about Eden

[TorchofGod]

I was reading Genesis again the other day. As always , I keep wondering where Eden was. I would say it was lost inthe flood except that the language seems to indicate that the writer was speakign of a places that could identify where it was.
Genesis 2:11
The name of the first [is] Pison: that [is] it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where [there is] gold;

Genesis 2:12
And the gold of that land [is] good: there [is] bdellium and the onyx stone.

Genesis 2:13
And the name of the second river [is] Gihon: the same [is] it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

Genesis 2:14
And the name of the third river [is] Hiddekel: that [is] it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river [is] Euphrates.
So my question then would be, if it was not buried in the flood where was it? I found some old maps of eurasia on the net but they were not too clear and not much help. I also noticed this thime I read Genesis 2 that the garden was in Eden, not Eden but in it.That makes me wonder about the rivers that came from the garden.
Genesis 2:10
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

there was one river, which watered the garden.After the garden it split.
I know some beleive Eden was iraq, but I wondr?One river encompased africa I thin k. So I guess what i want os s ome help answering my curiosity.WAs the wirter talkingof somethignthat existed in his day? if so then we should be able to clearly find Eden. What are the modern names of the rivers Gihon and Hiddekel? Those two rivers frustrate me. Finally, what does archeological evidence show concerning where Eden was and so on?
I sure hope these questions made sense.

[Socrates]

Today @ 04:42 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=370949#post370949)
TorchofGod:

I was reading Genesis again the other day. As always , I keep wondering where Eden was. I would say it was lost in the flood

That's right. Augustine and Luther realised this.

except that the language seems to indicate that the writer was speakign of a places that could identify where it was.

Perhaps so. But don't forget that the original writer was probably not Moses but maybe Adam himself, while Moses was the editor of pre-existing tablets. Supporting evidence is the many editorial comments (e.g. Gen. 26:33, 32:32). Sometimes the ancient tablets were left alone, e.g. 10:19 where directions are matter-of-factly given to Sodom, a city long destroyed and under the Dead Sea by Moses' time.

Genesis 2:10
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.there was one river, which watered the garden.After the garden it split.
I know some beleive Eden was iraq, but I wonder?

It's obvious that the description of Eden is not Mesopotamia, because this doesn't have one river breaking into four, or a river going from there and flowing into Cush (Ethiopia) or modern-day or Sudan. The pre-Flood rivers were buried under thousands of feed of Flood sediments, so we have no idea where Eden was.

The correct explanation can be shown by recent history of emigration. New towns established by British settlers in North America, Australia and New Zealand were frequently assigned names that were familiar place-names in the land they had left; e.g. Liverpool, Hamilton, Oxford, Sheffield, Newcastle and Brighton. Similarly, features in the post-Flood world were given names familiar to those who survived the Flood.

[JohnStevenson]

[i]It's obvious that the description of Eden is not Mesopotamia, because this doesn't have one river breaking into four, or a river going from there and flowing into Cush (Ethiopia) or modern-day or Sudan
Rivers do not normally (if ever) break into four heads and flow in four different directions except in the case of a Delta such as the Nile. This could also have been descriptive of the area where the Tigris and the Euphrates flow into the Persian Gulf. Furthermore, we read that the Pishon "flows around the whole land of Havilah."

Havilah is a reference to lands in northern Arabia where the descendants of Ishmael made their homes (Genesis 25:18).

In the 1990's, Boston University scientist Farouk El-Baz used photos from satellites orbiting the earth and space Shuttle Imaging Radar to locate an underground river which now runs under a portion of the desert of Saudi Arabia (James A. Sauer, "The River Runs Dry," Biblical Archaeology Review, Vol. 22, No. 4, July/August 1996, pp. 52-54, 57, 64 and Molly Dewsnap, "The Kuwait River," Biblical Archaeology Review, Vol. 22, No. 4, July/August 1996, p. 55.).

In Kuwait, a dry riverbed (Wadi Al-Batin) cuts through limestone and appears to disappear into the desert of Saudi Arabia. Actually, the river ran underground along a fault line under the sand. From the Hyaz Mountains in Saudi Arabia, this river carried granite and basalt pebbles 650 miles northeast to deposit them at its delta in Kuwait near the Persian Gulf.

Some have theorized that this lost river corresponds to biblical descriptions of the Pishon River. This one discovery was enough to make Sauer, the former curator of the Harvard Semitic Museum’s archaeological collections, reverse his previous skepticism regarding the historical accuracy of the Bible.

The Gihon is said to flow around the whole land of Cush (Genesis 2:13). This presents a difficulty in that Cush was the land to the south of Egypt. However, there was also an area to the east of the Tigris River which was known as Cush. If this is the case, then this could be a reference to the Karun River which flows into the Tigris and Euphrates just before they enter the Persian Gulf.

[aicko]

That's right. Augustine and Luther realised this.



Perhaps so. But don't forget that the original writer was probably not Moses but maybe Adam himself, while Moses was the editor of pre-existing tablets. Supporting evidence is the many editorial comments (e.g. Gen. 26:33, 32:32). Sometimes the ancient tablets were left alone, e.g. 10:19 where directions are matter-of-factly given to Sodom, a city long destroyed and under the Dead Sea by Moses' time.



It's obvious that the description of Eden is not Mesopotamia, because this doesn't have one river breaking into four, or a river going from there and flowing into Cush (Ethiopia) or modern-day or Sudan. The pre-Flood rivers were buried under thousands of feed of Flood sediments, so we have no idea where Eden was.

The correct explanation can be shown by recent history of emigration. New towns established by British settlers in North America, Australia and New Zealand were frequently assigned names that were familiar place-names in the land they had left; e.g. Liverpool, Hamilton, Oxford, Sheffield, Newcastle and Brighton. Similarly, features in the post-Flood world were given names familiar to those who survived the Flood.


In Genesis 32:30 Jacob say's he has seen God face to face and the place he calls "Peniel". Have you ever been directed to Gray's Anatomy book. May I suggest you look at the human brain. find the place called pineal. While there look up "Arbor Vitae" or better known in English as "Tree of life". Perhaps this may be the place you are searching for. Humm....

[christymargaret]

By aiko: In Genesis 32:30 Jacob say's he has seen God face to face and the place he calls "Peniel". Have you ever been directed to Gray's Anatomy book. May I suggest you look at the human brain. find the place called pineal. While there look up "Arbor Vitae" or better known in English as "Tree of life". Perhaps this may be the place you are searching for. Humm....

[christymargaret]

I'm sorry, aicko

[shunyadragon]

I was reading Genesis again the other day. As always , I keep wondering where Eden was. I would say it was lost inthe flood except that the language seems to indicate that the writer was speakign of a places that could identify where it was.
Genesis 2:11
The name of the first [is] Pison: that [is] it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where [there is] gold;

Genesis 2:12
And the gold of that land [is] good: there [is] bdellium and the onyx stone.

Genesis 2:13
And the name of the second river [is] Gihon: the same [is] it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

Genesis 2:14
And the name of the third river [is] Hiddekel: that [is] it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river [is] Euphrates.
So my question then would be, if it was not buried in the flood where was it? I found some old maps of eurasia on the net but they were not too clear and not much help. I also noticed this thime I read Genesis 2 that the garden was in Eden, not Eden but in it.That makes me wonder about the rivers that came from the garden.
Genesis 2:10
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

there was one river, which watered the garden.After the garden it split.
I know some beleive Eden was iraq, but I wondr?One river encompased africa I thin k. So I guess what i want os s ome help answering my curiosity.WAs the wirter talkingof somethignthat existed in his day? if so then we should be able to clearly find Eden. What are the modern names of the rivers Gihon and Hiddekel? Those two rivers frustrate me. Finally, what does archeological evidence show concerning where Eden was and so on?
I sure hope these questions made sense.In terms of archeology and paleontology the 'Garden of Eden' is Central Africa centering on the head waters of the Nile and the rift valley. This is where the greatest diversity of human ancestors is found. Our human ancestors favored grasslands. The ape ancestors favored tropical rain forests.

[markporter]

hmm, well I'm not sure whether I believe in a literal eden or not, but there's an article on the asa site if you want to have a look at it http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2000/PSCF3-00Hill.html

[learning]

David Rohl had a web page about Eden that was really good, where it was up in the mountains of Turkey somewhere, he had a way of showing four rivers that started in this area, and the Tigris and Euphrates seem to come from there. I don't think that web page is available anymore, but it was interesting to read.

[learning]

Hey Mark, that's a pretty good link. I remember looking up the Pishon river, cause it said something about gold being found around there, but then found that some British explorer found gold in the area of the Pishon river years ago.

I was looking at a north American Indian magazine once in a book store, and they had something about the garden of Eden being around Lake Superior! Who knows where it was, but the Bible states things about the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, so I think it is somehow connected to them. It's just the other two rivers that are a mystery at times. David Rohl had a way of showing how the letters can be changed so that the rivers he found at the top of the Mesopotamia area fit, and some of the land around there fit too, in that some of it was called the 'land of Nod' etc. (as it goes on to talk about Cain going to live there in Genesis.)

[markporter]

Oh, the other thing which I should have pointed out is Genesis 3:24 which might seem to imply that the Garden of Eden is not a place which is meant to geographically accessible to the readers...

[JohnStevenson]

I just spent the better part of a week with OT Professor Richard Pratt from Reformed Theological Seminary -- his spin (an one held by a number of ancient Jewish scholars) was that Eden was at the site of Jerusalem. As such, it was "the mountain of God." This was seen as the one place that is at the center of the world.

Not sure that I buy it, but it is an interesting theory nevertheless.

[mikeledo]

The Garden of Eden story it based on the historical location of Dilmun, known as “the land of Eternal Life.”



The Sumerians (Sumerian/Babylonian/Assyrian will basically refer to the same continuous culture of that region) had numerous myths dealing with a place called Dilmun. Just what and where was Dilmun? There seems to have been two such places in Sumerian literature, just as in the Bible. There was an astral paradise-like place and a real geographic local that traded with and paid tribute to various Mesopotamian lands. Most scholars now identify Dilmun with the land of Bahrain.

The myth "Enki and Ninhursag" gives a good description of the land:

"Pure was Dilmun land!
Virginal was Dilmun land!

The lion slew not,
the wolf was not
carrying off lambs,

No eye-diseases said there:
'I the eye-disease.'

No headache said there:
'I headache.'

No old woman belonging to it said there:
'I old woman.'

No old man belonging to it said there:
'I old man.' "




In other words everyone lived forever.

Now let’s compare this with the Biblical Eden:


A garden was planted in the east, in Eden. Paradise-Dilmun was also in the east. Similarity.
Man was put in the Garden of Eden. In Sumeria Gods played in the Garden.
Eden was full of all kinds of trees. Dilmun was the home of aromatics and cedar.
Dilmun was a paradise with no disease or aging. This is similar to Eden according to Josephus in the "Antiquities of the Jews".
(A bit of irony: I obtained this list of similarities off a Christian web page which was attempting to prove Eden was not based on a Babylonian myth,)

Archeological digs of Saar, Bahrain (Dilmun) revealed an earthly paradise of many trees as fresh water bubbled up from the ground. Palm tress with dates grew without effort. The town was abandoned about 17th century B.C.E. perhaps due to a change in the water supply.

[A Beautiful Truth]

When I hear arguments like this (that the Bible has borrowed myths) I wonder why it is assumed that it was the Hebrews who did the borrowing?

Please explain.

~Charleen

[mikeledo]

When I hear arguments like this (that the Bible has borrowed myths) I wonder why it is assumed that it was the Hebrews who did the borrowing?

Please explain.

~Charleen
The reason why Hebrews are said to do the borrowing is that traditionally the Bible or OT stories are dated to an Iron Age period (800-1100BCE) whereas other myths or stories date hundreds or a thousand years earlier. We assume the Flintstones borrowed their story line from the Honeymooners and not the other way around because the Honeymooners existed first.

In my latest work I contend the basic book for the OT was written circa 2218 BCE. It compares favorably to the Babylonian texts of that era- most are given a circa 2400 BCE date. What this would mean is that the later Ugarit texts and Greek myths would have borrowed FROM the Bible. However modern scholarship is not yet on board with my work as it is not even published.

The period of the first draft has the Great Famine as its core background. This event caused many myths to arise also in Egypt at the same time as in Jerusalem. The myths are different but certain historical events show through.

[A Beautiful Truth]

The reason why Hebrews are said to do the borrowing is that traditionally the Bible or OT stories are dated to an Iron Age period (800-1100BCE) whereas other myths or stories date hundreds or a thousand years earlier.

Is it not an appeal to ignorance to assume that because one myth was written before another that it actually came first? Did not the Hebrews have an excellent oral tradition?

The period of the first draft has the Great Famine as its core background. This event caused many myths to arise also in Egypt at the same time as in Jerusalem. The myths are different but certain historical events show through.

This is interesting, please explain.

[mikeledo]

Is it not an appeal to ignorance to assume that because one myth was written before another that it actually came first? Did not the Hebrews have an excellent oral tradition?



This is interesting, please explain.
The OT stories were considered written at the same time (first 5 books anyway). Among those tales is the conquest of various cities, including Heshbon by Moses. This city didn't exist until the Iron Age making the oral tradition argument void of an earlier time period. There are also other Iron Age cities which crop up.

The Great Famine lasted for about 150 years. This famine drove Joseph and his family into Egypt as it did many foreigners. Eventually the Nile would turn to "blood" and the famine would strike Egypt with anarchy and chaos. The pharaoh of Egypt was Pepi II. He ruled from age 6 to age 100. This was also the first pharaoh of Moses (ignore that 400 year add on). The Midrash also claims this pharaoh ruled from age 6 to 100. This is the ONLY pharaoh in all of Egypt that did this-by no coincidence.

The famine also accounted for the story of Hathor's attempt to destroy the world and Kore's attempt also. It created myths. Hathor wanted to destroy mankind. Osirus found out about the plan and turned the river into red beer laced with mandrake. Hathor drank and became drunk. She failed to destroy mankind. This time period caused many to doubt their faith. It was an "eat drink and ne merry- for tomorrow we die society."

The famine came at or caused EB III. This was a period of unique lamps throughout the Middle East. Because the olive trees had died, a different style lamp was used to burn other oils. This lamp was used from 2300 BCE all over the region and suddenly its use was stopped about 2000 BCE. This makes this key period easy to date archaelogically. The walls of Jericho fell during this period also. The pottery matched the C-14 dating.

Because of the famine Egypt fell as an empire into anarchy and Babylon rose to power. This just happened to be about the same period of the new world age of Aries. Babylon, Assyria, and the Amorites all were reprented by the Aries, while Egypt was represented by Taurus- the old World Age.

There was a movement or desire to stay with Egypt, but timed moved on. In the Egyptian astrology this was represented by the leg of the bull chained to the pole star. In the Bible it was the worship of the golden calf and desire of the people to return to Egypt. Moses pressed on into Aries- we must worship the lamb (Aries) of God.

[Socratism]

The reason why Hebrews are said to do the borrowing is that traditionally the Bible or OT stories are dated to an Iron Age period (800-1100BCE) whereas other myths or stories date hundreds or a thousand years earlier. We assume the Flintstones borrowed their story line from the Honeymooners and not the other way around because the Honeymooners existed first.

"Tradition" is important, but not always precise.

In my latest work I contend the basic book for the OT was written circa 2218 BCE. It compares favorably to the Babylonian texts of that era- most are given a circa 2400 BCE date. What this would mean is that the later Ugarit texts and Greek myths would have borrowed FROM the Bible. However modern scholarship is not yet on board with my work as it is not even published.

Have you considered the possibility that Genesis was written by eyewitnesses to the events described, and that Moses only compiled a number of these accounts into the document known today as Genesis?

http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

This would make much of Genesis to be written prior to the Babylonian texts and would explain why the latter are more mythological than is Genesis.

[mikeledo]

"Tradition" is important, but not always precise.


Have you considered the possibility that Genesis was written by eyewitnesses to the events described, and that Moses only compiled a number of these accounts into the document known today as Genesis?

http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

This would make much of Genesis to be written prior to the Babylonian texts and would explain why the latter are more mythological than is Genesis.
Parts of the original text (the end part) would have been written by eye-witness accounts. In fact there may be some real history in the David/Solomon stories. The original text spans several generations with a history that could be 500 to 1000 years long. Moses or his real life counterpart- King Sargon I, would have been dead.

Moses is a composite character based partly on Sargon who like Moses floated down a river in a basket as a baby and conquered the Amorites. While there was a conquest and some population migrations, the story of the Exodus, parting of the seas etc. would be something that would have been considered a history of the heavens and not the earth. It is based primarily on the constellation of Eridanus which starts as the Nile and turns into the Red Sea after the Paw of Cetus or hand of God which pushed back the armies of the pharoah. Cetus is the great waste land Moses entered. The 40 year number was later added. 40 years designates a constellation cycle. It is an astrologers note. The star Miri represented Mt. Sinai- a real live earth place. Miri is an oscillating star and appears at only certain times. This is why God was on Sinai only at certain times.

The real composer would have lived circa 2218 BCE. I suggest it was a Canaanite priest in Jerusalem who was knowledgeable of Babylonian history, myth, astrology, and current events.

There are real events- there was a flood (local), Sodom and Gommorrah did exist. Dilmun was Eden. There was a great famine. Babylonians migrated to Judea as did Abraham. Egypt was plagued (as was the most of the world). Many of the cities named in the conquests of Moses and Joshua fell. Abimelek and Jothom are based on real people.

I would contend many details in the stories are fictional and reflect astrology or history of the heavens as the Bible terms it.

[A Beautiful Truth]

The OT stories were considered written at the same time (first 5 books anyway).

But written does not mean that the stories were "made" then, surely we have oral tradition that would be the basis of some of the stories.

Among those tales is the conquest of various cities, including Heshbon by Moses. This city didn't exist until the Iron Age making the oral tradition argument void of an earlier time period.

Well, when I speak of oral tradition, I am referring to the stories of earlier times in Genesis. Why could Moses not have used both oral tradition and what he witnessed at the time? It does not have to be either/or, does it?


The Great Famine lasted for about 150 years. This famine drove Joseph and his family into Egypt as it did many foreigners. Eventually the Nile would turn to "blood" and the famine would strike Egypt with anarchy and chaos. The pharaoh of Egypt was Pepi II. He ruled from age 6 to age 100. This was also the first pharaoh of Moses (ignore that 400 year add on). The Midrash also claims this pharaoh ruled from age 6 to 100. This is the ONLY pharaoh in all of Egypt that did this-by no coincidence.

So you are saying that two sources say Pepi II was the Pharoah during the time. I have not studied this much, what important thing do we understand from this knowledge concerning the Bible?

The famine came at or caused EB III. This was a period of unique lamps throughout the Middle East. Because the olive trees had died, a different style lamp was used to burn other oils. This lamp was used from 2300 BCE all over the region and suddenly its use was stopped about 2000 BCE. This makes this key period easy to date archaelogically. The walls of Jericho fell during this period also. The pottery matched the C-14 dating.

Neat...what does it mean?

Because of the famine Egypt fell as an empire into anarchy and Babylon rose to power. This just happened to be about the same period of the new world age of Aries. Babylon, Assyria, and the Amorites all were reprented by the Aries, while Egypt was represented by Taurus- the old World Age.

There was a movement or desire to stay with Egypt, but timed moved on. In the Egyptian astrology this was represented by the leg of the bull chained to the pole star. In the Bible it was the worship of the golden calf and desire of the people to return to Egypt. Moses pressed on into Aries- we must worship the lamb (Aries) of God.

I admit that I am new to the archeology forum, and had not read your posts before. So you are saying that much of the first five books of the Bible are really borrowed myths based on astrology? Well, that is interesting, are you the developer of this hypothesis? You have written books? What do your peers say?

[Socratism]

Parts of the original text (the end part) would have been written by eye-witness accounts. In fact there may be some real history in the David/Solomon stories. The original text spans several generations with a history that could be 500 to 1000 years long. Moses or his real life counterpart- King Sargon I, would have been dead.

Moses is a composite character based partly on Sargon who like Moses floated down a river in a basket as a baby and conquered the Amorites. While there was a conquest and some population migrations, the story of the Exodus, parting of the seas etc. would be something that would have been considered a history of the heavens and not the earth. It is based primarily on the constellation of Eridanus which starts as the Nile and turns into the Red Sea after the Paw of Cetus or hand of God which pushed back the armies of the pharoah. Cetus is the great waste land Moses entered. The 40 year number was later added. 40 years designates a constellation cycle. It is an astrologers note. The star Miri represented Mt. Sinai- a real live earth place. Miri is an oscillating star and appears at only certain times. This is why God was on Sinai only at certain times.

The real composer would have lived circa 2218 BCE. I suggest it was a Canaanite priest in Jerusalem who was knowledgeable of Babylonian history, myth, astrology, and current events.

There are real events- there was a flood (local), Sodom and Gommorrah did exist. Dilmun was Eden. There was a great famine. Babylonians migrated to Judea as did Abraham. Egypt was plagued (as was the most of the world). Many of the cities named in the conquests of Moses and Joshua fell. Abimelek and Jothom are based on real people.

I would contend many details in the stories are fictional and reflect astrology or history of the heavens as the Bible terms it.

You are welcome to your own hypotheses, but you never answered my question regarding Moses as a compiler instead of the author of the Genesis historical narratives.

http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

[mikeledo]

[QUOTE=



I admit that I am new to the archeology forum, and had not read your posts before. So you are saying that much of the first five books of the Bible are really borrowed myths based on astrology? Well, that is interesting, are you the developer of this hypothesis? You have written books? What do your peers say?[/QUOTE]
I have written a detailed book on the matter still unpublished. I compare the ancient or Arabic name of the stars and their stories surrounding the constellations and compare it to the meaning of place names and people in the OT in the original Hebrew. What I got was a pattern which flowed from one star to the next, and from one constellation to the next without any unjustified leaps or jumps.

Seacoast areas were zodiac constellations. Hills were in the heads of zodiac constellation or in second tier constellations. Mountains and towers were at the top of the constellations.

Three people so far have read by entire book- admittedly they were all athesits- but held tradition views of Biblical authorship. They are now in my camp due to the "overwhelming" amount of information I present.

I also show how stories were added- an editorial technique not yet discovered. I shoe explain why they were added- many stories were added after the change in the World Age from Taurus to Aries. This changed the cardinal points. The additions fit the pattern.

Likewise Midrashes written circa 200 BCE to 200 AD demonstrate the Rabbis still had specific knowledge concerning the meaning of the texts. Their explanations which on occasion mimic Greek Myths coincide with the Greek story of the constellation.

Egypt has a similar pattern and usage of the constellations- although theirs is more complex because if is older and encompasses yet another World Age. They craeted new gods to take the place of the old gods, but kept the old gods and their traditions.

The book of Matthew follows an astrological pattern. It also includes an inn in the birth narrative- which was a Roman influence.

Virgin births are astrological- which is why so many cultures had stories about them. There are also some OT texts whose meaning is unknown or questionable and are mistranslated because of it so that it makes sense. These texts in the original Hebrew with a simple translation make sense when compared to astrology/astronomy.

Everything ties in so neatly. All the archaelogical anomolies that exist in Biblical chronology go away. There are several Chrsitian groups that endorse the idea that the Bible is written in the stars. I have used the work of E.X. Bullinger "Witness to the Stars" because he was the first one to do a serious study, although I have found his work slightly flawed.

[mikeledo]

You are welcome to your own hypotheses, but you never answered my question regarding Moses as a compiler instead of the author of the Genesis historical narratives.

http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html
When I claim Moses was a composite character- I mean to say there was no Moses in the sense that you mean.

[A Beautiful Truth]

Mikeledo,

What do you say of the Bible Code? Sometimes when you look for patterns you end up finding them. How would you compare the mentality of your work to the mentality of those who believe there is a Bible Code?

Also, you have submitted your work to liberal Bible historians, have you thought of submitting it to conservatives as well who might actually give you a serious critique? I'm sure those guys at Biola University would help you.

~Charleen

[mikeledo]

Mikeledo,

What do you say of the Bible Code? Sometimes when you look for patterns you end up finding them. How would you compare the mentality of your work to the mentality of those who believe there is a Bible Code?

Also, you have submitted your work to liberal Bible historians, have you thought of submitting it to conservatives as well who might actually give you a serious critique? I'm sure those guys at Biola University would help you.

~Charleen
Bible Code- there are encoded in the Bible certain words which we can tell by statistical data. For instance (I forget the real numbers and do not have them at hand) there are predicted 18 "Joshuas" in a certain book that would occur naturally. However lets say the book contains 27 Joshuas a number that way exceeds the the probability. This would indicate the additions were done on purpose. This type of knowledge is not new. The Bible Code used to "predict" the future is coincedental at best. As of yet no one has been able to predict future events using the code- it has all been 20-20 hindsight and within the statitiscal probability. My work is supported by Hebrew writings and their temples which had zodiac mosaics on the floors.

I have attempted to contact via e-mail several top named individuals about this theory hoping to get a PhD to tell me where I am wrong or give approval. Richard Elliot Friedman never responsed nor did several others. I have tried many publishers and agents to no avail. No matter how you tell the basic outline of the thesis whenever you say astrology and the Bible in the same text people respond to you like Lazlo Toth.

There are people who combine astrology and the Bible, however their ideas are kooky, however they are positive about my work (from the few I have had contact with) because it supports many of their ideas.

I have almost a Kabblah belief about how the Bible was written and constructed without the faith to go with it.

Currently my old publisher has consented to print the book in their own good time. I am not too excited about sharing my work until the book is out and copyrighted.

This was not a pettern I was searching for when I started to write my book. I thought some stories of the Bible had an astrologiocal meaning behind them, but that meaning was only secondary.What I never expected was to find was that the Bible was written as a "story book" of the constellations combining real history with the stars. I never wanted to place the writing in the Early Bronze Age. This gave me problems when I made the discovery. I had a bevy of anachronisms that I had to deal with. Since I am NOT an apologists I relied on what archaelogy claims about dating and the prevailing history. Knowing what I had to cut out allowed me to discover an editing pattern used to insert material. The original text starts with Gen. 2:4 with Adam as Leo and ends with the crowning of Solomon in the Southern Crown. What scholars call the "Book of J" I found out was way improperly edited.

Once I had the time set according to the astrological cardinal points- I looked at the history of that era and found that the story was a parallel of Babylonian myth and history. Everything neatly came together- so neat in fact it scared me.

It was weird doing the research once I realized what I had. I felt as if the ancient writer of the text wanted to finally be discovered and was leading me in certain directions-like a Vulcan mind meld. I personally don't assign anything supernatural to the feeling-while others might.

[A Beautiful Truth]

I have almost a Kabblah belief about how the Bible was written and constructed without the faith to go with it.

Have you submitted your work to rabbis?

What I never expected was to find was that the Bible was written as a "story book" of the constellations combining real history with the stars.

So you are saying there is real history but it was not arranged on a historical basis, but with the constellations? But this would be amazing consistency for all the authors, would it not?

What scholars call the "Book of J" I found out was way improperly edited.

As you know, mikeledo, peer review is so important. I encourage you to press on and get review, including review by conservative scholars.

Once I had the time set according to the astrological cardinal points- I looked at the history of that era and found that the story was a parallel of Babylonian myth and history. Everything neatly came together- so neat in fact it scared me.

And how much rearranging of the improperly edited material did you have to fix?

It was weird doing the research once I realized what I had. I felt as if the ancient writer of the text wanted to finally be discovered and was leading me in certain directions-like a Vulcan mind meld. I personally don't assign anything supernatural to the feeling-while others might.

Very interesting, mikeledo. I encourage you to put it up to the test as any scientific theory should be. You have obviously spent a lot of time on this, it is important that you follow through and go only where objectivity leads.

[mikeledo]

QUOTE=Charleen Lohman]Have you submitted your work to rabbis?


No. I would like to discuss it with a liberal Hebrew scholar.



So you are saying there is real history but it was not arranged on a historical basis, but with the constellations? But this would be amazing consistency for all the authors, would it not?

It would indeed. There are of course Bible texts that have nothing to do with astrology such as the laws and later texts of Kings, Chronicals etc. However the main text had additions made to it which were meant to be astrological. There is a consistancy in their work, but not an absolute one as one might expect. There seems to have been a disagreement of a constellation cycle. One constellation equals about 40 years of time- however a complete cycle varies between 400, 480 and 560 years. There is common ground, but not absolute agreement. What makes it interesting is that the texts were considered to be an authority so rather than eliminate something that was inappropiate for the current age, they made additions. For instance in the original text David was not punished for his sacrifice of Uriah. Abraham did not attempt to save Sodom etc. In the same token negative stories were added such as Lot sleeping with his daughters and Abraham pimping his wife to the pharaoh.



As you know, mikeledo, peer review is so important. I encourage you to press on and get review, including review by conservative scholars.

I am looking for scholars to review my work. I pretty much know what the conservative scholar will say- their mind is made up.



And how much rearranging of the improperly edited material did you have to fix?

A bunch. The name Eve had to be deleted. The loading of the animals, the world wide flood and landing on Ararat- gone. Tower of Babylon and Nimrod- gone. Abraham's episode in Sodom, Egypt, Ishmael etc. -gone. A lot of Judges had to go which would be no surprise. Doublet stories in Joshua were eliminated. Much of the interaction between saul and David was wiped out including Saul's family. David had one wife and one child. I also had to add to the book of J many priestly lines, a few R lines and even some E lines although they do not contain "elohim."

The hardest part was the elimination of certain cities. I had to research each city to see if it had existed circa 2200 BCE. On city dates to 2000 BCE. It is a toss up. The "Philistines" had to stay even though they didn't exist in this period. I researched the Hebrew word for "Philistine" and realized it represented a place (Palestine) rather than a people. It just so happens the Phoenecians lived in the same location, worshipped Dagon and had a controlling influence over Jerusalem. It fit in perfectly.



Very interesting, mikeledo. I encourage you to put it up to the test as any scientific theory should be. You have obviously spent a lot of time on this, it is important that you follow through and go only where objectivity leads.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. I follow the truth no matter where it leads.

[A Beautiful Truth]

I see. I admit I am concerned at how much needed to be discarded in order to make it work. And what was the basis for throwing so much out? What was the standard by which you judged which should stay, which should go?

BTW--its the mountain(s) of Ararat, not Ararat. And I don't think the Bible teaches a global flood at all. Look at the terminology used for the famine in Joseph's time and compare it to the flood. I simply don't think it means the globe, but rather Noah's world.

Also, there was discussion going on in Natural Sciences about Babel, what do you say of Babel? I've heard peole say it had to do with polytheism vs. monotheism but I was wondering if it was not just the division of the Semetic languages or something--what do you think?

~Charleen

[mikeledo]

I see. I admit I am concerned at how much needed to be discarded in order to make it work. And what was the basis for throwing so much out? What was the standard by which you judged which should stay, which should go?

BTW--its the mountain(s) of Ararat, not Ararat. And I don't think the Bible teaches a global flood at all. Look at the terminology used for the famine in Joseph's time and compare it to the flood. I simply don't think it means the globe, but rather Noah's world.

Also, there was discussion going on in Natural Sciences about Babel, what do you say of Babel? I've heard peole say it had to do with polytheism vs. monotheism but I was wondering if it was not just the division of the Semetic languages or something--what do you think?

~Charleen
I believe I have posted about Babel somewhere else on this forum- something about Earth divided. Yes I am aware of the Mountains of Ararat translation- I was just keeping it simple. The tower of Babel was a later insertion into the original text. People were already divided according to their tongues in the previous chapter. Astrologically the Tower would represent either Ursa Major or Ursa Minor. I can make a good case for both. It is based upon a Babylonian legend.

After the Babylonian deluge, Hasisadra built an altar on the peak of a mountain. After the flood, Babylon turned to sin. There was a revolt against the great god Anu, “king of the holy mound.” The rebels built a stronghold, but were confounded in their work. What they constructed by day was undone at night. The supreme god gave a command to make strange their speech. The basic idea was that the Tower of Babylon represented the shift in the polar star. This is supported by the Hindu legend which claims a Tree of Knowledge, located in the center of the earth grew tall to the heavens. The tree was proud that its branches protected all the people and gathered them all together. Brahma decided to punish the tree’s pride by cutting off the branches and dispersing mankind all over the surface of the earth.

There is an old Egyptian legend which claims when Shu-Anhur lifted up the paradise or park of Am-Khemen he was compelled to make use of a mound or staircase with steps in order to reach the height. According to Maspero, the mound was famous throughout Egypt. This event supposedly took place at Hermopolis, where Thoth, a moon god was lord. A figure of the mound is pictured in the Ritual illustrates it as a pyramid with seven steps known as the ladder or staircase of Shu. Shu is pictured as a man standing with arms raised, usually holding his daughter Nut (http://touregypt.net/godsofegypt/nut.htm) and standing over his son Geb (http://touregypt.net/godsofegypt/geb.htm). Shu, along with his sister Tefnut, were the first deities to be created by Atum. He is the lord of cool air and the upper sky. He was believed to be the one responsible, like Atlas, for holding up the firmament and separating it from the earth. Like the Tower of Babel, the Egyptians related the story to an actual location.

According to a Hebrew Midrash the Tower had seven staircases on the eastern side to ascend and seven on the western side to descend. (Perhaps they were using both constellations for the Tower- that would explain a lot.) From the top of the Tower, Nimrod’s men would shoot arrows in the heavens. The angels would catch them; put some blood on them for deception and toss the arrows back. The archers thought they had killed all of heaven’s inhabitants. This last part would seem to indicate they were on Ursa Major shooting at the angels on Ursa Minor.
I honestly don't think it had anything to do with languages or religion. And in looking at the Midrash it appears neither did the Jews.

[shunyadragon]

"Tradition" is important, but not always precise.


Have you considered the possibility that Genesis was written by eyewitnesses to the events described, and that Moses only compiled a number of these accounts into the document known today as Genesis?

http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

This would make much of Genesis to be written prior to the Babylonian texts and would explain why the latter are more mythological than is Genesis.
Unfortunately there is no evidence for the Biblical texts before ~250 BCE, yet there is abundent evidence for much older Babylonian texts.

[mikeledo]

Unfortunately there is no evidence for the Biblical texts before ~250 BCE, yet there is abundent evidence for much older Babylonian texts.
I would not argue with you on that point. However there is "internal evidence" which gives us an approximate date of composure due to the last event which occured in the text. There are also political situations which can help with establishing a date. I would suggest during the Greek occupation some re-works or final additions were made to existing texts, possibly giving them an appearence of being new. Once a new text is made from the "lying pen of the scribes" the old one would be discared and its record lost except for one thing....

In the case of Genesis through Solomon they never changed the wording of the original text- it is still in tact- it was added to, with the meanings sometimes reversed.

From that original text I can extrapolate a date of authorship based on both the last historical fact presented in the text and the placement of key astrological cardinal points within the text. The original text would have been during EB III. Additions were certainly made to it. It would have been altered in its first couple of centuries of existance- again toward the end of the MB age, and again in the Iron Age making the document appear to have first appeared on the scene 800-1100 BCE. I do not see internal evidence that would place the writing or re-writing of this particular text during the Greek occupational period, although I will concede it is possible- I just haven't seen anyone make a real case for it, including Thomas L. Thompson.

[shunyadragon]

I would not argue with you on that point. However there is "internal evidence" which gives us an approximate date of composure due to the last event which occured in the text. There are also political situations which can help with establishing a date. I would suggest during the Greek occupation some re-works or final additions were made to existing texts, possibly giving them an appearence of being new. Once a new text is made from the "lying pen of the scribes" the old one would be discared and its record lost except for one thing....

In the case of Genesis through Solomon they never changed the wording of the original text- it is still in tact- it was added to, with the meanings sometimes reversed.

From that original text I can extrapolate a date of authorship based on both the last historical fact presented in the text and the placement of key astrological cardinal points within the text. The original text would have been during EB III. Additions were certainly made to it. It would have been altered in its first couple of centuries of existance- again toward the end of the MB age, and again in the Iron Age making the document appear to have first appeared on the scene 800-1100 BCE. I do not see internal evidence that would place the writing or re-writing of this particular text during the Greek occupational period, although I will concede it is possible- I just haven't seen anyone make a real case for it, including Thomas L. Thompson.My case is based on the belief that the books of the Pentateuch of course did not come out of the blue and were writen or re-writen during the Greek occupational period. I consider the Pentateuch to be a compilation of different earlier texts and oral traditions created at different times. The books came together at sometime during or somewhat before the Greek occupational period when scholars had the opportunity to collect and put together these works in an attempt to preserve the traditions and writings of the past and give the people their scripture. There was motivation to create a history for the people to believe.

I do believe that there is considerable evidence that earlier versions existed in 'pieces' and the existing books are a patchwork. I also believe Babylonian and Persian legends, texts, laws and beliefs contributed to the compilation.

The internal evidence you cite does not discount 'pieces' of the books containing historical information, and of course others cantaining exagerated, created or distorted historical information.

I also believe that there may have been an effort to destroy earlier sources as I believe happened in the case of the sources of the gospels.

I have read of some researchers who have attempted to isolate and seperate different threads or 'pieces' of different historical accounts from these books. This is similar to what you appear to be doing. I do not think you need to 'toose'em', but some how seperate the different parts based on some criteria to try to understand them better. Tracing some to earlier known Babylonian and Persian sources seems to be of help.

[kofh2u]

You are welcome to your own hypotheses, but you never answered my question regarding Moses as a compiler instead of the author of the Genesis historical narratives.

http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html


hi,...

First, it can be shown that Genesis was a story that was told from memory.
The kohanim priests, Aaron's sons, used a mnemonic trick which is stll discoverable in the written text. This enabled them to tell the story in the time of Moses without needing to be literate, and with the added dramatic advantage to it circulation such a presenttion it afforded. This was one of the "plagues" upon the Egyptians during the "captivity."

Second, the other books purport to be more diary innature than a revelation given to Moses. Certainly the story of Exodus does start with a brief preliminary concerning who and where Moses can from and seems a literary contrivance, whether literally true or not, simply to begin the listing of events which certainly Moses did not have in advance. That is, the whole tale of what Moses did, even through Numbers, must have been written while they were actually happening, or immediately thereafter.

I am always taken back, wondring if the text were really read by people who say God told Moses what to write in these books. Again, with the exception of Leviticus and the Ten Commandments, God must have said, "Write your diary."

Last, I would suggest that the Torah was not from outer space, nor written in a vacuum. It incorporated many tales that were common and long preceeded itself. This assured immediate interest, as does so many of the "copy cat" shows we are subjected to ourselves. The advantage to this is it provided a proven vehicle upon which to ply the rather different message.
This was not to say that the tales were identical, in fact, they offered a completely different take on Creation, God, the human, the Flood, and the man-God relationship.

And, the spat of recent insights concerning archeological doubts as to the veracity of the details of Exodus, or doubts such as mentioned in this thread, only support certain specific and unmentioned details in the Torah.

If the criticism which questions, and doubts, the value of Torah as an authentic history or an original work, then it is the ONLY more clear what Torah IS.

The Torah is the only revealed and existant wtiting that gives us more than an insight, rather the whole of an actual ancient Mystery cult, the Hebrew Mystery, for y=that is what it is.

[mikeledo]

My case is based on the belief that the books of the Pentateuch of course did not come out of the blue and were writen or re-writen during the Greek occupational period. I consider the Pentateuch to be a compilation of different earlier texts and oral traditions created at different times. The books came together at sometime during or somewhat before the Greek occupational period when scholars had the opportunity to collect and put together these works in an attempt to preserve the traditions and writings of the past and give the people their scripture. There was motivation to create a history for the people to believe.

I do believe that there is considerable evidence that earlier versions existed in 'pieces' and the existing books are a patchwork. I also believe Babylonian and Persian legends, texts, laws and beliefs contributed to the compilation.

The internal evidence you cite does not discount 'pieces' of the books containing historical information, and of course others cantaining exagerated, created or distorted historical information.

I also believe that there may have been an effort to destroy earlier sources as I believe happened in the case of the sources of the gospels.

I have read of some researchers who have attempted to isolate and seperate different threads or 'pieces' of different historical accounts from these books. This is similar to what you appear to be doing. I do not think you need to 'toose'em', but some how seperate the different parts based on some criteria to try to understand them better. Tracing some to earlier known Babylonian and Persian sources seems to be of help.

Richard Elliot Freidman makes a very good case for an original text that starts with Genesis and extends through the crowning of Solomon in "The Hidden Book of the Bible."

Wellhausen makes a good case likewise for different "source documents." Howver in spite of that there is only a book of J which can be isolated and make a document which makes complete sense. Hence one must assume or parts of E, P, and D were used and the rest discarded. My theory supports the idea of different authors but from the viewpoint as a living document. Thus neither the basis of the works of Freidman or Wellhausen are in question, just the conclusions that are drawn from it.

Babylon had a major influence on the text- bith the original and later additions.

I differ greatly from the other researchers because I have astrological proof, textual proof and historical proof to back up my work. They all mesh together.What I have done is very unique in that I have isolated a text based on astrology, then was able to apply it to an historical era based on the astrology which happened to fit the history.

Moses, David, Solomon were all based on Babylonian kings.

[kofh2u]

Richard Elliot Freidman makes a very good case for an original text that starts with Genesis and extends through the crowning of Solomon in "The Hidden Book of the Bible."

Wellhausen makes a good case likewise for different "source documents." Howver in spite of that there is only a book of J which can be isolated and make a document which makes complete sense. Hence one must assume or parts of E, P, and D were used and the rest discarded. My theory supports the idea of different authors but from the viewpoint as a living document. Thus neither the basis of the works of Freidman or Wellhausen are in question, just the conclusions that are drawn from it.

Babylon had a major influence on the text- bith the original and later additions.

I differ greatly from the other researchers because I have astrological proof, textual proof and historical proof to back up my work. They all mesh together.What I have done is very unique in that I have isolated a text based on astrology, then was able to apply it to an historical era based on the astrology which happened to fit the history.

Moses, David, Solomon were all based on Babylonian kings.

I believe that the four sources where the only sources.

Each source was controlled by the corresponding emblematic tribe, the four tribes holding the banners of the Cherubim, Eagle (D), Ox (E), Lion (J),and Man (P).

Though we know that parts of all four sources contributed to the final canonization of Torah, @ 900 BC, it is the "living" aspect of Torah that is related to the Hebrew Astrology of Kabbalah.

And, related to the hypothesis I set forth that this "living" aspect of Torah to which you allude, plus the concept of the "Oral Language," implies that the Torah need not be written at all to be "remembered."

For instance, Genesis can be memorized by a means which is itself exposed within the present written text, a literary "contrivance" is what I mean.

Whatever connection one may discover in the field of Gentile Astrology, in regard to the Torah, it will prove to be at odds with the Kabbalah of a Hebrew Wisdom. This is confirmed in that the latter so often contrasted as superior to the former.

Roundly condemned in scripture, Gentile Astrology most certainly has elements of it incorporated in the bible. We know Daniel studied it, and excelled in the use to which he put it. We are also advised by Matthew 2, that Christ also understood this "Secret Esoteric Doctrine of Israel."

However, far from being derived from a previous source of Gentile Astrology, it was in direct opposition to a validation of Gentile Astrology. Revelation confirms the Hebrew mystery within the Word, and acknowledges its antipathy for the Gentile Art:

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal of
(scripture), and, lo, there was a great earthquake (of social change); and the Sun (signs of Astrology) became (as) black as (the) sackcloth of (a nun's) hair, and the moon became as blood (of Christ, to determine the very day of the pre-Easter Crucifixion).

Rev. 6:13 And the stars, (the twelve constellations) of heaven fell (from grace) unto the earth, (astrological worship ruined), even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs when she is (destructively) shaken of a mighty wind.

[mikeledo]

I believe that the four sources where the only sources.

Each source was controlled by the corresponding emblematic tribe, the four tribes holding the banners of the Cherubim, Eagle (D), Ox (E), Lion (J),and Man (P).

These are the four cardinal points odf the original text. Scorpio, Taurus, Leo and Aquarius.

Though we know that parts of all four sources contributed to the final canonization of Torah, @ 900 BC, it is the "living" aspect of Torah that is related to the Hebrew Astrology of Kabbalah.

And, related to the hypothesis I set forth that this "living" aspect of Torah to which you allude, plus the concept of the "Oral Language," implies that the Torah need not be written at all to be "remembered."

The Kabbalah was written in the 13th century. The meaning of the text had become lost. This was an attempt to reconstruct the original meaning.

For instance, Genesis can be memorized by a means which is itself exposed within the present written text, a literary "contrivance" is what I mean.

Whatever connection one may discover in the field of Gentile Astrology, in regard to the Torah, it will prove to be at odds with the Kabbalah of a Hebrew Wisdom. This is confirmed in that the latter so often contrasted as superior to the former.

Roundly condemned in scripture, Gentile Astrology most certainly has elements of it incorporated in the bible. We know Daniel studied it, and excelled in the use to which he put it. We are also advised by Matthew 2, that Christ also understood this "Secret Esoteric Doctrine of Israel."

Genesis also claims the stars would be for signs. Job has overt astrological references. Astrology was condemned in the text its true nature. Gnostics did the same thing. They made contradictory remarks in the text to fool outsiders. The Jews themselves openly endorsed astrology in the Babylonian Talmud and placed zodiac in their temples.

However, far from being derived from a previous source of Gentile Astrology, it was in direct opposition to a validation of Gentile Astrology. Revelation confirms the Hebrew mystery within the Word, and acknowledges its antipathy for the Gentile Art:

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal of
(scripture), and, lo, there was a great earthquake (of social change); and the Sun (signs of Astrology) became (as) black as (the) sackcloth of (a nun's) hair, and the moon became as blood (of Christ, to determine the very day of the pre-Easter Crucifixion).

Rev. 6:13 And the stars, (the twelve constellations) of heaven fell (from grace) unto the earth, (astrological worship ruined), even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs when she is (destructively) shaken of a mighty wind.

That is one interpretation. Rev chapter one descibes Jesus in an astrological sense by comparing him to 7 gods. The all knowing eyes of Zeus (Jupiter) the hair of Chronos (Saturn) the girdle about the paps -Athene (Venus) the sword of Ares (Mars) the sound of Selene (moon) The sift feet of Hermes (Mercury) and the radiance of Helios (sun). There are actually more than 12 constellations at play. The stars of the heaven falling simply means it got very dark or black to where you could not see any stars....from the previous statement.

[kofh2u]

That is one interpretation. Rev chapter one descibes Jesus in an astrological sense by comparing him to 7 gods. The all knowing eyes of Zeus (Jupiter) the hair of Chronos (Saturn) the girdle about the paps -Athene (Venus) the sword of Ares (Mars) the sound of Selene (moon) The sift feet of Hermes (Mercury) and the radiance of Helios (sun). There are actually more than 12 constellations at play. The stars of the heaven falling simply means it got very dark or black to where you could not see any stars....from the previous statement.


1) The four cardinal points are Judah, Reuben, Ephraim, and Dan.

2) The Kabbalah was "resurrected" in the 13th century as a subject to be revisited. However, the work was incomplete and lacked key insights. It soon reduced to an arcane magical Kabbalah used to exploit the once powerful art used by the Aaronic priesthood of the Kohanim. Basically, what has been passed down to us is a collection of secular comments on the Kabbalah. I say secular in the kindest of ways.
Regardless of the rabbinical offices any commentator may have held, they have no authenication of their hypothesizes in an application to scripture beyong the Gematria.
And, neither can the tell you of the "hidden manna" from which it is directly derived from Torah, in Genesis. It is also confirmed by its usefulness in a rediscovery of Urim and Thummim. There is more of course, but my point is that the Kabbalah is NOT the secret esoteric doctrine of Israel BECAUSE the Rabbi won't inform us, but because he actually doesn't remember it.

The collection of Kabbalahistic graphics and written commentary serve the useful purposes of reminding all, that the Kabbalah is an authentic and recognized mysterious companion to both Judaism and Torah. And, the collection of the writings to which you referred are useful in confirming many things that the present theory of the Kabbalah turns out to imply.

3) Yes, I have scans and sources of archelogical uncoveries in synagogues throughout the Middle East where floors are tiled with Hebrew Astrological Signs. It is interesting in comparing the revisited Gentile Astrology to understand that modern attempts to use birthdays as Sun Signs must fall dince the Babylonian Astrogogers, the Chaldeans, used "Moon Signs" in that t
eir calendar was a Moon Calendar. No birth stone ought be purchased unless the Hebrew Cakendar is used to find the true birth sign, and there are thirteen such possibilities, not twelve.

4) Revelation proclaims a double-edged learning experience. It proceeds from the words out of the mouth of the Truth is coming. It concerns a rectification of erroneous secular knowledge including astrology and t]religious dogma concerning scripture:

ev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, (the sevenfold spirit of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego): and out of his mouth went a two-edged sword (cutting both secular and theological understandings): and his countenance was as the sun (of rationality) shineth in his strength (of secular knowledge).

[mikeledo]

1) The four cardinal points are Judah, Reuben, Ephraim, and Dan.

2) The Kabbalah was "resurrected" in the 13th century as a subject to be revisited. However, the work was incomplete and lacked key insights. It soon reduced to an arcane magical Kabbalah used to exploit the once powerful art used by the Aaronic priesthood of the Kohanim. Basically, what has been passed down to us is a collection of secular comments on the Kabbalah. I say secular in the kindest of ways.
Regardless of the rabbinical offices any commentator may have held, they have no authenication of their hypothesizes in an application to scripture beyong the Gematria.
And, neither can the tell you of the "hidden manna" from which it is directly derived from Torah, in Genesis. It is also confirmed by its usefulness in a rediscovery of Urim and Thummim. There is more of course, but my point is that the Kabbalah is NOT the secret esoteric doctrine of Israel BECAUSE the Rabbi won't inform us, but because he actually doesn't remember it.

The collection of Kabbalahistic graphics and written commentary serve the useful purposes of reminding all, that the Kabbalah is an authentic and recognized mysterious companion to both Judaism and Torah. And, the collection of the writings to which you referred are useful in confirming many things that the present theory of the Kabbalah turns out to imply.

3) Yes, I have scans and sources of archelogical uncoveries in synagogues throughout the Middle East where floors are tiled with Hebrew Astrological Signs. It is interesting in comparing the revisited Gentile Astrology to understand that modern attempts to use birthdays as Sun Signs must fall dince the Babylonian Astrogogers, the Chaldeans, used "Moon Signs" in that t
eir calendar was a Moon Calendar. No birth stone ought be purchased unless the Hebrew Cakendar is used to find the true birth sign, and there are thirteen such possibilities, not twelve.

4) Revelation proclaims a double-edged learning experience. It proceeds from the words out of the mouth of the Truth is coming. It concerns a rectification of erroneous secular knowledge including astrology and t]religious dogma concerning scripture:

ev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, (the sevenfold spirit of the psyche: Id, Libido, Ego, Anima, Self, Harmony, Superego): and out of his mouth went a two-edged sword (cutting both secular and theological understandings): and his countenance was as the sun (of rationality) shineth in his strength (of secular knowledge).
I would agree on the cardinal points, but as a nitpick I would have Joseph instead of Ephraim. Joseph's sons are not really zodiac signs in themselves but represent the two horns of Taurus.

I would also agree the Kabbal is incorrect and is an attempt to reconstruct what was hidden.

YHWH was a moon god. The zodiac is a "sun sign" in today's language, but they clearly played an importance in the original text about YHWH's domain. The text also include Samson a sun god. 13 is significant as a lunar cycle I agree. Modern astrology is basically based on ancient astrology. There are differences of course, but it seems the astronomers/astrologers had dome Biblical knowledge of the true connection of the stars to the Bible as late as the 1700s.

Prophecy was based upon astrology. Revelation is no different in that regard.

[kofh2u]

I would agree on the cardinal points, but as a nitpick I would have Joseph instead of Ephraim. Joseph's sons are not really zodiac signs in themselves but represent the two horns of Taurus.

I would also agree the Kabbal is incorrect and is an attempt to reconstruct what was hidden.

YHWH was a moon god. The zodiac is a "sun sign" in today's language, but they clearly played an importance in the original text about YHWH's domain. The text also include Samson a sun god. 13 is significant as a lunar cycle I agree. Modern astrology is basically based on ancient astrology. There are differences of course, but it seems the astronomers/astrologers had dome Biblical knowledge of the true connection of the stars to the Bible as late as the 1700s.

Prophecy was based upon astrology. Revelation is no different in that regard.


Yes. My original poem, below, may interest you.

We read that these Jews were held by Egypt's Pharaoh,
Virtual slaves in a station low and narrow.
Given some great power to break both Church and State,
Moses calls Israel, his Jews do not hesitate.

Though Pharaoh's authority was a regal right,
His priestly gowns enhanced his God-like might.
The Sun God, supremely alone all day,
Over six nocturnal planets did hold sway.

Until by Moses they were led,
Their name for God was never said.
Let the Gentile preach seven Gods in Heaven;
An eighth to come from those eating bread unleavened.

This is the God who will rock Pharaoh's boat!
Wisemen trapped in their celestial coat.
The seven spheres, with influence renown,
Have temples on earth which quaked and fell down.

Egypt's wise men preaching seven Gods in Heaven,
Were made to yield by those eating bread unleavened.
With snake entwining a rod of authority (Ex 4:2)
The proof of Moses gained a clear majority!

Upon the top of Mount Horeb, so clear, (Ex 3:1)
Uranus does to naked eyes appear.
Burning bush? Mystical experience? (Ex 3:2)
For Moses, religious insights then commence.

Transcendental visions Aaron reveals, (Ex 3:3)
And, one after another, a Hebrew conversion it seals.
Once Pharaoh was God to even the Jews.
Now many Egyptians are changing their views.

Jew frogs (Ex 8:2) that croak this song at night*
Preach a Kaballahistic insight.
Uranus, this long unseen God,
An elliptical path does trod.

Uranus, once sighted, became a burning sword.
For Jews, a scientific proof it did afford.
Heresy with cosmic proof, a new nation forged,
In an ancient world, false religions it scourged.

Uranus, the Father, Israeli faith sired,
While in planetary garb He was attired.
Their own mythology, Egypt's ancient trust,
Wisemen acquiesce to incomplete astrology, they must.

He asked, “Let my people go," (Ex 8:8)
But was deceived by Pharaoh.
He made the revelation grow,
To the citizens, Uranus he did show.

Like locust (Ex 10:4-15) they ravaged a harvest of youth,
Using Uranus as a solitary proof.
Thus mocking of the wise by slaves so simple,
Pharaoh subverted with words quite nimble.

These "locust" (Ex 10:19) whom Moses had set loose
Caused Pharaoh, again, to seek truce. (Ex 10:20)
Moses finding Pharaoh did lie,
Released a new plague, the “fly.” (Ex 8:21)

For now this tale joined that of the sighting:
Discovery of Uranus spreading like lighting,
Now he added the world famous punch line
A tale to make pyramids less divine.

“My friends, the builders built the temple wrong.”
Over all the land the Jews sang this song.
“Yahweh's Temple, a pyramid is not,
But a cubic shaped box it ought adopt.” (Is 19:19)

[mikeledo]

Yes. My original poem, below, may interest you.

We read that these Jews were held by Egypt's Pharaoh,
Virtual slaves in a station low and narrow.
Given some great power to break both Church and State,
Moses calls Israel, his Jews do not hesitate.

Though Pharaoh's authority was a regal right,
His priestly gowns enhanced his God-like might.
The Sun God, supremely alone all day,
Over six nocturnal planets did hold sway.

Until by Moses they were led,
Their name for God was never said.
Let the Gentile preach seven Gods in Heaven;
An eighth to come from those eating bread unleavened.

This is the God who will rock Pharaoh's boat!
Wisemen trapped in their celestial coat.
The seven spheres, with influence renown,
Have temples on earth which quaked and fell down.

Egypt's wise men preaching seven Gods in Heaven,
Were made to yield by those eating bread unleavened.
With snake entwining a rod of authority (Ex 4:2)
The proof of Moses gained a clear majority!

Upon the top of Mount Horeb, so clear, (Ex 3:1)
Uranus does to naked eyes appear.
Burning bush? Mystical experience? (Ex 3:2)
For Moses, religious insights then commence.

Transcendental visions Aaron reveals, (Ex 3:3)
And, one after another, a Hebrew conversion it seals.
Once Pharaoh was God to even the Jews.
Now many Egyptians are changing their views.

Jew frogs (Ex 8:2) that croak this song at night*
Preach a Kaballahistic insight.
Uranus, this long unseen God,
An elliptical path does trod.

Uranus, once sighted, became a burning sword.
For Jews, a scientific proof it did afford.
Heresy with cosmic proof, a new nation forged,
In an ancient world, false religions it scourged.

Uranus, the Father, Israeli faith sired,
While in planetary garb He was attired.
Their own mythology, Egypt's ancient trust,
Wisemen acquiesce to incomplete astrology, they must.

He asked, “Let my people go," (Ex 8:8)
But was deceived by Pharaoh.
He made the revelation grow,
To the citizens, Uranus he did show.

Like locust (Ex 10:4-15) they ravaged a harvest of youth,
Using Uranus as a solitary proof.
Thus mocking of the wise by slaves so simple,
Pharaoh subverted with words quite nimble.

These "locust" (Ex 10:19) whom Moses had set loose
Caused Pharaoh, again, to seek truce. (Ex 10:20)
Moses finding Pharaoh did lie,
Released a new plague, the “fly.” (Ex 8:21)

For now this tale joined that of the sighting:
Discovery of Uranus spreading like lighting,
Now he added the world famous punch line
A tale to make pyramids less divine.

“My friends, the builders built the temple wrong.”
Over all the land the Jews sang this song.
“Yahweh's Temple, a pyramid is not,
But a cubic shaped box it ought adopt.” (Is 19:19)
Interesting, although I consider the astrology somewhat amiss. I am not sure were Uranus fits in. Certainly not as a planet. He relates to the tale of Noah, not Moses. The Nile was the Eridanus.

The literal translation has the hand of god push Egypt back. This was the paw of Cetus which crosses the Eridanus. Moses crossed at the last star of the river from "Egypt" into Cetus the wide open spaces.

The burning bush is an oscillating star which represents the head of Medusa.

The ark of covent was a later addition to the story. It did appear until the story of David.

[kofh2u]

Interesting, although I consider the astrology somewhat amiss. I am not sure were Uranus fits in. Certainly not as a planet. He relates to the tale of Noah, not Moses. The Nile was the Eridanus.

The literal translation has the hand of god push Egypt back. This was the paw of Cetus which crosses the Eridanus. Moses crossed at the last star of the river from "Egypt" into Cetus the wide open spaces.

The burning bush is an oscillating star which represents the head of Medusa.

The ark of covent was a later addition to the story. It did appear until the story of David.


Your errors are due to the same lack of knowledge about Uranus as confounded the wizards of Pharoah.

The ultimate meaning would be:

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal (OF SCRIPTURE), and, lo, there was a great earthquake (OF SOCIAL CHANGE); and the sun (SIGNS OF ASTROLOGY) became black as sackcloth of (A NUN'S) hair, and the moon became as blood (OF CHRIST RISEN, the DIVINE SIGN FOR DETERMINING THE EASTER RESURRECTION);

Rev. 6:13 And the stars (OF THE TWELVE CONSTELLATIONS) of heaven fell (FROM GRACE) unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, (RUINED), when she is (DESTRUCTIVELY) shaken of a mighty wind (SUCH AS UNIVERSAL CATHOLICISM).

Rev. 6:14 And (ASTROLOGY) departed, (purged along with Julian the Apostate, in 360-63AD), as a scroll when it is rolled together (AND FORGOTTEN); and every mountain (IN THE PAGAN SOCIETY) and island, (SECTS AND SECRET SOCIETY, ALIKE) were moved out of their places.

[DanN1]

Eden's location is not hard to estimate from the rivers given. Splitting into four heads may be understood in the geographical sense, that if you were leaving the garden and walked along the river, you'd see it break into four branches. This doesn't necessarily mean that the water flowed out of the garden rather than into it. In fact, in order for the river to "water the garden" the proposal that it flowed into it rather than out would make more sense. So if the river had four sources as it would seem from this, the Tigris (Hiddekel) and the Euphrates would make more sense, since they do join in the south of Iraq. It should be noted that the Persian Gulf coast, according to geologists, was further north in the past, closer to the spot they would have met. What of the river Gihon, which encompassed Ethiopia? The word in the original texts is the same one which is often interpretted "Cush" throughout the Bible. Cush does in fact refer to Ethiopia in many cases, but was a tribe of people (the descendants of Cush, the son of Ham) as much as it was a place-name referring to the place past Upper Egypt. Since we know that Cushites did settle Mesopotamia (Nimrod, for example) the use of the word Cush to describe a region encompassed by a Mesopotamian river is not hard to understand. Where the Pison is now I don't know, but the Gihon, which encompassed Havilah (a people of Arabia) may be now just some wadi of the region. The proposal that the four rivers joined in southern Mesopotamia (geology points to just north of ancient Ur for the old Tigris-Euphrates intersection) is a very logical one, placing Eden in what became Sumer.

[mikeledo]

Is it not an appeal to ignorance to assume that because one myth was written before another that it actually came first? Did not the Hebrews have an excellent oral tradition?



This is interesting, please explain.

It is extremely difficult to prove any group of people had a "excellent oral tradition" outside of the porno industry. For that reason written records tend to be looked at. How could show the written record was based on an oral tradition dating back many years? For that to be true, it would have to meet 2 criteria. First the work would have to be more primitive or basic and second it could not contain elements of a recent period. The traditional view of the Bible would rule that out. The Bible stories are far more complex than that of Babylon plus contain elements from the Iron Age, i.e. a thousand years later.

Now having said that, I contend that there is a basic primitive Early Bronze Age text in the Bible, however I am one of 4 people in the world who actually believes it.

I am involved in a debate on this theory in the Tennis match area with Mr. Chillin.

Now- the Great Famine. This famine lasted 150 years. Pepi II ruled Egypt for 94 years during much of this famine. The Midrash states that the first Pharaoh of Moses in Egypt ruled from age 6 to 100. This corresponds to Pepi II. No other Egytpian ruler meets this discription. This time period was also the changing of a World Age from Taurus to Aries. Taurus would represent Egypt's rule over the world and Aries would be the rule of Babylon, Assyria, and that of the Amorites.

This was the famine which caused Joseph to rise to power in Egypt as a foreigner and drove his family to seek food in Egypt year after year. Egypt was intially uneffected by the famine, using the Nile for irrigation, put then fell victim. Anarachy ruled, Slaves went free, records were destroyed, graineries pillaged. Every family had at least one dead.

The Nile turned to "blood" or at least turned red. I am suggesting the Admonitions of Ipuwer were of this time period, although others will disagree.

This is what I have to say: "
A papyrus called the Admonitions of Ipuwer describes the catastrophe similar to the Exodus. The author of Admonitions complains of a lack of authority, justice and social order as if the central authority no longer had the will or power to keep control. He also complains about barbarians and foreigners as if the country has been invaded. Nobody is planting crops because they are not sure what will happen. The public offices have been opened. Records of who is a serf and who is a master have been taken. The pharaoh’s granaries have been looted by the people. Every household has some dead. The southern most districts are paying no taxes. He complains that the Nile has strangely turned to blood and "If one drinks it, one rejects it as human (blood) and thirsts for water." He wrote, "Grain is perished on every side."



Pepi II ruled over Egypt during this time. He was made a pharaoh at age 6 and reigned for 94 years. He decentralized the government by giving wealth from his treasury to local governors. According to Manetho his successor was Merenre II. He reigned for one year and was supposedly followed by Queen Nitocris, “braver than all the men of her time, the most beautiful of all women, fair skinned with red cheeks.” No archeological evidence has been found for her existence. At this time anarchy breaks out in Egypt that would last 140 years. The end of the 6th Dynasty is marked as 2181 B.C.E.



Herodotus (ii, 100) claims the ruler before the legendary Nitocris was her brother who he assigns no name. This ruler was slain by a group of Egyptians who then turned the kingdom over to Nitocris. She then devised a plan for vengeance. Nitocris created an underground chamber and invited those responsible for her brother’s death to a feast. When the party was gathered she opened up a flood gate and killed those responsible with the waters of the Nile. She then set herself on fire to escape punishment.



In putting together the pieces, Merenre was the pharaoh of the Exodus who was in reality killed by his own people. ....

In our original Old Testament text there is no four hundred year gap between Joseph and Moses. The same famine which brought Joseph into Egypt is still persisting. From the above writing it would appear the foreigners were “expelled” rather than fleeing. Egypt, initially unaffected by the drought, welcomes the foreigners as they are added to the work force. As the drought worsens, Egypt is affected by “plagues.”



The story of Moses infers the first pharaoh reigned for a long time, and the second one, the pharaoh of the Exodus, a short period of time.



That would fit with Pepi II and Merenre II. According to a Midrash, the Pharaoh of the Exodus was named Adikam. He had a short reign of four years before drowning in the Red Sea. The Pharaoh who preceded him, whose death prompted Moses’ return to Egypt (Exodus 2:23, 4:19), was named Malul. Malul, we are told, reigned from the age of six to the age of one hundred. This is an extremely close match. Only one pharaoh in Egypt ruled from age six to hundred.....



Who lead the Exodus of this period or if one even occurred is not certain. Pottery found at Mt. Yeroham, some believe to be Mt. Sinai date to this period.

In comparing the astral religion of Egypt to the Bible I have written this:

"Also associated with this month was the season of the inundation or flooding of the Nile. August 12th was holy to Sekhmet, the lioness headed form of Hathor. It also celebrated the mysteries of Osiris, who is represented by the constellation Orion, our Noah. This is also the feast of the Lights of Isis, which would be Sirius in Canis Major. In our text these constellations were part of the Leo/Virgo group. Egypt just associated them with Leo.

This festival was also known as the Festival of Intoxication. This would be our Noah, the drunken winemaker. According to the Egyptian tale Hathor was bent on destroying mankind. Ra tricked her into drinking beer laced with mandrake and red ocher. He then flooded Egypt with this drugged beer. Hathor believed the drink to be blood, consumed so much she passed out.

This story has several elements associated with Noah’s tale. There is an attempt or desire by a god to destroy mankind. In this case it is the goddess Hathor who passes out, instead of Noah. The red element of the flooding of the Egypt reminds me of the plagues of circa 2200 B.C.E. when the river “turned to blood.”

This is most likely the origin of the Dionysus/Bacchus rituals which would culminate into a drunken orgy. Aristotle claimed this was the origin of plays.

In Palestine, Dionysus was identified with Noah. He had the title Deucalion or “New-wine sailor.” Tacitus claimed Dionysus Liber was once the god of Jerusalem in a former time, but has then replaced. He said, “Liber established a festive and cheerful worship, while the Jewish religion is tasteless and mean. “ In 5th century B.C.E., near Gaza both Dionysus and Jehovah appeared on opposite sides of the same coin.

Diodorus, writing in the first century B. C., declares: "the rite of Osiris is the same as that of Dionysus and that of Isis very similar to that of Demeter, the names alone having been interchanged" (Persian War, I). And again: "Osiris is the one whom the Greeks call Dionysus.” Plutarch reiterates that Osiris and Dionysus are identical (Isis and Osiris), and declares that the public ceremonies of Osiris in Egypt and those of Dionysus in Greece are one and the same. The conclusion would be that the Great Famine caused a feeling of impending doom, which led to an anarchist society highlighted with drinking and promiscuity. This would remain in the culture both as a religious celebration and a representation in the stars.

Not knowing when the rituals where first observed in Egypt, I would speculate the Osiris/Dionysus cult of the drunken feast was possibly initiated with King Sesostris or Senusret who ruled Egypt from 1971-1926 BCE. The cow horned Demeter associated with Dionysus would assume the role of Hathor. Demeter attempted to destroy mankind with a great famine when her daughter Kore was abducted. " I contend these myths of Hathor and Demeter came from this era.

There are some differences I want to point out. The flood of Noah does NOT correspond to the famine period, it preceeds it. It is the attempt by a God to destroy the world which has the common elements. The astral religion of Egypt and the Bible run close to each other, but are in no way identical. They seem to utilize the constellations to have similar basic or root meanings, but in a different context. Hathor in the Egyptian planisphere is Draco. Draco apparently represents the one who attempts to destroy the world or at least a nation. In The OT this was the armies from the north which attacked Joshua, Hazor a Hathor worship center being one of them by no coincedence. In the Revelation prophecy these are the armies which will attack Israel from the north.

[kofh2u]

It is extremely difficult to prove any group of people had a "excellent oral tradition" outside of the porno industry. For that reason written records tend to be looked at. How could show the written record was based on an oral tradition dating back many years? For that to be true, it would have to meet 2 criteria. First the work would have to be more primitive or basic and second it could not contain elements of a recent period. The traditional view of the Bible would rule that out. The Bible stories are far more complex than that of Babylon plus contain elements from the Iron Age, i.e. a thousand years later.

Now having said that, I contend that there is a basic primitive Early Bronze Age text in the Bible, however I am one of 4 people in the world who actually believes it.

I am involved in a debate on this theory in the Tennis match area with Mr. Chillin.

Now- the Great Famine. This famine lasted 150 years. Pepi II ruled Egypt for 94 years during much of this famine. The Midrash states that the first Pharaoh of Moses in Egypt ruled from age 6 to 100. This corresponds to Pepi II. No other Egytpian ruler meets this discription. This time period was also the changing of a World Age from Taurus to Aries. Taurus would represent Egypt's rule over the world and Aries would be the rule of Babylon, Assyria, and that of the Amorites.

This was the famine which caused Joseph to rise to power in Egypt as a foreigner and drove his family to seek food in Egypt year after year. Egypt was intially uneffected by the famine, using the Nile for irrigation, put then fell victim. Anarachy ruled, Slaves went free, records were destroyed, graineries pillaged. Every family had at least one dead.

The Nile turned to "blood" or at least turned red. I am suggesting the Admonitions of Ipuwer were of this time period, although others will disagree.

This is what I have to say: "
A papyrus called the Admonitions of Ipuwer describes the catastrophe similar to the Exodus. The author of Admonitions complains of a lack of authority, justice and social order as if the central authority no longer had the will or power to keep control. He also complains about barbarians and foreigners as if the country has been invaded. Nobody is planting crops because they are not sure what will happen. The public offices have been opened. Records of who is a serf and who is a master have been taken. The pharaoh’s granaries have been looted by the people. Every household has some dead. The southern most districts are paying no taxes. He complains that the Nile has strangely turned to blood and "If one drinks it, one rejects it as human (blood) and thirsts for water." He wrote, "Grain is perished on every side."



Pepi II ruled over Egypt during this time. He was made a pharaoh at age 6 and reigned for 94 years. He decentralized the government by giving wealth from his treasury to local governors. According to Manetho his successor was Merenre II. He reigned for one year and was supposedly followed by Queen Nitocris, “braver than all the men of her time, the most beautiful of all women, fair skinned with red cheeks.” No archeological evidence has been found for her existence. At this time anarchy breaks out in Egypt that would last 140 years. The end of the 6th Dynasty is marked as 2181 B.C.E.



Herodotus (ii, 100) claims the ruler before the legendary Nitocris was her brother who he assigns no name. This ruler was slain by a group of Egyptians who then turned the kingdom over to Nitocris. She then devised a plan for vengeance. Nitocris created an underground chamber and invited those responsible for her brother’s death to a feast. When the party was gathered she opened up a flood gate and killed those responsible with the waters of the Nile. She then set herself on fire to escape punishment.



In putting together the pieces, Merenre was the pharaoh of the Exodus who was in reality killed by his own people. ....

In our original Old Testament text there is no four hundred year gap between Joseph and Moses. The same famine which brought Joseph into Egypt is still persisting. From the above writing it would appear the foreigners were “expelled” rather than fleeing. Egypt, initially unaffected by the drought, welcomes the foreigners as they are added to the work force. As the drought worsens, Egypt is affected by “plagues.”



The story of Moses infers the first pharaoh reigned for a long time, and the second one, the pharaoh of the Exodus, a short period of time.



That would fit with Pepi II and Merenre II. According to a Midrash, the Pharaoh of the Exodus was named Adikam. He had a short reign of four years before drowning in the Red Sea. The Pharaoh who preceded him, whose death prompted Moses’ return to Egypt (Exodus 2:23, 4:19), was named Malul. Malul, we are told, reigned from the age of six to the age of one hundred. This is an extremely close match. Only one pharaoh in Egypt ruled from age six to hundred.....



Who lead the Exodus of this period or if one even occurred is not certain. Pottery found at Mt. Yeroham, some believe to be Mt. Sinai date to this period.

In comparing the astral religion of Egypt to the Bible I have written this:

"Also associated with this month was the season of the inundation or flooding of the Nile. August 12th was holy to Sekhmet, the lioness headed form of Hathor. It also celebrated the mysteries of Osiris, who is represented by the constellation Orion, our Noah. This is also the feast of the Lights of Isis, which would be Sirius in Canis Major. In our text these constellations were part of the Leo/Virgo group. Egypt just associated them with Leo.

This festival was also known as the Festival of Intoxication. This would be our Noah, the drunken winemaker. According to the Egyptian tale Hathor was bent on destroying mankind. Ra tricked her into drinking beer laced with mandrake and red ocher. He then flooded Egypt with this drugged beer. Hathor believed the drink to be blood, consumed so much she passed out.

This story has several elements associated with Noah’s tale. There is an attempt or desire by a god to destroy mankind. In this case it is the goddess Hathor who passes out, instead of Noah. The red element of the flooding of the Egypt reminds me of the plagues of circa 2200 B.C.E. when the river “turned to blood.”

This is most likely the origin of the Dionysus/Bacchus rituals which would culminate into a drunken orgy. Aristotle claimed this was the origin of plays.

In Palestine, Dionysus was identified with Noah. He had the title Deucalion or “New-wine sailor.” Tacitus claimed Dionysus Liber was once the god of Jerusalem in a former time, but has then replaced. He said, “Liber established a festive and cheerful worship, while the Jewish religion is tasteless and mean. “ In 5th century B.C.E., near Gaza both Dionysus and Jehovah appeared on opposite sides of the same coin.

Diodorus, writing in the first century B. C., declares: "the rite of Osiris is the same as that of Dionysus and that of Isis very similar to that of Demeter, the names alone having been interchanged" (Persian War, I). And again: "Osiris is the one whom the Greeks call Dionysus.” Plutarch reiterates that Osiris and Dionysus are identical (Isis and Osiris), and declares that the public ceremonies of Osiris in Egypt and those of Dionysus in Greece are one and the same. The conclusion would be that the Great Famine caused a feeling of impending doom, which led to an anarchist society highlighted with drinking and promiscuity. This would remain in the culture both as a religious celebration and a representation in the stars.

Not knowing when the rituals where first observed in Egypt, I would speculate the Osiris/Dionysus cult of the drunken feast was possibly initiated with King Sesostris or Senusret who ruled Egypt from 1971-1926 BCE. The cow horned Demeter associated with Dionysus would assume the role of Hathor. Demeter attempted to destroy mankind with a great famine when her daughter Kore was abducted. " I contend these myths of Hathor and Demeter came from this era.

There are some differences I want to point out. The flood of Noah does NOT correspond to the famine period, it preceeds it. It is the attempt by a God to destroy the world which has the common elements. The astral religion of Egypt and the Bible run close to each other, but are in no way identical. They seem to utilize the constellations to have similar basic or root meanings, but in a different context. Hathor in the Egyptian planisphere is Draco. Draco apparently represents the one who attempts to destroy the world or at least a nation. In The OT this was the armies from the north which attacked Joshua, Hazor a Hathor worship center being one of them by no coincedence. In the Revelation prophecy these are the armies which will attack Israel from the north.




Hi,
A lot of good academic research by you and others here makes for interesting reading. I find much of what you say informative, and tho' you quote few sources, it seems convincing.

The mention of these myths suggests that different cultures of that day, strangely enough, all had analogous Gods and similar descriptions concerning their behavior. This is a little known fact. Every culture apparently has created a very similar set of Gods with characteristic behaviors and even rites. The explanation seems to lie in a hypothesis that insists everyone of these myths is representive of a social subclass within the society. The similarities imply that basic human drives and urges, to include emotional predispositions, govern human interaction so thoroughly that the actions in ever generation are merely repeated in the next, and copied from the last.

Except for the Jew, who in his monotheism was to refrain from those pagan or gentile anthropomorphisms. In outlawing certain behaviors, the Jews effectively denied their own society a myth of any kind, and in particular, the one common to all their neighbors.

I would have much to say about the significance if this, especially concerning the Jew ability to make predictions, called prophecies, into future generations. I believe it can be shown that these Jewish "prophets" made pronostications derived from accurate observation and practical experiment from past generations. But, I wanted to respond also to the point about oral tradition in Torah.

Mikeledo said:
It is extremely difficult to prove any group of people had a "excellent oral tradition" outside of the porno industry. For that reason written records tend to be looked at. How could show the written record was based on an oral tradition dating back many years? For that to be true, it would have to meet 2 criteria.

In particular, I respond to the question. " How could show the written record was based on an oral tradition dating back many years?"

First, what has been called the Oral Tradition is actually two things. One is the popular and common tales, remembered things, especially layman descriptions of various rites and practices.

For instance, in the Sedar, a number of long practiced rituals during the dinner have been passed down from generation to generation. As an example, the Afikomen practice, hiding a tiny sandwich of three pieces of matzo before the dinner, and having the young people find it. There is no writtenscript gor this in the Torah.

Then, there is much evidence to support a practice whereby men were actually trained in a very unique mnemonic system which taught them parts of Genesis. Together, they could, in fact, present what it is we read today, the entire book. The evidence of this... the Oral Priestly Practice can be demonsated as a proof of the theory concerning the memory keyes they used. And, both Old Testament and New Testament contain many references and specific hints to the method.

The proof of this puddin' is both an experiential demonstration and the lucidation of the hidden "trick" to be found in a literary contrivance in the passages of the Torah itself.

[mikeledo]

Hi,

A lot of good academic research by you and others here makes for interesting reading. I find much of what you say informative, and tho' you quote few sources, it seems convincing.

The mention of these myths suggests that different cultures of that day, strangely enough, all had analogous Gods and similar descriptions concerning their behavior. This is a little known fact. Every culture apparently has created a very similar set of Gods with characteristic behaviors and even rites. The explanation seems to lie in a hypothesis that insists everyone of these myths is representive of a social subclass within the society. The similarities imply that basic human drives and urges, to include emotional predispositions, govern human interaction so thoroughly that the actions in ever generation are merely repeated in the next, and copied from the last.


That is the popular Joseph Campbell notion. Campbell admits he has problems. It couldn't explain the over exaggerations of the super-man hero myth. While I do not refute the works of Campbell, his work would have been better off if he had reflected on the love of astral religion of the ancients.


Except for the Jew, who in his monotheism was to refrain from those pagan or gentile anthropomorphisms. In outlawing certain behaviors, the Jews effectively denied their own society a myth of any kind, and in particular, the one common to all their neighbors.

I would have much to say about the significance if this, especially concerning the Jew ability to make predictions, called prophecies, into future generations. I believe it can be shown that these Jewish "prophets" made pronostications derived from accurate observation and practical experiment from past generations. But, I wanted to respond also to the point about oral tradition in Torah.


I do not see the ancient Hebrews as monotheistic. While they may have only worshipped one or two gods (YHWH and/ or EL) they believed the other gods existed such as Asherah and Baal.



Mikeledo said:
It is extremely difficult to prove any group of people had a "excellent oral tradition" outside of the porno industry. For that reason written records tend to be looked at. How could show the written record was based on an oral tradition dating back many years? For that to be true, it would have to meet 2 criteria.

In particular, I respond to the question. " How could show the written record was based on an oral tradition dating back many years?"

First, what has been called the Oral Tradition is actually two things. One is the popular and common tales, remembered things, especially layman descriptions of various rites and practices.

For instance, in the Sedar, a number of long practiced rituals during the dinner have been passed down from generation to generation. As an example, the Afikomen practice, hiding a tiny sandwich of three pieces of matzo before the dinner, and having the young people find it. There is no writtenscript gor this in the Torah.

Then, there is much evidence to support a practice whereby men were actually trained in a very unique mnemonic system which taught them parts of Genesis. Together, they could, in fact, present what it is we read today, the entire book. The evidence of this... the Oral Priestly Practice can be demonsated as a proof of the theory concerning the memory keyes they used. And, both Old Testament and New Testament contain many references and specific hints to the method.

The proof of this puddin' is both an experiential demonstration and the lucidation of the hidden "trick" to be found in a literary contrivance in the passages of the Torah itself.

Did you ever play the game "gossip" as a kid? You would get 20 kids together and whisper a sentence in his ear. He would then whisper it to another child and so on. At the end the last child would repeat what he thought the original phrase was. The last phrase didn't look anything like the original. I don't buy "excellent oral tradition" from anyone over a long period of time. I would contend it was either written or altered.

[kofh2u]

attention: Mikeledo,

Thank you for the reply.

You ask, "Did you ever play the game "gossip" as a kid? You would get 20 kids together and whisper a sentence in his ear. He would then whisper it to another child and so on. At the end the last child would repeat what he thought the original phrase was. The last phrase didn't look anything like the original."

Yes, I did and I have been aware of the erosion process.

You also said:
I don't buy "excellent oral tradition" from anyone over a long period of time. I would contend it was either written or altered.

And, of course you would be very smart to stick to your opinion on this.

Then, being as bright as the men who also knew the truth of what you and I understand today, yoj might as they did... invent something to circumvent this problem of interpgenerational communication. Especially, if you took into consideration that 3300 years ago, illiteracy was conpounded by a total lack of anything to read.
Without the printing press, and with all written records strictly censored and censorable in future generations, you as I, myself, might work to overcome such limitations. The secret societies, like tge Pythagorean, was one not so good idea. The Hebrew tool, the Urim and Thummim, was an excellent and amazing success, thought. The U&T is to be flund hidden in the same strory whose veracity it was invented to protect, the Torah.

See what I am contending?

[Maimonides]

I was reading Genesis again the other day. As always , I keep wondering where Eden was. I would say it was lost inthe flood except that the language seems to indicate that the writer was speakign of a places that could identify where it was.

Yes, precisely. Modern-day (at the time) reference points.

Genesis 2:11
The name of the first [is] Pison: that [is] it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where [there is] gold;


See my post, "The Garden of Eden Myth": Havilah is Arabia. The aromatic frankincense (=bdellium as I recall), was the prime export of Arabia, especially Oman, in past eons.


Genesis 2:12
And the gold of that land [is] good: there [is] bdellium and the onyx stone.

Genesis 2:13
And the name of the second river [is] Gihon: the same [is] it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

Ethiopia reads Cush in my Bible; roughly equivalent but both wrong. Again, see my post; Cush should be "Kahshu", reference to the Indo-European Kahshites or Kassites.

Genesis 2:14
And the name of the third river [is] Hiddekel: that [is] it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river [is] Euphrates.
So my question then would be, if it was not buried in the flood where was it? I found some old maps of eurasia on the net but they were not too clear and not much help. I also noticed this thime I read Genesis 2 that the garden was in Eden, not Eden but in it.That makes me wonder about the rivers that came from the garden.
Genesis 2:10
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.


No, actually four rivers joined to form one head; confusingly, this amalgamated "river" could actually be the ocean. (Understood as the "river" that encompassed the world in the ancient Middle East/Mediterranean).


there was one river, which watered the garden.After the garden it split.
I know some beleive Eden was iraq, but I wondr?One river encompased africa I thin k. So I guess what i want os s ome help answering my curiosity.WAs the wirter talkingof somethignthat existed in his day?


No, "Eden" was long gone by then, inundated by the Flandrian transgression to form the floor of the Persian Gulf.


if so then we should be able to clearly find Eden. What are the modern names of the rivers Gihon and Hiddekel?


Hiddekel is the Tigris.


Those two rivers frustrate me. Finally, what does archeological evidence show concerning where Eden was and so on?
I sure hope these questions made sense.[/QUOTE]

[mikeledo]

attention: Mikeledo,

Thank you for the reply.

You ask, "Did you ever play the game "gossip" as a kid? You would get 20 kids together and whisper a sentence in his ear. He would then whisper it to another child and so on. At the end the last child would repeat what he thought the original phrase was. The last phrase didn't look anything like the original."

Yes, I did and I have been aware of the erosion process.

You also said:
I don't buy "excellent oral tradition" from anyone over a long period of time. I would contend it was either written or altered.

And, of course you would be very smart to stick to your opinion on this.

Then, being as bright as the men who also knew the truth of what you and I understand today, yoj might as they did... invent something to circumvent this problem of interpgenerational communication. Especially, if you took into consideration that 3300 years ago, illiteracy was conpounded by a total lack of anything to read.
Without the printing press, and with all written records strictly censored and censorable in future generations, you as I, myself, might work to overcome such limitations. The secret societies, like tge Pythagorean, was one not so good idea. The Hebrew tool, the Urim and Thummim, was an excellent and amazing success, thought. The U&T is to be flund hidden in the same strory whose veracity it was invented to protect, the Torah.

See what I am contending?

I know that stories grow with time. It is interesting that Pythagoreas himself was against writing down his tenets because it prevented ideas from growing and changing. He expected and wanted his ideas to grow. This of course did not last.

Writings were self censored for political reasons mostly, while craft skills were handed down orally. I would contend authors coded their works to hide their real intent, such as the Gnostics who would make contradicting statements within their own text in order to confuse the uninitiated. This is why some authors consider Paul, who makes anti-Gnostic statements a Gnostic like Philo of Alexandria.

The Torah clearly has different styles of writing indicating a mutiple source document hypothesis. This would not be true if the text was an oral tradition until written as we have it today.

Maimonides- It is my understanding that there once was a river in the Saudi desert that has since dried up. It remains has been determined with satellite photography. I believe that is your fourth river. Don't use those rivers as actual landmarks. I would consider them more cosmic in origin, ie. the Milky Way and Eridanus. Dilmun was you Eden. Rememeber if we take the Bible literally landmarks such as the Nile River etc would have never survived the flood.

[kofh2u]

I know that stories grow with time. It is interesting that Pythagoreas himself was against writing down his tenets because it prevented ideas from growing and changing. He expected and wanted his ideas to grow. This of course did not last.

Writings were self censored for political reasons mostly, while craft skills were handed down orally. I would contend authors coded their works to hide their real intent, such as the Gnostics who would make contradicting statements within their own text in order to confuse the uninitiated. This is why some authors consider Paul, who makes anti-Gnostic statements a Gnostic like Philo of Alexandria.

The Torah clearly has different styles of writing indicating a mutiple source document hypothesis. This would not be true if the text was an oral tradition until written as we have it today.

Maimonides- It is my understanding that there once was a river in the Saudi desert that has since dried up. It remains has been determined with satellite photography. I believe that is your fourth river. Don't use those rivers as actual landmarks. I would consider them more cosmic in origin, ie. the Milky Way and Eridanus. Dilmun was you Eden. Rememeber if we take the Bible literally landmarks such as the Nile River etc would have never survived the flood.


I pick this statement from what you say as the place to begin.

"The Torah clearly has different styles of writing indicating a mutiple source document hypothesis. This would not be true if the text was an oral tradition until written as we have it today"

It is explicitly because of what you observe that I draw the exact opposite conclusion.

If the original Torah was remembered by a system of cues which acted as both a script and a fence to limit any digression from the content, then the facts and details, presented by 4 different troups or companies of "actors," would preclude a number of versions.

The performances would all contain personal little idiosyncs of the people who were telling the tale. Though, like a remake of a movie today, their fingerprint on the film would be more a matter of style.

Now, for instance, it is exactly because the P and the E sources differ in style that we suspect there even are different written sources. To make my point, the long tradition of only oral dialogues were finally committed to writing, but the stenographic exercise took place in at least four different "theatres," and the written records were verbatim oral and dramatic presentations by at least four different companies of performers.

Now, to change the subject as regards your comments about these mysterious rivers of Eden.

I have a totally original and raher unique take on Eden. Proceeding from Genesis 1, where I see the seven durations of time, days, but called the seven yoms (Hebrew), Genesis is actually about the evolution of man. Iin particular, man's manifestation as a mind. This is an evolutionary development quite unique and important to the rest of the bible.

The seven Geological and biologically accepted spans called Eras are analogous to the seven days of creation. Eden is the little place in this universe where something very unusual happens. Eden is the land where thinking, abstract reflection about the world at large, a coming conscious interaction with the Creation, is going to take place.

This IS a biggie! A Mind that thinks about God and his creation, this is not an ameba. This is a very amazing extension of the simple statement that God created a man.

Scripture should not be sold short on this important evolutionary, revolutionary, fact. A human mind has been created!

Gen. 2:6 But there went up a mist, (a forming mental illusion in this species of man), from the (developing life forms of the) earth, and (it permeated every aspect of the environment as if it had) watered the whole face of the ground.

I hesitate to tell you where the rivers are.

[eprom]

I just spent the better part of a week with OT Professor Richard Pratt from Reformed Theological Seminary -- his spin (an one held by a number of ancient Jewish scholars) was that Eden was at the site of Jerusalem. As such, it was "the mountain of God." This was seen as the one place that is at the center of the world.

Not sure that I buy it, but it is an interesting theory nevertheless.

I’ve recently written an article on the location of Eden, and do not believe you have to contrive any of the rivers listed in Genesis 2. The headwaters of these four rivers are located as they appear in the Bible: in Arabia – Pishon, Africa (just as Josephus states) – Gehon, and Eastern Turkey – Tigris & Euphrates. All the headwaters of these rivers follow the Great Rift Valley, which the Dead Sea is part of. You can read the article at:

http://www.faithwriters.com/article-details.php?id=19131

You can read the article, and follow the link at the bottom of the page to view progress on a website that’s being developed to forward the Biblical, Historical and Geologic model for this Eden in Israel proposition.

[kofh2u]

I’ve recently written an article on the location of Eden, and do not believe you have to contrive any of the rivers listed in Genesis 2. The headwaters of these four rivers are located as they appear in the Bible: in Arabia – Pishon, Africa (just as Josephus states) – Gehon, and Eastern Turkey – Tigris & Euphrates. All the headwaters of these rivers follow the Great Rift Valley, which the Dead Sea is part of. You can read the article at:

http://www.faithwriters.com/article-details.php?id=19131

You can read the article, and follow the link at the bottom of the page to view progress on a website that’s being developed to forward the Biblical, Historical and Geologic model for this Eden in Israel proposition.

The author makes an interesting connection between the myth-like details of this surrealistic Eden environment. Trees of life and knowledge (of good and evil) are added to cold modern research. He mixes geological possibility with a hoped for metaphysical feasibility.

By demonstrating that the various stretches needed can be rationalized, we are being asked to accept the irrationality of the larger picture.

We are being asked to entertain a physucal place, one still present today, a place guarded by two mysterious creatures called Cherubim. These four faced winged creatures weild a firey sword in order to keep trespassers out. Yet, the four rivers are feed from one head and some are dried up. This is a place still existing according to the account, but we see neither the dried up rivers nor the gates.

The mythological style of writing about this Eden is ignored. This is a story. Get over the literal incongruities. We are being asked to make the myth the factual meaning, rather than assume it was merely the vehicle. The literary vehicle by which to carry an important understanding forward into our own time.

In attempting to find factual basis for a real place, the author encourages a blindness to the intended simile. Sure. The writing concerns itself with real ideas, real rivers. This is no different from the style of other ancient tales produced for an intended audience and calculated to "sell."

Recognizing that this account in Genesis was intended for each and every human generation that followed its writing, up to and including our own present stage of human rationality, we ought argue that former times required myth. The ancient audience demanded the fantastic, thrived upon dramatization, and allegory and metaphysical possibilities.

So, the style of the presentation is understandable, while the literal message is not, whether actual rivers add to the credence of the basic story or not.

The author has had to lecture us on salt water symbolism, a surrealistic tree of life, and many companion metaphysical ideas in addition to the geology of rivers. This all is presented in order to maintain the metaphysical interpretation of Eden. This is to say, he uses one irrationality to show a context of interwoven irrationalities, all fitting nicely together. He supposes that the neat package of interwoven myths and metaphysical ideas convince us because of the wholeness and self reinforcement.
But, the whole ball of mythopaeic wax is belied by the prophecy of things to come:

Is 32:4 Even the hotheads among them will be full of sense and
understanding, and those who stammer in uncertainty will speak out plainly.

Is 32:3 Then at last the eyes of Israel will open wide to God and his
people will listen to his voice.

[Maimonides]

The OT stories were considered written at the same time (first 5 books anyway). Among those tales is the conquest of various cities, including Heshbon by Moses. This city didn't exist until the Iron Age making the oral tradition argument void of an earlier time period. There are also other Iron Age cities which crop up.

The Great Famine lasted for about 150 years. This famine drove Joseph and his family into Egypt as it did many foreigners. Eventually the Nile would turn to "blood" and the famine would strike Egypt with anarchy and chaos. The pharaoh of Egypt was Pepi II. He ruled from age 6 to age 100. This was also the first pharaoh of Moses (ignore that 400 year add on). The Midrash also claims this pharaoh ruled from age 6 to 100. This is the ONLY pharaoh in all of Egypt that did this-by no coincidence.

The famine also accounted for the story of Hathor's attempt to destroy the world and Kore's attempt also. It created myths. Hathor wanted to destroy mankind. Osirus found out about the plan and turned the river into red beer laced with mandrake. Hathor drank and became drunk. She failed to destroy mankind. This time period caused many to doubt their faith. It was an "eat drink and ne merry- for tomorrow we die society."

The famine came at or caused EB III. This was a period of unique lamps throughout the Middle East. Because the olive trees had died, a different style lamp was used to burn other oils. This lamp was used from 2300 BCE all over the region and suddenly its use was stopped about 2000 BCE. This makes this key period easy to date archaelogically. The walls of Jericho fell during this period also. The pottery matched the C-14 dating.

Because of the famine Egypt fell as an empire into anarchy and Babylon rose to power. This just happened to be about the same period of the new world age of Aries. Babylon, Assyria, and the Amorites all were reprented by the Aries, while Egypt was represented by Taurus- the old World Age.

There was a movement or desire to stay with Egypt, but timed moved on. In the Egyptian astrology this was represented by the leg of the bull chained to the pole star. In the Bible it was the worship of the golden calf and desire of the people to return to Egypt. Moses pressed on into Aries- we must worship the lamb (Aries) of God.
Interesting. Remember, however, Egypt's rise to even greater heights of power in the mid-second millenium BCE, after the Hyksos were defeated in 1540 BCE. This was the era of Egypt's new empire: Egyptian suzerainty extended south into Nubia and north through Syria-Palestine to Mesopotamia.

[Maimonides]

Parts of the original text (the end part) would have been written by eye-witness accounts. In fact there may be some real history in the David/Solomon stories. The original text spans several generations with a history that could be 500 to 1000 years long. Moses or his real life counterpart- King Sargon I, would have been dead.

Moses is a composite character based partly on Sargon who like Moses floated down a river in a basket as a baby and conquered the Amorites. While there was a conquest and some population migrations, the story of the Exodus, parting of the seas etc. would be something that would have been considered a history of the heavens and not the earth. It is based primarily on the constellation of Eridanus which starts as the Nile and turns into the Red Sea after the Paw of Cetus or hand of God which pushed back the armies of the pharoah. Cetus is the great waste land Moses entered. The 40 year number was later added. 40 years designates a constellation cycle. It is an astrologers note. The star Miri represented Mt. Sinai- a real live earth place. Miri is an oscillating star and appears at only certain times. This is why God was on Sinai only at certain times.

The real composer would have lived circa 2218 BCE. I suggest it was a Canaanite priest in Jerusalem who was knowledgeable of Babylonian history, myth, astrology, and current events.

There are real events- there was a flood (local), Sodom and Gommorrah did exist. Dilmun was Eden. There was a great famine. Babylonians migrated to Judea as did Abraham. Egypt was plagued (as was the most of the world). Many of the cities named in the conquests of Moses and Joshua fell. Abimelek and Jothom are based on real people.

I would contend many details in the stories are fictional and reflect astrology or history of the heavens as the Bible terms it.
I want a copy of your book.

[mikeledo]

I want a copy of your book.
Thank you. As of right now there is no book. I am currently rewriting the entire text due to discovery of new information. I am at Isaac at this moment. What I thought was the original text was not edited enough. It becomes very small. For instance the entire episode of Sodom and Gommorah is a quatrain.

This comes about because I was using Bullinger as a source for the meanings of star names. I have realized what he did was to take the closest Hebrew meaning of the star from its Arabic name. It turned out this method worked extremely well for creating a text, however it is not the best scholorship. Some of the names he translates are later Arabic names of stars based on Greek definitions of the stars and constellations. This sits well when we compare to the New Testament. It also does well when we look at how OT text was altered based upon the renaming of stars and constellations. This I had to incorporate into the rewrite, making sure I was using a star/constellation version that might have existed circa 2100 BCE. While attempting to eliminate Biblical anachronism I was creating my own. This had to be corrected.

I also changed the over all style of writing making it simplified for the average reader. It was confusing because I wrote the text as I was researching it, not knowing significant aspects until completion. The main text is simplified with the real hardcore stuff being in the chapter end notes. I also cited no sources in my first draft. This I changed and give sources for every minor detail, including page numbers and exact quotes from the source. I also created easy sub-topics in each chapter where before I jump all over the place.

I have become my own toughest critic.

My editor loves the book. He claims it has a "Joseph Campbell quality" of discovery with the intrigue of a "conspiracy theory."

I am currently repairing about two chapters per month. I have done 9 so far. I estimate about 21 chapters.

[eprom]

[QUOTE=kofh2u]The author makes an interesting connection between the myth-like details of this surrealistic Eden environment. Trees of life and knowledge (of good and evil) are added to cold modern research. He mixes geological possibility with a hoped for metaphysical feasibility.

By demonstrating that the various stretches needed can be rationalized, we are being asked to accept the irrationality of the larger picture.

We are being asked to entertain a physucal place, one still present today, a place guarded by two mysterious creatures called Cherubim. These four faced winged creatures weild a firey sword in order to keep trespassers out. Yet, the four rivers are feed from one head and some are dried up. This is a place still existing according to the account, but we see neither the dried up rivers nor the gates.

The mythological style of writing about this Eden is ignored. This is a story. Get over the literal incongruities. We are being asked to make the myth the factual meaning, rather than assume it was merely the vehicle. The literary vehicle by which to carry an important understanding forward into our own time. QUOTE]

As the late Carl Sagan once wrote: “Either you believe the rings of Saturn were created by that infinite designer - God, or they were simply a product of physical forces over time” Sagan may have had atheistic convictions, but at least he was curious enough to recognise the opposing perspective.



Let’s not pretend there aren’t at least three camps here: One that would deny any relevance of Eden’s story to our modern culture, one that sees some kind of mystical wisdom in the story that may possibly touch people in a kind of existential way, and the third camp, which I’m a part of, that believes in the literal, historical/grammatical interpretive model. I would suggest only two of these camps are remotely rational, and it’s not the middle one. If the writer would like to suggest that Eden’s story is some kind of, “literary vehicle by which to carry an important understanding forward into our own time”, the responsibility rests on his shoulders of this proponent to demonstrate that relevance, before assuming both of the other two camps are only paper houses. This is utter nonsense! You cannot possibly demonstrate there is any kind of significance to this Eden story unless it’s literal. The esoteric ramblings of this previous post hold far less possibility to be verifiable than the literal or atheistic positions.



[QUOTE=kofh2u]But, the whole ball of mythopaeic wax is belied by the prophecy of things to come:QUOTE]

Good theories possess predictive elements. I could only guess the author of this post must have failed science 101.

[mikeledo]

Interesting. Remember, however, Egypt's rise to even greater heights of power in the mid-second millenium BCE, after the Hyksos were defeated in 1540 BCE. This was the era of Egypt's new empire: Egyptian suzerainty extended south into Nubia and north through Syria-Palestine to Mesopotamia.
True, but a writer circa 2000 BCE would not have known this.

[kofh2u]

kofh2u:
]The author makes an interesting connection between the myth-like details of this surrealistic Eden environment. Trees of life and knowledge (of good and evil) are added to cold modern research. He mixes geological possibility with a hoped for metaphysical feasibility.

By demonstrating that the various stretches needed can be rationalized, we are being asked to accept the irrationality of the larger picture.

We are being asked to entertain a physucal place, one still present today, a place guarded by two mysterious creatures called Cherubim. These four faced winged creatures weild a firey sword in order to keep trespassers out. Yet, the four rivers are feed from one head and some are dried up. This is a place still existing according to the account, but we see neither the dried up rivers nor the gates.

The mythological style of writing about this Eden is ignored.

This is a story.

Get over the literal incongruities.
We are being asked to make the myth the factual meaning, rather than assume it was merely the vehicle.
The literary vehicle by which to carry an important understanding forward into our own time.

eprom:
Either you believe the story Fundamentally, is literally, or you are an Atheist.
(Sagan)

KOFHY:
This seems to terminate discussion.

eprom:
Let’s not pretend there aren’t at least three camps here:

1) One that would deny any relevance of Eden’s story to our modern culture,

(Atheists, remotely rational?)

2) one that sees some kind of mystical wisdom in the story that may possibly touch people in a kind of existential way,

(Irrational)

3) third camp, that believes in the literal, historical/grammatical interpretive model.

(Fundamentalist, remotely rational?)

KOFHY:
If I understand you properly, the irrationality is already established.


eprom:
If the writer would like to suggest that Eden’s story is some kind of, “literary vehicle by which to carry an important understanding forward into our own time”, the responsibility rests on his shoulders to demonstrate that relevance, before assuming both of the other two camps are only paper houses.

KOFHY:
Before?
The Fundamentalist view is widely held and preached. It has had a very long running start on any commentary I might make.
You can see that the premise I just offered is under immediate attack.

I believe that the first respondibility of this writer is to present exactly what yoj suggest ought follow.
But, to an open minded audience.

eprom:
This is utter nonsense!

KOFHY:
See!
You already are condemning the very premise of #2, the hypothesis of #2.

eprom:
You cannot possibly demonstrate there is any kind of significance to this Eden story unless it’s literal.

KOFHY:
Now, be honest.

Is THAT the Scientific Method?

To say, "You cannot possibly" ... smacks of the Galilleo Affair. Remember? The Pope refused to look into the telescope.

eprom:
The esoteric ramblings of this post hold far less possibility to be verifiable than the literal or atheistic positions.

KOFHY:
I always have wondered why Galilleo was so keen on telling those clerics about the fascinating teleoscope he had made. Why them?
I bet littld kids woild have loved to look!

kofh2u:
But, the whole ball of mythopaeic wax is belied by the prophecy of things to come:

eprom:
Good theories possess predictive elements.

KOFHY:
Yes.
The entire bible demonstrates this predictive aspect. The idea that scripture demonstrates avprrdictive ability is the first clue youmOUGHT have that it contains some science of Sociology, esoteric now only because we ourselves have not discovered it.

eprom:
I could only guess the author of this post must have failed science

KOFHY:
Now I know yoi are referring to me, not the bible theories I imply are invotporated in the vehicle of scriptue in general.

But, in my own defense,...

... and as a direct response to your incredulity as regards my inferences that an unnoticed wisdom of Socio-psychological Science is contained in these stories...

Rev. 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren, that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

[Lion]

Most of the comments I have read in this thread have been either critical of the story of Genesis or frankly don’t believe the story. This in a theology website!!!! Judging by the responses the majority are frank agnostics or who have absorbed modernist theories about reputed writers who lived and wrote their personal experences. Or else the thread has become the habitat of people who devote their writing skills to destroying those who believe the Bible to be the word of God.

The original question was where was the garden of Eden. I believe the garden was destroyed in the world wide flood as recorded in Genesis 6 to 9. People have a tendency to name towns and rivers in a new land with the same names they are familiar with from the old country, so the rivers got the same name. But they were not the same. The entire earth had been remolded as a result of the flood, so there is no use looking for the garden of eden. It doesn’t exist.

[kofh2u]

Most of the comments I have read in this thread have been either critical of the story of Genesis or frankly don’t believe the story. This in a theology website!!!! Judging by the responses the majority are frank agnostics or who have absorbed modernist theories about reputed writers who lived and wrote their personal experences. Or else the thread has become the habitat of people who devote their writing skills to destroying those who believe the Bible to be the word of God.

The original question was where was the garden of Eden. I believe the garden was destroyed in the world wide flood as recorded in Genesis 6 to 9. People have a tendency to name towns and rivers in a new land with the same names they are familiar with from the old country, so the rivers got the same name. But they were not the same. The entire earth had been remolded as a result of the flood, so there is no use looking for the garden of eden. It doesn’t exist.


I believe the story very much.

It is not a literal story, though.

It is a magic story, in the sense of literature that can carry itself forward into future generations. An epic. More, it has proven to capture the audience of other cultures.

I do not criticize those who are able to accept the irrationality of an impossible metaphysical literalism. These are people who were faithful in earlier times, when spirit worlds and ghosts, king arthur, and such tales were appropriate to our knowledge and mental capacities. They maintained faith in the Lord and their interpretation was effective for transmission of the Word into our own times.

Do not confuse Faith in men's interpretation of the bible with faith in Christ.

Flat earths, geocentricism, and spontaneous generation of life forms were common beliefs even among the secular and pagan/gentile populations.
Scripture was written for all seven ages of man, and we in thiis Age of Information need grow, awaken, and read scripture as the rational, intelligent, wise commentary it is. For it was written for us and our times, inspite of its long residence in medieval thought.

Dan. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words (of the Old Testament), and seal the book (of death and hell), even to (2K4AD), the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, (traveling freely by land, sea, and even air), and knowledge (in an Age of Enlightenment) shall be increased.











To follow the rational meaning of Torah is not to adopt an ancient position and insist on silence there after.
That is not Empiricism.
The Scientific Method of Empiricism says that a comprehensive Hypothesis should guide our thinking, rather than the rigid dogma of ancient waves of traditional metaphysical religious interpretations that organized priesthoods use to sway society. Galilleo?

[mikeledo]

Most of the comments I have read in this thread have been either critical of the story of Genesis or frankly don’t believe the story. This in a theology website!!!! Judging by the responses the majority are frank agnostics or who have absorbed modernist theories about reputed writers who lived and wrote their personal experences. Or else the thread has become the habitat of people who devote their writing skills to destroying those who believe the Bible to be the word of God.

The original question was where was the garden of Eden. I believe the garden was destroyed in the world wide flood as recorded in Genesis 6 to 9. People have a tendency to name towns and rivers in a new land with the same names they are familiar with from the old country, so the rivers got the same name. But they were not the same. The entire earth had been remolded as a result of the flood, so there is no use looking for the garden of eden. It doesn’t exist.
Just because this is a theology web site, doesn't mean we must check our minds at the door. The Catholic church, the largest single Christian denomination teaches that the Garden and Flood did not really happen. They are parables, or stories to inspire us.

[Lion]

quote Kofh2u
I believe the story very much.

It is not a literal story, though.

It is a magic story, in the sense of literature that can carry itself forward into future generations. An epic. More, it has proven to capture the audience of other cultures.

I do not criticize those who are able to accept the irrationality of an impossible metaphysical literalism. These are people who were faithful in earlier times, when spirit worlds and ghosts, king arthur, and such tales were appropriate to our knowledge and mental capacities. They maintained faith in the Lord and their interpretation was effective for transmission of the Word into our own times.

Do not confuse Faith in men's interpretation of the bible with faith in Christ.

To follow the rational meaning of Torah is not to adopt an ancient position and insist on silence thereafter.
That is not Empiricism.
------------------------
I had to look up the definition of that word. What I found surprised me.
Dictionary definition
Empirical A sect of ancient Greek physicians who followed emprical methods; anyone who follows an empirical method, a quack, a charlatan. Pertaining to or derived from, or guided by experience or observation alone; without regard to regard to science or theory esp in medical practice: hence, unscientific; charlatinic. empiricism Empirical method or practice, esp undue reliance upon experience; quackery, in philosphy, the doctrine that all knowledge is derived from experience.
-----------------
quote
The Scientific Method of Empiricism says that a comprehensive Hypothesis should guide our thinking, rather than the rigid dogma of ancient waves of traditional metaphysical religious interpretations that organized priesthoods use to sway society. Galilleo?
-----------------------


You evidently class the Genesis story of creation and the flood as being a myth. How can you say you believe it when you obvously class it in the same category as king Arthur and dragons and other mythical tales, and say it is an irrationality of an impossible metaphysical literalism.

You say the story of the flood is an impossibilty. You are the same class Peter was talking about.
2Pet. 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pet. 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pet. 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pet. 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pet. 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Christ mentioned Noah and the flood.
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Notice this: They were willingly ignorant. They didn’t WANT TO KNOW. That is the same sin the people before the flood committed.

Empricism relies on experience and does not allow for something out of the ordinary, a miracle. The flood was extaordinary, but it happened. Can God perform miracles? YES. What is a miracle? A mracle is something for which there is no ordinary explanation. To explain what I mean, here is an example.

The earth came from the hand of God perfect in form and climate. It never rained, Gen 2:5, and apparently the climate was even all the year, with no cold polar regions, This is based on the word of God.
Gen. 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

This simple statement says that seasons with cold and heat wil not cease. Apparently heat and cold were not the usual conditions before.

The journal Science published an article By Sager and Koppers of Texas A&M, in Jan, 2000, about how the earth’s poles had wandered. This verifies the fact the the earth had been tilted and the north pole had wandered from Scandinavia to the gulf of Alaska. When it happened, of course is subject to interpretation. The fact that it happened is the fact we live with. It has settled at about 23.5 degrees to the plane of the earth’s orbit. This is why we have seasons. This agrees with the story in Genesis 8.

Sager and Koppers didn’t say what caused the wandering, but it must have been a big jolt to tip an object the size of the earth. In fact the side article in the same issue speculated on the effect on the continents.

The continents are not firmly fastened as one might think. There is a semimolten layer several hundred miles deep called the mantle under the crust we live on. At times the mantle breaks through the crust and we have a volcano. So when a sudden shock of tipping the earth happened all kinds of unexpected things happened. Continents slid. Oceans appeared where there was none before.

Let’s look at the story in Genesis.
Gen. 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

What does it mean, the fountains of the great deep were broken up? Great water spouts burst out of the earth. Where did the water come from? Apparently there were immense amounts of water under the surface and when the shock of tipping the earth’s axis the imense gyroscopic forces released caused the continents to slide into new positions.

For instance, the bight of Africa more or less fits the bulge of South America. The islands that form the Falkland chain between Antarctica and South America appear as if they had been dragged and left behind. There are other examples. For instance, India seems to have been pushed up against Asia and wrinkled up the Himalayas.

There is an immense amount of heat just below the crust of the earth. Oil wells are hot because they are penetrating close to the hot mantle of the earth.

The most invisible but real feature is a discovery of the midocean ridges, discovered since 1945, a 44,000 mile long chain of volcanic eruptions that circle the earth and run the length of the Atlantic and up the 150th meridian, past the Galapagos, through the gulf of Califonia past Los Angeles and San Francisco and out to sea. This accounts for the numerous earthquakes in California.

The National Geographic Society published a map called the earth’s fractured surface, a map showing the ocean bottom. It looks like a wrinkled dried prune, with thousands of fractures. The society magazine had a story about a “black smoker,” an underwater hot vent that emits 700 degree water and has a colony of blind shrimp nearby.

The ridges have numerous volcanoes that put out lava and hot water. This is evidently a remnant of the flood spoken about in Genesis 7:11. Is this a myth, a fanciful tale handed down by word of mouth? Hardly. We are talking about facts. The words in Genesis are the words of a man who was there and wrote what he experienced. The midocean ridges apparently are artifacts left from the fountains of the great deep.

These are evidences of a global flood and should be enough to convince all but the most hardened skeptic.

[kofh2u]

quote Kofh2u
I believe the story very much.

It is not a literal story, though.

It is a magic story, in the sense of literature that can carry itself forward into future generations. An epic. More, it has proven to capture the audience of other cultures.

I do not criticize those who are able to accept the irrationality of an impossible metaphysical literalism. These are people who were faithful in earlier times, when spirit worlds and ghosts, king arthur, and such tales were appropriate to our knowledge and mental capacities. They maintained faith in the Lord and their interpretation was effective for transmission of the Word into our own times.

Do not confuse Faith in men's interpretation of the bible with faith in Christ.

To follow the rational meaning of Torah is not to adopt an ancient position and insist on silence thereafter.
That is not Empiricism.
------------------------
I had to look up the definition of that word. What I found surprised me.
Dictionary definition
Empirical A sect of ancient Greek physicians who followed emprical methods; anyone who follows an empirical method, a quack, a charlatan. Pertaining to or derived from, or guided by experience or observation alone; without regard to regard to science or theory esp in medical practice: hence, unscientific; charlatinic. empiricism Empirical method or practice, esp undue reliance upon experience; quackery, in philosphy, the doctrine that all knowledge is derived from experience.
-----------------
quote
The Scientific Method of Empiricism says that a comprehensive Hypothesis should guide our thinking, rather than the rigid dogma of ancient waves of traditional metaphysical religious interpretations that organized priesthoods use to sway society. Galilleo?
-----------------------


You evidently class the Genesis story of creation and the flood as being a myth. How can you say you believe it when you obvously class it in the same category as king Arthur and dragons and other mythical tales, and say it is an irrationality of an impossible metaphysical literalism.

You say the story of the flood is an impossibilty. You are the same class Peter was talking about.
2Pet. 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pet. 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pet. 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pet. 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pet. 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Christ mentioned Noah and the flood.
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Notice this: They were willingly ignorant. They didn’t WANT TO KNOW. That is the same sin the people before the flood committed.

Empricism relies on experience and does not allow for something out of the ordinary, a miracle. The flood was extaordinary, but it happened. Can God perform miracles? YES. What is a miracle? A mracle is something for which there is no ordinary explanation. To explain what I mean, here is an example.

The earth came from the hand of God perfect in form and climate. It never rained, Gen 2:5, and apparently the climate was even all the year, with no cold polar regions, This is based on the word of God.
Gen. 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

This simple statement says that seasons with cold and heat wil not cease. Apparently heat and cold were not the usual conditions before.

The journal Science published an article By Sager and Koppers of Texas A&M, in Jan, 2000, about how the earth’s poles had wandered. This verifies the fact the the earth had been tilted and the north pole had wandered from Scandinavia to the gulf of Alaska. When it happened, of course is subject to interpretation. The fact that it happened is the fact we live with. It has settled at about 23.5 degrees to the plane of the earth’s orbit. This is why we have seasons. This agrees with the story in Genesis 8.

Sager and Koppers didn’t say what caused the wandering, but it must have been a big jolt to tip an object the size of the earth. In fact the side article in the same issue speculated on the effect on the continents.

The continents are not firmly fastened as one might think. There is a semimolten layer several hundred miles deep called the mantle under the crust we live on. At times the mantle breaks through the crust and we have a volcano. So when a sudden shock of tipping the earth happened all kinds of unexpected things happened. Continents slid. Oceans appeared where there was none before.

Let’s look at the story in Genesis.
Gen. 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

What does it mean, the fountains of the great deep were broken up? Great water spouts burst out of the earth. Where did the water come from? Apparently there were immense amounts of water under the surface and when the shock of tipping the earth’s axis the imense gyroscopic forces released caused the continents to slide into new positions.

For instance, the bight of Africa more or less fits the bulge of South America. The islands that form the Falkland chain between Antarctica and South America appear as if they had been dragged and left behind. There are other examples. For instance, India seems to have been pushed up against Asia and wrinkled up the Himalayas.

There is an immense amount of heat just below the crust of the earth. Oil wells are hot because they are penetrating close to the hot mantle of the earth.

The most invisible but real feature is a discovery of the midocean ridges, discovered since 1945, a 44,000 mile long chain of volcanic eruptions that circle the earth and run the length of the Atlantic and up the 150th meridian, past the Galapagos, through the gulf of Califonia past Los Angeles and San Francisco and out to sea. This accounts for the numerous earthquakes in California.

The National Geographic Society published a map called the earth’s fractured surface, a map showing the ocean bottom. It looks like a wrinkled dried prune, with thousands of fractures. The society magazine had a story about a “black smoker,” an underwater hot vent that emits 700 degree water and has a colony of blind shrimp nearby.

The ridges have numerous volcanoes that put out lava and hot water. This is evidently a remnant of the flood spoken about in Genesis 7:11. Is this a myth, a fanciful tale handed down by word of mouth? Hardly. We are talking about facts. The words in Genesis are the words of a man who was there and wrote what he experienced. The midocean ridges apparently are artifacts left from the fountains of the great deep.

These are evidences of a global flood and should be enough to convince all but the most hardened skeptic.


First, let me acknowledge that your literalism concerning the reading of Genesis does not mean:

"...we must check our minds at the door."

I fully appreciate that especially, in times long past, this lkteral reading was not only all that men had to render meaning.

Before the Scientific Revolution @1600, prior to the age of Empirical Science, men were totally convinced by stories that were grounded in superstition, Platonian conjectures, an fables proported to be true.
Certainly, the bible would have never have been transmitted from those early days if it had been written in anything but metaphor and analogy. All those facts you enumerate from National Geographic, everyone founded upon Empiical Science, are rational to us, but would have been unbelievable, unacceptable in times past.

Truly, the truth is more miraculous than people in those days might have imagined or tolerated.

I respect the long tradition of simple faith in what the bible says.
I complement the ability of ancient men to make a case for the plausibility of metaphors as representing the literal truth.

It was not literal truth, IMO, but truth nevertheless, metaphorically expressed.

Matt. 12:20 A bruised reed (of scriptural interpretion) shall he not
break, and smoking flax (of misguided dogma) shall he not quench, till (after) he send forth (good) judgment unto victory (in ecumenical amalgamation).

Think of what I say is a rational and empirical interpretation, not as a replacement or substitution for your literalism.

Try to understand the interpretation as complementary to other ways of understanding and accepting the words of the Bible.

We know today that men have seven different types of Inteelgence. They are are true but merely differ in perspective.
Logical/mathematical Intelligence, that which is one of the two pillars of Empiricism, is no more "right" that the Intuitive Intelligence of spatial/visual intelligence. It is very similar to men seeing things one way, while women have an entirely different take on matters. Logic of the superego is like oil on the water of our intuition sourced from the Anima.

Consider that the ancient language of the bible writers is more incomprehemsible to our reading today than the disparity between connotaion of the vocabular used.

Such a hypothesis as I am suggesting to you, different strokes for differ folks, is that the bible meant to transmit the message through many social, cultural, and academic stages of human growth and maturity.

I would read if differently, in this great Age of Information, since I live in a paradigm of understanding that insists on rational, factual, empirically supported truths.

The bible is magic in that such a present accomodation is possible, without denying your own from another time and place.

[Arlan]

[QUOTE=Socrates]That's right. Augustine and Luther realised this.



Perhaps so. But don't forget that the original writer was probably not Moses but maybe Adam himself, while Moses was the editor of pre-existing tablets. Supporting evidence is the many editorial comments (e.g. Gen. 26:33, 32:32). Sometimes the ancient tablets were left alone, e.g. 10:19 where directions are matter-of-factly given to Sodom, a city long destroyed and under the Dead Sea by Moses' time.

**** Arlan ~ First correction - So Adam was the original writer of Genesus on pre-existing tablets. Where did you read this? The Genesus Scripture you quote is not supporting evidence at all. Evidence would have to come from an outside source.

Second Correction ~ Sodom was destroyed but destroyed 500 years before Lot's time and the town is not under the dead sea. Archaeologist excelvated it back in the 1960's and found that many thousands of people live there from about 3500BC down to about 2300 BC and then not again till Roman times. Lot was alive about 1850 BC so could not have lived there with live people. It was a dead town when he was alive and had been for 500 years. arlan b.

[mikeledo]

[QUOTE=Socrates]That's right. Augustine and Luther realised this.



Perhaps so. But don't forget that the original writer was probably not Moses but maybe Adam himself, while Moses was the editor of pre-existing tablets. Supporting evidence is the many editorial comments (e.g. Gen. 26:33, 32:32). Sometimes the ancient tablets were left alone, e.g. 10:19 where directions are matter-of-factly given to Sodom, a city long destroyed and under the Dead Sea by Moses' time.

**** Arlan ~ First correction - So Adam was the original writer of Genesus on pre-existing tablets. Where did you read this? The Genesus Scripture you quote is not supporting evidence at all. Evidence would have to come from an outside source.

Second Correction ~ Sodom was destroyed but destroyed 500 years before Lot's time and the town is not under the dead sea. Archaeologist excelvated it back in the 1960's and found that many thousands of people live there from about 3500BC down to about 2300 BC and then not again till Roman times. Lot was alive about 1850 BC so could not have lived there with live people. It was a dead town when he was alive and had been for 500 years. arlan b.

Your second correction shows the exact problems I came up with in attempting to assign Biblical chronology. Let's add the fact that Hittites were a contemporary of Abraham and they didn't exist until 1850 BCE or so. And Sodom was destroyed 500 years earlier. Heshbon was an Iron Age city which didn't exist until circa 1200 BCE (conquered by Moses) and Jericho and Ai (conquered by Joshua a few years later) were destroyed in the Eraly Bronze age about 1000 years earlier.

Archaelogical evidence for an Iron Age United Monarchy is a joke. The age of the Great Canaanite City States was in the MB period.

Much of the Bible has similar myths to ancient Mesopotamia circa 2000 BCE, and some of it appears to be history of a later period.

This doesn't even begin to cover the literary problems.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=Arlan]

Your second correction shows the exact problems I came up with in attempting to assign Biblical chronology. Let's add the fact that Hittites were a contemporary of Abraham and they didn't exist until 1850 BCE or so. And Sodom was destroyed 500 years earlier. Heshbon was an Iron Age city which didn't exist until circa 1200 BCE (conquered by Moses) and Jericho and Ai (conquered by Joshua a few years later) were destroyed in the Eraly Bronze age about 1000 years earlier.

Archaelogical evidence for an Iron Age United Monarchy is a joke. The age of the Great Canaanite City States was in the MB period.

Much of the Bible has similar myths to ancient Mesopotamia circa 2000 BCE, and some of it appears to be history of a later period.

This doesn't even begin to cover the literary problems.

These would be more historical and not literary problems and they are the reason that I consider the OT in particular to be a literary narrative reflecting the worldview of the people of the time and not a historical document. The disciplines of archeology combined with literature like the Bible, Babylonian and Egyptian writings may be used to construct a historical frame of reference for these events and bring them into focus as a history of the ancient Middle East.

The anthropological concept of an Eden is an interesting topic, but it should not be taken to strongly to justify religious presupositions. Taken in a more human context like other legends and myths of the different peoples of the world the stroy becomes more real.

[mikeledo]

[QUOTE=mikeledo]

These would be more historical and not literary problems and they are the reason that I consider the OT in particular to be a literary narrative reflecting the worldview of the people of the time and not a historical document. The disciplines of archeology combined with literature like the Bible, Babylonian and Egyptian writings may be used to construct a historical frame of reference for these events and bring them into focus as a history of the ancient Middle East.

The anthropological concept of an Eden is an interesting topic, but it should not be taken to strongly to justify religious presupositions. Taken in a more human context like other legends and myths of the different peoples of the world the stroy becomes more real.

I would agree with you. However there seems to be a historical basis for many of the myths or tales in the Bible. I do not believe in the miracles surrounding the stories nor do I believe stories not supported by the records in stone. We can use demonstrated ancient techniques from the Gilgamesh Epic to show the Bible was a living document and later events were superimposed on an existing cosmic myth. Biblical Eden is the Sumerian tale of Dilmun transposed.

[Tim Locke]

I was reading Genesis again the other day. As always, I keep wondering where Eden was. I would say it was lost in the flood except that the language seems to indicate that the writer was speaking of a places that could identify where it was.
[snip]
there was one river, which watered the garden. After the garden it split.
I know some believe Eden was Iraq, but I wonder? One river encompassed Africa I think. So I guess what i want is some help answering my curiosity. Was the writer talking of something that existed in his day? If so then we should be able to clearly find Eden. What are the modern names of the rivers Gihon and Hiddekel? Those two rivers frustrate me.
Finally, what does archeological evidence show concerning where Eden was and so on?
I sure hope these questions made sense.
The best theory I've seen is the one put forward by the British Egyptologist David Rohl.

Rohl has written at least three books on the period of time from Adam and Eve to King Solomon (note: the date is of first publish, the links are to the paperbacks which were published later):

1995: A Test of Time (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0099416565/qid=1133882977/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-4152031-0613418)
1999: Legend: The Genesis of Civilization (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/009979991X/qid=1133882977/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl/202-4152031-0613418)
2003: From Eden to Exile: The Epic History of the People of the Bible (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0099415666/qid=1133882977/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl/202-4152031-0613418)

(More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Rohl)

The following two books are of interest in this thread:

Legend - The Genesis of Civilization. (Eden to the founding of Egypt)
From Eden to Exile. (expands on the first part of 'Legend')

Rohl believes he has found an error in the chronology of the Egyptian Pharoahs. Once corrected, the chronology is shifted by several decades.

Many modern archaeologists say that they do not find the Bible in the ground, at least not when the Bible says it happened. What Rohl has found is that, after correcting/shifting the chronology, the Bible IS found in the ground at the right time after all. Most of this information is in 'A Test of Time'.

In 'Legend', Rohl begins with his theory of where Eden is. In 'From Eden to Exile', Rohl expands on it. Let's take a look at Genesis (The NET translation is available at www.bible.org):

9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow from the soil, every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food. (Now the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were in the middle of the orchard.)10 Now a river flows from Eden to water the orchard, and from there it divides into four headstreams. 11 The name of the first is Pishon; it runs through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is pure; pearls and lapis lazuli are also there). 13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it runs through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is Tigris; it runs along the east side of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.
20 The man named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
24 When he drove the man out, he placed on the eastern side of the orchard in Eden angelic sentries who used the flame of a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life.
16 So Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
There are numerous points of information listed here which might be used to prove whether we have found Eden:

A garden in the East of an area named Eden.
A garden in the East of an area named Eden.
A tree of life in the middle of the garden.
A tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden.
A river flowing from [another part of] Eden to water the garden, *
which then parts/divides becoming four [river] heads.
A first river named Pishon, *
which flows through the entirety of a land named Havilah, *
which is known for pure gold, *
and pearls (variously translated: bdellium [gum/aromatic resin], bdolach, carbuncle, rare perfumes), *
and lapis lazuli (variously translated: onyx, emerald, shoham stone). *
A second river named Gihon, *
which flows through the entirety of a land named Cush. *
A third river named Tigris, *
which runs along the east side of Assyria. *
A fourth river named Euphrates. *
Adam's wife, Eve, was the Mother of all Living *
Cherubim on the Eastern side of the garden in Eden, *
who used a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life.
Nod to the East of Eden *

Rohl claims to have found at least these 14 asterisked points and potentially a few more points from this list. Some are detailed in 'Legend' and more are detailed in 'From Eden to Exile'.

There have been television documentaries made of 'A Test of Time' and 'Legend' and I think there was also one for 'Pharoahs & Kings'.

Rohl used to have a web site up but it went down for updating a year or two ago and doesn't seem to have returned. I think the domain name was www.nunki.net.

[shunyadragon]

I would agree with you. However there seems to be a historical basis for many of the myths or tales in the Bible. I do not believe in the miracles surrounding the stories nor do I believe stories not supported by the records in stone. We can use demonstrated ancient techniques from the Gilgamesh Epic to show the Bible was a living document and later events were superimposed on an existing cosmic myth. Biblical Eden is the Sumerian tale of Dilmun transposed.

There is a historic basis for these stories like the flood and Eden. An important cyclic event that pays a distinct role in Middle East history is a severe devastating drought when rains vertually end for seven or more years that occurs every ~1500 years with a lesser drought cycle of ~750 years. These drought events can turn any Eden to dust and major rivers dry up.

[shunyadragon]

I just spent the better part of a week with OT Professor Richard Pratt from Reformed Theological Seminary -- his spin (an one held by a number of ancient Jewish scholars) was that Eden was at the site of Jerusalem. As such, it was "the mountain of God." This was seen as the one place that is at the center of the world.

Not sure that I buy it, but it is an interesting theory nevertheless.

Biblically the Garden of Eden and the Fall are more likely related to one or more of the world wide catastrophic drought events that regularly devastate local and regional regions every ~1500 years, with a possible lesser event on a ~750 year cycle. These occur in conjunction with the progressive drying of the arid belt which includes the Sahara. These events are known to virtually devastate regions and civilizations that were once verdant and lush Edens. In and around the Middle East there are numerous abandoned ruined ancient cities are located in what were once verdent paradises. This happened to the Maya of Guatamala, and the Old kingdom of Egypt. One of these events may have also partly inspired the story of Moses and Exodus from Egypt. Many of the candidates mentioned are potential Edens that suddenly became deserts and the few survivers were driven out of Eden.

Sorry for this repeat, I did not realize I posted this before.

[eprom]

For a lot more info on the Eden in Israel perspective, you can go here:

http://www.faith-friends.com/

The theory suggests that Eden's first river went from Mount Zion, through the garden in the Mount of Olives, and then underground where the Dead Sea is now located, re-appering as springs at the headwaters of the four rivers mentioned in Genesis 2. Lots of Biblical refferences to support the model and the implications of this proposition.

[shunyadragon]

The best theory I've seen is the one put forward by the British Egyptologist David Rohl.

Rohl has written at least three books on the period of time from Adam and Eve to King Solomon (note: the date is of first publish, the links are to the paperbacks which were published later):

Rohl claims to have found at least these 14 asterisked points and potentially a few more points from this list. Some are detailed in 'Legend' and more are detailed in 'From Eden to Exile'.

There have been television documentaries made of 'A Test of Time' and 'Legend' and I think there was also one for 'Pharoahs & Kings'.

Rohl used to have a web site up but it went down for updating a year or two ago and doesn't seem to have returned. I think the domain name was www.nunki.net. (http://www.nunki.net.)

I am familiar with Rohl, and find his work interesting. I bo believe he stretches things a bit to make them fit. It would be incorrect to say that historians do not find history in the Bible, they do, but not in an accurate chronological and coherent way. For Biblical history to come into clear focus, you have fit the pieces of the puzzle from many sources, and basic archeological research would be the standard, not the Bible.

After reading over the posts and sources cited I conclude that the depiction of the Garden of Eden was the 'known world', which includes many different places in the Middle East rolled into one narrative. I believe Eden could be a depiction of the lost paradise due to the devastating crippling cyclic droughts that desertified large regions of North Africa and the Middle East. As is nnormal for primative peoples, natural disasters are Divine instruments of punishment.

[eprom]

Interesting article on the location of Eden from The Book of Jubilees – Just wondering if anyone might see some holes in the idea. Go here and scrole down to Eden in The Book of Jubilees. http://www.faith-friends.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=44

Includs maps and quite a detailed explination.

[DanN1]

Eden was in extreme northwestern Iran near the Turkish border, give or take 150 miles. Though I have evidence I shall cite absolutely none.

[Snooky]

For what its worth:
My son's Christian Church teaches Eden is Jerusalem. Also, in the Book of Jubliees, (can't quote, as it was not my copy) the author believed it was Jerusalem.

[runtmc2jc]

Rivers do not normally (if ever) break into four heads and flow in four different directions except in the case of a Delta such as the Nile. This could also have been descriptive of the area where the Tigris and the Euphrates flow into the Persian Gulf. Furthermore, we read that the Pishon "flows around the whole land of Havilah."

Havilah is a reference to lands in northern Arabia where the descendants of Ishmael made their homes (Genesis 25:18).

In the 1990's, Boston University scientist Farouk El-Baz used photos from satellites orbiting the earth and space Shuttle Imaging Radar to locate an underground river which now runs under a portion of the desert of Saudi Arabia (James A. Sauer, "The River Runs Dry," Biblical Archaeology Review, Vol. 22, No. 4, July/August 1996, pp. 52-54, 57, 64 and Molly Dewsnap, "The Kuwait River," Biblical Archaeology Review, Vol. 22, No. 4, July/August 1996, p. 55.).

In Kuwait, a dry riverbed (Wadi Al-Batin) cuts through limestone and appears to disappear into the desert of Saudi Arabia. Actually, the river ran underground along a fault line under the sand. From the Hyaz Mountains in Saudi Arabia, this river carried granite and basalt pebbles 650 miles northeast to deposit them at its delta in Kuwait near the Persian Gulf.

Some have theorized that this lost river corresponds to biblical descriptions of the Pishon River. This one discovery was enough to make Sauer, the former curator of the Harvard Semitic Museum’s archaeological collections, reverse his previous skepticism regarding the historical accuracy of the Bible.

The Gihon is said to flow around the whole land of Cush (Genesis 2:13). This presents a difficulty in that Cush was the land to the south of Egypt. However, there was also an area to the east of the Tigris River which was known as Cush. If this is the case, then this could be a reference to the Karun River which flows into the Tigris and Euphrates just before they enter the Persian Gulf.

I agree with this assessment........saw a program recently - sat photos showing ancient riverbed on the Saudi/Kuwait side as well as the Karun on the Irani side - which would place Eden probably underwater in the northern extremes of the Persian Gulf....makes more sense than most theories. Thanks for the info on the "other" Cush.