any egalatarians here at Tweb?

[Gavin]

just curious.

[Jaltus]

See this thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1584).

[dizzle]

Not me.

[ItalianGold]

The longer I hang here the more I realize things have changed. When I was young, egalitarianism for an American was certainly the goal if not always the fact. Now I suppose you mean something else entirely. Something which does NOT mean "equality for all", especially with regard to social, ethnic status, etc.

I was also always taught that Christ was our model for equality of all God's children.

Please enlighten me.

[Jaltus]

Egalitarian means that women and men are totally the same with no variation within the church.

Hence, women can head households and can be pastors, both of which complimentarians deny, since they believe the sexes complement each other, holding to ontological and spiritual equality but differing roles.

[yxboom]

I am an egalitarian as long as women submit to the authority of men.

[Wesley's son]

Present :smile:

Here is a defense of women in ministry written by Catherine Booth (co-founder of the Salvation Army) for anyone to check out until I have time to write a personal response...although I think her defense is better than one I could construct anyway.

http://www.cresourcei.org/cbooth.html

[Solly]

Men and women are equal.
























It's just that men are more equal.

[AcousticJS]

i'm a complementarian - I believe that men and women are equal in value, but different in role.

God bless
Jon

[Freak]

This isssue has everything to do with roles not about the issue of equality-for man & women are equal before God.

[Gavin]

Hey, Paul said it, not me.:deal:

I Timothy 2
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

I Corinthians 14
34As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

[Gavin]

I am an egalitarian as long as women submit to the authority of men.
Isn't that like saying, "I am a Calvinist as long as God does not predestine salvation to people"?

(At least according to the definition Jaltus gave.)

[Gavin]

This isssue has everything to do with roles not about the issue of equality-for man & women are equal before God.
Once again I find myself agreeing with Freak.

[ItalianGold]

I see. Thank you for clearing that up for me. I'm just not used to all these buzz words. But, I must admit it follows the current trend in political and psychological speak-ese. Sort of like...when the kids misbehave they must be "consequenced." If you feel that women and men are equal in worth - that doesn't mean you're egalitarian. If you believe that the sexes are inately, biologically, psychologically and emotionally different (does anyone argue that point anymore?) AND are equal in worth except within the church where men should hold the dominant positions...then you are a complimentarian.

Got it!

No, wait! That's not only within church defined roles. There are other equal-in-quality but "complimentarian" roles for women in marriage, workplace, community, etc. right?

How does that work exactly when there are such high divorce rates? Does the church contend that women are to be allowed to remain at home with children and be fully supported by the father? Or in the inner city black culture where without a matriarchal society there would BE no family? Does the church make sure that these women and children are cared for in ways that are "complimentary" to their God assigned roles as help-mates instead of heads of household? And whatever do you tell your little girls who say they want to devote their lives to a career in politics in order to serve humanity? Are they gently guilded toward marriage and motherhood instead?

Just curious...

[Freak]

03-07-2003 @ 11:04 PM
Gavin:


Once again I find myself agreeing with Freak.

What's strange, Gavin, is that we agree on practically everything theologically....

[PuritanD]

03-07-2003 @ 07:42 PM
ItalianGold:
No, wait! That's not only within church defined roles. There are other equal-in-quality but "complimentarian" roles for women in marriage, workplace, community, etc. right?

Does the church contend that women are to be allowed to remain at home with children and be fully supported by the father? Or in the inner city black culture where without a matriarchal society there would BE no family? Does the church make sure that these women and children are cared for in ways that are "complimentary" to their God assigned roles as help-mates instead of heads of household? And whatever do you tell your little girls who say they want to devote their lives to a career in politics in order to serve humanity? Are they gently guilded toward marriage and motherhood instead?

Just curious...

You may need to do better than try to argue from an application standpoint. No complimentarian that I am aware of would affirm any of your questions here.

Speaking for myself, another complimentarian, I would argue that they should seek out to be productive within society. If there are no men around, the spiritual responsibility will have to fall upon the mother. However, you cannot escape from the evidence that the spiritual responsibility of the family rests on the husband/father, even if they may be step-parents. As others argue, if a man loves his wife as Christ loves the church with a servant's heart, the wife would have no difficulty biblically submitting to such leadership. As can be seen it is clearly on the shoulders of the man to act rightly.

Admittedly, you have shown that there is great difficulty in the complimentarian's application, but again, this does not effectively disprove's the position. To disprove, you will have to try Biblically.

PuritanD

[ItalianGold]

PuritanD,

Thank you for the respectful reply. Honestly, although there was a little sarcasm in my post, I am actually looking for information, not arguing against the complimentarian position. In that regard my focus is indeed concerned with application rather than Biblical authority.

I would be interested in others' take on this issue.

[Socrates]

PuritanD is coming from the correct position -- let's find out what the Bible says FIRST, then try to apply it to particular situations. It is folly to see what "application" hits one's fancy, then "reinterpret" the Bible to fit, or openly disbelieve it.

And as Puritan seems to say, far too many egalitarians misrepresent the complementarian position. Don Carson has a great example in his book Exegetical Fallacies. He shows how one egalitarian Lawrence O. Richards deceitfully outlines various positions to drive people towards his view. Carson parodies that with very plausible-sounding outlines of the various positions which drive people towards the benevolent headship model.

[dizzle]

You know this sounds like it would be a great Gym debate topic.

[PuritanD]

Dee Dee

I agree that it would be an interesting debate. However, the discussion needs to be fined tune. I am unsure if the gym is where one would argue on such a topic when there is much more disagreement (a.k.a. ItGold desire for application than biblical authority) than just the roles of women in the church.

If there was someone willing to argue against the complimentarian position who fully agrees the the Bible is the final authority and the other four pillars of the faith, I think I would be up to such a debate.

[dizzle]

Dear Puritan:

Why don't you post a challenge with those parameters in the Gym?? If you do post there, be congizant that the Gym is a "moderated" area meaning that all posts all held in abeyance until approved by the Moderator, then they appear on the Board, so don't think your post got swallowed by the Board Monster if it does not appear immediately.