Jephthah's vow

[foudroyant]

[Raphael]

JP holds to the thesis that she wasn't sacrificed, but devoted to a life of temple service which would mean she was a virgin for her entire life

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jepthah.php <-- page has an error at the moment.

[KingsGambit]

Having said that, Paul Copan indicates that most scholars do hold that it was a literal human sacrifice.

[Obsidian]

Saying that it was "temple service" basically assumes that God approves of nuns, and I disagree with that premise. Further, there's just nothing in the text to support it.

[KingsGambit]

Saying that it was "temple service" basically assumes that God approves of nuns, and I disagree with that premise. Further, there's just nothing in the text to support it.

Wouldn't what Hannah did seem like temple service as well?

[Obsidian]

The point is that these Catholic sympathizers try to use the "virginity" of Jephthah's daughter to advocate the vow of celibacy. The Bible makes it clear that Samuel both worked in the tabernacle, and had sons.

[Paprika]

Saying that it was "temple service" basically assumes that God approves of nuns, and I disagree with that premise. Further, there's just nothing in the text to support it.

How do you know that God disapproves of nuns?

[Obsidian]

The only vows that God accepted are found in Numbers 6 and Leviticus 27. Do not add to his word, lest you be found a liar. They all involve giving something to God, not taking something from yourself for its own sake. And at least indirectly, they all relate in some way to killing animals, strongly suggesting that they are no longer applicable anyway.

1 Timothy 4
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Deuteronomy 23
1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 7
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

1 Corinthians 9
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

1 Timothy 5
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

[One Bad Pig]

The point is that these Catholic sympathizers try to use the "virginity" of Jephthah's daughter to advocate the vow of celibacy. The Bible makes it clear that Samuel both worked in the tabernacle, and had sons.

I'm sure JP will be thrilled to learn he's a Catholic sympathizer.

[Paprika]

The only vows that God accepted are found in Numbers 6 and Leviticus 27. Do not add to his word, lest you be found a liar. They all involve giving something to God, not taking something from yourself for its own sake. And at least indirectly, they all relate in some way to killing animals, strongly suggesting that they are no longer applicable anyway.

1 Timothy 4
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Deuteronomy 23
1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 7
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

1 Corinthians 9
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

1 Timothy 5
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

[Obsidian]

I'm sure JP will be thrilled to learn he's a Catholic sympathizer.

He also promotes works-salvation with his "Semitic Totality Concept" salvation. And I would not exactly call him Orthodox on the doctrine of hell. Not my ideal theologian.

[One Bad Pig]

The only vows that God accepted are found in Numbers 6 and Leviticus 27. Do not add to his word, lest you be found a liar. They all involve giving something to God, not taking something from yourself for its own sake. And at least indirectly, they all relate in some way to killing animals, strongly suggesting that they are no longer applicable anyway.

Everything in the Mosaic Covenant related at least indirectly in some way to killing animals.

1 Timothy 4
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

This is talking about forbidding everyone to marry, not people voluntarily not marrying.

Deuteronomy 23
1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

This has nothing to do with marriage, and nobody is advocating that monastics mutilate themselves first.

1 Corinthians 7
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

It takes a certain amount of chutzpah to invoke a passage that begins, "It is good for a man not to touch a woman" against the idea of voluntary celibacy.

1 Corinthians 9
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

What does this have do to with voluntary celibacy?

1 Timothy 5
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

The word "women" is not in the Greek, but is supplied for clarity. However, the whole passage is talking about widows specifically, not women in general. Most translations, like the NASB you also approve, have "widows" there.

[One Bad Pig]

He also promotes works-salvation with his "Semitic Totality Concept" salvation.

I'm sure he'd find this allegation amusing.

And I would not exactly call him Orthodox on the doctrine of hell. Not my ideal theologian.

His explanation of hell is quite compatible with Orthodoxy, even though he isn't Orthodox. I'm guessing you didn't mean to capitalize that, however.

[Obsidian]

The word "women" is not in the Greek, but is supplied for clarity. However, the whole passage is talking about widows specifically, not women in general. Most translations, like the NASB you also approve, have "widows" there.

So only widows should avoid becoming nuns?

It takes a certain amount of chutzpah to invoke a passage that begins, "It is good for a man not to touch a woman" against the idea of voluntary celibacy.

How is it voluntary if they're under bondage? What is the point of the vow, if it's "voluntary"?

This has nothing to do with marriage, and nobody is advocating that monastics mutilate themselves first.

Didn't one of the holy "Church Fathers" do just that? Anyway, the point is that standing in the way of marriage is a pagan concept.

Everything in the Mosaic Covenant related at least indirectly in some way to killing animals.

It would be my position that all vows, which were implemented to support the aaronic temple priesthood, are now invalid because the Bible classifies all new testament believers as priests. But that is a side issue to this discussion. The point is that even the old testament law, under which Jephthah operated, did not allow for vows of celibacy. So the idea proposed in JP Holding's video is incorrect.

[One Bad Pig]

So only widows should avoid becoming nuns?

Paul is not arguing for or against celibacy in the passage. The church was enjoined to support widows. Young widows were taking license with that and being idle busybodies. As a solution to that problem, Paul recommends that they get married instead of being freeloaders. Nuns are typically not idle busybodies, and so are not being addressed here.

How is it voluntary if they're under bondage? What is the point of the vow, if it's "voluntary"?

What the heck are you talking about? All vows are voluntary.

Didn't one of the holy "Church Fathers" do just that?

Origen apparently did that, and was roundly castigated for doing so. He is regarded as a Church Father, but not as a saint.

Anyway, the point is that standing in the way of marriage is a pagan concept.

Who's standing in the way of marriage? And how is that pagan?

It would be my position that all vows, which were implemented to support the aaronic temple priesthood, are now invalid because the Bible classifies all new testament believers as priests. But that is a side issue to this discussion. The point is that even the old testament law, under which Jephthah operated, did not allow for vows of celibacy. So the idea proposed in JP Holding's video is incorrect.

Old Testament law did no such thing. There are examples of certain vows made as part of the Mosaic covenant, but that doesn't mean other vows were not allowed. Numbers 30 regulates other vows, which were not restricted in scope.