The 12 Dispensations

[Act9_12Out]

Hitch requested that I start a new thread on dispensations. In another thread, Hitch said,One is the lack of the DFs main means of vicitory on forums. Which is frendly ownwership. The other is lack of willingness to defend the basic pillars of the system. I ve asked this same question all over the net and the cosnsitency of result is astounding. No DF wants any part of it. Of course in DF circles the quetion is taboo, one does not question the dispensations,,, the implications are too dangerous. This leads to the weakness revealed here. There is no ready defence a DF student can call up. So naturally they are not going to look for trouble on a forum that doesnt follow the 'rules'.I find it amusing that Hitch implies that no dispensationalist has ever taken up his challenge. Hitch likes to set very narrow parameters, and then expects dispensationalists to respond using only the sources and definitions that Hitch cites. This is an open discussion. I will present the first three of the 12 dispensations here. After discussion of these first three, I will continue with a few more until Hitch is satisfied that a dispensationalist has indeed accepted his challenge. With that said, let's begin...


The Twelve Dispensations

What is a dispensation? The Greek word for dispensation, oijkonomiva – oikonomia, is defined in two ways. The first definition emphasizes the plan of management: “The management of a household or of household affairs; specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other’s property. The second emphasizes the position entrusted to the administrator: “The office of a manager or overseer, stewardship.” We refer to the term of office of an American president as an administration. We could refer to it as a dispensation. Here is another way to understand the word. Suppose you inherited an estate and hired an overseer, "oijkonovmo" – oikonomos, to manage it. You gave him a written document of instructions, the dispensation, and gave him the authority to spend your money to carry out your directions. Although a dispensation is not a period of time, we can see that the directions in the dispensation are carried out over a period of time. If you wanted to, you could replace the old administrator with a new one. You could also change the rules of the dispensation a little, keeping most of the rules from the last dispensation. The employees the prior administrator had hired could adapt to the minor changes easily. But if you hired an administrator and gave him instructions which totally conflicted with the previous dispensation, there would be confusion and probably strong resistance from the employees. That’s what happened in God’s dispensational program after the last change. God set aside His nation, Israel, and started a new dispensation with the Apostle Paul.

How many dispensations are there? That is a much harder question to answer. I could settle for as few as three if I had to. If we had to call it a new dispensation every time God changed the instructions at all, I suppose we could have, maybe even thirty seven. I think we should recognize a new dispensation and call it a new dispensation every time there is a significant difference. But there’s a problem with this. What is a significant difference? I hope to show you the significant differences which cause me to affirm that there are twelve dispensations.

Most Biblicists agree that man was created in a state of innocence. Adam and Eve did not know good from evil. The serpent told Eve, “For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil” (Gen 3:5).1 Therefore, because they were innocent, I believe it is right to call the first dispensation The Dispensation of Innocence.

The Dispensation of Innocence lasted until there was a significant change. That change happened when Adam and Eve sinned. This is shown in Genesis 3:6-8:So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.They now had a conscience. Because their conscience made them aware of their sin, we call this second method of dealing with man The Dispensation of Conscience. It appears that the conscience works in man in many different dispensations. I believe this dispensation continues in effect for those on the earth until the end of the millennium.

When God saw how evil man had become, He repented that He had made man and destroyed them in the flood according to Genesis 6:5-7.Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord repented2 that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent that I have made them.”After the flood, God changed His method of dealing with man. He instituted capital punishment and gave man every living thing that moves for food in addition to the green plants (Gen 9:1-17). Most dispensational theologians refer to this as The Dispensation of Human Government. This method of dealing with man will last until Jesus Christ rules in the millennium. In the millennium, “He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron” (Rev 19:15).

It is difficult to discern the method of salvation in the second and third of these first three dispensations. God seems to demand sacrifices, but we do not find the instructions for the sacrifices. It appears that they would be saved if they believed God and brought the required sacrifice.

In Christ, --Jeremy Finkenbinder

[Hitch]

(b)I find it amusing that Hitch implies that no dispensationalist has ever taken up his challenge. Hitch likes to set very narrow parameters, and then expects dispensationalists to respond using only the sources and definitions that Hitch cites. This is an open discussion. I will present the first three of the 12 dispensations here. After discussion of these first three, I will continue with a few more until Hitch is satisfied that a dispensationalist has indeed accepted his challenge. With that said, let's begin...(/b)


LMAO

Well I didnt think it would take long for this basic dishonesty to rear its ugly head.

Whet Jery describes as 'very narrow' is the definition used in the SRB and taught by Chafer, Walvoord, Pentecost, McGee and the majority of the faculty at DTS for over 50 years. And there are more DTS type dispensationalists in school on any given Thursday then the sum totall of Jery's variety in the entire world.

Jery's position is that of a sliver of a minority of of an offshoot.

Which presents no trouble in and of its self. But Jery's has been less than forthcoming, often implying that his position is 'mainstream DF' , or quite close,as Fam puts. There is a great distance to the truth on that matter.

Jery's own addmision of the fantastically subjective nature the 'dispenations will no doubt mask delineation troublesome or easy, depending, depending that is on anything but Scriptural reality, substituting instead the whim of neccessity.


off to the flicks..

Take care

H

[PuritanD]

Hitch,

Even though dispensationalist can be bogged down by their own devices, reform theology has its own dispensations. They call it covenants but lets call a spade a spade.

The two covenantes are the covenant of work (pre-fall) and the covenant of grace. Though, there has been a suggestion that within the covenant of grace it could be broken into two types of grace. In essence, reform theology poses at least two dispensations.

Both sides try to derive a system from the text and not necessarily impose their system. As with any systematic theology, just because there are those within the system that may disagree about how to catagorize items does not disprove the system. The pillars of the system are more than just the different dispensations. Dispensatinalists have always argued for a Historical-grammatical hermeneutic, premillenialism, and the uniqueness of Israel (though there is fierce debate between classics and progressive on this and how premill works).

Plus there are arminians and calvinists within the disp. system. John MacArthur being a well known Calvinist dispensationalist.

PuritanD

[joelkaki]

This is a little off topic, but I was just wondering. I enjoy listening to John MacArthur's sermons a lot, but is he a 5-point Calvinist? I know he is dispensational, but is he 4 or 5 point?

Thanks,
Joel

[Act9_12Out]

Hitcheroo...

Just because someone is in the majority just not make them right. Case in point, your reformed position is most definitely in the majority, and you have been proven wrong over and over... So, quit your whining and address the post...

Joel,

If I recall, John MacArthur is a 4-pointer. He does not hold to limited atonement, as most calvinists do not...

--Jeremy

[Ishmael]

03-08-2003 @ 10:24 AM
Act9_12Out:

Hitcheroo...

Quit your whining and address the post...

Joel,

If I recall, John MacArthur is a 4-pointer. He does not hold to limited atonement, as most calvinists do not...

--Jeremy

Who says that most Calvinists don't hold to Limited Atonement? You must mean most Calvinistic Baptists...

[PuritanD]

03-08-2003 @ 11:24 AM
Act9_12Out:

Just because someone is in the majority just not make them right. Case in point, your reformed position is most definitely in the majority, and you have been proven wrong over and over... So, quit your whining and address the post...

Joel,

If I recall, John MacArthur is a 4-pointer. He does not hold to limited atonement, as most calvinists do not...

--Jeremy

I do not see the reformed position being the dominate position in American Christianity. There are two reasons for this. One, unfortunately, most churches in the US are Weslyan/Arminian (leaning on free will) than the reformed tradion. Second, it seems to be in the majority only on seminary campus or other acedemic avenues and makes it look as the more popular view at least acedemically but not on the level of th laity.

Generally, all who cling to reform theolgy are Calvinistic in one way or another. I have never come across an Arminian in the reformed position. On the other hand, dispensationalism has both Calvinists and Arminians.

One should be careful on how to classify J. McA. as a 4 or 5 point. There is a quite debate within Calvinism about the definition of Limited Atonement. It goes as far back as the Synod of Dort which by the way agreed to the effecient for the elect/sufficient for all stance of the definition. In that case, J. McA may be a 5 point Calvinist as well as Calvinist Baptists. But this is off the point of the thread. My apologies for digressing.

[Hitch]

03-08-2003 @ 04:24 PM
Act9_12Out:

Hitcheroo...

Just because someone is in the majority just not make them right. Case in point, your reformed position is most definitely in the majority, and you have been proven wrong over and over... So, quit your whining and address the post...

Joel,

If I recall, John MacArthur is a 4-pointer. He does not hold to limited atonement, as most calvinists do not...

--Jeremy LOL Dont care to have your tactics revealed?

You could have opend this thread and not made any personal references, but you chose to open the gate. So dont be childish and complain when you get some back.


HITCH

[Hitch]

Well Jeremy how is that you make a point of defining 'dispensation' in a way greatly different than Scofield and make a point of declaring your personal disagreement, yet your 'dispensations' (so far enumerated) are exactly the same ,down to the names given them?

Thats quite a trick.


Also statements as; 'Most dispensational theologians refer to this as The Dispensation of Human Government. Carry the implication that, at the least, you are referring to the same dispensation by definition. You are not and this practice is of questionable ethics. Because it is without question and by your own addmision ,your definition is by no means the same as 'most dispensational theologians'.

But since you do recognize these ,first three, just as though they were adopted from the SRB the first question is relevent.

What NT author uses and or alludes to these same ditinguishments in a manner markes them as 'dispensations' by you own definition of the term which is subjective in the extreme.

Since you have stated that you could allow for a number of dispensations varying by a factor of 10. This built in posiblity for endless revisions
is part of the reason for my own reliance on the classical definitions and delineations. How would we know when you have decided to use your 30+ or your 3+ versions on any given day?


Take care

Hitch

[Hitch]

Hitch,

Even though dispensationalist can be bogged down by their own devices, reform theology has its own dispensations. They call it covenants but lets call a spade a spade.

That 'spade' being that continuity is the hallmark of the Covenental//Reformed view while discontinuity,of often greatly varying degrees, marks DF and X9 thought.

Jeremy's notion that when the Coventantal recognizes some difference in God doings he becomes by default 'dispensationslast' is as powerful ,logical and realistic as saying all who eat broccoli are vegetarians.


Hitch

[Hitch]

03-08-2003 @ 03:33 PM
joelkaki:

This is a little off topic, but I was just wondering. I enjoy listening to John MacArthur's sermons a lot, but is he a 5-point Calvinist? I know he is dispensational, but is he 4 or 5 point?

Thanks,
Joel Jeremy's variety are staunchly anticalvinist.

[PuritanD]

03-08-2003 @ 01:17 PM
Hitch:

That 'spade' being that continuity is the hallmark of the Covenental//Reformed view while discontinuity,of often greatly varying degrees, marks DF and X9 thought.

Jeremy's notion that when the Coventantal recognizes some difference in God doings he becomes by default 'dispensationslast' is as powerful ,logical and realistic as saying all who eat broccoli are vegetarians.

Whether or not there is continuity or discontinuity, the differnces of God's doing fits into the term, "dispensation." Progressive Disp, disagree with the classics on the discontinuity format and see a continuity with each dispensation. As pointed out earlier, there are talks within Reformed thought that the covenant of grace can be broken down into two catagories.

Unfortunately, by the very definition of the term, dispensation, God's difference of doing things fits. Therefore, it is not a far reach for Jeremy if using the strict definition of what a dispensation is. Even most Reformed individuals have no problem using dispensation within their terminology though they use it carefully. Also, the use of catagories does not prove or disprove anything.

PuritanD

[Hitch]

Whether or not there is continuity or discontinuity, the differnces of God's doing fits into the term, "dispensation." Progressive Disp, disagree with the classics on the discontinuity format and see a continuity with each dispensation. As pointed out earlier, there are talks within Reformed thought that the covenant of grace can be broken down into two catagories.

Well I'd love to talk about this but its too far off topic as I dont believe X9 considers itself in the 'Progessive' camp and obviosly its no where near the classical versions.

But to lean it back to Jeremy's version. The X9ers teach that salvation at one point required water baptism.and thenat another point this absolute requirement was dropped. Now as this relates to continuity, it must be assumed that on some distantly passed Teusday Yoseph converted and needed to be dunked, while on Wednesday his bother Ibrahim converted and did not need to be dunked.

This goes so far that a resident X9 has stated the possibility of an entire seperate 'dispensation' for the thief on the cross. Which does anything but assume continuity and really shows the Almighty as indesciveve.

Take care

Hitch

[PuritanD]

03-08-2003 @ 02:10 PM
Hitch:

Well I'd love to talk about this but its too far off topic as I dont believe X9 considers itself in the 'Progessive' camp and obviosly its no where near the classical versions.

I agree that what was placed here by x9 is off the map of any dispensationalism, classic or progressive. I was wondering though if you would like to start another thread for the other topic mentioned.

My humble apologies for going off the deep end of the thread. I too would not support Acts9-12's understanding of dispensationalism.

[Hitch]

Sounds like a good idea.

H

[Act9_12Out]

Puritan,

You said,I agree that what was placed here by x9 is off the map of any dispensationalism, classic or progressive.It seems that you disagree with Hitch. Hitch said concerning the material I have presented thus far,Well Jeremy how is that you make a point of defining 'dispensation' in a way greatly different than Scofield and make a point of declaring your personal disagreement, yet your 'dispensations' (so far enumerated) are exactly the same ,down to the names given them?

Thats quite a trick.Hitch admits that the material thus far agrees with mainstream dispensationalism, but you say it's "off the map." I'm confused... More to follow...

--Jeremy

[Act9_12Out]

Part 2

When we consider the fourth dispensation, The Dispensation of Promise, the doubt concerning animal sacrifices is removed, and clearer instructions are given.

In addition to the dispensations, God made a number of unconditional promises. We may call them unconditional covenants. When we look at God’s statement to Abraham in Genesis 15:6, we can see justification is by faith alone under The Dispensation of Promise:“And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.”In addition, the details of a conditional or two party covenant are displayed in,Jeremiah 34:18-20a:

I will give the men who have transgressed My covenant, who have not performed the words of the covenant which they made before Me, when they cut the calf in two and passed between the parts of it – the princes of Judah, the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, the priests, and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf – I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life.They passed through the split animals as they covenanted with God. The split animals signified – “If I don’t keep the covenant, I will be split like these animals.” In contrast to Jeremiah 34, when we look at the details of the unconditional covenant of Genesis 15:7-18, we see that Abram was not allowed to pass through the animals. Only God did. He took the imprecation upon himself.Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.” And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?” So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away. Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates.”Because God went through the covenant animals alone, we can see God’s covenant with Abram was unconditional. Abram was justified by grace through faith when He believed God in Genesis 15:6. Then, God made the unconditional covenant with him confirming the promises of the covenant. We will call this the Abramic Covenant.

We find the greatest change in God’s method of salvation in the Hebrew Scriptures from the fourth, The Dispensation of Promise, to the fifth dispensation, The Dispensation of Circumcision. This dispensation of circumcision was associated with the second covenant God made with Abraham. Because Abram’s name was changed to Abraham when this covenant was made, it could be called the Abrahamic Covenant. However, it is called the Covenant of Circumcision in Acts 7:8. This is the first conditional covenant. The promises of the Covenant of Promise were still certain, but conditions were added for Abraham and his progeny to perform if they wanted to participate in the covenant blessings. Let’s read these conditions in,Genesis 17:1-14.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.
2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.”
3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying:
4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.
6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you.
7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.
10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised;
11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.
12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant.
13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”This is unquestionably a two way covenant. Even retribution (v. 14) is included in this conditional covenant. This, indeed, could be called The Covenant of Works. Under this covenant, circumcision was absolutely necessary. A person’s faith had to be shown by a his faith-works. We have an illustration of this in Genesis 22. After Abraham obeyed God and attempted to offer his son, God said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me” (22:12). When James referred to this event where God was the only spectator, Abraham was justified before God. James wrote in,2:21-24,

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.Abraham was justified by his faith-work of offering up his son. That was God’s method of salvation just as circumcision was necessary. The faith-work did not provide the righteousness. Only Jesus Christ’s faithfulness could do that. That is shown in Romans, Galatians, and Philippians. Let’s look at Romans 3:20-22,25,26 carefully.Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faithfulness in of Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faithfulness, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.First, notice in verses 21 and 22, it is the righteousness of God which is revealed. How is it revealed? It is revealed through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. The phrase, “through faithfulness of Jesus Christ”, is a prepositional phrase which modifies the verb, “revealed.” From this we can see that the righteousness of God is revealed by Christ’s faithfulness, not our belief. The word, “faith” (pivstew", pivsti") means “faith, faithfulness, pledge, fidelity, belief.” It is translated faithfulness in,Romans 3:3, “For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?Next, in verse 25, how did God demonstrate His righteousness? Since it is God’s righteousness that is demonstrated, it must be by Christ’s blood and faithfulness not ours. We can’t be justified by our works of the law. They result in death. But Christ made God’s righteousness available. Man acquires by faith that righteousness which Christ provided by dying. In each dispensation, man must do by faith what God requires. Under circumcision, God required faith-works. Under The Dispensation of Grace, He requires faith apart from works. No Scripture could sum it up better than,Philippians 3:9, “And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through the faithfulness of Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.”Here was a profound dispensational change. God changed from the unconditional covenant of promise to the conditional covenant of circumcision. We will see how consistently Paul steers away from a works oriented salvation. We will also see how consistently Peter, James, and John emphasize faith-law-works in their messages and epistles.

In later posts, you will see that seven of the twelve dispensations are under the influence of the circumcision covenant. We must conclude that the circumcision covenant even includes the new covenant, for Genesis 17:7,13, and 19 all say it is everlasting.And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.

We have covered five dispensations, and we’re still in Genesis.

Seven more to come...

In Christ, --Jeremy Finkenbinder

[Hitch]

Cracks me up how you run to Scofield when its suits your needs.

But so far I dont see any NT support. Five out five is not good. What I do see is a subjective division, and to repeat, these division are arbitrary, completely outside the teachings of the Apostles. So as far as Im concerned you are yet to provide a single unabiguous 'dispensation'. but tripping over the much fabled 'unconditional' agreement with Abe.. thts really funny.

H

[Act9_12Out]

Hitch,

How could I offer NT support when I haven't gotten there yet? Patience my boy... For NT support, feel free to read through the latest posts under the thread, "Where did the body of Christ Begin?" BTW, instead of falling back on your usual tactics of "making fun" of something, feel free to show using Scripture how the covenant of circumcision is unconditional...

--Jeremy

[Hitch]

03-14-2003 @ 03:54 AM
Act9_12Out:

Hitch,

How could I offer NT support when I haven't gotten there yet? Patience my boy... For NT support, feel free to read through the latest posts under the thread, "Where did the body of Christ Start?" Well J if you had even one mention in suppport from the Apostles you would have already made it a banner.

Or perhpas you didnt know that the Aposotles had the ancient Scriptures?

See, and since these divisions you put forth are of such great import its is certain the Apostles, whos job it was to interpret for the entire church the ancient Scriptures, must surely have many many references to those same divisions, names notwhithstanding. So in keeping with the Law two or three of these important NT passages need to be shown in support,. Thats how its done, you go to the NT Authority for the Holy Spirit inspired interpretations of the ancient Scripts. Some one once informed that its called apologetics. Of course NT support is only neccessary for real christian doctrine.

And adding the support of a Reformer or two would aid your case as well. Surely divisions so important have long been recognized and agreed on by chruch fathers for centuries.

Odd you havent cited any yet ,so far as I ve noticed.

take care

H

--Jeremy

[adam.naranjo]

I was a dispensationalist for years, In paticular I was acts 9 for quite a while. Although I was not dogmatic on certain issues proposed by most acts 9 dispensationalists. I have serious issues with the view that there are twelve dispensations, promoted by Bob Hill. (Who, by the way, I used to recieve much teaching from) Even as an acts 9 Dispi, I saw that there was serious issues with the proposed 12 dispensations. (I suppose this isn't the place for debate on the issue BUT....) I do take issue with the arbitrary hermenuetic at work in acts 9 dispensationalism, especially in regards to the proposed 12 dispensations. For example, how do you get a consistant hermenuetic from statements like this,"I think we should recognize a new dispensation and call it a new dispensation every time there is a significant difference. But there’s a problem with this. What is a significant difference?"
Does act 9_12out answer this question, in order to offer a consistant principle in the interpretation? NO. But does that stop him from arbitrarily assigning dispensations? NO. This is dispensationalism in a nutshell. They read into the text rather then taking a simple common reading.
Some people hold to many more...essentially every time God turns his back, its a new dispensation.

I will give them this, acts 9 is more consistant then progressive and classical dispensations, especially in regard to their treatment of act 1-9 as being Kingdom fullfillments.

[PuritanD]

03-13-2003 @ 11:37 PM
adam.naranjo:

I was a dispensationalist for years, In paticular I was acts 9 for quite a while. Although I was not dogmatic on certain issues proposed by most acts 9 dispensationalists. I have serious issues with the view that there are twelve dispensations, promoted by Bob Hill. (Who, by the way, I used to recieve much teaching from) Even as an acts 9 Dispi, I saw that there was serious issues with the proposed 12 dispensations. (I suppose this isn't the place for debate on the issue BUT....) I do take issue with the arbitrary hermenuetic at work in acts 9 dispensationalism, especially in regards to the proposed 12 dispensations. For example, how do you get a consistant hermenuetic from statements like this,"I think we should recognize a new dispensation and call it a new dispensation every time there is a significant difference. But there’s a problem with this. What is a significant difference?"
Does act 9_12out answer this question, in order to offer a consistant principle in the interpretation? NO. But does that stop him from arbitrarily assigning dispensations? NO. This is dispensationalism in a nutshell. They read into the text rather then taking a simple common reading.
Some people hold to many more...essentially every time God turns his back, its a new dispensation.

I will give them this, acts 9 is more consistant then progressive and classical dispensations, especially in regard to their treatment of act 1-9 as being Kingdom fullfillments.

Adam,

You could not have picked a better thread to debate this. I am relatively new to X9 disp. though have been raised dispensationalist and graduated from Moody. Today, I am more of a hodgepodge and happy to be in the murky middle.

I do not understand your last paragraph concerning their consistency. How do they see Acts 1-9 differently from Progressive or even classical?

Though it may be true that there are various inconsistencies in marking dispensations, they (dispensationalists) do take note that there are "different" movements of God in His revelatory program (e.g. the Law, Noahic Covenant, Christ, etc.).

PuritanD

[Act9_12Out]

Adam,

You say,I was a dispensationalist for years, In paticular I was acts 9 for quite a while. Although I was not dogmatic on certain issues proposed by most acts 9 dispensationalists.Please elaborate... What issues do you have a problem with? You continue,I have serious issues with the view that there are twelve dispensations, promoted by Bob Hill. (Who, by the way, I used to recieve much teaching from)That's funny... I played racquetball with Bob Hill this morning, and he has no idea who you are. That's not to say that you haven't been in contact with him, but I would ask what you consider to be "much teaching." You continue,Even as an acts 9 Dispi, I saw that there was serious issues with the proposed 12 dispensations.Again, please be specific... You continue,I do take issue with the arbitrary hermenuetic at work in acts 9 dispensationalism, especially in regards to the proposed 12 dispensations. For example, how do you get a consistant hermenuetic from statements like this,"I think we should recognize a new dispensation and call it a new dispensation every time there is a significant difference. But there’s a problem with this. What is a significant difference?"Again, this is open to interpretation. Please tell us, are there any significant changes? I guess when God flooded the world, that wasn't very significant. When God required Abraham and his descendants to cut off their foreskins for salvation, that wasn't very significant either... You continue,Does act 9_12out answer this question, in order to offer a consistant principle in the interpretation? NO. But does that stop him from arbitrarily assigning dispensations? NO.Have you ever asked? NO. Please ask why I believe there are significant changes, and I will tell you. I have no problem defending my position... You continue,This is dispensationalism in a nutshell. They read into the text rather then taking a simple common reading.Ah, but you're wrong. Dispensationalists take a literal reading of the text. If you've experienced otherwise, please feel free to share. You continue,Some people hold to many more...essentially every time God turns his back, its a new dispensation.That may be true, but that doesn't make them correct. Instead of slinging mud, feel free to address the dispensations as they have been presented thus far and show from Scripture how they are wrong.

In Christ, --Jeremy Finkenbinder

[Hitch]

That may be true, but that doesn't make them correct. Instead of slinging mud, feel free to address the dispensations as they have been presented thus far and show from Scripture how they are wrong.

In Christ, --Jeremy Finkenbinder


Sure thing J as soon as you show from Scripture how thay are right. Especially all those NT distintinctives that match the divisions you ascert.

Take care

Hitch

[Hitch]

One would think the requirement of animal sacrfices would be noted as a 'significant change'. and since this is one of the few laws that continued from antedeluvian times until Christ I find it very odd that the SRB and the X9ers commonly do not mark the 'Dispensation of Animal Sacrifices'. Even though this 'significant' practice predates Abe, Moshe, Dave and was of such great power it took the First Advent to end it.

Since you brought up the forskin bit again,,, you still havent told me why the Ninehvites didnt need the cut&save mark in order for Christ himself to proclaim their good standing.

Take care

Hitch

[PuritanD]

Acts9-12,

Since no one seems to bother explaining, I will go ahead and ask. What are the different NT dispensations? At best, in the classic sense of dispensationalism there are two that I am aware of though now being enlighten to see such as a falacy.

1) Church Age
2) The second coming/Kingdom of Christ.

I am intersted in exactly how many you claim there are and what they may be and the texts to support such distinctions.

By the way, what do you use, hermeneutically, to make such distinctions.

PuritanD

[Act9_12Out]

OK Puritan, here goes... I will post the remainder of the dispensations...

The sixth one is The Dispensation of Law. Under this dispensation, God’s method for having His righteousness imputed now includes faith-law-keeping. The works of the law didn’t provide anything. But when a man continuously kept God’s law, by faith, he appropriated God’s righteousness. Romans 9:31,32 shows us Israel’s problem: “But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.” They were too busy trying to establish their own righteousness. Instead, the law produced death (Rom 7:7-14). What they needed to do was recognize they could do nothing to produce righteousness. They needed to submit only to God’s righteousness as Romans 10:3,4 says: “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

In contrast, we died to the law (Rom 7:6; Gal 2:19). We are not under the law in any way (Rom 6:14; Gal 5:18). We have the indwelling Holy Spirit producing the law of the Spirit of life in us (Rom 8:2-4). We have a growing new life in the Spirit as we meditate on God’s word and seek to love Him with all our being (Eph 5:18-21). It is extremely difficult to keep this focus. Most never even seem try. Many don’t want to, but this is what God wants us to do more than anything else. Loving God was the one thing that did not interest me for most of my Christian life, yet, from Christ’s lips, we hear that it is the most important commandment of all. Join me in striving to love God with our whole life. I’m experiencing some of the blessings of my feeble efforts to allow the Holy Spirit to fill me with His love.

The seventh dispensation is The Dispensation of the Kingdom Promised. How significant is this dispensation from the previous one? There is no difference in the method of salvation. But there is a colossal eschatological difference. It is found in 2 Samuel 7:12-13,16.When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.Messiah will sit on the throne of David. This kingdom promised to David will last forever. This became Israel’s hope. This promise is temporary, but this kingdom will be established on this earth forever.

Next, we will get to the NT evidence...

--Jeremy

[Act9_12Out]

About a thousand years later, John the Baptist was sent. The eighth dispensation began, The Dispensation of the Kingdom Proclaimed. Shortly after John’s birth, his father, Zacharias, prophesied about Christ and John in Luke 1:68-78:Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, for He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of His servant David,
70 as He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, who have been since the world began,
71 that we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us,
72 to perform the mercy promised to our fathers and to remember His holy covenant,
73 the oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve Him without fear,
75 in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest; for you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
77 to give knowledge of salvation to His people by the remission of their sins,
78 through the tender mercy of our God, with which the Dayspring from on high has visited us.John’s commission was to go before the Messiah and prepare the way for the Lord according to Luke 3:2-6,While Annas and Caiaphas were high priests, the word of God came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,
4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying: “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; make His paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled and every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight and the rough ways smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”His ministry was to bring salvation to the nation. Because it was such an important part of his ministry, we must understand baptism and its relationship to Israel. Its history is very important. This water rite was explained for Israel under the law in Num 19:9,10,17-21:Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin.
10 And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening. It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them. . . .
17 And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel.
18 A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, sprinkle it on the tent, on all the vessels, on the persons who were there, or on the one who touched a bone, the slain, the dead, or a grave.
19 The clean person shall sprinkle the unclean on the third day and on the seventh day; and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, wash his clothes, and bathe in water; and at evening he shall be clean.
20 But the man who is unclean and does not purify himself, that person shall be cut off from among the assembly, because he has defiled the sanctuary of the LORD. The water of purification has not been sprinkled on him; he is unclean.
21 It shall be a perpetual statute for them.Further, God told Israel in Ezekiel 36:24-27 that He would baptize them with water, cleanse them from all their filthiness and establish the new covenant with them:For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.When John started his ministry, he baptized great crowds for the Lord from all the tribes (Mat 3:5,6), not just from the priestly tribe of Levi. Because John was baptizing with authority, the whole nation of Israel went out to him. They were expecting the Messiah (Lk 3:15).
When we look at the Hebrew Scriptures, it is interesting to see that the priests were baptized when they were thirty years old (Num 4:2,3,23; 1 Ch 23:3). This was in preparation for their consecration as priests (Ex 28:41-29:9). God had promised to make Israel a kingdom of priests in Exodus 19:5-6:Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.
6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.Isaiah 61:6 also says they will be priests:“But you shall be named the priests of the Lord. They shall call you the servants of our God. You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory you shall boast.”Further, God had promised to sprinkle them with water to make them clean in Ezekiel 36:22-28.Therefore say to the house of Israel, “Thus says the Lord God: ‘I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went.
23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,’ says the Lord God, ‘when I am hallowed in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.”Therefore, I believe, by his baptism, John the Baptist was preparing them to be a kingdom of priests. That’s what Revelation 1:5,6, shows:and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.They were called a royal priesthood by Peter in 1 Peter 2:5,9, in fulfillment of Ex 19:5,6. John preached that his baptism was for the remission of sins (Mat 3:1-6; Lk 3:3,8). Therefore, we see water baptism was mandated for Israel, would result in a whole nation of priests (1 Pe 2:5,9), accompanied true repentance displayed by works (Mat 3:8; Lk 3:8), resulted in the forgiveness of sins for them at that time (Mk 1:4; Lk 3:3), and is associated with the Messianic kingdom promised to Israel (Eze 36:22-28).
John’s ministry of proclaiming the kingdom was certified by Jesus Christ in Luke 16:16 when He said, “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.” John was also certified by Peter as a minister of the circumcision according to Acts 10:36-38,The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ – He is Lord of all –
37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.Paul called Jesus Christ a circumcision minister in Romans 15:8,“Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers.”Because He was a minister of the circumcision, water baptism was part of His program for salvation according to at least two passages,John 3:5, “Jesus answered, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”; and
Mark 16:15,16, “And He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.’”Also, from Christ’s earthly ministry, we see that endurance was expected in the believers if they were to receive salvation. This requirement was in line with the other conditional aspects of the circumcision covenant. John 15:1-8 is the best example:I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.When He said, “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch”, He was speaking to the apostles. Judas had already left in John 13:30. Did He really mean that an apostle could be lost? Yes, they had to abide in Christ in order to be saved. Otherwise “they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”
Not only did they have to remain in Christ, they also had to forgive men in order to be saved according to Matthew 6:14,15:“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”We will see these conditional principles repeatedly as we continue to look at dispensations under the circumcision covenant.

Next is the kingdom offered....

[Act9_12Out]

The next dispensational boundary comes after the crucifixion of our wonderful Lord. The apostles did not understand the significance of His death and resurrection. After His resurrection, Christ was with the apostles for forty days. What was He doing? Acts 1:2,3 tells us,“He…had given commandments to the apostles…being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.”What were the apostles expecting? They had earlier been sent to the twelve tribes of Israel (Mat 10:6). Christ also promised them they would sit in judgment over the nation of Israel in Matthew 19:28. They were vitally interested in the establishment of the long promised Davidic Kingdom. By now, they knew they had a wonderful part in it. It’s no surprise that Acts 1:6 tells us they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”The signs on the day of Pentecost were to show Israel that the kingdom promised to David was about to be established. The apostles had heard that Christ would return after the tribulation (Mat 24:21,29,30). At the end of Christ’s description of the tribulation, He related the parables of the ten virgins and the talents. These were both parables about the kingdom. Then He said Matthew 25:31,“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.”Remember, He had promised the apostles authority over Israel (Mat 19:28). This is why we must conclude that these were signs to show Israel that the kingdom was about to be established right after the “great and terrible day of the Lord” (Mat 24:29,30; 25:31,34). The “great and terrible day of the Lord” of Joel 2:31 would take place right after the tribulation.
The gift of tongues given on the day of Pentecost was a sign to Israel that the kingdom was very near. This gift of tongues was a partial fulfillment of the Joel prophecy since other portions of the prophecy would be fulfilled after the tribulation. When Peter offered the kingdom and many responded to his message and believed, Peter commanded that they be baptized for the remission of sins. Water baptism continued as a requirement for salvation after Pentecost because God continued to offer Israel the kingdom (Acts 3:19-26). We call this ninth dispensation The Dispensation of the Kingdom Offered. If they had repented, God would have sent Christ back (Acts 3:20). Before Pentecost, Christ had commanded belief and water baptism as requirements for salvation shortly after His resurrection. Mark 16:16 says,“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”Both “believes” and “is baptized” represent aorist participles. According to Greek syntax, the action of these participles must precede the action of the main verb, “will be saved.” Therefore, a person had to believe and be baptized before he would be saved. This has been covered at great length with joelkakai in another thread. When viewed in its setting of the circumcision covenant, this is consistent with the purification rituals which were imposed on Israel.
After the Ascension of Christ and the outpouring of the Spirit in Acts 2, God still demanded water baptism for the remission of sins.Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit’”After Paul was seized in the temple by the Jewish mob and taken into custody by the Roman commander, he was allowed to speak to the violent mob on the way into the barracks. He used the opportunity to recount his conversion. He spoke of “a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there.” He related how Ananias had told him about his apostolic commission from God. What method of salvation did Ananias present to Paul? Ananias commanded,Acts 22:16 “Now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord”Ananias told Paul the only message that he knew, the message of Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38, the circumcision gospel with its condition of baptism. One of the most important facts of all should be highlighted. Water baptism would be imposed on Israel until the time of reformation (Heb. 9:10-13) when Christ would establish the kingdom for Israel (Acts 3:21 with Acts 1:6). Therefore, from the beginning of John’s ministry, through the time of Christ’s death and Ascension, to the time that Israel was temporarily set aside in Acts 7, we find that water baptism was essential for salvation.
However, the first dramatic change took place on Pentecost in Acts 2. There, after he submitted to water baptism, a believer would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). So, for the first time, there were two baptisms, water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism. As the nation began rejecting Christ, the persecution of the circumcision church which had started on Pentecost increased. When Stephen was stoned, Christ stood in judgment upon the nation of Israel, and they were temporarily set aside.

Next, we get to the dispensation of Grace... The body of Christ

[Act9_12Out]

The tenth dispensation, The Dispensation of Grace, started with the conversion of Paul in Acts 9. A comparison of Acts 22:13 and 26:18 indicates that Paul was saved when he received his sight, just as the Gentiles to whom he was sent would be saved upon receiving spiritual sight. Paul received his sight before he was baptized at Ananias’ command.
More sensational events followed the salvation of Paul. When God had separated Israel from the nations as His chosen people, He imposed upon them a designation between clean and unclean animals (Lev. 20:23-26). Now, in a vision to Peter, the first dramatic change was made. God abrogated the distinction between clean and unclean animals in order to show that He had demoted Israel from their chosen people status (Acts 10:9-16). However, God did not reveal to Peter the unity and equality of Jew and Gentile in the new man, the body of Christ. In fact, He didn’t show him any of the aspects of the great secret He would reveal to Paul. Most important of all, He did not show Peter the new method of salvation by faith alone apart from works. Peter simply adapted the gospel of the circumcision to his Gentile audience:Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him”This was the same gospel of faith plus works and endurance for salvation which Christ taught (Acts 10:34-42; John 15:1-8). It conformed to the circumcision covenant.
The second change was even more startling. The Holy Spirit showed that water baptism was no longer necessary for salvation after the body of Christ started with Paul’s conversion in Acts 9. This was done dramatically when He fell on all who heard the word while Peter was still preaching, before Peter would command them to be water baptized (Acts 10:44,45). The Holy Spirit’s gift, here, became the sign that would convince the circumcision believers that God had opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles. The dispensational boundary was Paul’s conversion in Acts 9. There, we saw that Paul was sent to the Gentiles, kings and Israel.
Third, the order of the baptisms was reversed. Now, Peter commanded water baptism after Holy Spirit baptism. Now, the Holy Spirit baptism was the one necessary for salvation. Water baptism became secondary for the first time. We’re not even sure that God wanted these new Christians baptized. Peter did a number of things here only because the Lord had previously commanded him to do them. Why did these changes take place? When Paul was converted, God committed to him a new stewardship, The Dispensation of the Mystery, and a new gospel, the uncircumcision gospel. What must they now do to be saved? The answer was,Acts 16:31 “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”During this time, there were some confusing events that happened. Paul circumcised Timothy shortly before he wrote the epistle to the Galatians. Yet, he severely criticized those who were being influenced by the Judaizers who wanted them to be circumcised for salvation. Later, he even became ceremonially purified and paid for the sacrifices for four men who had a Jewish vow as well as himself. Yet, Paul had already written Galatians, Thessalonians, Corinthians, and Romans. He knew he was not under the law. There were other things Paul did, recorded in Acts, which passed away. These things had to do with Israel. But Paul did not address each thing explicitly and say it passed away. Some of these things were: raising the dead, exorcism, healing the sick, being bit by a viper without being harmed. They would cease just as baptism would cease. These signs were related to Israel. God was in the process of showing Israel they had been set aside. God would issue a final declaration showing Israel they had been set aside in Acts 28:28.
Soon, Paul learned that water baptism was not part of his commission (1 Cor. 1:17), and he no longer baptized. But we must remember that baptism was an integral part of the circumcision apostles’ commission (Mat. 28:18-20; Mk. 16:15-18). After Paul’s ministry began, he was inspired to write to the Corinthians,1 Corinthians 12:13 “By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body”So, even in the dispensation of grace there were two baptisms for a while. Then, we see that as physical circumcision gave way to spiritual circumcision, “made without hands,” in spite of Acts 16:1-3, water baptism gave way to spiritual baptism, “through the faithful operation of God” (Col. 2:11,12), in spite of Acts 16:15,31-34, and 1 Cor. 1:14-16.
Why did water baptism give way to spiritual baptism? It was because God set Israel aside in Acts 7 (Rom. 11:11,25; Acts 28:28) when Christ stood in judgment (Isa. 3:13) at the stoning of Stephen. Part of Paul’s ministry had been to show Israel that they had been set aside. That is why the Corinthian church spoke in tongues. Their meeting place wall was contiguous with the Jewish synagogue. They spoke in tongues in judgment upon the unbelieving Jews next door in fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 28 (1 Cor. 14:21,22).
God used Paul to pronounce to the Jews in Rome that Israel had been set aside. This occurred in Acts 28:28. After this, the baptisms imposed on Israel, being fleshly ordinances (Heb. 9:10-13), were set aside until God would resume dealing with Israel in the tribulation. For instance, baptism will be necessary for salvation when Peter’s epistles are again directly applicable in the tribulation period. We must look at 1 Peter 3:20,21 closely. Verse 20 shows us that the ark and the flood of water were a type. Peter then wrote,“There is also an antitype which now saves us, namely baptism.”Yes, his message was, “Baptism ‘now saves us.’” Then he explained away the possible confusion that the water baptism would be for the removal of the outward filth of the body as in Mark 7:3-5.6 This outward ritual of 1 Peter 3 in obedience to God, was essential to perform the inner cleansing of sin in accordance with the principles of the circumcision covenant (Numbers 19).
From the time of Israel’s fall in Acts 7, the book of Acts relates how Israel was shown more and more that they had been set aside by God. Let me reiterate. This is why the Corinthian church spoke in tongues so much. The church “bordered on,” was “contiguous to,”7 the Jewish synagogue. The Gentiles’ speaking in tongues was God’s judgment upon unbelieving Jews next door (Please read 1 Cor. 14:22 in light of Isaiah 28).
Although Paul baptized some in his early ministry, we must remember that Ananias had commanded him to be baptized to wash away his sins. But God gave him further revelations. One was 1 Corinthians 1:17“For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.”Sure, the context shows there was a division because of baptism, but would Paul really let that affect him if baptism was still necessary and he practiced it? Read 2 Thessalonians 3:6 again,“But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.”No, Paul would tell them to withdraw from a person rather than deny a true teaching that was still in effect. Baptism was not part of his message, and we have no Scripture which says he recommended it, encouraged it, taught it, or commanded it. Not one.
Finally, at the end of the book of Acts, Israel was shown for the final time that they had been set aside. This happened when Paul spoke in judgment quoting Isaiah 6:9,10. After this judgment was pronounced, Paul was inspired to write Ephesians. In it he wrote,Ephesians 4:4,5 “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism”One baptism? If there is only one baptism, which one is it? Is it water or Holy Spirit? It is Holy Spirit! Why? Because God has suspended the use of water baptism. It has been done away with because God is through with Israel for the time being. Now there is only one program. It has to do with spiritual things, not carnal. So, for The Dispensation of Grace, there is one baptism. We, who have trusted in Christ, are baptized into the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ’s body. That baptism identifies us with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-8). This identification justifies and frees us from all sin (Rom 6:7,18). Water baptism has been set aside because God has set aside Israel.
Under The Dispensation of Grace, there are many new things. There are no law-works necessary for salvation. In fact that’s exactly what Titus 3:5,6 says.“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior.”We are the only ones who have eternal security. This is emphasized by Ephesians 1:4-14. We live the Christian life by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. These are wonderful, awesome blessings. Let’s revel in them.

Next, the future Tribulation and establishment of the earthly kingdom...

[Act9_12Out]

The eleventh dispensation, The Dispensation of the Tribulation, begins right after the rapture. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Paul wrote about this time:Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.First we must notice that the departure takes place before this day of Christ, or day of the Lord, scenario takes place. That means we will be delivered, rescued, saved from it. We will be gone when the tribulation starts. That’s what 2 Th 2:13 says:“But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you unto salvation [deliverance from the tribulation] through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth.”Similarly, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 states,“For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”We can be sure that we will be gone when the tribulation starts because of the nature of the mystery. Why? According to Ephesians 3 and Colossians 1, nothing about the mystery and the new creation, the body of Christ, was ever revealed before. That means the many prophecies about the tribulation apply only to Israel and the unsaved Gentiles. When the tribulation starts, we will be with Christ in the heavenlies.
We can see from the material in the book of Revelation, chapters 2 and 3, that endurance and works are again necessary for salvation: Rev 2:5,7,10b,11,17Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent.
7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God . . .
10b Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.Rev 3:5,10,12He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. In addition to Revelation, the conditional aspects found in the other circumcision epistles, Hebrews, James, 1,2 Peter, 1,2,3 John, and Jude, will apply at that time. All these epistles from Hebrews through Revelation will apply in the tribulation. I will cite a few...2 Pet 1:10,11 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 Jo 5:16,17 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

2 Jo 8,9 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. Everyone deviating and not abiding in the teaching of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. The Dispensation of the Tribulation ends at the second coming. Christ will establish the millennial kingdom at that time. We will call this twelfth dispensation The Dispensation of the Kingdom Established. He will rule the world with a rod of iron (Rev 12:5; 19:5). We will be in the heavenlies. After the thousand years, satan will be loosed for a time. Revelation 20:7-10 tells us what happens.Now when the thousand years have expired, satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.Then everything is subjugated to Christ, He will in turn deliver it all to the Father according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-28:Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For He has put all things under His feet. But when He says all things are put under Him, it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.Then, we will be with Him forever. I know this is a lot of material, but you asked for it!

[adam.naranjo]

Acts9_12out,

Keep on the look out, as I will be answering the question you asked me in regards to my views on dispensationalism.

I will responde after I am done with a fund raiser for my minisrty today. In the meantime, I'm curious as to how long you have been a dispensationalist, and in particular, you long you have been acts 9 ??

Until then,
Adam.Naranjo

[Act9_12Out]

Adam,

A little over 8 years now... (To answer both your questions)

--Jeremy

[Hitch]

Twelve steps to nowhere.

[Act9_12Out]

As usual, a well thought out, eloquently presented, Scriptural based presentation...

Typical Hitch... This is getting to be old hat with you...

[Hitch]

Yesterday @ 04:19 PM
Act9_12Out:

As usual, a well thought out, eloquently presented, Scriptural based presentation...

Typical Hitch... This is getting to be old hat with you... Scripture? You mean like all those Apostolic references you proved your case for the dispensations with? I answered EVERY one.


H

[Act9_12Out]

Hitch,

So, you want Apostolic references instead of Biblical references? Interesting... Why don't you enlighten us, and address a specific point I've made. You haven't answered any of them.

[Hitch]

Yesterday @ 06:07 AM
Act9_12Out:

Hitch,

So, you want Apostolic references instead of Biblical references? Interesting... Why don't you enlighten us, and address a specific point I've made. You haven't answered any of them. LOL Didnt Bob ever tell you that the Apostles wrote the NT? Ya know Pete , James &Co. Like I said I've already answered all the Apostolic (thats New Testement for any idiots reading) support you posted.

Or is it that X9ers dont recognize Apostles iether?


Despite your snide sniveling I dont believe you are as ignorant as you appear. Disgusting but not ignorant.

And you have yet to address the question of Nt support that I put in my own thread and since you snidely named me personally in this thread you have lost any way to deny that Apostolic support was my primary response and concern. that despite this antibiblical and childish quote from yourself:So, you want Apostolic references instead of Biblical references?

Pathetic.

HITCH

[Act9_12Out]

Hitch,

You are a fool... Every time I read your posts, I am disgusted with your disrepect for Scripture. You say foolish and disrespectful things like,Ya know Pete , James &Co.Have respect for what God has breathed. God calls these men by their names. "Peter, James and John..." If God called them by their names, show a little bit of respect and use God's terminology. Secondly, it pains me everytime you post. Your writings (if you can call them that) give me headaches. Have you ever heard of a spell checker? Have you ever taken any english courses?LOL Didnt Bob ever tell youDidn't anyone ever show you how to spell didn't?Or is it that X9ers dont recognize Apostles iether?I would answer your question, but I have no idea what iether means...Despite your snide sniveling I dont believe you are as ignorant as you appear. Disgusting but not ignorant.What is "snide sniveling?" I believe you are more ignorant than you appear. You have problems with simple english. Yes Hitch, you have caused me to lower myself to your level and resort to ad-hominem attacks (If I use words that are too big for you, let me know). Anyway, on to your requests... You ask,And you have yet to address the question of Nt support that I put in my own thread and since you snidely named me personally in this thread you have lost any way to deny that Apostolic support was my primary response and concern. that despite this antibiblical and childish quote from yourself:I will try to make sense of that mess you have written above. I assume you want NT support for a dispensation? I have offered it before, and you didn't respond then either (A small spelling lesson for Hitcherooo).Colossians 1
1:24
I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
1:25
of which I became a minister according to the DISPENSATION from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,
1:26
the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

Ephesians 3
3:1
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles--
3:2
if indeed you have heard of the DISPENSATION of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
3:3
how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
3:4
by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
3:5
which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
3:6
that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
3:7
of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
3:8
To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
3:9
and to make all see what is the DISPENSATION of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;I guess Hitch does not consider the Apostle Paul to have "Apostolic Authority." Remember Hitch? I asked you if you shared the desire that Paul had in Ephesians 3:9. You never answered... You didn't (another free spelling lesson!) answer because you have no idea what the DISPENSATION of the mystery is. What else do you want to know now Hitch? Feel free to address a specific point from any of the 12 dispensations I have presented. I'm sure you'll just hide behind personal attacks again...

Typical ol' Hitcherooooo

--Jeremy

[Lizard]

Wow, this is turning into quite a heated thread.

But please, lets try to keep the name calling to a minimum.

[Hitch]

(post# )

Hitch,

You are a fool... Every time I read your posts, I am disgusted with your disrepect for Scripture. You say foolish and disrespectful things like,“ Ya know Pete , James &Co. ”

Have respect for what God has breathed. God calls these men by their names. "Peter, James and John..." If God called them by their names, show a little bit of respect and use God's terminology. Secondly, it pains me everytime you post. Your writings (if you can call them that) give me headaches. Have you ever heard of a spell checker? Have you ever taken any english courses?


LOL And this from a clown who says Pete and Jim didnt write to the church?

Now show some respect and use GOD'S New Testement descriptions to support your 'dispensations'. Obviously if you had any it would be posted rather than this whinning and complaining.

[b]What else do you want to know Hitch/[b/] Yawn,,, I want to know where in the Scriptures Pete, James, John etc give descriptiions and delineations of YOUR dispensations, I reckon that would be much more informative than your irrelevent complaints.That would demonstrate that you really dont agree with Scofield , showing an Apostolic basis for your claims. as it is so far yours is a 'new system' just like Scofield's.

But I gotta admit you look really cute hiding behind my spelling errors. Pathetic.


HITCH

[Act9_12Out]

Hitch,

Stop the obfuscations and answer the Pauline Authorithy I have presented. Answer Paul's claims if you can Hitch.

[Hitch]

guess Hitch does not consider the Apostle Paul to have "Apostolic Authority." Remember Hitch? I asked you if you shared the desire that Paul had in Ephesians 3:9. You never answered... You didn't (another free spelling lesson!) answer because you have no idea what the DISPENSATION of the mystery is. What else do you want to know now Hitch? Feel free to address a specific point from any of the 12 dispensations I have presented. I'm sure you'll just hide behind personal attacks again...

Typical ol' Hitcherooooo




--Jeremy



Which part of this has anything to do with the 'Dispensation of Human Government' ? Or the 'Dispensation of Conscience' or any of the first five dispensation you listed.?


To repeat;

See, and since these divisions you put forth are of such great import its is certain the Apostles, whos job it was to interpret for the entire church the ancient Scriptures, must surely have many many references to those same divisions, names notwhithstanding. So in keeping with the Law two or three of these important NT passages need to be shown in support,. Thats how its done, you go to the NT Authority for the Holy Spirit inspired interpretations of the ancient Scripts. Some one once informed that its called apologetics. Of course NT support is only neccessary for real christian doctrine.

And adding the support of a Reformer or two would aid your case as well. Surely divisions so important have long been recognized and agreed on by chruch fathers for centuries.


And to mkae certain there is no confusion,by that I mean your usual clouding of the issue, and since you addressed this thread to me personally I will repeat my original request, as yet unaddressed.


Foundations of DF thought
(post#1 )

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

Please define and delineate from Srcipture the first five 'dispensations'. Show the agreed upon OT dividing points and two or more NT references to the specificly distinguished time in a way that relates to them ( the lack of exact names etc is granted) as dispensations as defined on page 5 of the SRB.

Take care

Hitch

Now even though you make a big deal of not agreeing with Scofiled and even though your first 5 dispensations match his even down to the names , evidence has shown your unwillingness to support your dispensations with NT Scriptures, so use any definition you like .

I wont hold my breath .

HITCH

[Act9_12Out]

Hitch,

If you are unable to answer the question, I fully understand. I will ask it again.

Do you share the Apostle Paul's desire to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery (Eph 3:9)? How can you share Paul's desire if you totally deny dispensationalism?

It's ok to admit that you are unable to answer Hitch. The fact that Paul has been given the dispensation of the mystery is huge Hitch. Stop kicking against the goads and accept the truth. Paul did, and look how great his ministry was...

[Hitch]

I find it amusing that Hitch implies that no dispensationalist has ever taken up his challenge. Hitch likes to set very narrow parameters, and then expects dispensationalists to respond using only the sources and definitions that Hitch cites. This is an open discussion. I will present the first three of the 12 dispensations here. After discussion of these first three, I will continue with a few more until Hitch is satisfied that a dispensationalist has indeed accepted his challenge. With that said, let's begin...

Yes lets begin:

Please define and delineate from Srcipture the first five 'dispensations'. Show the agreed upon OT dividing points and two or more NT references to the specificly distinguished time in a way that relates to them ( the lack of exact names etc is granted) as dispensations as defined on page 5 of the SRB.


You claimed you would address this issue and infact that is your stated reason for opening this thread. You have addressed it as well as you did the Ninevite question, which is to say you failed completely. Followed with the predictable changethefocus tactic common to the Mormons.

So are you planing to define and delineate the dispensations as listed with NT passages or not?


Abandoning your personally stated purpose for starting this thread will be seen for what it is, the addmission of failure on your part, and all the whining and nonsense you will dredge up will not affect he question ,repeated yet another time above. And we will all remember your many complaints of my not using enough Scripture for your tatstes while we remember as well that you have failed to answer my calls for NT Scriptural support for any of the foundational claims of your position.


Hitch

[Wesley's son]

03-08-2003 @ 12:52 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=30145#post30145)
PuritanD:



I do not see the reformed position being the dominate position in American Christianity. There are two reasons for this. One, unfortunately, most churches in the US are Weslyan/Arminian (leaning on free will) than the reformed tradion. Second, it seems to be in the majority only on seminary campus or other acedemic avenues and makes it look as the more popular view at least acedemically but not on the level of th laity.

Generally, all who cling to reform theolgy are Calvinistic in one way or another. I have never come across an Arminian in the reformed position. On the other hand, dispensationalism has both Calvinists and Arminians.

One should be careful on how to classify J. McA. as a 4 or 5 point. There is a quite debate within Calvinism about the definition of Limited Atonement. It goes as far back as the Synod of Dort which by the way agreed to the effecient for the elect/sufficient for all stance of the definition. In that case, J. McA may be a 5 point Calvinist as well as Calvinist Baptists. But this is off the point of the thread. My apologies for digressing.

Not meaning to interrupt but I must respectfully disagree. I believe that the largest (evangelical) denonmination is the Southern Baptist. I think it exceeds the Methodist population.

ps. Free will isn't a bad thing nor does it encroach on God's sovreignty (sp?). We only have it because He chose to give it to us. And I believe He could take it away as fast as He granted it. But I am about 99.99768 % sure He won't.

:wink:

[PuritanD]

Wesley's son or should I call you JJ (John Junior) :smile:

That post I think was not refering to free will per se but making a general point that reformed understanding of endtimes is more of a minority than majority point of view.

Though SB is the largest denomination, it does not by any stretch of the imagination mean that all are Calvinists. You just have to ask my wife and in-laws. They seem to be what I call psuedo-Arminists (Armin + Cal). Now, I know that not all SB's believe this but a majority of the ones I have come across believe that people had the freedom of choice but after making the decision to come to Christ... you cannot take it back. It is a bad mix of Calvinistic and Arminian thought.

PuritanD

PS. Most SB I believe are dispensational in one form or another

[Act9_12Out]

Hitch,

Your logic contiunes to escape me. You said,

Please define and delineate from Srcipture the first five 'dispensations'.

Uh, I did... That was the whole point of this thread. You continue,

So are you planing to define and delineate the dispensations as listed with NT passages or not?

Hitch, are you asking that I provide passages that say, "The book of James says that the dispensation of innocence is located in this portion of Genesis, and Peter says that the dispensation of Human Government is stated here...?" That's foolish. Just as I could ask that you show where the preterist position is shown clearly in the OT and NT... As a matter of fact, I have one up on you. "Dispensation" is a Biblical term, wheras "preterism, clavinism, reformed theology, etc..." are not. So I ask yet again Hitch, do you share Paul's desire to "make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery" (Eph 3:9)?

If you say that you share Paul's Scriptural desire, your walls come tumbling down...

Hitch, join Paul in exalting Christ!

--Jeremy

[Hitch]

03-28-2003 @ 03:41 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=46602#post46602)
Act9_12Out:

Hitch,

Your logic contiunes to escape me. You said,



Uh, I did... That was the whole point of this thread. You continue,



Hitch, are you asking that I provide passages that say, "The book of James says that the dispensation of innocence is located in this portion of Genesis, and Peter says that the dispensation of Human Government is stated here...?" That's foolish. Just as I could ask that you show where the preterist position is shown clearly in the OT and NT... As a matter of fact, I have one up on you. "Dispensation" is a Biblical term, wheras "preterism, clavinism, reformed theology, etc..." are not. So I ask yet again Hitch, do you share Paul's desire to "make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery" (Eph 3:9)?

This is the last time you pathetic whiner:


Please define and delineate from Srcipture the first five 'dispensations'. Show the agreed upon OT dividing points and two or more NT references to the specificly distinguished time in a way that relates to them ( the lack of exact names etc is granted) as dispensations as defined on page 5 of the SRB.

Take care


Your sniveling has long since been dealt with. You are unable to answer. You have failed like all the rest. No surprize.


--Jeremy There ya are folks. Not a single word of Apostolic, (that means NT Scripture Jeremy) in support of any of the listed OT 'dispensations'. Complete failure. Yawn...

[Act9_12Out]

Hitch,

I will pray for you brother. You disregard Christ's commandment to "make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery." Let's look at what Christ tells you Hitch...

Galatians 1
1:11
But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
1:12
For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul claims to have Apostolic Authority here Hitch. The gospel that he preaches came directly from the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. Now, here's what Paul through Christ admonishes us to do Hitch.

1 Corinthians 11
11:1
Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Uh oh Hitch. How does Paul ask that we imitate Christ?

Ephesians 3
3:1
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles--
3:2
if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
3:3
how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
3:4
by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
3:5
which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
3:6
that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
3:7
of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
3:8
To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
3:9
and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

Hitch, I hope you realize that the resurrected and ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave Paul his gospel. We are called to imitate Paul as he imitates Christ. Paul's desire is to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery. Hitch, there is no way you can share this Godly desire, because you vehemently deny that the dispensation of the mystery even exists. Again, I will pray for you.

In Christ, --Jeremy

[Hitch]

I value your prayers as much your dispensations which you failed to support with Apostolic references. Or anything objective at all.



Where I am concerned keep both to yourself.

Hitch

[Act9_12Out]

Hitch, now that's not nice. I'm sure Christ is disappointed with you too. I will ask pointed questions. If you are unable to answer, I understand. If you refuse to answer again, then I guess this discussion is finished.

1. Do you believe that Jesus Christ inspired Paul to write his epsitles?

2. Do you believe you should "imitate Christ" just as Paul does?

3. Do you share Paul's desire to "make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery?"

Simple questions Hitch. It is obvious to everyone here that you are unable to and are refusing to answer these simple questions. You realize that if you do answer then your theological walls will come tumbling down.

It's okay Hitch, I believe in you... Even if you don't believe in yourself...

[Hitch]

Yawn

Yes.

Of course we should work to fulfill the commision ;


.Matt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(KJV)

Now send me a pm if you ever manage to find those NT passages supporting your dispensations. Till then its back on ignore.

[Hitch]

Funny I didnt hear anything crash?

Just the soft phht of a trump card uselessly falling to the floor.

[doogieduff]

04-04-2003 @ 08:24 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=54730#post54730)
Hitch:

Yawn

Yes.

Of course we should work to fulfill the commision ;


.Matt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(KJV)

Now send me a pm if you ever manage to find those NT passages supporting your dispensations. Till then its back on ignore.

Do you have biblical evidence that the Great Commission is for you Hitch?

[Hitch]

Yesterday @ 06:13 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=105637#post105637)
doogieduff:



Do you have biblical evidence that the Great Commission is for you Hitch? Yup.

Do you have biblical evidence that the Great Commision is not for me?

Come on surprize me. do better than Acts 9 did with his dispensations, but you cant. Your altered definitions and screwy ideas only play to fellow travelers.

Time to get off the bus doog..(sorry I hadnt noticed the second o untijust now)

[doogieduff]

Today @ 03:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=106743#post106743)
Hitch:

Yup.

Do you have biblical evidence that the Great Commision is not for me?

Come on surprize me. do better than Acts 9 did with his dispensations, but you cant. Your altered definitions and screwy ideas only play to fellow travelers.

Time to get off the bus doog..(sorry I hadnt noticed the second o untijust now)

Ok, if you do have evidence that the Great Commission is for you, please show me.

[Hitch]

Today @ 12:46 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=106848#post106848)
doogieduff:



Ok, if you do have evidence that the Great Commission is for you, please show me. Why?

Matt 28;19 is more than enough for the entire Christian world, but not you, you and your fellows know better than all the previous generations and the overwhelming majority of Catholics Reformers and other Protestants.

You are a joke , and a bad one at that, and what you're doing is a disgrace.

H

[doogieduff]

05-24-2003 @ 11:04 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=107054#post107054)
Hitch:

Why?

Matt 28;19 is more than enough for the entire Christian world, but not you, you and your fellows know better than all the previous generations and the overwhelming majority of Catholics Reformers and other Protestants.

You are a joke , and a bad one at that, and what you're doing is a disgrace.

H




The majority usually seems to be wrong Hitch. The majority are not Christians, so where does your point stand? Are we all wrong here on theologyweb? The majority proves nothing. Sound, systematic theology does. Let's begin...

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Ahhh, the great commission. I believe it's the "Great Omission" for us Hitch! And I can show this to you biblically. Hopefully you can refute what I say biblically also.

I believe this command was for Jews only. I will start by showing you that Jesus Christ's earthly ministry was strictly for Jews.

Matthew 15:24
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

From the mouth of Jesus Christ Himself. He was sent down to the earth only for the Jews.

Matthew 10:5-8
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Just as Jesus came down only for the Jews, He also commands His disciples to go to none other than the Jews.

Mark 16:16-18
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Here is Mark's account of the great commission. We see the very signs Jesus commanded in Matthew 10 (above). Is this what happens Hitch to those that you convert? I'm guessing not, and why not? It's because the great commission is not for us. Let's move on...

Matthew 28:20
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Here is the second part of Matthew's account on the great commission. Let's not forget about his Hitch. Do you do this Hitch? Do you teach that everyone must do as Jesus commanded? Let's look at what He commanded while on earth.

John 8:24
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Jesus Christ commanded that you must believe that He is the Messiah to be saved. Is this what you believe and teach? If you follow the great commission, you must.

Matthew 24:13
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Jesus Christ also commanded that you must endure to the end to be saved. Do you teach and believe this also? I believe we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

(BTW, who is wrong here, Jesus or Paul?)

Now Matthew's account of the great commission says to go to all nations. Christ's initial commission in Matthew 10 was limited in it's scope. The second commission in Matthew 28 and Mark 16 is also limited in scope. It is easy to understand Matthew 28 and Mark 16 when we see how God commissions believers.

Isaiah 66:19-20
19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles.
20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the Lord, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.

Just as they were commissioned in Isaiah 66 to "go into all the nations" and to "bring all their brethern to Jerusalem," the Great Commission of Matthew 28 is the same. The Apostles were to go into all nations proclaiming the good news of the circumcision. They were to make proselytes of ethnic Jews and ethnic Gentiles.

Who would know better that this commission was limited in scope, you Hitch, or maybe Peter, who spent every day wth Christ and His teachings? Probably Peter, if you're honest. Let's see how Peter acted AFTER the great commission.

Acts 10:28
28 Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Peter has declared that it is UNLAWFUL to go to one of another nation! What have you to say to this Hitch?! What you believe about the great commission is

a disgrace to Christ and the Scriptures. It is unchristian and unbiblical and has no place in christian thought. It is a cult of nonsense.

to quote your own words Hitch. This is sytematic theology Hitch. Scripture interprets scripture. Use systematic theology to prove me wrong. That is, if your smart enough...