How do christian parents respond to a gay adult interacting with their child?

[Rahab]

Bonsoir all.... an ongoing thread loaded with homophobic comments has raised great concern in my mind as to how as parents we respond to a gay person who is socialy interacting with our child.
Various scenarios come to mind..... a teacher, a coach, a relative....
Teacher and coach scenario..... does your appreciation of the professional skills of that person decrease the moment you are made aware he or she is gay? Do you then doubt their ability to instruct your child ? if so what course of action do you take? do you withdraw your child from the classroom? the athletic activity? do you appeal to the school board protesting that the child may be exposed to moral corruption? do you take similar action with the coach consulting with other parent to see if he or she can be fired?
Relative..... do you limit the times your child will spend with a gay uncle or aunt? will you politely decline baby sitting offers? do you distance yourself from your gay relative? are you concerned that an acceptance of that person as he or she is in your family demonstrating affection and kindness to him or her may corrupt the morals of your child?

Do you doubt or question the ability of a gay person to contribute to the happiness and welfare of your child because he or she is gay?

[Bill the Cat]

That's a very broad subject to answer. To me, it would depend on what capacity they were interacting, ie. were they alone with my child, and were they trying to do something other than the curriculum(if they were a teacher) Teaching "tolerance" is not their responsibility, it is mine and how I see fit, not them. That goes for any teacher, gay or straight.

[Paul]

If I had young children, I wouldn't want them to socially interact with any homosexuals, period.

EDITED to add:

In post #22 in this thread, I clarify what I mean by "homosexuals." Sorry for the lack of clarity in this post.

[Undomiel]

Male and female sport coaches might be a problem because they are actually sexually aligned as if they were the "opposite" sex. Since we don't legally allow female coaches into the showers and locker rooms of male students, and vice-a-versa for male coaches in female showers and locker rooms, it only stands to reason that a gay male coach would actually be better suited for teaching females lol Wow, that's confusing. Eh, just teach your kids at home. lol

[Undomiel]

I mean, I could see the made for TV movie! Recent male graduate from college, realizes his ideal paradise when he pretends to be a gay male coach and gets a job teaching females. The shower and locker room takes on a whole new meaning. lol Smorgasboard!!!

[Rahab]

Today @ 03:32 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356436#post356436)
Paul:

If I had young children, I wouldn't want them to socially interact with any homosexuals, period.
Thanks for replying..... at what age would you then allow them to socially interact with a gay person? and which measures would you take then ( any of the ones I quoted?) to prevent any social interaction with any homosexuals?

[Paul]

Today @ 07:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356446#post356446)
Undomiel:

I mean, I could see the made for TV movie! Recent male graduate from college, realizes his ideal paradise when he pretends to be a gay male coach and gets a job teaching females. The shower and locker room takes on a whole new meaning. lol Smorgasboard!!!

I'm going to send you another pearl :smile:

I should read more of your posts. They are often quite funny :smile:

EDITED to add:

Never mind. I tried to send one but it said I had too many "transfers" with you.

[Rahab]

Today @ 03:49 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356444#post356444)
Undomiel:

Male and female sport coaches might be a problem because they are actually sexually aligned as if they were the "opposite" sex. Since we don't legally allow female coaches into the showers and locker rooms of male students, and vice-a-versa for male coaches in female showers and locker rooms, it only stands to reason that a gay male coach would actually be better suited for teaching females lol Wow, that's confusing. Eh, just teach your kids at home. lol

Thanks for the touch of humor Undomiel! I was thinking of coaches not related to school curriculums and not necessarly in the context of physical contact in a locker room or shower. I was more wondering about your thoughts regarding your appreciation of the skills of a coach once you discover the person is gay. Would that demean his or her skills in your mind?

[spl_cadet]

Paul:

If I had young children, I wouldn't want them to socially interact with any homosexuals, period.

Ditto.


Rahab:

Thanks for replying..... at what age would you then allow them to socially interact with a gay person?

When they move out.



and which measures would you take then ( any of the ones I quoted?) to prevent any social interaction with any homosexuals?

Whatever is necessary.

[Undomiel]

Nah, I have no reason to dislike gay people. In fact, I like several. For example, I absolutely loved Sir Ian McKellan's "Gandalf," and Sir Ian is gay. I was a huge fan of David Bowie as a teenager, and he's bisexual. There are several musicians/singers that are gay or bisexual, that I like or appreciate their talent [Elton John, for example], even if their message is not my cup of tea [although most of Elton's songs are just flat out good all the way around]. My husband put it to me this way, "I can't understand what they're saying half the time anyway! I just listen to the music!" lol If my kids were in contact with them, I would just tell the kids in advance what not to do with that individual and explain why they shouldn't if that event ever arose. Other than that, I would tell them that Jesus loves the gay/bisexual person the same as anyone else, and therefore they should be treated the same as anyone else, but to just remember the life choices they've made are incorrect. Heck, for that matter I've told them about life style choices I have made in the past that were wrong and as a result I have lasting problems today, so I'm not going to spare them telling them that the alternative lifestyle choices of homosexuals and bisexuals is wrong, because in my eyes it is, but so are alot of other things.

If the person were a coach in phys ed tho, I'd be reluctant for the reasons I've already stated, but not to the degree that I would insist they be moved to a new class. Instead, I'd just pull them out of the school myself so that judgement call wouldn't be in the hands of my child or the school system. HOWEVER, ONLY because you mentioned phys ed connection and the first thing that popped into my head is how that would make the locker/shower room a co-ed experience and not because I think they'd be poor coaches! Being homosexual and/or bisexual does not make you less talented, effective or efficient.

[Rahab]

Today @ 05:06 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356472#post356472)
Undomiel:

Nah, I have no reason to dislike gay people. In fact, I like several. For example, I absolutely loved Sir Ian McKellan's "Gandalf," and Sir Ian is gay. I was a huge fan of David Bowie as a teenager, and he's bisexual. There are several musicians/singers that are gay or bisexual, that I like or appreciate their talent [Elton John, for example], even if their message is not my cup of tea [although most of Elton's songs are just flat out good all the way around]. My husband put it to me this way, "I can't understand what they're saying half the time anyway! I just listen to the music!" lol If my kids were in contact with them, I would just tell the kids in advance what not to do with that individual and explain why they shouldn't if that event ever arose. Other than that, I would tell them that Jesus loves the gay/bisexual person the same as anyone else, and therefore they should be treated the same as anyone else, but to just remember the life choices they've made are incorrect. Heck, for that matter I've told them about life style choices I have made in the past that were wrong and as a result I have lasting problems today, so I'm not going to spare them telling them that the alternative lifestyle choices of homosexuals and bisexuals is wrong, because in my eyes it is, but so are alot of other things.

If the person were a coach in phys ed tho, I'd be reluctant for the reasons I've already stated, but not to the degree that I would insist they be moved to a new class. Instead, I'd just pull them out of the school myself so that judgement call wouldn't be in the hands of my child or the school system. HOWEVER, ONLY because you mentioned phys ed connection and the first thing that popped into my head is how that would make the locker/shower room a co-ed experience and not because I think they'd be poor coaches! Being homosexual and/or bisexual does not make you less talented, effective or efficient.

Thanks for you detailed reply. I noticed that at times homosexuality is also percieved as pedophilia. Is that why you would talk to your children of what they should not do with that adult or would you give them a "prep talk" on the physical distance and limits with ANY adult they may be alone with?

I appreciate Elton John's talent as an artist and the fact he is gay has never impaired me to recognize that talent. I agree with you that homosexuality does not demean the potential for the human being to be talented, effective or efficient.

[Undomiel]

Today @ 05:27 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356481#post356481)
Rahab:



Thanks for you detailed reply. I noticed that at times homosexuality is also percieved as pedophilia. Is that why you would talk to your children of what they should not do with that adult or would you give them a "prep talk" on the physical distance and limits with ANY adult they may be alone with?

I appreciate Elton John's talent as an artist and the fact he is gay has never impaired me to recognize that talent. I agree with you that homosexuality does not demean the potential for the human being to be talented, effective or efficient.


Well I question the veracity of the pedophilia claim. When I was 16, I was dating an elementary school teacher [and he was absolutely gorgeous], so I'm not entirely sure that I would consider it pedophilia if say a 25 year old gay male coach had a crush on a 17 year old male student, for example. What's the current age for pedophilia charges?

[Rahab]

Today @ 04:44 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356466#post356466)
spl_cadet:



Ditto.



When they move out.



Whatever is necessary.
Including all the measures I mentionned? getting the person fired, protesting to the school board, distancing yourself from the gay relative etc......
I assume you therefor believe that the skills and potential of a human being are to be dismissed if he or she is homosexual? can you please clarify on that important point?
How will you explain to your children that Christ loves the sinner and hates the sin yet your measures would result in treating the sinner as a sub human whose qualities and skills are meaningless to you ? I can see children confront parents on such contradictions as mine often did in the past.

[Rahab]

Today @ 05:32 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356484#post356484)
Undomiel:




Well I question the veracity of the pedophilia claim. When I was 16, I was dating an elementary school teacher [and he was absolutely gorgeous], so I'm not entirely sure that I would consider it pedophilia if say a 25 year old gay male coach had a crush on a 17 year old male student, for example. What's the current age for pedophilia charges?
I am not sure Undomiel. I would assume that it falls under the same age as statutory rape depending on which state it occurs.
I asked you the question because I have percieved that some folks who protect their children from any contact with homosexuals do it for fear of pedophiliac activity. Which IMO can happen with heterosexuals and is not necessarly to be attributed to homosexuals.
I wonder how many cases of child molestation cases occur within the same family between same gender compared to mixed gender cases.

[Paul]

Christ loves the sinner and this is how He expressed in words His love for the sinner as well as his love for the "little ones":

Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.

It is not treating a homosexual as subhuman to protect one's children from him. If I had young children I would protect them from homosexuals -- including any hypothetical homosexual relatives -- just as I would seek to protect them from Satanist relatives for example. I would still love and have affection for any hypothetical homosexual relatives just as I would so wrt to any hypothetical Satanist relatives. In light of Jesus' words above it would seem that shielding one's children from homosexuals would actually be an act of charity towards the homosexuals insofar as it prevents them from being subject to the curse or "woe" that Jesus speaks of there.

[Rahab]

Today @ 05:53 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356495#post356495)
Paul:

Christ loves the sinner and this is how He expressed in words His love for the sinner as well as his love for the "little ones":

Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.

It is not treating a homosexual as subhuman to protect one's children from him. If I had young children I would protect them from homosexuals -- including any hypothetical homosexual relatives -- just as I would seek to protect them from Satanist relatives for example. I would still love and have affection for any hypothetical homosexual relatives just as I would so wrt to any hypothetical Satanist relatives. In light of Jesus' words above it would seem that shielding one's children from homosexuals would actually be an act of charity towards the homosexuals insofar as it prevents them from being subject to the curse or "woe" that Jesus speaks of there.

I would appreciate if you answer the questions I addressed to you. I am sure SPl Cadet can answer the questions I addressed to him according to his reply.
Let me remind you what specific questions I addressed to you previously :
At what age then would you allow them to interact with a gay person?
What measures would you take (any I quoted?) to keep them from interacting with any homosexual person?
In terms of your scriptural presentation I would like to keep this thread free of any suggestions that homosexuals deserve to be either drowned or put to death as they would lead your child into sin by socially interacting with them whether they be a teacher, a coach or a relative. Such violents statements are not welcome in a thread intended to examine how christian parents deal with social interaction with a gay person.

Incitation to possible physical harm to gay individuals is not part of my quest.

[Paul]

Today @ 09:32 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356484#post356484)
Undomiel:




Well I question the veracity of the pedophilia claim. When I was 16, I was dating an elementary school teacher [and he was absolutely gorgeous], so I'm not entirely sure that I would consider it pedophilia if say a 25 year old gay male coach had a crush on a 17 year old male student, for example. What's the current age for pedophilia charges?

Medically speaking pedophilia is defined as an attraction to pre-pubescent children experienced by persons over a certain age. You probably weren't pre-pubescent at age 16 so your elementary school teacher would not have been a pedophile medically speaking.

I actually don't see anything necessarily wrong with a 16 year old girl dating an elementary school teacher (though I know nothing about your particular situation) as long as it is a chaste and honorable relationship and the girl's parents approve.

Homosexual abuse though I think is a different matter. As a Christian and as a human being, I consider homosexuality to be always wrong. There is a statistical correlation between homosexuality and abuse of children or minors (which again would not necessarily be classified as pedophilia medically speaking). If I had grown children -- say who were 20 years old -- I still wouldn't want them to be around homosexuals unless it was with supervision and/or they were sufficiently grounded in their Christian faith to not be led astray by them.

[spl_cadet]

Rahab:

Including all the measures I mentionned? getting the person fired, protesting to the school board, distancing yourself from the gay relative etc......

Well, I plan to homeschool any kids I have, so no need to get someone fired.

But as I said, any thing I needed to do, up to and including a restraining order if need be.



I assume you therefor believe that the skills and potential of a human being are to be dismissed if he or she is homosexual? can you please clarify on that important point?

No, but I wouldn't want one of my children around one of them.



How will you explain to your children that Christ loves the sinner and hates the sin yet your measures would result in treating the sinner as a sub human whose qualities and skills are meaningless to you ? I can see children confront parents on such contradictions as mine often did in the past.

For their own protection. The recent homosexuality crisis in the priesthood weighs heavily in the minds of Catholics.

[Rahab]

[QUOTE]Today @ 06:48 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356514#post356514)
spl_cadet:



Well, I plan to homeschool any kids I have, so no need to get someone fired.

MY ANSWER : as I specified to Undomiel earlier I meant a coach not related to school instruction. Will you also keep your children from athletic activities or allow them and possibly take measures against a gay coach?

But as I said, any thing I needed to do, up to and including a restraining order if need be.

MY ANSWER : the obtention of a restraining order based on race,gender,nationality, religion or lack of religion or sexual orientation will be quite difficult to obtain as you will need to present to the court probable cause that harm is done to your child by either of those categories. I am not sure you realize that judges do not give in to prejudicial arguments to grant a restraining order.



No, but I wouldn't want one of my children around one of them.

MY ANSWER : no.... to which point? you not would take measures which would signify an intent to treat homosexuals as unable to be efficient or skilled individuals or you would not teach your children that Christ loves the sinner but hates the sin? Please clarify where your "no" comes in place.



For their own protection. The recent homosexuality crisis in the priesthood weighs heavily in the minds of Catholics.

My ANSWER :

I can understand that argument..... I assume then that you would apply the same protective measures from priests too.

[Patroclus]

Before I start, I want to make two statements.

1) Please forgive my inexperience in that I am not a parent, and that what I have to say is speculative.

2) Rahab, I think you are going to have a problem with the word "coach." In America, a coach is almost always an athletic coach related to an academic institution. I think you might want to give a specific example for the sake of clarity.


Rahab:

Bonsoir all.... an ongoing thread loaded with homophobic comments has raised great concern in my mind as to how as parents we respond to a gay person who is socialy interacting with our child.

Just a brief moment of criticism - perhaps beginning with the word "homophobic" will put readers and potential responders on the defensive, as it is a term that is usually perjorative, and thereby taint the discussion.


Various scenarios come to mind..... a teacher, a coach, a relative....
Teacher and coach scenario..... does your appreciation of the professional skills of that person decrease the moment you are made aware he or she is gay?

I have had several gay teachers. All but one of them were good teachers.


Do you then doubt their ability to instruct your child ?

No


if so what course of action do you take? do you withdraw your child from the classroom? the athletic activity? do you appeal to the school board protesting that the child may be exposed to moral corruption? do you take similar action with the coach consulting with other parent to see if he or she can be fired?

It seems that you are equating a lack of competence to a moral judgement. I think that most people would agree that intelligent and capable Homosexuals are as likely as a capable and intelligent Heterosexual. I think you are probing to see whether or not people will dissasociate from a person based on his or her sexual orientation.


Relative..... do you limit the times your child will spend with a gay uncle or aunt?

I don't think so. As long as the person does not make sexual advances towards my child, I am okay with time together (Homo or hetero). However, I will teach my children that homosexual activity is sinful.


will you politely decline baby sitting offers?

I don't think so, but then again, I do not have gay relatives (that I know of anyway). The relatives I do have, I do not trust for other reasons. So, it is hard to say.


do you distance yourself from your gay relative?

I have no experience. I would hope that I would not distance myself based on their sexual orientation alone.


are you concerned that an acceptance of that person as he or she is in your family demonstrating affection and kindness to him or her may corrupt the morals of your child?

Well, what is acceptance? I can accept a gay person as a person. I have gay friends, and I have worked with gay people. I respect them all, and in the case of my friends, I love them in brotherhood (they are not practicing homosexuals - they believe that homosexual activity is sinful). However, I will not accept confrontation with homosexual activity.


Do you doubt or question the ability of a gay person to contribute to the happiness and welfare of your child because he or she is gay?

No, I do not.

:pat:

[Rahab]

Thank you for indicating to me terms I should clarify. I really appreciate your awareness that I at times have a cultural delay or gap when I use certain terms.

OK..... coach I mean an independent coach not related to academic instruction. YMCA swim coach, soccer local little league, etc.....a person who spends time instructing your child on athletic skills. Voila! tada!

Homophobic..... I meant to express comments which reveal a dislike for homosexuals past their sinful condition. In other words where the character of the person is being demeaned based on their sexual orientation. Where the sin is considered without maintaining an attitude of love.

Thanks for all your replies. I really have no comments to what you shared. Except that I appreciate your style and making it that I need not to ask for any clarification.

It is quite late and my bed is becoming the most inviting place I need to be.
Bonsoir to all...... will catch up sometime tomorrow.

[Paul]

Pat, I think perhaps we are using the word "homosexual" in different ways. I was using it here primarily to speak of those who embrace homosexuality (cf Romans 1) and also those who are prone to fail in their struggle against homosexuality. If a person had some homosexual inclinations but they were never a significant problem for him and he knew what was right and wrong and his heart was set on pleasing the Lord, I wouldn't have any qualms about having my hypothetical children around him generally speaking as long as they were not alone with them and as long as their relationship with them is not an intimate one. So I wouldn't have a problem with such a person being an aloof teacher. But if he were to be a coach (IIRC after family members, coaches are the most common culprits of the sexual abuse of children or minors) or a pastor or a counselor, I would be uncomfortable with entrusting my children to his care.

PS

And on the issue of relatives, I wouldn't distance myself from a hypothetical homosexual relative any more than I would distance myself from say a Satanist relative. I would pray for him and be absolutely willing myself to speak with him and have a familial friendship with him. But I wouldn't want to have my children around him. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't invite him to family events like Thanksgiving. It may mean that I would instruct him not to be "chummy" with my children and to tell my children the same as necessary and appropriate.

[Patroclus]

You and your hypothetical people.

I am trying to imagine a hypothetical child.

[Paul]

:huh: :smile:

"hypothetical" here is just a term that is sometimes used in philosophy. A hypothetical person is just a person who may or may not exist in actuality but of whom you speak about anyway -- just as you did with respect to your hypothetical children and just as I did with respect to my hypothetical children and hypothetical relatives and so forth.

[Rahab]

Being already a parent is not a requirement to partake in this thread.

The intent of this thread is to bring us to reflect and examine our motivations in our responses hypothetical or real.

Though personal experience may be more valid in the sense that we can only assume in hypothetical situations.

[Rahab]

My children have had some degree of interaction with gay people.

Have I ever considered that the teacher's skills were demeaned by the fact that he is gay..... no I did not. I in fact was grateful that my daughter could improve her academic achievements under the instruction of her teacher.

Am I concerned that the same daughter has a best friend who is a gay male classmate and share the same passion and talent for poetry ? no I am not. In fact he has been such a motivator and example of a talented creative mind who might graduate from Performing Arts with the determination to become a famous writer.....I have attended a recent poetry creative evening at her magnet school and was moved by the extraordinary intellectual qualities of this young man. Also to point that all of his female classmates describe him as a sweet and kind hearted individual.

I have no gay relative I know of. I assume though that I would treat him or her like I would with any relative. My children are at an age where they have already been instructed as to the boundaries of proper physical affection with ANY adult. I would be protective of them if left under the care or influence of any adult who promotes hatred against other human beings.

[Esther]

Hello, Veronique! :hi: Thank you for the questions in your OP. I appreciate having my thoughts provoked.

I would like to make very clear that the way I handle a situation like the above when it's just me and the way that I handle it when it effects my kids involves two different objectives and requires two different, but not necessarily opposing, responses. I'll narrow my answers down to when my kids are involved since that is the topic of the thread. I would at some point, however, appreciate the opportunity to tell what the difference is between when it's just me and when it involves the kids.



Rahab:

Bonsoir all.... an ongoing thread loaded with homophobic comments has raised great concern in my mind as to how as parents we respond to a gay person who is socialy interacting with our child.
Various scenarios come to mind..... a teacher, a coach, a relative....
Teacher and coach scenario..... does your appreciation of the professional skills of that person decrease the moment you are made aware he or she is gay? Do you then doubt their ability to instruct your child ? if so what course of action do you take? do you withdraw your child from the classroom? the athletic activity? do you appeal to the school board protesting that the child may be exposed to moral corruption? do you take similar action with the coach consulting with other parent to see if he or she can be fired?
Relative..... do you limit the times your child will spend with a gay uncle or aunt? will you politely decline baby sitting offers? do you distance yourself from your gay relative? are you concerned that an acceptance of that person as he or she is in your family demonstrating affection and kindness to him or her may corrupt the morals of your child?

Do you doubt or question the ability of a gay person to contribute to the happiness and welfare of your child because he or she is gay?

If the person is a self-proclaimed Christian, I would see to it that they had absolutely nothing to do with my kids because their lifestyle is opposed to scripture. When a person is involved in any type of blatent, unrepentant sin, I'm going to protect my kids from their influence, whether they're a practicing homosexual, a heterosexual engaging in heterosexual immorality, a gossip, or a thief, among other things. Yes, we do limit our kids' contact with people in situations like that. They will learn the appropriate way to treat those people by seeing how we treat them. Not by being immersed in these people's examples.

One of my family members, who calls herself a Christian, is involved in a destructive situation. She insists that we need to accept her for "who she is". We need to "love" her "unconditionally". What she wants is for us to say, "What you're doing is okay" and for us to embrace it. Some have said, "You need to love her." We have been. What they mean is that we are supposed to accept her without question or comment or else it's condemnation or "unloving". That is such hypocritical crap. We have kept our kids away from her but nothing else has changed and yet we are still being accused of being hateful and judgemental. Are we such bad company that the absence of our kids in her life makes visits, calls, or notes from us a waste of her time???

As for people who say they aren't Christians or haven't indicated one way or the other, we treat them respectfully but we still limit our kids' contact with them. We do try to treat them with kindness. We would not have them babysit for us. While we don't doubt a person's ability to instruct our child in math or reading, "out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks" and we don't want them having an influence on our child. It's impossible to teach black and white and keep one's personal life out of things.

We would not seek to get someone fired from a school situation because our kids aren't in a school. If a person held a position in the church, more specifically our church, we would have something to say about that. We would not try to have Little League or soccer coaches fired but would remove our kids from those teams. Unless they were militant in their choices, we would try to do it in such a way as to not alienate the person or drag their name through the mud. The point is not that all communication with them should come to a screeching halt.

/ot [heart palpatations] Note to self - Write this down: LL reg. is next month already. I almost forgot!![/heart palpatations]

As our children are growing up, they're going to have to decide more and more for themselves how they relate to people in various situations. Hopefully they will have learned how to love and minister to people in ways that are pleasing to God.

[Patroclus]

Paul:

:huh: :smile:

"hypothetical" here is just a term that is sometimes used in philosophy. A hypothetical person is just a person who may or may not exist in actuality but of whom you speak about anyway -- just as you did with respect to your hypothetical children and just as I did with respect to my hypothetical children and hypothetical relatives and so forth.

Just a joke, though obviously not a very funny joke.

/me practices delivery

[Undomiel]

Esther,

The problem is degrees of latitude. For example, in this sentence of yours "a heterosexual engaging in heterosexual immorality", there are several holes. Let's start with the most obvious one - Divorce. Whether or not divorce is accepted as a norm in our culture does not matter under your particular approach to the subject of unrepentant sin. If the bible says divorce is wrong, and people (even christians (50% divorce rate among christians)) get divorced more often than not, you will find that under the restrictions you have set for unrepentant sin, that your children's circle of influence would be cut by at least 50% - this is true if the divorcee remarries for any reason other than adultery. And even moreso, if the divorce was the result of adultery and the adulterer remarries. A person so doing is commiting adultery even as we speak.

Now let's look at the sin of lust. To lust after someone with your eyes or mind, is the same as commiting adultery. So now we have massive amounts of people, who call themselves christians, who look at pornography or are watching TV and becoming sexually excited at the sight of a woman or man in a sexual situation or skimpy clothes. This is magnified at the beach, where there's a veritable smorgasboard of unclothed people, and where christians are just as likely to be found lounging in the sun as non-christians. So now the child's circle of influence is even smaller.

And here we have the sin of gluttony. Most americans are overweight. In fact, most of the western world is overweight, this includes christians. So now your child's circle of influence is even smaller. As we go along, the tighter the circle becomes, and the more obvious it becomes that unrepentant sin is not just contingent on what is socially acceptable AT THE MOMENT, but what the bible actually says. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, soon your child will have to stay locked in your house. And I don't mean this to qualify homosexuality or bisexuality, I mean this to point out that unrepentant sin is the same, no matter where you find it, no matter what its called, and no matter whether its socially acceptable or not.

[Rahab]

I will only sit and watch for now as Undomiel has shared the same type of thoughts I would have brought up to you Esther.

Too bad I cannot cyber feed you all the left overs of my Christmas cakes and sweets as neither hubby or I need to "pig out" anylonger on those!

[Paul]

Today @ 11:49 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356776#post356776)
Patroclus:



Just a joke, though obviously not a very funny joke.

* Patroclus practices delivery

I'm sure it was a funny joke Pat :smile: I'm just a little slow when it comes to getting jokes and I think I was a little tired at that moment so that made me even more slow :smile:

[Undomiel]

Today @ 08:37 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356800#post356800)
Rahab:

I will only sit and watch for now as Undomiel has shared the same type of thoughts I would have brought up to you Esther.

Too bad I cannot cyber feed you all the left overs of my Christmas cakes and sweets as neither hubby or I need to "pig out" anylonger on those!

lol Thanks. Anyway, look at the divorce rates! in the first 5 years of marriage 1 out of every 2 marriages ends in divorce! These people remarry! And when they do, they are commiting adultery unless they lost their previous partner to adultery. In which case, only the adulterous partner is committing adultery if they remarry (and causing the person they marry to commit adultery as well). Literally millions of people qualify for the New Testament version of "Adultery." MILLIONS. At that rate, we'd all have to cocoon ourselves in our homes to avoid the taint of adulterers. lol Sorry, I just can't see straining over a gnat and swallowing the empire state building!

[Addendum: And BILLIONS if you include the verse about lust that says to lust after someone other than your marriage partner is commiting adultery as well!]

[Rahab]

I sat on my hands for a while.....

To add also to your list the "closet sins". The ones we are aware we have but we hide in our closet to make sure we make a good impression on a nice christian family! Those are not sins that can be blatant or overt...... we hang on to them but dissimulate them.

I also was thinking that as parents we can influence children in sin.....have you ever seen your normaly sweet church attendee family turn into barbarian victory hungry loonies at their kid's football game? or some of us leaving a miserable tip on the table after the traditional after church Sunday family outing?
Come to think about it..... there is practicaly no situation where we can protect our children from sinful influence.

ESTHER : in no way do I intend to demean your desire to raise your children in a Godly way. I am admiring christian mothers who homeschool and are such wonderful nurturers.
The fact you will to promote in them a balanced approach of sin where you exhort them to treat sinners with love and kindness is IMO a positive testimony of the Character of Christ.

[Esther]

Undomiel:

Esther,

The problem is degrees of latitude. For example, in this sentence of yours "a heterosexual engaging in heterosexual immorality", there are several holes. Let's start with the most obvious one - Divorce. Whether or not divorce is accepted as a norm in our culture does not matter under your particular approach to the subject of unrepentant sin. If the bible says divorce is wrong, and people (even christians (50% divorce rate among christians)) get divorced more often than not, you will find that under the restrictions you have set for unrepentant sin, that your children's circle of influence would be cut by at least 50% - this is true if the divorcee remarries for any reason other than adultery. And even moreso, if the divorce was the result of adultery and the adulterer remarries. A person so doing is commiting adultery even as we speak.

Now let's look at the sin of lust. To lust after someone with your eyes or mind, is the same as commiting adultery. So now we have massive amounts of people, who call themselves christians, who look at pornography or are watching TV and becoming sexually excited at the sight of a woman or man in a sexual situation or skimpy clothes. This is magnified at the beach, where there's a veritable smorgasboard of unclothed people, and where christians are just as likely to be found lounging in the sun as non-christians. So now the child's circle of influence is even smaller.

And here we have the sin of gluttony. Most americans are overweight. In fact, most of the western world is overweight, this includes christians. So now your child's circle of influence is even smaller. As we go along, the tighter the circle becomes, and the more obvious it becomes that unrepentant sin is not just contingent on what is socially acceptable AT THE MOMENT, but what the bible actually says. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, soon your child will have to stay locked in your house. And I don't mean this to qualify homosexuality or bisexuality, I mean this to point out that unrepentant sin is the same, no matter where you find it, no matter what its called, and no matter whether its socially acceptable or not.

I have not said we totally isolate our kids from "sinners". The thread was dealing with homosexuality and I was merely putting a context to how we do things and showing that we try to be consistent in our actions.

Notice that I said

If the person is a self-proclaimed Christian, I would see to it that they had absolutely nothing to do with my kids because their lifestyle is opposed to scripture. When a person [the aforementioned person who calls himself a Christian] is involved in any type of blatent, unrepentant sin, I'm going to protect my kids from their influence, whether they're a practicing homosexual, a heterosexual engaging in heterosexual immorality, a gossip, or a thief, among other things. Yes, we do limit our kids' contact with people in situations like that.

but


As for people who say they aren't Christians or haven't indicated one way or the other, we treat them respectfully but we still limit our kids' contact with them. We do try to treat them with kindness. We would not have them babysit for us. While we don't doubt a person's ability to instruct our child in math or reading, "out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks" and we don't want them having an influence on our child. It's impossible to teach black and white and keep one's personal life out of things.

Regarding lust and divorce.

As for lust, I would say it's usually not evident to the average passerby. Unless a person is making lewd remarks or gawking inappropriately (hm ... is there appropriate gawking?), one may not know it's going on. We aren't instructed in scripture to label every person on the earth by their sins and run screaming from them. We are instructed to protect and guide our children until such time as they are ready to go out into the world and follow God's calling on their lives.

As for divorce, I would not presume to know what has gone on in a marriage situation and unless that person is proclaiming for all to hear that divorce is just fine and dandy or is trying to get into a position of leadership in the church (depends upon what their circumstances were), I would not involve myself in that person's business. A divorce situation is hard enough without me standing in judgement of the person.

The other thing about divorce is that it's not usually a lifestyle. I'm sure Elizabeth Taylor would say otherwise :wink: but for the average person, divorce is one act. It is one major, life-impacting act. How is that a lifestyle of sin? Imo, divorce, like abortion and a few other things done out of a sense of desparation and/or hopelessness, calls for compassion and support.

[Undomiel]

Today @ 10:05 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356845#post356845)
Esther:



I have not said we totally isolate our kids from "sinners". The thread was dealing with homosexuality and I was merely putting a context to how we do things and showing that we try to be consistent in our actions.

Notice that I said


but



Regarding lust and divorce.

As for lust, I would say it's usually not evident to the average passerby. Unless a person is making lewd remarks or gawking inappropriately (hm ... is there appropriate gawking?), one may not know it's going on. We aren't instructed in scripture to label every person on the earth by their sins and run screaming from them. We are instructed to protect and guide our children until such time as they are ready to go out into the world and follow God's calling on their lives.

As for divorce, I would not presume to know what has gone on in a marriage situation and unless that person is proclaiming for all to hear that divorce is just fine and dandy or is trying to get into a position of leadership in the church (depends upon what their circumstances were), I would not involve myself in that person's business. A divorce situation is hard enough without me standing in judgement of the person.

The other thing about divorce is that it's not usually a lifestyle. I'm sure Elizabeth Taylor would say otherwise :wink: but for the average person, divorce is one act. It is one major, life-impacting act. How is that a lifestyle of sin? Imo, divorce, like abortion and a few other things done out of a sense of desparation and/or hopelessness, calls for compassion and support.


Yes it does call for compassion and support. So how is it the homosexual or bisexual is less deserving of compassion or support than the adulterer or a glutton, for example? In addition, remember you were the one that said you don't allow your children to be influenced by any christians that have unrepented sin in their lives Do you realize how many christians have unrepented sin in their lives? That was my entire point. We are all works in progress. Just because christian A is engaging in more socially acceptable unrepented sin like gluttony, doesn't mean his/her sin is any less sinful in the sight of God than christian B who might be a struggling with a less socially acceptable unrepented sin. What I'm telling you is, if you want to consider yourself truly consistent with God's word where it touches on unrepented sin, then you better apply it across the board. You can't allow one person the sin of gluttony and condemn the next person for the sin of alcohol abuse. Sin is sin.

This is what many non-christians gripe about when it comes to the christian testimony. Although socially acceptable behavior is consistent with scripture, it isn't consistent with scripture if it goes against the word of God. So either the divorcee, who divorced her husband because they couldn't get along and married another man, and who is teaching your kid's sunday school class, is an adulterer or not (according to scripture she would be). Your willingness to accept the sin in that person's life is based on social norms, not God's word. Your unwillingness to accept the sin in a homosexual's life is equally based on social norms. Is either consistent with scripture? In both cases, they are engaged in unrepentent sin, but you've allowed one to be in contact with your children and the other, you would avoid like the plague because it's a social norm to do so. In neither case are you being consistent with your own application of scripture - that being the insistence to only allow your children or your family to be in contact with people who don't have unrepentent sin in their lives, including your own relatives. That's very sad, Esther.

[Undomiel]

Oh and on the subject of a bisexual female relative not being allowed around your children, I'd just like to mention a cute little story about Rosie O'Donnell (the tv/movie star). Her sister has kids, who Rosie loves dearly. One Christmas Rosie went to visit her sister and took them to Toys R' Us. Rosie said one of her little nieces wanted a toy that her mother refused to buy her. So she turned to her Aunt Rosie and said, "Aunt Rosie, you are my most favoritist Aunt in the whole wide world!" And Rosie said, "WRAP IT UP!" To the saleslady. hehehe. Aunt Rosie may be bisexual but she loves her family and doesn't want to deprive them of what their hearts desire. I think that's very sweet, and very much like what a loving Aunt would do, bisexual or not. Why deprive your kids or your sister of the opportunity to display God's love to your family, because essentially, that's what she would be doing if she shared with them at Christmas or on their birthdays, etc. Nowhere in the bible does it say only christians or fully repentent christians are capable of displaying God's love, which is one of the most important commandments.

If I speak with the tongues of men, have all knowledge, all faith, and yet don't have love, I have become as a sounding brass or tinkling cymbal. Faith, hope and love, but the greatest among these is love. Love conquers all.

[Esther]

Undomiel:

Oh and on the subject of a bisexual female relative not being allowed around your children, I'd just like to mention a cute little story about Rosie O'Donnell (the tv/movie star). Her sister has kids, who Rosie loves dearly. One Christmas Rosie went to visit her sister and took them to Toys R' Us. Rosie said one of her little nieces wanted a toy that her mother refused to buy her. So she turned to her Aunt Rosie and said, "Aunt Rosie, you are most favoritist Aunt in the whole wide world!" And Rosie said, "WRAP IT UP!" To the saleslady. hehehe. Aunt Rosie may be bisexual but she loves her family and doesn't want to deprive them of what their heart's desire. I think that's very sweet, and very much like what a loving Aunt would do, bisexual or not. Why deprive your kids or your sister of the opportunity to display God's love to your family, because essentially, that's what she would be doing if she shared with them at Christmas or on their birthdays, etc. Nowhere in the bible does it say only christians or fully repentent christians are capable of displaying God's love, which is one of the most important commandments.

If I speak with the tongues of men, have all knowledge, all faith, and yet don't have love, I have become as a sounding brass or tinkling cymbal. Faith, hope and love, but the greatest among these is love. Love conquers all.

Who said anything about a bisexual female relative?

You know that story about Rosie buying the toy really grinds me. She has just undermined the authority of her sister in the eyes of her children. "If mom won't let us have what we want, just ask aunt rosie." What a wonderful legacy! There are sometimes reasons why parents don't want their kids to have certain toys. Sometimes it's just a matter of prinicpal: "I said so. Honor that."

Frankly, Undomiel, you have absolutely no idea what the situation is with my relative. You obviously have missed everything I've said in my posts about showing love to this person. Thank you so very much for dumping salt in an already festering wound. You have no idea how deeply painful this situation is and, no matter what I do for her, how much this person, my beloved sister ... my one and only sister, hates my guts and never wants to see me again. That sometimes happens, you know; showing love to someone and yet holding your ground. People hate you for it, as is obvious from your previous post. Our decision to keep our kids away from her was not a flip, spur of the moment decision and it was definitely not easy. I sincerely hope you never experience this.

[Undomiel]

Today @ 02:03 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=356976#post356976)
Esther:



Who said anything about a bisexual female relative?

You know that story about Rosie buying the toy really grinds me. She has just undermined the authority of her sister in the eyes of her children. "If mom won't let us have what we want, just ask aunt rosie." What a wonderful legacy! There are sometimes reasons why parents don't want their kids to have certain toys. Sometimes it's just a matter of prinicpal: "I said so. Honor that."

Frankly, Undomiel, you have absolutely no idea what the situation is with my relative. You obviously have missed everything I've said in my posts about showing love to this person. Thank you so very much for dumping salt in an already festering wound. You have no idea how deeply painful this situation is and, no matter what I do for her, how much this person, my beloved sister ... my one and only sister, hates my guts and never wants to see me again. That sometimes happens, you know; showing love to someone and yet holding your ground. People hate you for it, as is obvious from your previous post. Our decision to keep our kids away from her was not a flip, spur of the moment decision and it was definitely not easy. I sincerely hope you never experience this.


Actually I have experienced the opposite. I've been on the receiving end of being looked upon as a bad influence because of unrepented sin. But unrepented sin is universal. We all have it to one degree or another, and usually in ways we like not to think about. Denial of our own shortcomings comes in handy when we are ready to dish out the just desserts to a friend, family member or member of society who's sins are not to our liking. Sadly, they are usually measured based on our own preconceived notions of what is and isn't socially acceptable, rather than what is and isn't acceptable to God. Even then, we are encouraged to refrain from passing judgement on the unrepentent, and to work with them, rather than against them. In fact, denying our own unrepentent state is the only way we can feasibly dish out the dirt to some unsuspecting sot, who's only real problem is they were born human and now have to contend with that humanity in the sight of a loving but perfect God and the rest of creation, literally.

I apologize for upsetting you. Your position though, is fraught with difficulty. It's only tenable if you are yourself free of sin, which I'm sorry to tell you, will never be true as long as you are in the flesh. You are forgiven, yes, but you are still in an unrepentent state of some variety, at some level. You've just learned to reach a level of repentance you are comfortable with, and expect others to reach that level as well. But don't we all grow at different rates and in different areas? You might excel in the matters of God and repentence where your sister doesn't. She might excel where you don't.

[Undomiel]

Or are you saying she's so horrible, there's no redeeming value in her life that's worthy of her presence in your life and the lives of your children? Is there nothing you or your kids could learn from her? Is she just wasted space? Is anyone THAT bad? I certainly don't hate you, Esther. I'm sharing my understanding of this situation with you because I've been there, where your sister is right now, and it's a perspective that perhaps you've not been able to share with her because of your current communication problems. I don't believe you have to accept her sins any more than you have to accept your own, merely that you should not isolate her because of them, but rather work with her on them as you would with your own kids or your own husband or another family member that you've not isolated. She's your sis, afterall. Who knows, she might have something of value for you as well. ???

If you want to yell at me, feel free to do so. I'm not perfect either.

[Rahab]

Bonjour all.....
The more I read those exchanges between Esther and Undomiel, the more I can see that often the separation and division between beloved family members may have a lot to do with our desire to control their existence. The moment we express in any form " I disagree with your lifestyle or your habit or your addiction or whichever area we encounter" we are placing them ON THE DEFENSIVE. We also place conditions to their validation as human beings. And one of the greatest needs of human beings is to feel appreciated.

The Bible tells us to be a "peculiar people ".... we are defined as "sanctified " (set apart) and it appears that if one wills to live according to those principles, one will experience the grief of the parting from the beloved family member or friend who is not a "peculiar" individual.....
This is the dilemna for every christian..... do I sacrifice family and friends to uphold what is Biblicaly dear to me or do I set aside what is Biblicaly dear to me to pursue a relationship with those individuals with the hope that my silent witness thru the way I live my life and treat others will lead them to seek a similar behavior? how do we examplify the character of Christ without burning precious bridges?

I was also thinking of how Christ delt with the adversarial responses from the Pharisees who willed to control human behavior by the law. He kept demonstrating what it is we need to do as we deal with others.... over and over again. Where they cast out lepers as unpure, He touched them and healed them. Where they exhorted the stoning of adulterers, He demonstrate how His intervention and interaction with an adulteress is what TRANSFORMS her and makes her a sinner who will avoid sin.....
The message is clear to me........ our witness on how we interact with other sinners may be God's tool to transform them. And not by the Pharisee way..... they failed to have any spiritual impact on the masses of believers.

This is not a critical stance on what you shared Esther..... this is what I believe to be an efficient witness and that we must keep ourselves from burning bridges by suggesting other sinners that unless they are conformed to whom we are, they are not accepted.

[gooner]

[i]



You know that story about Rosie buying the toy really grinds me. She has just undermined the authority of her sister in the eyes of her children. "If mom won't let us have what we want, just ask aunt rosie." What a wonderful legacy! There are sometimes reasons why parents don't want their kids to have certain toys. Sometimes it's just a matter of prinicpal: "I said so. Honor that."

.

yes me too Esther.Having just recovered from Xmas and an excess of unnecessary presents which fill an emotional gap for our unsaved relatives who refuse the Gospel but actually undermine our position as parents....not to mention turning our kids into spoilt brats for the week.......we need the Aunt Rosie's of this world like a hole in the head.

Anyway coming in on this late I wanted to add my 2 cents.I work as a sports coach;(in the UK)I have a small limited company delivering our (soccer and invasion games)prog to primary school children and we do some out of school activity as well.
I believe the account of God's judgement on Sodom shows that the sin of Sodomy was a PARTICUALLY wicked sin ....I mean in the same sense that child sacrifice(Molech worship) was also PARTICUALLY wicked.I do not think that the fact that we all struggle with sin to a degree is actually relevant here.If I knew a Christian who was struggling with homosexuality but was nnetherless bringing the issue to the Lord and to his brothers in prayer I would want to support that brother in every way possible.I myself struggle through issue's of lust and outbursts of anger.....all of us are a work in progress...it is important that we submit one to another.So there is nothing that is impossible WITH God including homosexual inclinations.But Romans 1 tells us that Homosexuality is against nature;if someone is acting contrary to God and nature my attitude is one of FEAR of the Lord.i.e.I would not employ a homosexual in my company no matter how skilled or qualified they were to do the technical aspects of the job because the Bible says they have an inclination ( that is ....beyond even the bounds of the sinful nature)contrary to God and to nature.Also working in a business where one is always aware of the dark cloud of possible litigation from disgruntled parents and the almost paronoid obsession with child protection that has grown and grown over the last 10 years I would be in a permanent state of anxiety.
The homosexual lobby is of course constantly wanting to adjust definitions.When I was a child,gay meant happy....no child today where I live understands gay as meaning happy and indeed what on earth is gay about sodomy.

[elysian]

I think it is necessary to have open communication with our kids- because in this way we help them build the defenses they need in their lives.

When my son was very little (from the time he was 2 1/2 until he was 8) we lived in a community within the Columbus inner city that has a high gay population (about 20%.) It is typical in that neighborhood to see gays (two males or two females) holding hands or kissing in public, just as straight couples do. We even had a gay couple living in the apartment next to ours for awhile.

When my son was in first grade, he saw the couple next door walking through the courtyard with their hands in each others' back pockets. He asked me, "Mom, which one is the girl?" Talk about "squirm factor!" So I told him the truth quietly, "They are both guys." Which to my horror, my son calls out "FAGGOTS!" I hope they didn't hear him. I tried to explain to him that some men choose to live with other men, and some women choose to live with other women. To which he replied, "That's not normal." I told him that not everyone is "normal," but that in this country two guys can choose to live together or two girls can choose to live together. The look he gave me would have peeled paint.

But would I object if my son had homosexual teachers- probably not. I did- two that I now know for sure are homosexual because they "came out of the closet" several years ago. One was a gifted music teacher, the other taught history. Both were men- and neither admitted to being homosexual until after they retired from the school system. Neither had any accusations against them of improper behavior with children. I can't say that for the (heterosexual) wrestling coach, who was fired when it was discovered he had gotten one of the cheerleaders pregnant and was carrying on with several other female students at the high school I graduated from.

I would probably be more disturbed at a phys-ed teacher or coach who is gay and I would question that particular area of teaching.

But over all, my son (he's 12) knows what gay is, knows what inappropriate touching is, and would have no problem at blowing the whistle on anyone who tried to molest him. There is no doubt in my mind he's straight (he is very interested in girls) so I am not particularly worried about him "going to the dark side" in that regard. He is also aware of the Biblical view on sexuality including homosexuality and premarital sex.

[emulator]

i stopped being friends with a compadre of mine (an older guy) when i found out that he was a predator, i already knew he was gay and that didn't bother me much.
if my children know that the teacher is gay i dont want that teacher to have any further contact with that teacher...i dont go around making it public knowledge that i am hetero...i see no reason why my children should be programmed to think homosexuality is normal and ok...homosexuals should be culturally adept enough to know that teaching children sexual morals is ... um whack. in the same brath i will acquiesce to the fact that many parents fail to teach their children the things they ought to about reproduction, i dont believe that schools should be teaching them such things, but alas God has been removed from schools and unfortunately many christians fail to see the great importance of teaching their own kids (anything let alone subjects that have been deemed taboo by far to many {religious} leaders)

[elysian]

I would rather have my son learn about sensitive topics from me but not just from me.

He knows what he needs to know about homosexuality- that some people practice it and that they are human beings. No matter what we might think of a person's sexual practices we are still to treat them with dignity. He also knows that homosexual practices are not "normal" or an "alternative lifestyle" but that such practices are contrary to nature and abominable to God.

He also knows what he needs to know about heterosexual sex- that it is a gift of God, but a gift with boundaries: the most important of those boundaries being that it is reserved only for married couples- the "two becoming one flesh." Heterosexual sex outside of marriage is sinful not because sex is bad but because it has been taken outside of its protective boundaries.

I don't object to sex ed in school because they do a good job of teaching the "mechanics" and the biological facts about sex. He needs to know the facts, not his friends' conjecture. His school in particular does a good job with emphasizing the implications of irresponsible premarital sex, which I take further in teaching how all those terrible things can be avoided 100% of the time by following God's plan for sex which is within faithful, monogamous marriage.

I think that by getting the facts about sex out in the open kids are made more likely to see it for what it is: a powerful gift that has a proper time and place.

I also agree that a kid shouldn't really be able to tell if a teacher is straight or gay. One of the teachers I had who later "came out of the closet" was extremely effeminate and was never married which caused many students to speculate he was gay. The other though, had gotten married and had even had kids when I guess something "clicked" and he decided or discovered he was gay. I do agree there should never be any type of inappropriate relationships going on between teachers and students- gay OR straight!