Hill Cumorah and the Angel Moroni? [Archive]

View Full Version : Hill Cumorah and the Angel Moroni?

Bill the Cat

December 23rd 2003, 02:05 PM

The Curtmudgeon

January 1st 2004, 06:56 PM

I think it would be great fun to go through the BoM, take all the proper names and see what connexions can be made to names that would have been available to Joe Smith at the time. Many of the names, I know, are either taken directly from the KJV, or else slight variants or combinations of such. But it would be interesting to see if there are any other names like Cumorah/Moroni.

Do the Mormons put out a "Strong's Exhaustive" equivalent for the BoM? (Given that it's been edited so much since the first version, I would doubt it, but since they seem to have settled on one text now maybe they have.)

The (with atlas in hand) Curtmudgeon

truthman

January 1st 2004, 07:54 PM

John Powell

January 2nd 2004, 10:39 PM

JOHN MORMON:
Ridiculous coincidence.

Moroni, Comoros is pronounced "moron'-ee" not "moron'-ae" as in the Angel.

If this was that big a deal then one would expect Mormon geographers to have left the church over it.

There are only so many letter and vowel combinations that sound good, so it's not surprising to find similarities around the world in different languages.

POWELL:
One or two examples are insufficient to persuade Mormons, but I suspect if you found enough like this one then some would seriously consider the possibility that Joseph just made variations from the names he found from maps, the KJV, and other sources he had available around 1830. They would then probably consider their other "proofs": their "spiritual experiences" and the fact that Mormon geographers have not been persuaded by such evidence and such and seal up this issue in their minds as rather irrelevant.

I once saw a rather long list of interesting connections that included Lehi, Pennsylvania.

Nephi as a variant of nephilim is not a persuasive example either way. One might expect a Hebrew to call a (hopefully) strong son something like that.

I was fearful that the suggestion (by I think it was the atheist Frank Zindler) was true that "Mormon" and "Moroni" were an early inside joke of Joseph Smith that people who believed his scam were "morons," but the name caught on so well it was adopted.

I find this Moroni, Comoros connection more plausible.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the problems Christians see in Mormonism are problems they should also see in Christianity.

Some of the "place names" and "people" in the Bible apparently have meanings related to the story they are used in. They may have been fictional places and fictional characters.

One could argue, for example, that "Jesus of Nazareth" was a mistake of Mark. Mark understood that Jesus was supposed to be a member of the sect of the Nazarenes, but thought this meant that they were followers of him because he was from a place called Naza-something. Mark just made the place up that was not associated with an actual village until the 2nd century.

The modern location of Nazareth is built next to a hill, it was not a CITY with a SYNAGOGUE built ON A HILL as Luke indicates. Even if there were a small village there then the people would have had to go uphill to push Jesus off a cliff.

The place before the 2nd century was apparently an ancient necropolis where dead people were buried.

Frank Zindler in his "Where Jesus Never Walked" at www.atheists.org/church/ozjesus.html has some significant claims.

John Powell

The Curtmudgeon

January 3rd 2004, 02:27 PM

Before I respond, John, let me assure you that I've read enough of your posts in the past to understand the difference between "John Mormon" and "Powell" and will answer them accordingly.

Yesterday @ 08:39 PM John Powell:

JOHN MORMON:
Ridiculous coincidence.

Moroni, Comoros is pronounced "moron'-ee" not "moron'-ae" as in the Angel.

Meaningless objection, JM. If Joe Smith had only seen the name on a map, he wouldn't necessarily know (or care about) the correct pronounciation and would come up with one on his own. In fact, even if he did know the correct way, he would possibly/probably have deliberately chosen a different way to pronounce it in order to deny the obvious derivation.

If this was that big a deal then one would expect Mormon geographers to have left the church over it.

Mormon geographers, like Mormons in general, can be very good at ignoring the obvious. For example, see immediately above.

There are only so many letter and vowel combinations that sound good, so it's not surprising to find similarities around the world in different languages.

This is an objection that I certainly agree with in principle but that the principle cannot be stretched too far. To say that a name like "Dan", for instance, can come from a number of different cultures and languages with no connection or derivation is both true and trivial (I have a Vietnamese friend named Dan, which is a Vietnamese not an English-derived-from-Jewish name in his case). But the more syllables/phonemes in two words are alike stretches the principle to breaking. "Cu" could easily be coincidental in two languages; "Cumor" could but less easily; "Cumorah" much less so. When you then find not one but two suspicious links to one source, the possibility of coincidence becomes very faint indeed.

POWELL:
One or two examples are insufficient to persuade Mormons, but I suspect if you found enough like this one then some would seriously consider the possibility that Joseph just made variations from the names he found from maps, the KJV, and other sources he had available around 1830. They would then probably consider their other "proofs": their "spiritual experiences" and the fact that Mormon geographers have not been persuaded by such evidence and such and seal up this issue in their minds as rather irrelevant.

I actually tend to disregard most of the numerous names that are obviously (or seem to be) from the KJV, since after all the BoM purports to be a history of a branch of the Jewish race, so of course the names will be similar to or repititions of Jewish names (including place names, as naming new sites after the old homeland is trivially human).

I would make an exception, however, in places where BoM records names for non-Jewish people/places that show derivation from Biblical names (note: I'm not familiar enough with the BoM to assert that there are any such, just the possibility). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that the BoM portrays America as being empty before the various Hebrew immigrations that it follows. So if the Hebrews in BoM arrive overseas and find people with, f'rinstance, Caananite names I would certainly point to that as evidence of direct derivation from the KJV.

[Added:] I would also except names in BoM where "Mormon" names are seemingly derived from Biblical but not Hebrew names, if that occurs. If that can be shown, then that would also count as evidence supporting derivation. If Joe Smith was just flipping through his Bible grabbing names, he might not have always stopped to verify that the name was a Hebrew name before reusing it.

...Nephi as a variant of nephilim is not a persuasive example either way. One might expect a Hebrew to call a (hopefully) strong son something like that.

Not really. "Nephilim" as equivalent to "giant" is an English translation, and really not a translation but an inference due to the fact that in one of the two places it's used in the text, the people so named are also described as giants. But the name itself is derived from a word meaning "fallen" (hence the other common connection with fallen angels), and so it is not at all likely to be chosen as a name for a Hebrew -- except by a non-Hebrew speaker who only associated the name with giants because of typical 19th-century interpretations connected with the KJV.

I was fearful that the suggestion (by I think it was the atheist Frank Zindler) was true that "Mormon" and "Moroni" were an early inside joke of Joseph Smith that people who believed his scam were "morons," but the name caught on so well it was adopted.

Zindler may have articulated it, but the similarity is just too compelling for that idea to be unique to him (I had long seen it myself, but have never heard of Zindler before). For a non-Mormon like me, it's humourous indeed, but I've never believed it to be true.

...Some of the "place names" and "people" in the Bible apparently have meanings related to the story they are used in. They may have been fictional places and fictional characters.

Non-sequitur, I'm afraid. What is more natural than to give a location a name that reflects what you know about or what you hope for in that site? What is more natural than to give a child a name that reflects your hopes or fears for that child or the times in which (s)he will live? Many parents today who pour over books of baby names pay as much attention to the (sometimes putative) meanings of the names as to the spelling or sound of them. (And, of course, in the Bible many names are directed by God -- Isaiah wouldn't have called his son Maher-shalal-hash-baz, "Pillage hastens, looting spreads", on his own, I'm sure. But when God says, "Name him thus" and you're a prophet of God, you do it anyway.)

In fact, isn't that exactly the purpose of a name originally, to say something about the person or thing named? Only in modern times, and primarily only in Western cultures, have we come to the point of thinking of names only as meaningless labels. Even today, Orientals who choose an English name for themselves after coming to the US (and I assume other such countries) most often do so based on the meaning of the name (which is why many of them choose words that we generally wouldn't think of as names ourselves -- but even we use names such as Faith, Hope and Charity).

One could argue, for example, that "Jesus of Nazareth" was a mistake of Mark. Mark understood that Jesus was supposed to be a member of the sect of the Nazarenes, but thought this meant that they were followers of him because he was from a place called Naza-something. Mark just made the place up that was not associated with an actual village until the 2nd century.

You're basing your argument here on a whole raft of unproven assumptions, so it's worthless. If the Bible came to be written when and as you choose to believe it was, then you can make a case like this. But there are extremely strong indications that Mark was not written as late as the 2nd century, nor that there was any such sect of Nazarenes named independently than from Jesus of Nazareth Himself at the time he did write.

The modern location of Nazareth is built next to a hill, it was not a CITY with a SYNAGOGUE built ON A HILL as Luke indicates. Even if there were a small village there then the people would have had to go uphill to push Jesus off a cliff.

You've certainly got an extremely urban understanding of the forms that hills can and do take. I can show you any number of places just in West Texas where it's not only possible but extremely easy to push a person off a 'cliff' from somewhere on the side of a hill. By the way, read the text again (or for the first time). Luke says nothing about a cliff, and the description says only that Nazareth was built on a hill (and regardless of your statement, Nazareth is on the hill, even though it is low on the hill), nothing implying that it had to be on the very top. Nor is there any problem in the idea of them going uphill -- "they led him out of the town" but it says nothing of which way they went.

The place before the 2nd century was apparently an ancient necropolis where dead people were buried.

Frank Zindler in his "Where Jesus Never Walked" at www.atheists.org/church/ozjesus.html has some significant claims.

Outdated and disproven for the most part. There certainly is a city, not just a graveyard, at Nazareth that dates back to the Roman time. You need to check the actual archaeology reports themselves.

The (but it's so much easier just repeating the tired old cliches, isn't it) Curtmudgeon

John Powell

January 3rd 2004, 08:39 PM

The Curtmudgeon:
Before I respond, John, let me assure you that I've read enough of your posts in the past to understand the difference between "John Mormon" and "Powell" and will answer them accordingly.

POWELL:
Good. I'll try to keep the distinction clear here.

JOHN MORMON:
Ridiculous coincidence.

Moroni, Comoros is pronounced "moron'-ee" not "moron'-ae" as in the Angel.

The Curtmudgeon:
Meaningless objection, JM. If Joe Smith had only seen the name on a map, he wouldn't necessarily know (or care about) the correct pronounciation and would come up with one on his own.

JOHN MORMON:
You're begging the question of whether JOSEPH Smith (people who use "Joe" are intentionally trying to demean him) was inspired as to the correct pronunciation of words.

The meanings of words can change depending upon how they're pronounced. For example, the word "read" as in "I read books" pronounced "reed" is the present tense, whereas when pronounced as "red" it's the past tense. The word Moroni pronounced "moron-ee" is the capital of an island, but when pronounced as "moron-ae" it's a Nephite prophet who returned to Earth as an angel of God.

The Curtmudgeon:
In fact, even if he did know the correct way, he would possibly/probably have deliberately chosen a different way to pronounce it in order to deny the obvious derivation.

JOHN MORMON:
You assume he had something to hide.

JOHN MORMON:
If this was that big a deal then one would expect Mormon geographers to have left the church over it.

CURTMUDGEON:
Mormon geographers, like Mormons in general, can be very good at ignoring the obvious. For example, see immediately above.

JOHN MORMON:
What is obviously a derivative to you is obviously inspiration from God to me.

JOHN MORMON:
There are only so many letter and vowel combinations that sound good, so it's not surprising to find similarities around the world in different languages.

The Curtmudgeon:
This is an objection that I certainly agree with in principle but that the principle cannot be stretched too far. To say that a name like "Dan", for instance, can come from a number of different cultures and languages with no connection or derivation is both true and trivial (I have a Vietnamese friend named Dan, which is a Vietnamese not an English-derived-from-Jewish name in his case). But the more syllables/phonemes in two words are alike stretches the principle to breaking.

JOHN MORMON:
True. The longer the word, the less likely the independence. I seriously doubt that the English word pnemonaultramicroscopicsilocovalcaneconeosis (sp?) exists in any ancient language. Moroni, however, is only 6 letters with alternating consonants and vowels. That's not too problematic in itself.

POWELL:
The connection with Comoros, however, is a lot more problematic.

The Curtmudgeon:
"Cu" could easily be coincidental in two languages; "Cumor" could but less easily; "Cumorah" much less so. When you then find not one but two suspicious links to one source, the possibility of coincidence becomes very faint indeed.

JOHN MORMON:
You apparently forget that enemies of the Mormon church have been looking for just such connections for over a hundred years. What are the chances that with enough effort and the various sources that one might look for that they might find a few "suspicious" ones like Moroni, Comoros? Not so low after all.

Consider a UFO example.

It's very unlikely that a star map drawn by a nonastronomer in an alleged alien abduction event would match a specific starfield they identified it with. For example, if they were to say "The aliens told me that star there in my map is what our astronomers call HD 12345," but the person had never seen the starfield for HD 12345, that would be amazing. However, if the abductee did not specify which star map it was and proponents of alien abductions went through enough star maps at various magnitude limits and allow for "minor" changes to the abductees map then they could eventually find a reasonable "match."

POWELL:
One or two examples are insufficient to persuade Mormons, but I suspect if you found enough like this one then some would seriously consider the possibility that Joseph just made variations from the names he found from maps, the KJV, and other sources he had available around 1830. They would then probably consider their other "proofs": their "spiritual experiences" and the fact that Mormon geographers have not been persuaded by such evidence and such and seal up this issue in their minds as rather irrelevant.

The Curtmudgeon:
I actually tend to disregard most of the numerous names that are obviously (or seem to be) from the KJV, since after all the BoM purports to be a history of a branch of the Jewish race, so of course the names will be similar to or repititions of Jewish names (including place names, as naming new sites after the old homeland is trivially human).

POWELL:
Sure. That goes right along with why the BoM "sounds" like the Bible in so many other ways.

The Curtmudgeon
I would make an exception, however, in places where BoM records names for non-Jewish people/places that show derivation from Biblical names (note: I'm not familiar enough with the BoM to assert that there are any such, just the possibility). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that the BoM portrays America as being empty before the various Hebrew immigrations that it follows. So if the Hebrews in BoM arrive overseas and find people with, f'rinstance, Caananite names I would certainly point to that as evidence of direct derivation from the KJV.

POWELL:
The early Mormons assumed the ONLY ones living in the Americas were the Jaredites (from the tower of Babel) and the Lehites (shortly before the fall of Jerusalem) and the Mulekites (at the time of the fall of Jerusalem). Given the DNA evidence showing modern Indians are all Mongoloid with tiny non-Mongoloid elements, more and more Mormons are probably believing that there were others living in the Americas that just weren't important enough to mention. Any non-Jewish elements could be blamed on the earlier Jaredites. Joseph Smith was no dummy.

Notice that the Bible has some of the same problems. For example, the non-Hebrew name "Zadok" apparently suggests to many that he was not a Levite as the Bible claims, but may have been a Jebusite priest from Jerusalem that David hired. There are some other examples in the Bible.

The Curtmudgeon
[Added:] I would also except names in BoM where "Mormon" names are seemingly derived from Biblical but not Hebrew names, if that occurs. If that can be shown, then that would also count as evidence supporting derivation. If Joe Smith was just flipping through his Bible grabbing names, he might not have always stopped to verify that the name was a Hebrew name before reusing it.

POWELL:
A more serious problem is if post-Biblical terms that the KJV ERRONEOUSLY put in their Bible were used by Joseph. There's at least one I can recall existing, but I forget the specifics.

The French "adieu" is not so problematic since Mormon apologists persuasively argue that Joseph was merely using a phrase he was familiar with.

POWELL:
...Nephi as a variant of nephilim is not a persuasive example either way. One might expect a Hebrew to call a (hopefully) strong son something like that.

The Curtmudgeon
Not really. "Nephilim" as equivalent to "giant" is an English translation, and really not a translation but an inference due to the fact that in one of the two places it's used in the text, the people so named are also described as giants. But the name itself is derived from a word meaning "fallen" (hence the other common connection with fallen angels), and so it is not at all likely to be chosen as a name for a Hebrew -- except by a non-Hebrew speaker who only associated the name with giants because of typical 19th-century interpretations connected with the KJV.

POWELL:
Assuming you're right, that's a good point. However, the Mormon apologist might argue that Lehi was thinking in terms of the "giant" connection of the word despite the original meaning as "fallen" when he picked that name for his third son.

POWELL:
I was fearful that the suggestion (by I think it was the atheist Frank Zindler) was true that "Mormon" and "Moroni" were an early inside joke of Joseph Smith that people who believed his scam were "morons," but the name caught on so well it was adopted.

The Curtmudgeon:
Zindler may have articulated it, but the similarity is just too compelling for that idea to be unique to him (I had long seen it myself, but have never heard of Zindler before). For a non-Mormon like me, it's humourous indeed, but I've never believed it to be true.

POWELL:
...Some of the "place names" and "people" in the Bible apparently have meanings related to the story they are used in. They may have been fictional places and fictional characters.

The Curtmudgeon:
Non-sequitur, I'm afraid. What is more natural than to give a location a name that reflects what you know about or what you hope for in that site? What is more natural than to give a child a name that reflects your hopes or fears for that child or the times in which (s)he will live? Many parents today who pour over books of baby names pay as much attention to the (sometimes putative) meanings of the names as to the spelling or sound of them. (And, of course, in the Bible many names are directed by God -- Isaiah wouldn't have called his son Maher-shalal-hash-baz, "Pillage hastens, looting spreads", on his own, I'm sure. But when God says, "Name him thus" and you're a prophet of God, you do it anyway.)

In fact, isn't that exactly the purpose of a name originally, to say something about the person or thing named? Only in modern times, and primarily only in Western cultures, have we come to the point of thinking of names only as meaningless labels. Even today, Orientals who choose an English name for themselves after coming to the US (and I assume other such countries) most often do so based on the meaning of the name (which is why many of them choose words that we generally wouldn't think of as names ourselves -- but even we use names such as Faith, Hope and Charity).

POWELL:
Good points.

The rest of my response is inappropriate in this forum, so I've moved it to the thread "Did Nazareth exist as a community in O A.D.?" (Yes! I know it should say 1 A.D. or something like that) in the "Apologetics 301" section of the "Theistic Metaphysics" department.

I hope you'll continue our discussion there.

John Powell

Dave

January 27th 2004, 11:40 AM

"Nephi" could have possibly had its source from the OT deuterocanonical book of 2 Maccabees 1:36. Nowadays you'll find the word termed 'naphta', but in the old KJV usage of Joseph Smith's time, it is called 'nephi'. And if I remember correctly JS did have a copy of the KJV that included the OT deuterocanonicals.

Peace,
Dave

master_mormon

November 25th 2004, 01:54 AM

There is a suspicious link between the hill Cumorah and the angel Moroni, and the Comoros Islands off the eastern coast of Mozambique, the capital of which is Moroni, and has been since before the Book of Mormon.

Defenders of the Book of Mormon claim that this is only a coincidence, and that 'Comoros' in fact has very little correspondence with 'Cumorah'.

The fact of the matter is that prior to the French occupation of the late 1860's, Comoros was known by its Arabic name, Camora (sometimes also spelled Comora). It is thus more than a little suspicious to note that the 1830 Book of Mormon uniformly spells 'Cumorah' as 'Camorah'. See, for example, the original text of

Mormon 6:2:
And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Camorah, by the hill which was called Camorah, and there we would give them battle.

The entire map may be viewed here: http://www.kenyalogy.com/eng/mapake/af1808.html

This is just another dumb claim that I see all the time. It is flawed by the following reasons.

1. Is there any evidence that Joseph Smith would have known about this island and names. Remember, Joseph Smith when he translated the Book of Mormon lived in the late 1820's which means no internet, no TV and very little books. The closest libary that was to him had less than 100 total books and it was a membership one and Joseph Smith did not have a membership there as far as known.

2. Secondly, the following i copied on my hard drive from a website on this issue. I will get the link to it when i find it again if one requries. It states in part:

Could Joseph have gotten the names Cumorah and Moroni from this place? Very unlikely. Of several tomes available in Joseph's day checked, few mentioned the Comorros islands, and none mentioned the town of Moroni Why not? Because Moroni became the capital of the Grand Comoros island only in 1876 (32 years after Joseph's death and 47 years after the publishing of the Book of Mormon), when Sultan Sa'id Ali settled there. At that time it was only a small settlement. Even a century later, in1958, it's population was only 6500.

So what are the odds of Joseph Smith knowing about this island? What are the chances of him knowing in 1828 that of the captial city Moroni existing in 1876? AH, perhaps Joseph Smith had a time machine. THAT EXPLAINS IT.

Bill the Cat

June 3rd 2005, 10:50 AM

This is just another dumb claim that I see all the time. It is flawed by the following reasons.

"Master Mormon"... I didn't insult you nor say your explanation was "dumb", so I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

1. Is there any evidence that Joseph Smith would have known about this island and names. Remember, Joseph Smith when he translated the Book of Mormon lived in the late 1820's which means no internet, no TV and very little books. The closest libary that was to him had less than 100 total books and it was a membership one and Joseph Smith did not have a membership there as far as known.

Anyone with access to a simple map, say someone who lived close enough to a shipping port (16 mere miles), would have known of them

http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/comoros/comoros.html
Beaches served as landing areas for traditional sailing vessels and martime trade is mentioned in ancient documents. Domoni, located on the eastern shore of the island of Nzwani(Anjouan), for example, with several beaches nearby was a major trading center in the fifteenth century. Ships traveled to Africa and Asia with archaeological materials providing evidence that trade existed between the community and places as far away as Japan. Since the end of the fifteenth century, many European and American sailors visited the islands. These included whalers, merchants, and pirates, such as the infamous Captain Kidd.

Whalers in New England talked and stories about Captain Kidd and his pirate's loot were more than likely attractive to the money digging Smith

P. Tucker (Vogel vol 3, pp. 93-94):

"Joseph ... had learned to read comprehensively ... [reading] works of fiction and records of criminality, such for instance as would be classed with the 'dime novels' of the present day. The stories of Stephen Buroughs and Captain Kidd, and the like, presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions."

Pomeroy Tucker knew personal details about the Smiths while they lived in Palmyra--even Richard L. Anderson admits this (Vogel vol 3, p. 87).

2. Secondly, the following i copied on my hard drive from a website on this issue. I will get the link to it when i find it again if one requries. It states in part:

Could Joseph have gotten the names Cumorah and Moroni from this place? Very unlikely. Of several tomes available in Joseph's day checked, few mentioned the Comorros islands, and none mentioned the town of Moroni Why not? Because Moroni became the capital of the Grand Comoros island only in 1876 (32 years after Joseph's death and 47 years after the publishing of the Book of Mormon), when Sultan Sa'id Ali settled there. At that time it was only a small settlement. Even a century later, in1958, it's population was only 6500.

The "dime books" on Captain Kidd were readily available to Joseph, and they mention his time in Camorah. Moroni was a shipping port before it was the capital, so it would have been known to shippers, which Palmyra was close to the Great Lakes. Knowledge of Camorah would not have been that difficult to obtain.

So what are the odds of Joseph Smith knowing about this island? What are the chances of him knowing in 1828 that of the captial city Moroni existing in 1876? AH, perhaps Joseph Smith had a time machine. THAT EXPLAINS IT.
[/QUOTE]

What are the odds that Joseph Smith got EXACTLY the same names by coincidence for the hill and the Angel as the island and a shipping port on that island?

It's pretty slim that it is a coincidence, and much more probable that he heard of the names and used them.

Oh, and your sarchasm is not necessary...

Krusader

June 3rd 2005, 11:08 AM

This is just another dumb claim that I see all the time. It is flawed by the following reasons.

1. Is there any evidence that Joseph Smith would have known about this island and names. Remember, Joseph Smith when he translated the Book of Mormon lived in the late 1820's which means no internet, no TV and very little books. The closest libary that was to him had less than 100 total books and it was a membership one and Joseph Smith did not have a membership there as far as known.

2. Secondly, the following i copied on my hard drive from a website on this issue. I will get the link to it when i find it again if one requries. It states in part:

Could Joseph have gotten the names Cumorah and Moroni from this place? Very unlikely. Of several tomes available in Joseph's day checked, few mentioned the Comorros islands, and none mentioned the town of Moroni Why not? Because Moroni became the capital of the Grand Comoros island only in 1876 (32 years after Joseph's death and 47 years after the publishing of the Book of Mormon), when Sultan Sa'id Ali settled there. At that time it was only a small settlement. Even a century later, in1958, it's population was only 6500.

So what are the odds of Joseph Smith knowing about this island? What are the chances of him knowing in 1828 that of the captial city Moroni existing in 1876? AH, perhaps Joseph Smith had a time machine. THAT EXPLAINS IT.

Master Mormon? Shouldn't it be "Master Mahon," or simply Master Mason, which is where Smith took the title - not to mention his secret temple ceremonies and handshakes, and oaths!

Question: did Joseph have a time machine. No, he consulted with somebody that did, however!

To get to the point, Smith had to major sources of geographical information from which to draw. All he needed was a library card to peruse the books in the Manchester Public Library before 1830, a resource that would have been available to Smith in his teens or later. Also, another library resource would have been the library at Dartmouth College. The Smith family lived in Lebanon, NH from 1811 to 1813, before moving back to Vermont. The home occupied by the Smith's while in Lebanon was just down the road from Dartmouth College.

Both of these sources could have easily provided information on the Comoros Islands and its capitol.

Krusader

June 3rd 2005, 11:55 AM

Please note word "to" above should read "two." Couldn't get to it in enough time to change.

PaulT

June 3rd 2005, 12:10 PM

1. Is there any evidence that Joseph Smith would have known about this island and names. Remember, Joseph Smith when he translated the Book of Mormon lived in the late 1820's which means no internet, no TV and very little books. The closest libary that was to him had less than 100 total books and it was a membership one and Joseph Smith did not have a membership there as far as known.

Outdoor toilets too, right, them some dumb uneducated hicks who structured our form of Government. Amazing how much our educational system has improved over the last hundred years.

PaulT

June 3rd 2005, 02:31 PM

Crum,

I actually tend to disregard most of the numerous names that are obviously (or seem to be) from the KJV, since after all the BoM purports to be a history of a branch of the Jewish race, so of course the names will be similar to or repititions of Jewish names (including place names, as naming new sites after the old homeland is trivially human).

I would make an exception, however, in places where BoM records names for non-Jewish people/places that show derivation from Biblical names (note: I'm not familiar enough with the BoM to assert that there are any such, just the possibility). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that the BoM portrays America as being empty before the various Hebrew immigrations that it follows. So if the Hebrews in BoM arrive overseas and find people with, f'rinstance, Caananite names I would certainly point to that as evidence of direct derivation from the KJV.

[Added:] I would also except names in BoM where "Mormon" names are seemingly derived from Biblical but not Hebrew names, if that occurs. If that can be shown, then that would also count as evidence supporting derivation. If Joe Smith was just flipping through his Bible grabbing names, he might not have always stopped to verify that the name was a Hebrew name before reusing it.

How bout NT terminology used in the BoM that was never used prior to Christ, kind of like the term Kingdom of God, or Kingdom of Heaven. Would this have any bearing on an argument regarding authenticity?

Paul

rangerbob

June 3rd 2005, 03:46 PM

and all this time i thought it was the angel nephi,

Krusader

June 3rd 2005, 05:24 PM

and all this time i thought it was the angel nephi,

Don't feel bad, rangerbob, Smith got confused about which angel was doing what - after all, in his early first vision account he had Nephi appearing to him.

InChristAlways

June 3rd 2005, 05:43 PM

Don't feel bad, rangerbob, Smith got confused about which angel was doing what - after all, in his early first vision account he had Nephi appearing to him.Hi Crusader. JS's spirit must be roaming around as this person on the unorthodox forum also claimed to have been visited not by just one angel, but 3!!!Do Mormons claim visions and prohecies by Angels?Blessings

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=47631

Firstly, the Lord God visited me. I cannot share that with you just yet. It would be more than you could bear. But it almost took my life.

Then 10 days later, the first angel visited me and his brightness was not like the sun but more of like brighter than the stars, including even Venus. And the angel said, "Fear God, and give Him glory, for the hour (time) of His judgement is come upon all of the earth, and worship Him Who made the earth and the heavens, and all that is therein." And I could not take my eyes or myself from watching the angel, because I'd never seen one before and thought I would never see one again. Then I heard a voice speak into my thoughts to hurry and call my present girlfriend at that time to ask her to come over, so I could tell her and my family and friends that the angel had visited me and what he had said.

The second angel visited me exactly one week later and spoke loudly, "Babylon is fallen" and told me about this woman who was an actress named Betty Hutton. And the Lord told me that He had given and taken away her husbands and riches, and that she would turn to Him and called His name Ishri (husband). And the Lord told me that this was written in the book of Hosea chapter 2, that He would do this before the time of the end.:eek:

I'm sorry I'm being so brief here, but I don't know how much I can write in this forum here and also, it is easier for the reader. The third angel visited me exactly another week later and said "Do not follow after the beast and his image, nor receive his mark/power in your right hand or forehead." And the angel explained to me about this Israeli psychic named Uri Geller, and that he was doing simple miracles by using his right hand to rub on and bend silverware and using his mind to concentrate on moving watch hands and compasses, etc.

Krusader

June 3rd 2005, 06:24 PM

Hi Crusader. JS's spirit must be roaming around as this person on the unorthodox forum also claimed to have been visited not by just one angel, but 3!!!Do Mormons claim visions and prohecies by Angels?Blessings

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=47631

Firstly, the Lord God visited me. I cannot share that with you just yet. It would be more than you could bear. But it almost took my life.

Then 10 days later, the first angel visited me and his brightness was not like the sun but more of like brighter than the stars, including even Venus. And the angel said, "Fear God, and give Him glory, for the hour (time) of His judgement is come upon all of the earth, and worship Him Who made the earth and the heavens, and all that is therein." And I could not take my eyes or myself from watching the angel, because I'd never seen one before and thought I would never see one again. Then I heard a voice speak into my thoughts to hurry and call my present girlfriend at that time to ask her to come over, so I could tell her and my family and friends that the angel had visited me and what he had said.

The second angel visited me exactly one week later and spoke loudly, "Babylon is fallen" and told me about this woman who was an actress named Betty Hutton. And the Lord told me that He had given and taken away her husbands and riches, and that she would turn to Him and called His name Ishri (husband). And the Lord told me that this was written in the book of Hosea chapter 2, that He would do this before the time of the end.:eek:

I'm sorry I'm being so brief here, but I don't know how much I can write in this forum here and also, it is easier for the reader. The third angel visited me exactly another week later and said "Do not follow after the beast and his image, nor receive his mark/power in your right hand or forehead." And the angel explained to me about this Israeli psychic named Uri Geller, and that he was doing simple miracles by using his right hand to rub on and bend silverware and using his mind to concentrate on moving watch hands and compasses, etc.

Okay, I know the guy you're talking about. This may be a medical-related problem. Be gentle.

InChristAlways

June 3rd 2005, 06:37 PM

mnn727

June 4th 2005, 12:18 AM

To get to the point, Smith had to major sources of geographical information from which to draw. All he needed was a library card to peruse the books in the Manchester Public Library before 1830, a resource that would have been available to Smith in his teens or later. Also, another library resource would have been the library at Dartmouth College. The Smith family lived in Lebanon, NH from 1811 to 1813, before moving back to Vermont. The home occupied by the Smith's while in Lebanon was just down the road from Dartmouth College.

Both of these sources could have easily provided information on the Comoros Islands and its capitol.

Libraries then did not work the way they do today, you had to be a member which cost money, there is no record that JS was ever a member.

Yes, J.S. family did live in Lebanon for 2 years when Joseph was 6 - 8 years old, you think he just popped over to the college when he was 6 years old, went into the library and researched something he would not know about for years?

No offence meant here but "HELLO - ANYONE HOME?"

Bill the Cat

June 4th 2005, 09:49 AM

MnM,

So you think it is just a huge coincidence that the names are exactly the same? What are the odds that this angel with the exact same name of a shipping port on a tiny island off the coast of Africa led Joseph to a hill that bore the exact same name as the island that the port was on?

Oh, and I noticed you ignored my comments on how Joseph would have been able to get information on Camorah and the quotes that showed Joseph's access to the stories about Captain Kidd in Camorah.

Jethreuel

June 4th 2005, 04:37 PM

Whalers in New England talked and stories about Captain Kidd and his pirate's loot were more than likely attractive to the money digging Smith

How much spare time do you think he had on his hands? I might mention that living on a farm is a lot of work, and that rumors that Joseph Smith was a money digger arose after the Angel Moroni gave unto him the Golden Plates.

P. Tucker (Vogel vol 3, pp. 93-94):

"Joseph ... had learned to read comprehensively ... [reading] works of fiction and records of criminality, such for instance as would be classed with the 'dime novels' of the present day. The stories of Stephen Buroughs and Captain Kidd, and the like, presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions."

Pomeroy Tucker knew personal details about the Smiths while they lived in Palmyra--even Richard L. Anderson admits this (Vogel vol 3, p. 87).

Had learned to read comprehensively... This is pretty amazing for someone who only had four months of formal education. :wink: And, being in an poor family, where would he have gotten the money to buy novels? Oh, yeah. Now I remember. From his "money digging!" :lol: I am sorry, but I couldn't help myself. Forgive me, but there seems to be a lot of false stories circulating about Joseph, that are beyond rationality. These stories were told when rumors abounded that he had Golden Plates, and everyone wanted gold for themselves, and the stories about him into criminal activities were spread by ministers in the area, who were angry at him for not joining their churches and then stating that he had a Vision.

As for P. Tucker, even if he knew the Smith Family, that doesn't mean that he would not lie. If he didn't like Joseph, wouldn't he always be trying to demean him when talking about him to his friends?

The "dime books" on Captain Kidd were readily available to Joseph, and they mention his time in Camorah. Moroni was a shipping port before it was the capital, so it would have been known to shippers, which Palmyra was close to the Great Lakes. Knowledge of Camorah would not have been that difficult to obtain.

Again, where would he have gotten the money, or the time, to read such books. As I recall, Joseph preferred to spend his free time playing games with other children.

To get to the point, Smith had to major sources of geographical information from which to draw. All he needed was a library card to peruse the books in the Manchester Public Library before 1830, a resource that would have been available to Smith in his teens or later. Also, another library resource would have been the library at Dartmouth College. The Smith family lived in Lebanon, NH from 1811 to 1813, before moving back to Vermont. The home occupied by the Smith's while in Lebanon was just down the road from Dartmouth College.

As someone already stated, such a card cost money, and Joseph did not have that much money to spend. Again, I would remind you, as mnn stated, Joseph would have only have been 6-8 when his family was living in Lebanon.

Don't feel bad, rangerbob, Smith got confused about which angel was doing what - after all, in his early first vision account he had Nephi appearing to him.

Where is this account? It sounds like a mistake would be made by someone who had not read his account of the First Vision. Joseph had always maintained the same details of the Vision, even when asked about it years later.

As for the person with the strange visions, I think that was either a delusion, or an attempt to become the center of attention.

Timothy Leary

June 4th 2005, 05:28 PM

Joseph Smith was not quite as "dumb" as you would make him out to be. For a time, he even studied Hebrew under a Rabbi's direction. He was a Mason, and in my experiences I have yet to meet one "dumb" mason. Just because a single library near his house may not have had information about that area, it does not mean he did not learn it from another resource. (Say, his fellow Masons, or a teacher of his, or a map he had seen, etc.)

Timothy Leary

June 4th 2005, 05:33 PM

Joseph Smith was not nearly as dumb, ignorant, or uneducated as people make him out to be. As I mentioned earlier, he studied Hebrew under a Rabbi for a time.

Besides, I don't know about y'all, but my parents made sure that I was able to read fairly well before I ever entered the school system.

Had learned to read comprehensively... This is pretty amazing for someone who only had four months of formal education. :wink: And, being in an poor family, where would he have gotten the money to buy novels? Oh, yeah. Now I remember. From his "money digging!" :lol: I am sorry, but I couldn't help myself. Forgive me, but there seems to be a lot of false stories circulating about Joseph, that are beyond rationality. These stories were told when rumors abounded that he had Golden Plates, and everyone wanted gold for themselves, and the stories about him into criminal activities were spread by ministers in the area, who were angry at him for not joining their churches and then stating that he had a Vision.

PaulT

June 4th 2005, 07:40 PM

Jeth,

From who are you learning the history of Joseph Smith, the same Learned LDS members who taught you the LDS doctrine/not doctrine of God-Man/Man-God?

Bill the Cat

June 5th 2005, 01:39 PM

How much spare time do you think he had on his hands? I might mention that living on a farm is a lot of work, and that rumors that Joseph Smith was a money digger arose after the Angel Moroni gave unto him the Golden Plates.

That's untrue. From "Joseph Smith: The First Mormon" http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/first.htm#courtship

Although at the time Joseph considered money-digging only one of any number of odd jobs he did, the experience would have consequences of great importance in his life.

In October 1825, one Josiah Stowell (sometimes spelled Stowel or Stoal), a well-to-do farmer from South Bainbridge, New York, came to ask young Joseph to help him find a lost silver mine in the Susquehanna Valley. Stowell claimed to have an ancient document describing and locating the mine, which he believed had been opened and later abandoned by the Spaniards, and he had already done some work on the site. In his day, he was only one of many men of character and substance who were convinced that treasures had been buried in various places in the New World, and who spent money and effort in search of them.

Stowell came to the Smiths saying that he had heard young Joseph held certain "keys" by which he could discern things invisible to the naked eye. Although Lucy says that Joseph tried to dissuade him, Stowell was insistent and offered "high" wages, which Joseph described with less enthusiasm as fourteen dollars a month. Since the family was, as always, in need of money, young Joseph and Joseph Sr. agreed to go, along with several neighbors.

The diggers went to board with Isaac and Elizabeth Hale, who lived in Harmony, Pennsylvania, not far from the supposed site of the mine.

Had learned to read comprehensively... This is pretty amazing for someone who only had four months of formal education. :wink:

Same cite as above shows he attended a bit more school:

When his father and the others returned home, Joseph stayed to work on Stowell's farm. Whenever possible, he rode to Harmony to visit Emma, whether welcomed by her father or not, and he attended school as he could, perhaps reacting to Isaac's comment that he was poorly educated, perhaps encouraged by Isaac's handsome, schoolteaching daughter.

****My comment ****

Further in the article

****End My Comment***

In the meantime, Joseph Jr. continued working for Stowell on his farm, going to school and riding to Harmony to court Emma.

And, being in an poor family, where would he have gotten the money to buy novels? Oh, yeah. Now I remember. From his "money digging!" :lol:

A dime for a book ain't much, and who is to say that he didn't borrow them from someone else who bought them? Say a certain schoolteacher he was infatuated with??

I am sorry, but I couldn't help myself. Forgive me, but there seems to be a lot of false stories circulating about Joseph, that are beyond rationality. These stories were told when rumors abounded that he had Golden Plates, and everyone wanted gold for themselves, and the stories about him into criminal activities were spread by ministers in the area, who were angry at him for not joining their churches and then stating that he had a Vision.

Untrue again.

Reports that young Joseph had been a "money-digger" with the aid of a "peep stone" (common parlance for any stone used like a fortuneteller's crystal to hunt for buried treasure) and that he had been brought to trial for such activity have long been in dispute. In recent years, however, these reports have been substantiated by the discovery of what is believed to be Judge Neely's bill of costs for that trial, set at $2.68, in which Joseph Smith is designated as "the glass-looker," and charged with a misdemeanor

Josiah Stowell testified to his belief in Joseph's skill with the stone, and other witnesses described the stone as white and transparent, and said that in it Joseph could see objects at a distance. Another witness, Jonathan Thompson, who professed faith in Joseph's stone, said that Joseph had gone with him and a man named Yeomans one night at Yeomans's request to look for a chest of money. Thompson said that the diggers struck something which was probably the chest, but because of the enchantment, it kept settling away from them.

Besides the evidence from this trial, there is testimony from early Mormons that Joseph had searched for treasure, that to some extent he had accepted the myths which often accompanied belief in buried treasure at that time and that a number of his close friends in the church were "money-diggers" and rodsmen.

Brigham Young, Joseph's successor as head of the church, said that Joseph's friend and one of his first converts, Porter Rockwell, was "an eye-witness to some powers of removing the treasures of the earth. He was with certain parties that lived near by where the plates were found that contain the records of the Book of Mormon. There were a great many treasures hid up by the Nephites. Porter was with them one night where there were treasures, and they could find them easy enough, but could not obtain them."

According to Brigham, Joseph said in 1841, "every man who lived on the earth is entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness."

Another early convert who was important in Mormon history, Martin Harris, said that after he learned Joseph had found the gold plates, he and two others "took some tools to go to the hill and hunt for some more boxes, or gold or something, and indeed we found a stone box. We got excited about it and dug quite carefully around it, and we were ready to take it up, but behold by some unseen power, it slipped back into the hill."

Martin Harris said elsewhere that Joseph and his father belonged to a company of "money diggers" who worked in Palmyra, Manchester, and other areas.

As for P. Tucker, even if he knew the Smith Family, that doesn't mean that he would not lie. If he didn't like Joseph, wouldn't he always be trying to demean him when talking about him to his friends?

Oh, right. "He reads books!!" What an insult!!

Again, where would he have gotten the money, or the time, to read such books. As I recall, Joseph preferred to spend his free time playing games with other children.

And I'm sure with the Eerie Canal being worked on, and being so close to the shipping ports, he heard from sailors who had stories of their adventures, which included the seaports they visited (Moroni included)and their stories of Captain Kidd and other pirates were probably told.

Krusader

June 6th 2005, 11:48 AM

The first vision account of Smith in which he named Nephi not Moroni as the communicating angel is in an early personal diary.

ce35_41

December 10th 2005, 08:23 PM

Or, you could just go on the Mormon archaeology cruise.

http://www.meridiantrips.com/index.php?showpage=orderpage.php&ID=8&PHPSESSID=7f0ab2113bf0db9d0ccccf3841db24a4

I wonder what sites they actually see from the boat, since much of the BoM is fiction.

truthman

You should check out www.hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com
There is a Hill Cumorah in Mexico, and that is where
Moroni battled. God still talks and guides us to truth today!

Bill the Cat

December 10th 2005, 11:42 PM

You should check out www.hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com
There is a Hill Cumorah in Mexico, and that is where
Moroni battled. God still talks and guides us to truth today!
Too bad Joseph said, and the LDS church says it is in New York... and that site is a bunch of RLDS members who have no sanction from the leadership and no evidence on their side.

And don't you mean hill camora, like in the original?

ce35_41

December 14th 2005, 05:24 PM

Too bad Joseph said, and the LDS church says it is in New York... and that site is a bunch of RLDS members who have no sanction from the leadership and no evidence on their side.

And don't you mean hill camora, like in the original?

What I mean is not only was the battle in Mexico,
but they even found something. If you go to
www.hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com
you can see all the testimonies and their findings
thus far.

Krusader

December 14th 2005, 07:33 PM

What I mean is not only was the battle in Mexico,
but they even found something. If you go to
www.hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com (http://www.hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com/)
you can see all the testimonies and their findings
thus far.

Sorry, guy, but I did take a look at that site. Their "Proclamation Tablet" is not evidence of any kind of Hebrew civilization. I've seen better rocks at sites in the SW. I'd say that there are no inscriptions whatsoever - rather abrasions and such that occur naturally.

Anyway, anything found in Mexico is of no help to establishing the truth of Mormonism - now, if you dig up something in New York........

Bill the Cat

December 15th 2005, 11:29 AM

What I mean is not only was the battle in Mexico,

There were many battles in Mexico. However, I see none that reflect the final battle in the BOM. Perhaps you'd like to post some parallels other than surface similarities (like it happened near a hill)

but they even found something. If you go to
www.hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com
you can see all the testimonies and their findings
thus far.

As far as the stone they found, I was so amazed at how many "maybe" and "could be" statements that morphed into fact. Let a known archaeologist look at it, then make his decision. Until then, it is simply scrawlings on a rock with no hints of anything. Also of note is the fact that Ogam didn't have an organized alphabet until after the Benedictine Monks came well after the time that the fictional Lehi left from Jerusalem.

I also notice that these "Married Ogam" characters show no hint of looking like the characters on the famed Anthon script that were supposedly written by Joseph's hand and copied from the original gold plates.

Interesting that they described some of the characters as Ogam, which is not semitic, but Celtic:

The Celts were the only people to use ogam, using it as a form of secret communication

Ogam is not semitic, so their insistence on translating it into Hebrew was dishonest.

Mountain Mover

December 17th 2005, 01:58 AM

Bill the Cat

December 17th 2005, 12:06 PM

First off, if we are going to be honest then we must address your claim that they are "less than honest" for transliteration into Hebrew. Ogahm is a script not a language so you have to go to what you think the language is that was being used, thus their apparent belief in transliterating into the Hebrew language. To imply that it isn't possible to use Ogahm in another language, other than Celtic, is just plain wrong.

No one has ever used Ogam except the Celts. Supposedly, the markings were Ogam, so that would make the recorder of the markings Celtic, not Hebrew. the fictional Nephites and Lamanites were supposedly Hebrew, and were said to write "reformed Egyptian" not Ogam. IF (and that is a HUGE if) these characters were Ogam, they were scripted by someone with a descendant who was Celtic.

As far as translating the text, it is dishonest. There was no morphology from Hebrew to Ogam nor from Ogam to Hebrew, let alone reformed egyptian. Anyone who has done ancient text translation knows that incinuating a translation from one language or script to another that had no common ancestry is a horrible way to translate. It would be like trying to incinuate that a sanskrit text could be translated to African bushman.

Secondly, the idea that Joseph Smith said that the hill in NY is Cumorah from the BoM is wrong. There is no record - in his own hand, that states that.

Oh, I get it... Moroni picked up the records there in Mexico and reburied them in New York for Joseph to dig up :no:

Alot of other people claimed that he said it but he wasn't around to correct them.

So how do you suppose the "plates" got into the hill for Joseph to dig up? Did he get whisked away to Mexico?

He did however say that the people that Stephens and Catherwood had just discovered in MesoAmerica - Copan, were the people of the BoM. He stated that in the "Times and Seasons".

He made a bunch of foolish claims like that. Must I remind you of the Zelph incident where he claimed that Zelph was known from the Hill Cumorah, which he called the Eastern Sea, to the Rockies and that he was killed during the last great battle of the Lamanites and Nephites, which took place at the hill Cumorah??

That the LDS still claim that the hill in NY is the same hill is their problem, the rest of us BoM believers don't have that stigmatism.

Too bad Joseph got them from the same hill that they were buried in... the same hill that Moroni showed him in the first visit.

Similarities to the hill in the BoM are easy to find if one knows what to look for. The geography is given very plainly in the BoM.

Actually, it is rather vague, and many have tried to reproduce it and failed.

The artifacts that are being found in Mexico are those of battle. There are Mayan weapons - the Nephite and Lamanites and Olmec - the Jaredites.

Your insistence that these, who are of no hint of Semitic descent, actually are Jewish has been shown over and over to be bogus.

There are no structures near this hill that would have supported any civilization and it is well known that Neither the Maya nor the Olmec lived in this area.

The area of Oaxaca was inhabited. The Zapotec Indians (http://www.nativeamericans.com/Zapotec.htm) inhabited the area 2500 years ago.

So then the odds of both civilizations having major battles at the same remote spot are very long, yet the archaeological evidence is there to prove it.

The Zapotec had dealings with both groups, so the odds are markedly improved.

And it is Cumorah, not Camora.

Mountain Mover

So why did the original printed version in all instances print it as camora?

Krusader

December 20th 2005, 07:46 PM

So why did the original printed version in all instances print it as camora?

Actually, "camora" in the Nephite language is Camden, and the Hill Cumorah is found in New Jersey.

ce35_41

December 20th 2005, 07:55 PM

Too bad Joseph said, and the LDS church says it is in New York... and that site is a bunch of RLDS members who have no sanction from the leadership and no evidence on their side.

And don't you mean hill camora, like in the original?

Actually LDS not just RLDS is looking for Hill Cumorah in Mexico.
An archeologist from LDS wrote a book Looking for Hill Cumorah.
His findings lead him to Mexico.

Verdetta Simmons wrote People Places and Prophecy.
She also feels the Hill Cumorah is in Mexico.

Neil Steede wrote Cumorah. It is also based
the Hill is in Mexico.

ce35_41

December 20th 2005, 08:03 PM

The plate found in Mexico recently
does have two mouths on it.
The archeologists say this means
"speaking something."
The language according to Nephite
towards the start of the BOM
was changed. Probably some
Hebrew mixed with something
else so that no one would
know their language.
The BOM mentions the river
taking them out to sea.
The Sidon River in Mexico
flow from south to north.
This would take you out
to sea. Not bring sea into
you.

Krusader

January 4th 2006, 06:53 PM

master_mormon

February 12th 2006, 06:32 PM

Bill the Cat

February 12th 2006, 07:09 PM

I agree 100%. When Joseph Smith was on the internet and did a search for names of places to use in the Book of Mormon, he came upon a map in 1828 that had these names and he got the idea of incorporating the word into the Book of Mormon.

:ahem:

He lived a mile or two away from a shipping port, where traders would tell tales of Captain Kidd's adventures on the island of Camorah. Moroni was the name of one of the towns there at that time.

It all makes perfect sense. While Joseph Smith was simply making up the entire text,

He didn't make it all up. He used portions of the Bible, probably some local stuff from the library (seeing as how there were several books claiming the native Americans were ancestors of the Jews), and his fertile immagination (as testified to by his mother).

he got a brain freeze and could not make up a creative name so he searched for hours to find a name he could not make up

He didn't need to search. It was a great local port story.

(unlike all the other names in the Book of Mormon that he clearly just made up in his mind)

More like just mashed most of them from 2 or 3 biblical character names.

and found "Comoros" and suddenly his mind when "Bingo".

That was Camorah, exactly the name of the island with a pirate town called Moroni.

Yes I believe now.

If only that were true, but like the others, it is bainwashed into your head that these fictional places, people, and events really happened.

Its all a fraud

I couldn't have said it any better...

master_mormon

February 12th 2006, 08:56 PM

:ahem:

He lived a mile or two away from a shipping port, where traders would tell tales of Captain Kidd's adventures on the island of Camorah. Moroni was the name of one of the towns there at that time.

He didn't make it all up. He used portions of the Bible, probably some local stuff from the library (seeing as how there were several books claiming the native Americans were ancestors of the Jews), and his fertile immagination (as testified to by his mother).

He didn't need to search. It was a great local port story.

More like just mashed most of them from 2 or 3 biblical character names.

That was Camorah, exactly the name of the island with a pirate town called Moroni.

If only that were true, but like the others, it is bainwashed into your head that these fictional places, people, and events really happened.

I couldn't have said it any better...

I am just speechless. Such a convincing arguement. Well know that we have established the Book of Mormon is a fraud, should we spend time showing that the Bible is a fraud?

master_mormon

February 12th 2006, 09:00 PM

:ahem:

He lived a mile or two away from a shipping port, where traders would tell tales of Captain Kidd's adventures on the island of Camorah. Moroni was the name of one of the towns there at that time.

He didn't make it all up. He used portions of the Bible, probably some local stuff from the library (seeing as how there were several books claiming the native Americans were ancestors of the Jews), and his fertile immagination (as testified to by his mother).

He didn't need to search. It was a great local port story.

More like just mashed most of them from 2 or 3 biblical character names.

That was Camorah, exactly the name of the island with a pirate town called Moroni.

If only that were true, but like the others, it is bainwashed into your head that these fictional places, people, and events really happened.

I couldn't have said it any better...

Curious, i am not aware of any contemporary people in Joseph Smith's time making this an arguement against the Book of Mormon. After all, if an unlearned man from a small hick town in New York found this information, surely there would have been plenty of more educated men in the 1830's who would have drawn the connection. Do you have citations of critics in the 1830's who made this a criticism against the book of mormon?

Bill the Cat

February 12th 2006, 09:03 PM

I am just speechless. Such a convincing arguement. Well know that we have established the Book of Mormon is a fraud, should we spend time showing that the Bible is a fraud?
tell you what... You produce a manuscript dating from before 1800 AD for a single passage unique to the BOM that wasn't ripped from the Bible and I'll show you one or two manuscripts from the NT that predate 1800. Until you get that, your "golden bible" is a fraud. It gets the culture, religion, geography, flora, fauna, coinage, language, warfare, instruments, and so many other things completely wrong.

Bill the Cat

February 12th 2006, 09:32 PM

Curious, i am not aware of any contemporary people in Joseph Smith's time making this an arguement against the Book of Mormon. After all, if an unlearned man from a small hick town in New York found this information, surely there would have been plenty of more educated men in the 1830's who would have drawn the connection. Do you have citations of critics in the 1830's who made this a criticism against the book of mormon?

Pomeroy Tucker said that Joseph had read the stories of Capt Kidd:

"Joseph ... had learned to read comprehensively ... [reading] works of fiction and records of criminality, such for instance as would be classed with the 'dime novels' of the present day. The stories of Stephen Buroughs and Captain Kidd, and the like, presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions." P. Tucker (Vogel vol 3, pp. 93-94):

Why no one else made the connection, I can not say. How many whalers took the time to read the BOM? But again, what are the odds that the first two unique BOM names from Joseph in this entire history were so closely connected geographically, and so closely related to piracy and money digging?

master_mormon

February 13th 2006, 02:21 PM

tell you what... You produce a manuscript dating from before 1800 AD for a single passage unique to the BOM that wasn't ripped from the Bible and I'll show you one or two manuscripts from the NT that predate 1800. Until you get that, your "golden bible" is a fraud. It gets the culture, religion, geography, flora, fauna, coinage, language, warfare, instruments, and so many other things completely wrong.

A truely bizarre response. You will show me one or two manuscripts from the New Testament that predate 1800? I don't think anyone has asserted that the New Testament was a 19th century. You want a passage from the book of mormon that is unique to the Book of Mormon and not the Bible. Fine 1 Nephi 1:1 and keep reading after that. You should find many passages that are unique to the Book of Mormon that have little relation to Bible passages.

master_mormon

February 13th 2006, 02:24 PM

Pomeroy Tucker said that Joseph had read the stories of Capt Kidd:

"Joseph ... had learned to read comprehensively ... [reading] works of fiction and records of criminality, such for instance as would be classed with the 'dime novels' of the present day. The stories of Stephen Buroughs and Captain Kidd, and the like, presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions." P. Tucker (Vogel vol 3, pp. 93-94):

Why no one else made the connection, I can not say. How many whalers took the time to read the BOM? But again, what are the odds that the first two unique BOM names from Joseph in this entire history were so closely connected geographically, and so closely related to piracy and money digging?

Tucker made no connection between Cumorah in the Book of Mormon and the island that was being discussed. You also fail to explain how Tucker would know of Joseph Smith's reading habits. Especially in light that Joseph's own mother said that Joseph was not much of reader of books. As we to assume that Tucker knew Joseph Smith's reading habits better than his own mother?

Bill the Cat

February 13th 2006, 02:30 PM

A truely bizarre response. You will show me one or two manuscripts from the New Testament that predate 1800? I don't think anyone has asserted that the New Testament was a 19th century.

Yet the assertation has been made that the BOM is a 19th century production. If you want to dispel this accusation, please provide manuscript evidence or inscription evidence, or coinage that verifies the BOM is ancient.

You want a passage from the book of mormon that is unique to the Book of Mormon and not the Bible. Fine 1 Nephi 1:1 and keep reading after that. You should find many passages that are unique to the Book of Mormon that have little relation to Bible passages.

Yet there isn't a shred of evidence that any of it is older than the 1800s. It is a product of that time period, and nothing more.

Bill the Cat

February 13th 2006, 03:45 PM

Tucker made no connection between Cumorah in the Book of Mormon and the island that was being discussed.

Why would he? His intent was to document the rise of Mormonism, and the history of the Smith family in Palmyra, not look at individual forgeries from the BOM.

You also fail to explain how Tucker would know of Joseph Smith's reading habits.

He interviewed people who knew Joseph. He was a very long term inhabitant of Palmyra.

Especially in light that Joseph's own mother said that Joseph was not much of reader of books.

Yet, while he dated Emma, he attended school. School involves reading, does it not? Did his mother know what books he read at school?

Even his father referred to Joseph as the "genus of the family,"

As we to assume that Tucker knew Joseph Smith's reading habits better than his own mother?

Tucker talked to more people than just Joseph's mother. She probably saw little of him during the day, but also said enough that Joseph would spin tales about the inhabitants of the continent. His imagination was fertile and he discussed many of the issues being discussed during that time period. Captain Kidd was possibly one of those things, as Tucker related this as fact.

Sparko

September 30th 2009, 01:00 PM

nrajeff

September 30th 2009, 05:05 PM

Slow week, can't come up with anything new or original to hawk, so it's time to recycle a 3-year-old thread? Al Gore will be pleased that you are into "re-use, recycle" philosophy... :)

Sparko

September 30th 2009, 05:28 PM

Slow week, can't come up with anything new or original to hawk, so it's time to recycle a 3-year-old thread? Al Gore will be pleased that you are into "re-use, recycle" philosophy... :)

nah. I just got to thinking after posting in the kinderhook thread that there are just way too many "coincidences" in the lds history to dismiss.

doncha think?

nrajeff

September 30th 2009, 09:33 PM

Compile an exhaustive listing of the "coincidences" in your own "tradition," and let's compare. Sounds like fun.

Bill the Cat

September 30th 2009, 09:37 PM

Compile an exhaustive listing of the "coincidences" in your own "tradition," and let's compare. Sounds like fun.

Do you want to answer anything in this thread or not Jeff?

Sparko

September 30th 2009, 11:00 PM

Compile an exhaustive listing of the "coincidences" in your own "tradition," and let's compare. Sounds like fun.

You mean like how coincidentally that archeology keeps confirming the bible all the time?

Hamster

October 1st 2009, 12:07 AM

The word "mormon" has kind of a funny etymology if etym-online is right: meaning more mon, from Eng. more + Egyptian mon "good."

can anyone confirm/deny it's accuracy?

Sparko

October 1st 2009, 12:33 AM

The word "mormon" has kind of a funny etymology if etym-online is right: meaning more mon, from Eng. more + Egyptian mon "good."

can anyone confirm/deny it's accuracy?

or Smith had a wicked sense of humor and stuck an extra "m" in the middle, and an "i" on the back of Moroni. Most con men think their marks are idiots and maybe Smith couldn't help but mock them with his own con figuring they would never figure it out even when he was so blatant in his naming.

Hamster

October 1st 2009, 12:49 AM

well I'm not an expert in languages but the "Mor" referring to the English "more" (why not the greek 'ancestor' of the word?) unnaturally attached to an egyptian word just seems weird.

nrajeff

October 1st 2009, 05:59 AM

You mean like how coincidentally that archeology keeps confirming the bible all the time?

---You mean like how all you guys thought it ridiculous that the BOM mentions barley in the precolumbian New World, boys named Alma, important records kept on metal plates and stored for safekeeping in stone boxes, advanced cement technology by ancient Americans.....and discoveries that later showed all those things to be historical FACT are just "coincidences" ?

Sparko

October 1st 2009, 10:59 AM

---You mean like how all you guys thought it ridiculous that the BOM mentions barley in the precolumbian New World, boys named Alma, important records kept on metal plates and stored for safekeeping in stone boxes, advanced cement technology by ancient Americans.....and discoveries that later showed all those things to be historical FACT are just "coincidences" ?

riiiight. Like how the Barley thing is brought up, Mormons always quote the same article by Daniel B. Adams in Science 83, "Last Ditch Archeology" but when you search, you can find nothing on this guy, what his credentials are, you can't find the article anywhere except in quotes by mormons, and the Indians he was excavating existed up until the 1400's and we now know that europeans had been to the new world before columbus (vikings and such) and could have brought grains with them.

I would expect someone who made as many claims as Smith did in the BoM to get a few things right, just because of the shotgun principle. I see you didn't mention horses, honeybees, elephants, silk and numerous other anachronisms that have failed to be substantiated from the BoM.

The Curtmudgeon

October 1st 2009, 11:12 AM

The word "mormon" has kind of a funny etymology if etym-online is right: meaning more mon, from Eng. more + Egyptian mon "good."

can anyone confirm/deny it's accuracy?

Wow. He attributes that "etymology" to Smith himself! That's enough right there to spike the whole Mormon religion -- Joe admitting that he invented the name "Mormon" using an English word that didn't exist at the time of Mormon's so-called "existence".

That's just too good to be true, unless it were supported by an actual cite of Joe saying it. As much as I accept that it's all an invention, I'd be leary of using that without proof that Joe actually said it. Otherwise, it's just someone's unsupported opinion.

The (but if it were true ... it would put 'paid' to the whole scam) Curtmudgeon

nrajeff

October 1st 2009, 05:27 PM

riiiight. Like how the Barley thing is brought up, Mormons always quote the same article by Daniel B. Adams in Science 83, "Last Ditch Archeology" but when you search, you can find nothing on this guy, what his credentials are, you can't find the article anywhere except in quotes by mormons, and the Indians he was excavating existed up until the 1400's and we now know that europeans had been to the new world before columbus (vikings and such) and could have brought grains with them.
--It took me 30 seconds to find this:

Barley samples dated to the Middle Woodland (early centuries A.D.) and Late Woodland (A.D. 600—1050) cultural periods indicate that pre-Columbian barley was both known and cultivated over an extended period in the New World. "It is reasonable to conclude," states archaeologist Vorsila L. Bohrer, who directed the work associated with these discoveries, "that we are looking at a North American domesticated grain crop whose existence has not [previously] been suspected."

So much for "The barley could have been introduced shortly before Columbus by a Viking" and so much for "Daniel Adams is the only source for this claim" plus, I think the DNA of the barley samples shows that it was not European barley these tribes were growing. It was NATIVE to the Americas. But other than those 3 strikes, nice try, Sparko! :smile:
I would expect someone who made as many claims as Smith did in the BoM to get a few things right,
---How many is "a few" and at what point does the probability that they were just lucky shotgun guesses go down, and the probability that the BOM's claims have support go up ? Quantify, please.

Sparko

October 1st 2009, 05:41 PM

--It took me 30 seconds to find this:

Barley samples dated to the Middle Woodland (early centuries A.D.) and Late Woodland (A.D. 600—1050) cultural periods indicate that pre-Columbian barley was both known and cultivated over an extended period in the New World. "It is reasonable to conclude," states archaeologist Vorsila L. Bohrer, who directed the work associated with these discoveries, "that we are looking at a North American domesticated grain crop whose existence has not [previously] been suspected."

So much for "The barley could have been introduced shortly before Columbus by a Viking" and so much for "Daniel Adams is the only source for this claim" plus, I think the DNA of the barley samples shows that it was not European barley these tribes were growing. It was NATIVE to the Americas. But other than those 3 strikes, nice try, Sparko! :smile:

yet another quote that only appears in LDS literature.

---How many is "a few" and at what point does the probability that they were just lucky shotgun guesses go down, and the probability that the BOM's claims have support go up ? Quantify, please.

when there are some archeological evidences for the Nephites. Even if barley existed in the new world there is no evidence that there were nephites there to use it.

Country Preacher

October 1st 2009, 05:55 PM

Sparko

October 1st 2009, 06:55 PM

yeah. what other ancient civilization used gold plates to store documents on in stone boxes?

Country Preacher

October 1st 2009, 07:09 PM

yeah. what other ancient civilization used gold plates to store documents on in stone boxes?

It was the precursor of the HARD DRIVE!!!! We store info on round plates in metal boxes!

Bill the Cat

October 1st 2009, 10:12 PM

---You mean like how all you guys thought it ridiculous that the BOM mentions barley in the precolumbian New World,

:sigh: Must we trod this under foot again? The "barley" was found in North America, not Mesoamerica. Soil core samples in Mexico and Belize show no barley pollen from any of the time frame of the supposed BOM peoples.

boys named Alma

Answered that already.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=2459730&postcount=29

important records kept on metal plates and stored for safekeeping in stone boxes,

:doh: 1 Macabees records records on "tables of brass", nd 1 Macabees was in Joseph's family bible.

In 1820, for example, the Archaeologia Americana reported that human bones had been discovered in some mounds "enclosed in rude stone coffins." A similar stone box, described by John Haywood of Tennessee, was made by placing "four stones standing upright, and so placed in relation to each other, as to form a square or box, which enclosed a skeleton." Stone boxes of various sizes and shapes had reportedly been found in Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri, Ohio, New York, and other places.

advanced cement technology by ancient Americans.....

The BOM describes HOUSES made of cement. and the "cement" found in Mesoamerica was only used for roads, never for houses.

and discoveries that later showed all those things to be historical FACT are just "coincidences" ?

Or just wrong.

nrajeff

October 2nd 2009, 12:32 PM

Bill, last time I checked, precolumbian North America is considered part of precolumbian America.

Bill the Cat

October 2nd 2009, 12:57 PM

Bill, last time I checked, precolumbian North America is considered part of precolumbian America.

And? Are you claiming that the nephites and lamanites inhabited the entire area of North America?

nrajeff

October 2nd 2009, 04:29 PM

And? Are you claiming that the nephites and lamanites inhabited the entire area of North America?

---Of course not. Are YOU claiming that this ancient barley was raised all over the entire area of North America? Because common sense would suggest that if the barley was only in certain areas, and the BOM people raised barley, then maybe the BOM people inhabited those areas where the barley was raised, but perhaps NOT in the areas where it WASN'T. Just a guess......

The Curtmudgeon

October 2nd 2009, 04:46 PM

---Of course not. Are YOU claiming that this ancient barley was raised all over the entire area of North America? Because common sense would suggest that if the barley was only in certain areas, and the BOM people raised barley, then maybe the BOM people inhabited those areas where the barley was raised, but perhaps NOT in the areas where it WASN'T. Just a guess......

Jeff, by any chance do you happen to know where the barley has been found in NA? Hint: it's neither Mesoamerica nor Upstate New York, the only two real contenders for the setting of Joe Smith's book.

The (so if the barley connection is right for the BOM, then almost everything else in the book is completely off geographically) Curtmudgeon

Bill the Cat

October 2nd 2009, 10:06 PM

---Of course not. Are YOU claiming that this ancient barley was raised all over the entire area of North America?

Nope. It was found in Arizona with the Hohokam Indians, and later near the Mississippi river valley near what is today St. Louis. But nowhere has it been found in mesoamerica.

Because common sense would suggest that if the barley was only in certain areas, and the BOM people raised barley, then maybe the BOM people inhabited those areas where the barley was raised, but perhaps NOT in the areas where it WASN'T. Just a guess......

The wild barley was picked by the Hohokam. There is no indication that they knew of another monstrously huge (in comparison to their scant numbers) society living in their back yards.

nrajeff

October 4th 2009, 01:45 AM

Jeff, by any chance do you happen to know where the barley has been found in NA? Hint: it's neither Mesoamerica nor Upstate New York, the only two real contenders for the setting of Joe Smith's book.
---You need to see the big picture. Upstate NY is only where the BATTLES occurred, the BOM need not necessarily be claiming that ALL the BOM peoples from 2000 B.C. to 400 A.D. RESIDED in that limited area. Otherwise, it's like claiming that because huge battles were fought in Gettysburg, PA, that all the civilizations of the USA for its entire history resided in the PA area.

[QUOTE]The (so if the barley connection is right for the BOM, then almost everything else in the book is completely off geographically) Curtmudgeon[/QUOTE
---Unless people and their descendants have been known to migrate in the space of 1000 years. Which, I think, they have been known to do. :pray:

Bill the Cat

October 4th 2009, 08:55 AM

---You need to see the big picture. Upstate NY is only where the BATTLES occurred, the BOM need not necessarily be claiming that ALL the BOM peoples from 2000 B.C. to 400 A.D. RESIDED in that limited area. Otherwise, it's like claiming that because huge battles were fought in Gettysburg, PA, that all the civilizations of the USA for its entire history resided in the PA area.

---Unless people and their descendants have been known to migrate in the space of 1000 years. Which, I think, they have been known to do. :pray:

So you are not a limited geography proponent then?

nrajeff

October 5th 2009, 08:57 AM

So you are not a limited geography proponent then?
---I think I am, since I think I agree with this description of it by FARMS:
"...people once associated with the activities recorded in the Book of Mormon may have migrated to other parts of the Americas, but the events in the narrative itself were confined to a limited region."

http://farmsnewsite.farmsresearch.com/publications/review/?vol=16&num=2&id=555

As for WHICH LGT is the correct one, I see some good points made by the proponents of each of the 3 major ones.

The Curtmudgeon

October 5th 2009, 04:04 PM

---I think I am, since I think I agree with this description of it by FARMS:
"...people once associated with the activities recorded in the Book of Mormon may have migrated to other parts of the Americas, but the events in the narrative itself were confined to a limited region."

http://farmsnewsite.farmsresearch.com/publications/review/?vol=16&num=2&id=555

As for WHICH LGT is the correct one, I see some good points made by the proponents of each of the 3 major ones.

But nothing in that document indicates any coincidence between the lands of the events of the BoM and the Hohokam lands in Arizona. Saying they "may have migrated to other parts of the Americas" doesn't cover it, since the three references to barley in the BoM are clearly talking about barley being raised in, and for the use of the inhabitants of, the lands of Zarahemla and Lehi-Nephi, not something they found in far-distant areas where nothing of importance happens in the BoM.

The (so just finding barley in some out-of-the-BoM-way corner of the continent won't do the LDS any good at all) Curtmudgeon

nrajeff

October 5th 2009, 06:10 PM

But nothing in that document indicates any coincidence between the lands of the events of the BoM and the Hohokam lands in Arizona.
---I think that is a fair statement. It might be sufficient just to acknowledge that it is no longer a good argument against the BOM to say "It mentions the cultivation of barley in the Precolumbian New World, and everyone knows that there was no barley in the Americas until the Europeans introduced it in the15th or 16th century, thus proving the BOM false."

You are still free, of course, to say that it's just a coincidence that the BOM mentions the barley, and it was published in a century when it was "known" that the barley didn't exist in the precolumbian Americas. But there should be a point when the number of such coincidences start to suggest that it was probably not a case of Smith being that lucky a guesser. Indeed, some anti-BOM folks have already jumped off the "coincidence" ship, and have switched to saying that it was the devil, who knows a lotta history after all, who told Smith these accurate (but at the time unknown to the experts) facts, so that the BOM could trick people into believing that it is what it claims to be.
Saying they "may have migrated to other parts of the Americas" doesn't cover it, since the three references to barley in the BoM are clearly talking about barley being raised in, and for the use of the inhabitants of, the lands of Zarahemla and Lehi-Nephi, not something they found in far-distant areas where nothing of importance happens in the BoM.
---Again, a fair statement IMO. Unless we have a good candidate for those cities that are in the regions where the barley is now known to have been cultivated, the evidence for the BOM's claims in the agriculture dept. do not rise to as high an "impressive" factor, and we must settle for the lesser "Barley in the New World--but no evidence of it being in the specific REGIONS of the New World" category. Still, it constitutes evidence supporting a BOM claim, and the claim was made in a time when "everybody knew" that there was NEVER ANY barley, anywhere in the Americas, in the BOM time frame.
The (so just finding barley in some out-of-the-BoM-way corner of the continent won't do the LDS any good at all)
--I think it does SOME good, but, as you indicate, not as much good as if barley were found to have been in ancient New England, or ancient Peru, or ancient Mexico.