Preterism - answering questions

[studyhound]

Ok so some questions on preterism were asked on Paltalk on Friday and I was asked to open a thread cause of some questions on timing and Revelations symbols. So here it is!! Better late than never.

I would like to keep this as much a Q&A as possible and not too much debate. But the way Tweb is I expect a little :teeth: So let get to it!!





:studyhound:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

:argh: What a great thread. What bad timeing. For me anyway.
I will be very busy at work this week, not even in the office for 2 maybe three days. I expect to come back and find I missed out on a fantastic disussion (and moderate debate)

:bawl:

[Xavier]

I'll get back to you on this one... :teeth:

[Xavier]

So how do we want to do this... Just run through the basic outline and point out historic fulfillments or comments???

Yours,
Xavier

[studyhound]

Xavier:

So how do we want to do this... Just run through the basic outline and point out historic fulfillments or comments???

Yours,
Xavier

Your call, I am the facilitator, and (not so) ALL KNOWING PRETERISTS SCHOLAR :teeth:







:studyhound:

[Xavier]

Then Facilitate... How's we gonna do this?

[studyhound]

Xavier:

Then Facilitate... How's we gonna do this?

GRRRR, caught be by own words!!!

Well I know that you and Dave (DMG) had some very specific questions on timeline/outline and Revelation symbolism WRT preterism. So lets Start with the outline (I am assuming of preterism in general). This ok?

If any one else wants to ask questions here we have many great preterists here who can answer questions besides myself.





:studyhound:

[Xavier]

Works for me... Would you like me to find a detailed Outline or do you have one in mind?

[studyhound]

Xavier:

Works for me... Would you like me to find a detailed Outline or do you have one in mind?

Na I'll work on one.



:studyhound:

[Xavier]

Okay... I look forward to this... :joy:

[Dave G]

Yeh, me too Studyhound.
:teeth:

[studyhound]

I will probably work at steps at a time to ensure we don’t go off on to many rabbit trails. So please stop me if I am not making any sense, cause I may ramble on.

Also I will try and define words this may be redundant to some people but I like to define words so I won’t be miss understood.

And this is the most important point of all I generalize, unless otherwise noted. In the Eschatology thread Stephen (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10992)
started I was giving definitions of groups and I have a disclaimer which read:

I will be giving a general overview of the 2 views, I know some people will say, “well I am a __________ and I don’t believe that!!”. But Like I said this is a general overview. Hitting every facet of both views would take more than the text limit and then some.

Same rules apply

So lets start with this:


Preterists

The preterist view commonly holds that the events in Matt. 24 and in the Revelation to chapter 20 and the related passages are fulfilled in the past, more specifically in 70 a.d. with the destruction of Jerusalem.

So simply the tribulation was fulfilled in the past.

Preterist is a Latin (I believe) words, Preter or past.

In this view many of the passages in revelation is seen either as fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem, the Roman Empire, or the Christian persecutions by the Jews and the Romans.

Most preterists are Post-millennial or A-millennial, with some small amount being Pre-millennial.



:studyhound:

[ryanedwards]

I had a few thoughts and questions about "orthodox" preterism. But I'm not sure where you guys stand (I'm a freshman) but concerning the tribulation and coming of the Lord. "This generation" was a reoccurring theme of Jesus'. "All these things (judgement) shall come upon this generation". "wicked unbelieving generation". "That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation"; (Matt. 23:36; Luke 11:50; Matt. 24:34) When that generation passed away ("burned with fire") then was the fulness of the plan (and gentiles) brought into not the Old Jerusalem, but the New Jerusalem. Is not the Bride the New Jerusalem? (Rev. 21:9) Given in context of Gal. 4:21-26, It seems evident where we are. Read it also with Hebrews 12:18-29 about -Receiving the New Covenant, One that cannot be Shaken- What is it? The "Heavenly Jerusalem" imparted to us. The old elements/order, was shaken/passed away at the close of the Jewish Polity (1Cor.7:31; Luke 21:26)
Coincidences?

Read Eph.2:11-22 in comparison to Rev.21:9-14. Also while reading through Rev.21&22 check out:
John 14:23, Jer. 31 (w/21:3)
Eph.2:1-5; Isa. 33:24; Isa. 53:4-5 (w/21:4a)
Isa. 51:11: Sorrow and Sighing flee away with redemption, hence all the exortations to "Rejoice!" in the NT. (Romans 14:17; 1John1:4)
Isa.52:9

1Cor.7:26-31;2Cor.5:17 (w/21:4c)
John 8:12; John 3:19; Isa/60:3 (w/21:22-26)
Rev. 22:15 (w/21:27)

John 7:38 (w/22:1)
Matt. 7:17;Rom.7:4; Gal. 5:22 (w/22:2)
Rev. 22:6,7,10,12,20 (I am coming soon) If Christ was really coming quickly/soon (as all recipients of the letters understood) How else could he have stated it to make it any more clear? No man knew the day or the hour (Consistent with Christ's pregnancy analogy, ie. birth pangs) but they were led to believe it was "quickly", "at hand", "at the door", and even "this generation" (Matt. 24:34) when he comes.

Well it just so happens that everything Jesus said in Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 came to pass physically within the confines of the generation that he was speaking to. But it didn't stop at the physical fulfillments (Luke 21:22) the spiritual prophecies must have been fulfilled as well. I believe most well-thought out, unbiased readers of the Bible understand the tribulation to have taken place in 70AD, including most early church fathers. But there has been division as to whether it was all fulfilled or just some of it. Of course Jesus said "This generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled", and it doesn't matter how we twist that around because he said "Immediately after the tribulation" (the one he was just speaking about), and in Mark he said "But in those days, after THAT tribulation, the sun will be darkened..." I have no doubt that the tribulation Jesus was speaking about happened in 70 AD, but the question is, will the same thing happen again? And can we arbitrarily put some kind of division between the tribulation and the coming of the Lord that just isn't there?

Signed, Ex-Futurist, still a disciple of Christ, Eddy

[Xavier]

Greetings RyanEdwards....

:hiya:

Welcome to TWeb.

-------------------------------------------------------

That said, I'm not sure this is the best place for your post. You might want to start a new thread with that post in it so others will discuss this.

The intention of this thread is to put forth a basic timeline for pretetism pointing out historic fulfillments along the way.

If you have comments and questions, by all means, post away, but I think your post might be best addressed else.

Thanks for coming to TWeb.

Yours,
Xavier

:xav:

[Dave G]

Yeh, I was a bit taken aback by the arrangement of references in that post. I'm a slower student.
:cc:

[Xavier]

studyhound:

Most preterists are Post-millennial or A-millennial, with some small amount being Pre-millennial.


I don't know how familar Dave is with this stuff, so I'm going to define these terms real fast.

Post-Millennial = Christ's Second Coming will occur after the Millennium described in Rev.

Pre-Millennial = Christ's Second Coming will occur before the Millennium.

A-Millennial = Christ's Second Coming is yet to happen, but the Milennium is not a future event, but rather a general event that relates to the Age of the Church (as in right now).

This is detailed in SH's post to Stephen, but I thought I'd just rash it out here.

Yours,
Xavier

PS: I'll be PMing Stephen to see if he like to join us.

[studyhound]

Xavier:

I don't know how familar Dave is with this stuff, so I'm going to define these terms real fast.

Post-Millennial = Christ's Second Coming will occur after the Millennium described in Rev.

Pre-Millennial = Christ's Second Coming will occur before the Millennium.

A-Millennial = Christ's Second Coming is yet to happen, but the Milennium is not a future event, but rather a general event that relates to the Age of the Church (as in right now).

This is detailed in SH's post to Stephen, but I thought I'd just rash it out here.

Yours,
Xavier

PS: I'll be PMing Stephen to see if he like to join us.



Thanks Xavier, were was my head!!! :doh:

And good Idea bout Stephen!

[Dave G]

Thanks, Xavier. I'm aware of the millenial positions, I'm just not clear on how they work in futurist frameworks, because to be honest, I have never understood a futurist position yet. I've always gotten bogged down in the relationship between Daniel and Revelation.

But since we aren't addressing futurist positions...carry on. :teeth:

[Xavier]

Good Point, under the Preterist paradigm, the Millennium flavors don't really matter that much... :smile:

So, SH, let's get this party started... :teeth:

Yours,
Xavier

:xav:

[Stephen]

Let's do it :w00t:

[studyhound]

Since we are going to deal with the symbolism of Revelations. I will forgo the dating issue of Revelations and the Letters seeing as they have their own unique views and understanding, we can deal with them if you guys want but it seems like a side issue.

I am not going to do a vision/event interpretation but only deal with those that are very unclear (example chapter 4 and 5 were we have a heavenly panorama set forth) because these sections for the most part do not have a unique preterist’s understanding, unless someone has a pressing issue we will jump to chapter 6 and start there.

Any objections or questions??


:studyhound:

[Xavier]

Fine by me... :smile:

[Stephen]

Me too :smile:

[Dave G]

Ok, I'm ready.

[Solly]

Please be aware that the mods are on the alert for any promotion of Full Preterism. Ryan your post seems to incline that way.

[Xavier]

Thanks Solly... :smile:

[studyhound]

Ok so I have been trying to figure out how to outline the passages, it may take me some time the further we go. So lets start out with the seven seals.

Seven seals
Four horsemen/four seals
White hose 6.2 – first seal – conquest
Red horse 6.4 – second seal – War
Black horse 6.5 – third seal – famine
Pale horse 6.8 – fourth seal - Death
Martyrs – 6.9 fifth seal – Justice
Earthquake 6.12 – sixth seal - Cosmological events - 6.13-17
Interlude – chapter 7
Angels – 7.1-3
144,000 – 7.4-9 -
Doxology – 7.10-12
Martyrs in white – 7.13-17
Silences – 8.1 seventh seal


Ok, good so far?


(and please bare with me I am sick and working overtime so I may be slow this next week. Also if this format is not working I am flexible to move to a Q & A format to deal with the most pressing issues)

[Xavier]

Looks good thus far... Don't forget the witnesses though. That's the question that kinda prompted me to begin looking for this... :smile:

[Stephen]

other than what X pointed out, looks complete enough for me

[Dave G]

I'm good.

[Cliodna Emerges]

"Seven seals
Four horsemen/four seals
White hose 6.2 – first seal – conquest
Red horse 6.4 – second seal – War
Black horse 6.5 – third seal – famine
Pale horse 6.8 – fourth seal - Death
Martyrs – 6.9 fifth seal – Justice
Earthquake 6.12 – sixth seal - Cosmological events - 6.13-17
Interlude – chapter 7
Angels – 7.1-3
144,000 – 7.4-9 -
Doxology – 7.10-12
Martyrs in white – 7.13-17
Silences – 8.1 seventh seal"

Until I came to this site, I had never heard of preterism. Could you break some of these down for me? Please forgive me if I am jumping ahead. Who are the 144, 000? Under preterism, how many of these have taken place? Thank you-

[Xavier]

sapphireskye:

Until I came to this site, I had never heard of preterism. Could you break some of these down for me? Please forgive me if I am jumping ahead. Who are the 144, 000? Under preterism, how many of these have taken place? Thank you-

Hiya Skye....

Actually, that's exactly what we're going to be doing shortly... :smile:

If you'd like to follow along and ask questions, feel free.

Yours,
Xavier

[Dave G]

Hi skye,

That's what studyhound is going to do for us, the numbers in the above list are the chapter and verse references in Revelation. We're just about to get started, and you're welcome to join in.

[Cliodna Emerges]

Thanks, Xavier! It sounds interesting, and a lot less intimidating than some futurist theories I have heard.

[Cliodna Emerges]

:blush: I wasn't sure if this was going to be presented as though everyone had working knowledge of it..my apologies

[Xavier]

sapphireskye:

:blush: I wasn't sure if this was going to be presented as though everyone had working knowledge of it..my apologies

No problem... That long post on the first page is a bit misleading... :smile:

[Cliodna Emerges]

Do I detect sarcasm? :hrm:

[Dave G]

Not sarcastic, that was a very enthusiastic new poster who was asked not to post in this thread.

[Cliodna Emerges]

Oh- I see! Thanks for clearing that up. I thought Xavier was poking fun at me.. So, what is full preterism?

[Dave G]

Full preterism is a heresy also known as Neo-hymenaeanism. Full Preterists believe that all of the prophecies were fulfilled, er, I guess in 70 ad. So they believe that the resurrection of the saints has already happened.

[Cliodna Emerges]

be afraid Ok. Well, I shan't worry about that then. Thanks!

[Xavier]

They also deny the Physical Resurrection of Christ... THAT's where the "Damnable" heresy comes from. This heresy has been around since Paul did his writtings and are EXTREMELY dangerous.

Yours,
Xavier

[Dave G]

The full preterists seem to be missionaries- they are very aggressive with their heresy. Johnnie Mac said something about it "moving and shaking in the world."

[Xavier]

:nsm:

[Cliodna Emerges]

Well, I feel as though I have just crawled out from under a rock! I had not heard of any of this.:duh:

[Dave G]

That's ok. It's pretty much news to me too.

:smile:

[Cliodna Emerges]

:smile:

[Xavier]

I had heard of Preterism before, but I never consider it to be very well accepted. I definately see evidence for Preterism.

As for Full Preterism, I'd never heard of it, because it's ABSURD...

Yours,
Xavier

:xav:

[Dave G]

Preterism gives me hope I can finally understand an eschatology.

:chili:

[Cliodna Emerges]

:haha: xavier

[Xavier]

:frown:

[Cliodna Emerges]

Well, that is what I thought, too! What brought me to this site was a link from a site that preached post-tribulation rapture..and that really scared me.

[Dave G]

:squeeze:

[Dave G]

Yeh, since in preterism the tribulation has already taken place, I can see it being in my top three eschatologies.

[dizzle]

Xavier:

They also deny the Physical Resurrection of Christ... THAT's where the "Damnable" heresy comes from. This heresy has been around since Paul did his writtings and are EXTREMELY dangerous.

Yours,
Xavier

One correction, not all deny the physical rez of Christ, most don't, though they should to be consistent. And that is not where the heresy comes in, though that is certainly grossly heretical. The damnable heresy is denying our physical rez. If Suede takes my debate challenge this shall be proved in spades that the orthodox Biblically have no other choice than to take that position, no matter how harsh it seems or how nice the heretic is. I know very nice heretics.

Dave G:

The full preterists seem to be missionaries- they are very aggressive with their heresy. Johnnie Mac said something about it "moving and shaking in the world."

This is a typical attitude. They called it a "New Reformation" - which is chutzpah on the one doctrine that the Church has been more united over than any other.

I have though learned though a different heresy is widespread with them... the idea that Christ shed His rez body at the ascension.

Just wanted to make those clarifying points.

[Cliodna Emerges]

what are your other 2?

[Xavier]

Most people aren't Post-Trib.... I don't find it to be a "Happy" answer... :teeth:

[Cliodna Emerges]

I was always rapture-trib-millenial (sp?) But I wasn't even sure about that..I have a lot of research to do.

[Dave G]

I was just joking. I don't understand any futurist eschatologies. Preterism is the only one I'm working with right now, so it would be my number one.

[Xavier]

Thanks for the clarification DDW... That really helps me out with my understanding of the "Neo-Hym." position.

[Dave G]

Yeh, me too. (X, did you see what I posted after she challenged suede to a formal debate?)

[Xavier]

I have now... But I've not read that... :smile:

[dizzle]

DaveG, I didn't understand it... I am culturally ignorant. I looked on the Net but still couldn't figure it out for sure. Since I knew you and stuff I figured it had to be cool, unless you were razzing me in some way....

[Dave G]

Darn. When Batman was beating on the mutant leader, the mutant gang were all talking street slang: Batman nasty. No, Balls nasty. He don't shiv.

Dee Dee nasty. She don't shiv.
:batman:

[Xavier]

Oh... I understand now... :no:

[Dave G]

It means you're a nasty fighter. And you don't shiv(er in fear). from your opponent.

That's my interpretation, at least. I'm glad it didn't get any wrath called down on me.

[Cliodna Emerges]

:smile: G'night all! hope to read more about this tomorrow!

[Dave G]

Nite skye.
:sm:

[studyhound]

sapphireskye:


Until I came to this site, I had never heard of preterism. Could you break some of these down for me? Please forgive me if I am jumping ahead. Who are the 144, 000? Under preterism, how many of these have taken place? Thank you-

Preterists

The preterist view commonly holds that the events in Matt. 24 and in the Revelation to chapter 20 and the related passages are fulfilled in the past, more specifically in 70 a.d. with the destruction of Jerusalem. So simply the tribulation was fulfilled in the past.

Preterist is a Latin (I believe) words, Preter or past.

In this view many of the passages in revelation is seen either as fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem, the Roman Empire, or the Christian persecutions by the Jews and the Romans.

Most preterists are Post-millennial or A-millennial, with some small amount being Pre-millennial.



:studyhound:

[Dave G]

Ok, I'm with you.

[studyhound]

Wow I go off to dinner with some friends and you guys just blow the thread up. :doh: :teeth:




Ok so I am now confused are we doing a Revelation/preterist review/outline or a Preterism 101?

'll try and start out with the outline I posted the other day mind you its only 2 chapters, and we will get to the 2 witnesses when we reach chapter 11.

OK?


Oh and welcome sapphireskye hope you enjoy uor little romp into preterism, and I hope we can answer your questions. :wink:




:studyhound:

[Dave G]

Ok, that sounds good. :teeth:

[studyhound]

err I meant to say this week-end Ill try to post me commentary.

Sorry if that lead to any confustion. :noid:



:studyhound:

[Dave G]

that's cool, medicine has made me a little spacey, anyway.

:bt:

[studyhound]

Seven seals
Four horsemen/four seals
*White hose 6.2 – first seal
*Red horse 6.4 – second seal
*Black horse 6.5 – third seal
*Pale horse 6.8 – fourth seal
*Martyrs – 6.9 fifth seal
*Earthquake 6.12 – sixth seal
Cosmological events - 6.13-17

*Interlude – chapter 7
Angels – 7.1-3
144,000 – 7.4-9
Doxology – 7.10-12
Martyrs in white – 7.13-17
*Silences – 8.1 seventh seal

Ok let start. I will be covering the “four horsemen” today and I will try to post my comments on the fifth, and sixth seal and 144,000.

Rev 6:2-8 WEB (version)
(2) And behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow. A crown was given to him, and he came forth conquering, and to conquer.
(3) When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come!"
(4) Another came forth, a red horse. To him who sat on it was given power to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another. There was given to him a great sword.
(5) When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come and see!" And behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a balance in his hand.
(6) I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A choenix of wheat for a denarius, and three choenix of barley for a denarius! Don't damage the oil and the wine!"
(7) When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the fourth living creature saying, "Come and see!"
(8) And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him.



Well as we begin in chapter we have a vision of the “The Lamb of God” opening the seals on the scroll, (I hope you guys have read the chapters up to this point, if not please do so, because it fills in the background. Like I said I would only deal with the visions parts.)

Just a little background on the scroll, for those who are not clear about this, scrolls were the way that written communication were kept. The scrolls were a roll of animal skin or papyrus (flattened reeds) and they would contain anything from a royal decree to a group’s history, to the Jewish Law. Seals were an important part of the scroll especially for royal purposes, if a scroll was sealed; this was done normally by way of some wax and a signet or royal symbol pressed into the wax, only the person to whom it was sent to had the authority to open the seal, it was a kind of security device to insure that only the people who were meant to read it read it.

So in chapter five the scroll with seven seals are introduced, and no one is able to open it, save the Lamb, so he is the only one who is authorized or was worth to open the seals. So the events of the seven seals are the authorized Judgments of the Lamb and began by the Lamb.

Conquest
War
Famine/Plagues
Death

Now what I have said so far is not at all unlike what a futurists would teach in fact many places preterists and futurists would agree about the meaning of the symbols but would disagree on the timing. A futurist might see this as the reign of the anti-christ, where as the preterist see this as the events as the judgment of Israel.

Now the Romans coming to Israel already had authority in the land but never truly conquered Israel but more inherited it through a long line of rulers that goes back to Alexander the great. So it is not to hard to see the Romans came not only to suppress the zealots and to establish their rule in the land.

The first four are the end result of any conquest, war by the party being conquered, Famine in the land because the land is scoured for food by both sides and supplies for the war, and in all wars there is death.

These events are all events that happened in the prelude and in the siege of Jerusalem. A great work of historical importance is “The works of Josephus – The war of the Jews” it is a historical recount of the events leading up to and including the siege of Jerusalem. It is from the Jews and Romans perspective.

The conquest begins in roughly August a.d. 66, when Cestius, Agrippa and another king took Joppa after an uprising; this is after many smaller events that are the back drop of the war. Josephus goes in to greater detail than this limited space allows.

The war, like most, did not just spring up everywhere at once but moved from the north to the south. The Romans initially send Vespasian in to deal with the problem, and after conquering many of the northern areas including Galilee and was heading to Jerusalem, when he was unexpectedly stopped after the death/suicide of Nero Caesar and many other events finally lead to Vespasian ascending the throne and his son Titus took over the war with the Jews and to crush Jerusalem.

I know so far this seems like a history lesson rather than an explanation of the vision, but the history lends itself to understanding the visions.

These first two seals are the Romans invading and the war between the Jews and the Romans. These are both a general events but as we will see the events be come very specific about Jerusalem.

God gave the divine “right” to the Romans to conquer Jerusalem as his agent of judgment just as he used the Babylonians earlier in history and if we had a first person account of the Babylonian conquest, we could look and see the fulfillment of prophecies of prophets like Isaiah. We have the unique ability to look at God’s judgment from both sides the historical and the Divine prophecy.

This fit well with the imagery of verse 2:

Rev 6:2 WEB
(2) And behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow. A crown was given to him, and he came forth conquering, and to conquer.


The rider was given authority to not just go forth to try and conquer but to actually do conquer. Which the Romans did, and the end result was a nation conquered and a city leveled.

This next verse seem to have a obvious problem for preterist is the “the earth” but after much reading this section and in most instances I found the word translated Earth can also be translated Land. To a Jew the land is always the promise land, Israel. This also is the same for verse 6.8 the fourth seal

Rev 6:4 WEB
(4) Another came forth, a red horse. To him who sat on it was given power to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another. There was given to him a great sword.


So authority was given to take peace from Israel, the time period was full of battles and fights between different groups not just outside but also internal skirmishes between different factions positioning for power. So the Romans were not the only one who killed the Jews, but Jews killed themselves.


In this next verse I will use a very readable version so we understand the scale of the famine:

"A quart of wheat for a day's pay or three quarts of barley for a day's pay.”

Josephus gives us a glimpse of the life of those in the siege

“Many there were indeed who sold what they had for one measure; it was of wheat, if they were of the richer sort; but of barley, if they were poorer.”
Josephus 5.10.2 (These numbers are Book, Chapter, and Paragraph.)

The second part was always very hard to understand even as a futurist;

“But do not damage the olive oil and the wine.”

But after reading Josephus I saw that the priest in the temple kept in the wine and the oil these items were not touched in the temple until later in the siege after the food had all been plundered:

But as for John, when he could no longer plunder the people, he betook himself to sacrilege, and melted down many of the sacred utensils . . . . . on which account he emptied the vessels of that sacred wine and oil, which the priests kept to be poured on the burnt-offerings, and which lay in the inner court of the temple, and distributed it among the multitude, who, in their anointing themselves and drinking, used [each of them] above an hin of them. Josephus 5.13.6

Because of the siege there was wide spread food shortages and those trapped in Jerusalem were forced to go the most extreme measures. Also a striking a parallel can be found in Duet. 26 and in the writings of Josephus.


****Notices**** I know this is a family forum so due to the graphic nature of history I suggest that anyone with a weak stomach or a weakness for blood or horror should cautioned that it is very graphic!!

I will just post it and say nothing more.
Another Description Of The Terrible Famine That Was In The City
4. Now there was a certain woman that dwelt beyond Jordan, her name was Mary; her father was Eleazar, of the village Bethezub, which signifies the House of Hyssop. She was eminent for her family and her wealth, and had fled away to Jerusalem with the rest of the multitude , and was with them besieged therein at this time. The other effects of this woman had been already seized upon; such I mean as she had brought with her out of Perea, and removed to the city. What she had treasured up besides, as also what food she had contrived to save, had also been carried off by the rapacious guards, who came every day running into her house for that purpose. This put the poor woman into a very great passion, and by the frequent reproaches and imprecations she cast at these rapacious villains, she had provoked them to anger against her; but none of them, either out of the indignation she had raised against herself, or out of the commiseration of her case, would take away her life (1); and if she found any food, she perceived her labours were for others, and not for herself; and it was now become impossible for her any way to find any more food, while the famine pierced through her very bowels and marrow, when also her passion was fired to a degree beyond the famine itself: nor did she consult with anything but with her passion and the necessity she was in. She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child sucking at her breast, she said, "O thou miserable infant! for whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition ? As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves! The famine also will destroy us, even before that slavery comes upon us; yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other. Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets and a byeword to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews." As soon as she had said this, she slew her son; and then roasted him, and ate one half of him (2), and kept the other half by her concealed. Upon this the seditious come in presently, and smelling the horrid scent of this food, they threatened her that they would cut her throat immediately if she did not shew them what food she had gotten ready. She replied, that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them; and withal uncovered what was left of her son. Hereupon they were seized with a horror and amazement of mind, and stood astonished at the sight; when she said to them "This is mine own son; and what hath been done was mine own doing! Come, eat of this food; for I have eaten of it myself! Do not you pretend to be either more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother; but if you be so scrupulous, and do abominate this my sacrifice, as I have eaten the one half, let the rest be reserved for me also." After which, those men went out trembling, being never so much affrighted at anything as they were at this, and with some difficulty they left the rest of that meat to the mother. Upon which, the whole city was full of horrid action immediately; and while everyone laid this miserable case before their own eyes, they trembled, as if this unheard-of-action had been done by themselves. So those that were thus distressed by the famine were very desirous to die (1); and those already dead were esteemed happy, because they had not live long enough either to hear or see such miseries.

Deu 28:47-57 WEB
(47) Because you didn't serve Yahweh your God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, by reason of the abundance of all things;
(48) therefore shall you serve your enemies whom Yahweh shall send against you, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron on your neck, until he have destroyed you.
(49) Yahweh will bring a nation against you from far, from the end of the earth, as the eagle flies; a nation whose language you shall not understand;
(50) a nation of fierce facial expressions, that shall not regard the person of the old, nor show favor to the young,
(51) and shall eat the fruit of your cattle, and the fruit of your ground, until you are destroyed; that also shall not leave you grain, new wine, or oil, the increase of your cattle, or the young of your flock, until they have caused you to perish.
(52) They shall besiege you in all your gates, until your high and fortified walls come down, in which you trusted, throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you in all your gates throughout all your land, which Yahweh your God has given you.
(53) You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters, whom Yahweh your God has given you, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemies shall distress you.
(54) The man who is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children whom he has remaining;
(55) so that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat, because he has nothing left him, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in all your gates.
(56) The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not adventure to set the sole of her foot on the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
(57) and toward her young one who comes out from between her feet, and toward her children whom she shall bear; for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in your gates.



Now on to the last of the four horsemen,

Rev 6:7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the fourth living creature saying, "Come and see!"
Rev 6:8 And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him.


About the usage of earth see the second seal.

Numbers are often seen as a symbolic so in a highly symbolic passage it is natural to see the “fourth of the earth” to be a symbol also.

The massive volume of Jews slaughtered in the total conquest was massive, due largely to the fact that zealots would not allow people to leave before hand with out paying a bribe, so only those who were rich or had sold goods had the ability to leave even then not all left. And the deaths resulted from many factors including, after the Romans laid siege many Jews who gave up were either killed by their own countrymen or by roman guards who had heard rumors that the Jews were sneaking gold out by swallowing the gold and would split open those they caught. This is on top of those who died of starvation, battle and infighting among the Jews.

Well this is a good stopping point, and I will try and post late Saturday or early Sunday.

Let me know how this is going too much, to little? Thanks!



:studyhound:

[Dave G]

That's great! This is a good summary, studyhound. It's helping me understand a lot.

[Stephen]

Awesome studyhound. Between you and DD, I'm getting a whole lot of insight on these passages.

That quote about the famine compared to the scripture verse is mindboggling.

Thanks for spending your time in this :smile:

[dizzle]

I was just thinkng that this is a good complement to the other thread we are doing. Any research on the earthquakes yet? I have been pretty busy thumping heads lately so I have not had any time yet.

[Abigail]

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108678,00.htm

[Xavier]

Awesome StudyHound... I'm VERY impressed... I like the amount of detail used....

Thanks for the wonderful work you've done for us.

Yours,
Xavier

[Xavier]

Abigail:

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108678,00.html

1) You need to add on 'L' onto the end. (I've corrected it here.)
2) Please tell us in the future as to what that is... (Kinda scared me a bit... :smile: )

Thanks,
Xavier

[dizzle]

I got really worried when I saw the pot leaf.

[Stephen]

DD, I haven't studied the earthquakes yet, but I've at least been keeping it a point to study Matthew 23 & 24 frequently to keep it fresh. I'm gonna be checking out the earthquake stuff probably this afternoon

[Xavier]

Found something...

Dead Sea Earthquakes

These results are consistent with historic earthquakes of 1212 or 1293 AD; 31 BC, 30 AD, 33 AD or 48 AD.

http://www.rug.nl/ees/onderzoek/projecten/archeology/archeology5

Yours,
Xavier

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Great job Studyhound.

I especially like it that you noted the similarities between AD 70 and Deut. 28.

Realize that Deuteronomy is a treaty between Israel and Jehovah, (It follows the established pattern of suzerainty treaties established between kings and their people commonly used in the ANE) And that Chapter 28 deals specifically with the consequences for failure to keep the treaty. IOW Deut 28 deals with the consequences of breaking the covenant. When Israel rejected Jesus as the Messiah, that was the ultimate breaking of the covenant established in Deut.

Revelation, on the other hand, is a declaration by God that the covenant has been broken, and the judgments promised for breaking the covenant will be delivered. It is a breaking of the old covenant with ethnic Israel, but it also establishes a new covenant. [Compare the harlot (the Jews who rejected the Messiah) and the bride (the Church), but I don't want to get too far ahead]

Keep up the good work SH. You make me proud to be a preterist.

Pearls for you.

[studyhound]

Faramir:

Great job Studyhound.

I especially like it that you noted the similarities between AD 70 and Deut. 28.

Realize that Deuteronomy is a treaty between Isreal and Jehovah, (It followes the established pattern of suzerainty treaties established between kings and their people commonly used in the ANE) And that Chapter 28 deals specifically with the consequences for failure to keep the treaty. IOW Deut 28 deals with the consequences of breaking the covenant. When Isreal rejected Jesus as the Messiah, that was the ultimate breaking of the covenant established in Deut.

Revelation, on the other hand, is a declaration by God, that the covenant has been broken, and the judgements promised for breaking the covenant will be delivered. It is a breaking of the old covenant with ethnic Isreal, but it also establishes a new covenant. [Compare the harlot (the Jews who rejected the Messiah) and the bride (the Church), but I don't want to get too far ahead]

Keep up the good work SH. You make me proud to be a preterist.

Pearls for you.


Thanks Faramir, its funny about a year ago I got an incredible urge to read through the Law especially Numbers and Deuteronomy, this was on the tale of reading Josephus and The Revelation. At reading it to say I was shocked is an understatement, the similarities was more than just a coincidence.

Thanks again for the encouragement, I was really nervous on how this come out cause I have never put up something of this volume on the Internet or even let anyone read this much of my writings. I am so glad it has been received well ,so far.


:studyhound:

[studyhound]

Ok lets see how far my brain will take me tonight. I am shooting for the last three seals and the 144,000.

Rev 6:9-17 WEB
(9) When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed for the Word of God, and for the testimony of the Lamb which they had.
(10) They cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, Master, the holy and true, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
(11) A long white robe was given to each of them. They were told that they should rest yet for a while, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who would also be killed even as they were, should complete their course.
(12) I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became as blood.
(13) The stars of the sky fell to the earth, like a fig tree dropping its unripe figs when it is shaken by a great wind.
(14) The sky was removed like a scroll when it is rolled up. Every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
(15) The kings of the earth, the princes, the commanding officers, the rich, the strong, and every slave and free person, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains.
(16) They told the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
(17) for the great day of his wrath has come; and who is able to stand?"

Rev 7:1-17 WEB
(1) After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth, or on the sea, or on any tree.
(2) I saw another angel ascend from the sunrise, having the seal of the living God. He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was given to harm the earth and the sea,
(3) saying, "Don't harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!"
(4) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
(5) Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
(6) Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
(7) Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
(8) Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
(9) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
(10) They cried with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation be to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
(11) All the angels were standing around the throne, the elders, and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before his throne, and worshiped God,
(12) saying, "Amen! Blessing, glory, wisdom, thanksgiving, honor, power, and might, be to our God forever and ever! Amen."
(13) One of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?"
(14) I told him, "My lord, you know." He said to me, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb's blood.
(15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
(16) They will never be hungry, neither thirsty any more; neither will the sun beat on them, nor any heat;
(17) for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne shepherds them, and leads them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

We continue with the sixth seal, the seal of those “killed for the Word of God, and for the testimony of the Lamb which they had” this is a sudden change seemingly to the flow of the seals especially when we get to the next seal. This is not about judgment or about Israel but about the martyrs. So why the sudden shift?

Well Lets take a look at the history of the time, who were the first persecutors of the early church? Who gave us the first martyr Stephen? Who sent out people (Saul for example) to slaughter the Christians?

Act 9:1 But Saul, still breathing threats and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest,

The Jews of course, they went after the Christian, many of the early apostle and church fathers were killed by the Jews. If you accept the traditions here is a small list:

Stephen
James
Matthias
James the Less (the author of James the epistle likely the half brother of Jesus)

An interesting note that the souls of the martyrs are under an altar; this seems to be an allusion to Ex 29.12 were the instruction on how to sacrifice the Bull.

As Christian we are to live our lives as a living sacrifice to the LORD, some pay that devotion with their very lives. Paul even says in Romans:

Rom 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. Web


Paul says about himself in Philippians:

Phi 2:17 But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and sacred service of your faith , I rejoice, and I rejoice together with you all.


God is one who will avenge the blood of his own:

Deut 32:43 Rejoice, you nations, with his people: For he will avenge the blood of his servants, Will render vengeance to his adversaries, Will make expiation for his land, for his people

And those under the alter know this, that is why we have this question:

How long, Master, the holy and true, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

God was waiting for the full amount of the sins to be completed;

They were told that they should rest yet for a while, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who would also be killed even as they were, should complete their course.

These under the altar are not just the apostles and the early Christians but also the prophets of old. Jesus seems to use similar language in Matthew:

Mat 23:31-36 WEB
(31) Therefore you testify to yourselves that you are children of those who killed the prophets.
(32) Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.
(33) You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna?
(34) Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify; and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city;
(35) that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom you killed between the sanctuary and the altar.
(36) Most assuredly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.



This seal I have been looking forward to I see as being really pivotal to understanding the type of language used in Revelation.

Let me bring it up to refresh our memories:

(12) I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became as blood.
(13) The stars of the sky fell to the earth, like a fig tree dropping its unripe figs when it is shaken by a great wind.
(14) The sky was removed like a scroll when it is rolled up. Every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
(15) The kings of the earth, the princes, the commanding officers, the rich, the strong, and every slave and free person, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains.
(16) They told the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
(17) for the great day of his wrath has come; and who is able to stand?"

Now I am sure some of you have heard it said that to understand Revelation you have to be a student of the Old Testament. If not, well, now you have heard it. But this is so very true, I am not sure of the exact statistics on revelation but something in the neighborhood of half of Revelations is either a quote of or an a allusion to an Old Testament passage. This section has many OT references.

I will give some parallels to these verses and attempt to give a “face“ to the symbols.

The earthquake seems like a limited understanding, though in most cases it is appropriate wording, but it can also be used to indicate a upheaval or a disruption. In the OT when God show his anger “the earth shakes” And given again the highly symbolic nature of the section, a literal earthquake seems highly unlikely. Especially since the next two verses are mostly about heavenly or cosmological events.

(12) I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became as blood.

Compare this to the Prophecy of Isaiah where God is promising judgment against the Babylonians.

Isa 13:9-13 WEB
(9) Behold, the day of Yahweh comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners of it out of it.
(10) For the stars of the sky and the constellations of it shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.
(11) I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity: and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
(12) I will make a man more rare than fine gold, even a man than the pure gold of Ophir.
(13) Therefore I will make the heavens to tremble, and the earth shall be shaken out of its place, in the wrath of Yahweh of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


Again we have a celestial event.

(13) The stars of the sky fell to the earth, like a fig tree dropping its unripe figs when it is shaken by a great wind.
(14) The sky was removed like a scroll when it is rolled up. Every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

This passage is almost worded exactly like a passage in Isaiah, where he is prophesying the destruction of Edom.

Isa 34:4-5 WEB
(4) All the host of the sky shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fade away, as the leaf fades from off the vine, and as a fading leaf from the fig tree.
(5) For my sword has drunk its fill in the sky: behold, it shall come down on Edom, and on the people of my curse, to judgment.



So now judgment is proclaimed on the Jews. Now these verses I have just showed, can be understood one of two ways by preterists.

1. A symbolic proclamation. Or how someone might explain it

It seems very clear that this seal is saying in no uncertain terms that the lights are out for the Jews (I know very puny), but that is what the imagery leads us to see, the sun is setting on them, they are not fruitful, its time to roll away with the old (Heb. Heb 8:13).


2. Or semi-literal. Or how someone might explain it

These are symbolic of how the siege events took place. I.e. the falling stars are arrow or other pyrotechnic warfare. The darkness is due to the smoke, and the blood red some is also a by-product of the fire. The earthquake could be from the catapults firing large boulders in to the city.

I see, personly, both of these having a place, # 1 for the first half of the verse and #2 for the second half of the verse. In reading the history of the events the Jews fell back to another location.

In many instances they hid in mountains. For someone familiar with the period Masada is a tragic event and a telling one also.

Masada was the fortress of king Herod and after the fall of Jerusalem the remaining zealots and rebel Jews fled here. Masada is a hill top fortress nearly impenetrable, and so the remaining holdouts made their last stand here. In the end rather than become slaves or have their wife’s abused or children be slaves they committed mass murder and suicide.

1. NOW as Eleazar was proceeding on in this exhortation, they all cut him off short, and made haste to do the work, as full of an unconquerable ardor of mind, and moved with a demoniacal fury. So they went their ways, as one still endeavoring to be before another, and as thinking that this eagerness would be a demonstration of their courage and good conduct, if they could avoid appearing in the last class; so great was the zeal they were in to slay their wives and children, and themselves also! Nor indeed, when they came to the work itself, did their courage fail them, as one might imagine it would have done, but they then held fast the same resolution, without wavering, which they had upon the hearing of Eleazar's speech, while yet every one of them still retained the natural passion of love to themselves and their families, because the reasoning they went upon appeared to them to be very just, even with regard to those that were dearest to them; for the husbands tenderly embraced their wives, and took their children into their arms, and gave the longest parting kisses to them, with tears in their eyes. Yet at the same time did they complete what they had resolved on, as if they had been executed by the hands of strangers; and they had nothing else for their comfort but the necessity they were in of doing this execution, to avoid that prospect they had of the miseries they were to suffer from their enemies. Nor was there at length any one of these men found that scrupled to act their part in this terrible execution, but every one of them despatched his dearest relations. Miserable men indeed were they! whose distress forced them to slay their own wives and children with their own hands, as the lightest of those evils that were before them. So they being not able to bear the grief they were under for what they had done any longer, and esteeming it an injury to those they had slain, to live even the shortest space of time after them, they presently laid all they had upon a heap, and set fire to it. They then chose ten men by lot out of them to slay all the rest; every one of whom laid himself down by his wife and children on the ground, and threw his arms about them, and they offered their necks to the stroke of those who by lot executed that melancholy office; and when these ten had, without fear, slain them all, they made the same rule for casting lots for themselves, that he whose lot it was should first kill the other nine, and after all should kill himself. Accordingly, all these had courage sufficient to be no way behind one another in doing or suffering; so, for a conclusion, the nine offered their necks to the executioner, and he who was the last of all took a view of all the other bodies, lest perchance some or other among so many that were slain should want his assistance to be quite despatched, and when he perceived that they were all slain, he set fire to the palace, and with the great force of his hand ran his sword entirely through himself, and fell down dead near to his own relations. So these people died with this intention, that they would not leave so much as one soul among them all alive to be subject to the Romans. Yet was there an ancient woman, and another who was of kin to Eleazar, and superior to most women in prudence and learning, with five children, who had concealed themselves in caverns under ground, and had carried water thither for their drink, and were hidden there when the rest were intent upon the slaughter of one another. Those others were nine hundred and sixty in number, the women and children being withal included in that computation. This calamitous slaughter was made on the fifteenth day of the month Xanthicus.


We now have an interesting section here an interlude between the seals.

I would like at this moment deal with a thought I had concerning the seals and the scroll. A question came to my mind whether the seals are opened one at a time and the events happen in a sequence or do all of the seals need to be opened to read the contents of the scroll. Remember the scroll is a document to be read, not just sealed.

Now if we are following a timeline this would a step back. But if we are waiting for all the seals to be opened then the sealing of God’s people could happen before the first judgment happens.

:studyhound:

<Had to break it up>

[studyhound]

Part II



Now the four angels are holding back the wind, but its not just a storm they are holding back but if you remember in chapter six we saw a vision that had to do with wind;

Rev 6:13 WEB
(13) The stars of the sky fell to the earth, like a fig tree dropping its unripe figs when it is shaken by a great wind.


The angels are holding back judgment, if you recall in the last post Vespasian was almost to Jerusalem but was recalled by the death of Nero. It is no doubt that Vespasian would have had the same outcome as Titus, his son and destroyed Jerusalem. So why the change, well if you believe in luck that maybe one answer, or we can look to scripture for the answer.

Luk 21:20 WEB
(20) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is at hand.

Jesus gave a warning to his followers to flee Jerusalem when the judgment was upon them. Twice Jerusalem was destroyed, once in A.D. 70 and earlier in B.C. 586. The Babylonians took the city and destroyed it but Ezekiel gave us a glimpse into the salvation the LORD provide those who wept over the spiritual condition of Israel.

(Eze 9:1 Then he cried in my ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause you them that have charge over the city to draw near, every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
Eze 9:2 Behold, six men came from the way of the upper gate, which lies toward the north, every man with his slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man in the midst of them clothed in linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side. They went in, and stood beside the brazen altar.
Eze 9:3 The glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon it was, to the threshold of the house: and he called to the man clothed in linen, who had the writer's inkhorn by his side.
Eze 9:4 Yahweh said to him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark on the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry over all the abominations that are done in the midst of It.
Eze 9:5 To the others he said in my hearing, Go you through the city after him, and strike: don't let your eye spare, neither have you pity;
Eze 9:6 kill utterly the old man, the young man and the virgin, and little children and women; but don't come near any man on whom is the mark: and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the old men that were before the house. )


So we see the protection of the Lord in the midst of his people even in times of judgment.

This brings us to the 144,000. But who are these 144,000? We see them again in chapter 14 and are given the explanation of whom they are. I will deal more thoroughly when we arrive there. For now we will just deal with this passage.

This grouping of the twelve tribes has a notable changes, Dan is entirely omitted, also Manasseh is added.

Here is the list from Revelation

Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher,
Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi,
Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin



This is the list from Gen. 49

Simeon, Levi, Reuben, Judah
Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad
Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, Benjamin

These bondservants are Christian, but the are also Jewish. The numerology is very obvious here. It all depends on how much you read into it and the meaning of the numbers.

Well the 144,000 is likely seen as a description of the complete group of Jewish believers.

12 x12x1000=144,000 ~ Two sets of twelve, very simply can be the twelve tribes and the twelve apostles. This theme is seen later in Revelation at the foundation and the gates of the new Jerusalem.



Jamieson, Fausset and Brown in their commentary give a definition of the symbolic meaning of thousand.

A thousand implies the world perfectly pervaded by the divine; for it is ten, the world number, raised to the power of three, the number of God.

**I said I was going to wait to comment on the 144,000 till chapter 14 but as I thought further I thought that a small note would be appropriate here. I will only spend a short time on this and expand on the thought later. This is to make a little clearer the contrast of the two groups in chapter 7.4-17

The 144,000 are, in chapter 14, called the first fruits of God. Now a plain understanding would lead us to see the 12 apostles and their disciples as the first fruit. They are the ones who went in to the whole world spreading the gospel.**

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

(9) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
(10) They cried with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation be to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
(11) All the angels were standing around the throne, the elders, and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before his throne, and worshiped God,
(12) saying, "Amen! Blessing, glory, wisdom, thanksgiving, honor, power, and might, be to our God forever and ever! Amen."
(13) One of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?"
(14) I told him, "My lord, you know." He said to me, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb's blood.
(15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
(16) They will never be hungry, neither thirsty any more; neither will the sun beat on them, nor any heat;
(17) for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne shepherds them, and leads them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."


Now we have another group, they seem to be a contrast to the 144,000. These seem to be either gentile believers, because they are contrasted with the “sons of Israel” or they are Jews living out side the borders of Israel, The same description is given to those at Pentecost.

They worship God clothed in white, just like the martyrs of the fifth seal. So at some point they are martyred. The washing of their robes in the blood of the lamb is a picture of their salvation so there is no doubt that they are Christian, just to which group do they belong to?

They also came out of the great tribulation; so they are believers who made it through the fall of Jerusalem but met the fate of the next great persecution, the Roman.


:studyhound:

Next time the last seal and to the end of chapter eight!!

[studyhound]

Ok I was up way to late on this one LOL. you guy may have to wait a couple of day for the next one or till my brain cools off. :shocked:

:droped:
:studyhound:

[Stephen]

Way-to-go studyhound. I'm gonna read this after church...my mind is going to explode if I read it now when I just got up

[Cliodna Emerges]

Studyhound,
You are doing a great job explaining this- thanks! Please continue. (I've been waiting patiently) :smile:

[studyhound]

sapphireskye:

Studyhound,
You are doing a great job explaining this- thanks! Please continue. (I've been waiting patiently) :smile:

Please, fell free to ask any unrelated preterists question. The point of the thread is Revelation but I am willing to answer any other questions. :smile:



:studyhound:

[Dave G]

Yeah, studyhound, it's coming together nicely. I'll print it out after I get some more printer paper.
Do Daniel's prophecies relate here? I would always become confused when people like John Hagee would try to tie in Daniel with Revelation, and it seemed forced to me.

You're doing a great job.

[studyhound]

Hey sorry about the delay but, I had a week!!! B-day and family stuff and work stuff So please be patience:bow: and I will have the next chapter (8) done and up by Sunday!! I will try to get up the next chapter early next week (Tuesday or Wednesday). My goal is to get up two a week so I don’t drag this on for to long. Plus answering any side questions.


:studyhound:

[studyhound]

Yeah, studyhound, it's coming together nicely. I'll print it out after I get some more printer paper.
Do Daniel's prophecies relate here? I would always become confused when people like John Hagee would try to tie in Daniel with Revelation, and it seemed forced to me.

You're doing a great job.
Well the writing style is both apocalyptic, and some of them share the visions of the same events but, there is most of the time no real IMHO one to one coalition, with out getting in to specifics I would say that most of the time people like Hagee have to stretch the verses to fit their theology. Though there are some parallels Daniel is told to seal the prophecies of the book and John is told not to because the events are at hand.



:studyhound:

[Xavier]

Looking forward to it... :teeth:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Doing a great job SH. Keep up the good work.

[dizzle]

I have no idea how or why this thread got closed... it was accidental by some means. I am reopening it.

[Xavier]

Thanks DD... :smile:

[studyhound]

Ok I know I am bad I said sunday but. . . . . .
one I was locked out for a couple of days :rant:
Two I was alomst done and I lost have of chapter eight, and I write things down and do not memorize them so I have to start from almost scratch for the last half of the chapter.
three I am hit and miss for work they are only working me 3 to 4 days a week max, so when I am at home I am looking for work. :rant:

So I will really try to finish friday or saturday, needless to say I will be AWOL on paltalk untill I am done. And wont be posting here till I am done.

Untill then here's Jo-jo to entertain you :Mdance:


:studyhound:

[Dave G]

Ok I know I am bad I said sunday but. . . . . .
one I was locked out for a couple of days :rant:
Two I was alomst done and I lost have of chapter eight, and I write things down and do not memorize them so I have to start from almost scratch for the last half of the chapter.
three I am hit and miss for work they are only working me 3 to 4 days a week max, so when I am at home I am looking for work. :rant:

So I will really try to finish friday or saturday, needless to say I will be AWOL on paltalk untill I am done. And wont be posting here till I am done.

Untill then here's Jo-jo to entertain you :Mdance:


:studyhound:
You should make a book out of it and hock it at Church potluck dinners and revivals. So much for working! There are so many ways of fleecing the flock that you wouldn't have much trouble. Not that it wouldn't be a great and helpful book. It would.:hehe:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

You should make a book out of it and hock it at Church potluck dinners and revivals. So much for working! There are so many ways of fleecing the flock that you wouldn't have much trouble. Not that it wouldn't be a great and helpful book. It would.:hehe:

ot/ The problem with that train of thought is that most of "the flock" don't want sound exegisis (sp?) that tells them that most prophecy is past. They want sensations stories of the near future "as predected in the Bible".

If I wanted to make money fleecing the flock, I would write a sensationalistic parody of my true interpretation of eschatological passages, would write it at about a third grade level, and present as my actual beliefs.


(Too bad Tim LaHaye beat me to it. :doh: )

[studyhound]

You should make a book out of it and hock it at Church potluck dinners and revivals. So much for working! There are so many ways of fleecing the flock that you wouldn't have much trouble. Not that it wouldn't be a great and helpful book. It would.:hehe:
Thats funny I have had a couple people I know, who said I should do that. But I figure I dont have enough little titles behind my name to do that. You know titles P.H.D., B.A., D.V.D., B.S., Now-a-days just bing a spirit lead Bible beliving, Christian is not enough :ahem:

:studyhound:

BTW The next chapter is Up!!!

[studyhound]

Silence – 8.1
Seventh seal Prelude to trumpets - 8.2
Golden censer and prayers of the saints – 8.3,4
Censer is cast down to the earth – 8.5
The seven trumpets Vegetation burned up - First trumpet - 8.6,7
Third Sea becomes blood – second trumpet – 8.8,9
Wormwood third of fresh water becomes bitter – third trumpet – 8.10,11
Third of the sun, moon, stars, become dark – fourth trumpet – 8.12
Angel in the heaven’s crying woe because of the last three trumpets. - 8.13



I will say as a general rule Preterist can see either semi-literal or spiritual fulfillment. I thought I would interject this here. As I was considering the trumpet judgments I thought this is something to be said. I will try to present both sides.

Rev 8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Rev 8:2 I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. Rev 8:3 Another angel came and stood over the altar, having a golden censer. Much incense was given to him, that he should add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. Rev 8:4 The smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand. Rev 8:5 The angel took the censer, and he filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it on the earth. There followed thunders, sounds, lightnings, and an earthquake. At the beginning of chapter eight we now come to the last seal to be opened. The last seal is silence. In the previous seals the meaning was quite apparent to those reading, here we have the seal opened, and then we move to the prelude of the trumpets being sounded. Then a scene of a censer being cast to earth, and various types of events happen. What seems to be happening is that there a time of silence two things are happening,

One is that there is a time of preparation where the next sets of judgments are prepared

And two also incenses is offered up at a golden altar, the silences and incense seems to be a allusion to Luke. 1.8-10

Luk 1:8 Now it happened, while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his division,

Luk 1:9 according to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to enter into the temple of the Lord and burn incense.

Luk 1:10 The whole multitude of the people were praying outside at the hour of incense.

The events in verse five are seemingly the answer to the prayers of those under the altar in Rev. 6.10. Though not specific they do use again the similar imagery at the first seals.


Now a point to consider, a preterists holds these judgments are against, Israel. Not the land or the city of Jerusalem itself. So the question is why is God doing these things, I see three main reasons.

(I know some people will take exception to this view, if they want to debate it, start another thread and invite me there)

1. God gave the land of Israel conditionally; they were given the right to use the land as tenants. God is the rightful owner of the land (Lev 25:23) and the Jews were under conditions to continue to possess the land. (Lev 18:26) Time and time again they broke the conditions of the agreement and God fulfilled his promises. (Lev 18:27-29)

2. In mass the Jews rejected Christ, at his first coming, (John 19:15) and calling judgment upon themselves and their children for his wrongful death. (Mat 27:25)

3. We see the third reason in the last chapter, the persecution of the righteous, for the martyrs, the believers, the prophets and apostles. (Matt.23.30-35, Luke 11.47, Acts 7.52) Rev 8:6 The seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. Rev 8:7 The first sounded, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. One third of the earth was burnt up, and one third of the trees were burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. Here in this judgment we have an unlikely combination of hail, fire and blood raining down on the “earth” (See my comments On Rev. 6.4) destroying a third of the trees and the green grass. The burning of the trees and grass is very similar to some passages in the Psalms when God was speaking of the wicked and his judgment upon them. (Psa 37:2, Psa 37:35, Psa 92:7,) The “third” is a bit more interesting, the idea of a third is destroyed seems to be an allusion to Eze. 5.12. Eze 5:2 A third part shall you burn in the fire in the midst of the city , when the days of the siege are fulfilled; and you shall take a third part, and strike with the sword round about it; and a third part you shall scatter to the wind, and I will draw out a sword after them. Of course one can take a more literal view, Josephus talks of the length of the war and the desperate means the Romans took to fortify their siege embankments.

6.1.1 . . . . .And now the Romans, although they were greatly distressed in getting together their materials, raised their banks in one and twenty days, after they had cut down all the trees that were in the country that adjoined to the city, and that for ninety furlongs (a furlong is 1/8 of a mile or about 11 miles total(this note mine ) round about, as I have already related. And truly the very view itself of the country was a melancholy thing; for those places which were before adorned with trees and pleasant gardens were now become a desolate country every way, and its trees were all cut down: nor could any foreigner that had formerly seen Judea and the most beautiful suburbs of the city, and now saw it as a desert, but lament and mourn sadly at so great a change: for the war had laid all the signs of beauty quite waste: nor if any one that had known the place before, had come on a sudden to it now, would he have known it again; but though he were at the city itself, yet would he have inquired for it notwithstanding. Rev 8:8 The second angel sounded, and something like a great burning mountain was thrown into the sea. One third of the sea became blood, Rev 8:9 and one third of the living creatures which were in the sea died. One third of the ships were destroyed. Admittedly this is (at least for myself) one of the more difficult passages to understand, as a preterists.

I will start with the more literal view. Josephus records a sea battle between the Jews and Romans.

3.10.9. But now, when the vessels were gotten ready, Vespasian put upon ship-board as many of his forces as he thought sufficient to be too hard for those that were upon the lake, and set sail after them. Now these which were driven into the lake could neither fly to the land, where all was in their enemies' hand, and in war against them; nor could they fight upon the level by sea, for their ships were small and fitted only for piracy; they were too weak to fight with Vespasian's vessels, and the mariners that were in them were so few, that they were afraid to come near the Romans, who attacked them in great numbers. However, as they sailed round about the vessels, and sometimes as they came near them, they threw stones at the Romans when they were a good way off, or came closer and fought them; yet did they receive the greatest harm themselves in both cases. As for the stones they threw at the Romans, they only made a sound one after another, for they threw them against such as were in their armor, while the Roman darts could reach the Jews themselves; and when they ventured to come near the Romans, they became sufferers themselves before they could do any harm to the ether, and were drowned, they and their ships together. As for those that endeavored to come to an actual fight, the Romans ran many of them through with their long poles. Sometimes the Romans leaped into their ships, with swords in their hands, and slew them; but when some of them met the vessels, the Romans caught them by the middle, and destroyed at once their ships and themselves who were taken in them. And for such as were drowning in the sea, if they lifted their heads up above the water, they were either killed by darts, or caught by the vessels; but if, in the desperate case they were in, they attempted to swim to their enemies, the Romans cut off either their heads or their hands; and indeed they were destroyed after various manners every where, till the rest being put to flight, were forced to get upon the land, while the vessels encompassed them about [on the sea]: but as many of these were repulsed when they were getting ashore, they were killed by the darts upon the lake; and the Romans leaped out of their vessels, and destroyed a great many more upon the land: one might then see the lake all bloody, and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped. And a terrible stink, and a very sad sight there was on the following days over that country; for as for the shores, they were full of shipwrecks, and of dead bodies all swelled; and as the dead bodies were inflamed by the sun, and putrefied, they corrupted the air, insomuch that the misery was not only the object of commiseration to the Jews, but to those that hated them, and had been the authors of that misery. This was the upshot of the sea-fight. The number of the slain, including those that were killed in the city before, was six thousand and five hundred. The casting of the mountain in to the sea is very similar to Jesus’ words in Matt. 21.21,

Mat 21:21 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly I tell you, if you have faith, and don't doubt, you will not only do what is done to the fig tree, but even if you told this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it would be done.

Even more interesting this is in a passage talking about the judgment of Israel, the cursing of the fig tree, both the mountain and the fig tree are symbolic of Israel. (Hos. 9:10, Isa 10:32)

The sea is in the Old Testament some times seen as the wicked or the gentiles. (Isa 57:20)

Zion or Jerusalem is located on a mountain, throughout the Old Testament and New Testament it is described as such or that one would go “up” to Jerusalem, a traveler would climb their way to the city. So a fiery judgment of Israel (Jerusalem) through the wick nation of Rome is quite understandable way to see this.

Rev 8:10 The third angel sounded, and a great star fell from the sky, burning like a torch, and it fell on one third of the rivers, and on the springs of the waters. Rev 8:11 The name of the star is called "Wormwood." One third of the waters became wormwood. Many people died from the waters, because they were made bitter.

I personally find it interesting when talking to people about Revelation, especially the literalists. One example I remember talking to a Hyper-literalist, who held to the literal fulfillment of the symbolism of this book. He believed in a literal star falling, not just a falling star but, a literal Star like the sun, that would strike the earth. His reasoning was so off, that he even believed in a literal dragon and a literal beast. I hold his belief against no group just his teacher, who ever that is. Wormwood is not an uncommon phrase in scripture or in the Middle East. It was a common plant that was use to treat every thing from curing Poisoning to a pesticide to being a poison itself. In small amounts its even safe to drink, but in larger amounts it will cause hallucinogen, and in even larger amount that can cause brain damage or death. When added to water it, no surprise, is bitter.

The Bible uses wormwood many times, in many different ways. (See Deu 29:18, Jer 23:15, Lam 3:15, Lam 3:19, Amos 5.7)

But the most seemingly appropriate verse may be, Jer. 9:13-16 In Jeremiah God speaking of the exile to Babylon, but this could be just as true the Jews of 70ad. Jer 9:13 Yahweh says, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein,

Jer 9:14 but have walked after the stubbornness of their own heart, and after the Baals, which their fathers taught them;

Jer 9:15 therefore thus says Yahweh of Hosts, the God of Israel, Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink.

Jer 9:16 I will scatter them also among the nations, whom neither they nor their fathers have known; and I will send the sword after them, until I have consumed them.


Rev 8:12 The fourth angel sounded, and one third of the sun was struck, and one third of the moon, and one third of the stars; so that one third of them would be darkened, and the day wouldn't shine for one third of it, and the night in the same way. Again we have a celestial event, but slightly different the theme of third’s continues. A third of the sky is darkened, sun, moon and stars. This is very similar to the events in as in the sixth seal. (Rev_6:12-13) But here the it is a partial darkening, or blotting out of the a third of the sky, this could a natural result of the fires that burn in Jerusalem blocking (see my notes on the sixth seal) out the sun or a removal of the part of Israel that was in open rebellion. The “lights” going out could just be those in authority, the zealots and the rebels who took authority and forced the war between the Jews and the destruction of the temple. Rev 8:13 I saw, and I heard an eagle, flying in mid heaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe! Woe! Woe for those who dwell on the earth, because of the other voices of the trumpets of the three angels, who are yet to sound!" This is in preparation for the next three trumpets, which are the worst of the of the trumpet judgments. This is a clear allusion to Hos. 8.1:

Hos 8:1 "Put the trumpet to your lips! Something like an eagle is over Yahweh's house, Because they have broken my covenant, And rebelled against my law.

In fact the previous chapter (7) and chapter eight of Hos., are a sting case against the Jews for their disobedience and lack of repentance. Again this is pre-exile but the condition of the Jews at both times were very similar and the same types of judgments were given, destruction of the temple, death to those who were in Jerusalem and taken off to captivity.


Again I am sorry this took so long to do, and I feel the quality of this section is sub-par for myself if there is any confusion please post it here or PM me. Thanks again and God bless


:studyhound:

[studyhound]

Ok after reviewing the next chapter I will be spliting up 1 - 12 then 13 - 21, cause these are kinda meaty sections.

So now got to work on these no rest for the weary or is that weird??

:studyhound:

[Dave G]

Making a lot of sense. Hope you're able to get enough rest because I look forward to the next section. :thumb:

[Xavier]

:bump:

:whistle:

[studyhound]

Ya ya I know, I got bumped to graveyard this last week and its really messed things up I am almost (:pray:) done with the first half of nine. I hope to do some major writing this weekend so I wont be at paltalk or doing a lot of TWEB ing this weekend!

:studyhound:

[dizzle]

I need to continue on with my Tennis Court thread as well.

[Xavier]

Big :bump: for SH... I'm getting antsy... :teeth:

[studyhound]

Again I am sorry for the delay, but you saw the post before, so yada yada yada. The first Half of Nine, I promise there will be less of a wait for the second half (:pray:)



The sounding of the seventh trumpet – 9.1

Star falling to earth and keys given to the abyss - 9.1

Opening of the opening of the Pit – 9.2

Smoke and came out of the pit 9.3

Locusts/scorpions are given specific commanded on who or what to hurt – 9.4

Locusts/scorpions are told to torment but not kill – 9.5

Death is not found/flees 9.6

A description of the Locusts/scorpions is given 9.7- 10

They call out the name of their king Apollyon - aboddon – 9.11

The end of the first ‘woe’ - 9.12

The sixth trumpet, second ‘woe’ – 9.13

A voice is heard from the altar – 9.13

Four angels that are bound at the Euphrates, kill 1/3 of mankind – 9.14 – 15

A two hundred million-horseman army – 9.16

A description of the men on the horses – 9.17

The three plagues of the army – 9.18

A description of the horses - 9.19

Those who were not killed did not repent of their evil works. 9.20-21



Rev 9:1 The fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from the sky which had fallen to the earth. The key to the pit of the abyss was given to him.

Rev 9:2 He opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke from a burning furnace. The sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke from the pit.



We now begin to look at the first woe and fifth trumpet. There is an obvious change in the manner of the judgment; the woes seem to be a more intense judgment.



With the sounding of the fifth trumpet we have a very interesting image here, we see a star that had fallen, past tense. The key to the abyss was given to the fallen star. In the King James it is present tense but in most other versions I have read it is past tense. Now I am sure the question arises who is the fallen star? Well who has fallen from heaven? Christ descended, but did not fall, but Satan did.



(Luke 10:18 WEB)

He said to them, "I saw Satan having fallen like lightning from heaven.

Satan has been a tool of God’s to judge or to inflict physical torment. (see Job 2:7 )



Keys are often symbolically used to show authority, the keys of the kingdom were given to Peter and the apostles in Matt. 16.19. The star (Satan) is given authority to open the abyss. The abyss is seemingly what is alluded to in Jude 6 and in 2 Peter 2.4, the “holding cell of those angels who did not hold their proper position.



Rev 9:3 Then out of the smoke came forth locusts on the earth, and power was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.



So now we have some Locusts coming out of the earth (again see my comments on Earth in Rev 6.), as they are coming out of the abyss they seem to be of a demonic nature and are only given a measure of power. It makes sense that they are in fact demons because of the kinds of events that happened before during and after the fall of Jerusalem, the cannibalism, murder, rebellion, and the desecration of the temple.



The power that was given is likened to the scorpion, a major but not necessarily a deadly assault. Also scorpions have been a form of symbolic chastisement is the OT,



1Ki 12:11 Now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

1Ki 12:12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam the third day, as the king bade, saying, Come to me again the third day.

1Ki 12:13 The king answered the people roughly, and forsook the counsel of the old men which they had given him,

1Ki 12:14 and spoke to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add to your yoke: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.





Rev 9:4 They were told that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those people who don't have God's seal on their foreheads.

Rev 9:5 They were given power not to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion, when it strikes a person.



These verses of the Revelation can be seems as a description of the nation of Israel in general, or to Jerusalem. The Locusts are sent to hurt those without the seal of God on their forehead. These seem to be the 144,000 of 7.3-8, and also an allusion to Eze 3,



Eze 9:3 The glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon it was, to the threshold of the house: and he called to the man clothed in linen, who had the writer's inkhorn by his side.

Eze 9:4 Yahweh said to him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark on the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry over all the abominations that are done in the midst of it.

Eze 9:5 To the others he said in my hearing, Go you through the city after him, and strike: don't let your eye spare, neither have you pity;

Eze 9:6 kill utterly the old man, the young man and the virgin, and little children and women; but don't come near any man on whom is the mark: and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the old men that were before the house.

Rev 9:6 In those days people will seek death, and will in no way find it. They will desire to die, and death will flee from them.



Is death truly some thing that can flee? Here we have people seeking after death but not necessarily trying to kill themselves.

Tens of thousands of people were trapped in Jerusalem and were forced to live in the most horrific conditions and in these conditions (and even in far less worse conditions people have preferred to die) most people slowly died over the days and months, as there body was ravaged by the lack of food and clean water.





Rev 9:7 The shapes of the locusts were like horses prepared for war. On their heads were something like golden crowns, and their faces were like people's faces.

Rev 9:8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like those of lions.





Ok here is a very difficult section, why, well these symbols can have any number of valid meanings. But any way here goes.



These demons are making war on the humans they intend to posses, conquering and destroying that which they posses.



The seven different parts of the Locust are “like” the real item, i.e. like a golden crown, but they are not golden crowns.



They have something like golden crowns; crowns are a symbol of authority, but they do not have true authority because they were given restrictions and are limited in the scope of their work. But they do have authority to work within their limitations, so they have a type of authority (like a crown).



The have a faces like people's faces, so they seem to have a level of intelligences and capacity to do work in the limitations they are given. Also the fact that spiritual beings have the appearance of humans, see Rev. 4.7, and Exe. 1.10.



They have hair like a woman’s hair, Honestly I have no real answer with the possible exception of two (after scowering some commentaries) that they are that the hair is the antenna of the locust, because there is a Arabic proverb in which the antennae of locusts are compared to girls' hair.



Or the possibility of the those who were trapped were so possessed that they gave themselves over to homosexuality and transvestitism in order to kill and murder those they wanted to.



[Quote] for these Galileans had advanced this John, and made him very potent, who made them suitable requital from the authority he had obtained by their means; for he permitted them to do all things that any of them desired to do, while their inclination to plunder was insatiable, as was their zeal in searching the houses of the rich; and for the murdering of the men, and abusing of the women, it was sport to them. They also devoured what spoils they had taken, together with their blood, and indulged themselves in feminine wantonness, without any disturbance, till they were satiated therewith; while they decked their hair, and put on women's garments, and were besmeared over with ointments; and that they might appear very comely, they had paints under their eyes, and imitated not only the ornaments, but also the lusts of women, and were guilty of such intolerable uncleanness, that they invented unlawful pleasures of that sort. And thus did they roll themselves up and down the city, as in a brothel-house, and defiled it entirely with their impure actions; nay, while their faces looked like the faces of women, they killed with their right hands; and when their gait was effeminate, they presently attacked men, and became warriors, and drew their swords from under their finely dyed cloaks, and ran every body through whom they alighted upon. Josephus 4.6.10 [quote]



Rev 9:9 They had breastplates, like breastplates of iron. The sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, or of many horses rushing to war.

Rev 9:10 They have tails like those of scorpions, and stings. In their tails they have power to harm men for five months.



They like breastplates of iron and, the beating of their wings and rushing to war; this is another one where the imagery is fuzzy, but this could mean that they are different from natural locust where natural locust can be killed or destroyed these are not and are defended, and able to resist the powers of men, their ablity to be sent away but return with reinforcements, Jesus spoke of the determination of demons in Matthew 12.42-45



Mat 12:43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passes through waterless places, seeking rest, and doesn't find it.

Mat 12:44 Then he says, 'I will return into my house from which I came out,' and when he has come back, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.

Mat 12:45 Then he goes, and takes with himself seven other spirits more evil than he is, and they enter in and dwell there. The last state of that man becomes worse than the first. Even so will it be also to this evil generation."



The five months is the “short” time they were allowed to have this authority, so they could not continue to cause terror and posses those in the land after the siege.



Rev 9:11 They have over them as king the angel of the abyss. His name in Hebrew is "Abaddon," but in Greek, he has the name "Apollyon."

Rev 9:12 The first woe is past. Behold, there are still two woes coming after this.





They have a King Satan as demons they are subject to Satan . The Greek and Hebrew name literally means “Destroyer”. Jesus description of his is very apt in John 8.44

Joh 8:44 You are of your Father, the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn't stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and the father of it.



:studyhound:

[anthrogirl]

Great work SH!

anthrogirl

[studyhound]

:bump:

[Dave G]

good jorb! :thumb:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

good jorb! :thumb:
I agree. Excelent Job. You shouldn't have to bump such an excelent thread. So I made it a "sticky thread".

It's good to be the mod. :grin:

[Xavier]

Thanks :faramir:...

I'll ge on this tomorrow I think :sh:... I've got power issues in my dorm, and no internet access... :frown:

[studyhound]

I agree. Excelent Job. You shouldn't have to bump such an excelent thread. So I made it a "sticky thread".

It's good to be the mod. :grin:
You rock!!! :headbang:

I am so humbled that the Lord is using me this way. & Thank you to evrey one for their kind words and support.

I sorry about the delay but my Laptops power cord died and I lost some of my chapter nine notes and writings so I am on my slow desktop and trying God willing to have Chapter 9 out in the next few days. :pray:

:studyhound:

[Xavier]

Ka :bump:....

Got some more for us :sh:????

[studyhound]

Please for give the long delay I was unexpected delay but work has put an unreasonable amount of work on my plate, so other areas have suffered. I can make no promise for the future that will improve.


Rev 9:13 The sixth angel sounded. I heard a voice from the horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 saying to the sixth angel who had one trumpet, "Free the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates!"

Rev 9:15 The four angels were freed who had been prepared for that hour and day and month and year, so that they might kill one third of mankind.

Rev 9:16 The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million. I heard the number of them.

Rev 9:17 Thus I saw the horses in the vision, and those who sat on them, having breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of lions. Out of their mouths proceed fire, smoke, and sulfur.

Rev 9:18 By these three plagues were one third of mankind killed: by the fire, the smoke, and the sulfur, which proceeded out of their mouths.

Rev 9:19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths, and in their tails. For their tails are like serpents, and have heads, and with them they harm.



With the sounding of the sixth angel, but a voice comes forth and releases the four angels that were bound at the Euphrates river. These angels were bound for the hour to kill a third of mankind. Only one problem verse 16-21goes in to the description of those who would do the killing, and it is a two hundred million Horse army.



So is it four angels or two hundred million? Well it is both and neither, the symbolism of the two points is there is to give a full description. (Note: I am sure there might be a numerological point to the four I just kind of rusty in Jewish numerology) Angels are messengers, and they can be messengers for any number of reasons, judgment, proclamation of good tidings. Also messengers/Angels can either be heavenly or earthly. To make this point clear of the size of the army in the Last US census the estimated population of the USA was over 250 million. So the army was nearly the size of US.



The most common objection I have heard is that the number is specific so it must be the literal number. In apocalyptic literature hyperbole were common, over stating the point to make the point. Also God in the OT and Jesus in the NT were often using hyperboles to make points.



This army also seems to be a further fulfillment of duet. 28.49-52. A large foreign army, who’s symbol is the eagle. The roman eagle was used on every thing from the army’s banners to their coins to the seals. The Romans had a large contingent of soldiers “near Euphrates”. Josephus tells us this here:





And when he had staid three days among the principal commanders, and so long feasted with them, he sent away the rest of his army to the several places where they would be every one best situated; but permitted the tenth legion to stay, as a guard at Jerusalem, and did not send them away beyond Euphrates, where they had been before. And as he remembered that the twelfth legion had given way to the Jews, under Cestius their general, he expelled them out of all Syria, for they had lain formerly at Raphanea, and sent them away to a place called Meletine, near Euphrates, which is in the limits of Armenia and Cappadocia; he also thought fit that two of the legions should stay with him till he should go to Egypt. He then went down with his army to that Cesarea, which lay by the seaside, and there laid up the rest of his spoils in great quantities, and gave order that the captives should he kept there; for the winter season hindered him then from sailing into Italy. (Josephus 7.1.3)



Rev 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, didn't repent of the works of their hands, that they wouldn't worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk.

Rev 9:21 They didn't repent of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their sexual immorality, nor of their thefts.



Incredibility even after all the events proceeding, including, and after the war with Rome we see the Jews still refusing to repent of their sins. They compounded their sins with more sins.

3. And now the commanders joined in their approbation of what Vespasian had said, and it was soon discovered how wise an opinion he had given. And indeed many there were of the Jews that deserted every day, and fled away from the zealots, although their flight was very difficult, since they had guarded every passage out of the city, and slew every one that was caught at them, as taking it for granted they were going over to the Romans; yet did he who gave them money get clear off, while he only that gave them none was voted a traitor. So the upshot was this, that the rich purchased their flight by money, while no