

03-04-2003 @ 01:59 PM
johnransom:
Yet more careless atheistic reading. Socrates is not saying that everything he opines must be true; he is saying that this is what Protagoras' philosophy logically demands. Subjectivism is a self-refuting idea and is idiotic on its face. To claim that this is "superior" shows the vacuousness of your thinking.

To put it very simple- A smart person will often let a fool think that he has won an argument. It's gets great laughs when the fool turns away. :teeth:

[Epoetker]

In that case, better to turn away and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. Turn awaaaay from this topic, Allen...

[Allen]

03-04-2003 @ 05:41 PM
Epoetker:

In that case, better to turn away and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. Turn awaaaay from this topic, Allen...

Since you say so, sure. ;)


The thing about being an atheist is that it doesn't bother me if anyone agrees with me about religious ideas or not. I really could care less. ;)

[johnransom]

03-04-2003 @ 04:44 PM
Allen:



Since you say so, sure. ;)


The thing about being an atheist is that it doesn't bother me if anyone agrees with me about religious ideas or not. I really could care less. ;)

So what are you doing here, other than trolling?

[Allen]

03-04-2003 @ 11:32 PM
johnransom:



So what are you doing here, other than trolling?

You are not the only one that has the right to talk about religion. Other people have rights too, even if they don't agree with you. ;)

[johnransom]

03-05-2003 @ 06:56 AM
Allen:



You are not the only one that has the right to talk about religion. Other people have rights too, even if they don't agree with you. ;)

:duh: Blah blah blah. No one has any rights here other than the board owners. What I focussed on was your irrational claim that you don't care.

[Jaltus]

Actually, we have set this board up so that EVERYONE has rights.

[johnransom]

03-05-2003 @ 09:58 AM
Jaltus:

Actually, we have set this board up so that EVERYONE has rights.

Strictly speaking, Jaltus, we have PRIVILEGES, not rights. But I understand your point. Allen was speaking as if I am challenging his general right to freedom of speech, which, given that this board is not run by the government, is an irrelevance.

[Jaltus]

TWeb rules #2, Flamming (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/rules/) states:

We recognize that the nature of spirited debate may include the use of satire, humor, and strong statements of position; however, gratuitous name-calling, bullying, stalking, or outright rudeness will not be tolerated. If a strong and potentially inflammatory characterization is used, it must be backed up as to the truth of the matter or will result in administrative intervention.
I think the name calling here is getting out of hand. This is a general warning to all participants. Please back down and cool off.

Feel free to continue the discussion, but drop the name calling.

Come on, kids, grow up.

[Believer]

WOW. I'm sort of ashamed of a few of the reply posts in here. Allen (like his topic stated) is just making his opinion known and he is opening himself to any arguments. If you're a christian this is supposed to be the perfect oppurtunity to help him out, not jump all over him!
So what are you doing here, other than trolling?

There's a reason for everything pal. He probably came here because he wants answers and he thought this may be the place to get them. Correct me if I'm wrong Allen, but I'm assuming that you're trying to take that one step further. You say you believe that God is a possibility. Are you looking for evidence to confirm that? And if so then many of the people who have replied to him are probably turning him in the opposite direction! Isn't it our job as Christians to help those in need, regardless of their beliefs?

I would like to try and answer some of your questions and respond to your ideas later Allen, but at the moment I am running short on time. I hope that I may be of some help to you. Talk to you later.

-Believer

[Timothy]

Hi Allen,

I'm a Christian because I believe Jesus of Nazereth was resurrected after 3 days. Not because I want to control anybody else. You go ahead and investigate and then believe whatever it is that you think is true.

[Allen]

I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church. I stopped going when I was about 13 years old. Church was just full of hypocrites. I mean we are all hypocrites, that is how we learn, but sometimes people in church can be too damn self-righteous. I honestly believe that I am a more compassionate person than ninety percent of the people who attend church. But in their eyes, I am the one not living my life right. I don’t need a God to tell me what right and wrong is. I know that and I also know the consequences along with the benefits from my actions. I don’t need to lean on a book to show me the way. I will admit that Proverbs is a very good book in the bible though. I think it’s one of the best books ever written, but the rest of the bible just seems like a fable.

But hey, these are just my opinions and my beliefs. If any of it bothers anyone then just don’t read it or say you disagree. Everyone, well most everyone’s opinion should be respected. I can and always do respect other people’s religious beliefs, but very few religious people can respect my belief. So many religious people think that they know it all and that you are less of a person if you don’t see or comprehend things the exact same way they do.

I will leave you with this-

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

It is appalling that some people will never see past their own prejudice (especially religious) and realize that good friends are so hard to find. You may have never known your best friend, because he didn’t believe in the same God that you do. – Those are my words. :cheers:

[Jin-Roh]

Maybe I'm not the first to notice it, but wasn't there a little bit of a harsh attack on Allen? :hrm:

Allen, you said that there is evidence that God exists. I personally feel otherwise. One of the things that I feel points to the existance of God is (opens a can of worms)the existance of the Nation State of Israel.

I also feel the Gospels themselves argue loudly for the existance of God.

I also think the completely naturalistic evolution is kind of absurd.

But of course, that's all just my oponion :thumb:

[wienerdog]

Allen, if I may interact with your opinion:

I think your argument commits the genetic fallacy. Perhaps the motivations for believing in God that you mentioned are how we discover him. I mean, if we live in a world where life is made easier by believing in God, why would this be evidence against God's existence? I think I can grant your arguments and still maintain God's existence and the validity and truth of the Christian religion.

[Believer]

Church was just full of hypocrites. I mean we are all hypocrites, that is how we learn, but sometimes people in church can be too damn self-righteous.

Unfortunately you're right.

I can and always do respect other people’s religious beliefs, but very few religious people can respect my belief.

True, but remember that this usually happens both ways. I know from my own experiences that most people are put on the defensive when they hear I'm a christian. Because of this most Christians do the same when they hear you're an atheist. By no means is that a good excuse, but that's how people feel. It's unfortunate.

The biggest thing that makes a Christian a hypocrite is when they think that they are self-righteous above other people. There is nobody in this world who is "righteous" because we all "sin" or do stupid things. The church is not supposed to be about self-righteousness or anything else to do with "self." The original purpose of the church was to spread the belief in Jesus the Messiah. Did Paul or Peter ever force their beliefs on anyone else? No. So why do we do it today? Why do we feel superior to those who don't have the same beliefs as us? Whatever the answer is it's not a good one because there is no one who is superior to anyone.


I honestly believe that I am a more compassionate person than ninety percent of the people who attend church. But in their eyes, I am the one not living my life right. I don’t need a God to tell me what right and wrong is. I know that and I also know the consequences along with the benefits from my actions. I don’t need to lean on a book to show me the way

You make a good point here. But most of the people who go to church are not Christian. Christian is probably one of the most over used words in the world besides love and hate. Because becoming a Christian is not a title, it's a birthright, a spiritual one.
Where a man goes on Sundays does not classify him as being Christian or not. It's how he feels and reacts in his heart that sets him apart. I hope you realize that though you are somewhat right about your right from wrong statement concerning the bible. Remember that the bible is meant to be just a tool, because everyone gets lost.

to be continued.....

[Allen]

In a Christian’s defense, I will admit that a lot of people are giving you guys a bad name out there.

[ryukyuk]

I have a question why does everything have to be right or wrong why no gray area cant we both be right without dissagreement cuz in my eyes this would be the object of a messiah not to start fights but to mend the disputes for some reason the whole disagreement thing falls into the fruits that they bear stuff

[ryukyuk]

i have yet to see anyone post anything related to what i have said not sure why you can pick on an aethiest but what about an ex minister not that i want to fight just mabe healthy debate:argh:

[johnransom]

03-09-2003 @ 01:21 AM
ryukyuk:

i have yet to see anyone post anything related to what i have said not sure why you can pick on an aethiest but what about an ex minister not that i want to fight just mabe healthy debate:argh:

:bonk: Oh look, e.e. cummings has joined us. What's your problem, though? We pick on tIll all the time.

[Epoetker]

I have a question why does everything have to be right or wrong why no gray area cant we both be right without dissagreement cuz in my eyes this would be the object of a messiah not to start fights but to mend the disputes for some reason the whole disagreement thing falls into the fruits that they bear stuff

This is just my OPINION, but...

Frankly presenting and contending for the truth of our views in open, vigorous debate is the only way we get close to what the real truth is. Attempts to dilute this truth by assuming all are equally right are fruitless and ultimately destructive. So....

Fight! Fight! Fight!
:fight: :fight: :fight:

[Socrates]

Socrates on Allen: Just a verbose fact-free keyboard drumming, a few arguments by outrage, and a complete inability to refute the evidence for the truth of Christianity.
Then the Blonde Hexapteryx replied:To what evidence of which truth of what version of Christianity were you referring?Obviously, the evidence of Christianity, e.g. the Resurrection of Jesus and the spread of this "Impossible Faith (http://www.tektonics.org/nowayjose.html)" (try to refute this article). All truly Christian denominations agree with the Resurrection despite differences on peripheral doctrines.

[Vorkosigan]

this "Impossible Faith" (try to refute this article).

I'm sorry, when I first read this long ago, I thought this article was a parody. If you look at the spread of Buddhism in China, you see analogical issues (many specialists have marveled that Buddhism ever became so popular there). They are not evidence of the "truth" of one or the other, but of the workings of a variety of social factors. This article cannot be refuted because its central premise, that "success in spite of the odds" is evidence of truthfulness, is a patent non sequitor. There's literally nothing to refute.

In any case, the key advantage of religions like Christianity and Buddhism or Islam (and to a lesser extent, Hinduism) is not the ridiculousness of their doctrinues, but the fact that they are missionary religions, and most religions are not. History has shown again and again that there is no belief too stupid for people to subscribe to, as the history of things like Scientology shows, and that if offered over and over, a certain number of people will convert.

Vorkosigan