Any Amil Post-tribbers here?

[AllofGrace]

Hi,

I was just curious if there were any other amil post-tribbers here?

Michael

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Today @ 03:54 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=361634#post361634)
AllofGrace:

Hi,

I was just curious if there were any other amil post-tribbers here?

Michael

It seems to me that any Amillennialist who believes in a future tribulation (which most seem not to), would be post trib. How could they be pre-trib?

[dizzle]

I believe Solly is one.

[Reader]

AllofGrace:

Hi,

I was just curious if there were any other amil post-tribbers here?

Michael



Here!

[AllofGrace]

Today @ 07:42 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=361737#post361737)
Theonomy:

It seems to me that any Amillennialist who believes in a future tribulation (which most seem not to), would be post trib. How could they be pre-trib?

Yes, if they believe in a future trib., then they would be post-trib. I used the term post-trib. to simply refer to those who are amil but believe in a future tribulation. :o)

[AllofGrace]

Today @ 03:59 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=361893#post361893)
Dee Dee Warren:

I believe Solly is one.

Can I post to solly in this thread without him/her posting to me first?

[AllofGrace]

Today @ 05:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=361984#post361984)
Reader:

Here!

Hi Reader!

I am very glad to hear it! :-)

Do you know of any good websites that promote this view. I am specifically interested in audio messages or written materials that interprete the various passages in the book of Revelation according to this view.

I am aware that there may well be some differences of interpretation among those who hold to this view. I just want to listen all of the different interpretations of Revelation in order to try and discern which is the correct one. :-)

Here is a link to my favorite website in this regard - http://members.aol.com/twarren10/eschatology.html .

Do you know of any good links?

Grace and peace,

Michael

[AllofGrace]

Is there a way to set it so that I get email notifications when peopel post to me in this thread?

Thanks,

Michael

[dizzle]

AllofGrace:

Can I post to solly in this thread without him/her posting to me first?

Sure! He is one of hte moderators so he will be sure to see it.

AllofGrace:

Here is a link to my favorite website in this regard - http://members.aol.com/twarren10/eschatology.html .

Tony is very good in this area.

[/QUOTE]

AllofGrace:

Is there a way to set it so that I get email notifications when peopel post to me in this thread?

Thanks,

Michael


Sure, down at the bottom of the page is "thread options" - hit the pull down and select to receive email notifications.

[Reader]

AllofGrace:

Hi Reader!

I am very glad to hear it! :-)

Hi Michael! Glad to meet you.

Do you know of any good websites that promote this view.

I would have recommended Warren's site, if you had not beat me to it. :wink:

There are also some good resources at http://www.prca.org

[AllofGrace]

Ok, thanks! :-)

[AllofGrace]

I would have recommended Warren's site, if you had not beat me to it. :wink:

There are also some good resources at http://www.prca.org

LOL! Thanks for the link. I will check it out. Here is another one that I found the other day - http://www.vidaeterna.org/eng/prophecy/

God bless,

Michael

[AllofGrace]

Dear Solly,

Do you know of any good websites that are amil & post-trib. I am looking specifically for info that interprets the book of revelation from this point of view.

Thanks,

Michael

[trueseeker]

Welcome Michael

You can get a wide variety of perspectives here at TWeb. I guess you could say that I am partly in your camp. Presently I think the first ressurrection is at the end of the tribulation, which is the Christians killed in the tribulation for their testimony for Jesus. They will be brought back to life and reign with Him during the millenium. At the end of the millenium everyone else will be raised.

[rmwilliamsjr]

01-03-2004 @ 06:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=362018#post362018)
AllofGrace:



Hi Reader!

I am very glad to hear it! :-)

Do you know of any good websites that promote this view. I am specifically interested in audio messages or written materials that interprete the various passages in the book of Revelation according to this view.

I am aware that there may well be some differences of interpretation among those who hold to this view. I just want to listen all of the different interpretations of Revelation in order to try and discern which is the correct one. :-)

Here is a link to my favorite website in this regard - http://members.aol.com/twarren10/eschatology.html .

Do you know of any good links?

Grace and peace,

Michael


thank you very much for the link.
while looking through an excellent list of essays i found: http://members.aol.com/twarren12/articles/conliteral.html

where he wrote
What is meant by "literalism" here? Traditionally a literal hermeneutic referred to the grammatical-historical method, that is, interpreting the Bible as it presents itself. Nowadays, the use of the world "literal" by dispensationalists tends to mean the opposite of "figurative." This tendency to deny figurative interpretations is pursued so aggressively that some say dispensational literalism is more properly described as hyperliteralism.

The conviction of a superior, literalistic approach to Bible interpretation can lead to a spiritual arrogance leading to a feeling of infallibility. One man noted, "As a former dispensationalist I was mesmerized with the literal hermeneutic, the way in which we interpreted the Bible. I was satiated with the confidence that this principle of interpretation was the cornerstone of any true approach to Scripture, and paraded it before all as the bedrock of the dispensational method. This `literal' approach produced in me a calm lethargism to anything the covenant men could say. Any argument they could make was disarmed in advance with such statements as this: `They do not advocate a literal hermeneutic.'"
This testimony illustrates the grave danger that literalism can inadvertently be regarded as a higher standard of truth than the Bible itself. Rather than allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture, the Word of God is sifted through a literalistic filter on the theological presupposition that God shuns figurative prophetic language.

My major study interest is the creation-evolution-design debate and like in the field of prophecy, the hermeneutical methods are really at the heart of the differences seen in the church through history.

perhaps a quick study of hermeneutics then study prophecy would be the best approach to the issues.
so if you find a page with hermeneutical links like this one on prophecy, i'd love to read it.

[Solly]

AOG, apart from the ones mentioned, www.monergism.com is a good place to start. i don't know of any online resources for Revelation, since I am still something of a luddite in that area, and prefer books. Vos, Ridderbos, Hoekema, Riddlebarger - generally, and on Revelation: Hendrickson - Revelation; Hoeksema - Behold he Cometh

[AllofGrace]

Yesterday @ 11:32 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=365874#post365874)
trueseeker:

Welcome Michael

You can get a wide variety of perspectives here at TWeb. I guess you could say that I am partly in your camp. Presently I think the first ressurrection is at the end of the tribulation, which is the Christians killed in the tribulation for their testimony for Jesus. They will be brought back to life and reign with Him during the millenium. At the end of the millenium everyone else will be raised.

Hi, nice to meet you. :-)

Sounds like you are post-trib / premil. At least we agree on half of it. I personally cannot reconcile the clear verses in the New Testament (NT) with premillennialism. It seems to me that we must either take the clear verses in the NT "literally", or we must take the book of Revelation "literally". If we try to do both, there is a contradiction. And we know that Scripture does not contradict itself (Jn 10:35).

Since I believe that we are to intepret the unclear verses in light of the clear ones, I believe that we must interpret Rev. 20 in light of the rest of the New Testament. When I do that, I arrive at Amillennialism. :-)

Thanks for the reply,

Michael

[AllofGrace]

Today @ 12:11 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=365955#post365955)
rmwilliamsjr:

thank you very much for the link.

so if you find a page with hermeneutical links like this one on prophecy, i'd love to read it.

I am glad that you liked the link. :-)

If I run across anything, I will try to remember to let you know.

[AllofGrace]

Today @ 09:28 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=366439#post366439)
Solly:

AOG, apart from the ones mentioned, www.monergism.com is a good place to start. i don't know of any online resources for Revelation, since I am still something of a luddite in that area, and prefer books. Vos, Ridderbos, Hoekema, Riddlebarger - generally, and on Revelation: Hendrickson - Revelation; Hoeksema - Behold he Cometh

Thanks for the link and the info regarding books. I will probably try to get ahold of the last two that you mentioned. Do you know how they interpret the harlot? Do they say that it is Rome? If so, I would probably not be interested, as I do not agree with that interpretation.

Thanks again,

Michael

[AllofGrace]

Dear Solly,

Hey, I just want to let you know that I ordered both books. I also found Hoeksema's book "Behold he Cometh" online here - http://spindleworks.com/library/hoeksma/intro.htm . That will give me something to read until I get the hardcover.

Thank you so much for your recommendations! I really appreciate it. :-)

[Solly]

Yesterday @ 05:54 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=366889#post366889)
AllofGrace:



Thanks for the link and the info regarding books. I will probably try to get ahold of the last two that you mentioned. Do you know how they interpret the harlot? Do they say that it is Rome? If so, I would probably not be interested, as I do not agree with that interpretation.

Thanks again,

Michael

I haven't read them yet, so don't know. Identifying the harlot with Rome tends to be a classic premill approach in Reformed circles, but there is some blurring of the edges in eschatological views in the reformed camp, with classic, as opposed to neo, post millers not too much different from amillers, and classic premillers ending up as post millers, unless they have a fixation on Rome, such as the Irish Presbyterians

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Today @ 09:11 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=367728#post367728)
Solly:

I haven't read them yet, so don't know. Identifying the harlot with Rome tends to be a classic premill approach in Reformed circles, but there is some blurring of the edges in eschatological views in the reformed camp, with classic, as opposed to neo, post millers not too much different from amillers, and classic premillers ending up as post millers, unless they have a fixation on Rome, such as the Irish Presbyterians

And of course the historicists in the Reformed camp, many of whom are amil )although some were postmil), see Rome as the harlot as well. Wycliffe was a prime example, even before "Reformed" was a popular word.

[Solly]

Yes, we still have them in our own denomination, turning out tracts about MYSTERY BABYLON REVEALED IN THE VATICAN OF ROME (it's always capital letters, isn't it :lol:)

[Reader]

AllofGrace:

Dear Solly,

Hey, I just want to let you know that I ordered both books. I also found Hoeksema's book "Behold he Cometh" online here - http://spindleworks.com/library/hoeksma/intro.htm . That will give me something to read until I get the hardcover.

Thank you so much for your recommendations! I really appreciate it. :-)

Hoeksema defines the harlot as the apostate "church." For the sake of other readers without the book, here is a brief quote regarding Revelation 17:15-18:

"And the order of events will evidently be thus, that the apostate church as a separate church institution will be done away with first of all, so that the church shall no more exist, and that then exactly this destruction of the church apostate shall lead to the final unification of all so-called religion, and culminate in the religion of the beast, without any church as such, but with Babylon, the great city, for its leading center. . .The woman, we must remember, in her outward appearance is the instituted church of Christ on earth. Outwardly, she is nothing but the church in her entire appearance in the world. In every respect she looks like the true church externally. She calls herself church of Christ. She has her church edifices, just as the true church. In those sanctuaries the congregation gathers, at least on every sabbath, for worship. As you enter, you find that on the pulpit lies the Word of God, the Scriptures, just as it is in the true church. There is no difference. Behind the pulpit stands the regularly ordained minister of the Word. Regardless now of what use there is made of that Bible on the pulpit, regardless too of how the minister accomplishes his task of administering the Word, fact is that outwardly there is no difference. The Bible on the pulpit and the minister of that Bible behind it, pretending to administer the Word of God to the congregation , and that congregation too, in outward appearnace look like the true church. They sing and pray, confess, and listen to the preaching of the Word. And as they go, they receive the benediction in the name of God. Regardless, again, of the nature of their worship, they evidently gather for the worship of God in their sanctuary. Yea, you will find that not only the Word but also the sacraments are administered. The members of the church are baptized; and occasionally they gather around the table of communion solemnly to celebrate the supper of the Lord. We may have our scruples as to the significance attached to these things. Fact is, nevertheless, that the sacraments as well as the Word are administered, just as well as in the the true church of christ. In a word, the harlot woman represents the church, the church of Christ, with the Word and the sacraments, as she comes to manifestation here upon earth. The woman is the church as we know her. Just as well as any real harlot outwardly looks just like any other woman, so also does the harlot-church look like the true church of Christ on earth in her entire appearance.

. . . The woman is directly called the harlot. She is the harlot in a two-fold sense. In the first place, she is that because she allows herself to be the whore of the kings of the world, with which the great of the world can do as they please, on the which they can satisfy all their desire. But, in the second place, she is also the great whore because she is the mother of abominations, and makes all the inhabitants of the world drunken with the wine of her fornications. And therefore we obtain the two-fold picture that, on the one hand, the instituted church allows herself to be employed by the world-power, and, on the other hand, she leads all the individual inhabitants of the earth to follow her in this and to serve the purpose of the beast."
Herman Hoeksema, "Behold, He Cometh" ChapterXLII, Pages 580-584 (Emphasis, mine.)

Rev. Hoeksema then goes on to describe the true church in constrast to the harlot.

This is excellent reading, and anyone interested can obtain the volume at:

Reformed Free Publishing Assoc.
4949 Ivanrest Ave.
Grandville, MI 49418-9709 USA

Website: http://www.rfpa.org

[AllofGrace]

Today @ 06:04 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=368157#post368157)
Reader:

Hoeksema defines the harlot as the apostate "church."
Rev. Hoeksema then goes on to describe the true church in constrast to the harlot.

This is excellent reading, and anyone interested can obtain the volume at:

Reformed Free Publishing Assoc.
4949 Ivanrest Ave.
Grandville, MI 49418-9709 USA

Website: http://www.rfpa.org

I ordered the book, but in the meantime until it arrives, I printed out and read (I hate reading online) his chapters on Rev 11, 12 & 13. I have also printed out his info on Rev 17 & 18, but have not read it yet.

Good stuff! I was up until 2 in the morning reading. I am really anjoying it. I also ordered the book by William Hendrickson and am waiting for it. :-)

God bless,

Michael

[Reader]

AllofGrace:

I also ordered the book by William Hendrickson and am waiting for it. :-)

God bless,

Michael

Hendrickson is especially valuable, in that he gives a great overview and teaches ~how~ to read the Book of Revelation.

You will be edified!

[AllofGrace]

Today @ 06:38 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=368244#post368244)
Reader:

Hendrickson is especially valuable, in that he gives a great overview and teaches ~how~ to read the Book of Revelation.

You will be edified!

Now you really have me wanting to read it! :-)

Why didn't I choose express shipping? LOL

[AllofGrace]

01-03-2004 @ 07:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=362174#post362174)
Reader:
I would have recommended Warren's site, if you had not beat me to it. :wink:

Do you post over at Tony's forum? And if so, what is your name over there? Mine is the same as here - AllofGrace. :-)

Michael

[Reader]

AllofGrace:

Do you post over at Tony's forum? And if so, what is your name over there? Mine is the same as here - AllofGrace. :-)

Michael

I am just a "reader" there at present.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

01-08-2004 @ 10:09 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=367751#post367751)
Solly:

Yes, we still have them in our own denomination, turning out tracts about MYSTERY BABYLON REVEALED IN THE VATICAN OF ROME (it's always capital letters, isn't it :lol:)

Actually, my bad I think, Wycliffe didn't call Rome the harlot - or maybe he did, it's a little fuzzy, he may have called it the antichrist.

But yes, it's funny to see the sensationalism in those circles sometimes, especially when they are supposedly Reformed conservative types. Check out http://www.swrb.com/Puritan/reformation-eschatology.htm

Futurism and preterism were invented by the Jesuits! Good for a laugh!

[AllofGrace]

01-10-2004 @ 10:37 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=371574#post371574)
Reader:
I am just a "reader" there at present.

Reader is just a reader there? That is too funny! LOL

[AllofGrace]

01-08-2004 @ 06:38 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=368244#post368244)
Reader:



Hendrickson is especially valuable, in that he gives a great overview and teaches ~how~ to read the Book of Revelation.

You will be edified!

I got my Hendriksen book and have read all but the last chapter, and you are right it was a blessing. I especially liked the first few chapters that speak about how the book is to be interpreted. :-)

I do not agree with everything that he says, for example I cannot possibly see how the 7 vials could refer to the entire present dispensation. It seems clear to me that they represent the last day, that great and terrible Day of the Lord.

I am also reading the book by Hoeksema and contrasting his interpretations with those of Hendriksen. :-)

God bless,

Michael

[AllofGrace]

01-08-2004 @ 09:11 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=367728#post367728)
Solly:I haven't read them yet, so don't know.

Dear Solly,

If you do not mind, would you please tell me how you view the timing of the seals, trumpets and vials? Do you see them all as representing this entire dispensation, or do you see them in another light?

Thanks in advance for your reply!

Michael

[AllofGrace]

Dear Solly & Reader,

Here is how I currently understand the timing of the seals, trumpets & vials. If you do not think that this is right, please show me where you think that I have erred.

The Seals

I see the first 4 seals running concurrently (at the same time) from the cross until the Great Tribulation (GT) mentioned in Matt. 24:21. I see the 5th seal as taking place at the beginning of the GT and the 6th seal as taking place immediately after the GT (when the sun, moon and stars turn dark - Matt 24:29). I see the 7th seal as taking place at the second coming.

The trumpets

I see the first 4 trumpets as also running concurrently from the cross until the Great Tribulation (GT). I see the 5th trumpet as taking place as Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit at the beginning of the GT (Rev. 9:2; 20:7). I see the 6th trumpet as taking place some time during the GT. I see the 7th trumpet (last trump - 1 Cor. 15:52) as taking place at the second coming.

The Vials

I see all 7 of the vials taking place in rapid succession immediately after the tribulation in that last day, the great and terrible day of the Lord. Which I see as either a literal 24 hour day, or a very short period of time (days not weeks).

I have not provided all of the Scriptures that lead me to see things this way because I am not seeking to prove this position to anyone. Rather, I am interested in finding the truth regarding this matter. If these things are wrong, I would like to know why and what the truth of the matter is.

I would be interested in hearing how you guys see the timing of the seals, trumpets and vials.

Thanks,

Michael

[Reader]

AllofGrace:


I would be interested in hearing how you guys see the timing of the seals, trumpets and vials.



Over all, I believe you comprehend the overlapping of the seals and trumpets correctly and I agree with you.

However, I have found that often when I think I have things lined up neat and pat in my mind, I will read a portion that throws my attempts to line things up, out of whack. I have learned to flow with the information these visions give, and not try to lock in on a set pattern of events. This is because there are recaps of prophecies, and details added of the same predicted events, scattered throughout Chapters 4 through 20.

There might be some overlap, too, between the sixth trumpet and the first four vials, but the last three vials are definitely the last of God's judgments against the ungodly world at large.

This is a far more successful way to read the events, rather than trying to force the visions into a strict chronology. And spiritual generalization is probably wiser than trying to literally name specific times, kingdoms, and persons.

May God richly bless your reading of the Book, as He has promised. (Revelation 1:3)

[AllofGrace]

Dear Reader,

Thank you for giving me your imput concerning this! :-)

Michael

[Jude3b]

I'm curious to learn more about your question. Wouldn't a believer who is AMIL - recognize that the tribulation took place in A.D. 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem? Also, doesn't AMIL adherents accept the fact that there have been tribulations all through the entire church age? Surely, the Martrydom by Romanism, also in some cases even by Protestantism and very mush so the Martrydoms afflicted upon Christians by Islam would be an example of present day tribulation. Wouldn't you expect that such tribulations would continue until Christ returns?
I love AMIL brethren, Sincerely, Jude 3b

[AllofGrace]

I'm curious to learn more about your question. Wouldn't a believer who is AMIL - recognize that the tribulation took place in A.D. 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem?

No, that is the Preterist viewpoint. I personally believe that the preterist viewpoint requires one to severly twist Scripture. But there are many people who are Amil. who are not preterists. These people (myself included) believe that the great tribulation of which Jesus spoke is yet future. You will find many of us at this forum http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?board=2 .

After all, this view is necessitated by the text itself, which clearly says that Jesus will come "Immediately after the Tribulation". If the great tribulation of which Jesus spoke ended in 70 AD, then Jesus would have come in 70 AD. But of course, we know that this is not true. Also, we dare not spiritualize the coming of which Jesus spoke, for He clearly said that this coming would be like lightning which is seen from the east unto the west. No, "every eye shall see him" (Rev. 1:7).

Also, there is absolutely no way that the trials of 70 AD, was a time of "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Nor could it be accurately said in 70 AD that "except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved". All flesh certainly was not in danger of being destroyed. Also, Daniel made it clear that the resurrection of the dead would take place immediately following this same period of great tribulation.

Daniel 12:1-2 ...and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time ... And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Clearly, the dead were not raised, nor judged, in 70 AD.

These are just some of the arguments that could be put forth in defense of this position. You will find many more at the link that I gave.

Michael