Why not hymenaenism?

[ryanedwards]

I'm an ex-futurist. I've read a lot about preterism lately and see it all over in the Word. When studying what many like to call Hymenaenism (full preterism), the only thing I really disagree with is the stuff that sounds like gnosticism (resurrection stuff). Everything else sounds legit and really makes sense. I've read quite a few articles on them and the two reoccuring arguments are that 1. Jesus really did rise in his flesh (of course) and that 2.heterodox preterism goes against PCA (Reformed Camp). Besides that, arguments are really lacking. What do you think?

~rook

[Glenn P]

Today @ 10:35 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=349179#post349179)
ryanedwards:

I'm an ex-futurist. I've read a lot about preterism lately and see it all over in the Word. When studying what many like to call Hymenaenism (full preterism), the only thing I really disagree with is the stuff that sounds like gnosticism (resurrection stuff).

What is resurrection stuff? Do you mean the resurrection of Jesus, or the resurrection of the saints?

[ryanedwards]

Well apperently some believe there was not an empty tomb, and that Christ's body was not flesh and bones. That's what I mean by a gnostic resurrection.

~rook :eh:

[Glenn P]

Well you are right to reject that.

The concern of orthodox preterists with hymenaenism is that it denies the bbilical doctrine of the resurrection of the dead as expressed in the orthodox Creeds. Now of course the hymenaen doesn't SAY that he denies the resurrection - he has a version of it. It just happens that it makes OUR resurrection into a Gnostic version. The orthodox Christian faith has always, from the very beginning, taught that there will be a future physical resurrection fromt he Dead when the Lord returns in the same way that He departed, and every eye will see Him.

[ryanedwards]

I guess it all depends on whether the tribulation was around 70AD and the Lord came back ("immediately after that tribulation"). To me, Matt. 10:23;16:27-28; and 24:34 speak volumes. I just don't see a break of thousands of years between the tribulation (70AD) and his coming. And therefore to think that he came back then, does not seem heretical, but a belief strongly supported by Jesus, Paul, and John. But I know I love the Lord and just seek the truth, whatever has the strongest arguement. I just hate to see when emotional arguments hold the most wait. It's may be a bummer, but the Lord may not do things the way we would always want us to. The Jews realized that when they thought everything would happen literally. What do you think?

[Glenn P]

Here's a question that will help you see where you stand: Has the resurrection (of the saints) passed already, or does it lie in the future still?

[ryanedwards]

sorry about the spelling, I was in a hurry

[ryanedwards]

Concerning our resurrection, I'm not too sure yet, but if the Lord returned in 70, then there was a resurrection involved with that. For he came to judge; James 5:7-9. But there are 2 resurrections, and it is appointed man once to die, then the judgement right? If he came, he came to set the captives free and destroy the works of the devil. 2 Tim 1:10 says death is destroyed. :smile:

[ryanedwards]

:smile:

Can the tribulation and the coming of the Lord on the Clouds be separated?

[studyhound]

ryanedwards:

Concerning our resurrection, I'm not too sure yet, but if the Lord returned in 70, then there was a resurrection involved with that. For he came to judge; James 5:7-9.

Well not that’s not totally true, Jesus’ coming is an allusion to the Old Testament judgments of God. So his 70 ad coming was in judgment but not to the world. We still await a final judgment. Final rewards to the just and unjust. And as for your proof text that could easily be understood to those who lived under a Jewish persecution, see as how the whole book speaks of perseverance through trials.




But there are 2 resurrections, and it is appointed man once to die, then the judgment right?

you died then the next event in you life is Judgment, here’s a good example you go to the doctors office, sign in with the nurse and sit down, then you see the doctor. Now all that is true but you just didn’t mention the 45 min. wait.


If he came, he came to set the captives free and destroy the works of the devil. 2 Tim 1:10 says death is destroyed. :smile:

No it says he abolished death not destroyed it. Thayer’s gives a good def of the
Greek word to: render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative and: 1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency. So not yet destroyed but in active.



Studyhound

:studyhound:

[Eyeheart Pumpkin]

12-19-2003 @ 04:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=349179#post349179)
ryanedwards:

I'm an ex-futurist. I've read a lot about preterism lately and see it all over in the Word. When studying what many like to call Hymenaenism (full preterism)
Is that what Hymenaenism is? And here I was thinking it was just something to do with renewing virgins!

[Glenn P]

Today @ 09:02 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356559#post356559)
studyhound:

No it says he abolished death not destroyed it. Thayer’s gives a good def of the
Greek word to: render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative and: 1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency. So not yet destroyed but in active.

Right. Paul (who wrote that verse to Timothy) taught that death's victory will be finally snatched away in the future, that death is the LAST enemy that will be done away with. Since not all of Christ's enemies have been done away with yet, it follows that death has not been done away with. This is all spelt out in 1 Corinthians 15.

[InChristAlways]

Right. Paul (who wrote that verse to Timothy) taught that death's victory will be finally snatched away in the future, that death is the LAST enemy that will be done away with. Since not all of Christ's enemies have been done away with yet, it follows that death has not been done away with. This is all spelt out in 1 Corinthians 15.
The enemies of Paul and Christ were the corrupt jewish rulers/priests of the house of Judah/Levi in Jerusalem, the "synagogue of satan" in revelation.
Look what happened to the sadducees after Jeruselem, PROCLAIMED AS GOD'S enemy IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT and became His footstool OF JUDGEMENT
The Sadducees rejected the concept of resurrection, because it was considered of pagan foreign origin. They followed the ancient Jewish beliefs about Sheol as they were before Greek influence modified them. They also did not believe in fate, in demons or in angels. The Sadducees believed that God would reward the righteous and punish the wicked during their lifetime on earth. They were in charge of the Temple and its rituals. They felt that as long as animal sacrifices and other rituals were continued in Jerusalem, that Israel would continue without major disasters. After the Roman army attacked and destroyed the Temple and the rest of Jerusalem in 70 CE, they were bitterly disillusioned. They ceased to exist as a cohesive group shortly afterwards. By the end of the 1st century CE, they had essentially disappeared.
Concerning our resurrection, I'm not too sure yet, but if the Lord returned in 70, then there was a resurrection involved with that. For he came to judge; James 5:7-9. But there are 2 resurrections, and it is appointed man once to die, then the judgement right? If he came, he came to set the captives free and destroy the works of the devil. 2 Tim 1:10 says death is destroyed. :smile: Luke 21:21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.


Hi ryaned, Put any prophecy verse in the bible, even just the OT under Luke 21 above, and if it wasn't fulfilled, take it out of the bible and throw it out as being false.

The resurrection and 1000yrs in revelation are 2 of the most hotly debated items in revelation. Let me ask how you view this event. I and others see it as the same event, one view from heaven, the other from earth. The white throne judgement and the 6th seal("living dead" without the seal of the spirit of Christ). If that is true, then the 1000yr and resurrection passed in 70ad, as revelation is the great tribulation on Israel(37-42 months) and the wraths on Jerusalem(5 months reve chapt 9 "locusts") in the first century.

reve 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth(mountain/island) and the heaven(sky) fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

Chapt 14 shows the complete events, the reaping of the elect by one like the Son of Man on a cloud, the next the Wrath of God.
So where would the 1000yr period be in there?!@!?

Sheep/wheat harvested
reve 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Goats/Tares/Wrath
reve 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.



Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected to bring forth [good] grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. [i]3 " And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected to bring forth [good] grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? [i]5And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; [And] break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.

This is an interesting site on the various pagan beliefs Paul was up against when preaching to the Thessolonian church about the "resurrection" or "raising up". The word in the "air" is used not "heaven".

http://ourworld.cs.com/preteristabcs/id84.htm
I Thessalonians 4:17

The Thessalonian church was comprised primarily of Gentile converts from the pagan cults of Dionysus, Zeus, Asclepius, Aphrodite, Demeter, and perhaps most important, the cult of Cabirus. They were converts from a social and religious milieu in which gods and demons were understood to have control over virtually all aspects of life. “Threatened by powers and demons, by illnesses and unforeseen strokes of fate, one lived in suspense and fear and felt subject to overpowering forces against which one could not assert oneself.” 2 The Thessalonian converts may have thought that the gods and demons who inhabited the air were responsible for the persecution and death suffered in their church. In fear occasioned by the apparent victories of the forces of darkness over them, the Thessalonian church was concerned whether those who had died would be with the Lord at all, not simply at his parousia. Their own fate would thus also have been in doubt. It was with these specific concerns in mind that Paul wrote the 4,13-5,10 pericope, affirming that those whom God has elected are assuredly the Lord's, attested by their “meeting in the air” at the parousia to behold the victory of the conquering Christ over the forces of darkness.It is with these indigenous Greek ideas of the departure of the airy souls of the deceased into the airy and etherial netherworld that the Thessalonians were concerned. They were anxious over the fate of those of their community who had died, whether they were lost to the powers of the gods and demons and were themselves to becomedaimones.

[shunyadragon]

Here's a question that will help you see where you stand: Has the resurrection (of the saints) passed already, or does it lie in the future still?
Check out Matthew 27:52-53. Where did all the saints go after they rose? Quit an event, since no one else even Paul reported it.

[Glenn P]

Check out Matthew 27:52-53. Where did all the saints go after they rose? Quit an event, since no one else even Paul reported it."All the saints" didn't rise. A number of them did, and I don't know where they went, other than that they went out into Jerusalem and spoke to people, as Matthew recorded. My best guess is that they are now buried.

Glenn

[shunyadragon]

"All the saints" didn't rise. A number of them did, and I don't know where they went, other than that they went out into Jerusalem and spoke to people, as Matthew recorded. My best guess is that they are now buried.

Glenn
Glenn, time for a grammar and sentence structure check. I did not say all the saints rose. I said, 'Where did all the saints go that rose.'

Your answer is weak, because that does not explan the circumstances of the resurection of the saints in Matthew, and it was apparently put there to jive with prophecy.

[Glenn P]

Glenn, time for a grammar and sentence structure check. I did not say all the saints rose. I said, 'Where did all the saints go that rose.'I hate to be picky, but since you sought to correct me when no correction was required, I must correct you. You never said 'Where did all the saints go that rose.' You said - and you can check above in this thread for yourself - "Where did all the saints go after they rose?" This entails that all the saints did in fact rise. So it's not me with the bad grammar. Perhaps what you should have said is "where did all the saints go that rose?" But no matter, now you have corrected yourself and I know what you mean.

Your answer is weak, because that does not explan the circumstances of the resurection of the saints in Matthew, and it was apparently put there to jive with prophecy.What are you talking about? You asked where they went, I stated in reply that the Bible only says they went into Jerusalem and spoke to people, and the Bible tells us no more. Do you think a different answer should have been supplied? If so, what?

Glenn

[shunyadragon]

I hate to be picky, but since you sought to correct me when no correction was required, I must correct you. You never said 'Where did all the saints go that rose.' You said - and you can check above in this thread for yourself - "Where did all the saints go after they rose?" This entails that all the saints did in fact rise. So it's not me with the bad grammar. Perhaps what you should have said is "where did all the saints go that rose?" But no matter, now you have corrected yourself and I know what you mean.Regardless my sentence only referred to the saints that rose. I did not refer to all the saints in the graves. 'After' does not change anything.


What are you talking about? You asked where they went, I stated in reply that the Bible only says they went into Jerusalem and spoke to people, and the Bible tells us no more. Do you think a different answer should have been supplied? If so, what?
GlennSo what? This was a resurrection of major proportions likely linked to the prophecy of expected resurrection is theOT and the Bible tells us no more. This a real problem.

You asked about the resurrection of the saints and I showed where this is claimed to have already happened.

[Glenn P]

Regardless my sentence only referred to the saints that rose. I did not refer to all the saints in the graves. 'After' does not change anything.If you had included the word "that" (i.e. 'Where did all the saints go THAT rose') it would have changed the meaning by limiting the scope to only those saints that rose. But by just saying "after," you're right - it doesn;t change the meaning, it leaves it unqualified as "all the saints." Really it's a silly rhing to try and defend. It was just a grammatical error in your post, which became magnified when you tried to rebuke my own grammar, and that by changing what you actually said. This trivial point should be dropped. It was just a little error, which you have now corrected by clarifying what you meant to say.

You asked about the resurrection of the saints and I showed where this is claimed to have already happened.You showed an event where the Bible says that SOME of the saints rose. Not all those saints who were dead, but only some of them, who then went into Jerusalem and spoke to people. You stressed this yourself! When I pointed out that what your sentence meant is that they all rose, you clarified, saying that you didn't mean all of them, but only some. This event, therefore, was not the resurrection of the dead hoped for in Scripture.

Paul referred to a time after this event when the saints would rise. This is the event I am referring to. If you believe that this event is still in the future, then you are not a hymanaen. I will assume that you don't think this event of some saints rising is the event that Paul refers to as the resurrection, which he regarded as still in his future?

Glenn

[InChristAlways]

According to Jesus in Luke 21, everything was fulfilled upon the destruction of Jerusalem, all of the OT prophets, NT including everything Paul predicted. Our task is to find out through the scripture how that happened. So if you want to say Jesus lied to His people in Luke 21, then that of course is your right. Once you see what revelation is about, you also will see why everything was fulfilled as Jesus propmised His people as almost ALL prophecies were against JUDAH/JERUSALEM, not the "WORLD". Paul wrote His epistles many years before God sent the roman army into Jerusalem and He knew the time was short.God bless.

Daniel 12:And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.

luke 21:21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This is the same kind of salvation God brought to the hebrews from the egyptians in Exodus, but this salvation was the elect in Christ from the corrupt rulers/priests in Jerusalem, which the OT prophocied against.

romans 13:11 And [do] this, knowing the time, that now high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation [is] nearer than when we [first] believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

exodus 14:[i]13 And Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. Stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which He will accomplish for you today. For the Egyptians(future jews/Jerusalem) whom you see today, you shall see again no more forever. 14 "The LORD will fight for you, and you shall hold your peace."

[Glenn P]

According to Jesus in Luke 21, everything was fulfilled upon the destruction of Jerusalem, all of the OT prophets, NT including everything Paul predicted. Our task is to find out through the scripture how that happened. So if you want to say Jesus lied to His people in Luke 21, then that of course is your right. Once you see what revelation is about, you also will see why everything was fulfilled as Jesus propmised His people as almost ALL prophecies were against JUDAH/JERUSALEM, not the "WORLD". Paul wrote His epistles many years before God sent the roman army into Jerusalem and He knew the time was short.God bless.If this is an argument for neo-hymenaenism (full preterism), it fails. Here's why. The verse you are referring to is Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.But as you know, not every single prophecy of Scripture is about this punishment. Hence you are not in a position to say that this means every prophesied event of Scripture has now taken place - at least, not on the basis of Luke 21:22. All you can say on the basis of Luke 21:22 is that every prophecy about the wrath of God against Jerusalem has been fulfilled. This might work against a future tribulation, but it does not argue against orthodox preterism and the future return of the Lord and our bodily resurrection.

Glenn

[InChristAlways]

According to reve 11, after the "2 witnesses" are taken up, the time for the dead to be judged and servants to be rewarded comes. Reve 14 shows the reaping of the elect and wrath of the wicked, and since the Bible only show One Great Day of The Lord, and revel shows 3 different endtime events, ezekiel 39 sacrificial meal is the exact event of the "great supper of God" in chapt 19 of revel. What is funny is watching partial pretereist battle partial futurists and believe me, the bible becomes a lot more clearer with full fufillment than just "partial fulfillment.
All the OT prophecies are against Judah/Jerusalem, not the world, but I quit battling either one because of the "creeds", as the creeds have caused more division in the churches than the bible itself, because of the "nature" of the resurrection and coming. Paul wrote his epistles many years before God sent the roman army into Jerusalem, so when he said events would happen "SOON" or was "NEAR", that was still many years away from when he wrote.(try placing yourself in front of him when you read his "letters" like I did.)
Let me ask you this, do you believe revelation is the destruction of jerusalem in the first century? I am doing my own commentary on revelation like hundreds of others have, but mine shows it fulfilled. God bless.

reve 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

This is the same event, one view from heaven, the other from earth. But that is a view only I and a few others have right now, but then there are a 1000 different ways of looking at revelation so what does it matter.

reve 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

reve 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected to bring forth [good] grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. [i]3 " And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected to bring forth [good] grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? [i]5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; [And] break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. 6 I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, But there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it."