So, what happens to unbaptized believers?

[Freak]

I have met a few posters on TWEB that believe, incorrectly I might add, that unless you are baptized in water you have no hope of salvation. What do you think? Do believers who placed their faith in Christ but who have failed to be baptized in water in danger of hell?

What role does water have in ones salvation, if any?

My position on this is this:

I believe justification is by faith and faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

To be right with God, all one needs is to be justified by faith in Christ. Water is merely symbolic of that faith you have place in Christ. Water is incapable of saving but Christ can.

And if genuine believers do believe water is essential for salvation should he/she be branded as heretics and their teachings as heretical?

Thoughts?

[spl_cadet]

Such a case would probably fall under either invincible ignorance or baptism of desire.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. 60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

[Xmansmommy]

Well Freak,
I may offend some people by my post but, you asked for thoughts so..... I got saved in September of 2001. I have not been water baptised since I got saved. I have however, been baptised By the Spirit at the point of my salvation. (1 Cor 12:13) I have not, nor will I get baptised in water. I feel that to do so is showing my lack of faith in the precious blood of Jesus Christ who paid for ALL of my sins at Calvary. It's Jesus plus nothing.

Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

My favorite....Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(One of these days I'm gonna have a license plate made with this one on it, just have to think of an airbrush picture that would do this passage justice. Any ideas?) :thumb:

[Freak]

03-07-2003 @ 11:07 PM
Xmansmommy:

Well Freak,
I may offend some people by my post but, you asked for thoughts so..... I got saved in September of 2001. I have not been water baptised since I got saved. I have however, been baptised By the Spirit at the point of my salvation. (1 Cor 12:13) I have not, nor will I get baptised in water. I feel that to do so is showing my lack of faith in the precious blood of Jesus Christ who paid for ALL of my sins at Calvary. It's Jesus plus nothing.

Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

My favorite....Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(One of these days I'm gonna have a license plate made with this one on it, just have to think of an airbrush picture that would do this passage justice. Any ideas?) :thumb:

Great post. Well posters do you think xmansmommy is missing out on salvation becuase shes hasn't been water baptized? Is Jesus enough or do we need that water?

[InquisitorKind]

03-07-2003 @ 08:24 PM
Freak:



Great post. Well posters do you think xmansmommy is missing out on salvation becuase shes hasn't been water baptized? Is Jesus enough or do we need that water?

I think there is a misunderstanding about baptism here...there isn't a "need" for the water, but baptism is commanded and as such, must be obeyed. It's an act of obedience and a public display of faith. Although I am not to judge salvation, I do believe xmansmommy should be baptized, even though it's simply a matter of obedience.

~Matt

[InquisitorKind]

Deleted post. There is no other text here.

[kiwimac]

Freak

The sacraments are simply an outward show of an already existing inward grace & so baptism is no more necessary than talking in tongues is for salvation. It is, however, telling that most Christians baptise because Jesus was baptised and if its good enough for the founder of the firm ....


Kiwimac

[Apollos]

Baptism is represented by Paul as a form, figure, or likeness of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. There is no other thing that is so represented.

-Not faith.
-Not repentance.
-Not confession.

Only baptism. In baptism, the old man of sin within us is buried, just as Christ was buried, and is transformed and resurrected by God as a new creature. It is then, and not until then, that we are "free from sin." Only then are we fit to be called "servants of righteousness" (Rom. 6:17-18).

Now this text (Romans 6:3-5) presents a serious problem for those who teach that salvation precedes baptism.

The popular interpretation of this passage is that by baptism, a person who is already saved identifies with Christ's death, burial and resurrection in a symbolic way. But if you stop and think about the ramifications of this for just a bit, this is really a scary doctrine. Let me show you why. Paul describes baptism as a "burial" and likens it to the death and burial of Christ. But now folks come along and tell us that when a man is baptized, he is "already saved."

Unless I'm way off on this, I've always thought that a person who was unsaved was "dead" and a person who was saved was "alive." Isn't that how the scriptures describe these two kinds of people? How is it then that folks today want to bury someone alive! Have they no shame?! Perhaps that's how it's done in other parts of the country, but here in Oklahoma, we normally bury just the dead ones. If a fellow's still alive, why we ordinarily try to keep him that way and we have found that it is much easier to do this before we bury 'em. (Of course, this doesn't apply to those guys on death row. We try to kill them as fast as we can.)

You know, I've got a hunch that's pretty much how they did it in Paul's day too. Just bury the dead ones and let the live ones go. And if I'm right about that, then it would seem to me that when Paul says that we are "buried with him by baptism into death" he had in mind folks who were spiritually dead, folks who were lost. In fact, if you were to bury a fellow who had already been saved when he believed, then why didn't he already have "newness of life?" Surely no one is going to tell me that you're saved when you believe but you keep that old man alive until you are baptized?

Now I've been poking a little fun to make a point, but I think it's a point that needs to dealt with. But there is another side of this to think about as well. I'm not going to use humor on this one though, for it is much too serious for that. In fact, I would suggest that if the commonly stated position on Romans 6:3-6 is correct and baptism is to be administered to those who are already saved (read "alive"), then Christianity itself is at risk!

How? Simply in this:

Our baptism in water is "like" the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3-5, 17-18). If we bury "live" (read, saved) people in baptism, and if this is the "likeness" of what Jesus did, then the only conclusion that we can draw is that Jesus must have also been alive when they buried Him! The ramifications of such a doctrine are far-reaching, threatening the foundation of Christianity itself. If Jesus was alive when they buried Him, then He didn't die on the cross! And if He didn't die on the cross, then He could not be our sacrifice!

Furthermore, if He did not die on the cross, then the resurrection was a hoax for you don't "resurrect" someone who never died. I believe that it was a dead and lifeless body that was taken off that cross and buried in Joseph's tomb. In order for our baptism to be a "like figure" of that, we must also bury a dead man, that is, we must baptize sinners!

Water baptism is the means chosen by God through which man appropriates the salvation God offers man through His grace !! :thumb:

[Apollos]

Allow me to give an example to clarify the difference between likeness and symbolism.

The caduceus: It is a symbol of the medical profession. It represents a profession.
Its likeness is that of a serpent on a pole. It looks like, it is similar to a snake on a pole.

Baptism is a likeness. The passage says baptism is like, it is similar to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
But our baptism does not represent *His* death, burial, & resurrection. Nothing we do can do that.

Baptism into Christ is OUR death, burial, and resurrection. When one is baptized, they have their OWN death (to flesh & sin), their own burial (in water, into Christ, into His death), and their own resurrection (to walk in a newness of life).

In baptism, these are the things that actually happen (in the working of God – Col. 2:12). In baptism, these events take place! They are not symbolic of what happens, they ARE what happens.

[freeontheinside]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
03-07-2003 @ 11:07 PM
Xmansmommy:

Well Freak,
I may offend some people by my post but, you asked for thoughts so..... I got saved in September of 2001. I have not been water baptised since I got saved. I have however, been baptised By the Spirit at the point of my salvation. (1 Cor 12:13) I have not, nor will I get baptised in water. I feel that to do so is showing my lack of faith in the precious blood of Jesus Christ who paid for ALL of my sins at Calvary. It's Jesus plus nothing.

Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

My favorite....Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(One of these days I'm gonna have a license plate made with this one on it, just have to think of an airbrush picture that would do this passage justice. Any ideas?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salvation is not dependent upon the act of baptism but it is a command by the Lord and that means it should be followed. That however is between you and the Lord.

Freak,

I guess I would line up on the side of baptism is a representation of the death, burial, ressurection of the Lord. Baptism is an outward showing of who we are on the inside. We are merly identifyinmg ourselves with our Lord.

[Xmansmommy]

Let me ask to whom this outward sign of an inward grace would benefit? I am IN Christ, baptised by the Holy Spirit INTO His Body. I have no need to identify with Him, as I am a member of His Body. Sealed by the Holy Spirit, done by the operation of God. What more can man, or a baptismal font for that matter, do to better seal me? If God places me into Christ upon believing the gospel of my salvation, I'm satisfied, as I believe, is He.

Grace and peace,
Linda

[AcousticJS]

03-09-2003 @ 04:53 AM
Xmansmommy:

Let me ask to whom this outward sign of an inward grace would benefit? I am IN Christ, baptised by the Holy Spirit INTO His Body. I have no need to identify with Him, as I am a member of His Body. Sealed by the Holy Spirit, done by the operation of God. What more can man, or a baptismal font for that matter, do to better seal me? If God places me into Christ upon believing the gospel of my salvation, I'm satisfied, as I believe, is He.


If Jesus does actually want water baptism then how can it not benefit you? Or are we saying that Jesus wants us to do things that are bad for you? I would suggest that for you, baptism would actually be a further expression of faith since you don't see much of a need for it, but would be obeying the Lord in faith that He means well for you.

God bless
Jon

PS. Have you considered the case of Cornelius in Acts 10 who, even though he had believed and received (been baptised in) the Holy Spirit was still baptised in water? Baptism in the Spirit didn't suggest to Peter that water baptism was no longer necessary.

[Sozo]

Xmansmommy is correct! There is a great deal of applying verses that are referring to the baptism with the Spirit as though they were speaking of baptism with water, which they are not.

John said: "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

That passage refers to "this" baptism...

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

John had offered a baptism for repentance, "and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins", but Jesus was baptized to offer us the baptism of the Spirit...

"The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized."

Jesus was not baptized for a repetance of sins. Jesus was free of sin.

Even some of Jesus' final words relayed this important contrast...

And gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," [He said], "you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Water baptism continued in the early church to identify the Jews to Jesus as the Christ. But, Paul himself claimed that baptism in water diminished the role of the cross...

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void."

Yet Paul clearly spoke of the baptism with the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ...

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."

"For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

Paul claimed that there is only one baptism...

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

Our being buried with Him in baptism, has nothing to do with water baptism, but the description of us no longer being "in the flesh", but "in the Spirit"...

"For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."

[Theolog]

No matter how you cut it “Water Baptism” is; cultural, symbolic, metaphorical and esoteric, commanded, misunderstood, a work of man, and unnecessary for salvation.

Cultural: Water Baptism was customary for many religions and cults at the time to cleanse your stinking body, put on clean clothes and do some kind of ceremony to spiritually cleanse/baptize yourself before going to the temple to make offerings to the deity.

Symbolic: Water Baptism is purely symbolic because it is only cleansing the outside on the body and does nothing to change the inside.

Metaphorical and esoteric: Water Baptism is used by writers in a metaphorical sense, to picture a work that is done on the inside, by God, that is esoteric in nature, only being truly understood by the initiate who has undergone the transformation of receiving a rebirth of the spirit.

Commanded: Water Baptism is commanded.

Misunderstood: Because there are so many aspects of baptism it is easy to misunderstand it’s many facets, People in a wooden literalism mode tend to apply a single understanding to the word which causes them great confusion in understanding many verses.

A work of man Water Baptism: Enough said.

Unnecessary for salvation: Water Baptism cannot be necessary for salvation for many reasons. One is that all babies born dead, the Patriarchs and Gods elect prior to the church would be doomed. I find that unlikely.



Matthew 3:5-12 ...As administered by John. Mt 3:5-12; Joh 3:23; ...
5 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 “I baptize you with b water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

John 3:23 ...Mt 3:5-12; Joh 3:23; Ac 13:24; ...
23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized.

Acts 13:24 ...12; Joh 3:23; Ac 13:24; 19:4. ...
24 Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel.

Acts 19:4 ...23; Ac 13:24; 19:4. 2. Sanctioned ...
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

Matthew 3:13-15 ...s submission to it. Mt 3:13-15; Lu 3:21. ...
The Baptism of Jesus
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

Luke 3:21 ...Mt 3:13-15; Lu 3:21. 3. Adopted ...
The Baptism and Genealogy of Jesus
21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened
John 3:22 ...3. Adopted by Christ. Joh 3:22; 4:1,2. ...
John the Baptist’s Testimony About Jesus
22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.
John 4:1 ...Christ. Joh 3:22; 4:1,2. 4. Appointed ...
Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman
4 The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John,

John 4:2 ...3:22; 4:1,2. 4. Appointed ...
2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

Matthew 28:19 ...of the Christian church. Mt 28:19,20; Mr 16:15,16. ...
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in a the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Matthew 28:20 ...church. Mt 28:19,20; Mr 16:15,16. ...
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Mark 16:15 ...church. Mt 28:19,20; Mr 16:15,16. 5. To ...
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Mark 16:16 ...19,20; Mr 16:15,16. 5. To ...
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 8:36 ...and visible sign in. Ac 8:36; 10:47. ...
36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?” c

Acts 10:47 ...in. Ac 8:36; 10:47. 7. Regeneration, ...
47 “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

John 3:3 ...and spiritual grace of. Joh 3:3,5,6; Ro 6:3,4,11. ...
3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. a”

John 3:5 ...of. Joh 3:3,5,6; Ro 6:3,4,11. ...
5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

John 3:6 ...of. Joh 3:3,5,6; Ro 6:3,4,11. ...
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit.

Romans 6:3 ...of. Joh 3:3,5,6; Ro 6:3,4,11. 8. Remission ...
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 ...3,5,6; Ro 6:3,4,11. 8. Remission ...
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Romans 6:11 ...3,5,6; Ro 6:3,4,11. 8. Remission ...
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Acts 2:38 ...of sins, signified by. Ac 2:38; 22:16. ...
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 ...by. Ac 2:38; 22:16. 9. Unity ...
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

1 Corinthians 12:13 ...the Church effected by. 1Co 12:13; Ga 3:27,28. ...
13 For we were all baptized by a one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Galatians 3:27 ...by. 1Co 12:13; Ga 3:27,28. 10. Confession ...
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Galatians 3:28 ...13; Ga 3:27,28. 10. Confession ...
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Matthew 3:6 ...of sin necessary to. Mt 3:6. 11. Repentance ...
6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Acts 8:37 ...12. Faith necessary to. Ac 8:37; 18:8. ...
36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?” c

Acts 18:8 ...to. Ac 8:37; 18:8. 13. There ...
8 Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized.

Ephesians 4:5 ...There is but one. Eph 4:5. 14. Administered ...
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Acts 8:38 ...Administered to a. Individuals. Ac 8:38; 9:18. ...
38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

Acts 9:18 ...Individuals. Ac 8:38; 9:18. b. Households. ...
18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,

Acts 16:15 ...9:18. b. Households. Ac 16:15; 1Co 1:16. ...
15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.

1 Corinthians 1:16 ...Households. Ac 16:15; 1Co 1:16. c. Only ...
16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)

Acts 8:12 ...6; Mr 16:16; Ac 8:12,37; 10:47,48. ...
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 10:48 ...8:12,37; 10:47,48. d. Scriptures ...
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Proverbs 30:6 ...Scriptures supporting infant baptism. Pr 30:6. 15. Administered ...
6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Matthew 3:16 ...the person in water. Mt 3:16; Ac 8:38,39. ...
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.

Acts 8:39 ...16; Ac 8:38,39. 16. Emblematic ...
39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Matthew 3:11 ...of the Holy Spirit. Mt 3:11; Tit 3:5. ...
11 “I baptize you with b water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Titus 3:5 ...Spirit. Mt 3:11; Tit 3:5. 17. Typified. ...
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

1 Corinthians 10:2 ...3:5. 17. Typified. 1Co 10:2; 1Pe 3:20,21. ...
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

1 Peter 3:20 ...Typified. 1Co 10:2; 1Pe 3:20,21. ...
20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

1 Peter 3:21 ...2; 1Pe 3:20,21. ...
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge e of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

[efesus]

03-07-2003 @ 11:07 PM
Xmansmommy:

Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Oh dear - I see we are falling into the old trap of taking scripture out of context. The following verses read:

You are God's masterpiece created in Christ for good worls, that he has prepared beforehand for you to do. (Eph 2:9-10)

I would suggest that one of the good works would be baptism as an expression of obedience to the command of the Lord Jesus:

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." (Mat 28:18-20)

The Lord of the church command his disciples to make disciples of all nations and baptise the new disciples. This clearly indicates that the new disciples should be baptised.

The issue here is one of obedience to Jesus - not necessarily one of salvation.

Incidentally, howabout the idea that salvation is a process with an initiation in four phases:
1. Repentance from sin
2. Faith toward God
3. Baptism in water
4. Baptism in Spirit

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 11:03 AM
efesus:



Oh dear - I see we are falling into the old trap of taking scripture out of context.

Incidentally, howabout the idea that salvation is a process with an initiation in four phases:
1. Repentance from sin
2. Faith toward God
3. Baptism in water
4. Baptism in Spirit

So now there are 2 baptisms?

[Hitch]

Well Jesus certainly didnt need to get baptized. But he certainly did get baptized. The stated reason is to 'fulfill all righteousness'. Water of course adding nothing to the divinty or righteousness of Christ. Rather a reasonable concern for appearence sake.

The other obvious example is the thief on the cross. And this makes a dirrect answer to the basic question

So, what happens to unbaptized believers?

L23;43


This one has been dealt with, right here on this forum, by the manufacture of a 'dispensation' just for this individual. Such is the power of legalistic cultic errors.


take care

Hitch

[Rubia Warren]

*sigh* I feel a 250 page thread coming on, Freak. LOL (J/K)

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 12:24 PM
La Rubia:

*sigh* I feel a 250 page thread coming on, Freak. LOL (J/K)

And to think, all they need to do is read Post# 30695, and their questions would be answered. :smile:

[Freak]

I'm getting the feeling that some of you believe, believers who have not yet been baptized in water are in somehow in rebellion, correct? How will this effect the believer? Will he/she lose their salvation, not attain some blessings from God, etc?

Since Jesus was baptized in water for symoblic sake should we be water baptized for symbolic sense?

I thought Theolog brought up some excellent points. He said: Unnecessary for salvation: Water Baptism cannot be necessary for salvation for many reasons. One is that all babies born dead, the Patriarchs and Gods elect prior to the church would be doomed. I find that unlikely.

[Gavin]

xmansmommy
I got saved in September of 2001. I have not been water baptised since I got saved. I have however, been baptised By the Spirit at the point of my salvation. (1 Cor 12:13) I have not, nor will I get baptised in water. I feel that to do so is showing my lack of faith in the precious blood of Jesus Christ who paid for ALL of my sins at Calvary. It's Jesus plus nothing.

I agree that people can be saved without being baptized by water, and that baptism by water is merely an outward sign of an inward transformation.

However, to attribute baptism to a lack of faith is unfounded. Should we attribute the same to the practice of communion? Spiritual gifts? Evangelism?

Baptism by water is instituted by our Lord himself and is practiced throughout the New Testament. If its truly Jesus or nothing, we do well to not leave out the sacraments that Jesus instituted.

Matthew 28:19
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:41
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:13
Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

Acts 8:38
And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

Acts 10:48
So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

ETC.

[Pilgrim]

What will happen to them? They will go to Heaven.

End of story.

[Sozo]

I'm telling you guys... READ POST # 30695

You keep beating a dead horse!

Jesus did not sin! What baptism did Jesus undergo?

[Pilgrim]

Water baptism as a sign of obedience?

[ItalianGold]

I doubt there is a person on this thread who can doubt the sincerity of xmansmommy.

Back in the day...when I was Catholic, I never did subscribe to the church's stand on infant baptism.

As an atheist, agnostic and now someone whose beliefs don't fit into any pigeon hole - I've always had a "knowing" that those rituals which are instituted by man have nothing to do with having our eyes opened to the Divine.

"Salvation" - "Grace" - "Enlightenment" are processes, internal and personal.

To those of you who believe that baptism is desired but not necessary for salvation...that it is more of a sign of obedience and therefore to be greatly desired, how can you then also deny Christ's teachings which clearly command you to love one another? This is the full essence of his teaching. You claim that "works" are not necessary, but in the next breath claim that certain things must be done. Religion does not have the answers. Christ did. It's not complicated.

Just my opinion.

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 04:35 PM
Pilgrim:

Water baptism as a sign of obedience?

Obedience? What obedience was Jesus fulfilling?

Did Jesus undergo John's baptism, even though Jesus was indeed baptized in water?


When was Jesus' baptism completed?

"But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!"

We are partakers in Christ's baptism, not John's (a baptism of repentance).

We are the fulfillment of Jesus' baptism, by being placed into the body of Christ with the Holy Spirit, and then sealed for the day of redemption.

[Freak]

03-09-2003 @ 09:12 PM
Sozo:

I'm telling you guys... READ POST # 30695

You keep beating a dead horse!

Jesus did not sin! What baptism did Jesus undergo?

Sozo--have you been baptized in water after trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation? Would you recommend your children be water baptized after trusting Jesus Christ as Lord?

After coming to Jesus Christ I was baptized in water for symbolic reasons--to testify to the world I have been risen with Christ and now possess new life.

Gavin, I think you made some valid points.

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 05:13 PM
Freak:



Sozo--have you been baptized in water after trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation?

Yes, because I didn't know any better.

Would you recommend your children be water baptized after trusting Jesus Christ as Lord? Not a chance!

[Freak]

03-09-2003 @ 11:50 PM
Sozo:



Yes, because I didn't know any better.

Not a chance!

Would you teach genuine believers not to get water baptized?

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 06:57 PM
Freak:



Would you teach genuine believers not to get water baptized?

I would tell them it doesn't matter one way or the other.

We can't teach it both ways. It is either essential, and no one is saved without it, or it was merely to identify followers to Christ in the early church, and and no longer necessary according to Paul.

[Gavin]

Sozo,
It is either essential, and no one is saved without it, or it was merely to identify followers to Christ in the early church, and and no longer necessary according to Paul.
Can you offer any scriptural or logical argumentation for that statement?

Thanks Sozo.

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 07:29 PM
Gavin:

Sozo,

Can you offer any scriptural or logical argumentation for that statement?

Thanks Sozo.


If baptisim was essential or important in the scope of evangelism or salvation, Paul would never have made this statement...

"Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void. For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

[Gavin]

Sozo,
If baptisim was essential or important in the scope of evangelism or salvation, Paul would never have made this statement...

"Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void. For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
OK, so baptism was periphal to the preaching of the cross in Paul's mission.

But does this prove that baptism is no longer needed today? To be of secondary importance is not the same as being of no importance at all.

[Freak]

03-10-2003 @ 02:10 AM
Sozo:




If baptisim was essential or important in the scope of evangelism or salvation, Paul would never have made this statement...

"Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void. For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

I agree water baptism is of a minor importance compare to the essentials of the christian faith. But the apostle Paul did acknowledge that he did in fact baptize some....

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 08:27 PM
Gavin:

Sozo,

OK, so baptism was periphal to the preaching of the cross in Paul's mission.

But does this prove that baptism is no longer needed today? To be of secondary importance is not the same as being of no importance at all.

I understand what you are saying, but I tend to see this as more black & white.

It is either a command or it is not. I don't have a problem with people who want to be baptized, as long as they do not teach others that it is required by God as part of salvation. If you want to make a confession to others of your new life in Christ, go for it. But, I think it is disingenuous to add some kind of mystical or spiritual application to the event. It may be good for the soul, as is communion, but ritualistic Christianity is not what saves us.

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 08:41 PM
Freak:

I agree water baptism is of a minor importance compare to the essentials of the christian faith. But the apostle Paul did acknowledge that he did in fact baptize some....

Regrettably, it appears.

[Gavin]

I understand what you are saying, but I tend to see this as more black & white.

It is either a command or it is not. I don't have a problem with people who want to be baptized, as long as they do not teach others that it is required by God as part of salvation. If you want to make a confession to others of your new life in Christ, go for it. But, I think it is disingenuous to add some kind of mystical or spiritual application to the event. It may be good for the soul, as is communion, but ritualistic Christianity is not what saves us.
I strongly agree with your statement, "it is either a command or it is not."
Baptism is commanded in Scripture. I don't know how to get around this.

Matthew 28
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

The point I differ on is that I don't believe all of God's commands are salvific, i.e., that we are not saved if we do not do them. I don't see any warrant for justifying the notion that if baptism is truly a command, we must be baptized in order to be saved. I see communion in the same light as communion. We should do it but our salvation is not dependant on it.

[Gavin]

By the way, your hannibal avatar really freaks me out.:eek:

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 10:06 PM
Gavin:

By the way, your hannibal avatar really freaks me out.:eek:


That's not good, another "Freak" is one too many! :noid:

[Sozo]

03-09-2003 @ 10:03 PM
Gavin:


I strongly agree with your statement, "it is either a command or it is not."
Baptism is commanded in Scripture. I don't know how to get around this.

Matthew 28
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

The point I differ on is that I don't believe all of God's commands are salvific, i.e., that we are not saved if we do not do them. I don't see any warrant for justifying the notion that if baptism is truly a command, we must be baptized in order to be saved. I see communion in the same light as communion. We should do it but our salvation is not dependant on it.

What are the repercussions of disobeying a command of God?

And, why do we assume that Jesus referred to water baptism in this verse? If it is water baptism, than only 2 possible scenerios can apply... It was a specific dispensation to the disciples for the purpose of establishing the church, or it is an absolute must without which, no one is saved. God's commands are not negotiable.

[Freak]

03-10-2003 @ 04:31 AM
Sozo:



What are the repercussions of disobeying a command of God?

And, why do we assume that Jesus referred to water baptism in this verse? If it is water baptism, than only 2 possible scenerios can apply... It was a specific dispensation to the disciples for the purpose of establishing the church, or it is an absolute must without which, no one is saved. God's commands are not negotiable.

You said: What are the repercussions of disobeying a command of God?

Good question. Could it be that you lost a powerful opportunity to share a external witness to others of the inner transformation that has already occured in Christ?

[Gavin]

Sozo,
What are the repercussions of disobeying a command of God?
Sozo, do you believe in communion for the church today?

If so, would you say that those who do not practice communion have lost their salvation?

Neglect of one aspect of church life does not forfeit your eternal salvation (although there may be real and serious other consequnces).

(Even if Matthew 28 is not referring to water baptism, which I doubt, clearly the references to baptism in Acts are baptism by water.)

[Xmansmommy]

03-10-2003 @ 11:42 AM
Freak:



You said: What are the repercussions of disobeying a command of God?

Good question. Could it be that you lost a powerful opportunity to share a external witness to others of the inner transformation that has already occured in Christ?

Freak, I would have to ask what powerful opportunity am I missing out on by not getting wet in front of a church full of believers? In the church I attend, we recognize and realize the ONE baptism done by the Spirit. Nobody is missing out on any "witness," because the witness they see, is the Life of Christ in me. THAT is indeed greater than any ceremony that could be performed to "prove myself." And personally I don't see water batptism as a command to me. For those who aren't aware, I am an Acts 9 dispensationalist, so I am very careful to recognize to whom those commands were given. Hope that helps some of you to better understand my "disobedience." :xmm:

[Sozo]

03-10-2003 @ 10:53 AM
Gavin:
Sozo, do you believe in communion for the church today?


No, not in the sense that it is taught in either the Catholic or Protestant churches.

(Even if Matthew 28 is not referring to water baptism, which I doubt, clearly the references to baptism in Acts are baptism by water.) Yes they are, but it is not the baptism that Jesus spoke of, nor that revealed by Paul. Even though I am not an OV'r, I seem to be in agreement, I believe, with their view regarding the confusion between that which was presented to the Jews, and that which was given to the Gentiles through Paul. There is no mystery that Paul & James did not see things the same way.

[Sozo]

03-10-2003 @ 10:42 AM
Freak:



You said: What are the repercussions of disobeying a command of God?

Good question. Could it be that you lost a powerful opportunity to share a external witness to others of the inner transformation that has already occured in Christ?

If that is the "witness", than you would have more problems that water baptism :smile:

[Gavin]

Sozo:

For all your bashing on legalism, the view that disobedience to commands of God necessarily forfeits your eternal salvation seems to be harshly legalistic to me. And this is what I take you to be saying (please correct me if I am wrong) - that if baptism is for today, and a convert is not baptized, they will not go to heaven.

No, not in the sense that it is taught in either the Catholic or Protestant churches.
In what sense do you believe it is for today?

[Gavin]

I guess my concern is that I don't understand how you guys can exclude practices from contemporary church life that are so clearly instituted in the New Testament, like water baptism and communion (Linda I know you accept communion).

[Sozo]

03-10-2003 @ 04:19 PM
Gavin:

Sozo:

For all your bashing on legalism, the view that disobedience to commands of God necessarily forfeits your eternal salvation seems to be harshly legalistic to me. And this is what I take you to be saying (please correct me if I am wrong) - that if baptism is for today, and a convert is not baptized, they will not go to heaven.


In what sense do you believe it is for today?

We may be getting somewhere :brow:

I am against all obedience beyond obeying the gospel (which is believing the message concerning Christ). My point on the baptism issue would be the same as any command, if it is required by God as something that we must do, then there is no middle ground, we MUST do it. The Law or commands of God are not "do the best you can" mandates. They require absolute perfection, or they are made void. For example... to be saved and enter into the kingdom of God, you MUST be:

Righteous

Holy

Blameless

Sanctified

Free from all sin

&

Baptized into the body of Christ

There are no options! Therefore God had to do what is necessary for us, because of our total inabilty to keep His laws, or obey His commands.

In what sense do you believe it is for today?

The same as it was then.

When we come together for fellowship with the body of Christ, we are to remember that Christ is our Passover.

[Freak]

03-10-2003 @ 04:58 PM
Xmansmommy:



Freak, I would have to ask what powerful opportunity am I missing out on by not getting wet in front of a church full of believers? In the church I attend, we recognize and realize the ONE baptism done by the Spirit. Nobody is missing out on any "witness," because the witness they see, is the Life of Christ in me. THAT is indeed greater than any ceremony that could be performed to "prove myself." And personally I don't see water batptism as a command to me. For those who aren't aware, I am an Acts 9 dispensationalist, so I am very careful to recognize to whom those commands were given. Hope that helps some of you to better understand my "disobedience." :xmm:

Symbols have redemptive value. I can't begin to tell you the amount of times people have seen the wooden cross I have hung up in my living room and have asked about it (and my beliefs). The cross reminds people of what Jesus did. Is there anything wrong with a cross? Absolutely not! It is a powerful symbol.

Baptism in water is a symbol. The first century believers were water baptized as a symbolic witness of their union with Christ and His life. No, I do not believe it is necessary for salvation. Justification is by faith alone in Christ but water baptism could be a powerful witness to the inner transformation that has already occured in your life.

I'm certain you have no problems with the symbolism used in marriage cermonies, correct? Many exchange rings? No,it's not necessary but symbolism is a powerful witness to the world that watches.

Food for thought!

[Freak]

Sozo--

Water baptism is a symbol. You'd like to do away with that symbol, correct?

What about the exchanging of rings in a marriage ceremony? Would you like to do away with that powerful symbol also? Do you wear a ring? Your wife?

What about crosses? Would you like to do away with the crosses from every church building?

[Sozo]

03-10-2003 @ 07:06 PM
Freak:



Symbols have redemptive value. I can't begin to tell you the amount of times people have seen the wooden cross I have hung up in my living room and have asked about it (and my beliefs). The cross reminds people of what Jesus did. Is there anything wrong with a cross? Absolutely not! It is a powerful symbol.

Baptism in water is a symbol. The first century believers were water baptized as a symbolic witness of their union with Christ and His life. No, I do not believe it is necessary for salvation. Justification is by faith alone in Christ but water baptism could be a powerful witness to the inner transformation that has already occured in your life.

I'm certain you have no problems with the symbolism used in marriage cermonies, correct? Many exchange rings? No,it's not necessary but symbolism is a powerful witness to the world that watches.

Food for thought!

Good points Freak!

And therefore we are free to determine whether to or not to in light of the enviroment it is done in.

[Freak]

03-11-2003 @ 01:13 AM
Sozo:



Good points Freak!

And therefore we are free to determine whether to or not to in light of the enviroment it is done in.

In agreement with that.

[Pilgrim]

I agree with Freak on the value of symbols and liturgy. They can be a powerful witness and a great instructional tool. They become a sort of artistic form of confession even.

[Apollos]

Hey Guys -

Did I miss it? I have been waiting for the passage(s) that show us that water baptism is SYMBOLIC.

I looked back and I have yet to see a scripture given that says so!

Who has the passage?

And if you think Romans 6 is it, please go back and read my posts about that and correct me where needed.

In the meantime, can someone tell us what water baptism is FOR and what it DOES ?? (Supported by scripture please!!!)

:read:

[GrayPilgrim]

As I posted here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=28782#post28782). I view baptism as the initiatory rite into the New Covenant. It was the equivalent of circumcison which gained one admitance in to the Abrahamic/Mosiac Covenant Communities. This being said, I don't think it is necessary for salvation, but it will be attened with a particular grace, similar to all obedience.


ItalianGold,

You are correct to point out that we are to love ine another. In fact Jesus set that up as the litmus test for whether we were from Him and whether He was sent by the father.

GP

[Socrates]

IG:
As an atheist, agnostic and now someone whose beliefs don't fit into any pigeon hole ... how can you then also deny Christ's teachings which clearly command you to love one another? This is the full essence of his teaching.But the first commandment was to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Atheists, agnostics and others who don't acknowledge the true God of the Bible are breaking this greatest commandment.

[Xmansmommy]

03-10-2003 @ 08:06 PM
Freak:



Symbols have redemptive value. I can't begin to tell you the amount of times people have seen the wooden cross I have hung up in my living room and have asked about it (and my beliefs). The cross reminds people of what Jesus did. Is there anything wrong with a cross? Absolutely not! It is a powerful symbol.

Baptism in water is a symbol. The first century believers were water baptized as a symbolic witness of their union with Christ and His life. No, I do not believe it is necessary for salvation. Justification is by faith alone in Christ but water baptism could be a powerful witness to the inner transformation that has already occured in your life.

I'm certain you have no problems with the symbolism used in marriage cermonies, correct? Many exchange rings? No,it's not necessary but symbolism is a powerful witness to the world that watches.

Food for thought!

Freak again, I would ask to whom this event would be a great witness too? The church I attend does not perform water baptisms and the members are all aware of why, and are in agreement with why. So who would be of benefit? Me? I know how God is working IN me based on how my life has changed and also based on His word, which I apply to the details of my life. A water tank can't help me better understand the working of the Holy Spirit that indwells me. The word of God working effectually IN me, can.
Also, having a wedding ring, or a cross on your wall does not compare with a one time event that you have no evidence of, other than an plaque on your wall. If you desire the conversation piece go for it. Personally my walk, my talk, my life itself, is, or at the very least should be, that great testimony of what's already taken/taking place in my life. My family and friends know who I was living my life for before I got saved, and they now see who I am living my life for after I got saved. What better testimony is there than that? Symbolism can't touch what God does IN the believer!

[Freak]

03-11-2003 @ 03:33 PM
Xmansmommy:



Freak again, I would ask to whom this event would be a great witness too? The church I attend does not perform water baptisms and the members are all aware of why, and are in agreement with why. So who would be of benefit? Me? I know how God is working IN me based on how my life has changed and also based on His word, which I apply to the details of my life. A water tank can't help me better understand the working of the Holy Spirit that indwells me. The word of God working effectually IN me, can.
Also, having a wedding ring, or a cross on your wall does not compare with a one time event that you have no evidence of, other than an plaque on your wall. If you desire the conversation piece go for it. Personally my walk, my talk, my life itself, is, or at the very least should be, that great testimony of what's already taken/taking place in my life. My family and friends know who I was living my life for before I got saved, and they now see who I am living my life for after I got saved. What better testimony is there than that? Symbolism can't touch what God does IN the believer!


But, you once again failed to see how symbols do play a part in our lives.

Marriage rings are symbolic of the commitment you made to your spouse and to God. Does the Bible require us to wear a ring? No. But it does give us the opportunity to remind ourselves and to others in the world that watches of our commitments. Same with water baptism--it tells the watching world of the commitment you made to Christ. Who cares if your church has a tank. The world is filled with lakes, seas, oceans, rivers that allow you to be baptized. It gives you an opportunity to be a witness.

You might say, but, its useless! Then you better take off that marriage ring and better not let anyone hang up a cross. Be consistent.

You say its a one time event. Well of course it is. As is the exchanging of rings. But, I bet, you exchanged rings. Those witnessing the event can be impacted by the powerful symbolism. Whose to say God can't use symbolism. I just gave you some examples--many can attest how they were touched by God witnessing a baptism or the symbol of the cross or the exchanging of the rings in a marriage ceremony. You underestimate God!

[Sozo]

People put that fish thing on their cars, are you saying we should all do that?

Should we all pierce our ears with little crosses? How about our nose, or maybe a big tatto on our foreheads of the Shroud of Turin.

What is the proper symbolism? If in fact, water baptism is designed for that purpose, why aren't we doing it in public forums?

[Xmansmommy]

Freak,
I never said God couldn't use a water baptism as a means to affect others. I do not underestimate Him. For I know all things work together for the good to those who love Him, which I do. Let me reiterate that for me personally, I would consider a water baptism a lack of faith on my part.

Ga:6:14: But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

[Gavin]

Linda - by the same line of reasoning, why should communion still be practiced?

[Xmansmommy]

Gavin,
I don't partake of communion as a command. I do so out of remembrance for what Christ has done for me. I don't partake for the benefit of others either. I simply rejoice in what He's accomplished for me, and partake to honor and remember Him. That's something personal between me and Jesus Christ. It's not an outward sign for someone else to see and be affected by. I don't believe I'm in any danger if I choose not to partake. I would again state that I don't believe water baptism as a command for the Body of Christ. Baptism is essential however, just not by water.

1Co:12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

For and By Him,
Linda

[Sozo]

xmansmommy...

Your last 2 posts are (in the words of DDW) the bomb!

[Gavin]

Linda,
thank you for your response:
Gavin,
I don't partake of communion as a command. I do so out of remembrance for what Christ has done for me. I don't partake for the benefit of others either. I simply rejoice in what He's accomplished for me, and partake to honor and remember Him. That's something personal between me and Jesus Christ. It's not an outward sign for someone else to see and be affected by. I don't believe I'm in any danger if I choose not to partake. I would again state that I don't believe water baptism as a command for the Body of Christ. Baptism is essential however, just not by water.

1Co:12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

For and By Him,
Linda
So why not chose to be baptized for the same reasons - to honor and remember Christ and what he has done for you?

I am not saying baptism and communion are legastic things that if you do not do fully, all the time, you are necessarily sinning. If you don't want to be baptized, it is not the end of the world. I just don't see any reason to not follow the sacraments and means of grace that Christ instituted in the NT, generally speaking.

Thanks,
Gavin

[Freak]

03-11-2003 @ 05:21 PM
Sozo:

People put that fish thing on their cars, are you saying we should all do that?

Should we all pierce our ears with little crosses? How about our nose, or maybe a big tatto on our foreheads of the Shroud of Turin.

What is the proper symbolism? If in fact, water baptism is designed for that purpose, why aren't we doing it in public forums?

Like I said--should we do away with the exchanging of rings in a marriage ceremony. Be consistent. The exchanging of the rings (the symbolic commitment to one another) is the focus point of most marriage ceremonies. Should we avoid this symbolic practice? By the way, do you wear a ring? Does your wife?

While we are at it...let's rid all the churches of the cross, right?

Look, I understand, people can go overboard on the use of symbols but I don't think anyone is suggesting a heavy emphasis on the use of symbolism but we ought not to do away with symbolism for symbolism can be used of God to remind people of His majesty (a ring-bringing the two together in Holy union--the cross symbolizing the victory Christ has over death--water baptism--the symbolic act of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ).

[Freak]

03-11-2003 @ 06:48 PM
Xmansmommy:

Gavin,
I don't partake of communion as a command. I do so out of remembrance for what Christ has done for me. I don't partake for the benefit of others either. I simply rejoice in what He's accomplished for me, and partake to honor and remember Him. That's something personal between me and Jesus Christ. It's not an outward sign for someone else to see and be affected by. I don't believe I'm in any danger if I choose not to partake. I would again state that I don't believe water baptism as a command for the Body of Christ. Baptism is essential however, just not by water.

1Co:12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

For and By Him,
Linda

Curious to see if you are truly consistent in your view of Christian symbols. Do you wear a wedding ring (that is if your married)?

Look, nobody is saying you are dammed to eternal hell because your not water baptized. We are simply saying that God can use symbols to speak to a watching world. The marriage ring is a symbol--it has no inherent power--but the mere sight of it brings into remembrance of the commitment you made to your spouse and to Christ.

Can water baptism be used by God in such a way? I believe so. We do it to symbolize our death, burial, resurrection, in Christ. That is not a negative as you propose but a positive before a watching world.

[Sozo]

03-11-2003 @ 02:32 PM
Gavin:
I just don't see any reason to not follow the sacraments and means of grace that Christ instituted in the NT, generally speaking.

Thanks,
Gavin

Means of grace? :huh: I think not :no:

[Xmansmommy]

Originally posted by Gavin...
So why not chose to be baptized for the same reasons - to honor and remember Christ and what he has done for you?
As I stated before, for me personally it would not be honoring nor remembering Jesus Christ and what He's accomplished for me at Calvary. It would be just the opposite. I realize, recognize and praise Him every day. I am very thankful for what He's done for me. I am very grateful for what He is continuing to do in my life. I believe He knows how thankful I am. :xmm:

[Xmansmommy]

03-11-2003 @ 03:43 PM
Freak:



Curious to see if you are truly consistent in your view of Christian symbols. Do you wear a wedding ring (that is if your married)?

Look, nobody is saying you are dammed to eternal hell because your not water baptized. We are simply saying that God can use symbols to speak to a watching world. The marriage ring is a symbol--it has no inherent power--but the mere sight of it brings into remembrance of the commitment you made to your spouse and to Christ.

Can water baptism be used by God in such a way? I believe so. We do it to symbolize our death, burial, resurrection, in Christ. That is not a negative as you propose but a positive before a watching world.

Well Freak to answer your question, I don't wear a wedding ring because I am not married. I believe if and when that time comes I will indeed sport a ring. The wedding ring is a symbol that is ever present to the one wearing it and those in their presence. What symbol does the person who is water baptised carry with them as a reminder of that symbol? According to a watching world perhaps it might be a positive or a negative. Depends on who you ask. For those who realize that water baptism is not for today it might be a hinderance. If I profess that Christ's precious blood is sufficient and I go before a world of likeminded believers and get water baptized, I might not be such a great witness as to what or WHOM I'm putting my faith in. I desire to mean what I say. I trust the blood of Christ alone. NO need for a symbolic baptism, I prefer the real deal!

[Freak]

03-11-2003 @ 11:14 PM
Xmansmommy:



Well Freak to answer your question, I don't wear a wedding ring because I am not married. I believe if and when that time comes I will indeed sport a ring. The wedding ring is a symbol that is ever present to the one wearing it and those in their presence. What symbol does the person who is water baptised carry with them as a reminder of that symbol? According to a watching world perhaps it might be a positive or a negative. Depends on who you ask. For those who realize that water baptism is not for today it might be a hinderance. If I profess that Christ's precious blood is sufficient and I go before a world of likeminded believers and get water baptized, I might not be such a great witness as to what or WHOM I'm putting my faith in. I desire to mean what I say. I trust the blood of Christ alone. NO need for a symbolic baptism, I prefer the real deal!

The exchanging of the rings is a one time event. One doesn't keep on exchanging rings. The symbolism is real and powerful even if its just a one time event. Same with water baptism. One should confess verbally that Jesus is Lord and testify to ones salvation experience in Christ. The one baptizing should baptize the person in the likness of Jesus death, burial, and resurrection--making it a powerful reminder what Christ has done and will do.

You said: According to a watching world perhaps it might be a positive or a negative. Depends on who you ask. For those who realize that water baptism is not for today it might be a hinderance.

Well, I guess the same could be said for exchanging rings in a marriage ceremony. But for the most part Biblical water baptism is a positive. I believe many genuine believers here at TWEB could probably attest to this fact.

You said: I might not be such a great witness as to what or WHOM I'm putting my faith in. I desire to mean what I say.

Huh? Genuine believers do not trust in the water. They have trusted in Jesus. The baptism is simply a way (symbolically) to share what has occured in the heart. Just like married people don't trust in the ring. The ring merely symbolizes the commitment one made.

Finally you say: NO need for a symbolic baptism, I prefer the real deal!

Well, I hope your as consistent to the wearing of a engagement ring or wedding band. They are symbolic. Why can you just trust Jesus--the real deal--no need for symbolic rings, right?

[Xmansmommy]

Freak,
I am having a hard time understanding your purpose for starting this thread. Apparently you don't believe water baptism is necessary for salvation, yet you desire to convince me that it is necessary to be a good witness. Again, I have my life as a testimony and my words as my confession that I have trusted in what Jesus Christ has done for me personally. I feel that is a far greater testimony than a ceremony for the sake of others. Perhaps I'm simply not articulating myself very well. I do tend to have a difficult time sometimes doing so. As for a wedding ring and consistancy in symbolism, I see a huge difference between wearing a wedding ring and a one time event of water baptism. You said, "The baptism is simply a way (symbolically) to share what has occured in the heart. Just like married people don't trust in the ring. The ring merely symbolizes the commitment one made." While I agree that the rings are a symbol of the commitment they have made, it is also a visible commitment that they wear daily. The event of water baptism does nothing for your everyday life seeings as how there is no symbol you can wear around attesting to that fact. As for how water baptism has affected members of TW, I'm certain it has, yet that is no reason for me to do something I believe for me personally shows a lack of faith. What part of that am I unclear on Freak?

[Justified]

Freak,

What evidence can you provide from God's word to show us that water baptism is symbolic of what we believe?

[Freak]

03-12-2003 @ 12:10 AM
Xmansmommy:

Freak,
I am having a hard time understanding your purpose for starting this thread. Apparently you don't believe water baptism is necessary for salvation, yet you desire to convince me that it is necessary to be a good witness. Again, I have my life as a testimony and my words as my confession that I have trusted in what Jesus Christ has done for me personally. I feel that is a far greater testimony than a ceremony for the sake of others. Perhaps I'm simply not articulating myself very well. I do tend to have a difficult time sometimes doing so. As for a wedding ring and consistancy in symbolism, I see a huge difference between wearing a wedding ring and a one time event of water baptism. You said, "The baptism is simply a way (symbolically) to share what has occured in the heart. Just like married people don't trust in the ring. The ring merely symbolizes the commitment one made." While I agree that the rings are a symbol of the commitment they have made, it is also a visible commitment that they wear daily. The event of water baptism does nothing for your everyday life seeings as how there is no symbol you can wear around attesting to that fact. As for how water baptism has affected members of TW, I'm certain it has, yet that is no reason for me to do something I believe for me personally shows a lack of faith. What part of that am I unclear on Freak?


You fail to see that...the exchanging of the rings is a one time event too. One doesn't keep on exchanging rings. The symbolism is real and powerful even if its just a one time event. Same with water baptism.

I didn't say water baptism was necessary. I simply pointed out it was a way to share a witness of a changed life. Yes, it's but a one time event. So? The fact is the exchanging of the rings is a one time event too. But you didn't mind that though. One doesn't keep on exchanging rings. But, I'm sure the symbolism impacts many. That's what counts. Lives are impacted. If it didn't the symbolism wouldn't even exist in our day or be practiced. There is meaning behind it that is why people still practice the one time event of exchanging rings.

You keep on telling me that "my words as my confession that I have trusted in what Jesus Christ has done for me personally. I feel that is a far greater testimony than a ceremony for the sake of others." Well you better not exchange rings when you (if you do) get married. Do you hug people or hold hands with someone you care about? Those actions involve no words per se but those actions are powerful. They are symbolic to others watching. First Corinthains 13 tells us that love involves actions expressed in various ways like harboring no wrongs, being patient, etc...

I just believe you are merely limiting God to what He can use (like water baptism, exchanging rings, etc) to impact people's lives. Who are you to say otherwise?

[Xmansmommy]

Freak,
I am quite aware that exchanging rings is a one time event, that can impact lives. Agreed. If they exchanged rings and never wore those rings again after they exchanged them at the wedding ceremony, would they be much "witness" after that event? If not, the witness that that married couple would have then, is how they present themselves and how they live their lives as a couple. My point being Freak, that the life they now live is a greater witness than that one time event, although it was very wonderful and probably impacted lives for the moment.
Again Freak, I do not underestimate God. Nor do I limit Him. That may be your belief because I find water baptism to be in direct conflict with the gospel of the grace of God. You're entitled. :smile:

[Freak]

03-12-2003 @ 12:01 PM
Xmansmommy:

Freak,
I am quite aware that exchanging rings is a one time event, that can impact lives. Agreed. If they exchanged rings and never wore those rings again after they exchanged them at the wedding ceremony, would they be much "witness" after that event? If not, the witness that that married couple would have then, is how they present themselves and how they live their lives as a couple. My point being Freak, that the life they now live is a greater witness than that one time event, although it was very wonderful and probably impacted lives for the moment.
Again Freak, I do not underestimate God. Nor do I limit Him. That may be your belief because I find water baptism to be in direct conflict with the gospel of the grace of God. You're entitled. :smile:

The issue we are speaking of is the use of symbolism. The fact is God uses symbolism to touch the human heart which you have admitted to: "I am quite aware that exchanging rings is a one time event, that can impact lives. Agreed."

Nobody is suggesting that somehow the symbolism is more important then the decision made within the heart. That is absurd. But we are making it clear God endorses and blesses the use of symbolism. For remember God the Father sent Jesus to a cross (a symbol) to purchase our redemption. As Paul tells "The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to those who are being saved it is the power of God unto salvation."

Perhaps you can start looking at symbolism as not being in direct conflict with God but rather used of God (as you have admitted) to touch hearts. Symbolism is not the enemy. For if it was, the early church would have never participated in water baptism (for that baptism was merely symbolic).

[Pilgrim]

Xmans,

I can see your point of view up to a point. I think it goes way to far to say that it is in "direct contradiction to the Gospel." Especially considering that Christ was baptized in water and his disciples baptized people in water and were instructed to do so.

Pilgrim

[George Blaisdell]

03-08-2003 @ 08:53 PM
Xmansmommy:

Let me ask to whom this outward sign of an inward grace would benefit? I am IN Christ, baptised by the Holy Spirit INTO His Body. I have no need to identify with Him, as I am a member of His Body. Sealed by the Holy Spirit, done by the operation of God. What more can man, or a baptismal font for that matter, do to better seal me? If God places me into Christ upon believing the gospel of my salvation, I'm satisfied, as I believe, is He.

Grace and peace,
Linda


Matthew 28:
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee onto a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, "All power is given unto Me in Heaven and on earth. 19 Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." Amen.

Linda - Do you really wish to place yourself outside the aegis of Christ's words here? And instead place your faith in the spiritual experiences you have had which are only between you and and spiritual powers, which can be good or evil? And do you not know that the presence of grace at any time is no guarantee that the subsequent spiritual event, riding the coat-tails of grace, is not delusion? And that outside a long and arduous path of purification by fire in many trials within the Church, one simply has no way to discern the spirits?

The holiness of your calling is not at all in question, the calling which you regard as your salvation, as indeed it is, but not if you keep yourself outside the commandments of Christ, and one of these is baptism... Another is the obedience we owe to our Church fathers and elders...

When you write: "If God places me into Christ upon believing the gospel of my salvation, I'm satisfied, as I believe, is He.", you must emphasize the IF...

God in no place in the Bible places anyone into Christ after His resurrection outside their willingness to be baptised. Even Saul had to go to Ananias for healing of his blindness, and his baptism into the Church as Paul... Do you claim to be more God-directed that Paul???

I shudder at your unwillingness to be baptized...

Please forgive me if I sound critical of you... I have walked in the "just me and God" delusion, being a "satellite Christian"... But that was before...

Newly baptized into Christ...

geo

[Xmansmommy]

03-12-2003 @ 10:09 AM
Pilgrim:

Xmans,

I can see your point of view up to a point. I think it goes way to far to say that it is in "direct contradiction to the Gospel." Especially considering that Christ was baptized in water and his disciples baptized people in water and were instructed to do so.

Pilgrim
Acts 9 dispensationalism explains my comments about water baptism being in direct conflict with the gospel of the grace of God. I don't believe that Jesus and the disciples were preaching the gospel of the grace of God. They were preaching the gospel of the kingdom. Hope that helps Pilgrim.

:smile:

[Sozo]

03-12-2003 @ 09:51 AM
George Blaisdell:

19 Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.03-12-2003 @ 09:51 AM
George Blaisdell:

Do you claim to be more God-directed than Paul???


George, did Paul do what Jesus commanded Him according to your understanding of water baptism?

Perhaps not!!

1Cor 1:17

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void."


:smile:

[Justified]

Water baptism is not a sign of what we believe and the greater witness of God is the only sign that we must receive.

Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. John 5:33
But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37

Salvation is not in obedience of the flesh but is a operation of God when we believe in the finished work of Christ at the cross. Water baptism is a old testament sign under the law...For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 1 Cor. 1:22 (KJV). But (note the contrast) we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1 Cor. 1:23

Signs were nothing more than a shadow of things to come and are no longer needed after Christ (THE REAL THING) suffered and shed His blood for our sins. Praise God!!!!!!!!

But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: Matt. 12:39 (KJV)
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matt. 12:40 (KJV)
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. Matt. 12:41 (KJV)


The words of Jesus testify to the truth...."and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas". The ONLY SIGN will be the death and resurrection of Jesus but many say no that's not true by including water baptism as a sign.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom. 6:4 (KJV)

Baptism into His death is an operation of God received by faith in believing He died in our place and it has nothing to do with water.

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor. 1:18 (KJV)
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 1 Cor. 1:19 (KJV)

[George Blaisdell]

03-12-2003 @ 05:53 PM
Sozo:



George, did Paul do what Jesus commanded Him according to your understanding of water baptism?

Perhaps not!!

1Cor 1:17

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void."


:smile:


Perhaps you missed the point of mentioning Paul - He was called into the service of Christ by the risen Christ Himself, and this when he was Saul, and a great blindness was imposed upon him, and he was taken, at Christ's direction, to Ananias, who was a member of this upstart Jewish sect that Saul had been persecuting. [This sect is the early Church, and their Bible was the Old Testament, the Greek one... the lxx.].. And Ananias was told by Christ to receive Saul, and he objected, for Saul's persecution of the Church, ie Christ ["Saul, Saul, Why are you persecuting ME?" And not "Why are you persecuting these followers of Me?" Yes?] was well known at that time. Yet he obeyed Christ, and received Saul, and cured his blindness [scales came out of his eyes, remember?] and baptized him into the Church, and his new [baptismal and Christian] name became Paul...

And the point is not "Paul baptized" [Which as you point out was not his calling] but "Paul WAS BAPTIZED." He was baptized into Christ, into His Church, by Ananias - This man, Paul, who was as "God-direct" in his encounter with the risen Christ on the Road to Damascus as any of us post moderns might ever fancy ourselves to be - This holy man, who was to write half the New Testament, suffered himself to be baptized, welcomed himself to be baptized, to be entered into Christ, into His holy body, the Church, and as your epistle reading shows, he was called not to baptize, but to evangellize, [alla euaggelizesqai] and not in the wisdom of word, [ouk en sofia logou,] but in reality and in deed and in power, and in fear and in trembling and in fact... That Christ's cross not be made void.

It was not his words that made him a great evangellist... But his praxis... His God bearing deeds...

And he calls us to be like him...

How could anyone decline being baptized into Christ's holy body?

I cannot imagine such a thing...

geo

[Sozo]

03-12-2003 @ 09:36 PM
George Blaisdell:

How could anyone decline being baptized into Christ's holy body?

I cannot imagine such a thing...

geo

We are baptized into Christ's body... by the Spirit, not by water!

George... Don't you think that if water baptism was an essential to the Christian faith that it would have been foolish and contradictory of Paul to say that he was not sent to baptize?

You are far off from understanding the gospel George, and are seeped in foolish traditions, and vain religious and unbiblical philosophies.

[George Blaisdell]

Justified writes:

> Baptism into His death is an operation of God received by faith in believing He died in our place and it has nothing to do with water.

Then tell me why Saul was sent by the Risen Christ Himself to Ananias for healing and for [water] baptism... And tell me why the entire first thousand years of Christianity practiced water baptism. Are you saying that the Church that Christ established at Pentecost got it all wrong for the first thousand years, and that you have read their text, the Bible, and you have somehow now 1500 years after the fact been miraculously given the divine wisdom to set them aright? Are you saying that Christ failed? That His Church failed? That they've got this water thing all wrong?? That it is not the Church that baptizes, but instead is God? So that you would drive a wedge between God and His Church? And that "faith in believing" is some kind of magical substitute for the praxis of the faith as it was given once for all to the apostles? That all we have to do is believe and we are baptized all by ourselves, just God and Me? So that every man is his own pope, being born God-direct outside the faith received once for all by the apostles, and conveyed by them from generation to generation? That we are all Lone Ranger Christians?

Enough of this rhetorical rant! I do not believe any of that nonsense! Christ's Church has been pruned, but never defeated, and is alive and well and upon this earth and visible and invisible and in heaven and is ONE... As it has always been...

geo

[George Blaisdell]

03-12-2003 @ 07:57 PM
Sozo:



We are baptized into Christ's body... by the Spirit, not by water!

George... Don't you think that if water baptism was an essential to the Christian faith that it would have been foolish and contradictory of Paul to say that he was not sent to baptize?


Hardly - He teaches that each of us has a different work, some to teach, some to preach, some to baptize, some to evangellize, each according to God's will...


You are far off from understanding the gospel George, and are seeped in foolish traditions, and vain religious and unbiblical philosophies.

I am sure you are right, for my traditions are reason and athiesm and western philosophy, and my understanding is far from the truth...

Have mercy on me O God, according to Thy great mercy!

I can only join with the publican, and cry for forgiveness of my sins...

But I make no apology for the Gospel of Christ... Nor for His Holy Body, His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

geo

[Justified]

03-13-2003 @ 04:12 AM
George Blaisdell:

Justified writes:

> Baptism into His death is an operation of God received by faith in believing He died in our place and it has nothing to do with water.

Then tell me why Saul was sent by the Risen Christ Himself to Ananias for healing and for [water] baptism...

Show me the scripture where Christ sent Ananias to water baptize Saul. Anainas was a devout man according to the law (Acts 22:12) and water baptize is a commandment under the law (Mark 1:4). Christ did not instruct Anannias to command Paul to be water baptized.

And tell me why the entire first thousand years of Christianity practiced water baptism. Are you saying that the Church that Christ established at Pentecost got it all wrong for the first thousand years, and that you have read their text, the Bible, and you have somehow now 1500 years after the fact been miraculously given the divine wisdom to set them aright? Are you saying that Christ failed? That His Church failed? That they've got this water thing all wrong??

Did you read my previous post? Paul was lead by the Spirit to say Christ sent him not to baptize. Should I be any different? Should anyone? We are to follow the teachings of Paul as he was lead by the Spirit of Christ and Paul was the first to preach a message that delivered us from the law. Paul's gospel fulfilled the word of God (Col 1:25) and I don't care to regress. We must be lead by the Spirit not church tradition. Why was Paul called if the gospel was complete at Pentecost?

That it is not the Church that baptizes, but instead is God? So that you would drive a wedge between God and His Church? And that "faith in believing" is some kind of magical substitute for the praxis of the faith as it was given once for all to the apostles?

Baptism is an operation of God (Col 2:12) by the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13) and it has nothing whatsoever to do with water. This operation of God places us into the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13). All that receive this doctrine are not under the law and therefore will not be judged by the law of commandments which is a wedge that separates us from Christ. Church tradition is the doctrine of men that follow men. I follow Christ by His Spirit as Paul did.

That all we have to do is believe and we are baptized all by ourselves, just God and Me? So that every man is his own pope, being born God-direct outside the faith received once for all by the apostles, and conveyed by them from generation to generation? That we are all Lone Ranger Christians?

Is God not enough? What more do you need? There is no mediator between God and man but Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5), as I said I am lead by His Spirit not a pope.

Enough of this rhetorical rant!

Then shut your mouth and prove what you say with scripture.

I do not believe any of that nonsense! Christ's Church has been pruned, but never defeated, and is alive and well and upon this earth and visible and invisible and in heaven and is ONE... As it has always been...

I never said Christ's Chruch was defeated! It is alive and lead by the Spirit of Truth not church tradition or a pope.

[George Blaisdell]

Justified writes:

> Is God not enough? What more do you need? There is no mediator between God and man but Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5), as I said I am lead by His Spirit not a pope.

My friend, this only makes of you your own pope...

And just as I do not acknowledge Roman Pontifical Authority, neither do I acknowledge your own personal and private spirit-led Papal Infallibility of Self... This whole notion of "just me and God" outside the Church established by Christ is insanity...

Christ established His Church upon the earth, and it has real people, and real sacraments, and real apostolic succession, and real holiness. It is the pillar and ground of truth, and against it the yawing gates of hell shall not prevail...

Nowhere in scripture will you find your doctrine of "Me and God"...

"I am lead by His Spirit not a pope."

Are you Popophobic?

Is that why you claim God-direct justification?

So that you can be your own authoritarian ruler over yourself?

And not have to submit your will to some old guy in Rome?

You don't want him to have authority over you?

You think you are safer under your own authority, claiming it is God's?

That is what the Pope does, you know...

Filling the world with millions of self-autocratic popes each in charge of themselves and their relationship with God, and outside the Church created in the flesh and on earth by Christ, is not the answer to the doctrine of Papal Infallibility!

Christ is indeed the mediator between God and man, which is why He created His one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, which Church is His holy body, the pillar and ground of the truths...

It is within the Body of Christ that we find our salvation, and that body is in the flesh and upon the earth, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages... Trying to find our salvation outside this body is not Biblical...

I am not Roman Catholic... Tilting at such windmills is not helpful...

When you write: "Then shut your mouth and prove ..." I shudder, for the faith is received, not proven, one person to another... But your advice to shut my mouth is well received! Thank-you - And mum's the word!

And... I apologize for the harsh tone of this post.

geo

[Justified]

03-14-2003 @ 02:43 AM
George Blaisdell:

Justified writes:

> Is God not enough? What more do you need? There is no mediator between God and man but Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5), as I said I am lead by His Spirit not a pope.

My friend, this only makes of you your own pope...

And just as I do not acknowledge Roman Pontifical Authority, neither do I acknowledge your own personal and private spirit-led Papal Infallibility of Self... This whole notion of "just me and God" outside the Church established by Christ is insanity...

Christ established His Church upon the earth, and it has real people, and real sacraments, and real apostolic succession, and real holiness. It is the pillar and ground of truth, and against it the yawing gates of hell shall not prevail...

Nowhere in scripture will you find your doctrine of "Me and God"...

"I am lead by His Spirit not a pope."

Are you Popophobic?

Is that why you claim God-direct justification?

So that you can be your own authoritarian ruler over yourself?

And not have to submit your will to some old guy in Rome?

You don't want him to have authority over you?

You think you are safer under your own authority, claiming it is God's?

That is what the Pope does, you know...

Filling the world with millions of self-autocratic popes each in charge of themselves and their relationship with God, and outside the Church created in the flesh and on earth by Christ, is not the answer to the doctrine of Papal Infallibility!

Christ is indeed the mediator between God and man, which is why He created His one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, which Church is His holy body, the pillar and ground of the truths...

It is within the Body of Christ that we find our salvation, and that body is in the flesh and upon the earth, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages... Trying to find our salvation outside this body is not Biblical...

I am not Roman Catholic... Tilting at such windmills is not helpful...

When you write: "Then shut your mouth and prove ..." I shudder, for the faith is received, not proven, one person to another... But your advice to shut my mouth is well received! Thank-you - And mum's the word!

And... I apologize for the harsh tone of this post.

geo

Just as I thought, no scripture.

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17

[GrayPilgrim]

Thank you George, and while I am not Orthodox, I think I can agree with pretty much all that you are saying. Here some Scriptural proof for you nay sayers:

1 Peter 3:18-22 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. "

This is definitely speaking of water baptism. But you will say--"That's Peter".

So--
Galatians 3:24-29 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

εβαπτισθητε refers to water baptism. The onus is on you, disentors, to prove otehrwise:

As FF Bruce said in his commentary:
This is the only reference to baptism in Galatians, and it is difficult to suppose that that the readers would not have understood it as a statement aboout their initiatory baptism in water...Christian baptsims took over from the baptism of John it connexion (sic) with repentance and remission of sins and its significance as a pointer to the new age. But it was not administered specifically in Jesus' name and was the outward and visible sign of admission tothe new community: 'in one Spirit' says Paul to the COrinthians, 'we were all baptized into one body' (1 Cor. 12:13) p. 185

Let us look at acovenants for a second as well. All covenants have both an initiatroy rite and a rite of renewal.

In the Abrahamic Covenant circumcision served as both.
In the Mosiac Covenant circumcision served as the initiatory rite and Pasover served as the renewal rite.
In the New Covenant Water Baptism is the Initiatory Rite and Comunion is the Rite of Renewal.

ALL covenants have both rites. These are physical acts that one can see. If water baptism is not the rite given for initiation into the covenant then what is it. Mind you that just as you eat real food and drink real wine/grape juice in communion so too the initiatory rite needs to be just as tangible.

GP

[Sozo]

I can't believe how stupid people are on this subject :no:

[GrayPilgrim]

That post was rather unhelpful.

[Sozo]

03-14-2003 @ 12:29 PM
GrayPilgrim:

That post was rather unhelpful.

This is not a difficult subject, and yet there are those who still persist in feeding on milk.

"For everyone who partakes [only] of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment."

[George Blaisdell]

03-14-2003 @ 12:11 PM
Sozo:



This is not a difficult subject, and yet there are those who still persist in feeding on milk.

"For everyone who partakes [only] of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment."

Sozo - The foundation that has been laid needs to be kept - The issues we are discussing are foundational, and cannot be moved foreward from until they have become our foundation. To discard baptism in Christ's Church by triple immersion and chrismation destroys the foundation...

You are right, it is not a difficult subject - we need to turn from our sinful ways [in repentance from them] and turn unto God and be baptized into Christ's Church that He established on earth with real people and partake of Her sacramental life... And live Christian lives...

Scripture here is not telling us to discard "repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment," but to grow forth having been FOUNDED upon them...

These are milk issues, my friend - Baptism by the Church in water and Spirit is foundational, is milk... Scorning them because they are milk and disdaining how stupid people are, as you did two posts ago, is not what many would regard as halmarks of people who are mature in the faith...

And I, for one, am NOT mature in the faith...

geo

[Sozo]

03-14-2003 @ 02:50 PM
George Blaisdell:



These are milk issues, my friend - Baptism by the Church in water and Spirit is foundational, is milk

There are not 2 baptisms.



To discard baptism in Christ's Church by triple immersion and chrismation destroys the foundation... Then Paul, destroyed the foundation.

[George Blaisdell]

> > George Blaisdell wrote:

> > These are milk issues, my friend - Baptism by the Church in water and Spirit is foundational, [is the milk of entry into the Body of Christ.]

> There are not 2 baptisms.

There is one.

When John baptized Christ in the River Jordan, Christ came out of the water, and the Holy Spirit descended as a dove, and remained upon Him.

And similarly in the Church established by Christ, when a new person is baptized into the body of Christ, [the Church], he or she is similarly immersed in water, and then given the seal of the Holy Spirit in chrismation [Christing] - It has been done this way from the very beginnings - It is how Saul was entered into Christ's Church by Ananias, and how the Churches he established baptized new believers...

Are you seriously saying that REAL Christians scorn water baptism in favor of a personal and private "spiritual' baptism in the privacy of their own experience??? If yes, then you have a burden of proof that you cannot lift at all, for there is no history of it whatsoever in the early and sorely persecuted Church.

> > [geo]
> > To discard baptism in Christ's Church by triple immersion and chrismation destroys the foundation...

> Then Paul, destroyed the foundation.

Immersion in water and chrismation is the practice of all the Churches Paul founded - He founded MY Church in Antioch, and we have been baptizing in this manner from the very beginnings...

Sozo - Do you REALLY believe this nonsense of DRY baptism as a private event between you and God and no one else???

Please forgive my incredulity, but there are some things that just do not compute well in my mental corridors - Square circles... Flying alogrithyms... Dry baptisms... and Holy sinfulness...

Am I really understanding you right?

geo

[Justified]

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”

I would say baptism by fire will replace this baptism in water.

By faith Noah entered the ark which is a representation of Christ and those in the ark were saved from the water.

God has set His bow in the heavens as a token of His promise not to destroy the earth again by water. Fire will replace the element of water for all those that will not enter into the body of Christ by faith. Water baptism can not save. Peter refers to a baptism that will not remove filth from the body but says it is a baptism received by faith in the Christ who suffered once for our sins and was resurrected to the right hand of God.

“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring