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37818
04-19-2014, 08:54 AM
"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" -- Mark 14:12.

According to the Jewish calendar the Passover meal is eaten the evening of the 15th of Nisan

In 30 A.D. Jewish calendar 3790 the Passover would have been eaten Wednesday evening.
In 33 A.D. Jewish calendar 3793 the Passover would have been eaten Friday evening.

Obsidian
04-19-2014, 11:11 AM
It seems like "Wednesday evening" for a Jew would probably be considered Tuesday evening for us.

37818
04-19-2014, 01:55 PM
It seems like "Wednesday evening" for a Jew would probably be considered Tuesday evening for us.Yes, the Jewish day begins the evening before the day. So the 15th of Nisan on the 5th day being our Thursday would begin the evening of our Wednesday. According to the modern Jewish calendar calculations the 15th of Nisan never falls on a Monday, Wednesday or a Friday. But only on Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday and the Sabbath our Saturday (1st day, 3rd day, 5th day and 7th day).

Obsidian
04-19-2014, 04:21 PM
Then I don't understand why you voted for Wednesday night if you agree with me that the correct time would be Tuesday night.

37818
04-19-2014, 07:15 PM
Then I don't understand why you voted for Wednesday night if you agree with me that the correct time would be Tuesday night.
What I agreed with was the Jewish day on a Wednesday would begin Tuesday evening.
The 15th of Nisan fell on a Thursday.
Its evening was on Wednesday. The 15th of Nisan is not to fall on the even days Monday, Wednesday or Friday (2nd, 4th or 6th day).

Thoughtful Monk
04-19-2014, 07:52 PM
For me, the important point is they gathered and ate and Jesus gave the teachings of the night. Determining the precise year, day, and day of the week seems to be a distraction from the importance of the event.

Truthseeker
04-19-2014, 08:01 PM
For me, the important point is they gathered and ate and Jesus gave the teachings of the night. Determining the precise year, day, and day of the week seems to be a distraction from the importance of the event.The Bible is supposed to be inerrant and that claim is being attacked. So we need to make sure of our facts when defending that.

Obsidian
04-19-2014, 10:10 PM
The 15th of Nisan fell on a Thursday.
Its evening was on Wednesday. The 15th of Nisan is not to fall on the even days Monday, Wednesday or Friday (2nd, 4th or 6th day).

The Passover occurs on the 14th day. This would be Tuesday night. Then Jesus the real lamb of God would also be killed later on the 14th (Wednesday afternoon).

Exodus 12:18-19
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.

Joshua 5:10-11
And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day.

Ezekiel 45:21
In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

Note: Some sources say that the Passover is eight days, but the Bible seems to contradict this doctrine. Most likely, the eighth day or 21st of Nisan is the point at which they were allowed to eat regular bread again.

Catholicity
04-20-2014, 12:11 PM
:doh: I don't defend 100 percent innerrency I do defend accuracy. The account of Scripture is accurate. So, Tuesday at sundown or Wednesday at sundown, Jesus arose from the grave. I'm happy. the end.

Truthseeker
04-20-2014, 01:27 PM
Would a skeptic be quiet after getting an answer of "Tuesday or Wednesday, who cares"?

Thoughtful Monk
04-20-2014, 04:10 PM
Would a skeptic be quiet after getting an answer of "Tuesday or Wednesday, who cares"?

If the skeptic is arguing over precisely when an event occurred and not the bigger issues, I would wonder if he is just grasping for a reason not to believe. There are many events once you got further back than say 400 years, that can not be precisely dated but no one doubts they happened.

Catholicity
04-20-2014, 05:30 PM
I give TM an AMEN! The account is accurate. That doesn't mean it must be precise. It's telling the truth.

Truthseeker
04-20-2014, 05:50 PM
I guess TM and Cathy gave good answers, but I wonder about the best way to help the skeptic. And maybe in trying to determine what the best date is, we might learn more about the events in the Bible.

robrecht
04-20-2014, 05:55 PM
We simply do not know. Happy Easter!

Chrawnus
04-20-2014, 05:59 PM
I guess TM and Cathy gave good answers, but I wonder about the best way to help the skeptic. And maybe in trying to determine what the best date is, we might learn more about the events in the Bible.

Before trying to determine the date of the Passover meal (or the resurrection) you'd better determine whether or not the Bible is even precise enough for you to make a judgement one way or the other. :shrug:

Truthseeker
04-20-2014, 06:32 PM
Before trying to determine the date of the Passover meal (or the resurrection) you'd better determine whether or not the Bible has enough detailis even precise enough for you to make a judgement one way or the other. :shrug:

OK. I wonder, what is your reason to subscribe to this thread?

37818
04-20-2014, 06:58 PM
The Passover occurs on the 14th day. This would be Tuesday night. Then Jesus the real lamb of God would also be killed later on the 14th (Wednesday afternoon).

Exodus 12:18-19
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.

Joshua 5:10-11
And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day.

Ezekiel 45:21
In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

Note: Some sources say that the Passover is eight days, but the Bible seems to contradict this doctrine. Most likely, the eighth day or 21st of Nisan is the point at which they were allowed to eat regular bread again.Thank you.

There are three interpretations as to the poll. Your presentation is very good to say the least (Wednesday day being the 14th of Nisan). For the Wednesday crucifixion view. In 33 AD the 14th of Nisan is on the Friday (tradition). It is my understanding the Passover day 14th of Nisan (Mark 14:12). Is followed by the 7 day feast of unleavened bread, the 15th through the 21st. It was also called the Passover (Luke 22:1). And the 14th and the 15th through 21st makes the 8 days. Modern Jews Passover begins on the 15th of Nisan, which is marked on some calendars as the first day of Passover. And the Jewish observance begins the evening before (compare Mark 14:17, 18). The Jewish days begin on the evening before the day.

I am of the persuasion that the crucifixion was on the Thursday. (These views are secondary issues. But they are if interest.) For my self, my personal discovery of this view was in about 1969. My question then was, was it the (traditional) Friday or Wednesday? Mark 14:12 identified as the 14th of Nisan. And the following evening (Mark 14:17) marked the beginning of the 15th of Nisan. Mark 15:42, "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, . . ." marked the beginning of the Preparation, making the next day Friday it being before the Sabbath. Of course there is more to this.

Chrawnus
04-20-2014, 07:34 PM
OK. I wonder, what is your reason to subscribe to this thread?

I'm mildly interested in the topic. :shrug:

ETA: I have to ask though, why edit my quote?

Obsidian
04-20-2014, 08:18 PM
Mark 14:12 identified as the 14th of Nisan. And the following evening (Mark 14:17) marked the beginning of the 15th of Nisan. Mark 15:42, "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, . . ." marked the beginning of the Preparation, making the next day Friday it being before the Sabbath. Of course there is more to this.

I think your theory has more problems than mine. First, it seemingly makes Jesus eat the Passover on the wrong day (the 15th) in violation of the law. Second, it would make the crucifixion occur on the 15th which was supposed to be a sabbath. While the Jews were not opposed to murder, they would have certainly abhored to do it on a sabbath.

The more reasonable explanations are that Mark 14:12 either:
1) Refers to Tuesday evening as the time when the animal was killed, or
2) Uses a gentile timing system, and merely calls Tuesday day (the 13th) as part of the same day as Tuesday night (the 14th).

Truthseeker
04-21-2014, 11:33 AM
I'm mildly interested in the topic. :shrug:

ETA: I have to ask though, why edit my quote?I made a mistake. I should have written "details" instead of just "detail." It's not just being precise, it's having enough details to help us understand what really happened. eta I'm funny that way--don't mind me too much.

37818
04-21-2014, 12:06 PM
I think your theory has more problems than mine. First, it seemingly makes Jesus eat the Passover on the wrong day (the 15th) in violation of the law. Second, it would make the crucifixion occur on the 15th which was supposed to be a sabbath. While the Jews were not opposed to murder, they would have certainly abhored to do it on a sabbath.

The more reasonable explanations are that Mark 14:12 either:
1) Refers to Tuesday evening as the time when the animal was killed, or
2) Uses a gentile timing system, and merely calls Tuesday day (the 13th) as part of the same day as Tuesday night (the 14th).

The Friday tradition also wants to make Mark 14:12 the 13th of Nisan.
"The time was about six o'clock in the morning on the Friday of the Passover festival. Pilate said to the Jews, 'Look, here's your king!'" -- John 19:14., GOD'S WORDŽ Translation.

In 33 AD the 14th of Nisan fell on a Friday. With that interpretation Jesus would have eaten the Passover the Thursday evening.

The sin offering was made on the first day of feast , the 15th of Nisan (Numbers 28:21, 22). And by Jesus' day 7 such offerings were being made during the week (Ezekiel 45:22, 23). Each day was a "preparation" (v.22, 24). Besides the 7 lambs according to the Law (Numbers 28:21).

Thoughtful Monk
04-21-2014, 03:58 PM
I guess TM and Cathy gave good answers, but I wonder about the best way to help the skeptic. And maybe in trying to determine what the best date is, we might learn more about the events in the Bible.

I guess the best way to help the skeptic is to get to understand where he is coming from and what type of skeptic is he. If he is a genuine skeptic, help him to work through his issue and never belittle his point of view. Probably nothing is harder than convincing someone the truth after he's been called stupid.

If he is skeptic that will refuse to believe, place him in God's inbox, pray for him, and move on.

Doing this takes some discernment and patience for the skeptic to reveal what type he is.

Obsidian
04-21-2014, 07:39 PM
The sin offering was made on the first day of feast , the 15th of Nisan (Numbers 28:21, 22). And by Jesus' day 7 such offerings were being made during the week (Ezekiel 45:22, 23). Each day was a "preparation" (v.22, 24). Besides the 7 lambs according to the Law (Numbers 28:21).

All sacrifices were "sin offerings" in one way or another. Anyway, that is beside the point. Your interpretation would have the Jews killing Jesus in violation of the sabbath. That is unrealistic. And it is contrary to this verse:

John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

The worry seems to have been that the sabbath was about to begin. The sabbath refers to the 15th.

As best I can tell, on the 14th they were supposed to eat one lamb. On the other days they were supposed to kill 7 animals for each day.

37818
04-22-2014, 02:05 PM
All sacrifices were "sin offerings" in one way or another. Anyway, that is beside the point. Your interpretation would have the Jews killing Jesus in violation of the sabbath. That is unrealistic. And it is contrary to this verse:

John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

The worry seems to have been that the sabbath was about to begin. The sabbath refers to the 15th.

As best I can tell, on the 14th they were supposed to eat one lamb. On the other days they were supposed to kill 7 animals for each day.

It has been my understanding that following evening after Christ died was the beginning of the Preparation, the day before the Sabbath. (Mark 15:42).


As it was, it is my understanding Jesus' arrest and trial was illegal.

http://livingtheway.org/jesustrial.html

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm

Obsidian
04-22-2014, 06:35 PM
Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath...

I don't know why you cite this verse. It proves that Jesus was killed on the 14th (and/or on a Friday).

37818
04-23-2014, 12:14 PM
Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath...

I don't know why you cite this verse. It proves that Jesus was killed on the 14th (and/or on a Friday).

There are two ways to understand this. The traditional interpretation. Which you have just defended. Actually supporting the disciples eating the Passover the afternoon of the 13th before sunset and beginning of 14th of Nisan.

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" -- Mark 14:12. Denying that this is the 14th of Nisan.

"And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. . . . "-- Mark 14:17.Denying this is the evening prior to the day of the 15th of Nisan.


"And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, . . ." -- Mark 15:42.Interpreting that this is the afternoon (not after sunset, the beginning) of the Preparation day, the day before the 7th day Sabbath.

The Hebrew transliterated into Greek as "Sabbath" means in the Hebrew a Rest observed on the 7th day. And the Koine Greek usage refers to the 7th day, and so its plural is translated as to mean a "week." (This is unique to the NT Greek text usage.)

The second (not common) way, that those "evenings" were at "sunset" and the start of the next Jewish day. Mark 14:12 being the 14th of Nisan.

Obsidian
04-23-2014, 01:04 PM
Mark's language might just be imprecise both times.

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover" might mean --> Tuesday, the Passover

"And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath" might mean --> Wednesday, the day before the Thursday Sabbath. We could interpret it literally, to mean that evening already came and Joseph of Arimethea was an hour or two late when getting the body into the ground. Or we could interpret it to mean something like "The evening was fast approaching."

If the verse were saying that "The evening was come, making this the start of the 14th," then the verse would have no meaning because that would mean that Joseph had a full 24 hours to get the body into the ground, and there wouldn't be any hurry at all. The sabbath started on the 15th, by law.

And I still think it is ridiculous to argue that Pharisees would murder a man on the sabbath.

Truthseeker
04-23-2014, 01:43 PM
I am confused. A reason is that every sunset is the end of the old day and the start of the new day. In any case I realize now that "evening" does not necessarily mean "sunset"; it could mean either before or after. When the day is old or when it is new. I tried to make a timeline following modern convention, but I got stuck in the mud.

37818
04-23-2014, 02:02 PM
I am confused. A reason is that every sunset is the end of the old day and the start of the new day. In any case I realize now that "evening" does not necessarily mean "sunset"; it could mean either before or after. When the day is old or when it is new. I tried to make a timeline following modern convention, but I got stuck in the mud.

The Greek word translated "evening" can mean "late afternoon." The Greek word means "late." So it can also be the beginning of night as translated "evening."

"And at even, when the sun did set, . . ." -- Mark 1:32.
"And the same day, when the even was come, . . ." -- Mark 4:35.

Even so after the evening, when the sun sets is always the beginning of the next Jewish day.

So no matter what, Mark 14:12 being the 14th of Nissan, Mark 14:17 indicates, in my understanding, Jesus and His disciples age the traditional Passover the evening of the 15th of Nisan just as Jews do today.

Obsidian
04-23-2014, 02:13 PM
Then why was Joseph of Arimathea concerned about leaving the body unburied, if the sabbath was already past?

Truthseeker
04-23-2014, 05:15 PM
OK. The request made by Joseph of Arimathea must have been made in the few hours (maybe less than 9 hours) before the beginning of the Sabbath. Is that right, O Enumbered Avatar? The same day of the request must also be the day Jesus Christ died, as the Jews number the days.

Obsidian
04-23-2014, 09:45 PM
Less than 3 hours before the sabbath

37818
04-24-2014, 09:04 AM
OK. The request made by Joseph of Arimathea must have been made in the few hours (maybe less than 9 hours) before the beginning of the Sabbath. Is that right, O Enumbered Avatar? The same day of the request must also be the day Jesus Christ died, as the Jews number the days.


Less than 3 hours before the sabbath

". . . And, behold, [there was] a man named Joseph, a counsellor; [and he was] a good man, and a just: (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) [he was] of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. " -- Luke 23:50-56.

Based on the tradition that the day of the crucifixion was the day before the Sabbath, the women had less that a few hours to prepare the spices and ointments. [Not enough time to do it.]

My understanding the body was take down the evening after sunset (Mark 15:42) the beginning of the day before the weekly sabbath. Where the women had all that day to prepare spices and ointments.

Truthseeker
04-24-2014, 11:47 AM
". . . And, behold, [there was] a man named Joseph, a counsellor; [and he was] a good man, and a just: (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) [he was] of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. " -- Luke 23:50-56.

Based on the tradition that the day of the crucifixion was the day before the Sabbath, the women had less that a few hours to prepare the spices and ointments. [Not enough time to do it.]

My understanding the body was take down the evening after sunset (Mark 15:42) the beginning of the day before the weekly sabbath. Where the women had all that day to prepare spices and ointments.You're right! Jesus' body must have been taken sometime after the starting evening of the day before the Sabbath, possibly less than 5 hours after then. The Preparation Day was the day of burial, the Sabbath right after was the first day after the day of burial. Then Sunday was the second and final day after the day of burial [Mark 16:1]. Three days of burial. Easter.

The 30 A.D. timeframe fits, but not the 33
A.D. one (not enough time).

37818
04-24-2014, 12:02 PM
You're right! Jesus' body must have been taken sometime after the starting evening of the day before the Sabbath, possibly less than 5 hours after then. The Preparation Day was the day of burial, the Sabbath right after was the first day after the day of burial. Then Sunday was the second and final day after the day of burial [Mark 16:1]. Three days of burial. Easter.

The 30 A.D. timeframe fits, but not the 33
A.D. one (not enough time).

Furthermore:
". . . and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done." -- Luke 24;21. ". . . the third day since" was the first day of the week, our Sunday. The second day since was the Sabbath, our Saturday. And the first day since was the day of Preparation our Friday. Making the day our Thursday. Being placed in the tomb after sun set. We count night, day, night, day, night, the morning of the day. (Matthew 12:40.) Thursday evening to Sunday morning.

Obsidian
04-25-2014, 12:37 AM
37818, your theory is pretty much incoherent. The Bible says that the preparation was for a high sabbath, not just a regular sabbath. Saturday in AD 30 was not a high sabbath. Thursday was.

37818
04-25-2014, 09:02 AM
37818, your theory is pretty much incoherent. The Bible says that the preparation was for a high sabbath, not just a regular sabbath. Saturday in AD 30 was not a high sabbath. Thursday was.

It is not incoherent, it is not mere theory, it is the history - which is not commonly acknowledged.

There are few things that need to be shown.
1) That Mark 13:12 in fact refers to Nisan 13th. (Typically the argument is driven by the conclusion!)
2) That there is not a difference between the holy convocation where no service work is to be done and the Sabbath where no work is to be done.
3) Show that the term "Sabbath" was used of the !5th of Nisan Biblically. (This being an argument for the Wednesday crucifixion view.)

Truthseeker
04-25-2014, 02:22 PM
With all of that said, it must be noted that the day of the week is not something we know from Scripture. If God wanted us to know whether it was Wednesday, Thursday or Friday, it would have been clearly stated.

37818
04-26-2014, 09:02 AM
With all of that said, it must be noted that the day of the week is not something we know from Scripture. If God wanted us to know whether it was Wednesday, Thursday or Friday, it would have been clearly stated.Well that is simply not true. And bad exegesis.

". . . it would have clearly stated." Such an argument negates essential truths. The trinity. No where does it say "God is a Trinity." The deity of Christ. No where does it say, "Jesus is God." The eternal Sonship of Christ. No where does it say "eternal Son."

The word of God is clear as to the day Christ died according to the Jewish calendar. "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" -- Mark 14:12 (see Exodus 12:6, 18). ". . . And in the evening he cometh with the twelve." -- Mark 14:17. So the following day Jesus was crucified. We have a day according to the Jewish calendar.

". . . crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. " -- Luke 24:20, 21.

That day was a Sunday, being "the third day"
The second day was a Saturday, the Sabbath.
The first day "since" was Friday.

This eliminates Wednesday easily.

Obsidian
04-26-2014, 02:27 PM
Buried Wednesday afternoon/night (Day 0); Thursday night (Day 1); (Friday night (Day 2); Saturday night (Day 3)

Saturday night the sabbath is over. Considered to be Sunday.


The word of God is clear as to the day Christ died according to the Jewish calendar. "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" -- Mark 14:12 (see Exodus 12:6, 18).

Exodus 12:6, 12:18
And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
. . . .
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

The evening of the fourteenth was Tuesday night.

Bringing up the fact that it was "the first day of unleavened bread when they killed the Passover" is a summary. It's like saying that in the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth. It doesn't necessarily mean that God made the earth all on the first day. It's an introductory preview. Mark was saying that the evening was coming to kill the Passover and eat it, and the disciples asked him questions about that. Why in the world would they kill the Passover 24 hours before eating it? It wouldn't be as fresh.

Truthseeker
04-26-2014, 04:53 PM
No, Obsidan, you are skipping partial days in counting the days; while the Bible, at least the NT, clearly does count the partial days, as the Enumerated Avatar showed.

BTW, I see I made a mistake a while ago, in a previous post. If the Enumerated Avatar is correct about the Jewish years, then the Jewish year 3793 is the year of the Crucifixion.

37818
04-26-2014, 06:22 PM
Buried Wednesday afternoon/night (Day 0); Thursday night (Day 1); (Friday night (Day 2); Saturday night (Day 3)

Saturday night the sabbath is over. Considered to be Sunday.



Exodus 12:6, 12:18
And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
. . . .
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

The evening of the fourteenth was Tuesday night.

Bringing up the fact that it was "the first day of unleavened bread when they killed the Passover" is a summary. It's like saying that in the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth. It doesn't necessarily mean that God made the earth all on the first day. It's an introductory preview. Mark was saying that the evening was coming to kill the Passover and eat it, and the disciples asked him questions about that. Why in the world would they kill the Passover 24 hours before eating it? It wouldn't be as fresh. The unleavened bread is to begin the evening prior to the day. The evening following 14th the Passover is eaten the evening of the 15th. Just as orthodox Jews do it today.

Yes, the 14th of Nisan began Tuesday evening in 30 AD, Jewish calendar year 3790.

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" -- Mark 14:12.

That day was then the 14th of Nisan. Wednesday 30 AD.

". . . And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. . . ." -- Mark 14:17. That was that very following Wednesday evening.


Now back to the day of the first day of the week,
". . . have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done." -- Luke 24:20, 21.

Wednesday Mark 14:12, ". . . Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?"
Wednesday, evening they eat the Passover meal.
Thursday ". . . have crucified him."
Friday, first day after.
Saturday, Sabbath, second day after.
Sunday third day after.

__________________________________________________ ____________

Provide proof that ". . . the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . ." was on the 13th of Nisan. Both the Wednesday and the traditional view must contend this.

Obsidian
04-26-2014, 06:34 PM
You are taking the uninspired statement of these people so rigidly that it undermines the inspired statements elsewhere. Anyway, if we assume that they were counting from the burial (right around the start of Thursday) and then running until the time when the body went missing ("very early in the morning" on the "first day"), that makes three days.

37818
04-28-2014, 09:06 AM
:doh: I don't defend 100 percent innerrency I do defend accuracy. The account of Scripture is accurate. So, Tuesday at sundown or Wednesday at sundown, Jesus arose from the grave. I'm happy. the end.


You are taking the uninspired statement of these people so rigidly that it undermines the inspired statements elsewhere. Anyway, if we assume that they were counting from the burial (right around the start of Thursday) and then running until the time when the body went missing ("very early in the morning" on the "first day"), that makes three days.

The view I came to is based on, what I could derive from Holy Scripture. And the Jewish reckoning of their days beginning at sunset, the evening. (ref Mark 14:12, 17 & Mark 15:42. The rest, the Jewish calendar 3790, Matthew 12:40 and Luke 24:21, John 12:1-12, agreed with it.) (Again interpretation on this are of secondary import).

Truthseeker
04-28-2014, 10:34 AM
John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

The worry seems to have been that the sabbath was about to begin. The sabbath refers to the 15th.

As best I can tell, on the 14th they were supposed to eat one lamb. On the other days they were supposed to kill 7 animals for each day.Here is a key to solving the puzzle. For argument's sake, forget the calendar dates. The Jews wanted Jesus to die and his body taken down before the beginning of the First Day of the Unleavened Bread. That is a High Sabbath. Not necessarily also a weekly Sabbath (though I think in this case it does happen to be a weekly Sabbath also, as I hope to show later). We have to surmise that, because of the haste that the Jews were shown to act in, Jesus did die on the day just before the First Day of Matzo, i.e., the Passover Day. Jesus didn't actually eat the Passover meal! He was dead then. Sure, there are some verses that seems to show that Jesus expected to eat that; let me deal with them later, please. After all, he is supposed to be the sacrifical Lamb; what more appropriate day for his death than a Passover Day?

I pause here to see if there is any dissent.

37818
04-28-2014, 12:15 PM
Here is a key to solving the puzzle. For argument's sake, forget the calendar dates. The Jews wanted Jesus to die and his body taken down before the beginning of the First Day of the Unleavened Bread. That is a High Sabbath. Not necessarily also a weekly Sabbath (though I think in this case it does happen to be a weekly Sabbath also, as I hope to show later). We have to surmise that, because of the haste that the Jews were shown to act in, Jesus did die on the day just before the First Day of Matzo, i.e., the Passover Day. Jesus didn't actually eat the Passover meal! He was dead then. Sure, there are some verses that seems to show that Jesus expected to eat that; let me deal with them later, please. After all, he is supposed to be the sacrifical Lamb; what more appropriate day for his death than a Passover Day?

I pause here to see if there is any dissent.

That is fine. But the first day of unleavened bread was Mark 14:12. Jesus and His disciples eat the Passover after sunset of the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:17). Jesus was crucified by the Roman government. Because it was the 15th if Nisan a holy convocation where only no servile work can be done (Numbers 28:18; Exodus 12:16 explains what that means). Joseph of Arimathaea would not have asked for the bodies until after sundown (Mark 15:42, 43). And they only had that day to place Jesus in the tomb before the 7th day Sabbath (a full rest) that followed.

Truthseeker
04-28-2014, 08:52 PM
But the first day of unleavened bread was Mark 14:12.Now let's be careful. Let's look at this Exodus passage http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0212.htm#3 and bear in mind the passage probably follows the Jewish counting of days. So, the Passover lambs are killed in the night and consumed before the morning of 14 Nisan. Another thing I think is that Jews often refer to the Passover day as the first day of the Feast of Matzos.
Jesus and His disciples eat the Passover after sunset of the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:17).I believe you are in error here. What the group is then eating is not the Passover seder. I admit to being mistaken that Jesus never ate the Passover; he did eat that earlier.
Because it was the 15th if Nisan a holy convocation where only no servile work can be done (Numbers 28:18; Exodus 12:16 explains what that means). Joseph of Arimathaea would not have asked for the bodies until after sundown (Mark 15:42, 43). And they only had that day to place Jesus in the tomb before the 7th day Sabbath (a full rest) that followed.
I am puzzled, unless there was a day before Saturday (as the Jews count the days) in which Jesus was buried, i.e., 15 Nisan is actually Thursday, and 17 Nisan is Saturday.

37818
04-29-2014, 09:01 AM
Now let's be careful. Let's look at this Exodus passage http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0212.htm#3 and bear in mind the passage probably follows the Jewish counting of days. So, the Passover lambs are killed in the night and consumed before the morning of 14 Nisan. No, it was consumed before the morning of the 15th!




Another thing I think is that Jews often refer to the Passover day as the first day of the Feast of Matzos. I believe you are in error here. What the group is then eating is not the Passover seder. I admit to being mistaken that Jesus never ate the Passover; he did eat that earlier.This is a special pleading. Not in evidence. The NT text says Jesus and His disciples eat the Passover. (Mark 14:12-17, . . .)


I am puzzled, unless there was a day before Saturday (as the Jews count the days) in which Jesus was buried, i.e., 15 Nisan is actually Thursday, and 17 Nisan is Saturday.It is my understanding, Jesus was placed in the tomb Thursday evening the 16th of Nisan. And the women had all that day (Friday) to prepare.

Truthseeker
04-29-2014, 10:50 AM
No, it was consumed before the morning of the 15th! This is after the Passover Day (14th of Nisan, as the Jews count the days)? I did read something to the effect that there can be 2 days of consuming the Passover meals. That is puzzling to me.
Perhaps you can explain.

37818
04-29-2014, 12:19 PM
This is after the Passover Day (14th of Nisan, as the Jews count the days)? I did read something to the effect that there can be 2 days of consuming the Passover meals. That is puzzling to me.
Perhaps you can explain.Here is a link to a modern Jewish translation of the text Exodus 12:

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873/jewish/Chapter-12.htm

The historical observance was from the late afternoon of the 14th to the morning of the 15th where none of the Passover lamb was to remain. So typically today modern Jews who observe the Passover, from the evening (sunset) beginning of the 15th, the following calendar day being the 15th is the Passover marked on modern calendars. This is my understanding.

I do not know where two days come from.

Truthseeker
04-29-2014, 02:04 PM
I do not know where two days come from.Thank you. Readers will please excuse my faulty memory and poor reading.

So actually two days are involved: From late afternoon of the 14th to the morning of the 15th. I incorrectly assumed only one day could be involved as far as the Passover seder is concerned. Sorry.

37818
04-30-2014, 09:02 AM
Thank you. Readers will please excuse my faulty memory and poor reading.

So actually two days are involved: From late afternoon of the 14th to the morning of the 15th. I incorrectly assumed only one day could be involved as far as the Passover seder is concerned. Sorry.OK. There is dispute as to the timing of the "evening" referred to of the 14th of Nisan (Exodus 12:6).

Here is one commentary:
Until the fourteenth day - It should be observed that the offering of our Lord on the self-same day is an important point in determining the typical character of the transaction. A remarkable passage in the Talmud says: "It was a famous and old opinion among the ancient Jews that the day of the new year which was the beginning of the Israelites' deliverance out of Egypt should in future time be the beginning of the redemption by the Messiah."

In the evening - The Hebrew has between the two evenings. The meaning of the expression is disputed. The most probable explanation is that it includes the time from afternoon, or early eventide, until sunset. This accords with the ancient custom of the Hebrews, who killed the paschal lamb immediately after the offering of the daily sacrifice, which on the day of the Passover took place a little earlier than usual, between two and three p.m. This would allow about two hours and a half for slaying and preparing all the lambs. It is clear that they would not wait until sunset, at which time the evening meal would take place. The slaying of the lamb thus coincides exactly with the death of our Saviour, at the ninth hour of the day Mat 27:46.

His interpretation and conclusion is in agreement with common tradition.

It is, as I have repeated, my understanding that Jesus and His disciple eat that Passover on the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:12-17, . . .). Jesus being crucified on the 15th of Nisan. Which cannot fall on even days of the week, not 2nd, 4th or 6th day of the week.

Obsidian
04-30-2014, 03:36 PM
No, it was consumed before the morning of the 15th!

Exodus 12:6
And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.


That is fine. But the first day of unleavened bread was Mark 14:12.

Mark 14:12
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

And this is why I say that your position is incoherent. It sure seems like you keep changing it.


It is my understanding, Jesus was placed in the tomb Thursday evening the 16th of Nisan. And the women had all that day (Friday) to prepare.

Then what sabbath were they concerned about, with regard to leaving his body up?

Truthseeker
04-30-2014, 07:42 PM
Then what sabbath were they concerned about, with regard to leaving his body up?

In post #47 http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?1711-Jesus-and-His-disciples-ate-the-Passover-when&p=49383&viewfull=1#post49383 I said that the Passover Day was Wednesday. Next day was Thursday, the start of the Feast of Matzos, a High Sabbath. Friday was the day they buried Jesus. So Saturday is the answer; it is a weekly Sabbath. Note that it were Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea who prepared Jesus' body in spices and linen cloths, according to John. I will have to study what the women who went to the tomb Sunday wanted to do exactly.

37818
05-05-2014, 06:59 PM
No, it was consumed before the morning of the 15th! Exodus 12:6
And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.


And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.

An extra Bibical Jewish source, The Book of Jubilees,
""Remember the commandment which the Lord commanded thee concerning the Passover, that thou shouldst celebrate it in its season on the fourteenth of the first month, that thou shouldst kill it before it is evening, and that they should eat it by night on the evening of the fifteenth from the time of the setting of the sun."
-- Source ("Remember the commandment which the Lord commanded thee concerning the Passover, that thou shouldst celebrate it in its season on the fourteenth of the first month, that thou shouldst kill it before it is evening, and that they should eat it by night on the evening of the fifteenth from the time of the setting of the sun."). About this source: The Jewish Encyclopedia, Jubilees, the book of (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8944-jubilees-book-of).

"And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings." -- Exodus 12:6, John Darby Translation 1884-1890.






That is fine. But the first day of unleavened bread was Mark 14:12.
Mark 14:12
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

And this is why I say that your position is incoherent. It sure seems like you keep changing it. I have not changed my view. You simply choose not to understand it, let alone agree with it. Your agreement is not needed. But if you understood it correctly, I would think you could better present your view. Which is fine by me. My interest is that the readers of this thread can understand why different views on the matter are held. Armed with the facts can make up their own minds.




It is my understanding, Jesus was placed in the tomb Thursday evening the 16th of Nisan. And the women had all that day (Friday) to prepare.
Then what sabbath were they concerned about, with regard to leaving his body up?

The weekly Sabbath that follows the day of Preparation. It is my view the women had all day to prepare the spices and ointments. (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:50-56) As I had explained Jesus being crucified on the 15th of Nisan, they had to wait till sundown to receive the body of Jesus.