Post Mills ....Jesus has overcome the world

[gooner]

John 16.33

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


Does Post Millenialism look forward to a time where the Church overcomes the world or do you see this statement referring only to a particular tribulation.ie 70AD......otherwise this statement seems to argue against optimism.Is this statement addressed only to the disciples or does it speak to us today?

[Dee Dee Warren]

Yesterday @ 03:51 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=360480#post360480)
gooner:

John 16.33

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


Does Post Millenialism look forward to a time where the Church overcomes the world or do you see this statement referring only to a particular tribulation.ie 70AD......otherwise this statement seems to argue against optimism.Is this statement addressed only to the disciples or does it speak to us today?

Thank you for the question gooner. Postmill looks forward to the progressive dominion of Christ (not the Church per se) to be physically manifested upon the earth. That particular statement is not against optimisim of the type postmill envisions for there will always be tribulation of differing magnitude. Tribulation in family, tribulation from a fallen creation, tribulation as Christ overcoming is being worked out. Specifically though I believe Christ was speaking to them for their time, with application that can be made secondarily to us.

[gooner]

[i]

Thank you for the question gooner. Postmill looks forward to the progressive dominion of Christ (not the Church per se) to be physically manifested upon the earth. That particular statement is not against optimisim of the type postmill envisions for there will always be tribulation of differing magnitude. Tribulation in family, tribulation from a fallen creation, tribulation as Christ overcoming is being worked out. Specifically though I believe Christ was speaking to them for their time, with application that can be made secondarily to us.

Thanks DeeDee ........Living in the UK I am reflecting on our 1400 year conflict with the church of Rome; Whitby was the first ecumenical council where the national Celtic expression of Christianity was finally merged into and crushed by Rome.Since the Reformation Rome has longed to reestablish what it considers its Divine mandate....the evidence for this is so overwhelming .......the Roman church is in a sense everything that the victorious post millenial church should be.
Rome is respected and admired universally. Well organised, successful , influential, dignified and authoritative acclaimed uncritically by the worlds media . No other global institution has this kind of influence..... Rome's statements on moral issues are universally heralded. Even the majority of Evangelicals have ceased to question the pronouncements of Rome.It is tolerated almost everywhere despite it's well documented commitment to world domination and is particually commited to the suppresion of Biblical Christianity.
I am not speculating here about Rome's place in the book of Revelation ( or not ).I am saying that here is an historical phenomenum that has not and will not go away....whatever your eschatology Rome is as influential as ever and it's dark shadow continues to intimidate those of us who refuse to engage in any form of ecumenical dialogue with it.The Pope has embraced all religions but he calls us repacious wolves.Europe's increasing move towards political union is well known but what is not as well known is the huge influence of the Vatican in all of this.
I say all this to make the point that I see no grounds for optimism.........the true Church is actually the most powerful force in the world.......and the Roman counterfiet is in reality spiritually weak;since it can offer no assurance of salvation and is a religion of works righteousness....nevertherless the world runs after Rome and hangs on it's every word.......a religion of sex fiend priests and nuns.Post Millenialism presumably envisages the demise of this monster but if it is correct we have a fair few hundred years to go before any one gets a glimpse of the mountain top.Maybe you have to live in Europe to really appreciate the sceptre of this abomination.

[Reader]

gooner:

John 16.33

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Indeed, Christ has overcome the world.

How? By political rule or by popularity?

No . . .by His faithfulness Christ overcame all things in the world, including death.

Christ's victory is first and foremost, spiritual in nature.

And that is the same spiritual victory He promises His people:

"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world . . our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" I John 5:4&5

Thus the "overcoming" and the victory are a spiritual victory. And all the false religions and corrupt kingdoms of the world will not prevail against the preaching of the Gospel or the faithful church of Jesus Christ. (Romans 1:16, Matt. 16:19)

The point being, it is insignificant what is occurring around the Christian in the world. The Christian will know victory over his earthly circumstances and individualistic testings through his faith in Christ. The Christian does not and should not look at political events to determine his eschatology or his hopes for the future. The Christian church need not expect to overcome the Roman Catholic Church and all the other false religions before the Lord's return. These things are temporal and irrelevant to the sure promise of everlasting life in the Kingdom of God.

Because of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, every regenerate believer will remain faithful to the Gospel of Christ (Holy Scriptures), and it is this enduring faith that the Lord will look for when He returns to gather His elect:

". . When the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8b

Thus the Christian only needs to rest in Jesus Christ (Heb. 4:9), and not be distressed by anything he sees happening around him; nor be concerned or led by earthly rumors or fears of any kind.

Here are some simple instructions for how Christians are to live in this world and what they are to concern themselves with:

"If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. . . as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering, bearing with one another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things, put on love, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him." Colossians 3:1-3, 12-17

(From a thankful, cheerful, and optimistic A-Mil Christian!) :wink:

[gooner]

[i]
Christ's victory is first and foremost, spiritual in nature.

And that is the same spiritual victory He promises His people:

And all the false religions and corrupt kingdoms of the world will not prevail against the preaching of the Gospel or the faithful church of Jesus Christ. (Romans 1:16, Matt. 16:19)

The point being, it is insignificant what is occurring around the Christian in the world. The Christian will know victory over his earthly circumstances and individualistic testings through his faith in Christ. The Christian does not and should not look at political events to determine his eschatology or his hopes for the future. The Christian church need not expect to overcome the Roman Catholic Church and all the other false religions before the Lord's return. These things are temporal and irrelevant to the sure promise of everlasting life in the Kingdom of God.

(From a thankful, cheerful, and optimistic A-Mil Christian!) :wink:

Thanks Reader.I concur very much with your form of optimism.Our victory is indeed spiritual and I agree that the political /religious events going on around us are to be set alongside the promises of God to take His people through the trials but if the Christian will not "overcome the RC and other false religions" what is post Millenialism about.....I thought that WAS post millenialism....that a time will come when all false religion is overcome.So our optimism is that Christ has redeemed us;not that society is becoming increasingly brought under the influence of the Kingdom.......surely that is tantamount to a belief in an "earthly" Kingdom.

[Reader]

gooner:
So our optimism is that Christ has redeemed us;not that society is becoming increasingly brought under the influence of the Kingdom.......surely that is tantamount to a belief in an "earthly" Kingdom.

Indeed.

I believe all saints should be on guard against the old heresy, called "chiliasm." It reappears periodically in various forms, and some Post-Mil beliefs come awfully close to the essence of its' teaching. :frown: