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STR Ambassador
December 28th 2003, 05:06 PM
The Real Issue of Scopes

I was reading an article someone sent me from the Orange County Register, July 27, 1994. The title is "Teach Science as Science: A Teacher's Lawsuit Revisits the Scopes Trial." It refers to the case of John Peloza who has allegedly insisted on his right to teach creationism to biology students in the Capistrano Valley Unified School District.

Let me read you the closing half of the editorial piece, and then I'd like to respond.

Of course, groups pushing narrow religious agendas will always have their occasional successes with pliable legislatures. But the Peloza case is especially disturbing because it arises from within the very heart of a school system. Here is a public school science teacher, now reassigned to teach health and physical education, who has rejected the premise of scientific method. The theory of natural selection is not, after all, merely one wild card idea among others competing for acceptance. It is not just a theory, but a body of ideas that have been thoroughly confirmed, derived from solid techniques of scientific inquiry. That process should be held up as a model for learning. Young people need to know that the truths we derive about the physical universe must come from reason and scientific experimentation, not dogma. Science cannot be regarded as one possible methodology for determining how things came to be alongside whatever the flat earth society or anybody else might postulate. At a time when religious zealots are conducting stealth campaigns to take over school boards, this challenge from someone on the front lines in the classroom should be resolved with a ringing affirmation from the courts. Educators have a right and a duty to teach science as science.

I suspect--and I'm not thoroughly up on this situation--that this is a misrepresentation of the facts. My recollection is not that Peloza wanted to teach creation, but that he wanted to critique evolution according to the official guidelines listed in the California educational manual. Even so, that's not really consequential for my remarks today. As I've often said, the ideas are more important than the details. The basic issue is that this piece says some strong things about the creation/evolution controversy in the educational system.

There were so many things said here that deserve response, I could take an hour talking about it. I'm just going to highlight a couple of things. As is frequently the case when newspaper editorials respond to this issue of evolution and creation, not only do they misrepresent the so-called religious side--which I think was done here, and I'll try to correct that--but they misunderstand the nature of the scientific issues.

Regarding the religious implications of the fight against evolution, clearly this issue does have religious implications, but that blade cuts both ways. If Carl Sagan is right, then "the cosmos is all there is, all there was, and all there ever will be." That has profound implications for metaphysics, for religion. And his comment, accepted by many as science, is no less religious in its implications than Peloza's viewpoint. Religion and science cannot be kept apart, because dogmatic assertions about scientific matters often have metaphysical implications. Note Sagan's remark as an example.

Anyone, by the way, who looks closely at the details of this debate on a more sophisticated level--a level that the media consistently avoids in their coverage--will discover that the questions raised about evolution pertain to the alleged scientific facts themselves and the interpretation of those facts.

This is another misrepresentation in this article. The objections raised by people like Peloza, are objections that pertain first and foremost to science and not to religion. The objections I raise to evolution are scientific ones, not religious ones. Those in the philosophy of science and those who are scientists who object to evolution do not object on religious grounds, principally. They are objecting precisely on scientific grounds.

Now, what about the theory of natural selection? The editorial says, "The theory of natural selection is not, after all, merely one wild card idea among others competing for acceptance. It is not just a theory, but a body of ideas that have been thoroughly confirmed." Even if the statement were correct, that natural selection has been proven, so what? That doesn't take us anywhere at all in this discussion, and I'll tell you why.

(Keep in mind, by the way, that my remarks right now
have to do with the nature of the debate itself, not the content of the debate. I'm not here arguing in favor of creationism per se, or in favor of some kind of design. I'm just talking about this objection to Christians--or anyone who believes in some kind of design alternative to the origins question--wanting to be players in the scientific discussion on origins. The Register is saying that's not a legitimate alternative because science teachers should teach science as science, science is equal with evolution, and you can't bring any of these other "religious" issues into the discussion.)

I think the argument in this sense is miscast: any proof of the theory of natural selection is nearly irrelevant to this particular discussion. The theory of natural selection is not in itself at issue. The idea that only the fittest survive in the struggle for existence may be true. Even if I accept that, this is an utterly unremarkable observation that's not a point of contention in this conflict of ideas. If this observation were the only thing in question, few would lift an eyebrow.

The earthshaking suggestion by Darwin was not that the fit survive, but rather how much this observation explains about the physical world. The offense of Darwinism isn't natural selection per se. Rather, the offense is that purely naturalistic processes--with natural selection as the mechanism--can alone explain everything--not just minor adaptive variations, but the totality of the biosphere and all its complexity and diversity, even the mystery of life itself.

In fact, so stupendous is the creative power of natural selection that it frequently is referred to somewhat oxymoronically as the "miracle of Mother Nature." It's an oxymoron because there is a contradiction there. Mother Nature doesn't have miracles; she's purely naturalistic. But that's what's objectionable, not natural selection itself, but the radical extrapolation of the mechanism to make it capable of explaining everything. Even then the question isn't principally "Is it offensive to religious people?" The real questions is: Is this extrapolation a legitimate scientific inference from the facts, or a leap of faith itself?

Let me underscore that the issue here is not religious dogma. The issue is science, in my view, and in the view of those creationists who are, as I mentioned, discussing this issue on a more sophisticated level. Educators like Peloza aren't the only ones that are concerned here. In fact, the best material currently critiquing evolution is not coming from religious people, but from inside the scientific community.

Following the complete failure in the late 80's of the Origin of Life Conference in Berkeley to produce a plausible scenario for how life itself chemically evolved, Dr. Robert Shapiro, the eminent chemist from New York University and an expert in his field, wrote a book entitled Origins: A Skeptic's Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth. ("Creation" here refers to biochemical evolution.) Shapiro is an educated skeptic. In his book, he decimates the reigning ideas of how life could have evolved from non-life.

Michael Denton, in his book Evolution a Theory in Crisis, shows that the original scientific objections to evolution that faced Darwin and were argued powerfully by his contemporaries still apply--even after more than 100 years of scientific research and progress.

Both of these books were written by non-religious people. They were not raising religious objections at all. Their concerns are strictly scientific.

Shapiro remains an evolutionist, hoping that the future will turn up more evidence for biochemical evolution that the past has been unable to produce. Michael Denton ends his analysis with this statement: "The Darwinian theory is the great cosmogenic myth of the twentieth century," and then adds, "like the Genesis-based cosmology which it replaced." You have no friends of religion here, yet in both cases each offers scientifically strident and compelling arguments against the plausibility of natural processes explaining all of the complexity that we see in our biological world. It's just not plausible, they argue. These men are inside scientific community, not the outside.

it is true that evolution is accepted by many scientists, but not all. Whether it's accepted because of scientific evidence or for other more philosophical reasons--which Peloza calls "evolutionary religion"--is precisely what this debate is about. To cast this debate the light of "religious zealots conducting stealth campaigns," as the editorial does, mischaracterizes it.

This spin on the debate skirts the issue entirely. It is easier to dismiss as flat-earth religion any objections to evolution rather than to engage the issues themselves in public discourse. Some people say, "Well, I don't want to dignify the opposition by even engaging in reasonable discourse, as if this is something that could be discussed reasonably."

It's much easier to simply dismiss objections by calling names. "Oh you flat-earth people, you're ignorant. What do you know? I don't even want to talk to you." But once they do that, they push the other side out of the game by dogmatically refusing even to consider the options, or at least consider a critique of their own view. That's not education.

The Orange County Register editorial suggests that when the challenge comes on the front lines in the classroom, "it should be resolved with a ringing affirmation from the courts." That's right, call out the militia. That's how to resolve this. That will solve the problem. You can assure victory this way. Win the game by using the men in black robes to run the other team off the field.

It seems to me that the challenges in the classroom, since they are challenges that are scientific--that's what the real challenge is, that's the beef, not religious dogma, science--the challenges in the classroom should not be solved in the courtroom because, after all, courts don't determine what is true. They only determine what is legal. Classrooms, however, are supposedly the arena where truth can be discovered. Maybe knowledge and truth would be better served by an even-handed analysis of the facts in an open debate with full disclosure rather than by strong-arm tactics deciding which ideas get to play in the game.

This editorial cites the first Scopes trial. But wasn't that precisely what the trial was all about, not having the law bar a free and informed interplay of ideas? Let's have a free play of ideas, and let's let the best idea win on its own merit. That's the real lesson of Scopes.

chickenman
December 29th 2003, 03:38 AM
This is another misrepresentation in this article. The objections raised by people like Peloza, are objections that pertain first and foremost to science and not to religion. The objections I raise to evolution are scientific ones, not religious ones. Those in the philosophy of science and those who are scientists who object to evolution do not object on religious grounds, principally. They are objecting precisely on scientific grounds.

No, for the most part they aren't - because their science always has to check first with their religious text - this isn't part of the scientific method

Shapiro remains an evolutionist, hoping that the future will turn up more evidence for biochemical evolution that the past has been unable to produce. Michael Denton ends his analysis with this statement: "The Darwinian theory is the great cosmogenic myth of the twentieth century," and then adds, "like the Genesis-based cosmology which it replaced." You have no friends of religion here, yet in both cases each offers scientifically strident and compelling arguments against the plausibility of natural processes explaining all of the complexity that we see in our biological world. It's just not plausible, they argue. These men are inside scientific community, not the outside.

denton is now an "evolutionist"
and shapiro remains one

It seems to me that the challenges in the classroom, since they are challenges that are scientific--that's what the real challenge is, that's the beef, not religious dogma, science--the challenges in the classroom should not be solved in the courtroom because, after all, courts don't determine what is true. They only determine what is legal. Classrooms, however, are supposedly the arena where truth can be discovered. Maybe knowledge and truth would be better served by an even-handed analysis of the facts in an open debate with full disclosure rather than by strong-arm tactics deciding which ideas get to play in the game.
its inconvenient to teach every model or hypothesis proposed, because there isn't enough time in the school year to cover the invisible gravity pixies theory - so we teach the one that scientific consensus deems the best explanation

the interplay of ideas happens in the scientific community, and because the IDists and YECists are vastly outnumbered, they'd like to propose their ideas to those who aren't equipped with the tertiary level training and knowledge to sort out their merits

If the scientific curriculum was decided by the consensus of the worlds scientists, YECism and IDism would have no place

so these elements try political lobbying to get their ideas taught

Thats not on, in my opinion. If you can't convince your peers of the merit of your science, then you shouldn't be allowed to teach your science to children

Socrates
December 29th 2003, 11:05 PM
Yesterday @ 05:38 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=357124#post357124)
chickenman:

No, for the most part they aren't - because their science always has to check first with their religious text - this isn't part of the scientific method

While Chickie and his ilk are equally committed to materialism.

and shapiro remains one [an evolutionist]

By faith! This is abundantly clear in his writings. Shapiro wrote a very good paper about the implausibility of getting the essential DNA/RNA base cytosine from a primordial soup, but affirmed his faith in chemical evolution regardless -- see Origin of life: Instability of building blocks (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4148.asp).

its inconvenient to teach every model or hypothesis proposed, because there isn't enough time in the school year to cover the invisible gravity pixies theory - so we teach the one that scientific consensus deems the best explanation

And once again, Chicky conflates an issue of operational science with one about origins.

the interplay of ideas happens in the scientific community, and because the IDists and YECists are vastly outnumbered, they'd like to propose their ideas to those who aren't equipped with the tertiary level training and knowledge to sort out their merits

IOW, "Trust us, the elite, to know how to program your children about origins." Chicky would have done well in the Soviet Union, where "big brother knows best".

If the scientific curriculum was decided by the consensus of the worlds scientists, YECism and IDism would have no place

And neither would Galileo or Semmelweis. Of course, the likes of Chicky and others who advocate scientific censorship of challenges to materialism will tell the public out the other side of their mouths that science is about evidence not authority :poke:

so these elements try political lobbying to get their ideas taught

Rather, they wish to distinguish genuine science from materialistic philosophy piggybacking on top of it. In any case, I'm not interested in lobbying for what goes on in public school classrooms. Rather, I advocate home education instead, so parents can properly educate their kids in the biblical framework and explain the flaws in the establishment materialistic paradigm.

Thats not on, in my opinion. If you can't convince your peers of the merit of your science, then you shouldn't be allowed to teach your science to children

Which peers? Oh of course, only the materialistic ones count!

Also relevant to the IP title is my post Inherit the Wind is a thoroughly mendacious distortion of the Scopes Trial (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?action=showthread&postid=313816#post313816).

dizzle
December 29th 2003, 11:11 PM
This area of the forum is more heavily moderated and the decorum are much strict than the general forum as Stand to Reason is a guest of our forum, with this area being their domain, with a specific focus. Please refrain from using dimuninuitive forms of names in this section and anything which may cause the conversation to become disruptive or off the track of the focus introduced by the article submitted by STR.

chickenman
December 30th 2003, 02:15 AM
While Chickie and his ilk are equally committed to materialism.

methodological naturalism, which you now want to restrict to "operational" science, a distinction you invented to avoid the results of methodological naturalism when applied to biology

By faith! This is abundantly clear in his writings. Shapiro wrote a very good paper about the implausibility of getting the essential DNA/RNA base cytosine from a primordial soup, but affirmed his faith in chemical evolution regardless -- see Origin of life: Instability of building blocks.
pot to kettle: you are black

And once again, Chicky conflates an issue of operational science with one about origins.
the only reason you invented the difference is because you're unhappy with the results that "operational" science produced when it investigated biology

I see no reason to invent an entirely new methodology simply because the results aren't going the YECs way

IOW, "Trust us, the elite, to know how to program your children about origins." Chicky would have done well in the Soviet Union, where "big brother knows best".
you're the ones in opposition to the vast majority of educated scientists, who want to teach a fringe theory with little scientific support

my hypocrisy meter is off the scale here

And neither would Galileo or Semmelweis. Of course, the likes of Chicky and others who advocate scientific censorship of challenges to materialism will tell the public out the other side of their mouths that science is about evidence not authority
have you forgotten that the scientific community accepted galileos views, and that it had nothing to do with what was being taught to children

if your science has any merit, then i'm sure it will eventually prevail, like galileo's theories

Rather, they wish to distinguish genuine science from materialistic philosophy piggybacking on top of it. In any case, I'm not interested in lobbying for what goes on in public school classrooms. Rather, I advocate home education instead, so parents can properly educate their kids in the biblical framework and explain the flaws in the establishment materialistic paradigm.

with the help of AIG course material TM
proudly developed by the few remaining YEC scientists on the face of the earth
Guaranteed to produce disillusionment if your children ever pursue science at university

Which peers? Oh of course, only the materialistic ones count!

if your science has any merit, then it should be no problem to convince other scientists of its accuracy

I certainly don't think being able to convince those few who already have an unshakeable commitment to specific theory, a theory for which facts and data are largely irrelevant, in that they have no bearing whatsoever on the theory

dizzle
December 30th 2003, 05:44 AM
Again I request.... Chickenmand and Socrates you have ongoing debates in other sections that seemed to have spilled down over here. This area is to have discussions led by the issue raised by the STR article and not carry on personal battles. Let's please refocus, thanks.

Socrates
December 30th 2003, 06:36 AM
Today @ 04:15 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=357928#post357928)
chickenman:

methodological naturalism, which you now want to restrict to "operational" science, a distinction you invented to avoid the results of methodological naturalism when applied to biology

You flatter me -- this distinction goes back to at least Sir Isaac Newton, even if he didn't use those terms. It's childishly simple really -- operational science is based on repeatable observations in the present; origins or historical science is based on inferences and analogies.

pot to kettle: you are black

And you're about as guilty of potty melanism as anyone here!

the only reason you invented the difference is because you're unhappy with the results that "operational" science produced when it investigated biology

What nonsense. The whole point is that what happened in the past is neither observable nor repeatable, while we can test the law of gravity all the time. And the design perspective has led to many insights, including the research into the bacterial flagellum by one of the world's leading experts on it, Dr Scott Minnich.

have you forgotten that the scientific community accepted galileos views, and that it had nothing to do with what was being taught to children

Chicky has forgotten that the main opposition came from the establishment scientists, committed to Aristotelian philosophy and Ptolemaic cosmology.

if your science has any merit, then i'm sure it will eventually prevail, like galileo's theories

And it will. That's probably why the materialistic establishment resort to suppression.

with the help of AIG course material TM
proudly developed by the few remaining YEC scientists on the face of the earth
Of course! Chicky would probably prefer textbooks with Haeckel's forged embryo drawings :bonk:

Guaranteed to produce disillusionment if your children ever pursue science at university

I pursued science at a far higher level than Chicky and there was no disillusionment whatever. That is, except in any vestiges of evolutionary credibility when my biology courses taught embryonic recapitulation.

Also, it's churches that compromise with evolutionism and uniformitarian that have the greatest dropout rates from kids who go to university. That's undoubtedly why Chicky welcomes compromise.

And of course, the vast majority of science courses have no mention of evolution, e.g. physics and chemistry.

if your science has any merit, then it should be no problem to convince other scientists of its accuracy

Not if they are committed to an atheistic paradigm, as Chicky is.

I certainly don't think being able to convince those few who already have an unshakeable commitment to specific theory, a theory for which facts and data are largely irrelevant, in that they have no bearing whatsoever on the theory

Describes evolutionists perfectly! They have an unshakable commitment to materialism as Lewontin admitted :punch:

dizzle
December 30th 2003, 06:50 AM
Any further disregard of my instruction will cause posts to be edited entirely.

Barron
January 2nd 2004, 05:22 PM
StR,

A couple points (that I hope lead sedate discussions). (I'll use the term "you" to reply to the author and the poster, but I'm not sure those are the same. If you want you can consider "you" to apply to the ministry.)

You state that the issue is one of science and that there are valid scientific criticisms of evolution, but the only potential ones you cite are one of abiogenesis (which mostly points out that it's a very challenging field" and a reference to a pretty well discredited book. As I've stated in the previous thread on "philosophy of evolution" abiogenesis has little effect on evolutionary theory. Think, for example, that we currently lack a compelling model of abiogenesis and yet evolutionary theory goes along just fine. If the abiogenesis event(s) is never satifactorily explained it will not change how evolutionary science is done. Even if the event was (somehow) determined to be supernatural evolutionary science would continue as it had before. Thus the difficulties of abiogenesis research cannot be used as scientific objections to evolution.

A more important question is missed here, is high school science class really the place to discuss these issues? Many of the issues pertain to points in the philosophy of science, which I happen to really find fascinating, but I think it's asking way too much to expect the same of high school students (or even most teachers). Personally I love to see a complete semester course on the philosophy, history and methods of science as a requirement in high school, but that's clearly a pipe dream. High school is best meant as a grounding in topics, not a discussion of active debates in them.

But we do want to teach "the best science", of course. The issue is who decides what the "best science" is? I would say people working in those sciences are probably the best choice. Not individuals (who can always be cranks), but the broad, professional organizations that serve those field. And the consensus of these groups is with conventional evolutionary science (in the form of the Modern Synthesis) is the best current science (just as the Standard Model is the best current in particle physics). The "other side" seems to think that this is fine for everything except evolution. At this point I think it's fair to guess there may be some aggenda other than 'the best science" at work.

I should add, since I was thinking about this the other day, that it would be equally objectionable for a teacher to say that evolution disproves God as it would be to teach "creation science" (whether in its literal form or the "look at all the problems evolution has" form). Science does not and cannot rule out God. Science may only be able to deal with the natural universe, but that doesn't mean that's all there is. Sagan is extrapolating from the method to the metaphysics. While I may agree with his conclusion, that is not a conclusion of science. I recognize that and I don't claim otherwise. The danger comes when theists say (and believe) that if evolution is correct then God doesn't exist. Again, this is not a conclusion of science, but of theists.

Barron