Who Is The Bride [Archive] - TheologyWeb Campus

Just The Facts

January 8th 2004, 10:25 AM

Hi

I just got the boot on another forum over this so I thought I would come here and see if I get booted here for sticking to the WORD and not the Doctrines of Men.

WHO is the Bride of Christ.

And if you are going to say the church.

Then please post where Jesus says we are the Bride.

yxboom

January 8th 2004, 11:51 AM

Revelation describes the Heavenly Jerusalem as the Bride.

Revelation 12:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed-
13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.

Just The Facts

January 8th 2004, 12:21 PM

Hi

WOW

(smile)

yxboom

January 8th 2004, 12:28 PM

:eh:

Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat

January 8th 2004, 12:30 PM

Today @ 09:25 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=367875#post367875)
Just The Facts:

Hi

I just got the boot on another forum over this so I thought I would come here and see if I get booted here for sticking to the WORD and not the Doctrines of Men.

Good thing we are lenient. Please post your thoughts on who the Bride is. We have certain criteria for thos Eschatology forum. If your view falls outside of orthodoxy, we need to move it to Comparative religions. We're a bit quirky like that, but it's really hard to get banned here...

Non-Trinitarian

January 8th 2004, 01:10 PM

Today @ 02:25 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=367875#post367875)
Just The Facts:

Hi

I just got the boot on another forum over this so I thought I would come here and see if I get booted here for sticking to the WORD and not the Doctrines of Men.

WHO is the Bride of Christ.

And if you are going to say the church.

Then please post where Jesus says we are the Bride.

2 Cor 11:2- "For I am jealous over you with a godly jeolousy, for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband that I might present you as a chaste virgin to the Christ."

Eph 5:31,32 -"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the church."

Just The Facts

January 8th 2004, 03:40 PM

Hi

My view on this is to follow the WORD............THE LAMB.....................Not doctrines of Men.

When Paul is speaking in both of these cases he is using an analogy to explain how we should be total devoted and loyal to Christ. As a Wife is to her Husband.

2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Here is Holy Jerusalem it is the Bride.

Well what is Holy Jerusalem is it the Church.

Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Well how can the church be the holy city and enter into itself through the gate. It can not

3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Holy Jerusalem is Gods Tent or House in heaven

14:2 In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

So what are we the True believers in Christ if not the Bride

7: He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON.

Well I think that is very plain we are sons……… when a Son come to a wedding he is a Guest

Mk 2:19Jesus said to them, "THE WEDDING GUESTS cannot fast while the bridegroom is with them, can they? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

Lk 5:34Jesus said to them, "You cannot MAKE WEDDING GUESTS fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you?

Now the KJV translates it as Children not guests the literal Greek is Sons.

Either way if you are a child or a son you are not the Bride.

The Bride is very clearly Holy Jerusalem Gods tent or mansion that we enter into through the gates.

To use Paul's analogy to discard Jesus very plain words is folly and leads to false doctrines.

Chief of Staff Lizard

January 8th 2004, 04:13 PM

Today @ 02:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=368349#post368349)
Just The Facts:

Hi

My view on this is to follow the WORD............THE LAMB.....................Not doctrines of Men.

When Paul is speaking in both of these cases he is using an analogy to explain how we should be total devoted and loyal to Christ. As a Wife is to her Husband.

2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Here is Holy Jerusalem it is the Bride.

Well what is Holy Jerusalem is it the Church.

Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Well how can the church be the holy city and enter into itself through the gate. It can not

3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Holy Jerusalem is Gods Tent or House in heaven

14:2 In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

So what are we the True believers in Christ if not the Bride

7: He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON.

Well I think that is very plain we are sons……… when a Son come to a wedding he is a Guest

Mk 2:19Jesus said to them, "THE WEDDING GUESTS cannot fast while the bridegroom is with them, can they? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

Lk 5:34Jesus said to them, "You cannot MAKE WEDDING GUESTS fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you?

Now the KJV translates it as Children not guests the literal Greek is Sons.

Either way if you are a child or a son you are not the Bride.

The Bride is very clearly Holy Jerusalem Gods tent or mansion that we enter into through the gates.

To use Paul's analogy to discard Jesus very plain words is folly and leads to false doctrines.

:huh:

Dosn't Paul also say that the church is part of the body?

1 Corinthians 12 ESV
19If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."

So are we sons or body parts?

If we are body parts, when Jesus tells us to eat of his body, does that me we have to eat ourselves?

Maybe I'm not following your argument, but from what I can follow the above is your argument taken to its logical (and I use that term loosley) conclusion.

And you still haven't told us who you think the bride is.

Just my :2cents:

studyhound

January 8th 2004, 04:28 PM

Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat

January 8th 2004, 04:30 PM

I believe he is saying it is the New Jerusalem city itself and not the Church. Am I correct?

Just The Facts

January 8th 2004, 04:35 PM

Hi

Please read my previous post again. I thought I made it very clear what the Word and there for I say the Bride is.

Hi

My view on this is to follow the WORD............THE LAMB.....................Not doctrines of Men.

When Paul is speaking in both of these cases he is using an analogy to explain how we should be total devoted and loyal to Christ. As a Wife is to her Husband.

2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Here is Holy Jerusalem it is the Bride.

Well what is Holy Jerusalem is it the Church.

Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Well how can the church be the holy city and enter into itself through the gate. It can not

3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Holy Jerusalem is Gods Tent or House in heaven

14:2 In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

So what are we the True believers in Christ if not the Bride

7: He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON.

Well I think that is very plain we are sons……… when a Son come to a wedding he is a Guest

Mk 2:19Jesus said to them, "THE WEDDING GUESTS cannot fast while the bridegroom is with them, can they? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

Lk 5:34Jesus said to them, "You cannot MAKE WEDDING GUESTS fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you?

Now the KJV translates it as Children not guests the literal Greek is Sons.

Either way if you are a child or a son you are not the Bride.

The Bride is very clearly Holy Jerusalem Gods tent or mansion that we enter into through the gates.

To use Paul's analogy to discard Jesus very plain words is folly and leads to false doctrines.

Reader

January 8th 2004, 04:44 PM

Just The Facts:

Hi

My view on this is to follow the WORD............THE LAMB.....................Not doctrines of Men.

When Paul is speaking in both of these cases he is using an analogy to explain how we should be total devoted and loyal to Christ. As a Wife is to her Husband.

Yes, the verses that speak of believers in the church being a type of the "wife" of Christ, are called unto faithfulness. It is this faithfulness that is depicted as spiritual virginity in the Scriptures.
(e.g. II Cor. 11:2)

2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Here is Holy Jerusalem it is the Bride.

Not quite. The "holy city" comes down prepared ~as~ a bride adorned for her husband. I believe this is picture of preparation for consummation of the union of humanity with God in eternity.

First, the heavenly Jerusalem is symbolic as the "mother of us all." (Galatians 4:26). Who is "us all?" All the "children of promise." (Galatians 4:28) The faithful and Godly offspring of Abraham that find life through his Seed, Jesus Christ, by faith.

So the holy city, the heavenly Jerusalem produces all the faithful sons of God; all believers saved by the grace of God through the gift of faith. The heavenly Jerusalem thus is the dwelling place of all the children of promise; she is their mother and temple; their holy city where they will abide with God forever. Thus, "Jerusalem" is actually the Kingdom of God; heaven itself.

She is adorned as a bride in wedding garments. What are the wedding garments? The "white robes" given to all the saints who abide within her, which symbolizes salvation through the righteousness of Jesus Christ. (Rev. 6:11, 7:14)

Why are the saints in wedding garments? Because they have been ~called~ to the "marriage supper of the Lamb." Rev. 19:9

These are the children of the Covenant of Promise from the Seed of Abraham; cleansed in the blood of the Lamb; virgins made fit (justified) to become one with God.

I believe the Covenant of Promise is like a betrothal contract. God has legally sanctified and betrothed souls to Himself; first to a few souls only, then to those of the nation of Israel, and now to persons out of all the nations who hear the Gospel preached. However, only those betrothed whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life and found faithful on the day of the marriage supper of the Lamb, will forever be in spiritual union with God.

God has cast away many betrothed here on this earth for unfaithfulness, but those who endure (through the power of the Holy Spirit) until the "marriage supper of the Lamb" will actually consummate union with God in the Kingdom.

So, technically, the church is only a type of bride by promise; a betrothed bride who has not yet consummated contract with the bridegroom. After the final resurrection, the books will be opened and Christ will testify as to who indeed is to be His faithful "bride" forever and ever.

Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Well how can the church be the holy city and enter into itself through the gate. It can not

What is the "gate" but the Gospel itself. (Matt. 7:14)
What is the "door" but Christ Himself. (John 10:1-3)

You cannot read the symbolism in the Book of Revelation in literal fashion, but must go to the Scriptures to see how these symbols are used by the Holy Spirit to teach and depict grand truths. They interact and paint a mosaic, not a one-dimensional picture.

Well I think that is very plain we are sons……… when a Son come to a wedding he is a Guest

Indeed we are sons. But one figurative example does not necessarily preclude other symbolic language being used to describe the complex works of God.

Christians are "sons of God" as well as beloved and betrothed to Christ, as a husband to his wife. Christians are the offspring of the "Jerusalem that is free" as well as inhabitants and inheritors of her glory. (Hebrews 12:22-24)

These are complex, infinite, spiritual realities being conveyed to finite minds. We must read all the symbolism as a whole and enjoy the many parts thereof. We should not eliminate one detail to cling to another, but appreciate all that each piece of information brings us. We study and search all of Holy Scripture to obtain the greatest appreciation of the Spirit's use of figurative language, becoming familiar with how God uses words, and thus ensure accuracy in our conclusions.

The Bride is very clearly Holy Jerusalem Gods tent or mansion that we enter into through the gates.

Scripture interprets the "holy city," and her adornments:

"You have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to all the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel." Hebrews 12:22-24

studyhound

January 8th 2004, 04:45 PM

Just The Facts:

Hi

Please read my previous post again. I thought I made it very clear what the Word and there for I say the Bride is.

No not really, if three people are still unsure.

To use Paul's analogy to discard Jesus very plain words is folly and leads to false doctrines.

So we reject part of the scripture for another, does the bible contradict itself?

Non-Trinitarian

January 8th 2004, 05:18 PM

Today @ 07:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=368349#post368349)
Just The Facts:

Hi

My view on this is to follow the WORD............THE LAMB.....................Not doctrines of Men.

When Paul is speaking in both of these cases he is using an analogy to explain how we should be total devoted and loyal to Christ. As a Wife is to her Husband.

2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Here is Holy Jerusalem it is the Bride.

Well what is Holy Jerusalem is it the Church.

Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Well how can the church be the holy city and enter into itself through the gate. It can not

3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Holy Jerusalem is Gods Tent or House in heaven

14:2 In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

So what are we the True believers in Christ if not the Bride

7: He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON.

Well I think that is very plain we are sons……… when a Son come to a wedding he is a Guest

Mk 2:19Jesus said to them, "THE WEDDING GUESTS cannot fast while the bridegroom is with them, can they? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

Lk 5:34Jesus said to them, "You cannot MAKE WEDDING GUESTS fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you?

Now the KJV translates it as Children not guests the literal Greek is Sons.

Either way if you are a child or a son you are not the Bride.

The Bride is very clearly Holy Jerusalem Gods tent or mansion that we enter into through the gates.

To use Paul's analogy to discard Jesus very plain words is folly and leads to false doctrines.
And to use the highly symbolic language of Revelation to undermine Paul's clear analogy is your folly. You're certainly free to believe what you want but I don't think it can get much clearer than what Paul said. The church is promised in MARRIAGE to the Christ. 'A man will leave his parents and stick to his wife, I am now talking about the Christ and the CHURCH,' said Paul.

Are you saying Jesus is marrying a city? I think I'll stick with Paul's explanation.

BTW, the church is the BODY of beleivers in which individual members of the church enter. People who are part of the Church commonly speak of the Church as a body distinct from the individual. IE, "My Church does so and so" or "We must listen and follow heed to the Church" even though this person is still part of the Church. Individual members of the church must work with the united Church, entering God's kingdom through it. Thus, Rev 22:14 does not prove your point.

Just The Facts

January 8th 2004, 06:06 PM

Hi reader

That was well presented. And I can see from your Post you are a Post mil believer perhaps even a preterist.

I am not for many reasons which i am sure we will discuss over time.

I am well aware of the symbolism of Revelation and you will find that I more then anyone you have ever met rely on scripture to explain its own symbols. It is the very basis of my understanding of Scripture.

Let us look at what you have said

Quote
Not quite. The "holy city" comes down prepared ~as~ a bride adorned for her husband. I believe this is picture of preparation for consummation of the union of humanity with God in eternity.
End Quote

Ok so you want to split hairs and say No it say like not is

SOOOOOO

9: And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE.10: And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Next you say

Quote
First, the heavenly Jerusalem is symbolic as the "mother of us all."
End Quote

No it is not symbolic it is God's House in Heaven it is a very real place. Hear Jesus words

Jn 14: 2: In my Father's house are many mansions: IF IT WERE NOT SO, I WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU. I go to prepare a place for you.

Rev 21: 3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

I see Holy Jerusalem in a much different light you see it as a figurative place or a spiritual place and until it comes it is because what we have now is just a shadow of what is to come.

Well what is to come is a city that is about 1,000 square miles.

21:16and the city lieth square, and the length of it is as great as the breadth; and he did measure the city with the reed -- furlongs twelve thousand; the length, and the breadth, and the height, of it are equal;

Now why on Earth would they give measurements for a spiritual place.

Now let us look at your example of gate in the Bible saying the Gate is Jesus

I do not see it saying that at all what it says is Narrow is the path of a Righteous man he does not partake of all the evils of society he does not steal or lie or live for profit and wide is the path to destruction this path you can allow any behaviour as we see so prevalent today..

12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I think you are using that verse out of Context

Jesus is indeed the door but there is no mention of a door in fact in Rev we are told the Gate never shuts gates typically go on the outside of the door.

25: And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

I see us as Sons of the Living God.

Jesus sacrifice on the cross is the act that gives him the right to sit at the right hand of The Father just as it gives him the right to open the seals and tell us the Future. Jesus is the Husband…………. Holy Jerusalem is his Bride. The city will be adorned with the

8: And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9: And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

We adorn the city what does it mean to adorn ………well people adorn their Christmas Trees so adorned means to hang on or around to make look beautiful.

But we are called to the wedding Feast the Bride does not have to be called to the wedding feast only the Guests do.

I still do not see it to me it is very clear Holy Jerusalem which is God's Dwelling in Heaven is the Bride and we are Guests invited to the Wedding.

True Paul uses Marriage as an analogy for what our loyalties should be in regard to other Gods. We should be pure as a virgin.

But to say we are the Bride is to contradict other parts of the Bible and Jesus very plain words. We must see Paul's words in light of Jesus words not the other way around. This Truth brings harmony to scripture where the other understanding brings contradiction.

studyhound

January 8th 2004, 07:03 PM

Just The Facts:
Hi

My view on this is to follow the WORD............THE LAMB...................... Not doctrines of Men

Like Paul, John, James, ect?

When Paul is speaking in both of these cases he is using an analogy to explain how we should be total devoted and loyal to Christ. As a Wife is to her Husband.

Agreed but that is because we (the church) are his chosen, his wife, in the same way that Israel was called God’s wife in the Old Testament. Isa 54:6

2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Here is Holy Jerusalem it is the Bride.

Well what is Holy Jerusalem is it the Church.

Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Well how can the church be the holy city and enter into itself through the gate. It can not

When a person enters in to the kingdom of God he has left the world and entered the church. Remember the church is both the collection of believers Gal 1:13 and the mother of us all Gal 4:26. So to enter is symbolic of salvation, we enter in the Jerusalem from above Gal 4:26, the heavenly Jerusalem Heb 12:22.

3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Does God not already dwell with us? 1Co 3:16 1Co 6:19, but just in case you do not take Paul’s word for it how ‘bout Jesus

Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

Holy Jerusalem is Gods Tent or House in heaven

14:2 In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

God’s dwelling place is with his people God will make his home in us. Further down the in the chapter Jesus says:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

7: He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON.

Well I think that is very plain we are sons

What are we? Well according to Christ, we are salt, light, sheep, and a city on a hill (a city!!! Just like in Revelation . . . huh a coincidence? I think not.)

To use Paul's analogy to discard Jesus very plain words is folly and leads to false doctrines.

Again I ask does scripture, the collected inspired writings of the Holy Spirit contradict itself

:studyhound:

Reader

January 8th 2004, 07:13 PM

Just The Facts:

Hi reader

That was well presented. And I can see from your Post you are a Post mil believer perhaps even a preterist.

Thank you. I hold to the amillennial position.

SOOOOOO

9: And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE.10: And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Read a little further . . .

Who are we told will inhabit the holy city? . . .

" The nations of those who are saved shall walk in the light of it." Rev. 21:24

These are the souls who have been brought into the kingdom of heaven and united as one with God. The words, "city," "New Jerusalem," "Lamb," "bride," and wife," are all symbols to describe the consummation of the everlasting reconciliation between men and God.

Next you say

Quote
First, the heavenly Jerusalem is symbolic as the "mother of us all."

No it is not symbolic it is God's House in Heaven it is a very real place. Hear Jesus words

Jn 14: 2: In my Father's house are many mansions: IF IT WERE NOT SO, I WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU. I go to prepare a place for you.

I agree that the kingdom of God is an actual place, but the language used to describe heaven is often symbolic and figurative. Saints are the offspring of God, symbolized as coming from above; from the "New Jerusalem," which is a figurative name for the dwelling place of God. In other words, the actual "holy city" of God did not give birth to Christians, but the heavenly Jerusalem is figuratively said to be "the mother of us all." Galatians 4:26

My point being, we learn from such figurative and symbolic language, the depths of Godly knowledge and promise, but we can not interpret these things in a strictly literal sense. These are spiritual realities conveyed to us in earthly language; things of God which eye has not seen nor ear heard.

Well what is to come is a city that is about 1,000 square miles.

21:16and the city lieth square, and the length of it is as great as the breadth; and he did measure the city with the reed -- furlongs twelve thousand; the length, and the breadth, and the height, of it are equal;

Now why on Earth would they give measurements for a spiritual place.

The measurements cannot be taken literally, any more than the 1000 years of Rev. 20:4-6 can be understood literally.

Now let us look at your example of gate in the Bible saying the Gate is Jesus

I didn't say Jesus was the "gate." I said the Gospel is the "gate" into the "holy city."

12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Amen.

Jesus is indeed the door but there is no mention of a door in fact in Rev we are told the Gate never shuts gates typically go on the outside of the door.

Again, I was just calling your attention to the fact that different language is often used in Scripture to convey the same information. There is a means of access into the kingdom of God, both through the Gospel of Jesus Christ (gate) and the Person of Jesus Christ (door). Both words and teachings are symbolic of the same literal truth. The only access to the "holy city," (or the marriage supper of the Lamb and union with God), is by faith in Jesus Christ.

I see us as Sons of the Living God.

I agree.

Jesus is the Husband…………. Holy Jerusalem is his Bride.

The New Jerusalem is where saved souls will dwell as one with God forever. The city is not a bride; her inhabitants are depicted as a bride and the Lamb as husband, because of the reconciliation and union between an elect and saved humanity and God.

But we are called to the wedding Feast the Bride does not have to be called to the wedding feast only the Guests do.

I disagree. The elect are called by the Holy Spirit to spiritual union with God.

". . Whom He predestined, these He also called . . ." Romans 8:30a

I still do not see it to me it is very clear Holy Jerusalem which is God's Dwelling in Heaven is the Bride and we are Guests invited to the Wedding.

The heavenly Jerusalem is not the bride of God; it is the realm where God dwells. It is those elect, called and justified by God, who are brought into the "holy city" by Christ. These are the persons who will become one with God.

The words "bride" and "husband" only depict the eternal and spiritual union of God and elect humanity that will last forever in the kingdom of heaven.

Just The Facts

January 8th 2004, 08:19 PM

Hi reader

I wish to say that when I use THE CAPS LOCK I am not yelling at you with me just think of it as me being to lazy to do the VB bold thing

Yes as I am pre and you are post we see things different.

You see Satan as restrained and the Nations as not deceived I see them as Deceived. In fact I see Mainstream Christianity as deceived as does revelation.

I am not a Futurist per say I am more of a continualist not a very well know group I guess. God leaves no gap in the prophetic timeline if you will until all is accomplished which is Judgement day the words of the Prophets have yet to be fulfilled.

This being True God promised not to do anything without telling us before he does it.

7: Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

I see Revelation 12 and 13 covering a period from before Jesus Birth to the very end in a full sense.

I see the First Beast as Rome and the Second the Church State of Constantine.

The Image as the Roman Catholic Church

I then see where Rev 13 leaves off as The Start of Rev 17:

but I Digress.

I see Holy Jerusalem as actually coming out of heaven and landing for lack of a better word ontop of what we would call greater Zion.

This is the First Resurrection From there Jesus and the Saints will rule the Nations for a thousand years.

The Fallen Angles are cast into the Lake of Fire and Satan is thrown in the Pit for a 1,000 years.

I am guessing that you see Nero or some other Roman Emperor as the Beast. This is not True unless you believe Nero was a fallen Angel as the Beast of Rev 17 is Very clearly a Fallen Angel.

Quote
Read a little further . . .

Who are we told will inhabit the holy city? ..

" The nations of those who are saved shall walk in the light of it." Rev. 21:24
End Quote

It is not Nations that inhabit the city it is the Saints that inhabit the city and RULE the Nations.

I place these two verse at the same time Do you?

15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
…………………19: And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army………………..21: And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

See I see Holy Jerusalem actual coming out of heaven and starting a literal 1,000 years of peace where there are no armies no wars. One of the Sins of the Beast was he Taught mankind war and the cries of the murdered rose up to the Throne of God.

So to put an end to these lies and heal the Nations is part of the plan.

Back to Rev

Rv:22:2: In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The beginning of the act of the Fallen Angels was to corrupt mankind because of this corruption the tree of life or eternal life is removed.

22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

At the end when the Fallen Angels (the Beast) is cast into the lake of fire and Satan who deceived him is Bound for a 1,000 years the Lie of War and weapons and armies and Honour in Murder will be taught no more.

Quote
The city is not a bride;
End Quote

This is statement contradicts the word of God

9: And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.10: And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

If you are asking me to believe you over these very plain words of Jesus I can not.

I think if you understand the Overall picture and the Sin in the Garden that brought us to here then you will see That I speak the Truth.

Reader

January 8th 2004, 09:09 PM

Just The Facts:

You see Satan as restrained and the Nations as not deceived

Not quite.

Ungodly men from all nations will continue in unbelief and bondage to Satan; believing his lies, but a remnant from all the nations will be freed by faith in God's Gospel truth, and thus Satan is bound from deceiving them.

When the Gospel is silenced, Satan will be loosed to utterly deceive the nations for a short time just prior to Judgment Day (Rev. 20:7&8)

I am guessing that you see Nero or some other Roman Emperor as the Beast. This is not True unless you believe Nero was a fallen Angel as the Beast of Rev 17 is Very clearly a Fallen Angel.

No, I see Nero as a type of antiChrist, but the beast of Rev. Chapter 17 a product of Satan; ungodly, false, spiritual power.

It is not Nations that inhabit the city it is the Saints that inhabit the city

Agreed. Saints from out of all the nations.

and RULE the Nations.

Since I believe that the "holy city" comes after Judgment Day, I do not believe there will be any secular nations for the saints to rule.

I place these two verse at the same time Do you?

15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev. 19:15 = Gospel Age

…………………19: And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army

Rev. 19:19 = Great Tribulation

………………..21: And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev. 19:21 = Judgment Day

4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Micah 4:3 = Everlasting Kingdom of Heaven

Rv:22:2: In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Rev. 22:2 = Everlasting Kingdom of Heaven

22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Genesis 3:22 = God separating from sinful mankind.

At the end when the Fallen Angels (the Beast) is cast into the lake of fire and Satan who deceived him is Bound for a 1,000 years the Lie of War and weapons and armies and Honour in Murder will be taught no more.

(Ungodly powers) Rev. 20:9&10 = Judgment Day

(1000 years) Rev. 20:1-3 = Satan bound by Gospel

(No wars)Micah 4:3 = Everlasting Kingdom of Heaven

(Note: I think it would be more helpful to the other readers if you would always present entire Scripture references, chapter and verse.) :smile:

EdJones

January 8th 2004, 09:15 PM

Those saved during the Church age. (me)