PDA

View Full Version : A temporal gift.



37818
12-04-2017, 06:37 AM
A temporal gift can be lost. Those who hold that one who is saved can yet become lost effectively hold that salvation is yet temporal gift for the Christian.

". . . the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; . . ." -- Hebrews 5:9.

That that salvation is only eternal so long as Christ is obeyed. So salvation is really temporal conditional upon that obedience.

An understanding which relegates salvation to merit as opposed to grace making it temporal and not really a gift and not of grace.

". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8.
". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5.

Cow Poke
12-04-2017, 07:11 AM
:popcorn:

The Remonstrant
12-04-2017, 05:19 PM
Since I have returned (temporarily, at least), have you taken it upon yourself to bait me on the topic of conditional security once more, 37818?

tabibito
12-04-2017, 09:27 PM
A temporal gift can be lost. Those who hold that one who is saved can yet become lost effectively hold that salvation is yet temporal gift for the Christian.

". . . the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; . . ." -- Hebrews 5:9.

That that salvation is only eternal so long as Christ is obeyed. So salvation is really temporal conditional upon that obedience.

An understanding which relegates salvation to merit as opposed to grace making it temporal and not really a gift and not of grace.

". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8.
". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5.

all of which ignores the requirement for repentance - as indicated (but not stated) in Romans 4:7-8 - and the misdeeds that lead to death being relegated to past action - as indicated by Ephesians 2:1-3.

Obsidian
12-04-2017, 10:11 PM
The fact that Christians can earn rewards that will never be lost is supposed to be a key motivation behind living a godly life. If eternal life were not eternal, then this passage would make zero sense.

Matthew 6:19-21
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Tabibito and Remonstrant are not teaching Christianity. They are teaching Moth-and-rustianity.

Cow Poke
12-05-2017, 04:40 AM
all of which ignores the requirement for repentance - as indicated (but not stated) in Romans 4:7-8 - and the misdeeds that lead to death being relegated to past action - as indicated by Ephesians 2:1-3.

It's always a great idea to build theology on things in the Bible that are "indicated" but not stated. :glare:

37818
12-05-2017, 06:00 AM
all of which ignores the requirement for repentance - as indicated (but not stated) in Romans 4:7-8 - and the misdeeds that lead to death being relegated to past action - as indicated by Ephesians 2:1-3.

Repentance was not the issue. For the record Biblical repentance precedes the faith (Mark 1:15). And is to be from trusting in works (Hebrews 6:1).

And to Ephesians 2:1-3 we can add Ephesians 5:5, Galatians 5:19-21 and Revelation 21:8.

37818
12-05-2017, 06:20 AM
Since I have returned (temporarily, at least), have you taken it upon yourself to bait me on the topic of conditional security once more, 37818?

It is nice to see you back, even if it is for a temporal visit. My reason for the thread is in its title. A temporal gift. If in Biblical salvation one who professes salvation can loose it between then and death - then that salvation is not yet eternal salvation. It is really that simple. The meaning of to "obey Him" to have eternal salvation is relevant.

For the record, I am of the persuasion to "obey Him" involves doing His Fathers will (John 7:16; Matthew 7:21). That eternal salvation can only be had as an wholly unmerited gift.

tabibito
12-06-2017, 08:01 PM
It's always a great idea to build theology on things in the Bible that are "indicated" but not stated. :glare:

So 'twould seem. Flatly stated (according to the gospels) by Jesus - "not all who call me lord will enter heaven, but those who do the will of my father."

The "indications" that I referred to are in the same passages that are being mis-applied ... enough to make the interpretations by 37818 uncertain. And his interpretations are in conflict with explicit statements.

Salvation is by grace - might indicate that it can't be lost. (if we go by indications) but the explicit statements throughout the NT regarding salvation are that maintenance is the responsibility of the recipient and cannot be achieved without the Holy Spirit's intervention.

37818
12-07-2017, 06:43 AM
So 'twould seem. Flatly stated (according to the gospels) by Jesus - "not all who call me lord will enter heaven, but those who do the will of my father."

The "indications" that I referred to are in the same passages that are being mis-applied ... enough to make the interpretations by 37818 uncertain. And his interpretations are in conflict with explicit statements.

Salvation is by grace - might indicate that it can't be lost. (if we go by indications) but the explicit statements throughout the NT regarding salvation are that maintenance is the responsibility of the recipient and cannot be achieved without the Holy Spirit's intervention.

". . . Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. . . .
. . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." -- Matthew 7:15, . . . 21-23.

They never where Christ's to begin with - trusting in their own merit. Not in God's grace.

[1 John 5:12; Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 13:5; John 6:37, 44-45; Hebrews 13:5; 1 John 2:19]

tabibito
12-08-2017, 10:18 PM
. . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." -- Matthew 7:15, . . . 21-23.

According to that - do people who fail to do the will of the Father have access to heaven?

1 Cor 6:9 you know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don’t you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunks, slanderers, and robbers will not inherit the kingdom of God. 11 That is what some of you were!

Does a thief have an inheritance in heaven? or an idolater? or even a person who is merely greedy?

Eph 5:5 you know very well that no immoral or impure person, or anyone who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God.

Col 3: 5-6 So put to death your worldly impulses: sexual sin, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). 6 It is because of these things that the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient.

None of your citations obviates the requirement for obedience:
Matthew 28:20, Luke 11:28, Acts 5:32, 1 Cor 7:19, 2 Thess 1:8b, Heb 5:9,

tabibito
12-09-2017, 08:20 PM
The fact that Christians can earn rewards that will never be lost is supposed to be a key motivation behind living a godly life. If eternal life were not eternal, then this passage would make zero sense.

Matthew 6:19-21
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Tabibito and Remonstrant are not teaching Christianity. They are teaching Moth-and-rustianity.

For Remonstrant I cannot speak. As for myself, I acknowledge and teach that Christ requires of the believer loyalty, commitment, and submission to himself and to his command. If anyone has a problem with that, his problem is not with me.

37818
12-10-2017, 07:29 AM
. . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." -- Matthew 7:15, . . . 21-23.

According to that - do people who fail to do the will of the Father have access to heaven?

1 Cor 6:9 you know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don’t you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunks, slanderers, and robbers will not inherit the kingdom of God. 11 That is what some of you were!

Does a thief have an inheritance in heaven? or an idolater? or even a person who is merely greedy?

Eph 5:5 you know very well that no immoral or impure person, or anyone who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God.

Col 3: 5-6 So put to death your worldly impulses: sexual sin, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). 6 It is because of these things that the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient.

None of your citations obviates the requirement for obedience:
Matthew 28:20, Luke 11:28, Acts 5:32, 1 Cor 7:19, 2 Thess 1:8b, Heb 5:9,

". . . In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: . . ."


How do you think one obeys grace?

". . . And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. . . ." -- Romans 11:6.

tabibito
12-10-2017, 08:25 AM
How do you think one obeys grace? "falls from" not "obeys."

Hebrews 10:26 For if we choose to go on sinning after we have learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only a terrifying prospect of judgment and a raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who violates the Law of Moses dies without mercy “on the testimony of two or three witnesses.” 29 How much more severe a punishment do you think that person deserves who tramples on God’s Son, treats as common the blood of the covenant by which it was sanctified, and insults the Spirit of grace?

Luke citing Paul Acts 26:20 Instead, I first told the people in Damascus and Jerusalem, then all the people in Judea—and after that the gentiles—to repent, turn to God, and perform deeds that are consistent with such repentance.

And then there are Paul's own words; even Paul himself

1 Cor 15:34 Come back to your senses as you should, and stop sinning! For some of you—I say this to your shame—don’t fully know God.

Romans 11:17-22 17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either. 22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.

37818
12-10-2017, 10:44 AM
"falls from" not "obeys."

Hebrews 10:26 For if we choose to go on sinning after we have learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only a terrifying prospect of judgment and a raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who violates the Law of Moses dies without mercy “on the testimony of two or three witnesses.” 29 How much more severe a punishment do you think that person deserves who tramples on God’s Son, treats as common the blood of the covenant by which it was sanctified, and insults the Spirit of grace?
". . . By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. . . . This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the LORD, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more. Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. . . ." -- Hebrews 10:10, 16-18.




Luke citing Paul Acts 26:20 Instead, I first told the people in Damascus and Jerusalem, then all the people in Judea—and after that the gentiles—to repent, turn to God, and perform deeds that are consistent with such repentance.Yes, and that repentance precedes the faith, Acts 20:21, ". . . repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."



And then there are Paul's own words; even Paul himself

1 Cor 15:34 Come back to your senses as you should, and stop sinning! For some of you—I say this to your shame—don’t fully know God. Regarding those denying the resurrection, ". . . how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? . . . what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame. But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? . . ."



Romans 11:17-22 17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either. 22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.As a warning to Gentiles against Jewish believers, ". . . For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, . . ." v.13.


". . . And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. . . ." v.6.

Obsidian
12-10-2017, 04:13 PM
The "branches" in Romans 11 are talking about races and nations, not individuals. In that book, Paul wasn't arguing against individual Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then somehow later stopped.

tabibito
12-10-2017, 10:19 PM
". . . By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. . . . This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the LORD, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more. Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. . . ." -- Hebrews 10:10, 16-18.

* Who are the "them" referred to in that passage?
It would seem that the "them" is "those who are sanctified."

Hebrews 10:26 For if we choose to go on sinning after we have learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

The balance of the passage gives examples of how that plays out in practice.
* What does "remission" signify?
It is of course translated from αφεσις - which signifies removal. Quite obviously, if a person sins (and does not repent of it) the sin is still present - it has not been removed.



Yes, and that repentance precedes the faith, Acts 20:21, ". . . repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

so "the deeds consistent with repentance" are nothing more than faith? Strange then that "produce" should be a present participle. πρασσοντας - making a practice of.
αξια της μετανοιας εργα πρασσοντας - making a practice of works appropriate to repentance.


Regarding those denying the resurrection, ". . . how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? . . . what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame. But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? . . ."

As a warning to Gentiles against Jewish believers, ". . . For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, . . ." v.13.

General principles "bad company corrupts good morals" and "come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning" apply to the specifics of the problem under review.
or perhaps you consider that "bad company corrupts good morals; come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning" wouldn't apply to someone who conforms with teachings that advocate promiscuity or idolatry? (Revelation 2:20 for example - thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.)

I am reasonably confident that you would agree with the assessment that "bad company corrupts good morals; ... stop sinning" is a general principle.



". . . And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. . . ." v.6.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

God extends grace to the undeserving, even to the remnant of Israel ... Again, nothing in what you have posted demonstrates that a person cannot fall from grace, nor has any reference that you provided show that there is no obligation on a believer to be loyal, to commit, and to submit to Christ and to his command.

tabibito
12-10-2017, 10:27 PM
The "branches" in Romans 11 are talking about races and nations, not individuals. In that book, Paul wasn't arguing against individual Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then somehow later stopped.

Romans 11 shows that Jewish disciples were not cut off (verse 7) - it does indeed show that the principle applies at the level of individuals. An entire nation is neither saved nor condemned holus bolus.

Note that 37818 introduced the passage, so, it would seem that he at least found it relevant to the discussion.

Obsidian
12-11-2017, 12:07 AM
You are the one who introduced it. Stop lying.

37818
12-11-2017, 06:19 AM
A few side notes: I introduced Romans 11:6. Tabibito introduced Romans 11:17-22. The "wild olive tree" is really addressed as to an individual Gentile in v.17-22. Notice the " . . . that I might be graffed in. . . ." v.19.

Obsidian
12-11-2017, 10:18 AM
The singular pronoun doesn't mean that it's talking about individuals. It's obvious from the context that Paul isn't describing any Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then stopped. Instead, he's describing an entire group of people that, on the whole, used to believe, and then stopped. And he specifically says in Chapter 9 that one reason why the Jews have been hardened is to send a message to the gentiles (plural).

Romans 9:22-24
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Romans 11:30-31
For as ye (plural) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (plural) unbelief: even so have these (plural) also now not believed, that through your (plural) mercy they also (plural) may obtain mercy.

tabibito
12-11-2017, 10:02 PM
A few side notes: I introduced Romans 11:6. Tabibito introduced Romans 11:17-22. The "wild olive tree" is really addressed as to an individual Gentile in v.17-22. Notice the " . . . that I might be graffed in. . . ." v.19.

Yup: and not only in verse 19

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being (ων - ειμι conjugated for 2p singular) a wild olive tree, wert grafted (2ps) in among them, and with them partakest (2ps) of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

37818
12-12-2017, 02:03 PM
The singular pronoun doesn't mean that it's talking about individuals. It's obvious from the context that Paul isn't describing any Jews who used to believe in Christ, and then stopped. Instead, he's describing an entire group of people that, on the whole, used to believe, and then stopped. And he specifically says in Chapter 9 that one reason why the Jews have been hardened is to send a message to the gentiles (plural).

Romans 9:22-24
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Romans 11:30-31
For as ye (plural) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (plural) unbelief: even so have these (plural) also now not believed, that through your (plural) mercy they also (plural) may obtain mercy.


Yup: and not only in verse 19

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being (ων - ειμι conjugated for 2p singular) a wild olive tree, wert grafted (2ps) in among them, and with them partakest (2ps) of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

In the text v.17-22 the language is used as if addressing an individual.

tabibito
12-12-2017, 09:52 PM
First question

Did Jesus come to set us free from sin and from the penalty for sin, OR, did he come to set us free from the penalty for sin?

37818
12-13-2017, 06:30 AM
First question

Did Jesus come to set us free from sin and from the penalty for sin, OR, did he come to set us free from the penalty for sin?

Both, to set us free from sin and its penalty.

". . . And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. . . . _ . . . he that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. . . . " -- 1 John 3:5, . . .8.

We yet await our adoption, ". . . we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 8:23, ". . . now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as He is. . . ." -- 1 John 3:2.

Bibleuser
12-13-2017, 08:33 AM
Surely faith and work must go together where ever??:-

James 2:18-26
Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.
20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works,
23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.
24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.
25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way?
26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

37818
12-13-2017, 09:04 AM
Surely faith and work must go together where ever??:-

James 2:18-26
Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.
20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works,
23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.
24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone.
25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way?
26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Your understanding is mistaken. The Justification by works only applies to one who has been already justified without works (see Romans 4:1-5 with James 2:23). Abraham was in fact justified without works (Genesis 15:6) and much later justified by his works (Genesis 22:12) some 37 to 50 years later.

The Remonstrant
12-17-2017, 01:23 AM
Your understanding is mistaken. The [j]ustification by works only applies to one who has been already justified without works (see Romans 4:1-5 with James 2:23). Abraham was in fact justified without works (Genesis 15:6) and much later justified by his works (Genesis 22:12) some 37 to 50 years later.

You are responding to an adherent of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania.

tabibito
12-17-2017, 02:13 AM
Both, to set us free from sin and its penalty.

". . . And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. . . . _ . . . he that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. . . . " -- 1 John 3:5, . . .8.

We yet await our adoption, ". . . we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 8:23, ". . . now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as He is. . . ." -- 1 John 3:2.

And yet, anyone who has that hope (of seeing him as he is) in him purifies himself, just as he also is pure.

Second question:
How can we have been set free from sin if we are not free to stop sinning?
Third question:
Which sin is it impossible to stop doing?

37818
12-17-2017, 09:50 AM
And yet, anyone who has that hope (of seeing him as he is) in him purifies himself, just as he also is pure.

Second question:
How can we have been set free from sin if we are not free to stop sinning?
Third question:
Which sin is it impossible to stop doing?

The 1 John 3:3 answer is found in 1 John 1:7-2:2, ". . . But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."

The Apostle Paul wrote, ". . . O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. . . . _ . . . we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ." -- Romans 7:24-8:2, . . . 23. ". . . For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. . . ." -- Philippians 3:20-21.

". . . when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. . . ." -- 1 John 3:2.

". . .But with the flesh the law of sin. . . ." -- Romans 7:25. ". . . Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. . . ." -- 1 John 3:4. ". . . For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. . . ." Galatians 3:10; Deuteronomy 27:26. ". . . For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. . . ." -- James 2:10. ". . . Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. . . ." -- Romans 3;19.

". . . For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. . . ." -- Romans 6:14. ". . . But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. . . ." -- Galatians 5:18. ". . . who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. . . ." -- Romans 8:1. ". . . Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. . . ." -- Galatians 5:16.

Which brings us back to 1 John 1:7-2:2. Ephesians 2:8-10. Romans 4:5. Romans 11:6. etc.

tabibito
12-17-2017, 10:07 PM
Which brings us back to 1 John 1:7-2:2. The passage that includes such comments as 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:

Ephesians 2:8-10 Ah yes - we are saved by grace. It pays to investigate the results of taking that for granted.

Romans 4:5. What law and what works are referred to here? The law of Christ, as mentioned in Galatians 6:2? Doesn't seem so.

Romans 11:6 And again - which works is Paul referring to here?

Romans 7:24 to Romans 8:2
First person singular present active indicative throughout. In short, the verbs are in the form of a simple present.

The simple present has has three possible uses:

1/ simple present (not particularly likely)
2/ continuous/imperfect present (very likely)
3/ historical present (fairly likely)

The historical present might be used to establish a contrast between past and present circumstances. Where it is so used, there will be contradictions (inherent in contrasts) between the descriptions of the prior condition and the current condition. Are such contradictions present in Romans 7 and 8? Assuredly so.

"7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin" contradicts both 7:5 (in which Paul claims to be a member of a group that is not in the flesh), and 8:9.

7:14 εγω δε σαρκικος - I am fleshly (i.e. controlled by the influence of the flesh)
7:5 οτε γαρ ημεν εν τη σαρκι τα παθηματα των αμαρτιων - for when we were in the flesh, subject to the influence of sins ("were" is supplied by οτε/when)
8:9 υμεις δε ουκ εστε εν σαρκι αλλ εν πνευματι - but you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit.

So then - attempting to use the section containing 7:14 doesn't demonstrate that Paul was debtor to the flesh, but it may demonstrate that he had been.
Further, even if it was saying that Paul was debtor to the flesh, it by no means demonstrates that to be true for others.

Either Paul contradicts himself, or you have been misinformed regarding the proper reading of the latter part of Romans 7.

37818
12-18-2017, 06:31 AM
Which brings us back to 1 John 1:7-2:2. The passage that includes such comments as 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:

Ephesians 2:8-10 Ah yes - we are saved by grace. It pays to investigate the results of taking that for granted.

Romans 4:5. What law and what works are referred to here? The law of Christ, as mentioned in Galatians 6:2? Doesn't seem so.

Romans 11:6 And again - which works is Paul referring to here?

Romans 7:24 to Romans 8:2
First person singular present active indicative throughout. In short, the verbs are in the form of a simple present.

The simple present has has three possible uses:

1/ simple present (not particularly likely)
2/ continuous/imperfect present (very likely)
3/ historical present (fairly likely)

The historical present might be used to establish a contrast between past and present circumstances. Where it is so used, there will be contradictions (inherent in contrasts) between the descriptions of the prior condition and the current condition. Are such contradictions present in Romans 7 and 8? Assuredly so.

"7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin" contradicts both 7:5 (in which Paul claims to be a member of a group that is not in the flesh), and 8:9.

7:14 εγω δε σαρκικος - I am fleshly (i.e. controlled by the influence of the flesh)
7:5 οτε γαρ ημεν εν τη σαρκι τα παθηματα των αμαρτιων - for when we were in the flesh, subject to the influence of sins ("were" is supplied by οτε/when)
8:9 υμεις δε ουκ εστε εν σαρκι αλλ εν πνευματι - but you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit.

So then - attempting to use the section containing 7:14 doesn't demonstrate that Paul was debtor to the flesh, but it may demonstrate that he had been.
Further, even if it was saying that Paul was debtor to the flesh, it by no means demonstrates that to be true for others.

Either Paul contradicts himself, or you have been misinformed regarding the proper reading of the latter part of Romans 7.

Go back and reread my post #30. Now I am going to add this following comment: Not sinning is a legal standing (1 John 3:4; 1 John 3:6; Romans 4:15) not being under the law (Romans 6:14). Not sinless perfection (1 John 1:8-9, and context).

Now the promise to those who God saves being, ". . . And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. . . ." -- Hebrews 10:17. The "no" has the explicit meaning of "not in any way," meaning never, the Greek being, ου μη, ou me.

tabibito
12-19-2017, 04:42 AM
The overall context of 1 John? It includes the following statement:
3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

The immediate context of 1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Who could claim that he has not sinned? (aside from Christ Jesus, that is).

But how does the ISV render the passage?

8 If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and we’re not being truthful to ourselves. 9 If we make it our habit to confess our sins, in his faithful righteousness he forgives us for those sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have never sinned, we make him a liar and his word has no place in us.

Note that verse 10 in the ISV does highlight the perfect active indicative in rendering ημαρτηκαμεν as "have never sinned." There is no "do not sin" to be found in that verse, and it affects the reading of verse 8. (it is, after all, a matter of full context.)

So - and again - which sin is it that no-one can stop doing?

37818
12-19-2017, 06:34 AM
The overall context of 1 John? It includes the following statement:
3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

The immediate context of 1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Who could claim that he has not sinned? (aside from Christ Jesus, that is).

But how does the ISV render the passage?

8 If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and we’re not being truthful to ourselves. 9 If we make it our habit to confess our sins, in his faithful righteousness he forgives us for those sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have never sinned, we make him a liar and his word has no place in us.

Note that verse 10 in the ISV does highlight the perfect active indicative in rendering ημαρτηκαμεν as "have never sinned." There is no "do not sin" to be found in that verse, and it affects the reading of verse 8. (it is, after all, a matter of full context.)

So - and again - which sin is it that no-one can stop doing?

My question is can we in this sinful body stop sinning? The need for the promise of 1 John 1:9 suggests not.

1 John 3:6 reads, ". . . Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him. . . ."

How do you understand Christians do not sin? It says ". . . whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him. . . ."

Jesus will say to the false professing "I never knew you." -- Matthew 7:23

And those who do not abide in Him will be burned (John 15:6).

tabibito
12-19-2017, 06:53 AM
Perhaps it would be useful to consider that 1 John 1:9 actually says the sins (direct object) are forgiven/remitted us (indirect object). [Forgiving/remitting/divorcing] acts on sins - we are the beneficiaries of the action, not the recipients.

Paul does not regard the Christian to be "in the flesh" unless what he says in Romans chapters 7 and 8 should be understood as

We are not in the flesh (7:5); well, I am in the flesh (7:14) but you are not (8:9) - the problem there being that the "you" are still considered to not be in the flesh.
Is it is impossible to stop sinning, that impossibility doesn't arise from the disciple being in the flesh - he isn't.

Look further, at 8:12-13 ...

But I understand this to be developmental (and rather thoroughly a painful experience.) Nothing I have read leads me to believe that attaining to the state of living without sinning is fast or easy, but that it is a state that follows from perseverance, and only under the aegis of the Holy Spirit. Nor does anything I have read lead me to believe that we will attain to being beyond temptation.

37818
12-19-2017, 12:15 PM
Perhaps it would be useful to consider that 1 John 1:9 actually says the sins (direct object) are forgiven/remitted us (indirect object). [Forgiving/remitting/divorcing] acts on sins - we are the beneficiaries of the action, not the recipients.

Paul does not regard the Christian to be "in the flesh" unless what he says in Romans chapters 7 and 8 should be understood as

We are not in the flesh (7:5); well, I am in the flesh (7:14) but you are not (8:9) - the problem there being that the "you" are still considered to not be in the flesh.
Is it is impossible to stop sinning, that impossibility doesn't arise from the disciple being in the flesh - he isn't.

Look further, at 8:12-13 ...

But I understand this to be developmental (and rather thoroughly a painful experience.) Nothing I have read leads me to believe that attaining to the state of living without sinning is fast or easy, but that it is a state that follows from perseverance, and only under the aegis of the Holy Spirit. Nor does anything I have read lead me to believe that we will attain to being beyond temptation.

We are waiting the adoption Romans 8:23.

The Remonstrant
12-24-2017, 11:49 PM
A temporal gift can be lost. Those who hold that one who is saved can yet become lost effectively hold that salvation is yet temporal gift for the Christian.


"… [Christ] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; …" (Hebrews 5:9)

That that salvation is only eternal so long as Christ is obeyed. So salvation is really temporal[,] condition[ed] upon that obedience.

An understanding which relegates salvation to merit as opposed to grace mak[es] it temporal and not really a gift[,] and not of grace.


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: …" (Ephesians 2:8)
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

[* All scriptural references are taken from the King James Version.]


[A]ll of which ignores the requirement for repentance [—] as indicated (but not stated) in Romans 4:7-8 [—] and the misdeeds that lead to death being relegated to past action [(]as indicated by Ephesians 2:1-3[)].


It's always a great idea to build theology on things in the Bible that are "indicated" but not stated. :glare:

Certain texts in the New Testament stress faith and others repentance. In two places they are set alongside each other as equally necessary for the reception of the good news (see Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). Both are prerequisites for salvation.

37818
12-25-2017, 07:19 AM
Certain texts in the New Testament stress faith and others repentance. In two places they are set alongside each other as equally necessary for the reception of the good news (see Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). Both are prerequisites for salvation.

Yes. Repentance precedes the faith. And sanctification through the Spirit precedes obedience and faith [belief in the truth] (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).

It is the resistance of God's Spirit that men are not sanctified and so do not repent as to believe so they can be regenerated by God's Spirit (Acts 7:51).